Feb 6, 2015
qwk After 2 years of ownership, I have had it. The latest FW causes the car to stop charging every 5 minutes, and I have to unplug and start again. I was wanting to go on a trip, but I guess the usability of the car went to zero.
I just wish that Tesla's software engineers would just stop mucking with stuff that works, and instead focus on things that Tesla promised years ago. What a joke.
This is coming from a guy that absolutely adored the car, up until now. Sad.�
Feb 6, 2015
AMN This sounds like an isolated case... did you talk to Tesla Roadside Assistance?�
Feb 6, 2015
qwk Yes, they are going to pull the logs. This has something to do with the current limit from 40A to 30A when there are voltage fluctuations. They mucked with the algorhythm again. I'm so pissed right now!�
Feb 6, 2015
AMN I once blew a turbo on a one-day-old 911 turbo. It had like 120 miles on it...Does that make you feel better?
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Feb 6, 2015
qwk Not really. This is simply a FW engineering issue, done by choice. After a huge pushback from owners after the same 5.8.4 debacle, I can't believe they were stupid enough to do it again.�
Feb 6, 2015
TexasEV Has this happened when charging at more than one location? With J1772 or supercharger not just with your UMC or HPWC? You've probably thought of this but it's the first step in isolating the problem as it hasn't been reported here before.�
Feb 6, 2015
qwk I live in the middle of nowhere. Nearest Supercharger is about 300 miles away. J1772 or other EV's for that matter, don't exist here. My house only has 120V charging, so I charge on a overbuilt 14-50 at the office. I have put 10MW of power through that outlet into the Model S. Until the latest FW....�
Feb 6, 2015
Cosmacelf So it stops charging, or just reduces charging current? On your 120v circuit or on the nema 14-50?�
Feb 6, 2015
NigelM Mod note: update thread title for clarity and searchability.�
Feb 6, 2015
qwk Both. I only use the 14-50 now.�
Feb 6, 2015
trils0n Have you tried anything to fix this? I had something similar happen after 6.0 upgrade, car would charge for 5 mins then stop. But it turned out I just had to give it the old Nintendo fix (blow dust out of the port and connector). Maybe charge port or connector needs to be cleaned. Worth a shot if you haven't tried it already.�
Feb 6, 2015
qwk Good idea, though it would be a total coincidence that this happened right after new FW.�
Feb 6, 2015
apacheguy Which 6.1 variant are you seeing this behavior on?�
Feb 6, 2015
islandbayy I feel your pain. So far it's just been a software fluke that caused my car to go into "protective Mode" when inserting the j1772 connector, requiring a tow to the service center. The next morning, it released the connector and went back to normal like nothing happened. This was 2 or 3 days after going to 6.1. And last night, after sucking down 30 miles worth of power to travel 12 miles with no heat, I had to stop at a public station to get enough to make it 2 more miles home (I arrived at the station below charge now), the charge port was not cooperating and locked and unlicked the J1772 adapter about 20 times before accepting it. And this was a paid station, somehow I got billed each time the car locked and unlocked the adapter (started and stopped charging) at a rate of $2.50.... but a phone call corrected that problem.�
Feb 6, 2015
jerry33 FWIW, the power in my area isn't the best (it's really worse than that, but this is a family forum). If I charge at 40 amps it almost always drops to 30. This started with the first release that lowered the amps automatically.
However, if the amps are set to 33, there's never a problem, and the charging speed isn't so different that it's noticeably longer than the 40 amp setting (assuming it completes at 40 amps). This works for RV parks too. (Note: I haven't tried anything higher than 33, it could be that 38 is the magic number.)�
Feb 6, 2015
invisik Yeah, try reducing the amps by 5 and then try charging. If still stops reduce by 5 more and try again. You might be able to find a balance between electrical quality and what the car can deal with.�
Feb 6, 2015
Electric700 Oh no, I certainly sympathize with you on this.
It's a great opportunity for Tesla to add a backup feature, so that you can rollback the software if anything goes awry with the new version.�
Feb 6, 2015
Benjamin Brooks I suspect many of these one off problems people see right when they complete a firmware install are more likely firmware upgrade *process* related, rather than wide release (everyone) bugs or individual car hardware issues.
In which case a firmware roll back option / process might even just compound the problem...
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Feb 6, 2015
qwk .115
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The thing is, I paid for 10kw charging, and received it. Now they are taking it back. Not cool.
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The car dealt with 10kw charging for hours on end on that outlet , for a period of two years just fine. There is no need to find any fine spot. Tesla's choice to limit charging current after the fact is the entire problem.
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Yep. I tried and tried to stay on FW5.8 FOREVER, but Tesla would not allow it. That was the most stable firmware I had. Now, with the new FW releases, I get some fluff, but the car is unusable(There is no way in hell I would have bought a Tesla with a 6kw charger).
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There are certainly problems with new firmware(even when only pinged and not loaded), but the issue here is something totally different.�
Feb 6, 2015
TexasEV I don't understand why you are assuming that Tesla chose to limit current or that Tesla did anything or is taking something back. There is a problem with your one car (or perhaps your UMC) that is not generalized over the tens of thousands of cars on 6.1. In fact there are reports that with the latest builds of 6.1 the reduction of current when the car senses a voltage drop is no longer permanent for that session, but rather the car tries to increase the current again.
Something of yours is broken, whether it was caused by 6.1 in your specific car or the timing was just a coincidence, but there is certainly no evidence of a change in 6.1 that impairs charging.�
Feb 6, 2015
wk057 I personally believe the entire "reduce current in response to voltage drop" is something that makes some sense from a safety/liability perspective... but at the same time there NEEDS to be an option to disable this nonsense. If I set the car to charge at X amps, I want the thing to pull X amps at whatever the heck voltage I feed it.
I've noticed more issue with this lately here in my development at night when it gets < 20F. Most homes in my area are electric heat pumps with resistive aux heat. So, at 18F everyone's aux heat is coming on. This makes some pretty good voltage sags shine through for a few moments at times as things on the service side catch up with the load, regardless of what load I have going on. (The graph of voltage I have for the past couple of weeks looks like noise...) Even a temporary dip in voltage is enough to trigger Tesla's annoying charging speed reduction algorithm.
I have, however, never had the car completely refuse to charge or stop charging...
But in any case, they need to have an option to disable this "feature." I don't care if it has to be done at a service center and I have to sign a waiver for them to do it, it needs to be able to be disabled.
Edit: I feel that it is worth pointing out that once the car is up to full amperage, the voltage drops it sees will likely have nothing whatsoever to do with the charging demand. I fail to see how having this algorithm active once the car is up to full power makes much sense. There isn't magically going to be more resistance in the line from car->EVSE->breaker just because the voltage drops from some load elsewhere. If the voltage sags too much an upstream breaker will trip if there is too much load. This.... really isn't the car's problem and it should stay out of it.�
Feb 6, 2015
qwk Ok, bear with me here, as this will be a very long post that I hope Tesla reads, and makes some changes that piss the most loyal customers off. I know I'm not alone here, not by a long shot.
I took delivery on March 15th, 2013. Since I live in the middle of nowhere, I made sure to communicate with my delivery specialist that the UMC HAS to be working when the car gets here, because without it, I would be SOL. He said that he would double and triple check the UMC, to make sure I had zero issues. As you can guess, the UMC was DOA, and my car could not charge. After playing with it to diagnose whether it was the UMC or something else, the 12V died(I put a trickle charger on it to get the car to respond again). The head of the SC at that time wanted to just trailer the car 350+ miles back to Portland(this is a just delivered brand new car mind you), and fix it, but I insisted it was the UMC. Afger a long chat on the phone discussing why it was a bad idea to haul a car over 700 miles RT for a bad UMC, he agreed to send me a different UMC. That fixed the first problem.
A month or so later came a myriad of other problems(not all at the same time) like steering rack click, front control arm rattle, window regulator problems, tire shredding issue, bad chargeport, melted UMC, and a few others. In August, the car was taken to the SC and I got a loaner. This was very acceptable as I got to try out a new P85 for a month or so. The P85 had some of it own share of problems(that's another chapter for a different time).
In the next 4-6 months some of the issues like the steering click came back, and the alignment was still way off(shreads inside of rear tires). A new issue surfaced, which was warped rotors. The car felt like a jalopy with 200+k miles on it. I jad a trip planned that would take me through Portland in August of 2014, so I scheduled a time to get a loaner and get some more of the items fixed. They went ahead and fixed them, but this time, getting the loaner was a bit of a hassle. I specifically requested that I NOT get updated to the new FW(I had 5.8 1.49.24), but got a call back saying it MUST and it WILL get upgraded, because it's a recall FW(any prior FW was recalled). After about 1+ hours on the phone arguing why I did not want ANY new FW, I gave in and that was that. The reason I didn't want new FW, was the charging current being backed off, starting with 5.8.4(there are a ton of threads here on that mess).
I forgot to mention that from delivery to about that last service visit, I had been through abot six UMC's, of which 3 melted. The melting ALWAYS happened at 40A charging , between the adapter an the UMC end, in the summertime. THIS is the real reason that the FW was dialed back, as the UMC is not engineered to handle continuous 40A charging, and instead of swapping out UMC's like mad, Tesla decided to limit the charging everyone paid for. There is no way in hell I would have bought the Model S with a puny 6kw charger on board. 10 kw is fine as that is the max out in the wild for most of America. For those of you that say what is the big deal, try spending 6 hours at an RV park dozens of times, and finding out that the time has now increased 2-3 hours, just because. I suspect one of the problems Tesla employees have is the fact that they are paid so little, they can't afford a Tesla, and have no clue what it's like to live with some of the design things that have taken a turn for the worse.
So to continue on, I headed back home from my Aug 2014 service visit, when an hour down the road, the AC got really wimpy. I was now on FW 5.12. I called the SC, and the tech advised to pull a fuse. This worked initially, but the AC went back to wimpy(was ice cold before the SC visit, amd the new FW). I have done a few hard resets, and it helps, for a while...
So now the car still shreads tires(coil suspension car), and the AC doesn't work. I really hate complaining, and am willing to live with those things, and whatever else crops up, but there is no ***** way on this planet that I will live with not getting the full 40A charging that I paid for(every stinking time). I'm a big boy, and can take responsibility for picking outlets that are safe. I don't need Tesla to dial back the current just because the UMC isn't designed for charging at 40A in the summertime.
I guess the moral of the story is, that Tesla is pretty much doomed if they keep on ******** on their most loyal customers who rant and rave. I kind of feel like a fool for writing such a big check for a car whose features get taken back little by little. After all I have been through with this car(the most problems I have had with a car, and I've had dozens), I still love it. I really wish I could go back to that 5.8 1.49.24 FW(I'm 100% sure that will fix the charging problem), but I already know that won't happen. That would make too much sense. Would I do it again? I'm not so sure anymore. The company has changed so much, and all of it has been for the worse. Anyway, it pains me to have written this, as I really do want Tesla to keep on getting bigger and better, but I really don't see how that is going to possible. They just don't seem to learn, and keep making the same mistakes over and over again.
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See my long winded post. There is nothing wrong with the car, it's all firmware.
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+10000000000
If somebody's garage burns down because of jerry-rigged wiring, its not Tesla's problem. The real problem is blame. Since UMC's melt like marshmallows, they are going to be blamed everytime. To me the solution is simple, too bad that ship sailed a long time ago. Tesla is simply not going to replace 70k UMC's with a more reliable, robust unit.�
Feb 6, 2015
andrewket Perhaps consider an HPWC? I use mine between 40-80a and haven't had a problem since Tesla replaced the fuses in 2013.�
Feb 6, 2015
wk057 qwk stated he uses a 14-50 at a work location, so I don't think a HPWC is an easy option. It also is not legal, per code, to put a 14-50 on a HPWC.�
Feb 6, 2015
Cosmacelf Qwk, you got problems. One of which is your attitude. If all you want to do is complain, well go ahead, but don't expect much help, either from Tesla or from people here. If you actually want to work to find the issues and problems, then stop complaining and start listening to what people on these forums and what Tesla is saying to you.
You've gone through SIX UMCs??? Houston, we have a problem. If your NEMA 14-50 adapters keep melting, then I would say the problem is with your receptacle. If the software keeps dropping charge current that also points to the receptacle.
It was hard to tell in your posts, but do you regularly charge at RV parks? Have you done so recently and had a current drop?
Tesla is saying that they mean to keep people at the latest software revs. You are saying that you don't want that. You either need to accept Tesla's policy, or sell your car.�
Feb 6, 2015
wk057 From your post, basically blaming qwk for his issues, I don't think you understand how the UMC actually works (no offense intended). The voltage drop across the wiring from the UMC plug to the charge connector is going to be the same regardless of how crappy the 14-50 outlet wiring is. So, if the UMC is burning up, it isn't because of bad wiring outside of the UMC. I don't recall qwk saying that his 14-50 outlet melted...
If the 14-50 has crap wiring, that will cause a voltage drop, sure. But this drop is actually fine on the UMC side and causes *less* heat between the outlet and the vehicle. The heat from the voltage drop on the supply wiring will be from the drop between there and wherever the power source is.... not something that can blow up a UMC.
I feel qwk's comments are completely justified given what I've read here.
Edit: Worth noting a bad connection on the outlet would cause more resistance in the plug itself, and thus a higher heat dissipation there under load. Still, this would fry the outlet... not the UMC/14-50 adapter connection.�
Feb 6, 2015
qwk Wow, I don't know where to start. The receptacle is fine. There is less than 3% voltage drop at 40A. You act like I'm the only one having UMC problems. As an engineer, I can assure you the UMC is underbuilt, and it shows. FYI, the hottest point when tested with a heat gun was always the UMC end/Adapter. The outlet barely gets warm. Thanks for pointing the blame on me, and jumping to conclusions.
So let me get this straight, you would write a check for a $100k car and have unresolved issues, over and over again, and just suck it up?
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I thought about it, but it would take too much time, and effort to re-do it.�
Feb 6, 2015
ecarfan FW 6.1 turned my car into useless junk (charging problems)
@qwk, I have no solution to offer, just want to say I understand your frustration, and to point out to others that he is a long time Tesla owner who also owns a Roadster and is certainly well versed in the joys and downsides of EV ownership and Teslas in particular. I hope that Tesla can solve your issue.�
Feb 6, 2015
Cosmacelf I believe the OP said the melting occurred between the adapter and the part of the UMC that plugs into the adapter. The adapter is what plugs in the wall. If the receptacle was getting hot, this heat would get transferred to the adapter.
Another question to ask would be whether or not the OP has replaced his adapters, or just the UMC. But I think I'm outa here since my questions don't get straight answers.�
Feb 6, 2015
qwk Yep, outlet is fine. It barely gets warm. I think the majority of the melting issues is the sunlight hitting the UMC while charging for hours at a time. That elevates the temps too much. I fail to understand how this becoms the customers problem? Are we not supposed to charge while it's hot outside? How hot is too hot? How about cold? Will that work for long? If Tesla really couldn't design a portable solution that could handle 40A, they should have stated so from the beginning.
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All of the melting occured on the old black face adapters at 40A. The new one hasn't been through a full summer yet.�
Feb 6, 2015
Grendal I hate to throw the thread into a tangent, however, it seems to me that Tesla should have a voluntary group of owners that are beta testers for any new firmware downloads. This would create a buffer for the majority of owners for a new and potentially buggy download. I can't imagine that there would be 100 to 200 owners perfectly willing to do this. As we are hitting 70K owners you cannot have something hit that could cause an issue with all of those cars.
Unless there are others having similar problems with this particular update then it might be some specific issue with your car and this firmware update.
Sorry you are having issues. Good luck. I hope Tesla fixes your issue very quickly. With over 2000 posts and a picture of a Roadster as your Avatar then that tells me that you are dedicated.�
Feb 6, 2015
qwk And to answer the other questions, Yes, I absolutely do charge frequently at RV parks. That is the only choice around here when on trips. No, I haven't charged at an RV park since this last update. Remember, I have had it only a few days. On 5.12, I only experienced the current drop one time(same 14-50).�
Feb 6, 2015
Cosmacelf FWIW, reading between the lines in my emails to/from Tesla about charging issues, I suspect Tesla is coming out with a new version of the UMC. If you ask nicely, maybe Tesla would allow you to be a beta tester of it, since you seem to have an extreme situation.�
Feb 6, 2015
deonb qwk,
I hope you sent your post above almost as-is to Jerome.
I have no doubt Tesla will find a way to resolve your specific issue, but this is a more systemic Tesla problem that affects more people. There should absolutely be a way that you can phone up support 24/7 and have them downgrade your firmware within 30 minutes if something goes wrong.�
Feb 6, 2015
PlanB You mention Portland....just curious on what area you live in.�
Feb 6, 2015
qwk I'm sure this will get to Jerome. The thing is, many people here have had this same problem, and Tesla still hasn't done anything. Yes. They really do need a support line. As it is, it takes a very long time for minor issues to get resolved. Tesla considers these things minor.
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Lewiston�
Feb 6, 2015
PlanB wow.�
Feb 6, 2015
NigelM They do and there's at least a few on this forum, none of whom will admit it since they obviously have signed NDAs (which is fair enough).�
Feb 6, 2015
spaceballs Likely will never see a way to override it, as even if you agree it still could be in a shared garage complex/condo/etc.. where the charging happens.
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Have to disagree, there been many cases where upstream breaker has gone bad and Fused shorted...�
Feb 6, 2015
wk057 Well, it's supposed to trip.
However, my original point is that this still isn't the car's problem. If say after complaining, "Hey, Mr. Owner. I detected a voltage drop and am reducing current for your safety," I as the owner decide to tell the car, "You're an idiot, that was just my A/C kicking on, crank that **** back up."...... it should listen.�
Feb 6, 2015
spaceballs Maybe shore power is not clean enough and is causing something on the UMC side to get into this condition?�
Feb 6, 2015
wk057 The UMC is a mostly dumb appliance, it only changes the pilot signal amperage based on the resistor in the adapter attached. The car does the 40-30A change.�
Feb 6, 2015
spaceballs Yep agreed, but you be surprised how many Don't when their post to. I've seen firetrucks come out to a lab because the wire in the wall was being overloaded and cooking, all due to bad breaker that failed (didn't trip).
Ok say it's like qwk outlet at his work.. and in the wall is a bad connection causing the voltage drop.. say qwk then says override.. and breaker doesn't do it's job and then a fire happens... now exchange business with condo with sleeping baby in next door... well now you know how Tesla has to juggle these things.
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When I say UMC side I mean anything past the relay in the UMC, i.e. Inlet of car, car onboard charger, etc..�
Feb 6, 2015
wk057 As tragic as your hypothetical sounds, objectively it's still not Tesla's problem. It's the fault of the breaker/wiring being bad, not the load on the receptacle.
That's the firmware making the decision, the complaint this entire thread is about.�
Feb 6, 2015
spaceballs In the future if I was really not wanting to upgrade my firmware I would disable car cellular.�
Feb 6, 2015
wk057
While in for service:
�
Feb 6, 2015
spaceballs OK say connecter at the inlet is loose and overheating.. and about to catch fire.. the car sees voltage drop... the car has to pick one.. 1. keep charging... 2. back down.
All you have to do is think of lawyers and then what parts are made by which company... sorry I can't make it any simpler than that for you.
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I understood while it was in service, he has no choose of the matter it's a safety issue.. if he has a problem then he should would work on why the car is backing down from 40A.�
Feb 6, 2015
wk057 For anyone wondering, I'm particularly annoyed by this firmware-related change of the charge current because it has affected me on several occasions. I've put in the request that this be able to be overridden multiple times since, also.
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For the connector at the inlet to the car, the car knows the position of it. If it isn't seated properly it generally already knows this (orange ring) and reduces current or doesn't charge at all (red ring). If there is some mechanical issue in the inlet that is causing a bad connection while fully seated that's a whole other issue entirely and I'd fully expect Tesla to be held accountable regardless of if the car backed down the amperage or not.
So because Tesla might have screwed something up and there is a bad connection the could possibly result somewhere on the "UMC side" of things, the owner doesn't get to use the 10kW charger he paid for in false-detect (nearly all) situations?
If the bad connection is on the receptacle side... again, user error. The UMC or car didn't fail in this case. There is no NEC code that says the car/charge needs to perform this "safety" check, either.�
Feb 6, 2015
spaceballs A common failure on connectors dealing with high amperage is wear and dirt on the contacts themselves, how do you expect the car to detect when this happens? Only two things I can think of is heat and voltage drop. From common sense standpoint is to back down amps until voltage doesn't sag. Now like you and the OP states how much do you want it to back down from, that's the million dollar question, and only Tesla will get to decide from a safety standpoint. Personally I would have them error on the side of caution.�
Feb 6, 2015
wk057 Don't get me wrong. There should certainly be some stupidity checks in the firmware with regard to this. For example, if when you start the charge, and the voltage drops proportional to the amperage ramp up and results in some ridiculous drop it should definitely dial back since obviously the car is the cause of the large sag.
It should also be able to easily detect full voltage drop outs on a sub-second level without much nuisance tripping, among other things like GFCI protection, possibly AFCI protection if the hardware can do this.
But when someone is consistently getting the same issue from a false-fault detection... an override button would be nice. Either that or they need to just not do it all together.
There is no other fault detection equipment that I'm aware of that reacts to voltage dips like the Model S does with recent firmware. The Model S charger is a 99% PF load that is awesomely steady. Any intermittent change in voltage is not the car's fault once charging is going. It will only be the result of other loads on the system, which aren't the car's problem. If Tesla expects every outlet to maintain a rock solid voltage at a steady high current they're crazy. With no changes in load in my house the voltage at the Model S dash can fluctuate 5% in either direction. This is from the street, nothing to do with anything going on in the house or with the car. Occasionally the car sees this as a concern and dials back the amperage...... and still the voltage fluctuation continues anyway. The dial down did nothing to help anyone here. My wiring is above that required for the HPWC, and the voltage drop between the HPWC and the service panel is virtually non-existent... yet the car sometimes thinks there is an issue. I find this annoying, but for someone needing to charge in a set time period on a daily basis (like qwk charging at his job) that 25% loss in power is not just something that you can just write off as nothing.
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In this case the voltage drop would be immediate upon charge start, and would fall under the example I noted above. This doesn't appear to be the case with the OP. Definitely isn't the case with me with a brand new P85D and brand new HPWC that was just installed, either.
Edit: As an example, after my side-by-side efficiency test yesterday, the P85D and P85 were both charging at 80A from their HPWCs when we got home. Not a problem, I have 400A service here. Voltage sag at the panel, according to TED, was 1-2% off the service entrance conductors to the 200A panel the HPWCs are in.
Cars charged for a while (over an hour) without issue at 80A. The incoming voltage moved around a bit at the panel from the service side. A couple % up, and shortly back to where it was. Most likely a heavy load going offline elsewhere nearby, then coming back shortly. All of a sudden the P85D decided to drop to 60A. The P85 was still happy at 80A, though... yet the voltage at the dashes was the same.
I contacted Tesla about this because it's annoying. Had I actually needed to get a full charge in the expected amount of time for whatever reason, I would have been pissed. (In this case the P85 got to 90% charge ~45 minutes before the P85D, replacing nearly identical amounts of power).�
Feb 6, 2015
spaceballs That 100% false, i.e. contacts can start out just good enough but later one due to slow heat build up internally due to resistance, or external outside environment issue (i.e. sun hitting it) could cause it to happen at any time.. i.e. the voltage drop meeting the threshold where firmware thinks something is wrong.
But in doing so covers (to me anyways) an additional safety feature I rather have present than not.
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Maybe D has latest gen hardware/firmware charger and can better detect issues? Whatever the case, at least your contacting Tesla, if enough people complain maybe they will modify to not back off as much, or even just add in firmware code to creep amperage back up to the original preset if no more sag is present.�
Feb 6, 2015
hiroshiy qrk, I hope Tesla address the issue quickly and send you a temporary firmware and a new tested UMC. There will be debates as to where the source of the problem was, Tesla needs to make customer happy first.
That said I experienced similar dialing back from firmware 6.0 - I was charging at 80A with HPWC (in my case 200V) and even the voltage sags to 195V it was fine. Now with the 6.0 the current is dialed back to 17 all the time with around 198 or 197V...�
Feb 6, 2015
wk057 (Keeping this string of comments together for clarity)
Saying it is 100% false is in fact, false. Heat does cause resistance to increase, certainly. However, you were talking about "wear and dirt" in/on the contacts. Breaking that down, dirt is not going to be as conductive as the contacts, if at all, thus a loss of contact surface area, thus an immediately detectable increase in resistance (and voltage drop). Wear is the loss of part of the contact surface resulting in them not making contact to as much area as they had previously, resulting in a loss of surface area, and thus the same immediate increase in overall resistance (and voltage drop). Both situations covered by a voltage sense during the initial ramp up.
Now if while charging the contacts or other metal along the line (copper, silver, aluminum, whatever) increases in temperature, and increases the resistance, this is an entirely different scenario than "wear and dirt." The increased heat would exaggerate these issues, but the issue would be present all along anyway. So, my initial statement above is not "100% false" as it was meant to address the specific scenario mentioned in the first post quote above, not external or resistive heat build up after the initial charge ramp, which would, again, only exaggerate the preexisting issue anyway (which should have already been detected).
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Did some math here (pretty sure I've got this right), and I'll note that the voltage drop difference from temperature change in copper in pretty negligible at these currents anyway. At 40A in the UMC conductors, using 0C as a reference, increasing the temperature of the conductors by 100C (which I think would be pretty extreme) increases the voltage drop by 0.6%. There is pretty much no way the car is going to be able to distinguish this voltage drop from anything else on the line anyway, so the heat-based resistance increase isn't going to be detectable in the first place.
Edit: Going further on that, we'll assume a fault condition does present itself where say, 20% of the conductive material becomes unavailable for whatever reason (a gnome wedged itself in the contact lets say) long into a charge. If I did the math right (it is late, so possibly not), we're now looking at a voltage drop of just over 1% (about 2.6V) vs normal. Again, this is a pretty normal fluctuation for a grid connected outlet to have anyway. The car has no way to determine a fault vs normal voltage fluctuation.
Anyway, I'm done arguing this. You can go to bat for Tesla all you want on this for whatever reason. The fact is their algorithm has more false alarms than early generation AFCI breakers. Both situations are an annoyance, but an AFCI tripping when I use a table saw isn't going to leave me waiting an additional 2.5 hours to get somewhere. At least Tesla has the ability to fix their problem with new software that isn't so trigger happy. In the meantime, until they get it right, they need to let people who know what they're doing override the damn thing, at their own risk.�
Feb 6, 2015
Bet TSLA It's pretty clear that Tesla has already solved your problem, qwk. The HPWC is designed to work in challenging environments. For some reason you don't want to use it.
You are finding that over time Tesla has fine tuned the firmware to prevent damage and disasters. Apparently, given your history of melted cables, you are happy to operate close to the edge. Tesla, having to serve a large variety of customers, many of whom are ignorant and careless, has a responsibility to prevent problems. They are fulfilling their responsibility, which as a side effect is preventing you from doing what you like. Sorry, but they aren't going to change it back. Just get an HPWC and I bet your problems will go away.
Meanwhile, perhaps you can encourage the creation of some local HPWC installations by way of Tesla's destination charging program. That will make trips easier and faster for you. I bet you'll feel better too.�
Feb 7, 2015
spaceballs In a nut shell I'm saying you can't use the "Both situations covered by a voltage sense during the initial ramp up." Also your not following the end of the example, say the contractor did get hot enough to slowly deform the contacts. This could have a serious impact on over all surface area and quickly lead to dangerous resistance changes (what is the resistance of a small molten copper ball?). Another example that's non inlet wise is the cord insulator is failing in charge cord (cord getting crushed) and it starts to arc in the middle of a charge?, etc..
I think voltage sag should always be monitored and not just on the start of the inital ramp up.�
Feb 7, 2015
wk057 I'm just going to lol a bit at this one... the contacts in the charger cable and charge port are made of copper... which has a melting point of 1,085C (nearly 2000F)... if the contacts get deformed by heat I think you have some much more serious problems on your hands... like moving your car off of the surface of the sun. (And before anyone says anything about solder, keep in mind that Tesla uses ultrasonic welding for all of these parts, so, no solder to melt).
As for the plastic around the contacts, if this deforms under heat, you're already screwed anyway... but the plastic melting isn't going to cause a voltage change. Could cause a ground fault... maybe. The connectors themselves fit together pretty tightly, so even some play due to plastic becoming more malleable is probably not going to change things much with respect to voltage drop.
In the case of the cord insulation failing, someone cutting the cable, a cat chewing it, etc... this is the ground fault and arc fault detection and is an independent safety mechanism that has nothing to do with voltage drop. (GFCI works by detecting an imbalance of current to ground, AFCI detects arc faults via advanced logic to detect the arcing circuit, not voltage drop.)
Edit: Anyway, these scenarios don't seem to be what the whole voltage drop detection was intended to prevent anyway. It is intended, and was stated, that it detects substandard premises wiring and extension cords, both of which, again, are detectable on the initial ramp.�
Feb 7, 2015
spaceballs So you don't believe two copper contacts in a high amperage connector can never get into a case where they can melt and cause issues. Ok fair enough you win, I'll will ignore the my melted copper EV Anderson connector that I thew away from a current overload (I shorted one out with some ultracaps through it). btw there have been more than one EV DYI builds with connectors that have stayed withing it's rated power limits but due to resistance issues have melted (and it was after inital pre ramp). Can't find the orginal EV DYI post, but here something similar smaller scale Anderson Connector Meltdown - The GPSy EV Project Chief Delphi - Battery connector.....
Say it wasn't the the ground wire that has the insulation fault, but the other two wires that start to arc. you hope in a short amount of time that the ground wire insulation will melt due to the arc heat and trigger the GFCI but that might take a second(s). So if you were the car for safety reasons do you just keep chugging along charging, or ramp down? I personally would at least have the car keep ramping it down till the point it disconnects the UMD relays.
I can make up more plausible scenarios, but I hope you see that having a safety circuit always monitoring for voltage sag makes for a safer design.�
Feb 7, 2015
wk057 *sigh*
An ultracap? Really? You're trying to compare a 40A/240V outlet protected with a 50A OCPD upstream, and at least one additional larger OCPD upstream, with the instantaneous unchecked power output of a charged ultracap? Talk about being out in left field...
You need currents in the order of kiloamps to do this type of damage...
As for the DIY EV builds, you're talking a whole different set of issues there that could have taken place, likely have little, if anything, to do with this particular issue with Tesla... and a failure analysis which will be left for another forum on DIY EVs. For the record, I've heard zero reports of a Tesla charge port inlet going up in flames...
Math to the rescue again... it would take ~500A for 10+ seconds to electrically melt the wiring in the UMC cable. It would take ~1500A for 10+ seconds to do the same to the wiring inside the car. Instant weld amperage for either is well over 15kA... well beyond what any OCPD would trip at, let alone that the supply wiring couldn't even provide that kind of current most likely. For fun, within reach of a decent ultra cap, though... and probably also possible from the DC side of the Model S battery.
What you describe is called an arc fault, and is prevented with an AFCI, as mentioned above. It has absolutely nothing to do with voltage sag. The AFCI monitors instantaneous current usage at a millisecond level and compares the patterns to lab produced arc faults, defines a probability that a similar condition is happening or not, and acts or doesn't act almost immediately. For what it's worth, as far as I know the Model S does NOT have any type of AFCI. The UMC and HPWC do have GFCIs however.
The lack of an AFCI doesn't justify the voltage drop reaction anyway. In the event of an arc fault, lowing the current isn't going to stop the arc. In fact, in this case lowering the amperage will increase the voltage and likely intensify the arc since an arc's ability to jump an air gap is directly proportional to voltage. Decrease amperage, which in turn increases line voltage, increase arcing
You can make up thousands of scenarios. Until you find me a code reference in the NEC (or proposed addition, or similar safety code) that shows a safety method/device/procedure/etc for accurately detecting an actual real world fault condition based entirely by monitoring voltage sag, or some other actually plausible reason to cause false faults and inconvenience the majority of the time it triggers instead of actually preventing an unsafe condition... then I'm going to stick with this being a kludge of a solution to a mostly nonexistent problem.
Sorry, voltage drop is just NOT a reliable or useful method for detecting an unsafe situation. Voltage on home wiring can vary +/- 15V depending on neighborhood and local loads, at any time, without any unsafe practices or actual danger present. This is normal. Yet the Model S firmware will see some of these changes and just freak out.
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One of the only reasons I'm continuing to reply here is to make sure that no one reads this and thinks that Tesla's current drop based on voltage drop is going to in any way even remotely protect them from any of the scenario's you've brought up. *That* would be unsafe, and not combating such nonsense would feel negligent on my part. Proper wiring, receptacles, OCPDs, etc are what will actually protect the premises wiring.... not Tesla.�
Feb 7, 2015
spaceballs A Tesla roadster with 120v charger cable + 50 foot 14/3 gauge extension (which has max NEC limit rating of 15A). It's plugged into an 20amp socket. I start charging my roadster at 15A, at the end of the extension cable has two more outlets available. I connect up another device that uses 4 amps. Now I'm exceeding the NEC limit of the extension cord, BUT the Roadster will stop charging as soon as the 4 amp load is plugged in.
Now I can re-do the scenario that would fit the original poster but you can see how the voltage sag detection prevented the NEC Amp overlimit (prevent idiots from doing dumb things.) Sadly I accidentally did the above scenario, when I was testing extension cords out on my roadster.
Do i win a cookie?�
Feb 7, 2015
wk057 No cookie.
First, this isn't something the Roadster does that is covered by the NEC or any similar safety code. No plug and cord appliance (in this case, the Roadster) is expected to reduce it's current draw in response to voltage sag under any code, NEC or otherwise. On the contrary, most appliances *increase* their current draw in response to voltage drop to maintain their required power usage in watts.
Second, I'll point out that the negligence involved in the extension cord situation you describe STILL has nothing to do with the car... but anyway, the situation you describe at 19A would cause a voltage drop of about 6V on the 14 gauge extension cord. So the Roadster could eat 1,710 watts, the hypothetical exactly 4 amp load would get 456 watts, and the extension cord would be a resistive heater pulling 114 watts. 1,710 + 456 + 114 = 2,280 watts, or 19A @ 120V at the male end of the cord. The cord itself would eventually heat to about 68-72C at 30C ambient temp. Your Roadster annoyingly shutting your charge down in this situation hasn't actually saved anything, regardless of the operator stupidity in this scenario.
Also keep in mind that your hypothetical 4A load is likely drawing more than 4A depending on what it is. Unless it is something with a maximum amperage rating and not an actual wattage rating, it will draw the wattage it needs at an input voltage range. The chances of you actually staying under the 20A OCPD limit here with an extra 480W load (which would actually demand 4.2A at 114V) are slim since 20A breakers are not rated for continuous duty @ > 16A, the breaker will pop within about ~3-4 hours max under this load normally (even without the extra real world .2A).
(14 gauge wire is rated for 20A with 75C insulation. All of the 14 gauge extension cords I have use 90C insulation...)
Keep them coming. I'm having fun now. lol�
Feb 7, 2015
Matias What is the logic behind this algorithm? Car is affraid, that wires are too thin and may cause overheating and fire?�
Feb 7, 2015
wk057 As explained to me by Tesla when this first happened to me, the car is trying to detect substandard premises wiring, or the use of undersized or ridiculously long extension cords. A large voltage drop on the current ramp up when starting a charge is able to determine, generally, if the wiring is sufficient for the current draw based on NEC and other guidance on voltage drop. If the car feels too much power will be released as heat in the wiring, it slows the charge and pops up with the message saying this, "Charge speed reduced, Extension cord or bad wiring" (or similar message). This makes perfect sense and should definitely be included in the firmware. The goal would be to help people who have bad premises wiring realize this and hopefully get it repaired/replaced since the car will be a continuous load that requires good wiring.
However, the problem is they've expanded this detection beyond the initial voltage drop calculation (the one that actually provides useful data) and monitor the voltage drop throughout the entire charge. When something unrelated happens on your power connection, not even on the same circuit or even in the same building, that causes a voltage drop, the car flips out and reduces charge current... even though there was no reason to so do.
In the case of the OP, it is obviously this expanded algorithm, combined with a business's normal power demands, that are causing the car to not want to charge at a normal speed.�
Feb 7, 2015
spaceballs After my first discovery of that, I actually then connected a AC electronic controlled load connected to the roadster that was charging at 12-15 amps (as I can adjust charging current of both car and electronic load), I was doing this to see it's voltage sag limits to see it's where it dropped out.
If you fail to see how the roadster prevented the overload extension cord (by UL standards/NEC) I feel like your playing mind games at this point.
I'll make the scenario match the OP case.
Say the 14-50 is installed wrong and some how someone as tapped into the 14-50 outlet with another high power current draw (say another 14-50 or worse). Now add in a worn out main breaker that likes to stick closed (yes this does happen), start the Model S is charging and then 10 minutes later the other 14-15 outlet is then used at full load. Now the wires from the 14-50 back to the panel is overloaded. Now the Models S see the voltage sag and drop to a level that is hopefully safe or even better it disconnects completely.
I don't think I have much else to say, if you don't see how this could prevent a more serious problem.�
Feb 7, 2015
WarpedOne Anyone not happy about the power Model S is pulling out of their walls should shut up and fix their wiring.
Or start saving up for the membership into a very hot club:
A responsible company errs on the safe side.�
Feb 7, 2015
Lerxt It seems to me that the UMC need to go and be replaced with the Wall Connectors being given out in Hong Kong, Europe, Australia etc.�
Feb 7, 2015
TexasEV Getting back on topic here, why is the firmware being blamed when the vast majority (meaning everyone except for the OP) on 6.1 do not have the issue he described of charging stopping every 5 minutes?�
Feb 7, 2015
wycolo If the OP has provided voltages/currents during UMC charging, as read on the screen, then I've missed it. At least give us that.
The M in UMC means 'mobile' and not for repeated fixed base usage, esp since the HPWC was finally released. I've used my UMC maybe 3 times. If you allow sun to shine on UMC how can you feel it for internal overheating??
The W in HPWC means 'wall'. Step back and consider the implied usage intended by the designer/producer/mfr.
'useless junk' ~ 'odious piece of crap' [search on this].
--�
Feb 7, 2015
TexasEV Mobile is a feature, not a requirement for using a UMC. Who ever said it was not for repeated fixed base usage? I think my use is a very common scenario-- it stays plugged in the outlet in my garage, with the cord on a wall hook next to the outlet, except when I travel out of town I take it with me. I've used it that way since July 2013 without any issues. I know it can go bad, but I don't see how keeping it "fixed base" or using it just on trips would affect that.�
Feb 7, 2015
liuping Since the OP has gone through 6 UMC's and that it far, far more than the normal, I'd say the UMC is not up to the usage scenario he has.
Personally, I would never think of purging and unplugging the UMC daily. The wear and tear on the socket and connecter would be quite high. Also, since the UMC is known to get very hot during 40Amp charging, I would never charge at 40Amp while the UMC is exposed to direct, hot sun.
But if I decided to push the UMC and do the above two things against my better judgement, I would absolutely stop after the first (or at most second) UMC died. I would have dialed back to 35 or maybe 30 Amps or looked into installing a HPWC at work, and been done with it.�
Feb 7, 2015
hiroshiy I think there was another person on this forum that experienced the similar charging issues, with a factory close by with some noise on AC. I guess it might be that there are some problematic cases of UMC with AC with noise or surge or whatever. I don't know the cause for sure, but I believe Tesla is responsible for isolating the case and identifying the source of the problem and solve the issue, or at least explain technically to OP why it didn't work as designed. It's a consumer product admit should work like turning a key.�
Feb 7, 2015
jerry33 An A/C motor start up (like an air compressor) on the same service will often cause the Tesla to lower the voltage (this would be true with an HPWC as well). For Tesla to make a UMC that would be immune to this would be possible, but it wouldn't be very mobile and would cost quite a bit more.�
Feb 7, 2015
qwk Gotta love the Tesla apologists. Like I said, the building wiring is 100% fine. 6ft of #6 THHN in 1 inch metal conduit. The voltage drop on the dash is usually about 240V at 0A, 236V at 40A. I don't know what it was yesterday(didn't have time to monitor it, and had to have car fully charged in 3 hours). I can't imagine the drop was much different.
This is an issue of someone buying a car woth a certain use case scenario, that scenario being met for about two years, and then taken away with new firmware. Nothing less nothing more.
Toa all of the advice about getting an HPWC, nothing will change, the car is responsible for this BS. Not the charging cords.
Nobody but Tesla can fix this.�
Feb 7, 2015
apacheguy You most certainly may request it, but I don't see how it's relevant. If the same wiring and connections have been in place and the car has accepted them before, then all of sudden comes along a firmware update and bam it doesn't work... Well, let's just say it's a bit suspicious.�
Feb 7, 2015
PlanB Have you talked to Jason at the Portland SC?�
Feb 7, 2015
dsm363 You are making it sound like Tesla 'took it away from you' and are targeting you for some reason with this release. There obviously is an issue and I understand being upset this is cropping up now but is charging at 30A or 35A not an option until Tesla figures this out?�
Feb 7, 2015
PlanB That is not how he is coming across, maybe that is how you are reading but that is not how he has presented it at all.�
Feb 7, 2015
qwk He is the one that said I HAD to update the FW. I have had long discussions with Jason, but not since last summer. This is a FW issue, so his hands are tied.�
Feb 7, 2015
dsm363 "I paid for 10kW charging, and received it. Now they are taking it back. Not cool." and "Tesla's choice to limit charging current after the fact is the entire problem." are the comments I'm referring to.
Tesla isn't 'taking it back' it appears they have tightened to tolerances allowed most likely for safety reasons.
I would think after 6 UMCs bad luck with getting a bad UMC might account for the first 4-5 of them but at some point there has to be something else going on to cause so many to break down. There have been issues with UMCs and some getting 2 or 3 different ones until they get one that works but 6 bad ones is a stroke of horrible luck if the wiring and everything else is working perfectly.
If an HPWC isn't an option maybe a robust ClipperCreek J1172 station and using the adapter might be an option at work.
I've charged at 40A for over 2 years and have never had this issue with any firmware version and in multiple locations. Not everyone has had the same experience charging at 40A with this software release. Obviously some have an issue (real or perceived by Tesla's software) that is causing it to limit the Amps delivered to the car.�
Feb 7, 2015
qwk Some of the time lower amperage charging is OK. That's not what this is about though. Like I told Jason, this current reduction is going to happen when you least want it to. It's NOT ok for Tesla to all of a sudden up RV park stays by hours after they have your money.
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If you had bothered to read my posts, only 3 UMC's had some melting, and I'm far from the only one with that many UMC problems. Like stated up thread, a different charging connector won't fix the charge dial back issue.
We also must have different definitions of something that being taken away.�
Feb 7, 2015
dsm363 I am sorry you're having all of these issues and hope Tesla addresses them. Service always seems to go above and beyond. Has an electrician ruled out the building wiring or the outlet? Do you unplug your UMC from work every single day or do you leave it there?
I understand Tesla's position on this though. I've had my car for over 2 years. If I never updated and came in with an issue on software version 3.1 or whatever it was back then and this was known to be fixed 2 years ago with a newer version (but I refused to update) what should Tesla do? Should they continue to support know buggy versions 2, 3, 5 years after the fact?
I understand not being on the front line of software updates and Tesla should allow customers to hang back and let others update and find problems but at a certain point it makes sense for them to force an update. It's a rolling computer but it's still a car. If you don't update OS X for 2 years, nothing is likely to happen with your safety but if Tesla improves issues related to safety/charging along with the other 'fun' features they should probably push them out at some point. Also, Tesla doesn't have the staff to indefinitely support software versions that are years out of date.
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This is a long thread so sorry if I missed it. 'Bothered to read' really isn't necessary. You are definitely (for whatever reason) getting less charging rate than you paid for. I hope Tesla can figure this out for you.
Have you tried charging on a HPWC at any other location? It sounds like there probably isn't one anywhere near you. Maybe another owner could come check out your work plug with their UMC and see if same issue happens.
There is obviously a lot of emotion here for some reason as noted in the title. Charging at 30 or 35A doesn't turn the car into a useless piece of junk. You're not charging at the rate you deserve and paid for you it hardly junks the car.
Can you not upgrade your garage at home to a 14-50 (I might have missed the reason why, I know you use 120V there now)?�
Feb 7, 2015
dhanson865 I don't understand why so many here are focussed on your work wiring when you also use the UMC for mobile charging at RV parks. If I were the moderator I'd have moved some of the posts in this thread to snippiness or to another thread all their own.
I hope the next firmware update helps, or at the least you get a more durable UMC so you aren't dealing with an average of 3 failures a year.�
Feb 7, 2015
PlanB What's not necessary is for your personal attacks, so how about you just go away and let the OP continue with this thread. You are the only one that is making pointless, needless comments and accusations.�
Feb 7, 2015
qwk I do unplug every day. Not a problem though, as RV's plug and unplug continuously also.
You brought up a good point though. If you passed the warranty while on the FW that the car came with, Tesla doesn't update out of warranty cars(info straight from the SC), so yes you would have that firmware technically forever.�
Feb 7, 2015
dsm363 Please report the personal attacks so other mods can address it then. I must have missed them.�
Feb 7, 2015
qwk Can't change the charging situation at home. House has an FPE panel, and I don't own it.�
Feb 7, 2015
dsm363 You shouldn't have to (the UMC should just work at 40A) but is a more permanent EVSE (ClipperCreek or HPWC) install at work not an option? Have you run into this charging bug at any other locations at 40A? That would help the engineers narrow down the issue maybe if you are running into this bug at RV parks, other people's houses...etc.�
Feb 7, 2015
TexasEV The OP said his car stops charging every 5 minutes now. Not that the current drops back to 30A, which was a previous issue, but that charging stops. Am I understanding this correctly? If this is what's happening, I still don't see how anyone can assume it's caused by the new firmware because this problem seems unique to this one car.�
Feb 7, 2015
qwk Like I stated up thread, This is a new phenomenon, and yes, if it happens on a known good outlet, it will happen elsewhere. There really isn't much to narrow down. There is no software on this planet that can check for faulty wiring, and only catch faulty wiring. That's why so many have been caught in this mess.
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It did both, alternating a bit. I wish I could pull the logs and post them here. It was a mess.�
Feb 7, 2015
dsm363 The only way to know for sure is to try a different outlet. Find an RV park or some other 14-50 and see if you get the same error. I know this is going above and beyond what you should have to do but it might help narrow down the issue. Hope Tesla figures this out soon for you.�
Feb 7, 2015
NigelM I feel like some cars may be more sensitive than others, but I've no empirical evidence for that. At least one friend here locally has had this problem over about a two year period (if I recall the timeframe correctly) so I understand it must be very frustrating.
In any case here's a link to the general discussion on this subject: Anyone-Still-Experiencing-Charge-Current-Limiting. As a general comment I don't think we need to grill the OP as this problem clearly isn't unique to him.�
Feb 7, 2015
NigelM BTW, OP isn't alone in having gone though multiple UMCs: UMC-Connection-Problems�
Feb 7, 2015
qwk Thanks for the support, Nigel. What some here fail to realize is the fact that there are different use cases for the Model S, and other cars for that matter. What works for some, doesn't work for others.
I should probably clarify that in each UMC melting case, the UMC didn't exactly melt into a glob of plastic. All that happened was a little 1/8 inch melting around one of the conductor pins. The UMC never stopped working, it was just wise to replace them. This also took a long time to manifest. The UMC worked as it should for a long period of time, and got gradually hotter, and hotter at the adapter junction....
Anyway, I sent an email to Jerome. I hope he can take care of this issue for everyone affected.�
Feb 7, 2015
spaceballs Interesting I miss the part where it actually would disconnect itself from charging. From all your issues you had I would ask the service center to at least to swap out the ac-dc charger in the car. Like the Mod says some units might be more sensitive than others.
I would keep in mind that a 99.9% of the time RVs will only pull max amps for only small brief moment, while you might be doing it continuously.
Yep I would have the same exact worries if I used an UMC and unplugged/replugged it in daily, all connectors like these have a useful life of x number of times.�
Feb 7, 2015
FlasherZ I'll reiterate what I said before with regard to the backing off. The car is sensing fluctuations that are indicative of a voltage/resistance problem. There is something creating that problem -- the car is trying to protect your property. It could be anything from a failing appliance (see my post from the other thread about a simple failing ballast creating the same failure signature).
This is not Tesla saying "let's screw over qwk". Expansion/contraction of screws on the outlet or a breaker can cause this, as can a transformer or an added load, or even an appliance that went bad.�
Feb 7, 2015
deonb Actually you can.
Use a Quick 220 and plug it into 2 opposite leg outlets.�
Feb 7, 2015
FlasherZ It's an AFCI-like detection algorithm. Once you get to full power, you could be burning the wires through. I could probably agree with tweaking the algorithm such that it "trusts" the circuit and has a reduced response after the car has been charging at full power for several minutes, but you don't want to do that until you have faith that wire or terminals aren't burning or melting through.
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You DEFINITELY don't want to do stuff that's against code in a place with an FPE panel. If I were in a long-term lease, I'd even volunteer some money to help the landlord replace that FPE crap, as dangerous as it is. (My rental home in California nearly burned due to an FPE breaker failure.)
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...and I'm on the other side of the spectrum. As one who nearly had his house burn due to electrical problems, I'm very happy that Tesla is looking out for my property. If the car backs off, there's something wrong with it, or your infrastructure, or an appliance. Find it and fix it, is my suggestion.
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It would burn both the outlet (unless, of course, you're using a high-temp 14-50 Hubbell outlet rather than your run-of-the-mill Leviton). A very high-quality (read: high-temp) outlet would melt the UMC plugs without doing much damage to the receptacle. There's definitely something wrong, though. Your 6 UMC melting adapters are likely due to the bad contact in the previous design along with summer, but perhaps there's some loose wiring too.
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Large arc-fault detectors will do this occasionally, depending upon the disturbance.�
Feb 7, 2015
andrewket AND the car won't increase the amperage during the same charging session once this occurs. Reacting to a dip wouldn't be as annoying if after a few minutes of consistent voltage the car adjusted the amperage back to the user's preference.�
Feb 7, 2015
FlasherZ When they introduced it, it was (and still is) intended to detect two things:
1. What you speak of, which is a significant voltage drop that would indicate a high-resistance - either some hot, loose terminals or wiring that is improperly sized. This is easy - and you've pointed out how Tesla can detect this on the ramp-up and then dampen its effects.
2. Arc-faults -- this is what they're really concerned about... contacts too loose, that then begin to arc, which then leads to melting terminals and wires and fires and stuff.
It's that last one that keeps the detection algorithm running, and causes situations like a bad ballast in a fluorescent fixture to trigger the car's algorithms. As I said, I'd rather it be protected.
(Now, I've seen reports that the latest firmware will try to restore the charging current back to its original value over time... THAT is a good thing. I want the car to back off at a sign of trouble, but I want it also to re-try in case it was transient.)
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Someone had mentioned on the other thread that the latest version does this attempt at correcting the downshift.
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Ugh, I'm sorry. I would never charge a Tesla on an FPE or Zinsco panel. I'd even volunteer to pay if I had to.
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Some people have had bad chargers in their car - and the problem went away after the charger electronics were changed. It's certainly a possibility he has a bad charger in the car. It's hard to troubleshoot the reduction problem. I'd probably ask Jason for an action plan and ask him to consider swapping the charger at the next service, just to eliminate that from being a problem.�
Feb 7, 2015
qwk I'm definately not saying Tesla is trying to screw me. In a nutshell, I predicted this would happen after seeing all of the problems with 5.8.4. I tried to keep away by refusing a FW update. I'm really surprised it took this long for problems to show up.
I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you on the car protecting your wiring. For every case that it helps, there are probably dozens of cases of "crying wolf". I'm smart enough to determine whether it's a good idea to charge or not. What's next? Tesla limiting the speed limit on every car to 80mph like the loaners? After all, that a the legal limit in the US.
What if someone lives really close to a generation plant? They won't be able to charge at 40A because of the constant fluctuations. Your unsafe scenario theory is really weak. No other common appliance stops working when there are small voltage surges.
I love the way how some posts here "cherry pick" stuff to fit their reply. Like I stated up thread. Only 3 of the UMC's had melting. They ALWAYS took a fair amount of time failing. When the UMC joint gets hotter and hotter over time, thus causing melting, it's pretty easy to rule out other possibilities.
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Tesla had issues with the 2nd gen chargers. My car has a first gen. This is definately not a hardware problem. It always has and is strictly a software nanny issue after a myriad of UMC problems.
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Tesla had issues with the 2nd gen chargers. My car has a first gen. This is definately not a hardware problem. It always has and is strictly a software nanny issue after a myriad of UMC problems.�
Feb 7, 2015
TexasEV My question is still unanswered-- why do you insist this is a firmware issue and it wouldn't have happened if you hadn't updated the firmware? If this is a firmware issue, don't you think there would be a significant number of reports of this happening all of the sudden after the update? Until Tesla finds the source of your problem, I think it would be best to keep an open mind about other possible causes. What if they found the charging port was bad and a new one solved your problems?�
Feb 7, 2015
Canuck I think the UMC is great for occasional use only because it's small and lightweight and great for keeping in the car. It just seem far too lightweight for daily use. It seems to me that a HPWC attached to a 14-50, with the dips set to 40 amps, is safer than using a UMC on a daily basis.�
Feb 7, 2015
apacheguy There is absolutely no issue using a UMC for daily charge needs. I have no need for a HPWC. Mine gets the job done and it works flawlessly. YMMV, obviously.�
Feb 7, 2015
Canuck Mine works fine too. I was just concerned how it would hold out for the length of time I plan to own this vehicle (about 8 years) given the high rate of UMC failures for new ones and how lightweight it looks inside and out. It makes me wonder what the rate of failure will be after a number of years of daily delivering 40 amps. Plus, I charge at just over 40 amps to even out the load on the chargers.
I bet Tesla is concerned about it too, which may be the reason for qwk's problems. Not his UMC, but the software wanting to make sure the load is correct for the UMC.�
Feb 7, 2015
wycolo The 17in screen has a really good voltmeter and ammeter to watch during charging. At onset ( 0 > a few amps) shows the house voltage before serious loading begins. Normally this would 240 volts, and fortunately here it usually is since I have my own largish pole transformer and the only major appliance running might be the fridge. Then as charging scales quickly up to 30A (my max) the voltage will necessarily sag to 235v (240/235v is what I usually see) due to my 300ft cabling from the transformer, and the house wiring (which is short here). If you have less than a 5v drop then you have pretty good wiring!
Watching the volts over time gives an indication of your neighborhood grid strength as significant local loads begin and end. This should be a smooth variation. Any abrupt changes would most likely be from your house or next door, like a water heater, electric range, or a defective appliance/short circuit.
Pretty good test equipment free from Tesla to check out your car's charging profile.
CS-40 evse feeding 30A max
--�
Feb 8, 2015
FlasherZ I live really close to a generation plant. I can charge at 40A just fine except in the presence of a misbehaving appliance, overloaded transformer, bad wiring, or a bad component in the car.
No other common appliance draws 40A continuous current for hours upon end while being connected via cord-and-plug. For most homes, the Tesla is the largest electrical load in terms of kWh that most owners' homes will ever see.�
Feb 8, 2015
qwk Bingo!
Not only did Tesla implement this in the firmware, they keep messing with it. That is my main gripe. One firmware version everything is fine, the next the car can't charge. Tesla keeps messing with firmware, and that's understandable, but things that work great really don't need changed. Regen is another good example.
Living so far from a Service Center, all I wanted was an option to stay on a very stable firmware version, so I could use the car without unexpected problems. It is our family's only vehicle. TO ME, the constant over the air updates are the worst thing about the car, by far. They create too many bugs while not adding huge changes(naming my car doesn't help me one bit). Updates such as individual tire pressure readouts, valet mode etc. would be different, and are possibly worth taking a risk for. I usually don't install the updates, and just ignore the update clock, but many times the simple fact the the car is pinged with a new update introduces a bug. This time it was the car not going to sleep most nights, so I figured I would chance it, and see if loading the update fixed it. It did, but the charging problem surfaced(I did try to reboot screens for the insomnia problem).
Another problem I should point out is the fact that there is no ATT 3G here, so engineers can't even pull logs and possibly fix the issue remotely. I do have WiFi at the office, so that helps, but the car only connects when driven on the lawn next to the router. I should note that all other devices like iPad, iPhone etc. can reach WiFi across the street. Anyway, I'm sure it's easy to live a few miles away from a SC and many Superchargers in California, and think that I'm just a complainer, but it's a totally different world out here. It's like the Wild West.
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Prior to FW 5.8.4, the car had a voltage threshold that it would not charge under(around 190V for 240V or 208V service), and it allowed a peak of something like 6mA through the ground before one would get the red chargeports ring, and a no go on charging.
After FW 5.8.4, minimal fluctuations in the Voltage cause the dial back to 30A, or even stopped charging. This changes constantly, so one day you are fine, the next SOL.
The same night after experiencing the problems which birthed this thread, the car charged fine at 40A for three hours. I of course wasn't under pressure to the car charged by a certain time. Murphy's law pretty much guarantees that these problems show up when you are on a tight schedule or at an RV park. That's just the way it is. Imagine plugging in to a 14-50 at an RV park, and taking a nice 1-2 mile walk to get a bite to eat. While eating or even walking there, you check the app, and bam the car stopped charging because of a one time 6V fluctuation at the RV park(these voltage fluctuations happens all the time at RV parks). Now you have to either pray like hell the car starts charging again on it's own, or walk back all pissed off and unplug/replug. Remember, this was not a worry for about the first 2 years of ownership. How would you feel?
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Congratulations, your car works fine with this FW. You have no worries. Mine on the other hand all of a sudden doesn't, and I can't and won't live with it, hence this thread.�
Feb 8, 2015
FlasherZ My car, like many others, is not very much different from yours (we're even roughly close in VIN #'s, so it's likely our charging systems are entirely the same). I don't understand your blame of the software, when it affects only a small percentage of vehicles -- the variable here being the charging environment or perhaps flaky hardware.
The point is that you are asking Tesla to remove a safety feature of the car because something in your environment trips that safety feature. I believe if you invested the time to find the environmental condition, your problem is solved. I don't believe that turning off the safety feature is ever the right way to handle it. And I don't believe that Tesla should remove a novel safety feature on the largest single load its customers will ever see (in terms of kWh), just because no other appliances do it. I thought we wanted Tesla to be novel, not just like everyone else.
Perhaps Tesla will adjust it a bit so that the effects are reduced, by having the car attempt to clear the problem and retry higher-amperage charging. Perhaps you and Tesla find that there is a problem with the charger and replacing the charging hardware that eliminates the current reduction. Perhaps Tesla will give you the ability to remove the guard on the sawblade, so-to-speak, and allow you to crank your amps up (and maybe they'll just allow us to override our amps to whatever we'd like, so that we can all push our currents wherever we'd like. Or, maybe they just throw caution into the wind and remove the safety checks.
Whichever path is taken, good luck to you - I know it can be frustrating when the results aren't there. I acknowledge our differences in opinion. My best to you.�
Feb 8, 2015
mackgoo When ever I come across an issue, yes the first thing I want to do is complain, it's only natural. At some point though, I need to take steps to resolve the issue. So what have you done to resolve this issue?
You can not charge un interrupted from any source? Does anyone "near" you own a Tesla? Maybe you could both meet at a central point and charge side by side. This may give you some valuable feed back.
Have you brought to Tesla? their open on the week ends. Take the day take a drive, leave out the firm ware thing, just tell them the charging issues your experiencing they'll take it in, probably give you a loaner and your on your way. It would be interesting to see if you still experience these issues with the loaner.
I think you said you have a "built up" 240v plug at work. What does that mean?
One last thing. A few weeks ago I came into a local SC and the station that isn't paired was free. Yahoooo. I plugged in and after a few minutes it interrupted and cycled down then up again. Did this a few more times so I called Tesla they didn't see anything wrong. The interrupting happened a few more times and I gave up and moved to another charger. A week or two latter I was back the golden station was open again and a cruised in and it charged with no issues. May be that one gets more wear and tear because it's not paired and always going max, who knows. It does seem there was an issue with the source.
Anyway get on Tesla and get this worked out.�
Feb 8, 2015
deonb -vs.-
So how is it getting these software update? I assume it wasn't over the air in this case, since you don't have over the air access. So is this an update you got from a service center, then drove home, and then realized it didn't work?
If so, is it an option for you to ask the service center to if they HAVE to update the firmware due to a recall, keep the car overnight to do additional testing (including charge testing), and explain to them how far away you are from a SC when something goes wrong? And if they don't HAVE to update it, then ask them to delay the update until the yearly service, and then do the overnight. That way it will be just like any other car - you just update it once a year.�
Feb 8, 2015
qwk LOL. Give me a break! Your argument is so weak you have to quote snippets. It all boils down to this. I took a look at the specs of the car, and decided the rewards outweighed the compromises. Anybody that doesn't admit that EV's are a compromise are lying. Guess what? This BS pushes the car into the compromises are not worth it anymore. It's really pretty self explanatory if you read the ENTIRE thread, and take everything into account.
I invite you to sit at an RV park for hours waiting for your car to charge dozens of times, and then increase that time by who knows how long. Are you proposing we rewire all of the nations RV parks? Lol Half the RV parks give the middle finger to EV owners to begin with. Try telling them that there are voltage fluctuations which screw with your cars charging needs. They will throw you off their property. A little common sense goes a long ways here.
IF the UMC had been properly engineered, this thread wouldn't exist. If you disagree, then I have nothing more to say to you.
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You have that exactly right. I pull up on the grass so I can monitor the charging via the iPhone app when the car needs to be charged by a certain time. That or trips is when the updates are pinged to the car. This one was over wifi at the office.
There was no option for the update last time I was at the SC. I couldn't have the car back without the update, fixed or not. This is the entire issue.
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You have that exactly right. I pull up on the grass so I can monitor the charging via the iPhone app when the car needs to be charged by a certain time. That or trips is when the updates are pinged to the car. This one was over wifi at the office.
There was no option for the update last time I was at the SC. I couldn't have the car back without the update, fixed or not. This is the entire issue.�
Feb 8, 2015
ecarfan @qwk, I'm wondering if perhaps the Model S is no longer a good fit for your environment. I doubt that Tesla is going to change the firmware current limiting feature that you say is causing you so much trouble. If the cars hardware is not at fault, and you are unable to modify your home charging system, then it seems like the only other thing to do is sell the car. I realize that is not what you want, but you are describing your car as "useless junk" to you. I am confident it would be very useful to someone else.�
Feb 8, 2015
qwk The most tragic thing about this, is Tesla decided to solve the UMC melting issue(all of the melting I have seen, started on the UMC adapter end, by the pins) by using tougher plastic on the adapter side. All of you making excuses for Tesla need to think about this for a minute.�
Feb 8, 2015
qwk When I bought the car, and up until now, it worked as advertised. So you are saying that it's my fault for trusting Tesla that they not change the specs at their convenience? Lol You have got to be kidding me. It's like blaming a battered wife for being beat by her husband. Unreal.�
Feb 8, 2015
Canuck Yes, that and the firmware changes that are driving you nuts.�
Feb 8, 2015
NigelM @qwk: apologies if I missed it but you did say somewhere up-thread that you had a loaner at one time; did that loaner experience the same problems?�
Feb 8, 2015
qwk No, because this was pre FW 5.8.4. The other loaner I had when I was on vacation, and I supercharged/120V charged at destination only.�
Feb 8, 2015
NigelM I think one of the clues to getting this to a stable place for you is to get a loaner out there on the latest software and compare side by side. I suspect that if your power source is OK then you have one of those sensitive cars, doesn't make a difference whether it's software or hardware you still need it fixed.
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Mod Note: the OP here doesn't even own an HPWC so I moved the whole discussion on plugs, HPWCs , insurance and NEC code over here -->Putting-a-plug-on-an-HPWC-(Code-Violations-and-Insurance).�
Feb 8, 2015
qwk The problem with that is the fact that this was probably not an all the time scenario, but one that happens enough(at the worst times when I must have a charge) to be a deal breaker. This is something I discussed with Jason in depth, because it was very easy to see coming. He was sure that if it happened, I could manually up the amperage one time, and that would be that. Well, not only does that not happen, the charge stops altogether sometimes. This is not something that is acceptable for RV park charging.�
Feb 8, 2015
bollar Still, there are members of this forum who use a UMC in environments that would appear to be more challenging than yours and who use RV park charging as often as you do or more -- and they don't report the same problems that you have. You have had charging problems since the first day you owned your car, and aside from a brief period with a specific firmware series where you had no problems, you've had consistent charging issues most of the time.
I do believe there's a fault with your car -- and probably with a group of cars with similar configurations and I hope Tesla finds the fix for you. I do think the advice to have a long-term loaner with the current firmware is the best way to rule out the wiring at your charging location and RV parks.
It would be interesting to know why the specific firmware that worked for you actually worked. Shame we'll never know the answer.�
Feb 8, 2015
NigelM Owning an RV myself (sorry about the gas folks but it's used for horse shows) I know that RV parks can experience quite some fluctuations but my own experience with taking our Model S along is that if we get a good starting situation (that might involve trying a couple of different outlets) then we have always been good from then on. Just for comparison also, we have a notoriously dodgy power supply (the overhead lines basically run through forest before they get here) and living in hurricane country I have a back-up 30kw generator; when that generator runs the LED bulbs in the house often flicker and dimmer switches are basically useless if they're not full on but our Model S has continued to charge without dialing down on all FW versions. When power has gone out the car stops charging but has re-started when the generator kicked on automatically; even our AC systems seem to struggle more with power fluctuations than the car does.
I get your point about the algorithms etc. but from everything I've read here I'm fairly certain you have an outlier and the problem is quite possibly more than software only; otherwise many more of us would be experiencing problems.�
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