Mar 15, 2012
rabar10 see: recursive loop�
Mar 15, 2012
stopcrazypp How do you propose to connect that 3-phase source to the car's on-board charger without a special socket? None of the J1772 cars can support a 3-phase connection. J1772 makes up pretty much all of the EVs and plug-ins that will be sold in the US, except for the Model S, which will support it with an adapter. Neither can the Model S socket (nor the Roadster socket) for that matter.
And I almost forgot that many of the DC chargers will likely be directly wired to the input (no socket at all), like the level-2 chargers currently are. And to make it clear, unlike the DC charging situation, J1772 is definitely already "defacto" for level-2 charging here in North America (and in Japan too). I just don't see 3-phase happening in the US anytime soon (and there is no indication anyone is even attempting to move in that direction).�
Mar 16, 2012
widodh I'm not going to go into this discussion that much, but the facts are simple:
USA: 1-phase high amps (100A?)
EU: 3-phase medium amps per phase (32A)
At the end of the day it both sums up to somewhere around 20kW.
Don't try to move the world here. Yes, the US power-grid is a 3-phase grid, but the end distribution is NOT done like in the EU, they balance phases by connecting blocks or houses to different phases. We can debate over and over if that's a good or bad thing. But be realistic, it won't change over night and certainly not in the coming 5 years (I'd even say 10, if it changes at all).
So Tesla made a good move, it took some nagging and bugging them, but in the US people can charge with 20kW AC and in the EU we can do the same, isn't that great?
3-phase power in the US is only available on request and will probably be very expensive to install?
I really don't get the point of this whole discussion.�
Mar 16, 2012
dpeilow hear, hear.�
Mar 16, 2012
VolkerP OK, in order to give this thread some new stuff to fret about, I have two questions:
1) For 3 phase mobile charging, what changes must be done to the Model S UMC? CEE plug and redesigned vehicle plug? new integrated EVSE?
2) Will there be a HPC 2.0 (or call it 2.5) for EU residential installation that feeds from a 3 phase grid connection? What vehicle plug will it come with?�
Mar 16, 2012
jcstp Model S Design Studio at Menlo Park
Is this 3 phases and one earth?
If yes, adapting it with a european 3 phase plug is going to be easy!�
Mar 16, 2012
doug Instead of more fretting, I'd be happier if this thread just got quiet until there was some actual new information. Clearly all that stuff will have to be changed to support 3-phase, particularly the vehicle plug. Right now Tesla has to focus on a successful North American launch and I suspect they be running down to the wire just to reach that.�
Mar 16, 2012
VolkerP 
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Mar 18, 2012
eledille Not quite that simple. CHAdeMO requires 3-phase, just like the Chameleon charger. The Chameleon charger converts all DC chargers that are not significantly more powerful than 43 kW into expensive do-nothing devices.
Absolutely!
Large buildings in the US also have 3-phase. Every CHAdeMO charger requires a 3-phase connection. If three phase was not widely available in the US, no-one would even be thinking of CHAdeMO there.�
Mar 18, 2012
jkirkebo At Model S voltage levels, a CHAdeMO charger will be 25-30% more powerful than a 43kW AC charger. So a 30 minute charge on CHAdeMO turns into a nearly 40 minute charge on 43kW AC. Not a huge difference, but definately worth something to me.
Of course, I'd love a network of 90kW Superchargers around the country. About 50 should do for a start
�
Mar 18, 2012
Eberhard i checked the flap door for Model S in Geneva. It's big enough to host the Mennekes socket. This means, no UMC or similar device is needed, only a simple Mennekes cable is needed.�
Mar 18, 2012
widodh I'm talking about residential areas. For home charging with 20kW in the US you'll be forced to use single-phase.�
Mar 18, 2012
Eberhard Any CHAdeMO charger or 90kW quickcharger could host 3 sockets for AC single-phase charger with up to 120A�
Mar 27, 2012
jcstp
Model S checking what is 3-phase�
Mar 27, 2012
widodh Hehe, indeed.
That's the one from the Geneva Motor Show btw.
I have been told that it doesn't have a battery in it. I also saw it outside the show and it has been running on a external 12V power supply�
Mar 27, 2012
jcstp Fast charging from 120V
could this be the start for a DIY 3-phase to 1-phase charger (in this thread it's 2-phase to 1-phase)�
Mar 27, 2012
donauker Not really. Our 120 volt circuits are split phase so this is just an approach to find two opposite 120 volt halves and combining them into a single phase 240 volt supply.�
Mar 27, 2012
hcsharp No. But last fall I went to an EV event where a guy was selling a device he made that hooked up to a Prius's battery and produced 120V up to 20A. To show off, he wanted to charge my Roadster with it. I didn't think it would work, but agreed to try it. Sure enough, I charged for quite a while at 16A 120v no problem! The whole thing was about the size of a desktop computer, and weighed about the same. I drove home wondering what would be required to get 32A output and simply rectify 3 phases to supply the input. Wouldn't be surprised if it would fit in the Roadster trunk.�
Apr 10, 2012
ElectricVehicle The Renault Zoe will have the 43kW AC 3 phase charging with the charger on board the vehicle. When you say "All the forthcoming Nissan chargers will have 43kW 3 phase as well." What is your source? On which vehicles?
Tesla, which has the least expensive prices for on board chargers, charges $1500 for another 10 kW of charging power. Scaling that up to an on board 43 kW charger would be roughly 4 x 10 kW units at $1500 each for a total of $6,000. In the context of the Nissan LEAF, I doubt they are going to add $6,000 or maybe they do it a bit cheaper - $4,000 to each LEAF for 43 kw charging! $4,000 for 43 kW of power is a little under $0.10/watt, and that's a very, very, possibly too low cost for power electronics. For comparison, one of the cheapest CHAdeMO quick chargers is the Nissan QC, about to come out, that is $10,000 for 50 kW.
So I believe SELECT, high end or special application cars will have 43 kW AC charging, but not entry level and mainstream EVs. Though I also think every EV should have at least a 10kW onboard charger ($1500 included) and an option to go up to at least 20kW ($1500 option) just like the Model S!�
Apr 10, 2012
Kevin Sharpe I've heard similar off the record comments at various Nissan and Renault events that I've attended. Renault have said that the Fluence and Kangoo were designed for specific customers and as they move towards mass market vehicles they are free to implement more useful fast charging (which IMO is 43kW 3 Phase in Europe today).�
Apr 10, 2012
ElectricVehicle 3 phase makes much more sense in the European markets where 3 phase distribtution is much more pervasive. In the US, the high voltage local feeders to suburban residential areas tend to be single phase, so three phase is not as available. Larger commercial areas and larger multi-tenant dwellings are likely to have 3 phase in the US.
With a high power charger, you get to choose if you want the weight and expense on the vehicle or as part of the charging infrastructure.
I think we'll need both for some time to come... I'm very interested in following the 43 kW AC fast charging worldwide and the US. I certainly see good application for it in the US, even though it probably won't be as ubiquitous as J1772 or a lower power wireless in the future.
When cars vastly outnumber charging spots, it becomes more economical to have the charger offboard. But that also assumes that the charging host isn't overly cost sensitive and is willing to install a DC fast charger. So having the charger on car, means the install costs less for the host if 3 phase is already available, but the host still has to be willing to go to the time and expense of getting permits and doing some facilities work to install a 43 kW AC fast charger.
I'm thinking we need some 43 kW AC fast chargers with the charger on the vehicle for delivery trucks, taxis, etc. where there are many destinations relative to the number of vehicles and the stop time at each destination is 5 minutes to an hour.
For passenger cars, a couple 20 kW AC fast charge in many places (malls, restaurants, etc.) and 43 kW AC or 50 kW DC fast charge in some places (highways, major destinations) would be nice. 3 kW (12 Miles Per Hour of Charging, MPHC) or 6 kW (25 MPHC) isn't fast enough when you're waiting for the charge. 20 kW (70 MPHC) as an on board charger is pretty nice and can be done single phase if need be. The 43 kW AC should be onboard for some types of vehicles and maybe an option for entry and mid level EVs, maybe standard for performance EVs and those with 300+ mile range.
43 kW AC for the US maket will be YANEVCCS - Yet Another EV Charging Connector Standard! J1772 is single phase and goes up to 19 kW, so it can't be mechanically adopted without additional pins.
There's also the wireless charging, though that seems a few more years out to wide commercial adoption and currenlty mostly under 10 kW from what I've seen. Doesn't seem like there are any wireless options for 20 or 50 kW fast charge.
Certainly exciting times in terms of working all of this out!�
Apr 12, 2012
widodh Please continue the discussion in this topic: Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase? (Part 2))�
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