Thứ Tư, 28 tháng 12, 2016

Amber rear turn signals? part 1

  • Oct 4, 2011
    Stuart
    Below is a suggestion I made to the good people at Tesla. They requested I post it it to the teslamotorsclub forum because they're interested in seeing how much support there is from other people.

    Elon Musk has talked a lot about safety being a priority and I'm very glad about that. But why do the Roadster and the Model S both have red turn signals at the back instead of amber?

    The car already has two other sets of red lights at the back -- the red rear lights and the red brake lights. Having a third meaning for red lights at the back means that when another driver sees a red light at the back of your car, it takes their brain a split second to determine whether that's just a red rear light, or a red brake light, or a red signal that you're about to change lanes. The only visual difference between a driver tapping the brake pedal and a red turn signal is that with tapping the brake pedal both red brake lights blink together, whereas with a turn signal only one red light blinks, but discerning that difference is only possible if the other driver is able to see both the left and right light clusters at the same time. For example, a driver behind you one lane to the left in traffic may only be able to see the left cluster, not the right. When they see a red blink in the left light cluster does that mean you're slowing down, or that you're about to change lanes? The split second of extra time it takes them to realize it's a turn signal instead of a brake light could be, in some cases, the difference between an accident or not.

    NHTSA reports I found on the web seem to support this intuitive reasoning. As is often the case with such studies, the effects can be small, and the causality sometimes unclear, but even if some might claim that the results are inconclusive, it's hard to understand why Tesla would not err on the side of safety.

    Some quotes from "The Influence of Rear Turn Signal Characteristics (September 2008)":

    <http://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/NRD/Multimedia/PDFs/Crash%20Avoidance/2008/811%20037.pdf>

    Some quotes from "Effectiveness of Amber Rear Turn Signals for Reducing Rear Impacts (April 2009)":

    <http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811115.PDF>

    And some other interesting comments I found on the web:

    <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_lighting#Turn_signal_colour>

    <http://mbz.org/articles/lighting/amber/>

    Given that for other markets Tesla has to produce the Model S with amber rear turn signals, why not sell it with the same amber rear turn signals in the US also?
    �
  • Oct 4, 2011
    Doug_G
    Personally, I've always greatly preferred cars with yellow turn blinkers, for all the reasons you describe.
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  • Oct 4, 2011
    Lloyd
    I agree. Amber is required for Europe I believe. Why not make them all the same?
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  • Oct 4, 2011
    TEG
    This has been discussed at length before: turn signals

    I much prefer amber turn signals. The short answer is with one glance at a car you can immediately tell if it is signaling when you see amber.
    With red you have to wait for the flash to recognize the turn signal.
    Also no chance of mistaking a turn signal for a brake light.
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  • Oct 4, 2011
    Adm
    Make it a poll to keep it simple. I am for amber...
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  • Oct 4, 2011
    doug
    I think the last time we talked about this amber was the consensus and that's definitely my preference. I always saw red as a cheesy cost savings measure.
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  • Oct 4, 2011
    Dragon
    I didn't even know that the turn lights for non-european Tesla vehicles are red. I've only once in my life met a car with red turn lights on the street and was a bit confused about it. So I am for free amber lights for everyone!
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  • Oct 5, 2011
    VolkerP
    make it amber for all future Teslas, not only EU.
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  • Oct 5, 2011
    meloccom
    Given that Tesla will be required to make amber turn signals for non-US markets and their relatively low volumes even for the Model S I think they would be crazy to develop a US specific tail light. A compromise might be 'clear' lenses and colored bulbs that can be changed for the relevant preference and market, but that doesn't look likely based on the design of the Beta's tail lights.
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  • Oct 5, 2011
    Tommy
    Whether amber or red, what's much more interresting is that Tesla told him to go here and ask. :rolleyes: Some kind of accolade?
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  • Oct 5, 2011
    NigelM
    I like amber also, from Tesla's viewpoint, using red might be as a means to limit gray market cars rather than a cost savings measure.
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  • Oct 5, 2011
    AnOutsider
    We have amber at the front, why not at the back also?
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  • Oct 5, 2011
    Charged_Up
    Amber for me. It always amused me VW would bring over cars with red turn signals while the EU ones had amber. I always swapped them out.
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  • Oct 5, 2011
    doug
    amber makes sense to me too...
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  • Oct 5, 2011
    vfx
    I meant historically and more generally for American cars. Supposedly green was a historically popular color of dash lighting also because it was the cheapest.
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  • Oct 5, 2011
    mt2
    Another vote for amber turn signals..


    Also amber for top (third) tailight on regen slowing. Red on all three for brake depression.
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  • Oct 5, 2011
    Laurent
    Amber.

    We should all be flattered that Tesla asked him to come ask us. But really, this is a no-brainer.
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  • Oct 5, 2011
    Jaff
    Agreed. This is a no-brainer. I don't understand why they would even consider putting red turning signals. It's unsafe.
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  • Oct 5, 2011
    mt2
    Amber looks good! ...(she always does...:wink: )
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  • 1/1/2015
    guest
    She's no Catalina White!
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  • Oct 5, 2011
    Iz
    Stuart, thanks for the posting and great insight. Amber turn signals for me too! I do not understand why TM would even consider red signals, given the statistics. I often see cars moving into my lane and do not notice the red signal light until they are well in front. Of course this applies to those who actually use their signals.
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  • Oct 5, 2011
    Iz
    Would swapping them out of Model S void the warranty? :biggrin:
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  • Oct 5, 2011
    Doug_G
    I remember following behind a car trying to figure out what the heck he was trying to signal... the thing was blinking like a demented railway crossing! As far as I figure out the behavior was best explained by (a) running lights on, (b) turn blinker on, (c) simultaneously pumping the brakes, and (d) I think one of the bulbs must have been burnt out.

    That's when I realized just how dumb red turn signals are. Even with all that going on yellow turn lights would have made it obvious.
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  • Oct 5, 2011
    widodh
    Since I live in the EU I will get the amber ones, but I also prefer amber! Driving in the US again for the last two weeks I've noticed how hard it is to distinguish the Red brake light from the Turn signal.

    Go for a clear and bright Amber turn indicator, that is much better (and I think it looks better as well)
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  • Oct 6, 2011
    SByer
    Amber, with either a continuous fade between on/off or off being dim and not really off. Like the power light pulsing on a sleeping Mac, but faster.

    But definitely, definitely amber. Irks me that mine are red now.
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  • Oct 6, 2011
    Lloyd
    If they come out red, I will try and find a way to change them. It has been as factor in not buying a particular car for me in the past, or I spent extra $$$ to get it changed.
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  • Oct 6, 2011
    vfx
    So far 100 percent.
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  • Oct 7, 2011
    Stuart
    I'm not going so far as to ask to ask Telsa try to institute new US regulations for light conventions (e.g. amber for "I'm slowing, but only a little bit") � I'm just asking them to take advantage of what US law already allows for better safety, and what most of the rest of the world already requires, and what many other US cars already have.
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  • Oct 7, 2011
    Ardie
    I'll pitch in here and remind us all (I don't think Tesla needs to be reminded) that the NTSB has *always* suggested more lights. Driving with your headlights on. (Apparently, there are places that have a law requiring this.) Incandescent bulbs -> Halogen bulbs -> HID lamps. And now, even those LED headlights that don't have the penetrating power of HIDs, but are easier for others to see you coming. Fog Lamps. Driving Lights. Lights or reflectors in the door edge that illuminate when the door is ajar. Everybody has a white back-up light, even though I don't believe that there is a federal requirement for one. Back in the 70's there there was an addition for side marker position lights. Or wrap-around front and back lenses that hold them. Around 1985 or so, the CHIMSL (Center Hi-Mounted Stop Light) in the rear window was added. Lately, it seems there are new (European) rules requiring that even more lights be in the side mirrors. But wait! There's More! California has a law that if you have your windshield wipers running, you need to have your headlights on. (Curiously, California also has a law forbidding you to run about with just your parking lights on, day or night. Go figure.)

    So. Back to the amber turn signal. I'll agree that it takes a tiny bit less of grey matter computing to detect a blink of light, and the amber color immediately determines the issue that it is a turn signal. If it was red, it might be a brake light, or a possibly a turn signal - the light will have to be watched for a bit more time to confirm it one way or another.

    Ohyeah. You can't make the lights green or blue. I know 18-wheelers seem to be given some latitude on this, especially when they are decked out like rolling Christmas trees during the holiday season.
    And there are even more lights that end-users can slap on the off-road vehicles, but let's not go there.

    I'll also add another note to forward on to Tesla. Just because the lamp is preferred to be amber in the cause of safety, is no reason to sacrifice styling. There are some cars that just look less than they could be with an amber lens in an otherwise clean-looking rear deck. Perhaps a tinted lens can blend (or hide) the amber lens / reflector as long as it is not illuminated, and will present a much more refined and uniform tail. And that is the primary portion of the car that others will see :)

    -- Ardie
    I myself will let my turn signal blink *once* when I depart the freeway and transition to the exit ramp to wake up the tailgater behind me that I'm doing "something" that needs their attention. Haven't been rear-ended yet...
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  • Oct 8, 2011
    doug
    The lens can be clear. A monochromatic LED doesn't have show its color until it's illuminated.
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  • Oct 8, 2011
    vfx
    Who are you in contact with? I'd like to reinforce the thought.
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  • Oct 8, 2011
    S-2000 Roadster
    Is anyone familiar with the actual federal regulations for turn signals? I would not be surprised to learn that there was once a requirement that they be red, and only recently has that been relaxed or refined.

    Federal automotive regulations are often brain-dead, as the required chemical explosives aimed at passengers' faces should make clear. A few decapitated children later, and they realize the mistake...
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  • Oct 8, 2011
    Lloyd
    Wikepedia:
    Turn signal colour



    Until the early 1960s, most front turn signals worldwide emitted white light and most rear turn signals emitted red. Amber front turn signals were voluntarily adopted by the auto industry in the USA for most vehicles beginning in the 1963 model year, though front turn signals were still permitted to emit white light until FMVSS 108 took effect for the 1968 model year, whereupon amber became the only permissible colour for front turn signals. Presently, almost all countries outside North America require that all front, side and rear turn signals produce amber light. In North America the rear signals may be amber or red. International proponents of amber rear signals say they are more easily discernible as turn signals. U.S. studies in the early 1990s demonstrated improvements in the speed and accuracy of following drivers' reaction to stop lamps when the turn signals were amber rather than red.[37][38][39][40][41] American regulators and other proponents of red rear turn signals have historically asserted there is no proven benefit to amber signals. However, a 2008 U.S. study by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) suggests vehicles with amber rear signals rather than red ones are up to 28% less likely to be involved in certain kinds of collisions,[42] and a 2009 NHTSA study determined there is a significant overall safety benefit to amber rather than red rear turn signals.[43]

    There is some evidence that turn signals with colourless clear lenses and amber bulbs may be less conspicuous in bright sunlight than those with amber lenses and colourless bulbs.[44]
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  • Oct 8, 2011
    vfx
    Another reason the Model S could be the safest car on the road.
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  • Oct 9, 2011
    Stuart
    I was talking with Alex, manager of the Santana Row showroom, who, like all Tesla employees, has been super-helpful and very nice. You are free to contact him directly as well, but I'm not sure it would achieve anything extra at this stage. He already knows about this discussion thread, and has passed it onto other Tesla management and designers, who are interested in our opinions on this subject. I think open public discussion of the topic (as on this forum) is more compelling than a few private emails.
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  • Oct 10, 2011
    strider
    Model S already has this - the inner white part of the tail light glows red when you hit the brakes or turn signals. I assume it's white when reversing.
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  • Oct 10, 2011
    TEG
    Off vs On:
    offon.jpg
    Hmmm... Maybe it does have that big round LED assembly behind there?
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  • Oct 10, 2011
    TEG
    FYI, I think the backup lights are separate, here:
    sback1.jpg
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  • Oct 10, 2011
    TEG
    By the way, I still don't know the purpose of cars with these different kind of (seemingly temporary) tail lights, but someone was obviously doing something with amber turn signals in some sort of prototype test:
    amberled.jpg
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  • Oct 10, 2011
    Mycroft
    Amber this, amber that; can someone please explain why this is so critical? If someone is slowing for a turn, why does it matter what color the rear turn signal lamp (if it's even being used) is?

    I mean, it's nice to know that the *reason* someone is slowing down is because they're turning, but it's not necessary to keep me from running up their tailpipe.

    Seriously, what am I missing?
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  • Oct 10, 2011
    Mycroft
    It's sure going to take a long time to drop some anachronistic expressions. Hit the *gas* pedal. Run up their *tail pipe*. *Dial* the telephone. :smile:
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  • Oct 10, 2011
    doug
    I think it's more useful for lane changes on the highway. E.g., is the guy in the lane to my right slowing down or about to cut in front of me?
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  • Oct 10, 2011
    TEG
    A motorcyclist lane splitting would appreciate being able to quickly tell which cars are about to change lanes.
    (Assuming that the car bothers to signal, and cares to warn the cyclist to not try to pass.)

    Where the color matters to me the most is in very busy multi-lane highway night use.
    Driving in LA on the 405 it tends to be a sea of brake lights with so much 'stop-and-go', but if I see a grouping of yellow/amber up ahead in one lane I know that lane has an issue and I should start finding a different lane. (Not that I have been on the 405 recently, but I still remember how I felt driving it.)
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  • Oct 10, 2011
    SByer
    I don' think you drive the 405 as much as you occupy a slowly moving space on it.
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  • Oct 10, 2011
    zack
    Amber turn signals. Please. Anything to protect me in my little carbon-fiber electron-manipulating beast.
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  • Oct 10, 2011
    mt2
    From Lloyd's post a few ahead of yours ...
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  • Oct 10, 2011
    TEG
    It was many many years ago when it actually kind-of moved a bit.
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  • Oct 10, 2011
    Mycroft
    In that case, I'm all for it.
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  • Oct 10, 2011
    Ardie
    My name is Ardie and I am a 405 commuter.

    (Hello, Ardie.)

    Seriously, since half my commute is before sunrise, the turn signal color might have some consequence for me.
    I suspect its too late in the game to make design changes, and I'm sure that whatever Tesla offers, I will be happy to become their customer.

    -- Ardie
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  • Oct 10, 2011
    Stuart
    If I were asking Tesla to make design changes I'd agree with you, but since they have to sell cars with amber turn signals in the rest of the world anyway, I'm just asking them to not make a different version for the US market (or at least offer US buyers the option of getting their cars with the worldwide lighting configuration).
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  • Oct 12, 2011
    strider
    Has anyone investigated buying amber signals for Roadsters? Over on the Corvette Forum we used to run group buys where someone in Europe would buy a bunch of replacement taillights and ship them over to the States. Tesla might be more difficult since a franchise dealer will sell to anyone to make money while Tesla might raise an eyebrow if someone in the UK walks into the London Service Centre asking for 10 sets of rear indicators. But curious if anyone's asked?
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  • Oct 12, 2011
    Tommy
    Maybe I am missing something here, but when I toured the factory the beta's all had an amber light in the rear (see photo). Is it possible they already intend to use amber. My question to forum members is if the amber light in the photo is not for a turn signal than what exactly is it for. In any case, given the amber light is already present, I wouldn't think it to difficult to have amber turn signals incorporated into the final design.

    View attachment 3107
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  • Oct 12, 2011
    AnOutsider
    That's the tail lights from the Alphas. IIRC, they were just used in testing. The beta tails have a pipe-light effect:

    [?IMG]

    [?IMG]
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  • Oct 12, 2011
    TEG
    Actually the Alphas had yet another prototype LED "slap together" arrangement.
    alphalight.jpg

    Those round ones seen on that one car in the Tesla factory were probably some kind of experiment, and temporary test. We may never see a car like that on the street.
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  • Oct 12, 2011
    AnOutsider
    One can hope.
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  • Oct 12, 2011
    Tommy
    Yes, they could be some sort of experiment, but as this beta was configured with amber/red lights, I am making the assumption that this configuration will be the one incorporated into the final design. The final look of the tail light assembly pipe-light not with standing, if the purpose of the beta is to test the function of the rear lights and Tesla intended to use all red lighting, it just seems that's what they would have shown. Some circular logic here perhaps, or just wishful thinking.
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  • Oct 12, 2011
    TEG
    My take has always been that it was a test fixture - temporarily put on that chassis to test the wiring harness.
    It is easy to install/remove those kind of lighting assemblies so they could swap them around on short notice.
    I think the ones on the cars driving around outside were the closest representation of what they intend for production.
    Odd parts inside the factory probably weren't representative of any future directions.
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  • Oct 12, 2011
    WhiteKnight
    While we're talking about turn signal characteristics that the Europeans enjoy but we Americans do not, I would like to put in a plug for the turn signal stalk being able to register a slight up or down which makes the turn signal blink 3 times and stop. I had my current car re-programmed and it now allows me to do this and I love it. Which is funny to say about a turn signal. But the ability on the highway to give a light tap and signal a lane change without having to then manually turn the signal stalk back into the unblinking position is a simple but very nice touch.

    Late to the game? Ford adds three blink tap to turn signal
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  • Oct 12, 2011
    AnOutsider
    Yes, when I went to the event on the 1st, I had a mini that didn't do it. I ended up just holding the stalk for a couple seconds to simulate. I think I had this on my wishlist, but I haven't seen anything about it being included. Perhaps a software tweak can enable it.
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  • Oct 12, 2011
    Doug_G
    I don't like the auto three blink tap. I like to be able to decide for myself how many blinks I want.
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  • Oct 13, 2011
    S-2000 Roadster
    I suppose you're aware that the Roadster already has a momentary switch on the turn signal stalk that will not lock in place. You can signal as long as you want and then just let go. I'm quite certain that the Model S will be able to signal a turn without the stalk being locked on to that signal.

    In other words, you should not be forced to manually turn the signal stalk back to the unblinking position.

    I agree with Doug, I prefer to be in control of the duration. If I make a slower lane change, I might want 4 blinks. When there's nobody around, I may only allow 1 blink just to satisfy a State Trooper who wants to issue a ticket to the only driver on the road in the middle of the night...
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  • Oct 13, 2011
    AnOutsider
    Well in that case, for both of you guys you can just put the regular turn signals on. What you're describing in the roadster though is akin to what I was doing in the mini and is not the lane change signal we are talking about. This is a simple tap to get 3 blinks. I often hear people scoff at the idea, but most end up liking it in practice, and those who don't aren't inconvenienced by it being there.
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  • Oct 13, 2011
    vfx
    Never heard of the three blink option. I don't see any reason why I would HAVE to have only one blink. The state trooper would be even more likely to pas on me with three in stead on one blink.
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  • Oct 13, 2011
    vfx
    The white car always made me think their intent was amber. Why would they not just put two red lenses in the test fixture? The black one even confirms it. They are thinking two color. The light pipe is the anomaly and certainly not a final product, so bulb colors can change when the make the final order from he vendor.
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  • Oct 13, 2011
    Tommy
    To further the discussion, if indeed a test fixture to test the wiring harness, one reason to use two different colored lenses for testing purposes is to easily identify working circuits. By using this two color testing method, Tesla has bolstered the argument for amber turn signals rather than red: If two colors help differentiate in the testing environment they should help in the "wild" as well. I agree with you vfx on their intent is to use amber.
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  • Oct 13, 2011
    AnOutsider
    Yeah, it's really handy. If you ever find yourself at a VW or Audi (or any German car) dealer, just sit in one and tap the stalk in either direction. Since Elon models so much after Porsche, here's to hoping he includes that :)

    I agree too. My thinking was the same. Use white, red and yellow to test the proper lights (though I don't remember seeing white). I also thought the lights reminded me of the roadster so maybe that was something they were considering or just reusing pieces from. *shrug*. Not a HUGE fan of the current tails, but like them much more than the 2-3 circle ones or the alphas that TEG dug up. I hope they change (and include amber when they do), but I wouldn't lose too much sleep if they don't.
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  • Oct 13, 2011
    Doug_G
    No, I understand what you're talking about. I've driven a couple of rental cars that did that. I found it highly annoying. The fool thing was still blinking after I had already completed a lane change.
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  • Oct 13, 2011
    AnOutsider
    Not to get off track here... But I've heard of it being too short, but too long? It's 3 blinks. I can't see it blinking more than once after you changed lanes... Unless of course you're the complete opposite of local drivers here who take forever to change lanes!
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  • Oct 13, 2011
    Doug_G
    Yes, one extra blink. Still annoying and potentially confusing to other drivers.
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  • Oct 13, 2011
    AnOutsider
    Haha, less confusing than those that throw on their left turn signal, move into the left lane and promptly forget it's on. Can't count how many miles I've driven behind people who have done that.
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  • Oct 13, 2011
    Doug_G
    True, but IMHO only an idiot would fail to notice that. Not that you'd ever come across an idiot on a highway...
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  • Oct 13, 2011
    TEG
    I have seen manufacturers switch back and forth from year to year. For instance, the 2000 Ford Ranger EV I got had red rear turn indicators, but I bought the tail light assemblies from a 1999 model to get the amber turn signals. I saw similar things with Ford Taurus / Mercury Sable switch back and forth. I don't know what motivates them to switch like that. Maybe some "bean counters" take over and say "we save $.015 per assembly if we buy red instead of amber" or some equivalent weak argument.
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  • Oct 13, 2011
    Dragon
    Humans tend to do stupid things, it doesn't matter which system they use. You could argument infinitely. For example with the 3times blink there would be people activating it, letting it blink 3 times but not changing lane. I am satisfied with the two blink options we have.
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  • Oct 15, 2011
    vfx
    If it's still blinking after completing a lane change, then it's all about "timing".
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  • Oct 16, 2011
    Stuart
    I've asked Tesla here how much it would cost for them to install the UK rear lights for me. Still waiting for a response...

    On my next trip to England I may try to track down the Tesla people there and see if they'll sell me a pair of UK rear lights!
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  • Oct 16, 2011
    Stuart
    I'd never heard of this before, but I like the idea that a gentle tap on the turn signal stalk produces three blinks and then stops.

    Three blinks seems about right to me. If you signal a lane change and then have completed it in less than three blinks, then you weren't so much as signaling an intended maneuver as letting other drivers know after-the-fact of what you just did. (I've seen many California drivers who act as if they think the turn signal stalk is something for their fingers to catch on as they're in the act of turning the wheel! I don't have any illusions about being able to change how other people drive, but for those of us who do try to let other drivers know what we're planning to do before we do it, three blinks seems like a reasonable amount of advance notice.)
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  • Oct 16, 2011
    neroden
    Absolutely. Amber turn lights -- why not? If you have to do it for Europe, why not here? It certainly doesn't hurt!
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  • Oct 21, 2011
    TEG
    Are these amber?

    6207250583_e282993dc5_b.jpg
    (To the right of the brake light...)
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  • Oct 21, 2011
    Iz
    Looks very nice with the amber. However, is that an actual picture or TEG's magic Photoshop skills? :biggrin:
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  • Oct 21, 2011
    Tommy
    Nope, unless he managed to doctor both photos I have of the car as well showing yellow in the rear lights. This one shows the yellow fading into red. Maybe Tesla has come up with a very novel way to distinguish the turn signal; or perhaps it is the strobe effect of LED lighting that is causing a color shift as viewed through the camera.

    [?IMG]

    View attachment 3205
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  • Oct 21, 2011
    Tommy
  • Oct 21, 2011
    TEG
    Well I have to say that I am a little uncertain about what is actually going on with all those photos.
    Also, is the red car identical to the white in terms of light behavior?
    I am fairly sure I only ever saw red on both parts of the outer housing (on the body), but I didn't recall seeing the inner light (on the hatch) actually light up when I was at the factory. I don't think they were using the turn signals or hazard lights much if at all.
    I am thinking that the picture I recently posted did finally show hazard lights in use, and that the other photo 'Tommy' posted was just some trick of light / color distortion from the photo.

    Maybe the next time someone sees a beta at a store they can ask someone from Tesla to turn on the hazard flashers to double check.

    Maybe they do have two colors (red & amber) of LEDs behind the "light pipe" shapes and can change the color depending if for brakes or turn signals?
    These pictures aren't helping me figure it out for sure.
    It still may not be final production intent anyways.
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  • Oct 21, 2011
    Tommy
    They may indeed be the hazard flashers, AFAIK, the photo was taken upon the grand entrance of Elon; using the flashers to signal the beginning of the ceremony. A check of the videos of the ceremony might "enlighten" us so to speak on the lighting motif of the Tesla.
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  • Oct 24, 2011
    strider
    When we went to see the red car at Menlo the wkend after the Fremont event someone did turnon the hazards while we were standing behind the car and it was definitely red - both inner and outer lights. Even the "white" pipes flashed red.
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  • Oct 24, 2011
    Doug_G
    A few possibilities come to mind, but I suspect this might be the explanation:

    This looks like a long-ish exposure as it is motion blurred. Under these conditions the lights may well be bright enough to saturate the camera. In this case only the red pixels would saturate. There will be some leakage into the green and blue pixels, as the color filters are not perfect and tend to leak especially in the infrared. As a result the color washes out and looks much less red.
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  • Oct 24, 2011
    TEG
    Yeah, probably something like that. It seems that photographing LEDs can produce unexpected results at times.
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  • Oct 30, 2011
    shark2k
    Just want to add to this thread that I went to the Model S NYC event and turned the turn signals on and checked them out on the Red beta. They were indeed red. I brought up this thread to two Tesla emplyees and the one guy said he would bring it up. After explaining to him the main reasons why (safety/easier to discern) he said he understood why even though he had never thought about that.

    -Shark2k
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  • Oct 31, 2011
    Stuart
    At the factory tour rides on 2nd October I asked the driver to put the turn signals on for me while the next set of passengers were loading, so I could check the color � and the rear lights were clearly red on that car.

    I also checked at the Tesla showroom in Santana Row the following weekend, and those rear turn signals were red too.

    It seems pretty clear Tesla is planning to make the Model S this way for the US market, unless we're able to persuade them to reconsider (or at least to offer us US customers the option of buying the Model S with the rest-of-the-world rear turn signals configuration).

    Maybe some people will think red "looks better". Speaking for myself I don't care what it looks like � I'm not looking at the back of my car when I'm driving it. What I care about is being safe. If I have to choose between "safe" or "pretty" I'll pick "safe" � especially for something I can't even see!
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  • Oct 31, 2011
    medved
    That's what i think too. I am for amber.
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  • Oct 31, 2011
    Norbert
    Or maybe those betas just didn't have all the necessary cabling yet....so they used one light for both purposes. ;)
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  • Apr 12, 2012
    Stuart
    I got some new information from Tesla today. The decision to use red rear turn signals was not an arbitrary whim of fashion.

    Tesla tells me that US regulations require both brake lights and turn signals to have a certain minimum area. Also, for some reason, light area on the rear lift gate does not count. It has to be light area on the fixed part of the car body. Given this space constraint, there isn't enough room for both a brake light and a separate turn signal. This means that the brake light and the turn signal have to share space (conceptually overlap) in the rear light cluster, which means they can't be different colors.

    Apparently other markets, including Europe, specify an amber turn indicator function but do not specify any minimum functional area.

    It seems that US regulations, while ostensibly created in the interest of safety, are actually having the unintended consequence of reducing safety in pursuit of some rigid doctrine that favors size (and not-in-liftgate-ness) over color and effectiveness.
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  • Apr 12, 2012
    AnOutsider
    Aren't the light pipes are LEDs? I recall on my GLI I was able to get amber turn signals working while the brake lights were red. Can't remember if they were from the same LEDs, though I thought they were. In any case, if they have yellows for the European homogenization then there's a chance for us yanks to import the good stuff like we always seem to have to (the GLI's tails were imported from a Euro spec vehicle)
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  • Apr 12, 2012
    doug
    Of course red and amber LEDs can be manufactured in the same package or even just interspersed over the same area, but I suppose then there are cost and styling concerns.
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  • Apr 12, 2012
    SByer
    Styling concerns? With the cheesy plastic lenses on the Roadster rear lights? It's one of the very few parts of the car bug me aesthetically.
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  • Apr 12, 2012
    doug
    Ehh... I was just giving them an out. Clearly if they wanted to do it, it could be done.

    We were of course talking about the Model S.
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  • Apr 13, 2012
    Doug_G
    Combining function might work okay for red brakes and red turn lights, but wouldn't it be a bit weird when you hit the brakes and signaled a turn? The light would be changing color and brightness. I wonder what the regulatory authorities would say.
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  • Apr 13, 2012
    ElSupreme
    I had to replace my GTI rear taillights to get amber turn signals. And it turns out run a wire from the front as US spec only get 3 wires (Brake, Tail, return). The Euro spec taillights have 4 wires (Brake, Blink, Tail, return). Then I had to do some VAG-COM work. Well I bought Euro spec LED taillights and they have a ring of LED. Half are red, half are amber. When the blinker goes on the brake lights go off. Now the taillights are also the brake lights, just dim. They stay on during blinking, but they get washed out you have to really look (and be really close) to tell they stay lit. Hell my blinkers may be illegal.

    But I don't really care because my brake lights are much brighter and much quicker than my old incandescent bulbs. I would be willing to source some euro spec taillights when they come available and change them on my car. Maybe I can get a rear fog lamp too.

    I think red blinkers are horrible. I wish they were not allowed. But then again it seems that only about 30% of the public ever uses a blinker it really doesn't matter. Hell yesterday I was driving behind someone with their left blinker stuck on. They turned it off, and a second later turned right.
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  • Apr 13, 2012
    Lloyd
    Perhaps we should start a list for a group purchase for when the time comes to replace the light lenses. I will be first on the list. How can we do this on the forum??
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  • Apr 13, 2012
    doug
    No. When indicating a turn, that light would blink amber (instead of red). You still have the other tail light and the CHMSL to be solid red for braking.
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  • Apr 13, 2012
    Robert.Boston
    In Boston, using turn signals is treasonous -- you're giving information to the enemy!
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  • Apr 13, 2012
    Doug_G
    Funnily enough, Ottawa drivers are a lot more tame, but they have this annoying habit of trying to block you when you want to merge. The Roadster is great for that because they don't have enough time to react.

    Okay, I think it's reasonable for it to suppress the brake light and blink amber.

    There is precedent for this sort of thing; I've noticed some cars now dim the headlight on one side so oncoming cars can see the turn blinker. Great for the oncoming cars... but I've always wondered whether the driver can see where he's going. :confused:
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  • Apr 13, 2012
    BYT_P1837
    Sadly, most people I think have never used or are even aware that their car even has a turn indicator as witnessed every morning on my way to the office.
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  • Apr 13, 2012
    Trnsl8r
    When I lived in Wisconsin, I learned from other drivers that one blinker should be left on at all times, presumably for decorative purposes. Especially while driving on the highway in the slow lane (i.e. left lane).
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  • Apr 13, 2012
    jerry33
    I had heard that at some random number after 50,000 blinks, the wiring shorts out and sets fire to the gas tank. So you have to be very sparing of how often you use them.
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  • Apr 13, 2012
    Trnsl8r
    Model S = no gas tank. Awesome, I'll drive with my hazards on all the time. Fashion statement.
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  • Apr 13, 2012
    BYT_P1837
    Here's a winkin' at you kid! ;)
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  • Apr 14, 2012
    Doug_G
    Once I was just behind and to the right of a car with its left turn blinker on and forgotten. Then it switched off, and he immediately swung right into my lane, forcing me to brake. Then he turned the left turn blinker back on again.

    I believe he never realized the blinker was running. He thought he just safely signaled a right-hand lane change!
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  • Apr 14, 2012
    markwj
    Really makes you wonder how often some drivers look at their instruments. Of course, in my roadster, I can't see them behind the steering wheel ;-)
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  • Apr 15, 2012
    dsm363
    Yeah. I sometimes what the Lotus designers were drinking when they designed the Elise in terms of visibility of controls, dials and the fixed steering wheel.
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  • Apr 15, 2012
    vfx
    They were thinking, "I'm 5 foot tall, this works fine for me!"
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  • Apr 17, 2012
    strider
    I'm 5'9" w/ a 33" inseam and the Roadster controls are perfect for me. Sometimes it pays to be average ;)
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  • Apr 17, 2012
    rogbmw
    Are you sure you are not from the north, and come to visit Florida in the Winters? It seems that when it rains just a little bit, all the snowbirds here turn on their flashers to say it is raining.....Anoying as Heck!!!!! But, I found out a way to get them to turn them off...just follow them and flash your brights at the car in front of you in rhythm with their flashers....But of course we would never do that !!!!!
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  • Apr 17, 2012
    Doug_G
    Really? I'm 5'10" with a 32" inseam and I can't see the top third of the speedometer! I guess that cumulative 2" makes a big difference.
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  • Apr 17, 2012
    CurrieG
    I have aways prefered Amber Turn Signals.... I also think the additional colour looks good in the tail lights.
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  • Apr 17, 2012
    goyogi
    A generous posterior can also elevate the eye level to affect visibility. ;)
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  • Apr 18, 2012
    Doug_G
    Thanks, but I'm sure my butt isn't THAT big. :scared:
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  • Jun 11, 2012
    widodh
    I just watched this video: News Videos and Video Clip | NBC Bay Area

    At 1:47 you see the line change indicator and that's amber.

    Don't know what the other turn signals do, but I expect them to be amber as well?
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  • Jun 11, 2012
    ElSupreme
    Those are basically required by law to be yellow/amber (along with the front indicators) in the USA. The rear indicators are allowed to be red or amber.

    Basically IIRC the way turn indicator rules are written in the USA is as follows:

    Turn signals:
    They can't be white
    They must be red or yellow/amber

    ... later in the rules

    Red lights may only appear on the rear of the vehicle.

    which forces all of the other indicators to be yellow.
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  • Jun 11, 2012
    AnOutsider
    Yes, the SIDE marker, but I understood it that the REAR indicators also needed to be amber. They're currently red.
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  • Jun 11, 2012
    AnOutsider
    They also can't appear too close to DRLs apparently, which is why Audis "wink"
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