Jul 25, 2016
tsla007 That comes out to 1111 gallons of gas approx. or 50k miles.
I don't know about any of you but I won't be using it much.
Personally, I think 500.00 might be the correct amount. That's 10k miles of gas.
No, I don't think I'll ever get to charge up at sc stations for that number of miles in my life.
I have solar/wind and water power.
I probably won't be happy paying at the charger due to hacking.
I just might not get it at all.
Just my thoughts.�
Jul 25, 2016
MassModel3 I've not been able to justify the price. Most of my driving is local, and only a few times have I watched my battery tell me it's really wanting a charge. And I've always been close to home when that happened. Besides, there's always ChargePoint, worst case scenario.
Certainly not worth $2.5K to me. I'd hit superchargers just because I could, which would be pretty silly, too.�
Jul 25, 2016
JeffK In no place does it say supercharging for the Model 3 will be $2500.... There is no "currently" it's just a figment of your imagination. At projected Model 3 sales Tesla would earn more money at $500 then they did with the Model S at $2500. Anything more than $500 and people are not going to want it. Also they may do a subscription model.
When they are ready they will announce what they are doing with supercharging at a later date. Until then, there was a whole other thread on this topic. How would you prefer to pay for Supercharging?�
Jul 25, 2016
Saghost Not sure where you got this "currently" from...
Every car sold today includes supercharging in the price. The original 60 cost $2000 on delivery or $2500 later, and the enable later for those early cars may still be on the website, but it in no way follows that Tesla expects to charge that for the model 3�
Jul 25, 2016
ecarfan If Tesla has a "per Supercharge" payment system for the Model 3, it will not involve getting out your charge card at a Supercharger location since those locations do not have the necessary hardware for that payment method. Tesla will have your payment information in their database in a server somewhere.
At this time no one outside of Tesla knows if the Model 3 will have a "one time" Supercharger option cost or not, and if they do offer that we don't know what it will cost.
Your post makes a lot of unfounded assumptions.�
Jul 25, 2016
aja2460 I did not my P85 (with Supercharging included in the price) with the idea that I would save money. I use supercharging to allow me to travel long distances and enjoy the best car in the world while doing it. Maybe 25 or 30, 600 mile round trips across the state (Washington...grandkids), Eastern Oregon 4or 5 times, California a couple of times. All delightful journeys.
If I did not want or need to be more than 100 miles from my house I wouldn't need it.
Remember that we are paying for both the electrons and the infrastructure that is required to replace focal fuels.
Just my thoughts...�
Jul 25, 2016
TexasEV The OP and thread title are incorrect. Could a moderator edit it? As others have noted, this was the price added to a specific Model S, the original 60 kWh version, if added after the car was ordered. Not at all relevant to a different model with unknown pricing at this time, and which will come out 4 years after the S60.�
Jul 25, 2016
TaoJones Poo-poo (ppu or pay-per-use) schemes are antithetical to Tesla's mission, and unnecessary about six different ways.
Instead of a subscription model, as interesting as that is, I envision that similar to the DriverAssist (AP) 30-day test drives, Tesla might offer the same for SC usage. Although maybe not, since the vast majority of owners do not use SCs with any regularity if at all today, and that model will hold for the Model 3, although perhaps at a lower rate.
Regardless, Tesla's commitment to both DENSITY as well as DISTANCE has worked very well so far, to the point that 97% of the SC network at least in North America is a tumbleweed factory. Adding friction to a frictionless system to partially resolve a 3% problem is pure foolishness.
I would much prefer that Tesla embark upon a sustained campaign of user education and best practices reinforcement to reduce the #1 clear and present problem associated with SCs. And it ain't locals and it ain't livery. It's ICEing by our own. And unless and until *that* problem is solved, there is no faster way to turn an 8-stall SC into a 2-stall SC, with all of the cascading problems associated therewith.
Along with educating owners to be considerate and to get back to their chariots a few minutes before charging is complete would be an opportunity to educate them about pairing, the avoidance of which is another way to increase efficienciy associated with a scarce resource.�
Jul 25, 2016
CuriousG For someone that claims to have sold his 33,000 shares of Tesla which you say was bought at $27.xx, you can sure be a Scrooge McDuck and I'm talking about the original Scrooge.�
Jul 25, 2016
SW2Fiddler 'Tisn't.�
Jul 25, 2016
zenmaster Pay per use would be great for the majority of people who don't happen to take long distance trips often.�
Jul 25, 2016
Jersey Shore Tom Well, if we used the last upfront price for Supercharging, $2,000 (I don't know if that would be the Model 3 price, but it seems a better starting point than pulling a number out of thin air) . $2.79 per gallon, the current average price of gas in California, where our recent seller of Tesla stock lives. And finally, 36 miles per gallon, the average EPA rating for new cars. We end up with an upfront price that would buy him 25,806 miles worth of gas. If the car stays on the road for 10 years, that would 2,508 miles per year. Perhaps still not for everyone, but if you travel much it could be a bargain.�
Jul 25, 2016
Az_Rael Well, technically the current price IS $2500, but only classic 60s can purchase it
�
Jul 25, 2016
S'toon That's what was said earlier. The original S60 price for supercharging was $2000 if purchased at the time of ordering the car, or $2500 if it was upgraded after.
But that price has nothing to do with what will be the price of supercharging will be on the Model 3.
The OP is just putting out misinformation.�
Jul 25, 2016
joer00 Sorry, but this calculations are stupid. Just go ahead and look what you get when you "pay per use". An almost non existing network of crappy chargers which mostly fail and if they do not fail, they are occupied by another EV in addition to being somewhere where there is nothing to do and far way form where you need it for long distance travel.
The SC network is one very big part of Tesla's success and a main reason that people are suddenly interested in EV's. You cannot make money with operating chargers, it's the same like it was with WIFI for coffee shops. Tesla got it right and the 2000 $ is not for "saving vs gas costs", it's for making the EV revolution work.
I lived 3 years without a home charger and after it was available used mostly Chademo to charge. After that experience I GLADLY pay 2k for having an awesome fast network with chargers that always work, are available (never had to wait at a SC so far) and are at locations where there are interesting things to do.�
Jul 25, 2016
ucmndd There's an assumption built in there that the cost of supercharging should have a proportional relationship to the cost of fuel. I just don't see the connection. The supercharger value proposition is based on time and convenience.�
Jul 25, 2016
mspohr You aren't just buying electricity. You are buying the ability to take long distance trips with 30 minute stops for charging rather than staying overnight at a Level 2 charger every few hundred miles.�
Jul 25, 2016
zenmaster Tesla's whole idea of the supercharger network is to facilitate long distance travel. The price of supercharging should have a proportional relationship to the network's utilization. The more long distance travel, the more the network is funded.The value proposition is to make it possible to travel long distances with today's battery tech. The longer the range, the less chargers required.�
Jul 25, 2016
melindav and paying to use that L2 charger at a huge premium over home energy rates.
Instead of comparing the expected upfront SC fee to gas (which in the OPs calc my local fuel prices and my car's MPG make the OPs calc look just laughable as if stacking the deck) the expected SC fee should be against what it would cost to use public charging stations.�
Jul 25, 2016
littlecloudy Post number 26 in this thread explains everything:
Now you can see why I sold all my shares�
Jul 25, 2016
CHG-ON I paid to enable supercharging on my 9-14 P85+. I totally get the OP's point. But I didn't do it thinking that I would either save money over gas or even break even. I did it to have the functionality. And I will say, it has proved priceless. While 95% of my charging is at home, there are places that I could not get to without a supercharger. Or, I would have to wait for a ridiculous amount of time at a L2 charger, which would make my trips untenable. So I paid for the incredible convenience. I must say, plugging in for 30 minutes while I grocery shop before visiting family and coming out to a charged up car is about as good as it gets.
I would be totally fine with a per kw charge over paying up front. I am sure I would end up spending less. But it wasn't an option then and still is not. It will be very interesting to see how this goes. It's still much cheaper to pay for electricity than gas. But I wonder about the psychological impact of knowing that one would be billed whenever they use it. It might cut down on locals taking advantage of the "free" charging they now have, thus freeing up slots. Though I have yet to see any valid data on how much of a problem this might be.�
Jul 25, 2016
timk225 Paying about $3 every time I plug into a supercharger feels about right to me. I don't use it, I don't pay. Seems fair, to me.�
Jul 25, 2016
MassModel3 Well, 'Tis for me (currently). But as so many have pointed out, 'tis ain't gonna be the case with the 3. Not by a long shot, I'm sure.�
Jul 25, 2016
ohmman Mod note: Changed title to be more accurate.�
Jul 25, 2016
CuriousG Well the guy is either:
A) Pathological liar
B) Full of excrement
C) On here to create FUD
D) All of the above�
Jul 25, 2016
xav- What if it is $3,000? I really wonder... ? Should I log a new thread for that?
�
Jul 25, 2016
Az_Rael I fully expect the "lifetime plan" to be painfully expensive. Tesla does not price things cheaply as a general rule. So I would guess it will be at least $2500 and possibly more.
They may be wanting more people signing up for the new "plans" however that pans out. I am guessing the idea would be revenue generated over time vs a one time fee (either by monthly or yearly or by hour, etc).�
Jul 25, 2016
MP3Mike But that would generate enough revenue to build and maintain the Supercharger network, so there would be no network to plug in to.
How do people not get that?�
Jul 25, 2016
S'toon This makes absolutely no sense. Why on Earth would Tesla charge more for lifetime supercharging than it does on the Model S? Especially considering the car costs half as much as the S.�
Jul 25, 2016
TaoJones Plenty of ChaDeMo already offer that.
While your point is well-taken, why should Tesla clutter up the SC network with poo-poo (ppu or pay-per-use schemes) because you want to save $2,500? Which btw it probably won't cost for the Model 3 SC access, but still - a used ChaDeMo adapter and $19.95/30 days of unlimited usage (AeroVironment network) of full-strength, fully-functional ChaDeMo) is about as close to free as it gets.�
Jul 25, 2016
Az_Rael Because they may not want people on lifetime all-you-can eat plans. That's probably unsustainable in the long run.�
Jul 25, 2016
xav- My argument was that the average model 3 user is more likely to depend on superchargers for local charging than the average MS user (younger folks, not as likely to live in single family house, or to own etc).. This is especially true in expensive parts of the country where the tesla brand is hugely popular such as the sf Bay Area, LA area etc�
Jul 26, 2016
JeffK They've actually mentioned how it is, in fact, sustainable and energy costs are negligible... Also, "lifetime all-you-can eat" plans separate them from the competition.�
Jul 26, 2016
TexasEV Reallly? All 85s always had supercharging included in the base price of the car. Only in 60s was it optional to pay to enable supercharging.�
Jul 26, 2016
Az_Rael Right, but in that same talk, Straubel talked about how they would need to "phase in a financial transaction" in the future. I think we might be seeing the beginning of that with the Model 3.�
Jul 26, 2016
zenmaster The SC network is a stop-gap necessary evil, in place while battery tech matures to enable much longer distances between recharge. Rather they use those millions on battery tech R&D rather than building filling stations. Meanwhile a long-distance travel, demand based funding model would support the necessary development just fine. Tesla already has the stats for travel locations.�
Jul 26, 2016
Shawn Snider ......... The SC's aren't a Gas Pump...... They don't have built-in Visa Card readers........ Why do people keep saying Tesla is going to do some retarded 'subscription' SC program.... /headshake�
Jul 26, 2016
JeffK In the original patent US008643330, they describe cash, debit, and subscription models as well.�
Jul 26, 2016
SolarUnderwood You're absolutely right, but superchargers are meant to be a traveling convenience that saves time. That said, it's still probably not worth $2500 for most.�
Jul 26, 2016
Shawn Snider Link to the video/audio where Straubel says this please.�
Jul 26, 2016
Shawn Snider That patent either doesnt exist or is unsearchable.�
Jul 26, 2016
Shawn Snider I'm not a rich man, and I don't mind paying $2,500 for a SC system that Elon has put in place. I sense a lot of fresh accounts on TMC are Trolls.�
Jul 26, 2016
ohmman They don't need readers. Tesla knows if you're charging. Your phone doesn't have a built in credit card reader, but you're still able to perform financial transactions on it. Apple bills me each time I buy an app, and also each month for iCloud storage.
I don't think it's necessary to be so dismissive of others' ideas.�
Jul 26, 2016
JeffK Patent Images�
Jul 26, 2016
ecarfan For Tesla to implement a pay per use charging system at the Superchargers it would not be necessary for the Supercharger locations to have credit card readers (since "SC's aren't a Gas Pump" as you helpfully pointed out). As long as the car has an Internet connection, Tesla could use that to detect when the car is charging at a Supercharger location and then bill the owners credit card which they would have on file as part of their agreement with the owner to enable pay per use Supercharging.
I think it is highly likely that when the Model 3 goes into production that Tesla will implement a pay per charge system, and it will not require modifying the Supercharger locations.�
Jul 26, 2016
AustinPowers I will wait until they announce the real pricing for SC usage on the Model 3 before I decide what to do.
But from my current driving profile and needs I know that if it was 2,500 Euro, I would definitely NOT purchase that plan, because I could never make my money back. It might hurt resale value, sure, but that would be the least of my concerns, as I plan to keep the car for at least ten years, and after that, resale value will be minimal anyway.
I'd very much appreciate a pay-per-charge system.�
Jul 26, 2016
Shawn Snider ty�
Jul 26, 2016
Shawn Snider Ofcourse that sounds actually intelligent, people just made it sound like they expect to pay for SC'ing like Gas at a Pump.�
Jul 26, 2016
S'toon Ah, I get it. It's a class thing. Model 3 owners should pay more than Model S and X owners because 3 owners are leaches on the system, whereas S and X owners are builders of the system. Or some such.�
Jul 26, 2016
CuriousG Then you need to stop thinking of it as having to make back that money. It's an option like anything else you'll choose in a car: panaramic roof, upgraded seats, cold weather package, premium interior, dual motor, upgraded paint job, etc.�
Jul 26, 2016
diamond.g That is the part that gets me. The congestion now is with those that have unlimited use. Making Model 3 owners pay per use isn't going to make the others go away.�
Jul 26, 2016
tsla007 Currently is referring to the posts on tesla website-both x and s are 2500.00-that's the honest price right now. Some of you really shouldn't post. I did read the other posts which is why I said paying at the charger is not an option for me. NO security!�
Jul 26, 2016
diamond.g Can you post a picture of this? I am not seeing it.�
Jul 26, 2016
tsla007 @littlecloud-no post 26 doesn't explain all this even minimally.�
Jul 26, 2016
tsla007 @Jeff I don't care about polls. I'm simply stating that I haven't seen a drop in price for SC. Nor do I expect it to change for mdl 3.
If it does-I'll be surprised if it is under 1500.00. I'm keeping in mind not everyone will buy into it-nor will most pay at the charger.
It's not like a gas pump where you can pay cash.�
Jul 26, 2016
MP3Mike I have no idea where you are seeing that it costs $2,500 for a Model X to Supercharge; can you provide a link? All Model Xs come with Supercharging in the base cost of the car. Same with a new Model S purchased. There are just a few old S60s that didn't come with Supercharging and yes it costs $2,500 to enable on them. (It would have been $2,000 if they enabled it when they bought the car.)�
Jul 26, 2016
CuriousG Let me sum it up for you:
Liar, liar, pants on fire!�
Jul 26, 2016
TexasEV Perhaps you are the one who shouldn't post, as you don't know what you are talking about. There is no $2500 or any other price for enabling supercharging on "x and s right now". If you're looking at the Tesla shop the enabling supercharging purchase is only for those early Model S 60 owners who didn't choose to have supercharging enabled when they bought the car a few years ago. It has nothing to do with the X or S being sold now.�
Jul 26, 2016
eisbock Patents are written to cover as many circumstances and cases as possible. When filing a patent, you don't want to leave any loopholes whatsoever if you want to truly secure your idea. I understand that Tesla released their patents, but at the time when they filed the patents, that was probably not on their minds.
So, point being, just because it's in the patent doesn't mean they plan on utilizing such methods, it could be simply to keep others from doing the same thing with different methods.�
Jul 26, 2016
03DSG It's you that shouldn't post. your totally wrong. There is NO optional SC on MS ans MX. It comes with all versions included in the base price. This is the ONLY option for purchasing SC'ing:
Tesla � Enable Supercharging�
Jul 26, 2016
eisbock This is the big thing here. The people that are looking at the cost of supercharging as simply the cost of fuel are shortsighted and not seeing the full picture. You are paying for the ability to travel long distances and subsidizing superchargers to make traveling long distances easier. It's not just about the cost of electricity, it's the infrastructure which contains factors such as convenience and expansion that are impossible to put a price on. I think the $2000 price point is a good deal, all things considered.�
Jul 26, 2016
Az_Rael Reminder - J.B. Straubel said - first million cars will have Superchargers for free�
Jul 26, 2016
CuriousG First of all, this was posted March 16th, 2015. Secondly, this was all before Model 3 was unveiled. No one anticipated the demand of this car until the pre-ordering process began - not even Tesla. Lastly, you take a reddit article that has their own heading and take it out of context. The Youtube video is titled: The Future of Transportation. The exact quote is follows unless there's another place where the million cars is mentioned:
In the future I think it will make sense to phase in some kind of financial transaction here but it's going to take time. And for the beginning a million cars this is a viable way to do it.�
Jul 26, 2016
Booga You can accomplish this in any way you'd like from a financial perspective. You can sell electricity at "cost" and then a portion of your SC access fee pays for the equipment, or you can just sell electricity at a price that takes the infrastructure into consideration.
The infrastructure is an asset for Tesla and should be seen as one. If Shell wanted, they could also charge a $1,000 access fee, and then sell gas a bit cheaper because the "cost of asset use" isn't built into the cost per gallon any more.
The current setup works fine when dealing with folks at a higher income level, but not all of your customers will always be that way. My guess is that SC access will start to change with the Model 3, because they're moving into relatively lower income levels. I know that for 99% of my driving, I don't need a supercharger. I will struggle to pay $2,000 or whatever it is to get access. Instead, I'd much rather buy charging access in 24 hour blocks, which is probably enough for a year for me.�
Jul 26, 2016
MP3Mike Would you be OK with paying ~$30/charge? An average charge is 30 minutes, so a 24 hour block of Supercharging time would cost $1,440.�
Jul 26, 2016
Winston Wolf I'm really enthusiastic about getting this car, but it the cost is really going to be $2500, I'll need to really evaluate whether this is the right car for me. While this will not be our family trip car (that most certainly will be our Honda Odyssey), it would be nice to have the option to take it more than 100 miles away before needing to turn around and re-charge the car at home. Will this happen often? Probably not, but it sure would make us think differently about our trips/destinations in a way that we aren't accustomed to. I'm hoping for $1000 or some sort of pay per use. As Tesla markets a crowd that is less affluent than they have been accustomed to selling to, the marketing and charging for SC access will need to change too.�
Jul 26, 2016
ecarfan You really need to get a grip on reality. What you are stating as fact is simply not true.�
Jul 26, 2016
S'toon Don't worry. It won't be $2,500.�
Jul 26, 2016
littlecloudy If it will cost something around 2,500 to enable free supercharging for life (and this is made up by the OP, so it's a complete hypothetical), how does that compare to what you pay for gas?
According to AAA an average family spends close to $10,000/yr on gas. Edited to add: about $3,000/car/year according to AAA.
What am I missing here?�
Jul 26, 2016
diamond.g Pay per use charging exists through third party networks.�
Jul 26, 2016
Booga If this is what they're pricing in, then they're losing a lot on $2,500 for unlimited, unless they think people will use less than 48 hours in the lifetime of the car.
I think the price would be much less to account for infrastructure and electricity rolled into a "per hour" fee.�
Jul 26, 2016
Booga It's tougher to compare, because most of your charging will be at home and not at a supercharger or gas station.�
Jul 26, 2016
Booga Tesla isn't going to send people that way, because that creates more range anxiety. My guess is that they will end up offering more SC payment options.�
Jul 26, 2016
Az_Rael Not sure how I am taking anything out of context. The quote you stated was exactly the quote I was referring to up thread. I picked the Reddit post because it was tagged to the time stamp where JB talks about supercharging. I figured the folks here would be smart enough to ignore the dumb title once they watched the content since I don't know how to time stamp you tube links like that. I guess I can't assume anything in an online forum and should have put a caveat to ignore the title. My bad.
My point is they have been talking about monetizing the system for a while now (since 2015 as you pointed out) and it sounds to me like they would rather work towards payment plans of some form vs one-time fees for unlimited use. (With JB's "transaction" verbiage and Elons "plan" verbiage)
My current theory is they will make the unlimited for life plan painfully expensive because they would rather have all of us on the hook for continual payments over time. This would also decouple supercharging from the car, so that used car buyers would have to buy a supercharger plan as well. More money in Tesla's pockets to fund and build out the network.
I might be completely wrong, and supercharging for life may be very reasonably priced and we will all gladly sign up. We will just have to wait and see once the details are released.�
Jul 26, 2016
littlecloudy I see. I didn't think about that since I don't yet own a tesla and sort of assumed I'd always go to a supercharger, without giving it much thought.
Nonetheless, I still feel that superchargers are the key for me to be able to own a Tesla, since I take long road trips, and if I have to pay some life long access fee, which is much less than what I would pay for gas, I don't see the problem.�
Jul 26, 2016
Winston Wolf What you're missing is that I'll be charging most of the time at home. So the question is whether I would use $2500 in gas while on longer distance trips (ie, when I'll use the SC network). Add in the time value of money and this becomes a very poor ROI.�
Jul 26, 2016
Winston Wolf Sure. Slow charging. At least at the moment.�
Jul 26, 2016
Winston Wolf I live in WI, but make trips home to MI about 2-3x per year. This is most of my long distance travel. Roughly 400 miles each way. Add in a couple closer long distance trips. So let's say I do about 3000 miles per year where I would use the SC network. Our trip car gets about 25mpg so that's about 120 gallons of gas. 120gal * $3.00 per gallon = $360 per year in "trip gas".
This is where the $2500 really falls apart for me. A payback of 7 years on $2500 is a poor "investment"
It gets even worse when you factor that most of those MI trips are going to be in our minivan, and not the Tesla. We aren't light packers. If I only do 1000 long distance travel miles, the payback gets much much worse.�
Jul 26, 2016
AustinPowers Similar situation here. With my driving habits I would never make my money back.
+1 Exactly. Same here.
That's as maybe, but to many people buying a Model 3, a Supercharger will be seen like a gas station on long roadtrips. And like others have said, you don't pay for those upfront either. Plus, more people than one would think don't go on longer roadtrips all too often.�
Jul 26, 2016
MP3Mike You mean vs. not being able to make the trips? Or having to pay to maintain a second car just for trips?�
Jul 26, 2016
mspohr I do most of my charging at home but when I drive on long trips I use Superchargers. Their value goes far beyond the few dollars of electricity I soak up. Their value means that the trip is possible. I couldn't do long distance trips without Superchargers since I would have to stop every few hundred miles and charge (overnight) at a L2 charger... just not going to happen.
My most recent trip was from N. California, across NV and ID to Yellowstone and the Tetons (2200 miles R/T). Superchargers every 100-200 miles meant that we could drive all day with only short stops. I would not have made the trip without Superchargers.
I did save a few hundred dollars on gas with free electricity but the value of the Superchargers for making the trip fast and comfortable was much more.�
Jul 26, 2016
CuriousG When is buying a car ever an investment unless it appreciates like classic cars?�
Jul 26, 2016
AustinPowers We are not talking about the car though, are we? We are talking about the possible extra cost to be able to use the superchargers. And if (which at this point is pure speculation) said extra cost would be 2,500 USD/Euro/whatever would we buy that option or not.
As I said, I personally wouldn't because I would never use electricity for that amount of money at an SC. And as I don't intend to use my Model 3 for long roadtrips, I don't need the "added value/possible convenience of superchargers" in the first place. Sure, I appreciate that Tesla offers that convenience, but since I don't intend to use it, I don't want to pay for it either.�
Jul 26, 2016
Saghost Ummm... Every Model X built has Supercharging included in the price, and so does every Model S from the last year and a half.
You're right, some folks probably shouldn't post. They probably also shouldn't start threads sometimes.�
Jul 26, 2016
diamond.g While I would rather not pay 2500 I think I would if that were the price. I think of it like a Kickstarter for sustainable charging for Tesla. Maybe I should be looking at it like an investment, but then again getting options on a car is a waste of money because you never get the equivalent back monetarily.
Makes you wonder if folks here are willing to pay 2500 for autopilot as it exists today.�
Jul 26, 2016
dgpcolorado I'm baffled by the position of some that the Supercharger fee needs to pencil out as some sort of fuel cost. Lots of people add options to cars and pay extra for such things as colors, leather seats, performance package, and AutoPilot. Do those options really add as much utility to the car as the long distance trips that Supercharging enables? You don't really need most of the options if all you want is a functional car. Next to a larger battery (increased range) it is hard for me to imagine an option more useful than Supercharging access.
Even if, as is the case with most of us, 90+% of your charging is at home, Supercharging allows long trips to be made easily and routinely. It drastically increases the utility of the car. And that's what makes Teslas different from all other BEVs available now and in the next few years.
Sure, I can see some people buying the Model 3 solely for local driving, especially if they have access to another vehicle for long trips. There may well be people who buy the base model and add no options, for whom Supercharging is just more than they can afford. And if some sort of subscription regimen is introduced to pay for Supercharging I can see how it might make more sense for some to take that route instead of paying a one-time lifetime fee. But, to suggest that a Supercharging option has to pencil out as a cost of fuel completely misses to point: it allows the ability to easily make very long road trips in an EV. And that's a paradigm shift in EV utility!�
Jul 26, 2016
littlecloudy I haven't measured it but I probably drive 10,000 miles/yr in long trips and in addition more miles in shorter day trips, and I intend for the model 3 to be my only car. Superchargers are a necessity (I need a lot more then there are now) and if I need to pay for them - not seeing the problem.�
Jul 26, 2016
timk225
That's not my problem. My concern is getting as much as possible for ME, with minimal cost.�
Jul 26, 2016
roblab Back in the day, like 2012, we drove our new Model S from CA bay area to Canada. And back. No one had ever heard of superchargers. Now I read that there is no way anyone can do long distance trips unless they have supercharging. I can guarantee you that you can do it.
We arranged every night for a motel with a 220 outlet. Next morning, we drove 200 miles or so to an RV park, and we walked (!!) into town for donut and coffee or a leisurely lunch while the car charged. If we got back early, we would read (!! again). The walk was good, the book was good, the company was good. Then we'd drive on to our next motel. Might do 300 plus miles a day.
It was one of the most relaxing, rewarding vacations ever. Sure, SCs make it easier, but it surely isn't hard to make it without. If you can't afford the fee, so what? Toss your charger cable into the car and head on out anyway!�
Jul 26, 2016
roblab As many new Tesla owners have found, your yearly miles go up when you buy a Tesla. We do over 25,000 per year now. It's just too much fun to drive, and you can't say, "but we're wasting gas," or "it's too expensive." Drove over to see the grandkid play football. Only a hundred mile round trip. Big deal. Wouldn't have gone with the ICE.�
Jul 26, 2016
MiamiNole That sounds nice if you have the time to do it. I'd imagine that unless you're retired and/or have an empty nest, that kind of trip probably isn't feasible for most people with jobs and/or families. Not trying to detract from your point though. When I retire, road trips across the country are definitely on my itinerary. I'm already a big theme-park enthusiast and constantly travel across the country for them. BUT, I'm only 10 years into my career. Quite a ways to go before that type of freedom!
I'm hoping by the time that I retire that they have Tesla Model RVs on the market!�
Jul 26, 2016
timk225 Maybe buying Supercharging ability a month at a time is the way to go. You have it when you need it for long trips, you don't spend money on it when plugging in at home is good enough.�
Jul 26, 2016
zenmaster A subscription model wouldn't fit my needs, as I don't do long distance travel regularly. You obviously don't need a credit card reader to handle the transaction. There is a protocol between the charger and the car and all chargers are networked.�
Jul 26, 2016
MP3Mike Are they? (My understanding is that they are not, which is why Tesla asks you to stay connected to a bad SpC when you call them so that they can access it via your car.)
As far as we know currently the SpC does no validation of the car, if the car says it can Supercharge then it can. So they would have to roll out a software update to all of SpCs.�
Jul 26, 2016
JeffK I'm not sure how they get the info for sure:
�
Jul 26, 2016
Skione65 @dgpcolorado,
^^^^This!!! Best reply to the OPs thread yet. Come on people. Are you here to purchase a car and "pencil in" return costs on excel spreadsheets to monetize over the life of your owning the M3 or "help 'invest' in the 'Tesla Idea and infrastructure' to help everybody in the Tesla Ownership Family'........I may not get my value back over the life of my M3 ownership but I WILL purchase the 'Lifetime Supercharging' for the above stated reason to help the Tesla infrastructure to better serve us all.
Ski�
Jul 26, 2016
CHG-ON Not in 2014. Since I got the P+ package, it was included in the 6,500 upgrade. Otherwise, It was a plus cost option. So I paid for it in that package, which wasn't cheap. Check your history.�
Jul 26, 2016
MP3Mike I'm pretty sure that Supercharging was only an option on the original S60. It was standard in the base S85.�
Jul 26, 2016
S'toon Strange. This article from 2012 states supercharging is free for the 85s, and an option on the 60s.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/automobiles/on-an-electric-highway-charging-into-the-future.html?ref=autoreviews&_r=0�
Jul 27, 2016
AustinPowers I can only speak for myself, but I definitely wouldn't. I have recently experienced the current autopilot on a testdrive with an S P90DL and it sure is a nice gimmick, but for me it is nothing more - yet. Perhaps one day when all cars on the road have autopilot and car-to-X communication with each other, but not now. Problem is also that more than 95% of my driving is in or between small towns in the country, where the current autopilot is not recommended to be used anyway. And for driving on the Autobahn I am quite happy with standard ACC.�
Jul 27, 2016
AustinPowers But if you are someone who doesn't need the car for long roadtrips anyway, how is SC access a useful option?
Plus, SC access is a different kind of option than colors, leather etc. It is like if traditional ICEs offered an optional flat fee for gas/diesel. It is an option that affects the running costs of the vehicle, thus the economy of it. That is why some of us calculate if a certain price for SC access is "worth it" to them over the lifetime of the car.
Other options as others have said don't affect the economy of the car but are just "gimmicks/luxuries" so to speak.
If you are someone who routinely goes on long roadtrips, getting SC access will be a no-brainer for sure, no matter if it is 1,500 or 2,500 USD/Euro/whatever.
But if you are not, then SC access will be an option as unnecessary as leather or a high-end sound system.�
Jul 27, 2016
AustinPowers Well, I know that driving a Tesla is fun, but I am sure my yearly miles won't go up much with a Model 3. Simple and sad reason, I won't have more time on hand, just because I have a Model 3. My wife and I both work full time Mo-to-Fr (the wife also on many weekends), and on the weekends there are things like the extracurricular activities of our two kids (birthdays, outings, training sessions, competitions, etc.), visiting grandparents and other relatives, plus getting all the housework, gardening and shopping done for which there is no time during the week.
Perhaps one day when the kids have left home and we are both in retirement, our yearly miles will go up significantly, but that will be at least a quarter of a century from now, and by then I guess BEV tech will have possibly outgrown the need for charging during roadtrips anyway.�
Jul 27, 2016
Shawn Snider I agree with the Options comment, almost. Up here in Canada where the temperature drops below -25'C (lowest i've seen in recent years is like -34'C or something) in cold Winters. So the SubZero Package is an absolute MUST-HAVE, kinda sad that Canadian's have to pay $1,300 CDN just to have an option to allow the car to function in our environment :X Wish I lived in California where its always a perfect 20'C.�
Jul 27, 2016
Shawn Snider Also depends on where geographically you live, over in Europe it's a LOT denser, way more available 'plugins' aside from Tesla SC's, here in BC, Canada it's quite far inbetween cities/town's, so SC access for me is required.�
Jul 27, 2016
diamond.g In order to get ACC I think you have to get the AP package. But I get your point. I just think if it as getting the drivers assistance package in other brands. Most charge at least $1000, with some even requiring a certain trim level to even get the option. Mercedes charges 2500 and you have to pay an extra 950 to get self parking. BMW makes you get the 328 before you can get the drivers assistance plus package and they want 2700.�
Jul 27, 2016
alseTrick Nobody has pointed out this guy is trolling both TMC and the Tesla Forums?
Same day. Same post. Different site.
super charging for mdl 3 | Tesla Motors
Just another troll like that pdx eagle.�
Jul 27, 2016
MP3Mike Just remember that in a Tesla you only get ACC/TACC when you purchase AP. (Otherwise you get just plain old dumb CC.)�
Jul 27, 2016
MiamiNole I've always looked at supercharging as a convenience option more so than just looking at the cost, cost/fuel savings, and recouping that cost. When combined with Autopilot, the convenience of being able to take road trips with the comfort of autopilot will most likely be well worth the price. Then, I take into consideration the trips that I would normally travel by plane to that I'd start driving for due to said convenience. That's money saved on airfare, baggage, airport parking, rental car, etc. Then, add on top of that the fact that I will also most likely be taking more road trips due to said convenience. More weekend trips to see my folks in South Florida, driving up to FSU games, more theme park trips, etc. All that alone will most likely be well worth the cost of the two options (AP plus SC).
If you add the fuel savings on top of all of that, the choice becomes a no-brainer for me.�
Jul 27, 2016
eisbock The cost of building a supercharger network comparable to the current gas station network is huge. Gas stations have had a hundred years to expand, Tesla has a tenth of that.
You need a large and expansive network if you wish to sell the public on the idea of electrical cars, so this rapid expansion is necessary. And expensive. If you want to use it, you're going to have to pay for the expansion one way or another, especially us early adopters.
Maybe in 50 years when there are finally enough superchargers to the point where expansion is no longer necessary, the price might come down and supercharging for life will be based on supercharging data Tesla has collected over the years and will be a much more reasonable price. Until then, you want to use the network now, you pay a premium.
All of this discussion about how it's so expensive is absolutely ridiculous. Tesla is losing an obscene amount of money to make this supercharger network a reality for you and what, you all expect to be able to use it for only the cost of electricity?�
Jul 27, 2016
TexasEV Paying for enabling supercharging is paying for the option which converts your car from local use only to being able to use it conveniently on long trips also. That isn't just a gas price calculation even for most EV owners who have a 2nd car which is an ICE. EV driving, and a Tesla driving specifically, is a lifestyle not just a cost savings. Until you do it you may not fully understand it.
If you buy the air suspension option, do you estimate how many times you would raise or lower the car and the price per use? What about the enhanced sound system? What's the cost per hour of listening to the better sound?�
Jul 27, 2016
ohmman I stopped being a road trip kind of guy in college. My Model S changed all of that for me, and we've seen parts of the country we'd never have seen by air. Being forced to spend extended periods in the car is a bonding experience for our family - yes, we certainly grate on each other at times, but the net is clearly positive.
We've also eliminated a good number of air travel trips - four seats in the front of the plane have a heavy emissions/GHG cost when you compare to a single Tesla on the road. Keeping the actual ROI out of it, I'd say all of this adds up to well more than $2500 of value for our family.�
Jul 27, 2016
Winston Wolf Right. However intentions can change. What you'll be purchasing is a car that's incapable of going longer distances, even in an emergency. Say you have to fly home for Thanksgiving and your flight is cancelled. The airlines can't get you there until Friday because everything is booked up. You have to drive. In your Tesla, you can't make it, so now you're in a spot where you're having to rent a car.
All I'm saying is that for those who would infrequently use the SC system, we all need to think hard about whether a Tesla is right for us. Because a Tesla w/o supercharger access does not have the same utility as an ICE car. IF I buy SC access, I'd do it up front, not 2-3 years later where my payback gets even worse since I'll probably only keep the car for 10 years.�
Jul 27, 2016
Winston Wolf Which is why I put it in quotations. And we aren't talking about the car itself, we're talking about the cost of supercharging.�
Jul 27, 2016
Winston Wolf You guys bring up some good points relating Supercharging as an option that enables additional value to be unlocked, similar to other options. All I'm saying is that for those who find the option to be more than they would get back in return, we need to evaluate whether the Model 3 is still the right car for us. For me? Probably still a yes. As I've said, we'll likely still do all our long distance trips in our Minivan. Ultimately, I think the cost of SC will come down significantly from the $2500 for the Model S. Elon has already said that options like Dual Motor will not cost as much as they would on the S/X. I think you'll see all options come down in price comparably.�
Jul 27, 2016
littlecloudy I'm sorry, but this makes no sense.
One of THE limitations to EV adoption is range, right? Tesla has to a certain extent solved that and with the expansion of the supercharger network it will get better and better. It needs to get to the point where you can go anywhere, just like with an ICE. If you can't, the whole thing - transitioning to sustainable energy and getting rid of fossil fuels - ultimately won't work.
Now, why would having this option detract from the Model 3? Let's say it is an additional option that you have to pay a very reasonable sum for. Don't want it, don't get it. Why would it make you not want to get the car? This makes no sense.�
Jul 27, 2016
ModelNforNerd
Exactly. The Superchargers are "dumb". They only read your Supercharging ability as a "yes" or "no" during that initial handshake. IF....HUGE IF...they go to a per-use model, it will be stored in the car's software, so that any SC you pull up to, the car will be able to say "yes" on initial handshake.
(again....we've flogged this equine in other threads, sooo....)�
Jul 27, 2016
JeffK It's not actually terribly obscene. At $300,000 per station they'd only need to be able to sell 35 Model 3s (at only the base price) at a 25% gross margins (or 19 Model S cars at $66k) to pay for a supercharging location.
Theoretically, if they used 100% of profits from sales for just a single quarter on supercharging stations then they'd be able to double the size network (without simply adding more superchargers to existing stations). Unless my math is totally off.�
Jul 27, 2016
AustinPowers I know that. I was speaking more in general terms meaning I would be quite happy with standard ACC, not needing AP at all yet.�
Jul 27, 2016
AustinPowers Actually, wrong. As I have no need for it, they are not building it for me, and I don't expect them to. It is nice of Tesla that they do it anyway. But mind you, they are not just doing it out of the good of their hearts. They do it because it gives them a massive advantage over the competition!
In the end, it will be a matter of price for me. If they want 500 [insert preferred currency], I will of course get it. If it's 2,500 or thereabouts, I will almost certainly skip the opportunity.�
Jul 27, 2016
FlatSix911 Here is some antidotal evidence regarding the popular use of Superchargers ...
I stopped by Mt. View today and found they now have a concierge to help organize the queue ...12 SC stalls and 10 cars waiting mid day!�
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