Jul 2, 2016
Red Sage I have no idea why members of the League of Lowered Expectations bother to take part in what are obviously meant to be hopeful, highly speculative threads.�
Jul 2, 2016
Garlan Garner I don't have any specs, but I do have an example. Drive it hard.
Now tell me that a tesla can't run hard continuously.�
Jul 3, 2016
lklundin Does discussion of (possibly past) problems of Tesla make you feel a little bit confrontational?
That's a pity, because the Pikes Peak climb is not that good an example when it comes to possible overheating of the battery.
From the perspective of the battery cooling, Pikes Peak _is_ interesting because it starts at an altitude (1440m) and gains quite a lot as well (2860m), so both more work and less cooling.
The problem is however, that it is both very short and full of curves making for a very low average speed, just over 100 km/h and more significant for just about 12 minutes.
Don't get me wrong, climbing Pikes Peak in less than 12 minutes is an awesome feat that testifies to both the skill of the driver and the capability of the Model S, a family sedan!
It is just not that demanding of the battery.
Still, in the video the driver actually says (at 05m50s):
"This car was designed, and because it is so fast, to accelerate quickly, but not accelerate quickly over and over and over and over again", and about the acceleration he goes on to say:
"That creates a lot of heat in the car, so from a driver's perspective I have to be very careful in how much energy I use early, to build up too much heat".
I experienced the battery overheating in the 2013 P85+ by just keeping the pedal pressed all the way down for a half hour (on a straight and empty Autobahn(*) at night, so no particular driving skills demonstrated). While initially going well over 200 km/h, the second half of that drive was limited to 160kW and I could not back get up to 200 km//h...
And all I was asking, was if someone had some specifics to indicate that this problem has been solved in newer models.
(*) The A92, where not-particularly-skilled Porsche driver's often go so they can drive fast and sometimes crash (also with one another):
Porsche-Treffen geht �bel aus
Auf der A92: 24-J�hriger f�hrt Porsche zu Schrott | Freising
Porsche ger�t bei Tempo 200 ins Schleudern, schanzt �ber Leitplanke, fliegt 200 Meter weit und landet auf Gegenfahrbahn � Sportwagen brennt komplett aus � Fahrer und Beifahrer unverletzt!�
Jul 3, 2016
JeffK The car is designed and geared as a road car. The Autobahn is a unique situation which the rest of the world doesn't have. I'm not sure in the real world on legal roads many people deal with overheating issues. Leading me to conclude that the majority of time the Tesla is a superior car.
As to the next gen roadster... now that might be made to ride hard continuously, we'll see.�
Jul 3, 2016
zenmaster I don't think this side discussion was ever about the normal use case. It was about a performance-demanding use case only. Specifically, it's regarding the case of frequent periods of high accelerarion, regardless of road (i.e. also involves frequent breaking). Very few drivers require or want that repeatable acceleration performance, so it's not in the least a deal breaker for most prospective buyers. Let that be clear.
This particular performance limitation is, however, the largest shortcoming Tesla's cars will have compared to performance-oriented ICE cars. The limitation is a reflection of the current state of battery thermal-mgmt technology, which is relatively new.
The performance-oriented ICE cars to which I'm referring are the 8-minute and sub 8-minute Nurburgring (defacto standard) track-time cars.
So when Tesla says the are going after the BMW 3-series with the Model 3, they are not also going after the BMW M3 market, as the EVs they build are simply non competitive with that market. It is highly unlikely, without a significant redesign of the cooling system, that the Tesla Model 3 would even be performance competitve with BMW's $33k base-model 3-series on that road course.
But again, the vast majority of people don't buy cars to have this type of performance.�
Jul 3, 2016
JeffK See this is actually contradictory as the majority of BMW M3 owners would not be racing on such a track or require that kind of sustained performance. So in essence they are targeting the majority of the BMW M3 market (and the rest of the 3 series).
If I had a choice between a BMW M3 at over $60K which does a 0-60 in 3.8 seconds or a PxxD with possibly ludicrous mode at a similar or lower price point then I'm going to choose the Tesla as it'll be a quicker car for the price.
If I'm frequenting the Nurburgring then why settle for a BMW M3 or a Tesla Model 3 when there are many faster, lighter, better handling, cars?�
Jul 3, 2016
zenmaster The BMW M3 was mentioned in response to a post. But it also happens to be the performance version of the BMW 3-series. Tesla is explicitly targeting the 3-series with the Model 3. The key and important thing to understand is that the relatively few M (and RS and AMG) buyers are intentionally paying a premium for just those bits of engineering that make the car a better performer. That is the nature of the performance market. And the nature of the buyer's benchmarks for performance, whether or not this is frequented by themselves, happens to be that long road course: List of N�rburgring Nordschleife lap times - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"According to Car and Driver, N�rburgring Nordschleife "record-chasing runs are a universally accepted, objective measure of a car�s performance, and shaving seconds gives automakers reasons to grab some headlines."�
Jul 3, 2016
Model 3 And that, a significant redesign of the cooling system, is the topic of this thread.
It has not been talked about it in conjunction with performance, but if it is a redesign of the cooling system it would not be to far of that they try to address the shortcomings of the existing.�
Jul 3, 2016
zenmaster It will be interesting to see what they come up with. People are speculating that they'll switch to use the same tech other manufacturers like BMW are already using. Direct Expansion?
BMW and LG Chem Trump Tesla in Battery Thermal Management - HybridCars.com�
Jul 3, 2016
smilepak If base model holds true to what they say being EPA Rating 215 miles, would love to see what battery upgrade will give. If the offer upgrade to at least 260+ ... That'll be the first upgrade I'll do...
I wish they'll offer the 85kw battery on model 3..290+ miles!!�
Jul 3, 2016
Red Sage Lemme get this straight... You believe that 12 minutes on Pike's Peak is less stressful than a similar amount of time on the N�rburgring, or Laguna Seca, or Streets of Willow, or Road America? C'mon, MAN!
�
Jul 3, 2016
Red Sage Yadda, yadda, yadda... A pure stock Performance version of the Tesla Model ? will post lap times below 7:30 before 2020 at the N�rburgring. That should place it in very good company.
Top 100 Lap Records | N�rburgring Lap Times�
Jul 3, 2016
Pinewold Agreed, get a nice cost reduction for the models S by making a mass produced 320k inverter for the Model 3�
Jul 3, 2016
Garlan Garner No.
I'm bringing articles and facts. If you don't agree....fine. BTW, I will be enjoying my overheating M3 soon. I'll send you some pictures.�
Jul 3, 2016
zenmaster I have no idea from where you could possibly be basing that assertion. Do you?
Such a feat would be quite impressive, but I wouldn't count on that possibility so soon.
I'd think Tesla's first priority with regards to cooling would be to make the equivalent functionality cheaper to manufacture, followed by efforts to help decrease required charging time. Is repeatable acceleration performance that much of a priority? I think not because barely anyone is even aware of the limitations or care based on their performance needs. If the broad market doesn't care, why should Tesla?�
Jul 4, 2016
lklundin OK, let me change my position slightly:
To the extent that the Pike's Peak climb _is_ stressful on the battery, the heat _is_ causing a performance problem, per the driver's explanation in the video, see my previous posting.
But my point is that:
1) Even considering the climb and the limited cooling due to lower air pressure, the average speed of 100 km/h is not even half the speed of just driving level with full throttle, so the power delivered from the battery must be significantly less.
2) Running the car for just 12 minutes is nothing. An mass-produced ICE can drive full throttle for hours without overheating.
The Pike Peak climb is only 20 km. Do it five times (up and down) - or better something of similar duration where one can drive much faster without crashing, that would be an interesting demonstration of how well the Model S cools its battery - which is what my question concerns.�
Jul 4, 2016
JeffK Speaking of ice..
![[?IMG]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl6IHsyWEAU-Q2a.jpg)
�
Jul 4, 2016
Red Sage Based upon the simple statement by Elon Musk a couple of years ago that Tesla can't just make a mass market car that is only 'a little bit better' or 'the same as' its competitors. It has to be BETTER, otherwise, no one would have a reason to buy one. Based upon his reiteration of their commitment to Performance as a primary motivating factor in making their cars compelling when he said Tesla doesn't make slow cars. Based upon the fact so many gearheads keep moving the goalposts every single time something they claimed couldn't possibly be done by an electric car - thereby all but daring Tesla to prove them wrong -- so they do. Based upon the premise that was posed by Elon ten years ago, and that he has maintained since, that most forms of technology need to go through about three generations of refinement before they reach their preeminent form. Thus, when the Tesla Generation III vehicles, starting with the Model ? arrive, the grand percentage of potential Naysayer talking points will be eliminated once and for all and in short order.
Did I mention...? Yadda, yadda, yadda... Your level of doubt is of no concern whatsoever. Zero. I remind you that 'soon' is a whole lot closer than 'never'. And that everything that Tesla Motors does is taking place no less than 15-to-20 years soonER than the traditional automobile manufacturers would have even considered starting to think about maybe doing... some day.
It's been over 18 months since the Model S P85D first saw deliveries, and quite a long time since the Model S P90D was offered. Where is the defender of ICE among its direct competitors? Please, show me that the performance aspects achieved by these vehicles were 'no big deal'. Give me an example of the production Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz/AMG S-Class, BMW/Alpina 7-Series, or Porsche Panamera that sorely SMOKES the Tesla sedan at 0-60 MPH or 0-100 kph, leaving it half a second or more behind. Go ahead. I'll wait.
Somehow, I am absolutely certain it WOULD matter if the quickest, most expensive, most technologically advanced version of the Tesla Model S were half a second SLOWER to 60 MPH than those competitors, all of a sudden, wouldn't it?
Here's the thing with Tesla Motors. They have a whole bunch of priorities. Because they employ smart people, they realize that working on those priorities is not, and should not be linear. They work on their priorities in parallel. And they deliver the results when they are ready. Then they improve upon them all constantly. So nothing is ever 'done'.
For an ICE vehicle, their 'cooling' efforts are such that an engine and exhaust system to operate between 200� F and 500� F. For the battery pack in a Tesla Motors product, the optimum operating temperature is between 35� F and 95� F. And, the ambient temperature of the system as a whole works best between maybe 20� F and 130� F. Show me an ICE vehicle that breaks records at the N�rburgring while operating at room temperature. Go ahead. I'll wait. WHEN the Tesla Model ? does exactly as I've stated and finishes multiple laps at N�rburgring in less than 7:30, the hottest part of the car will be the brakes and tires.
Ah, but those of us who DO KNOW will be incessantly berated by the Naysayers, who will repeatedly make trite statements such as, "Yeah, but you CAN'T track it!" or, "Those stats are ONLY in a STRAIGHT LINE!" and, "True performance involves taking RIGHTS AND LEFTS!" or, the very last bastion of automotive excellence for ICE, "There's no replacement for displacement! You need CYLINDERS and PISTONS to get over 250 MPH without using jet fuel!" Each and every one of these protests, feeble as they may be, must fall to the wayside (along with range concerns) so that Naysayers can be told to [SIERRA TANGO FOXTROT UNIFORM] once and for all. These things will come to pass because they will demand it happen. They will remain a very highly vocal minority, they will get a whole bunch of attention, and they absolutely will not stop -- EVER -- until they are proven wrong publicly and demonstrably and repeatedly.
Oh... And because the BMW M3 managed the feat at 7:48... While the BMW M4 finished the circuit of N�rburgring in 7:28. This would be the primary competitor to a Tesla Model ? P100D. It must be beaten, embarrassed, disposed of, taken down for good. That's why.
![[?IMG]](https://nurburgringlaptimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/bmw1.jpg)
"To be the man, you gotta BEAT the man!" -- Ric Flair�
Jul 4, 2016
brianman Assuming they have the same technology level, yes. I suspect we'll see Model S delivered with more "barely out of research" tech to give it the edge over Model 3, at least initially.�
Jul 4, 2016
JeffK I think the staggered tech will be only a few months ahead especially if it's performance related. For other things like door handles, they might not trickle down to the Model 3 but the core components for performance and safety should trickle down as soon as it's possible to mass produce for the Model 3.�
Jul 4, 2016
brianman Accordingly, not having the power limiter kick in after a few laps is an integral part of performance as well.�
Jul 4, 2016
brianman Yup.
�
Jul 4, 2016
brianman It's not solved in my Dec '14 P85D with Ludicrous upgrade. I spent more than half of my 7/2/2016 outing at The Ridge (Shelton, WA) at the first (240kW) or second (120kW) power limiter. It was a 7 session -- with a soft/warmup first session -- day where I ran sessions 1, 2, 3, and 5. The Ridge had a 14-50 for me to use which I used during all down time, including lunch. I started the day with 100% charge. For sessions 2, 3, and 5, I exited the track 1-2 laps early because the power-limiting was punishing. I left the track with 58 rated miles after the 5th session to head to Centralia. (I should have made a supercharger run over lunch like I did last time.)
Temperature was mid-70s and overcast (though I still managed some sunburn). No blinding sunshine but completely dry track.�
Jul 4, 2016
brianman Well stated. Concur. I'd love to see Tesla change their philosophy somewhat -- and go after the M3 market -- but all conversations I've had with Tesla employees and performance-interested folks that have had deep discussions with Tesla support the argument that Tesla hasn't been and isn't interested in going after that market. It's frustrating for those of us that track our cars with M3s, Audis, Porsches, and Ferraris and would like to have full sessions of competitive performance.
That said, if you're just working on skills it's, um, "interesting and challenging" to be driving a 400kW (536hp) car and a 120kW car (161hp) car in the same 20 minute session. Somewhat depressing, but great for skills building.�
Jul 4, 2016
Garlan Garner zenmaster sai
Why is everyone interested in taking a street car ( M3, MS, MX ) and put it on a track?
All I want is Ludicrous 0-60 times. That's a street dynamic. Not a track dynamic.�
Jul 4, 2016
Garlan Garner I'll tell you what though.
I might have to adjust my purchase if the Ludicrous version does not provide sub 4 times at $60K.�
Jul 4, 2016
JeffK Same here, I'm not rich so if I'm going to spend $60k on a car it'd better be fast and last for years.�
Jul 4, 2016
brianman Why pay extra for performance and not use it? I don't spend money to gold plate things in my garage. Do you?
And who says "everyone" is interested in that?�
Jul 4, 2016
zenmaster What makes you believe that's the case? I'd think maybe less than one out of every one thousand would want to do that.
Where do you live or what are you reading that makes you think that is something everyone wants to do? I actually think you are BSing.�
Jul 4, 2016
Garlan Garner Folks in this thread are interested in taking a street car and placing it on the track that's who. Read the comments. Just read.
No I don't spend my money as you have asked, that's exactly why I won't criticize the M3 or MS on its track performance. Its not designed or built for it. They are cars for the street.
Is that clear enough?�
Jul 4, 2016
brianman I think you're misreading my post. The portion you quoted was me quoting someone else.�
Jul 4, 2016
brianman I'm confused by this response as well. Perhaps I need an interpreter.�
Jul 5, 2016
Jayc Tesla M3 PXXD will be a better performing car than its competitors - True that some of its ICE competition will be more track capable but most of us don't care - I go back to Model T vs horse argument. Yes the horse can jump over barriers and some folk would have really wanted that because every weekend they would have taken their pride and joy horse for a ride off-road over various barriers just for a thrill.
The other significant point here is how one could even consider a Tesla M3 against ICE track champions - surely they are not in the same league right? WRONG - because a majority of track capable car buyers buy those cars for daily commute rather than weekend fun at the track. That again is normal logic - not many people will be able to keep a 60k car garaged up just for weekend fun. Besides, one can enjoy their 0-60 performance and handling while commuting to work, c'mon isn't that what usually happens? What Tesla has also managed to achieve is to break the tail pipe dominance on the street - that is no mean feat I tell you. So the next time you are driving your Tesla PXXD and you come up against a tractor sounding ICE racer with 10 badges and and equal number of tail pipes, you can just smile and be on your way knowing if you put your foot down, they will not even have time to reach for their gear before you reach the speed limit or next color lights that is
So to summarize - Tesla M3 PXXD will indeed be a great performing car and a much better choice (for most) compared to ICE track capable alternatives - for all intents and purposes .
Nuff said.�
Jul 5, 2016
lklundin I would never take any car to a track (except I did some ADAC courses to try to become a better driver).
I just want to drive from A to B, and the Tesla numbers I posted in this thread is from normal Autobahn driving, except a bit on the short side.
Mind you that Autobahn driving is a quite significant part of the driving "value proposition", see e.g. the presentation discussed in this thread:
Most excellent lecture: "Precisely Why The Tesla Model 3 Will Upend The Global Auto Industry"
I am not even sure if the presenter fully understands what Autobahn driving means, e.g. overtaking a police car that has its emergency lights on with the cruise control set to 240 km/h. Or driving (or was that a friend?) the car with a tow-bar with three bicycles, reaching an _average_ fuel consumption of 1 liter diesel per minute.
Maybe that is not typical driving even by German standards, but driving for just a couple of hours at pretty much full throttle should _not_ be a problem.
My ICE has a measly 240 kW engine and a pathetic efficiency, if we say 25% then that is 180 kW heating.
Still, with its monstrosity of a cooler the car has no problem with overheating, it can drive at full speed for hours (granted, traffic permitting so typically at night where it is cooler).
With its about 90% efficiency, a P85D delivering its 515 kW (from the battery) would only produce on the order of 50 kW heating, and I think it is quite important that the car can manage heating at that level for more than a dozen minutes - at least if Tesla wants to prove itself on the German market.�
Jul 5, 2016
R.S
If it has 250kW of motor power and 25% efficiency, 250kW is what it puts out mechanically, 750kW is heat. The whole system has a power of 1000kW, but most of it is conversion to heat, rather than rotation. But heat build up is a problem in electric cars. The thing is, that for vary high power, you will need to cool it. Cooling would be easy, just get a big radiator, but that would limit the cars efficiency.
The other question would be, what is it that can't handle the power, is it the inverter, the motor, or the battery? Cooling the motor should be easy, just increase the coolant flow and reduce the coolant temperature. If it's the battery, well, I don't know. I am no expert on batteries. I have found a website of a company that does research on Li-S cells. They promise high energy densities, 450Wh per kg, 500 per liter, and a 5C continuous discharge rate in 2018/19. I guess we will have to see where the future Tesla cell will land. Todays cells might not be perfect, since they still rely pretty much on a concept, used for mobile devices, which don't really need much power.
I'd say well see a big jump in practicality for the future Tesla cells. They will be the first cells Tesla uses that will be built to their needs, rather than just adopted for their needs.�
Jul 5, 2016
jkk_ One thing though, 0-60 is all fun and nice, but overtaking speed is more relevant in normal traffic.�
Jul 5, 2016
zenmaster Ah you took your own advice and changed your position after reading the thread. Glad you got that cleared up.�
Jul 5, 2016
ecarfan "Everyone" is not interested in tracking their Tesla. A very small fraction of all buyers would like to do that. Which is fine, and I hope that in the future Tesla improves the drivetrain cooling systems to allow that type of use to some degree. But I do not expect Tesla to offer an optional "Track Package" with improved cooling because such an option will have a negligible impact on sales volume.
At this point in the evolution of EVs, building systems into the car to allow it to run at maximum or near maximum power output is an extremely expensive thing to do, as evidenced by the cost of a Formula E race car (not a completely fair comparison, of course, but some of the cost of those race cars has to do with the need for cooling the drivetrain). I'm sure that in the future the cost will come down, but right now Tesla has more important things to focus on.�
Jul 5, 2016
Garlan Garner What? I haven't changed my position on anything.
I've never been a track person. I know that the MS can perform on the track though. I know that it does well on the track, however it's not a full out track car.�
Jul 5, 2016
zenmaster You sure did. Your previous position was based on the assumption that everyone wanted to track their Tesla. That was obviously incorrect.�
Jul 5, 2016
nexsuperne101 To put things into perspective, this is the view of a member on the Nissan Leaf Forum, when talking about the 60KW Nissan Leaf being a "Tesla killer"
Tesla Killer? only if it goes 0-60mph in 4 seconds, has a 155mph top speed and looks really good... It ain't gonna happen!
To which the reply was
"Neither of these factors is of any interest to a lot of people - they're just likely to put the insurance up".
With this " its a box on 4 wheels" mindset, I can feel my soul draining away the longer I drive a Leaf and don't have a car with a sting in the tail. I grew up (OK, that 's debatable) driving Ford Sierra RS500's, Nissan Skylines, Mitsubishi Evo, Lancia Delta. I still need the rush, because inside this nearly 41 year old body, the 10 year old boy's mind is still alive and well and wants a car that goes like f*ck but won't kill the planet for his kids at the same time.�
Jul 5, 2016
JeffK I feel your pain. There's a good chance your Leaf is faster than my Gen II Prius and I still have to get gas (also in the dead of winter freezing my butt off)
Tell those forum members to enjoy their 4 star safety rating and lack of modern automatic safety features.�
Jul 5, 2016
brianman With Model 3 and beyond, I disagree.
There is significant buyer attraction and viral advertising that pulls in customers. I have more people ask me about Ludicrous mode than ask me about any other feature of Model S or X (including falcon wing doors).�
Jul 6, 2016
lklundin Many thanks for correcting this glaring mistake of mine.
The most heat-producing conditions I have seen for my ICE is 1 liter diesel per minute, i.e. close to 600 kW, of which on the order of 400 kW can be assumed to be heat, which poses no cooling problem (except probably for the Earth's climate as a whole).
Assuming 90% efficiency for the 320 kW Tesla P85+ I mentioned, its maximum required cooling would then be only on the order of 35 kW, so an order of magnitude less than for the ICE.
I think it is a pretty good question why the battery cooling (still) seems to be an issue for the model S.
Returning to the topic at hand, improving the efficiency of the car (including the inverter) is the obvious place to focus, but it seems that the actual cooling also needs attention.�
Jul 6, 2016
cronosx It's linked to what temperature you can accept and the temperature of the air outside the car
In a ICE the motor can accept 100�C, it's much easier to dissipate 100�C and bring it to 80�C than dissipate 50�C and bring it to 45�C ( notice: it's easier to bring down 20�C than 5�C! )
So, if the outside temperature is 90�C then a ICE would have problem since the differential temperature will not be ( 100� - 30� -> 70� ) but will be ( 100�-90� -> 10� ).
Just try to drive with 60� ( 100�-60� -> 40� diff temp ), and tell me if you don't have problem whit ICE..
Now the battery can't accept 100�C, they need to be a lot cooler, i don't have data now, but let's assume 50�C it's ok? now, if the outside temperature is 30� you have 20� diff temp, which is half the differential temperature when an ICE has SERIUS problem. and we know the tesla can stand no problem 30�
it's more clear now?�
Jul 7, 2016
Red Sage One of the primary missions of Tesla Motors is to make electric cars look good. While blowing a rod, or losing the sealing gasket, or grinding a transmission down to assorted chunks of misshapen metal may be taken in stride with ICE vehicles that are race tuned...? I'm certain that setting a battery pack on fire, or permanently bricking a battery pack, or melting an electric motor would be frowned upon much more so than having reduced power. Hence, Tesla Motors vehicles are designed to protect themselves as best as possible with longevity, durability, and reliability as major concerns, along with safety. I remain confident that during the Tesla Generation III development and refinement, robust systems that can protect the components of the car while allowing more spirited driving will be a priority for Tesla Engineering teams, and will hopefully be part of the upgrade path to Model ? Performance vehicles.�
Jul 7, 2016
Red Sage For the same reason that Porsche, Ferrari, and Maserati buyers have taken their street cars to the track for decades. To prove their chosen car design is superior to others. To show that their own skill at driving surpasses those of peers. Competition. Being able to 'Run What Ya Brung' is rather satisfying as well.�
Jul 7, 2016
Red Sage I think he meant: Why is everyone, participating in this thread, that is in favor of a track capable Performance edition of Model ? so concerned about that, when it is a street car...? I believe the answer is so that they can prove themselves, and the technology they have chosen to purchase, are worthy of the experience -- by blowing the doors off of all comers. That would do the trick for me! The Streets of Willow are not so far away...�
Jul 7, 2016
Red Sage There is a considerable difference between having a cool idle at just over 200� F, being able to avoid overheating by staying at anything less than 500� F and having a system that begins to overheat at 100� F, and may be permanently damaged at anything over 130� F. The optimum operating temperature for the battery cells is somewhere between 65� F and 95� F. Please, show me a high performance ICE vehicle with a system that operates at no more than room temperature. The incredible energy inefficiency of ICE is only seen as an advantage when someone presumes an electric car is just as inefficient.�
Jul 7, 2016
brianman I wish I had your confidence. In the last 4 years of owning a Tesla and participating in TMC, I've seen no evidence -- behavior or spoken word by Tesla -- that supports this optimism.�
Jul 7, 2016
brianman That's one reason.
For me, it's about improving driving skill (not displaying it) and having fun. Lots of fun. Though sometimes expensive fun.�
Jul 7, 2016
Red Sage It seems most often that those who have 'complaints' about the overtaking & passing speed of a Tesla Motors product are those who want to do so at extra-legal speeds... If you are cruising at 100 MPH and want to pass someone who is doing 90 MPH, at 150 MPH, before they can get to 95 MPH, you will probably be disappointed. But if traffic as a whole is at 70 MPH or less, you can practically teleport yourself into a spot in traffic before they even knew you were there at all.�
Jul 7, 2016
brianman If that's the question intended, then my answer is this:
Point me to another option for an electric vehicle that is as compelling as the Model S (even with it's track limitations), produced at volume, and available to "normal customers". Tesla is the only provider of a production vehicle that meets this (and many other) criteria. If Tesla had a viable competitor in this space and that competitor made "track capable" vehicles then I'd be looking there as well.�
Jul 7, 2016
brianman Just another data point...
I don't drive the Autobahn -- only "lowly" U.S. roads. That said, pre-Ludicrous the "complaints" of some have some merit. Post-ludicrous I don't have any beef with the street passing performance at any speed under 120mph.�
Jul 7, 2016
JeffK Better thermal management is a big concern and the only way to reliably allow faster charging rates. Which Tesla has mentioned they are interested in.�
Jul 7, 2016
Red Sage These quotes do the trick for me...
"We don't build slow cars." ... "Our cars have to be 'better' than all of the other cars or there is no reason to buy them." ... "Whenever you've got new technology, it takes about three generations to make it a compelling mass-marketed product." -- Elon Musk
Taken together, I believe this means that Tesla Generation III will compel interest and purchase by removing most of the Naysayer's standing against electric cars from the outset, and all of them by 2020.�
Jul 7, 2016
brianman Elon is always talking about street performance, not track performance. By street performance metrics, they're already fine; I very rarely (almost never) hit the limiter for street driving.�
Jul 7, 2016
brianman I'm not sure if thermal management while charging maps directly to thermal management while driving. As an example, does Ludicrous-fused P85D supercharge faster after the upgrade?�
Jul 7, 2016
JeffK It does map. Ludicrous-fused P85D is a difference in fuse material... it is not a change which improves battery cooling. If you had a change which improved the ability to cool at high charge and discharge rates then you will increase the period of time you can have top performance.
See every example where the Tesla limps along at reduced power thanks to thermal management issues. Cool the battery better and you'll be able to drive harder for longer in addition to being able to charge more quickly without damaging the battery.�
Jul 7, 2016
jkk_ Yeah I was more referring to the latter case. Don't live in Germany so former is no concern of mine. I don't have complaints about overtaking and passing speed as I try not to complain about things I don't have information on. So if anything, it'd be nice if there were more overtaking statistics available - which is IMHO more useful when considering "normal driving". Cf. to 0-60 timings which are plentiful. Mind you, I'm not implying that Teslas would be bad at overtaking, perhaps I could've formed my message better.�
Jul 7, 2016
Garlan Garner You can't quote me on that statement.
People in this forum wants to track their MS's. I don't, however I want street performance which to me is 0-60 in the sub 3's. I have no interest in track distance or quarter mile. I want to street my car not track it.�
Jul 7, 2016
Garlan Garner Amen Amen�
Jul 8, 2016
Red Sage Race the track, not the other cars.�
Jul 8, 2016
Red Sage Streets of Willow and Laguna Seca aren't particularly long drives away for me. I could certainly enjoy an afternoon of tooling about. I'm not likely to do anything that would require a helmet and roll cage be used in my Model ?, though. It would be fun to blow away my buddy who is oh so proud of tracking his MINI. But my favorite 'track' is California State Route 96:
A whole lot closer to me though is Stunt Road:
I really like Piuma Canyon Road as well, which is 'right around the corner'.
![[?IMG]](https://www.google.com/maps/vt/data=RfCSdfNZ0LFPrHSm0ublXdzhdrDFhtmHhN1u-gM,-9wohVcTTJOKCd7sHi6ko-Sx8d4SL602zBPcQsz0v-4TlnMR2uW5YIozPUT6lBvYmUqyU3fFMBVgHxXQKX9S9hjPXsYaZdR6IuMxnZPvKw0azXa9aqEj6C_cRplcfSZNrXc2NToqbgwOC1Q3lMiiJw5SKwpPlaxEkmcayaaMFDQR9gbrogtlwCZlwul8XI7Y5sdDoxxLcofaon_KOk-jjnaNKXfiWxchiA)
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Jul 8, 2016
brianman Indeed. But lately it's becoming more "game the limiter".�
Jul 12, 2016
lklundin Yes, the BEV has the challenge that its working temperature is much closer or even equal to the ambient temperature. Meaning that the much more inefficient ICE with all its problems has an advantage with its working temperature being far above the ambient temperature, making it comparatively easy to cool.
Fundamental physics (the Otto cycle, or just the Carnot cycle) tells us that there is no room temperature high performance ICE, but I don't see that as relevant to the discussion.
What is relevant is that the BEV does have a working temperature close or equal to the ambient temperature, which makes it a challenge to manage even its small heat loss.
California has both a lot of Teslas and some hot deserts. I have experienced both but not at the same time. Will an extended drive through a 45C (113F) landscape in a Model S imply any limit on the delivered power?�
Jul 12, 2016
JeffK That is unless your radiator develops a leak. You'll burn up your ICE pretty quickly when it's not cooled properly.�
Jul 12, 2016
lklundin Although there are probably two orders of magnitudes more things that can break and render an ICE useless than in a BEV, the risk of that actually happening in a modern, well-maintained ICE is low enough to make that less of an issue.
Why am I ending up seemingly defending ICE's, when all I want is to find places where a BEV can be improved?�
Jul 12, 2016
WarpedOne Two words: heat pump.
It adds volume, weight,complexity, costs and reduces efficiency but enables stronger cooling of batteries that start having troubles when more than ~20 degrees above normal ambient temps.
A ~5kW unit should be capable of pumping 15kW of heat.�
Jul 14, 2016
Red Sage That is what is ignored by proponents of ICE, who claim they have 'superior' cooling systems. They don't. They just make the most of the worst they have on hand.
Yes, you do. You just have chosen to ignore it. If an electric vehicle system operated at the same temperature range as an internal combustion engine, and overheated with regularity...? THEN it would be fair to criticize its cooling system as being somehow inadequate. But seeing as an 'overheated' EV is probably half the temperature of an optimally running ICE at idle, it is clear that the EV's cooling system is actually BETTER than the ICE. Also, if all these issues had been worked out already, and ICE vehicles were being newly introduced to the marketplace, people would find it mighty strange than they operated at 200� F to 500� F instead of under 100� F.
Yes. A challenge. One that is being met, with the advance of battery technology and battery management systems. Perhaps battery cells will be developed with a wider useful temperature range. Even if it were 50� F higher and lower, it would fix a lot of issues. If the range were 100� F wider in either direction, that would also improve the operation of the car. Though Tesla Motors vehicles are often called 'computers on wheels', you cannot simply use brute force cooling techniques, as you might on an overclocked custom PC.
Most comment on the amount of range they have in those situations, rather than 'delivered power'. They say they simply 'drive normally'. As you have noted already, it is easier to cool something than it is to warm it.�
Jul 14, 2016
Red Sage Idunno. Because you secretly wish that Tesla Motors vehicles were powered by incredibly inefficient heat generators from Ferrari or Lamborghini?
Isn't a heat pump simply an air conditioner set on reverse? I'm pretty sure that the cooling system Tesla Motors uses already has pumps that are both more efficient and more effective than what you suggest. Because they cool using liquid instead of air. I expect that Tesla Engineers set up the system for the sake of durability and longevity. Thus, the cutoff is probably well within the range of safety.�
Jul 14, 2016
GregRF An air conditioner is a heat pump, as well as a refrigerator or chiller (different names for basically the same thing just different applications). It uses the energy requirement for evaporation and subsequent energy release from condensation to move heat (by changing the pressure it is able to move heat from a cold location and expel it at a hotter location).
Tesla had a short blog on the subject for the roadster.
As seen on the model S diagnostic screen, there is a chiller that is able to be used for battery cooling.
![[?IMG]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/blogger_img_proxy/AEn0k_tytbn2OJKaqAVtqJNQB9UDtFoizVNyJcWiHtznCn81aU0z8znnQP35NypoCNerKp3tGBlxJIvnICU54mnfGQVaUratqsz2K5tERPtgrDMoraOqJ7ueDvgywt45jUC5UaaaS9Qaahm_dkrTp-fBLbLHHSQbykeTnQYIO4Q3g2Rb_phLSU1ifOk=s0-d)
It seems in this configuration the battery would expel its heat to the cooling fluid, which then expels the heat in the chiller to the refrigerant (by evaporation of refrigerant). The refrigerant would then be pumped to a higher pressure to condense at a hotter temperature at the front radiator. This hot temperature condensation would then give a good differential to expel the refrigerant energy to the outside air.�
Jul 22, 2016
Red Sage 
OK! I knew I had something else to contribute to this discussion... Please note, this is the drive inverter for a rear wheel drive Tesla Model S. As specified on the placard for the display, it has a 'Peak power capability of 320kW'. So yeah... If the Model ? is to have a 300+ kW inverter, that is indeed on par with the Model S. Which is no less than I've expected to be the case, for over two years.�
Jul 23, 2016
ggnykk In my opinion, Model 3 ludicrous will NOT be as fast as Model S ludicrous. There is no way Tesla would allow a much cheaper product to outperform their flagship, this is basically business 101.
I think the performance will follow this pattern (1 being the fastest)
1. Model S ludicrous
2. Model X ludicrous
3. Model 3 ludicrous
4. Model S performance
5. Model X performance
6. Model 3 performance
I think there is a small chance that Tesla will give Model 3 the maximum plaid treatment, to make it the fastest car in Tesla lineup. But they will price it more than the Model S/X ludicrous.�
Jul 23, 2016
Jersey Shore Tom It would not be unheard of. I have been told; I have not driven them myself to confirm, that the BMW M3 which is part of their 3 series is much quicker than any of their 5 or 7 series models.�
Jul 23, 2016
Garlan Garner Great point.�
Jul 23, 2016
Garlan Garner Would you be willing to consider the time factor also?
Do you think Tesla would be willing to say that their newest technology is slower and less powerful than their older technology?
I thought the M3 was a totally different design with the newest technology.�
Jul 23, 2016
zenmaster 1) The Model 3 is aiming to be 1000lbs lighter. So Tesla can already use a 25% lower power motor to have equivalent "performance" of the Model S.
2) A large luxury car is not a high performance vehicle in the first place by definition. The 3 series outperforms the 7 series.
3) Straight line acceleration is nothing special for an EV. Tesla would be stupid to cripple the amps. Because their customers will give them money for the option, and if Tesla doesn't do it, another manuf. will.
Tesla should be making the Model 3 a higher performing vehicle than the Model S, because it's a much better platform for that particular purpose.�
Jul 23, 2016
juanmedina I just hope model 3 is as fast as the model X.
The coefficient of drag is also supposed to be much lower on the model 3 than the S. Time will tell how the model 3 will be.�
Jul 23, 2016
JeffK I think there might be confusion as to what the flagship vehicle is...
The vehicle that is everything Tesla has been working toward for the last 10 years, the vehicle which is the resulting achievement of the original master plan is the Model 3 not the Model S/X and not the Roadster.�
Jul 24, 2016
Red Sage A lot of other guys have already told you, but I'd might as well do so as well. The BMW 3-Series outsells every other premium sedan in the entire world. Not some, not half, but every single one of them. Those companies that have offered direct competitors to the 3-Series, without putting Performance at the forefront, have gotten their arses handed to them on a platter for over three decades.
Let's take Lexus as an example, shall we? Until they unveiled their F-Sport series of cars, the Lexus LS marque flagship vehicle was their sacred cow -- nothing in their product line was allowed to approach its Performance. Result? The sport-y look-ing Lexus IS cars got their butts handed to them by a bargemobile in the same product lineup. And, sales of the IS paled in comparison to the 3-Series. Heck, the Lexus ES, a rebranded Toyota Camry/Avalon, outsells the IS too (and still lost to the 3-Series by around 30,000 units)!
Meanwhile? The BMW 3-Series used to use the same engines as the 5-Series and 7-Series... Up to a point. No 12-cylinder or 8-cylinder motors were allowed in the 3-Series. Not that it mattered too much. The inline-4 and inline-6 motors used in the 3-Series outperformed both their counterparts, and alternate drivetrains of 5-Series and 7-Series -- for a whole bunch less money.
Business 101 tells us that BMW's strategy of NOT protecting their flagship vehicle from their mass market vehicle works like gangbusters. Tesla Motors employs smart people who have noticed that fact. So, no... The Model S will not be 'protected' in any fashion from the Model ?. People who want a larger vehicle, with more storage capacity, will get a Model S instead of a Model ?, and that's just fine. Keep in mind that when the Model S was launched, Elon Musk thought that they might be able to manage in the neighborhood of 15,000 to 20,000 units per year, worldwide. By the first half of 2013, he was projecting annual sales of their third generation vehicle would reach 500,000 units by 2020. So, three years before the unveiling of the Model ? he was laying the framework for outselling the Model S by anything from 25:1 to 33:1. It turned out the Model S was much more popular than he had hoped, so it may 'only' be a ratio of around 8:1 or 10:1 instead once Model ? is on the road. For the sake of comparison, during 2015 the BMW 7-Series was outsold by a 10.2:1 ratio by the 3-Series.
At the 15,000 unit per annum goal for Model S, Tesla Motors would have sold seven years worth of cars through the first three-and-a-half years of its Production. There is no reason whatsoever to 'protect' that car from its younger sibling. The Model S is an unmitigated hit, and has outsold AUDI A8, BMW 7-Series, and Porsche Panamera three calendar years straight in the US. And yes, it is leading them all again this year (along with Mercedes-Benz S-Class), with no end in sight.�
Jul 24, 2016
WarpedOne Business 101 says that if you don't do everything that is possible, somebody else will.
If tesla 'bureaucratically' holds back M3, some other company should, must and will offer a direct competitor with better performance.
If one does not cannibalize himself, others will eat his lunch.
No V12 or V8 in 3-series have some techincal reasoning behind, space and weight distribution etc.�
Jul 24, 2016
FlatSix911 Red, Good points regarding the BMW marketing strategy. As a counter point, consider Porsche.
They keep a strict performance hierarchy in their sports car lineup ... Boxster/Cayman/911.�
Jul 24, 2016
Red Sage Yeah, well, that, and... Originally, BMW didn't have any V8s or V12s on offer. So, x18i, x20i, x25i, x28i, x35i were all using the exact same engines whether dropped in a 3-Series, 5-Series, or 7-Series. They might be tuned slightly different from each other, or the gearing might be more aggressive from one to the other, but when it came to bore, stroke, displacement, etc... Same thing.
The Boxster and Cayman are basically the same car in different skin. Combined they outsell the Panamera. I have no idea why the 911 exists. And all of those are outsold by the gawdawful ugly Macan and Cayenne. And none of those cars seem to be able to outsell anything from BMW they compete against.
Porsche is only considered 'successful' because they haven't disappeared entirely as a marque. But if not for the SUVs they offer, Porsche's sales as a whole would be even more insignificant than traditional automobile manufactures consider Tesla Motors. As a brand, Porsche sold only 51,576 vehicles in the US during 2015 (less than Scion, and Toyota pulled the plug on that marque). And of those, 30,007 units were the two SUVs, which amounted to 58.1% of their sales. Without the SUVs, they sold only 21,569 cars, of which 9,898 were the 911 somehow. Tesla Motors will surpass Porsche in sales this year, and likely every year thereafter.
How long before Volkswagen Group decides to pull the plug, give up the ghost, and cut their losses...? Well, luckily there are no real losses because Porsche has very healthy margins on the rattletraps they sell. [FOUL] Porsche.�
Jul 24, 2016
FlatSix911 Agreed...and yet they are the most profitable Automobile producer world wide
Thank God they are helping to keep VW group alive until they go full electric!�
Jul 24, 2016
juanmedina The cheaper Cayman is faster than the higher priced boxer. The Porsche Cayman GT4 is faster around the track than all the boxer variants and most 911 variants and even close to the top of the line 911 GT3.
I really fail for see how you can compare Porsche sports cars with Tesla sedans. The 3 series BMW is the direct benchmark for the Model 3 so that is why is a better comparison.�
Jul 24, 2016
Jayc Now this is where the problem lies... People who buy Porsche and other similar cars like to drive them in normal roads. I know because I happen to know a few even though I don't have one myself. Now go for a ride with them to the town for lunch and they'd tell you how quick it accelerates and they will not miss the opportunity to push hard on 30mph or 50 mph roads. Its that idea that these cars rule the road and that they can never be beaten.
What Tesla has done is totally dismantled that macho image. A seemingly understated family saloon can now outrun a porsche on daily driving. It really doesn't matter how well they will do in a track. That infallibility has been damaged forever to the point that most porsche owners now point out why only track performance matters to them when in reality most never take their cars to the track.
So I can tell you it IS the same market we are talking about, most people don't want to admit that. In fact, wait another 10 years and see what becomes of most supercar brands.�
Jul 24, 2016
Model 3 No, they are not in the same marked segment. What you see is that Tesla is "breaking the rules" and draws customers from a lot of different marked segments. Yes, they define the "premium sedan" segment as the segment Model S and Model 3 will compete in, but as you say, it also draws customers from the "sport car"/"Porsche" segment, and people like me that do not care a bit about "premium" or "performance", but just wants a mid- to long-range BEV. (But yes, I will not mind it a bit if it happens to be sort of quick anyway�
Jul 24, 2016
juanmedina No way... When you are shopping family sedan I don't you will ever consider a two seater sports car�
Jul 24, 2016
Jersey Shore Tom
While I suppose Tesla could say that and explain that the new technology was designed for a smaller, less expensive car, I don't see much evidence that that is what is happening. I think that the report that Tesla is using an inverter in the Model 3 that is as capable as that in the Model S is evidence that they are not doing that. In fact, it may be evidence that @Red Sage is correct and the Model 3 will measurably outperform the Model S. I say this because a small lighter car with better cd and smaller wheels should require less power to match the performance of the bigger car.�
Jul 24, 2016
zenmaster Any car is going to have a myriad of functionality and ability dynamically expressing itself to the driver which together forms an emotional impression. Most sports car buyers are actually looking for this stuff - so it's not your absurdly reduced idea at all. You obviously are not a sports car enthusuiast, otherwise you'd be talking from experience when relating the actual market of sports car buyers.
Porsche and other sports car manufacturers build fun, lightweight cars that actually connect driver to the road in an engaging, inspiring manner - at speed. A completely different experience is necessarily provided from a larger, heavier, long-wheelbase, road dampening car.
A sports car's appeal is not merely some abstract concept of one performance metric, such as straight line acceleration (your idea of 'macho'), but rather the much more holistic experience from driving, including steering-road feedback, feel and handling through turns, braking performance. A good sports car is going to engender confidence and exhilaration from a lot of different driving actions. What you are ignoring is how the car pairs with the driver to engage with the road as a fluid, agile interaction. That is what actually sells most sports cars and coincidentally, what sports car manufacturers have kept improving. The future of transport may belong to the EV, but the horizon is perhaps 5-10 years out for a sports car competitive EV.
Whether or not such an electric sports car will be made by Tesla is unclear as they aren't in that particular business. They still need to create a base revenue from their mass produced cars to fund a competitive sports car.�
Jul 24, 2016
Garlan Garner I'm with you all the way. I believe the M3 will out pace the MS in performance - simply because it will have newer technology ( inverter/batteries ). I don't think Tesla has a quest to may the M3 better - It just that Teslas ideas and parts are improving and being more efficient.
I would hope that every iteration of Tesla is going to be better than the previous.�
Jul 24, 2016
Garlan Garner It has been said that people only drive their cars 3% of the time that they are awake during their lifetime.
If the new inverters and more powerful batteries come to fruition...I'm going to easily push that number to 6% during my lifetime. I'll be taking the "long" way home from now on.�
Jul 24, 2016
Alketi What makes you think the Model S won't get both of these before the Model 3? In fact, Elon has already stated that the Model S will always be first to get the latest technology as the flagship sedan.
New inverters, batteries, motors, and autopilot hardware will begin shipping in the S/X as soon as they're ready for prime time, which I would imagine would be within 6 months. The 3 will get them when it finally ships.�
Jul 24, 2016
Garlan Garner Maybe Elon mis spoke, but I thought he made the statement that I made.
"The M3 will be a total redesign from the ground up with technology not seen on any of our other cars."
That was his quote not mine.�
Jul 25, 2016
Jayc Actually, you've got it the wrong way round.
And most people get it wrong on this one... its not about market segment or handling or track performance or being connected to the road. We are talking about the demography of people getting expensive sports cars just for that feeling of being king on the road. Well guess what... TRex is reborn as Tesla
I said wait 10 years and see. Actually the revolution has already started:
Tesla unseats Porsche as ideal brand with intuitive technology: report - Luxury Daily - Automotive�
Jul 25, 2016
zenmaster Sports car buyers represent less than 10% of the market and of that survey. Therefore the survey impressions can't be representative of sports car buyers. Statistics 101.�
Jul 25, 2016
Garlan Garner I wonder what the survey would look like if the "performance' of sports cars was cheaper...ie M3.
The M3 is going to throw surveys into a bucket of nonsensical wastes of time....just like the M6 has.�
Jul 25, 2016
Red Sage I have long railed against the notion that Porsche builds 'sports cars', because to me, that bookshelf behind the front seats, apparently designed for toddlers or double amputees, disqualifies the 911. To me, a sports car only has two seats. Also, the notion that Porsche cars are 'lightweight' is rather unfair, as they have been getting heavier and heavier over the past 25 years. The race-prepped version of their cars are lightweight, but not the street cars. That is, a lightweight car should be under 2,800 lbs or so, in my opinion. But this is likely just my personal angst, due to the fact I've always hated how automobile magazines have claimed the Chevrolet Corvette was 'too heavy', even when its curb weight was the same, or less than, a Porsche in a comparison test. Or how a Mercedes-Benz SL is lauded for its handling solidity that inspires confidence when it is a two seater that outweighs a Corvette by 700 lbs... The inherent journalistic bias in favor of German brands is a real pain.
Oh? Welcome to 2008.
And 2010...
And 2013...
No. Tesla Motors is not the same as traditional automobile manufacturers. Those companies use their mass market cars to finance the release of their high end cars. Tesla Motors has done the opposite. Their first car was the Tesla Roadster, a low volume high end two seat sports car. They could have easily kept making sports cars and nothing else, for another 15 or 20 years as a niche manufacturer of 'Toys... for the RICH!' But that was not the goal.
The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (just between you and me)�
Jul 25, 2016
Red Sage Mmmm... I got the impression that statement from Elon was in regard to the 'bells and whistles'... Luxury items and feature sets... Not the drive technology. He has been clear that there must be a specific delineation between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation technologies. In order for a Model S or Model X to get the 'latest technology' before the release of Model ?, Tesla Motors would have to release version 2.0 of both those vehicles using Generation III technology throughout. I doubt that will happen. Because the Model S and Model X are Generation II vehicles with perhaps an eight year product cycle. So there probably won't be an 'all new' Model S 2.0 until 2020. Sure, the cars will continue to be improved over the next three or four years, and more. That's just how Tesla Motors does things. But the upgrade path for Generation II vehicles will be different than that of Generation III cars.�
Jul 25, 2016
zenmaster I think anything can be made cheaper with sufficient volume. But who wants sports car performance? Not too many people. The EV crowd are apparently satisfied with "Ludicrous mode" for now. The sports car crowd specifically want overall performance and a particular kind of feel from the car. Will cost a lot more to develop an EV with competitive attributes to most sports cars. It will happen, but not for another 5-10 years when battery weight is reduced significantly and thermal mgmt tech is able to properly cool the pack.�
Jul 25, 2016
FlatSix911 Red, I agree that Porsche and many German AG automakers have lost their way with modern sports cars.
Long gone are the days of cheap, light and agile cars. I still have my 25 year old air cooled cars for fun...
The good news is with the advent of VW diesel-gate, many German automakers are now getting serious about EVs.
The next 5 years will be a very interesting, transformative time in auto history as they catch up on new EV technology.�
Jul 26, 2016
Red Sage I disagree. I think that just about everyone wants to have a sports car. That is, everyone who actually enjoys driving anyway. Those people who only believe that vehicles are necessary appliances to go from one place to another need not apply.
The practicality of life is what prevents people from buying sports cars. The financial concern when one can only afford to own one car at a time... So that car has to be all things for all the purposes they expect to encounter during the ownership process... The fiscal need to own something that doesn't eat gasoline like no tomorrow means that someone who has become used to the mileage of a Civic or Corolla would be appalled by even the fuel economy of a 3-Series, let alone a Corvette or Camaro. Some people need to haul people, and stuff, rather often... So they cannot justify a two-seater convertible with a shoebox for a trunk.
That said, I doubt seriously that there are people that grew up with a poster of a silver/grey Dodge Caravan or Toyota Sienna on their bedroom wall. More likely they looked forward to 'some day' driving something with flowing lines and fenders and a particular emblem... Lamborghini, Porsche, or Ferrari proudly displayed on its flaming red or bright yellow hindquarters.
When gasoline was cheap and plentiful, and a Mustang, Camaro, Firebird, or Challenger could be acquired for $3,000 to $5,000 each, those sold like gangbusters. If it were possible to have the functional equivalent of those vehicles for an effective $25,000 or less, without any of the downsides they offer, they would be incredibly popular today. The Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Honda Civic, and Toyota Corolla may not offer road burning performance, but they certainly set the standard for baseline minimum that consumers are willing to accept for the price. Which is interesting, because their current prices are right in line with what a Camaro, Firebird, or Mustang would have cost 25 years ago.
People want sports cars. They have simply been conditioned to believe they shouldn't or couldn't have one. Electric cars can turn the tables and set a new standard as a baseline minimum. It would be unwise to not take that advantage while it presents itself.�
Jul 26, 2016
FlatSix911 Interesting reading as we are discussing EV sports cars ...
Porsche is ramping up effort to build the all-electric Mission E, will create more than 1,400 jobs [Gallery]
Volkswagen is moving forward with its plan to significantly increase the number of electric vehicles across its brands. Most established automakers seem to focus on plug-in hybrids in order to electrify their lineups, but Volkswagen is committing to all-electric vehicles, which is refreshing, and plans to introduce more than 30 new models and to produce �2 to 3 million all-electric cars a year by 2025� across all of its brands.
One of the first vehicles confirmed under this plan is Porsche�s Mission E, an all-electric luxury sedan. The automaker confirmed on Tuesday it is ramping up its effort to bring the vehicle to market and now plans to create 40% more jobs for the program than anticipated.
�
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