Thứ Bảy, 24 tháng 12, 2016

So, What exactly is the value of a Signature Model S? part 1

  • Sep 21, 2012
    AnOutsider
    Disclaimer: This post may have varying degrees of negative opinions of Tesla. If you're not down for that, it may be better to skip this post. I also don't intend this post to force a line between P and S reservation holders. Everyone made their reservation based on what made sense to them at the time. I'm simply trying to get a grasp on what value there is for the ones who opted to pay more.

    Now, I don't mean value as in cost, as we know that. I mean, what value does it provide its owners? For those who may not know, the Signature reservation holders were required to put down $40,000 vs the $5,000 for normal production reservations. We pay a premium over a similarly configured car, while we also get a reduced list of options when it comes to paint color.

    I believe all sig owners thought, at the time of reservation, there would be something of value here. Here's some of what was conveyed and/or assumed:


    • Almost fully loaded: True. The only things we're missing are the pano roof and rear seats... Though, we pay more than those options would have cost anyway.
    • Earlier delivery: Well, we SORT of got that, though I think my P# would likely have come a month or less behind my S#. (and I can't deny it IS a bit frustrating to get your car after someone who reserved 6 months ago whilst you've been waiting 3.5 years).
    • Exclusive Options: We got red paint and white leather. That's it. If you didn't want red paint or white leather, well... tough.
    • Signature Badging: We had it on the dash (above the glovebox), on the door sills and on the rear in earlier vehicles. Now, I believe there's the faintest of etchings on the silver strip on the trunk and on the turn signals. You also get it on the screen behind the steering wheel.
    • Exclusive Events: After the October tour, it was mentioned there would be more events (at the factory and otherwise) for signature holders. I believe the Model X event was sig holders only, but I'm not sure, and outside of that, nothing.
    • Perks: Who didn't expect SOME perks?
      • We get 1 year free 3G data. This is good, but we don't really know what the value of this is going forward.
      • So far, nothing else is known.

    So far, I'd say the sig tax has not been worth it (nor has the 40k loan to Tesla), and with the above remaining constant, it's a sure thing I'd cancel my X reservation. However, here are some things that I personally think Tesla can do to offset this and earn back some good will:



    • Free Satellite Radio: Include at LEAST a year. Every car I've ever bought that came with Sat radio has come with at least a 3 month trial (6 in one case). I think every model S should come with at least 2-3 months. According to dadaelus, the SIG owners don't even get that. Psh, we deserve at least a year paid. (granted, with internet radio and free 3G, the case could be made that's a good substitute, but that depends on cell coverage which is spottier than sat radio, and Tesla has not yet implemented all the streaming apps).
    • Include the prepaid maintenance plan: 4 years of free maintenance (including Ranger visits) would pretty much seal the deal IMO.
    • Swag!: During the early days of the wait, Tesla sent out a few swag items. I'm the proud owner of a nice gift pack and a lead-painted model Roadster. As silly as it sounds, those items, during the long, dark days, really helped to keep the spirits up about what the future would bring. With over 13k reservation holders now, that definitely seems a bit much to tackle, but there are a more manageable number of sigs...
    • Insider stuff: Give us early access to new features, newsletters, tidbits. Communicate with us! Just show us you frickin appreciate what we did to keep your pockets lined!

    Thoughts?
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Discoducky
    Would I trade all the current known benefits for the price difference? Assuming I was already interested in the 85kWh battery and other options....Hells yes. Why? I think the badging is super cool and will allow the vehicle to hold a higher resale value because of it (my guess is that it will hold up enough overtime to account for the delta sans interest or investment opportunities).

    But I'm getting the 60kWh battery so not sure my opinion holds much weight.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    AnOutsider
    So you'd pay 3-5k extra for badging in 3 locations (2 of which are barely visible)? If they'd kept the door sills, I might have said its worth an extra 1-1.5 -- more if the other badging looked more substantial than quick laser etching at "all things remembered".
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    donauker
    It certainly doesn't appear to have been the case with the Roadster and they had the plaque with all the signatures and the number X of 100. Limited production vehicle and much more exclusive and no apparent extra value at this time. Could change in the future I guess.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Zythryn
    Definitely worth it. I feel I am playing a, minor, role in history!
    I am supporting a small start up company that is doing what the 'big boys' were unable or unwilling to do.
    I am helping support Tesla in their ultimate goal of producing economical electric cars.
    Since I have the funds, I feel it is my duty to my country, the people it it, and the generations that will follow to minimize my personal contribution to our federal financial deficit as well as our environment.
    I am PROUD to be helping, in a minor way, usher in the age of vehicle electrification.

    Oh, and for all this I get a really cool car:)
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    mnx
    I think getting a sig may be worthwhile if you are say Jason Calcanis and will have had your car 3+ months before general production...

    For me, I cancelled my sig a few weeks ago once it was time to lock in, I know at the very last minute... It just didn't seem worth it (I was not getting red paint, or white leather) I like you kept holding out thinking there may be some kind of unannounced benefit. (like bundled maintenance for 4 years or whatever)

    In my case I'll have saved >8k by not going with a sig. (However if Canadian sigs are rolling around for several months before I have mine I'll probably be disappointed.)
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    AnOutsider
    Too true. I think many sigs are. I fear there may come a time when we get the "no, that's it" answer and then everyone will jump on about how we weren't promised anything else, so shouldn't be disappointed yadda yadda. It seems much with Tesla is faith, and then when things don't pan out, it's "well, no one ever said it would".

    ..and yes, delivery during the summer would have actually had some value.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    teslasguy
    Hey Outsider,
    I hear you. I was going to upgrade to the Sig option quite a while ago but ended up sticking with my P1117 reservation, and now glad I did.
    I was going to upgrade based upon a Tesla rep telling me that if I upgraded and later changed my mind I could switch back to my original P# and not have to go to the end of the P line. However, when I called Tesla hdq. a few days later to actually arrange my extra $35k deposit, I was told that if I later changed my mind I would have to go to the end of the P Line. I explained that I was told by a rep traveling with the Prototype tour car that wasn't the case the rep just said the other rep was wrong. So I just decided to stick with my current number. Interestingly now I know that we live within about an hour of each other and I might be one of those that gets my P car within a month or so of you, so I can understand your frustration. Hey, if I get mine before you get yours, I'll drive out and and take you for a ride! Ok, ok... NOT funny. ;-)
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    mnx
    Yeah, I've been watching your posts the last few weeks. I hate to say it but I think at this point "No that's it". I had the luxury of being contacted later to finalize than you guys so I could make that assumption with more certainty. I think the conversation I had with my father in law pushed me over the edge. I told him pricing was released in Canada and he asked how much? I sheepishly said starts at 60k, and then told him my car was going to be 118k. His jaw nearly hit the ground. I then calculated that money saved on the sig premium (with a similarly configured car) could buy 5 sets of 21" tires, or electricity for 250,000km! Or put another way: electricity for >80,000km, 2 sets of tires and service for the first 2 years.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    aviators99
    If my decision to buy hadn't been so early, I definitely would have paid the Signature premium---and definitely would have been really upset right now!
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Adstein
    I too cancelled my sig at the last moment and went back to my original P#. No issues getting my old place in line either. I really wanted the sig to be unique and if so would have stayed with it but red was not my favorite color and I did not want white leather. Went with performance general production and will wait a few more months. I really want Tesla to succeed but could not justify the sig premium and disadvantages.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    STxTesla
    I believe that there is no real value or benefit to having a Signature series. I decided that I wanted the car sooner than April/May of 2013...so I went for the upgrade to Sig. I was hoping that there would be a benefit to having a Sig....but looks like there's really nothing other than early delivery. I reserved a Sig so late in the game....I didn't even get any of the swag.

    I guess the rewarded feeling for being a Sig owner will happen the day that Tesla gets to my house to unload my new Model S.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Arnold Panz
    AO, thanks for bringing these issues to a discussion in one location. You and I have always been on the same page with most of these issues.

    This is a double-edged sword, because we didn't get the choice to not take any options. This is why it was so surprising to me that they charged a premium to Sig holders, because assuming Tesla makes some profit off each option, they basically double-dipped on their best/most loyal customers who gave them a $40k interest free loan already.

    This was the biggest/only reason I kept my Sig reservation after they announced pricing, and I feel like a dupe for not realizing the s-curve of production. I was really willing to pay the premium (begrudgingly) to jump the line by three months, but for a one month difference it's an absurd premium to be paying. For anyone who came late to the game and jumped the line by 6 months or more, it's totally understandable and potentially a good reason to pay the Sig premium.

    And if you want blue or green or dolphin grey exterior (or grey interior), tough!

    At the event in October, the demo car that Elon drove on stage had a cool-looking "Model S Signature" badge on the back right above the bumper. Wish they had kept that, although I can live without too much garish "I PAID TOO MUCH FOR THIS CAR" type of badging and respect the quest for subtlety in this area.

    I think this is highly unlikely because it will cost Tesla hard dollars that they have to pay to Sirius/XM. In other words, offering us free Satellite Radio will require Tesla to foot the bill. Your suggestions below (free maintenance plan, e.g.) doesn't cost Tesla any "hard" dollars, only lost potential revenue for work to be otherwise done by their own employees.

    No question this would be awesome, but what on earth makes you think that after banging us for the additional Sig premium they're going to take a "loss" on us at the back end by offering this for free? Again, much of it is psychological, but if they had charged us $7500 for the Sig premium and then said "maintenance is free!" that would have probably gone a long way, but I don't think they had this in mind, and I really don't think that they intend to give Sig owners (who they must view as having money to burn anyway and not interested in pinching pennies) any sort of significant monetary breaks.

    Amazingly, this is what has shocked me the most. The fact that we, as Sig holders, have gotten absolutely no special treatment has been a huge miss. These were mostly Tesla's truest of true believers, plunking down $40,000 for a car that we had no guarantee would ever be made, let alone be a great car. For some that's a drop in the bucket, but for others (myself included), it's a huge amount of money. How was that blind faith rewarded? I'm still trying to figure that out, and the worst part is, they took ultra-fan boys like me and, while not exactly turning me against Tesla, put me in the position of exasperated relief as I get near my delivery date, instead of the unbridled joy I should be feeling after 3.5+ years of waiting.

    A lot of this is basic psychology -- why are people who are paying almost six figures for a car complaining about $600/year in maintenance? The same reason high rollers who gamble $500-$1000 or more a hand in Vegas demand free rooms, tickets to shows and free meals for the same cost as one hand of blackjack (and choose their hotel on who provides the best "perks"). BMW bakes the cost of maintenance into the cost of the car and everyone thinks they're getting "free" service! Tesla was probably trying to be different and do things with transparency, but just didn't understand the basic psychology that makes BMW's program so popular.

    The same is true for Sigs -- additional swag, "insider" informational e-mails, free satellite and free maintenance wouldn't make the Sig premium cost effective, but would have psychologically given us all the warm and fuzzies such that we would have felt like we were getting special treatment that made the excess cost worthwhile. It's the difference between thinking with one's heart versus one's head -- as much as existing car companies screw up many things, one thing they understand and get right is how emotions play a HUGE role in car buying, and playing on those emotional factors is something that Tesla has unfortunately not mastered yet.

    - - - Updated - - -

    This was me -- I asked about dropping my Sig after the pricing came out, and they said they would "try" to get me back "near" my old number, but obviously could not guarantee me anything. I basically felt trapped into staying with the Sig reservation, and that was before I understood how little time difference there actually was between when the cars would be delivered.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Charged_Up
    Although I might quibble with the bennies, I absolutely agree with the above and would only add that the Sig was presented originally as a limited production car with exclusive features that would not be available in general production. Other than a specific shade of red paint and white leather, there appears to be nothing that is exclusive. Agree that Tesla missed the mark with all Sig reservations save those to whom Tesla is a religious experience. For $100k and a 40k deposit years ago, there should have been more attention paid.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    AnOutsider
    Arnold, you 100% reflect my feelings on the matter and put that into words so much better than I -- especially the exasperated relief vs jubilation. Folks ask me when my car is coming now, and I just shrug. I'm really not very excited about it, I just feel like it's a chore/burden that I now just want out the way.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Tommy
    To answer the OP's original question:

    If my finances permitted, I would have opted for the Signature. We live in a world of mass production and when an item is produced in limited quantities there is an inherent value imo that a dollar figure cannot be assigned to; I would have loved to be part of that small group of owners.

    If you bought the car with the mind frame of someone buying a limited production, the extra price you paid shouldn't have entered into the thought process; supply and demand dictate a limited production item will command a higher price than a mass produced item. Unfortunately, it seems some of the Signature purchasers have discounted or entirely ignored that one quality of Signature ownership and hence the frustration over the disparity in price between the Sig and general production.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    ckessel
    Cancelled my Sig (354 if I recall) right after pricing was announced for many of the reasons AO noted. I suppose from Tesla's perspective they may cost more to develop (special paint, limited run badges, limited run white interior, etc), but from a customer perspective I never saw much there that justified the cost. At least not for an early reservation holder like AO (or even mine at P2840).

    Now, for a late reservation holder jumping the line by thousands of people had quite a bit of value. I'm not sure what Tesla could do about that though.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    AnOutsider
    Logical thinking to be sure, but history says otherwise:

    Honestly, if I came across 2 Model S in the future with similar configurations, but one was 5k more and had the signature badging, I'd get the cheaper one. It's not like we have 1200 unique cars in NA. These aren't a real limited production run. The only thing limited is the badging and the paint (leather too I guess). The basic gist of these cars will be produced for years to come (barring Tesla going under, which seems very unlikely). Now, one of only 333 R8 GTs made and shipped to North America? That's a different story. Those are different cars, not the same cars with different badging.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Todd Burch
    I think you sigs will get another bone thrown at you at the supercharger event...but overall I feel bad that you overall didn't receive much special treatment.

    Will Sig cars be worth more? Yes, a little. Did you get some exclusive benefits? Yes. Did they end up being worth the price? No, I don't think so. At least take solace in knowing that you helped finance the force that led the big automakers to an EV future.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Beavis
    The fact of the matter is that there are 1,000 people in the US who believe in the value of a Signature reservation and feel good enough about it to put their money down and maintain that reservation. Sorry non-Sigs, your judgements or opinions on this on this really don't matter to Tesla.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    AnOutsider
    This is an open conversation, and many of those talking are sigs or sigs that downgraded.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Discoducky
    no, I'm just calling it out as my long term favorite.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Doug_G
    I find myself doing exactly that, but more because the delivery dates have been slowly sliding into the future, and every answer I've given to date has proved wrong.

    I too think the Signature is a disappointment in terms of value, yet I can't bring myself to switch.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    ipdamages
    The benefits of owning a Sig over a P at this point seem to be few, as has been discussed at length. However, recall that there was a $10,000 discount for Roadster owners who ordered a Model S. Model S on Tesla website - Page 2

    Many of the Sigs are in that category, so the actual revenue to Tesla is significantly less on those cars - such that there isn't much room for more goodies for owners of those cars, and in fact Tesla is losing money on those cars if you include all of the costs (e.g., amortization of any R&D), and even the incremental profitability by only including variable costs is not healthy. At this time, Tesla is simply in a tight spot financially, and giving away more stuff to early adopters is hard to justify. So for those who aren't happy with early delivery and a scant list of benefits, that's totally understandable. Tesla seems to be fine with that rather than sweetening the deal. A colleague of mine got his Model S last Friday, and he had Sig reservation #89, but he actually got car #71 because of the drop-outs. As to whether it is wise to do this, time will tell. Obviously some people feel duped, and I would have too. When I asked Franz 2 years ago about benefits of a Sig over a P, he told me they were working that out but that I would definitely want a Sig and there would be cool benefits (more than just the red paint). Along the way things got compromised, but getting the car to market and trying to survive as a company is not all rainbows and unicorns.

    As for me, I'm like many in that while I dig my Roadster, the Model S is just too big for me, so I'll be driving my Roadster and waving my Tesla pom poms until the Gen III comes out.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Sparrow
    20/20 vision would have had me reserve a Sig and a P at the same time and then pick which was the best at the last moment, but I wasn't that smart so I am stuck with the Sig's extra cost and Red with White interior to at least get something special out of it. Would love green with tan interior at this time.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Lyon
    I can see one situation in which (in retrospect) going with the Sig mades sense (other than really wanting the red/white). Say one decided to reserve in early January 2012. Your P# would have been in the 8000 range (if I recall correctly) and you would probably be looking at a Feb/Mar 2013 delivery window. If, however, you got on the tail end of the Sig list, your delivery window would be more like Oct/Nov 2012. So you've gotten your car about 3-4 months earlier and that may make it worth the extra money.

    Then again, everyone has his or her own reasons for doing thing. I see simply wanting to show your enthusiastic support for Tesla by giving them a bigger deposit as a valid reason as well. I started with a regular, went up to sig and then back to regular because I really wanted a blue or green one. And, as it turns out, the delta on delivery times would have only been about a month or two.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Arnold Panz
    I feel like you and I were major fanboys who got beaten down over time by Tesla and are now unfortunately at this point. Maybe the wait was too long? It's the weirdest feeling not to be feeling elation as my delivery is a month away.

    I've thought a lot about this the last week or two and just think that Tesla (predominantly run by really, really smart people with technical backgrounds) completely misunderstood and underestimated the emotional and psychological aspects of this experience. I used the Vegas analogy because my friends and I are planning a trip there, and I was laughing about how my high roller friends are haggling over which hotel is giving them the best deal when they spend more on one hand of blackjack than their entire room bill for the weekend. It's not logical, but those little goodies that the hotels give them to make them feel "special" make all the difference.

    The service charge actually made me feel better -- if Tesla had simply added $1500-$2000 to the base price of the cars (which is what I assume BMW does) and said "free maintenance for everyone!" everyone would be jumping for joy instead of the anger and dropped reservations we've seen. It's not logical, but psychologically it's a night and day difference. The same Spock-like instincts are biting Tesla in the behind, unfortunately, as they did with everything related to the Sigs.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Doug_G
    They quietly terminated that discount offer towards the end of 2009. It's not clear when it actually ended. I'm aware of only ONE Canadian who actually got the discount, and he had to go to bat with Tesla over it.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Joel
    I beg to differ. Not all 1,000 people in the US believe in the value of a Signature reservation. My father, brother, and I all have Signature performance Model S'. I am the only one with "Signature Red" (none of us opted for the "Signature White Leather"). None of us find any true value or exclusivity to being a "Signature" reservation holder. We are resigned to the fact that we paid more money to help Tesla's 2012 cash flow. We're not happy about it. It is what it is.

    From our perspective we find no true value or exclusivity because we currently tell no one (outside of these forums) that our cars are "Signature." Previously, we told friends/family, etc. that we had "Signature" cars, but this led to many awkward conversations. For example, the early delivery is a matter of weeks before general production (we won't receive it until Mid/Late October). My father and I have received October delivery windows (my brother has not received a delivery window). If Tesla plans on coming anywhere near 5,000 units, general production deliveries will occur in November. So, all the friends/family we communicated that we had "Signature" cars/early deliveries are now asking "where's your car? Has your car been delayed again?" The next awkward question is: how much does your Model S cost? Being that the general public's perception is the Model S is expensive to begin with, I'm always reluctant to get into a full-blown value/cost/expense conversation. It's an exhausting conversation. The "Signature Premium" only complicates this value/cost/price/expense conversation. My father, brother, and I simply priced out a fully-loaded general production car, which is something like $6,500 less than our "Signature" equivalent (I can't remember the exact figure). That is the "price" we provide friends/family, etc. regarding the price of our Model S'. Also, the $6,500 really was not worth the red over Black or White. I love the red, but that is the only benefit I've experienced.

    It is what it is. At this point, we simply want delivery of the car(s). We have no expectations of recouping our "Signature Premium," or receiving any additional benefits, etc.

    Not that anyone asked for it, but my 2 cents is: Tesla could put this issue to rest by simply providing Signature Owners with:
    -Additional 3 years of free "Signature 3G Connectivity" (4 years total)
    -A "Signature Opportunity Console"
    -4-Year Anywhere Service Plan
    -A 3rd key FOB

    The "Signature" premium still exceeds these proposed "Signature" benefits. My back of the envelope calculations are: $40 a month for 3G coverage (just an estimate), $2,400 for the 4-year anywhere service plan, and $2,000 for an opportunity console (just an estimate), and $325 for a 3rd key FOB.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    AnOutsider
    Indeed, that would be the best value IMO.

    I, too, felt this way. But it doesn't seem like Tesla is as enthusiastic about US, so my enthusiasm for THEM has waned. I just got my delivery call, and kinda rushed the guy off the phone so I could finish another conversation. Just not feeling it.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    brianman
    Regarding the red exterior and white interior...
    As of a few months agao, I no longer think of these as Sig benefits. More specifically, not being able to get (for example) blue exterior with grey interior in a Sig means that they've made the "exclusive options" into "limiting options". And don't even get me started on Sunset Red likely available < 3 months after all U.S. Sigs are delivered.

    Sig donation. It's the only healthy way to think of it at this point.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Joel
    Well said.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Beaker
    When Carol Shelby build his Cobra Mustangs back in the '60s is was well known what changes he made. All the parts he used were freely available on the market, so anyone could take a "regular" mustang and turn it into a Shelby Mustang. The looked the same, went just as fast, & handled the same, but they were still not Shelby Mustangs. These days you can pretty much add a 0 to the price of a replica to get to the price of the real thing.

    Only time will unveil if a Signature will have more value than an identically configured "regular" Model S which lacks the Signature pedigree in it's VIN.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    KBF
    At this point, for me the only benefit is early delivery. It is still unknown, but I'm holding out hope for delivery immediately following US Sigs, and I don't believe we'll see Canadian P's until 2013. I did get Red/White, and I like the look, but I would have gladly taken other colors. I've requested to be et an extra set of 19" wheels with winter tires at "no cost" (since they will take my downgrade to 19" rims at no discount), so we'll see about that (did the math and they would still come out ahead). They had an opportunity with the maintenance plan (which would have been logical since we're not getting earlier cars that are essentially unfinished), but failed there, too. So mark me down as one who MAY see some value, but would never recommend a Signature to anyone else unless they are swimming in cash.

    Tesla told me several times that they wanted me to be happy with what I ordered, that I should be happy with what they already revealed and not base my decision on possible perks. HOWEVER, I did, and the deciding factor was early delivery. If that doesn't happen I'll be upset. I too don't mention to anyone anymore that I'm a Signature holder. This is telling; we should be proud of it, but right now most of us are a little embarrassed.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    pilotSteve
    +1 micheganmodels. I am one of the last sigs (#1140) and have not heard any delivery dates beyond my rep telling me that Tesla intends to deliver all Sigs by end of October.

    However the service cost has been a burr in my undies. It just irritates me and muddies the value proposition as many of us have discussed in other threads.

    bottom line: I really agree with you that Sig owners deserve (at least) 3G subscription and full Service to be included for 4 years as part of the Sig premium we paid.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Andrew Wolfe
    I don't think I'm getting anywhere near the value for the money from my Sig. It looks like I am not even getting production in the right order anyway. My P-number was in the 100s so I may only get the car 2-3 weeks early. Since I got the performance - there are really no differences other than badging and the red paint. Not much for 7K. Closer to 9.5K if I include the extra paint and dual chargers that I don't really need. I had expected an upgraded interior and other percs. Never happened.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    strider
    Many is quite a strong statement. It was a limited time offer that began after reservations started (so the super early adopters didn't get it) and ended before the first factory event. The SSL list is 244 per the reservation thread but that isn't compressed for drops (I was R180-something then SSL199 and then after finding out I wouldn't get the discount and once options and pricing was released dropped back to R456). So I would expect it's around 100 cars, maybe 150. So maybe 10%?
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    donauker
    At SSL 147 I was in long after the discount was gone. I only went for it after the 300 mile battery was stated to be available. I wasn't interested in less range than my Roadster.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    mlascano
    I'm also on this boat. I had rationalized after much disappointment when pricing was revealed over the winter that the main perk of the Sig series would be early delivery (and we all know now that the S-shaped ramp up has significantly shortened the expected gap between last Sigs and first Ps). But I've also been hoping at each new announcement by TM that some added value would be given to Sigs. The 1-yr 3G data plan is OK but I had high hopes on the service being included for the first 4 yrs (alla BMW) --> didn't happen (still hoping TM reconsiders, big PR blunder after all the talk of how little maintenance EVs need).

    Now I'm hoping that they give Sigs free unlimited access to Superchargers (let's see what they announce next week), a free center console insert for those who want it, and/or free retrofit of features added down the line, etc.... add your favorite perk to this list, just hoping for SOMETHING extra to add some value to the Sig premium.

    I won't hold my breath on any of this though. And as KBF puts it, rather than feeling proud of being on the Sig list and singing praises to everyone about TM and Model S, I have that nasty sensation one feels after being taken advantage of. Sure hopes delivery wipes this away somewhat (and here I am waiting for the call/email...).
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Tommy
    @ mlascano, based on your Sig number, had you reserved a production instead you wouldn't be getting an S this year. That has to be worth something, no?
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    qwk
    You put into words exactly how this is and feels. Thanks. The Vegas analogy is spot on.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    mlascano
    Tommy, I would have been ~P5000. So yes, early delivery was a big factor in going Sig rather than P, and yes, that is worth something. But as pointed out by many in posts above mine, the premise behind the Sig series was not solely early delivery but exclusivity, almost fully loaded car, etc. and it is here where the Sig premium is failing to live up to my expectations.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    dsm363
    They could easily throw in the service plan for Sig cars but that could make other people angry as well. Maybe connectivity included for 4 years instead of 1. They do need to step it up a little to make the Sig reservation worth the deposit. I'm still happy I'm getting the car though.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Lyon
    I hope that you get a little bit of that zeal back once you get your car!
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    dsm363
    My delivery person is very excited about the delivery process and has been very nice so it of course varies with each person.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    NigelM
    Is was suggested on another thread that Tesla should do this and just bump up the 2013 price level to compensate.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Joel
    I'm happy I'm getting the car as well. Another point worth making is: failing to provide any value for Model S Signatures could hurt interest in Model X Signatures. For example, my wife wants (and we will most likely get) a Model X. She asked if we should get a Model X Signature. I laughed, and she laughed too. I told her if we got a Model X, we can refer to it as our Signature Model X, and it will be our $9,000 secret.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    dsm363
    I agree they should that. They could just say 'everyone who places a reservation after October 1st, 2012 will get free 4 year maintenance. Base cost is now $59,800.'
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    ckessel
    There's probably a certain amount of anticipation fatigue at this point. It's hard to stay excited for as long as some of us have reserved. When you hit that fatigue point the highs (a delivery call) aren't going to jazz you as much as it should and the lows (service costs) are going to feel worse than they normally would.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    DrComputer
    A few weeks ago I asked Jeremy Snyder (not sure of his current title but he's moved up from the SoCal regional manager) about this very issue. Here was my e-mail and his response. Interpret his answer as you will.

    My e-mail to him:

    I�mstill a bit confused about is the �extra special something� that was promisedto Signature owners. So far from all of the people I�ve read about orspoken to that have taken delivery of their Signature S, they haven�t receivedanything special. No special Jacket, no nice set of leather travel bagsfor the car, no signed plaque, nothing. What happened to makingSignatures owners who paid a premium feel special by getting something morethan delivery a few weeks before regular owners?

    His response:
    Don't worry, it's in the works and we will be "following"some of the earliest owners. I don't want to ruin the surprise, but givenI had a hand in the idea, I think it's really nice.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    AnOutsider
    Haha. I don't want a Tesla stalker, thanks. It sort of sounds like an owners video series? If so (and this is of course speculation), our big thank you is becoming marketing material!
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    dsm363
    I really want a custom Tesla Model S Signature Red corporate jacket:smile: Really though, even something small like that, while not that much in the monetary sense for the Sig premium, would be a nice touch. I hope it's something more substantial though.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    AnOutsider
    Haha, I hear ya. I'm going to give them a bit of time before I decide to downgrade or not. Actually, getting the X in general will come down to how my experiences with the S go.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    STxTesla
    The numbers that have been mentioned regarding the extra cost of the Signature has been anywhere from $6,100 to $9,000. This is not the only extra cost that we spent on getting a Sig. The $40,000 deposit sounds like a big number, (and of course it is), but if you want to really look at the picture clearly, the cost of getting a Sig sounds even bigger when presented in the following way:

    The 1,000 U.S. Signature Series owners paid, (using the $6,100 number here), an extra $6.1 million dollars to Tesla for their cars.
    The 1,000 U.S. Signature Series owners also collectively paid $40,000,000.00 in advance to become a Signature Series owner.

    So....we gave Tesla at least $6.1 million extra and a $40 million dollar loan to boot.

    I got a key chain.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    clmason
    The big perk is using the super charger network. If you own a Sig and live near a charger corridor, which I assume will be deployed in close proximity of the customer base, you will get near exclusive use for th first 6-12 months.

    IMO a manifestation of the EV dream is road tripping in a high performance car. Charging for pennies on the dollar amd with a fast turn around. The Sigs get to live the dream first!
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    AnOutsider
    Basis for this? Also not sure that would even be that beneficial for everyone. I think most people are planning on getting by without them, but even those who travel a lot shouldn't need the SC much.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    Arnold Panz
    Agree. Other than an occasional trip to Orlando or Naples, I'll probably never use a Supercharger. Maybe 2-3 times a year, max
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    ipdamages
    Wow, I hadn't realized that the $10k discount got shut down so quickly. I know it was long gone before I became an owner.

    Also, I know everyone wants Tesla to have 5,000 deliveries this year and for the recently announced delivery dates to hold, but I just don't think recent events are very encouraging there. As I wrote earlier, car 71 was delivered last Friday, to the person with Sig 89 reservation. It is hard to imagine them delivering the next 800+ cars in a month or two. But I hope I'm wrong.

    As a result, the real Sig benefit of early delivery may prove more meaningful than it is currently valued.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    StephRob
    I too am quite disappointed in the value of the Signature cars. At this point, I do kind of regret reserving one. I like the red though and I do think that there may be a small resale premium for the Sig Red ones since some people may also value that color.

    However, the point of me posting is to point out one other small benefit of purchasing a Sig (albeit one that is only practical to take advantage of by a small subset of Sig purchasers): the ability to take a tour of the Tesla factory. I am taking delivery at the factory and looking forward to seeing it. I plan to bring my kids, husband and father. How often can you see a state of the art manufacturing facility here in the US? It will be fascinating.

    (From other posts on this Forum, I don't believe that non-Sigs can do a factory tour. If I'm wrong, never mind and consider me even more unhappy about the Sig decision!)
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    rlawson4
    The value is simple. There are getting cars right now. The rest of us are waiting.
    �
  • Sep 21, 2012
    olanmills
    I always thought that the primary value was the vanity (don't meant that in a negative way) and collectibility of a special edtion. Sigs are also getting deliveries first, and of course there are going to be P's right after them. I hope no sig holder's expected some kind of arbitrary production delay just to give sig drivers some exclusivity.

    Anyways, this seems pretty similar to other cars that have some kind of special/limited edition badging when there is also a "standard" model available. Usually the value is in a few small touches to the trim.
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    dsm363
    The difference for someone who reserved when I did is about $5,000 or so to move up from early November to late September and the Signature Red paint. I was promised a 'unique set of options that could not be replicated in the general production' as well. I knew they really had no idea what Signature meant at that time since the design wasn't finalized and they hadn't even bought a factory yet. Was still hoping they'd follow through with that. Anyway, it still holds some value, just don't think it will mean much in a few years if anyone tried to sell it. I don't plan on selling it anytime soon so probably won't matter.
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    Arnold Panz
    Steph, I'm about 99% sure that regular Ps will have the option of factory delivery. They built that whole area in the back of the factory for deliveries, and I can't imagine they did all that only for the couple hundred (at most) from Cali who could take factory delivery.
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    StephRob
    I'm sure factory delivery is available to everyone, but will non-Sigs get the tour? I kind of had the impression (thought I read it here somewhere but now can't find it) that only Sigs get a tour. Figured it was because the relatively low volume of deliveries during the Sig phase made it more feasible for Tesla.
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    Arnold Panz
    That's possible, but again a limited benefit, even if true, because it is only for people who can reasonably pick up their car at the factory.
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    STxTesla
    Tesla Motors Stock options would be really nice....:D
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    gg_got_a_tesla
    The tour's on the cards for everyone picking up at the factory. Confirmed by a Model S delivery experience program manager before.
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    huntjo

    My guess is this is his cute way of suggesting we will get free supercharger access. Not bad, but its not universally useful for some folks. For example, I'd love to take my on a road trip to Albuquerque or Texas, but I don't see any supercharger really being built between here and there.
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    weccman
    A lot of good points have been made in this thread about legitimate concerns that Tesla's Model S signature customers have not gotten much value for the money they have invested to be among the earliest Model S customers. I just calculated that I could have ordered the exact same car with more options for exterior color for just under $7K less than I will pay had I stayed a production customer, and I probably would still have gotten my car in late 2012. I hope the supercharger announcement and whatever else they have planned to try to convince us that we spent our money wisely are persuasive.

    Where I part company from AnOutsider, Arnold Panz, and others is the feeling that now that the car is arriving, the thrill is gone. I am still really pumped at the thought that I will be driving this car in three or four weeks (assuming there are not further delays). I can't imagine being mediocre in my enthusiasm because I may have overspent to get the car a few weeks earlier. I'm not so wealthy that I can blithely throw that amount of money around without a thought. But I am still focused on having a positive role in the development of this amazing company. I hope the rest of you regain your enthusiasm when the car arrives.
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    AnOutsider
    I didn't mean to give the impression that I didn't care and was just throwing money away. Comparing the level of enthusiasm I had even just 4-5 months ago to now though presents a pretty stark contrast. I'm sure I'll probably enjoy the car -- the company is what I'm more disappointed with, so that does dampen the mood a bit.
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    ckessel
    In the end, it is just a car and it's just a car company. Even if Tesla succeeds beyond anyone's wildest dreams, we're still just waiting on a car that takes us from point A to B. Even great shifts take years to happen and they are only clean, crisp transitions when written in the history books.

    Part of me wants to be part of this shining company leading the way. The reality is a struggle to ship, struggle to make money, slowly clawing it's way into the market, creating a tipping point. That shining company will never really exist except perhaps through the lens of history...even if I wish it were otherwise.
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    dsm363
    The value to me is that in 12 hours I'll have my Model S:smile:
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    ckessel
    Is it ok if I hate you just a little bit right now? I'll get over it, honest.
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    AnOutsider
    Go to bed bum
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    sp4rk
    Why?

    I was taught growing up, and adhere to this philosophy today, that I will NOT wear any "corporate clothing" without being paid to be their billboard.

    Not even for Tesla, a company that I have believed in so much ... yet like this OP, today I feel far less enthusiastic than not long ago.
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    Arnold Panz
    Me too. It's more of a visceral thing for me -- I've found myself in the last couple of months not shamelessly shilling for Tesla like I used to, to the annoyance of my friends and family (and some strangers!). I don't daydream about the day I get the car the way I used to. It wasn't a conscious decision, but almost like Tesla had beaten the enthusiasm out of me with the various missteps over the last several months. I'm still excited about getting the car and wouldn't consider getting anything else, but if I was at 100 a year ago on a 0-100 scale of excitement/pro-Tesla feelings, I'm probably in the mid-70s now.

    And to reiterate, I don't blame anyone specifically at Tesla for this. With respect to all non-executives (i.e., the people we actually interact with in person and on the phone). they are to a person fantastic and everything Tesla can/should want in its employees. I don't have a bad word to say about any of them. Even the decision-makers in corporate who have done things that I've disagreed with (e.g., GeorgeB, although not exclusively him by any means), I don't for one second think that they did anything with ill will intended or out of a desire to upset customers, particularly Sigs. My disappointment is that their insularity and lack of experience clearly showed in how they've handled us over the past several months, leading to the ennui some of us have now.

    I actually expected that, as their most invested customers, Tesla would perhaps seek out Sig reserverationists' opinions on things they were doing/considering. This didn't have to be done through mass e-mails, but could have been done through focus groups or small conference calls, and I would have gladly signed an NDA for this! It would not only have given us a great feeling of investment in the company, but could have potentially staved off some of the unforced errors we've seen and perhaps given Tesla some great ideas on how to please Sig (or all) owners without it costing them a dime. Tesla operates very much like a typical Silicon Valley technology company, which is probably 85% a great thing, especially compared to existing car companies and how they operate. That said, unlike many/most high tech companies, Tesla is doing heavy manufacturing of a very high cost consumer product, which is not at all typical in the Valley (or in high tech in general), and that presented unique challenges for Tesla. I think they've managed to overcome many of these challenges, but it was obvious, as it was happening, that Tesla was missing the boat on certain things with respect to customers, especially (but not exclusively) as it affected Sigs.

    A little more customer focus and a willingness to admit that they don't have all the answers within the company, but instead they could/should have sought our opinions before making decisions would have reaped tremendous rewards for them at little to no cost. For example, if now Tesla announces something cool for Sigs, I'm going to be jaded about it and assume that they are only giving it to us because of the griping that they've heard. That's terrible (for Tesla) if they don't get the full benefit of positive feelings if they do something cool for Sigs! It's the old saying that it takes a lifetime to build a reputation and only a few minutes to destroy one -- Tesla has breached a certain level of trust that I put in them, and unfortunately it would take a lot to gain that trust and confidence back once that trust is breached.

    I'm sure I'll be very excited to finally get the car, but I am almost shocked at my lack of excitement relative to where it was at this time last year (right around the Factory Tour event, which I attended). Doesn't mean I don't have ANY excitement, but it's definitely less than it was, and certainly than I was expecting so close to delivery.
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    STxTesla
    This has to be the value of the Signature Series....that label of being an early adopter and getting the car earlier. It sounds like Tesla understands that they built the aura of the Signature Series and the expectations associated with this special group of cars and car owners. It also sounds like there are indeed plans to make the early adoption of the Model S by those that went the extra mile by investing in the Sig series a rewarding experience. I don't feel that bad about this topic...(although I did get a bit heated mulling over the information for a while)...and feel confident that Tesla will come through for all of us.

    I am certain that the joy of owning the Model S is going to dampen the ill feelings once that day arrives. This is one fine automobile that will gain the title of being the best car in the World.....I have no doubt about that.

    So....the premium for being in the elite group of Sig series owners is high....but when all is said and done, I believe that we will all be happy to be part of this group.
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    brianman
    This is the kind of thing they should have done. Well put, Arnold. It costs them very little and is huge for both good will of customers and to get valuable customer data directly from customers.

    As an example, I mentioned months ago that if anybody from Tesla is reading the TMC forum they should have grasped quickly that they should have reached out to soflauthor and turned that into a wonderful opportunity. Yes, it was an Opportunity Console...and they passed it up.
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    ckessel
    I'll be of really mixed feelings if Tesla does something meaningful for Sigs since I was a Sig. I dropped because Tesla didn't seem to be doing anything for us (I emailed my rep too on it). I was also told that my old place in line, since I was an upgrade, could only be recovered if I dropped quickly. I dropped early January.

    So, it's a real bummer if Sigs don't get something beyond a couple months early access (at best). On the other hand, I'll be bummed if if Sigs get something really worthwhile because I dropped without being able to know what I could have been part of. Lose-lose. Or, I suppose if I'm Polyanna, I would see a win-win in there somehow.
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    strider
    Well, Arnold nailed it later in his post, and that is the fact that Tesla is a Silicon Valley company. They (or any other small/medium company out here) just don't DO focus groups. They take too long. Problems crop up, a few people gather in a hallway or maybe a conference room, solution is devised, everyone moves on. That's how my company works, I'm sure Tesla is the same way. When you launch a product and your customers freak out you make changes in the next version of product. Being insular is a fact of Silicon Valley life. A bunch of smart people get together who think they know how the world works and build a product to try and solve a problem they see out in the world. I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm just saying it's not surprising.
    �
  • Sep 22, 2012
    ModelS1079
    dsm363 - Pictures, pictures , please. And the story of the arrival of your S. The first drive, the first song. C'mon, don't hold back.
    �
  • Sep 23, 2012
    dsm363
    Will do. I'll post it over here
    Owners delivery stories, photos and first impressions

    They're asking if I could take delivery at a local big parking lot a few blocks from my house since the truck driver thinks he'll have an easier time.
    �
  • Sep 23, 2012
    Arnold Panz
    Yup, except Tesla isn't making software or a web portal or a gadget that costs a few hundred bucks like what most of the rest of the Valley is making where it's easy enough to make the fix in later versions, or just send out a patch to fix any perceived errors or shortcomings. The Groupthink that leads to ill-conceived decisions, without doing a reality check with real live customers on those decisions, is what has led to most of the problems Tesla has had with the rollout of the S, and with Sig owners in particular.
    �
  • Sep 23, 2012
    AnOutsider
    Off topic, abut that might mean its coming on a true truck and not a dinky uhaul thing. Times ticking!
    �
  • Sep 23, 2012
    dsm363
    Yeah, sounds like it's arriving on a regular, big truck and trailer.


    I'm hoping Tesla does something like 2 years service free or 4 years connectivity for Sig owners as a gesture for the large, interest free deposit some have had down for 40+ months. I'm not saying we're entitled to it or anything but would be a nice move on their part.
    �
  • Sep 23, 2012
    jerry33
    No problem for me then. Big trucks often deliver things that I've ordered.
    �
  • Sep 23, 2012
    Jaff
    This explains a lot...cars evoke strong emotions and obviously mean more to some than others...


    �
  • Sep 23, 2012
    joefee
    +1 Joefee S-1092
    �
  • Sep 23, 2012
    brianman
    I might disagree with you on this one.

    If 'SOC' is different in a style, labelling way, then I'm with you.
    If 'SOC' provides utility that 'OC' does not provide, I have a problem with that.

    Put another way, I don't want ill-will between Sig and Non-Sig owners with regard to utility aspects of the Opportunity Console.
    �
  • Sep 23, 2012
    jerry33
    I don't see any ill will resulting here. I'm perfectly fine that those who lent $40,000--or even $5,000 to Tesla for three years should get something for their money more than just red paint, a few weeks earlier delivery (maybe), and a couple of badges. (I'm assuming they will get their choice of SOC free or at a significantly reduced price).
    �
  • Sep 23, 2012
    Joel
    I should have clarified. A "Signature opportunity console" would be a free (or prepaid, really) opportunity console (same as everyone else). Not a different opportunity console. I attempted to demonstrate that 4 years of 3G service (estimated at $40 per month), the $2,400 Anywhere Service plan, an Opportunity console ($2,000 estimate), and a 3rd Key Fob would total the Signature premium we already paid.

    So, "Signature" should be a synonym for "prepaid" features/benefits (i.e., 3G service, opportunity console, anywhere service, etc.).

    - - - Updated - - -

    One final thought on this:

    I do agree with you. Tesla should not put a separate Opportunity Console for Signatures. However, if there was different "badging" for the opportunity console, would you (or anyone) even notice? The only exterior "badging" is the engraved "Signature" on the side of the car, which isn't that noticeable. From what I remember at the test drive, that area of the Model S didn't grab my attention. And the engraving does not contrast the material. I could be wrong. If some one has seen a "Signature" or "Founders" Model S recently and believe the "badging" caught your eye from a distance beyond 1 or 2 feet, please tell me.

    The only other "Signature" badging is on the speedometer, which is software. I object to Tesla referring to this software as "badging" because it would be a great software update if anyone (regardless of Signature) could name that aspect of your car. If you wanted it to read "Joel's Model S," why not give us the option to do so? After all, it's just software. Here's a quick analogy: I believe it is appropriate when Apple "engraves" the back of your iPod to consider that "badging," but when you name your iPod "xxxx's iPod" through the iTunes software, that does not constitute "badging."

    My point is: the "badging," unless someone tells me otherwise (or when I receive my Model S and believe this is not the case), is really not that noticeable or unique of a feature/benefit.
    �
  • Sep 23, 2012
    brianman
    @michiganmodels - Ah, ok. I think we agree on pretty much your entire post. :)
    �
  • Sep 23, 2012
    Joel
    We do :smile: My previous post(s) were unclear.
    �
  • Sep 24, 2012
    huntjo
    Well it sounds like the supercharger is free to any Tesla with an 85kwh battery. Which is GREAT! But I still want to know what makes me special as a Signature.
    �
  • Sep 25, 2012
    gg_got_a_tesla
    The Roadster Sig badge (seen here in one of the first 100 Roadsters, on display at one of the National Plugin Day events) is very cool! I hadn't seen that before. Once the dust settles in terms of production rampup, maybe, Tesla can put such a plaque together for each Model S Sig and install it after the fact during a service visit?

    roadster_sig_badge.jpg
    �
  • Sep 25, 2012
    v12 to 12v
    The only Signature I have seen had a script "Signature" badge on the rear of the car above the bumper (passenger side). Did that turn into vapor? :crying:
    �
  • Sep 25, 2012
    AnOutsider
    @gg: honestly, something that simple would make me extremely happy. It would personalize the car and add value to it (to me anyway). Unfortunately, I was told early on that it wouldn't happen.
    �
  • Sep 25, 2012
    Joel
    Yes. That is gone. That is gone and so is the "P85." If we can all agree that software is not "badging," the only "badging" is on the side of the car.

    I'm with AnOusider on this - @GG's picture is "Badging." That and the "Signature" previously displayed on the bumper @v12to12v referenced.

    I'm holding out hope that "Signature" = "Prepaid" options that are available to all....
    �
  • Sep 25, 2012
    FlasherZ
    Not completely. "Signature" is etched into the chrome on the rear, to the right of the Tesla logo in the same script as the side badges.
    �
  • Sep 26, 2012
    dsm363
    Yeah. It's on the back as well as the sides.
    �
  • Sep 26, 2012
    Joel
    I stand corrected :smile:
    �
  • Sep 27, 2012
    KBF
    Well, the silver lining to the slower ramp up is that the last "real" advantage of a Signature becomes more relevant. Assuming I get mine this year... ;)
    �
  • Sep 27, 2012
    weccman
    I think the definitive answer to the question posed by this thread is: It depends on a lot of things we can't predict today. For example, in my case, I'm hoping for a delivery date next month that will just about ensure that I get both the $7500 tax credit and a $2500 incentive from the State of California. Delivery next year could mean one or both of those have become unavailable to me. The California incentive, in particular, is time limited as it involves a sum of money being handed out first-come-first-served with no guarantee that more will be available. So I will not complain about paying more for my Signature Model S. I will just look forward to having it as soon as I possibly can.
    �
  • Sep 27, 2012
    AnOutsider
    A solid reason... But with the sig premium you're paying, isn't that like the people who drive 20 miles out the way to save 5� a gallon?
    �
  • Sep 28, 2012
    weccman
    Hard to say at this point. Certainly if I get the entire $10,000 and things change enough that I would not get it had I been something like P3500, it will have been a bargain to pay the extra ~$7000. And, I will have all the other benefits of being a sig customer, whatever those turn out to be. If only the $2500 California incentive would be at risk (probably the more likely case on a look back basis in a year or so), then you are right that on a purely dollar comparison basis, I'll be worse off. But there are intangibles as many have noted. I do want Tesla to succeed and don't mind to some degree making a contribution to that hoped-for outcome.
    �
  • Sep 28, 2012
    vfx
    If not already pointed out.

    Tesla will have a harder time selling Signature Model X's if the Model S sig owners don't get something worthwhile.
    �
  • Oct 6, 2012
    Adstein
    Unfortunately it seems like the major benefit of the sigs is to late comers who could jump the line by 6 months to a year. Those that had an early sig reservation will see minimal delivery advantage and as discussed the optioning differences are minimal. That certainly is not a great way to reward those who had $40k deposits for years. However as a sig reservation holder who dropped back to production in June after being told that there would be no additional perks or benefits to the sig I would be upset if something extra was offered now.
    When I reserved a model X i chose GP as I have no expectation of added value for the sig since I reserved relatively early.
    �
  • Oct 6, 2012
    ddenboer
    I sent a message to GeorgeB and the Tesla ownership email when this thread first appeared, and no response. I was hoping that it would at least garner a "got it, stay tuned", but nothing.
    �
  • Oct 7, 2012
    v12 to 12v
    It sounds like the guy is getting hundreds of e-mails. He has a lot on his plate and has to do rapid fire prioritizing. His #1 priority now is getting the cars out to us.
    �
  • Oct 7, 2012
    Arnold Panz
    This issue was really well-covered when they first announced Sig pricing and "options". Tesla is quite adamant that early delivery, Sig red, white leather, Sig badging/etching, and I guess 3G connectivity are more than sufficient to justify the extra cost of a Sig and extra deposit. No matter how much reasonable people might disagree, this is one area where Tesla seems to have considered the criticisms and decided they were comfortable with their decision.

    In the end, from a financial perspective they were right because they sold out the Sigs. We'll see what happens with the X, but based on the S experience it makes very little sense to reserve a Sig X until they get very close to production and/or selling out the Sigs, or you've got lots of money to burn, or want to make a contribution to Tesla.
    �
  • Oct 7, 2012
    VolkerP
    The ramp up of Model X production will be much faster than Model S production. Tesla will have a well tested production line, a well trained staff, and streamlined supply chain by end of 2013. The first 1200 Model X signatures could be produced within 4 weeks. Tesla will have to throw in something else, since early delivery of Signature Model X effects to 2 weeks earlier (in average) - that won't pull in 1000 reservations. But perhaps Tesla is the halo car maker of 21st century then, and they will sell anything they can offer at any price (doesn't that sound familiar :biggrin:)
    �
  • Oct 7, 2012
    gg_got_a_tesla
    It makes sense for prospective Model X Sig reservation holders to wait till the options and pricing are announced (will probably be mid-2013). Why lock up all that money now? Maybe best to get a P reservation now and upgrade if there's any perceived value.

    Model S Sigs sold out back in Feb (?) a couple of months after the options and pricing were announced.
    �
  • Oct 8, 2012
    Brian H
    The more subtle and hard to spot badging and Sig signatures are, the more exclusive and valuable they become. :cool: :smile:
    �
  • Oct 9, 2012
    v12 to 12v
    I don't believe that there is a difference between the Sigs and and P's that is significant enough set them apart and make them more valuable at resale.
    If the Sigs got upgraded with the Performance Plus modifications and other improvements "on the house", then I would believe it would impact resale.
    �
  • Oct 10, 2012
    Brian H
    No, no, not subtle enough! Too showy and obvious. Preferably, it would be something only an insider would know how to spot.
    :tongue:
    �
  • Oct 15, 2012
    FlasherZ
    Yes, I admit that the "sig premium" is well worth it for me - my original P# was 8xxx and I'm rather excited to get mine earlier. As a result, I don't think I have anything to complain about, although I'm getting itchy... a few weeks ago, I was fine with waiting because I had a lot of infrastructure things to get done -- electrical work, etc. Now I'm just anxiously twiddling my thumbs, trying to plan the delivery to dodge a few business trips and a baby boy due in late November. Come to think of it, having the model S in my hands to do the frantic hospital rush seems rather exciting when I think about it (the baby boy's delivery will take place 50 miles away in St. Louis).

    I was hoping for today, on my birthday, but it didn't seem to be in the cards unless a trailer shows up today without notice...
    �
  • Oct 15, 2012
    Arnold Panz
    You're right that it's obviously that the end of the Sig line would overlap (for deliveries) with regular production (Rs and Ps), but as noted, the late Sigs generally got to cut the line by a some decent amount. My personal issue is that I was P96, and so gave myself apparently no advantage whatsoever in bumping up my reservation (actually, I reduced my choices in terms of options I didn't need and exterior colors to choose from). I completely agree that it would totally ridiculous for Tesla to shut down deliveries just to make sure all Sigs got theirs first, but given some of the batching issues, we have Sig Specials who still haven't gotten their cars, and with this quality control issue, it's very likely that there may be some general production deliveries before Sig Specials get theirs.

    Again, all of this would be a lot less noxious if Sigs hadn't put down an extra $35k for the privilege and are paying at least an extra $7500 for the car.

    I sure hope you are right, but as a Sig reservation holder I've seen absolutely no evidence that this is the case. In fact, I would say every piece of evidence is to the contrary. Free connectivity for a year is the only bone they've thrown us, and without sounding ungrateful, that's not exactly making up the difference. Given Tesla's repeated inability to meet deadlines (my original MVPA said September and now I'm really half-expecting I won't get the car until after Thanksgiving), I'll be very happy to just get my car and I'm really not expecting much else from them.

    It's sad it has gotten to this point for me, but Tesla chose this path when they chose to charge a premium for the Signatures. My frustration is a direct result of that, and nothing else. Even if I were paying exactly the same as a non-Sig I'd be 95% less annoyed by this whole situation. This is why I never got worked up about the $600/year for service -- I already got taken to the cleaners for $7500 by Tesla, so what's another ~$2000?!
    �
  • Oct 15, 2012
    AnOutsider
    That alone is sad, and Tesla should take note.
    �
  • Oct 15, 2012
    radinator
    Where did you hear that? Just curious, as I was hoping to do a factory tour. If not, I have to start thinking of where I would like it delivered.
    �
  • Oct 15, 2012
    gg_got_a_tesla
    Then, I'll have a bone to pick with GeorgeB!

    Its time to build your Model S | Blog | Tesla Motors

    No mention of Sigs alone here (of course, this was written way back in March):

    �
    • Người đăng: vào lúc

    Không có nhận xét nào:

    Đăng nhận xét

    Đăng ký: Đăng Nhận xét (Atom)