Dec 10, 2011
EVNow Let me put the Leaf situation in context.
Leaf has only a 3.3kW charger - so while L2 charging is much better than L1 - for "long" trips to be feasible we need a QC network. Afterall we were promised one and most of us bought the QC option. There is even a $200M govt grant to build the network. But, for various reasons the QC network is still to get off the ground.
A 20kW or so AC charging, if Leaf were to be able to take advantage of it, would be great too. Ofcourse, we prefer 50kW of QC, which is already present in Leaf.�
Dec 10, 2011
Norbert This doesn't have anything to do with the discussion which took place. Widodh was writing about using 3x32A (=22kW) instead of DC charging, and presenting that as a good thing. I wasn't discussing Renault's (future) plans or anything having to do with 44 kW or the ZOE, or Better Place.
No twisting.
I do think that 90 kW charging is *much* more useful than 50kW for highway travel, but that's not what was discussed there.
Not in that form, but it's been repeatedly said and suggested that with 3-phase you don't need higher-speed fast-charging. You are getting a bit close to saying that yourself, above, by saying "44kW is adequate for highway use" without further qualification around that sentence (but then you add the "for long distance use" thing later on, so that's already different) . Most Leaf owners say that 50 kW does allow them to make longer trips, and they appreciate it very much, but it's more a compromise to allow for the possibility, more that than an good solution. You can't conveniently go too far that way, unless you have lots of time.
There are lots of 3-phase statements and even whole threads about 3-phase that don't receive any response from me. The statements that do are those that push Level 2 charging at the expense of DC fast charging. The discussion Level 2 vs DC fast charging is a global discussion. There is a number of people also in the US who think fast charging isn't important, and think that it's all about having Level 2 chargers at any place you could possibly spend more than 15 minutes. I've been discussing their statements as well, if not even more so. Actually, even more so. There is certainly a market and usefulness for EVs which have nothing else than a 6.6 kW charger, but this I don't see as advancing the EV future even nearly as much as EVs with 90 kW charging.
I did (well not a pill). The message I wrote was specifically and explicitly regarding his use of the word "instead". Here is another quote from Widodh:
The parts that I am disagreeing with is "DC charging won't be needed". And "Both cars will not support DC charging, but instead they will use 'medium' power AC charging" followed by "this is a move I like".
I don't want to mention similar statements from others at this point. The discussion about the importance of different charging speeds is a global discussion, we have the options of 3.3 kW charging, close to 20 kW (not far from 22 kW), and 50 kW (not far from 44 kW) here in the US as well, and the traffic situation in the more populated parts of CA isn't that different from Europe, which I know from experience since I lived and travelled in Europe, and also visit Europe.
In fact I travelled more than 700 km in Europe, by car, just a few months ago. I would have liked that to be with an electric car.�
Dec 10, 2011
Norbert Exactly. That's all. :smile:
Maybe some don't understand that they are actually saying something else than that.�
Dec 10, 2011
dpeilow Which is totally selective quoting. Wido said he likes Renault including higher power chargers than the puny 3kW they have today.
We are all saying that we want at least 22kW three phase charging in conjunction with the ~100kW DC.
You are saying you want 20kW 240V in conjunction with the DC charging option.
We seem to be in agreement. Including Wido so please stop quoting him out of context.�
Dec 10, 2011
Norbert Good, it seems to me that you may have changed your position a bit, or the way you express it.
Neither did I say that I do NOT want 3-phase. And I don't think that you don't want fast charging. However you did say that DC fast charging isn't needed, and presented using 22 kW 3-phase *instead* of DC fast charging as a good thing. (See my message to dpeilow above). That's conveying a sense of non-importance which I disagree with. I think 22 kW (or even 44 kW) 3-phase is far less important than 90 kW charging, even though in specific cases that may be different (perhaps yours, people who travel frequently to meetings which require more than 160-300 mile round trip but not much more).�
Dec 10, 2011
Norbert In my original message I quoted his whole message. This later shorter quote was done for emphasis. Whatever he may have really meant, the last "move" he mentioned before saying that he likes it, was to mention that it uses 22 KW 3-phase "instead" of DC. You are implying that he meant "at least", but he didn't write that. I consider 50 kW (or maybe 44 kW) the minimum a car should support at least as an option. Anything else may be less painful, but not like-able. Of course for some people even 110 V charging is fine, and I don't mind if there are cars for these people, but I don't see that as a good thing on the larger scale of things.
There is a difference between what we want (everything) and what we consider most important.
I personally do not want 20 kW 240V, I'm not going to order the second 10 KW charger option. 10 kW is enough for me personally. I also don't think the 20 kW option is very important in general, even if for a few people.
There is something we agree on, but also something we disagree on. Cars with 22 kW charging max, and no option for more, are not a move that I welcome, not even as being better than 3 kW. Especially since Renault has the same CEO as Nissan. Even if there may be a good number of people who find that enough for their personal situation, and who will buy the car. Although in a sense I'm happy about any additional electric car that makes it into the market and survives. I just don't see that as something that brings us forward enough.�
Dec 10, 2011
Norbert This is a financial argument, not a technical difficulty. In the US this is addressed with so-called "demand charges" which depend on the max power supported, even if not used all the time. Although they seem bit high to me.
�
Dec 10, 2011
widodh I think it is the last
Could be that because English is not my native language some things don't come through the way I want them to.
What I wanted to say is that a lot of journeys I take could be done without DC charging, one those journeys just 22kW AC charging would be sufficient. I personally don't think that I'll be using the fast charging that much, since 11kW or 22kW charging would be sufficient for 90% of the driving I do. I however do not want a car that can NOT use the 50 ~ 100kW charging, since it will prove itself useful during various trips.
I went to Paris (well, a bit south of..) last weekend, a trip of 400km from my house. I stayed there in a hotel and on the parking lot of the hotel I saw multiple 3-phase 32A outlets. I could have charged my Model S there over night. The next day I played a tournament and drove back home again. 800km round-trip in less then 24 hours which COULD be done without DC fast charging.
I just want the 20kW AC charging the "US" version of the Model S is getting, but with 3-phase support instead of 1-phase
About Renault, I was just happy to see a EV with 22kW AC charging from 3-phases, that's all.�
Dec 10, 2011
Norbert I think my point here needs to be made more clearly: based on my somewhat limited information (seemed to be difficult to obtain), my current understanding is that the peak demand of a fast charger is in the same order of magnitude as a fast food restaurant.
The fact that it doesn't use that power all the time (depending on much it is used, though), for (possibly) the same peak demand, shouldn't increase the total cost (for the utility), it lowers it, even if some part of the cost is caused by the peak demand.�
Dec 10, 2011
Norbert With journeys, do you mean trips beyond the range of the battery?
And when you say 90% of your driving, is that 90% of all driving, or of journeys? The general assumption seems to be that people will be able to do more than 90% just with home charging, on average (without considering longer range batteries such as Tesla's).�
Dec 11, 2011
widodh Yes, I mean trips beyond the range of the battery. Most of the time there is enough idle-time for my car, so I could use that to charge.
With the 90% I mean all my driving could be done without DC charging, but you are probably right, it could be closer to 98%. I live in a 'remote' area in the Netherlands, so all my trips involve at least a 300km round-trip.
However, I do think that when DC charging (50 ~ 100kW) does become available I'll be using it to make even longer trips.
For the last year, when I go on a tournament in Europe (12 weekends a year) I always look for charging possibilities, just to prove to myself that all those trips are doable with a Model S.�
Dec 11, 2011
Norbert Why not 100%? I mean, it just requires chargers at a distance shorter than the battery range.�
Dec 11, 2011
widodh Since I don't want to wait for my car to charge. If I want to drive to a destination about 500 ~ 600km from my home without a overnight charge I'll need fast DC-charging.�
Dec 11, 2011
eledille You are correct that the cost would be the same, it's the income that would be lower, since it doesn't consume power more or less continuously like the fast-food restaurant does. Equal cost and less income is exactly the symptoms of low utilization.
There is no question at all that the high and variable demand from charge points is very undesirable from the utilities' point of view. This is discussed in several presentations posted in this forum earlier and in the interim report of the German infrastructure workgroup.�
Dec 11, 2011
Norbert No, the total cost should be lower, since only one part depends on peak demand, while the other part depends on actual consumption. The utilization should be higher as the fast-charger gets used by more cars, of course.
First, I agree that eventually a smart-grid will be a good thing, as it should be a good thing anyway, for example also with things like air conditioning (here in the US a big problem for utilities).
But why undesirable? Can't they have a price structure that addresses this situation, and allows them to make lots of money? Perhaps less convenient for the utility than cars smoothly charging over many hours, but this is not for the utility to decide. Almost everyone (in the mainstream) says that next to battery cost and range, the ability to recharge quickly is the biggest factor for EV adoption.
Specifically in the beginning, there won't be that many fast chargers, perhaps a few (less than 10, if even that) for a mid-sized town. Compare that to a situation where you have lots of 22 kW chargers, "at each corner", and when there is an event, *all* of them will be used. Since for the 22 kW concept to work, they need to be in lots of places where their average utilization is far lower than that of fast-charger (which concentrates demand to a single point), you should easily have a situation where their peak demand is orders of magnitude above that of all fast-chargers being used at the same time.
The upside of electric cars is that they can charge overnight, and balance the total consumption over the 24-hour cycle. And that will be most of the charging, perhaps 95%.
A fast-food restaurant, and consumption in general, poses a similar kind of problem in that it doesn't use electricity over night (or not as much, or at least a regular restaurant doesn't). Electric cars can alleviate that by charging overnight.
There should already be a lot of industries that are using electricity in a fluctuating way (or just turn on and off for business hours). Just this little electric garage heater for $235 consumes 5 kW:
NewAir G73 Electric Garage Heater
Or just think of
- electric trains
- electric buses
- trams
- subways
All of these, and there are lots in each city, not only stop at each station, but then also stop for a while at the end of their route. And have an irregular demand when they get re-arranged in their storage or parking facilities.
- Airport utility vehicles that operate only when a flight arrives
- Elevators that operate only when there is guest
- Flood lighting for football stadiums. Ice skating stadiums. Concert halls.
- Air Conditioning for large buildings and meeting/exhibition centers
- peak demand from restaurants, microwaves, etc at lunch and dinner time in business districts
Someone make a list of all these things.
My main point is, utilities should see themselves as a service in this regard, and not try to mastermind the future of the electric car. They should offer solutions for what the customer wants, not problems or directions, and not act as if each little fast charger will blow up the city's circuits.�
Dec 11, 2011
Norbert Ok, so non-DC public charging is *only* for the situations where you can charge at the place where you stay. But I'm not getting the picture yet.
My current understanding is that hotels are able to install overnight charging for the Roadster, at least in Germany, which should also be sufficient for the Model S, for overnight charging (I get that from the map, and related announcements, which were posted recently). And you mentioned that at least some of your journeys involve staying at hotels.
And it sounds almost as if 90% of your driving is journeys where you need some kind of public (or hotel) charging. Which would mean almost none around home, close to 0% with home charging only?�
Dec 12, 2011
widodh No, on a single-phase you won't get a overnight charger with the Model S, not even with the Roadster.
On most locations 16A is the limit per phase. 32A is possible, but the investment is much higher. The density of 3x16A outlets (11kW) is much higher then 3x32A (22kW), although the last ones can be found (like I did last weekend).
A 'overnight charge' for me is <10 hours. Neither 1x16A of 1x32A at 230V charges at 85kWh pack in less then 10 hours. So you'll need 3-phase power to do so.
Oh no, you mis understood me there.
With the 90% I mean whenever I go on a trip where charging is needed to do the round-trip AC charging (3-phase!) will be enough to make the round-trip. Ofcourse, DC could also do the job, but it isn't mandatory. On most places I'll be idle for a couple of hours, enough time for the AC to charge. I don't want to wait 45 minutes at a quickcharger when I don't have to.
Still, the density of 3-phase outlets will always be higher then the availability of DC chargers.
All I'm saying, I want 10/20kW AC charging in the Model S, nothing more, nothing less.�
Dec 12, 2011
EV_de +100
" Tertium non datur" ....�
Dec 12, 2011
Norbert HPC chargers at hotels and otherwise available for travelling, in Germany and UK are 60A - 70A, see this thread:
Supercharger plans for Germany
Especially this page:
Supercharger plans for Germany
That's more than enough for <10 hours charging for even the 300 mile pack. Not sure though in how many places this will be available, though. The map shows a few for the german area, but surely more than those are possible. Maybe a rather common possibility for hotels?
Looking back at your previous messages, is this then mainly 12 times a year? (+ additional journeys, of course)�
Dec 12, 2011
dpeilow The UK grid is different and it is easier to install a high single phase load without paperwork. It is still a major PITA to find that much free on a hotel fuseboard. Electricians still suck air through their teeth and talk about imbalance.
In Germany it requires lots of exemptions from utilities etc. In Italy we have seen they had to install three HPCs to be allowed to do it.
On the other hand no one thinks twice about installing a 32A three phase outlet in these places. It is easier from a practical and no paperwork point of view.�
Dec 13, 2011
VolkerP @Norbert,
If I count it this way, the 3 phase is a no-brainer:
HPC = imbalanced load, �2000 materials cost, max 16kW. Approx. number in Germany, Switzerland, or UK: dozens.
32A CEE = (possibly) balanced load, �40 materials cost, max 22kW. Approx number in the thousands in most European countries.�
Dec 13, 2011
widodh Like dpeilow said, finding 60A free on a circuit board is not that easy. And you'll inbalance the phases, so it's a pita to get a HPC installed.
Those are my trips to France or Germany.
I go to Amsterdam quite often, it's a ~200 km trip. Our highway speeds are 130km/h (80 mph), so I won't make the round-trip on a single charge.
I'll have to charge at my destination, 11kW or 22kW charging would be enough to let me make the round-trip in all comfort (HVAC & radio) I want. I don't want to arrive home with a nearly depleted battery, I wan't to have a bit spare.
Here again, a 400km round-trip which can be done without DC charging where just AC medium power would work.
It is plain simple, in Europe 10 ~ 20kW AC charging can only be done with 3-phase power and those outlets are widely available (Tens/Hundred of thousands) throughout Europe.�
Dec 13, 2011
Norbert So what happens when you want 2, 3 or 10 of them?�
Dec 13, 2011
eledille Norbert, I really can't understand why you keep doubting the need for 3-phase. It's the cornerstone of the European EV effort. What Tesla, Nissan or anybody else thinks doesn't matter, European engineers and politicians are not going to listen to foreigners telling them how to use their power grid. An EV in Europe that does not support 3-phase will be as out of place as a penguin in the Sahara desert.
Please read this, I have devoted more than an hour to explain this as carefully as I can. If there's something in here that you don't understand, you're welcome to send me a PM.
In Europe, power is distributed in the form of 3-phase AC at 400 V. Phase-to-phase voltage is 400, phase-to-neutral voltage is consequently 230. You get single phase by wiring between one of the phases and neutral. Each phase necessarily has its own main fuse. The available single phase power is thus split between three equal-sized main fuses, each of 1/3 the rating it would have had if there was a single phase supply instead. A high amperage circuit is therefore three times harder to get hold of than in a single phase distribution system.
16 A, 400 V, 3~ equals 46 A, 240 V.
32 A, 400 V, 3~ equals 92 A, 240 V.
63 A, 400 V, 3~ equals 182 A, 240 V.
Keeping the amps down is a major virtue of the three phase system, losses and wire size are proportional to current. Higher voltage also proportionally reduces current for the same power. That's why a 20 meter 16 A 3-phase extension cable costs about a hundred dollars and can be stowed under a seat. The voltage drop at full load is 4.8 V, which is perfectly acceptable.
A 70 A single phase connection for an HPC requires an 80 A service drop, this is the closest higher standard fuse size. If this service drop is not dedicated to the HPC charger, you would have to double that size to be reasonably certain of finding sufficient free space.
Thus we in practice end up with needing at least a 160 A, 400 V service. This equals a 460 A 240 V service. Now, which are easier to find, 100 and 200 A service drops, or 500 A?
Does your house have a 500 A service drop?
How would you feel if you were to try to talk your boss into paying for something like this to be able to charge efficiently at work? What if the electrician went to your boss and said "Are you really sure you want to do this? It's doable, but really awkward, and I'll have to talk to the utility first. Can't you just use an ordinary 3-phase connection"?
Would you feel more confident asking for a stock standard 11 or 22 kW outlet that costs less than a thousand dollars?
What happens when a collegue wants to charge his new Renault and discovers that you are hogging all the free three phase capacity and only actually use one third of it?
You have to understand that 3-phase is the norm here. Single phase is never used above 16 A except for electric stoves. Even these are usually 3-phase. Single phase above 25 A is never used, except when people are going out of their way to help the owner of a very strange and foreign all-carbon sports car.
Norway is a little different from the rest of Europe, since we also have 230 V 3-phase, but 230 and 400 V 3-phase systems have the same pros and cons compared to single phase.
If you use the 3-phase power directly, you have no problems. The load will be distributed equally between the main fuses, and you get in total three times more power per ampere.
Some sites will have a huge amount of power available. Then you can get a 32 A or maybe even a 63 A single phase connection. But that would always be done by connecting only one of the three phases. There will always be three times more power available than you can actually use in this way. Do you really think that is an adequate solution?
3-phase is much, much better suited to charging EVs than single phase. I won't rehash all the reasons now, but the net result is that you get twice the power for the same weight and cost.
In addition to all of the above, the whole 3-phase charger has already been integrated into the PEM by a major manufacturer, allowing reuse of the regeneration circuitry and its cooling system for charging from the 3-phase grid.
It's quite simply completely idiotic not to take advantage of 3-phase power where it is available.
Not supporting it at all in Europe, a market which without 3-phase would be limited to 3.7 kW, and whose own auto industry is supporting it, is suicidal.�
Dec 13, 2011
widodh True. I just got my new house (busy with decorating) and I've got electrical cooking. This draws 2x16A split over two phases. Yes, this could have been 1x32A, but it draws its power from 2x16A. I could also have taken a bigger one, would have drawn 3x16A
A few pictures of the circuit board of my house (work in progress!) to show you how this works:
- One picture shows you my three main fuses of 40A coming into my house with the kWh counter after it
- Another shows you the circuit board closed
- And the other shows you the circuit board opened up
The cable coming into my house is dimensioned for 3x40A maximum, that is all I can get.
3x40A should be sufficient for all the power I need and charging a Model S with 3x16A when I'm cooking and with 3x32A when my power usage is low.�
Dec 13, 2011
EV_de ... I Still don't understand this discussion ....
with 3 phase charging i do not need any charging station AC/DC "midPower" , "HighPower" , "Superpower" or what ever !
I do not want to change my dependence from oil companys to a dependence of a charging station company ....
With 3 phase I can charge allmost everywhere in germany , at Home , Office , our Customers , Farms , Campgrounds a.s.o. .... without a (hugh) external charging device ...�
Dec 13, 2011
Norbert Another voice saying 3-phase (more or less) replaces the need for DC fast-charging. This is what I disagree with.
However I do not have a fixed opinion about whether 3-phase is needed or not, although I have some interest to find out, and ask questions about it.
There aren't any signs that Tesla already agrees with you, so if I were in your position, I'd hope that a discussion would help your case. From my point of view, that is what you need to understand my part of the discussion.�
Dec 13, 2011
doug Once again this not the "let's repeatedly explain how some things are different outside the US to Norbert" forum. If you don't understand by now why Europeans want/need 3-phase, then you probably won't. If you disagree, then fine and leave it at that. Forcing a circular discussion is tantamount to trolling and is getting tiresome.�
Dec 13, 2011
widodh You can interpret this multiple ways.
Imho he is just saying that 20kW AC power would be sufficient for his driving. It is even more power then the current HPC deliver (thus more KM's per hour of charge).
I'm not saying that I don't want DC charging, but I think I'll rarely use it when I'm able to charge at 10kW or 20kW since this is so widely available.
One thing I thought of, a true 3-phase charger is not possible in the Model S I guess. I think the Model S should be able to charge at 16A (maybe 32A...?) single-phase (230V), this way you can charge at every normal outlet. When you go three-phase you can charge with up to 32A giving you ~20kW of power.�
Dec 13, 2011
Norbert I think the important point for me is that Tesla's 90 kW superchargers do use 3-phase. Otherwise I'll probably wait for for Tesla's "formal response" before discussing this further. That response might make a lot of points moot, depending on what Tesla's actual plans are for Europe (which haven't been announced yet).�
Dec 13, 2011
widodh In the US you also have to draw your power from 3-phases, since 90kW single-phase is not going to work anywhere in this world.
Don't underestimate how much power 90kW is!
The problem I have with saying that DC-charging is the alternative for 3-phase charging. Imho it is not, since it is not mobile, so I'm depended on this external device somewhere to charge my Model S, since single-phase is not going to do the job in Europe.�
Dec 13, 2011
dpeilow This is the point in a nutshell.�
Dec 13, 2011
Norbert I perfectly understand the "want" part, I'm just not sure about the extent of the "need" part vs other possible things like external 11kW 3-phase chargers. "Want" and "need" are very different. That is an honest discussion on my part, and I have seen new points and received more information than I had before, so for me this isn't "circular".
To bring the discussion to this extent was meaningful only in so far as there are claims, based on personal conversations posted here, that Tesla (who is already present in Europe) does not plan to support 3-phase.
Obviously this would imply that Tesla would also disagree with the "need" part. So this isn't a closed case, but even before reading you message, as I wrote above, I've decided to wait for Tesla's formal response, leaving this discussion for the time being by pointing out what is important for me:
a) the Superchargers do use 3-phase.
b) there are repeated statements by multiple persons (if not the majority of those who argue vehemently for 3-phase) that with 3-phase, 90 kW DC fast charging isn't important, and this point of view is a major mistake from my point of view.�
Dec 13, 2011
dpeilow Nobody is disagreeing with your point b.�
Dec 13, 2011
eledille I suppose I am one of those... This is what I have been arguing for years now:
Single phase up to 16 A is important because that's what we will have to use when nothing better is available.
For the reasons given in my previous post, home charging, opportunity charging and destination charging in Europe will be done with 3-phase power.
CHAdeMO at 50 kW will not be able to compete in Europe because 63 A, 400 V charge points are almost as powerful but much less expensive. The availability of 63 A, 400 V charge points will therefore quickly exceed that of CHAdeMO - as long as 63 A, 400 VAC chargers are sufficiently inexpensive. They are, and within a few years, the 3-phase charger will be integrated into the PEM, further reducing the cost dramatically.
100 kW quick chargers is a different matter, they offer much more power than a 63 A outlet can provide. The cost will naturally be higher, and so will the price you pay. Nobody will want to travel to one, pay a premium and wait while charging when they can charge for less while going about their business. But when you need to extend the range and are already on your way towards the next charger along the highway, nothing can beat high power DC. The German infrastructure plan recognizes this, but notes that at the time of writing, no standard had emerged.
I've never argued against support for any DC charger type, or at least, that has not been my intention. As long as they implement the same communication protocol, any DC charger should be trivially simple to support via adapters. What I dislike is public money being wasted on the dead end called CHAdeMO (again, in Europe). Experimentation and test projects is ok to a certain extent. Attempting to build something real based on it is not ok.
And 3-phase support is much more important than DC in Europe. We can build a practical, working EV infrastructure without DC, but not the other way around. That does not mean that we should not have both.�
Dec 13, 2011
widodh Let me reverse the questions.
How would you feel if Tesla would limit the on-board AC charger to 3.6kW ([email�protected]) and your only other option is to use Tesla's supercharger.
Without a 'supercharger' you'd be waiting over 24 hours to get your Model S charged.�
Dec 14, 2011
Norbert While I appreciate your willingness to discuss this further with me, it follows from the above messages that I won't, at least until Tesla's formal response is in, if not until Doug changes his mind.�
Dec 14, 2011
widodh Great�
Dec 14, 2011
Norbert I doubt this discussion would be postponed until March with or without me... although that would be fine with me. I'd guess it will re-ignite at the latest in Jan/Feb 2012 when Tesla makes its official SuperCharger announcement.�
Dec 15, 2011
Eberhard i think its a good idea to compare the situations in Europe and America. It looks like, that the NEMA-50 is quite popular in America like the CEE 3x16A is in Europe. I think you wont be happy to have a charger which supports 3x16A but could not do higher currents? or can do 3x32A but not even 1x40A?�
Dec 15, 2011
widodh If Tesla would support 3-phase AC charging through onboard chargers it will be market specific.
So the US Model S will ship with a 1-phase 20kW charger, where the European model will ship with a 3-phase 22kW charger (limited to 32A on 1-phase).
You probably shouldn't expect the best of both worlds, high power 1-phase and 3-phase. I also don't see that being useful anywhere in the world.�
Dec 15, 2011
Kevin Sharpe if they are smart they'll support 70A 1 Phase on European models so that visitors to existing HPC sites can 'fast' charge... this would also allow a 'UK' car to travel into 'mainland' Europe.�
Dec 15, 2011
Eberhard Model S will come with the option of a second 10kW charger, why not a third 10kW charger? It does not matter for those charger to be connected to single phase (U.S.) or to different phases (Europe). Its Tesla who does not wants this, because they fall in love with their silly proprietary non standard plug. This is the only reason for the incompatibility to 3-phase. Why not add a hidden second socket like the Mennekes Type 2? I was talking to JB Strauble twice but with no positive results.�
Dec 15, 2011
eledille Kevin, I think they should let the customers choose which charger/chargers they need. That 70 A 1-phase charger is expensive...
I want a 32 or preferably 63 A charger that supports both 400 and 230 V 3-phase. I'll never encounter more than 32 A 1-phase anyway.
If support for 230 V 3-phase is impossible then up to 32 A 1-phase would be useful in Norway, to get 7 of the 13 kW in the 230 V 32 A 3-phase sockets. If 230 V 3-phase is supported I only need 16 A single phase.
widodh: Can a 32 A 3-phase charger handle 32 A single phase? Insufficient smoothing capacity?�
Dec 15, 2011
Kevin Sharpe I agree that the customer should choose... Tesla already have the 80A option when supporting 2 x 10kW onboard chargers in the "US" configuration... I'm simply suggesting that they continue this option in the European cars so that they can be used in the UK and at selected HPC sites in Mainland Europe.
3 Phase is rare at the consumer level in the UK. Therefore a 80A option on UK cars will make the most of everyday HPC 'fast' charge. However, I would also want 3 Phase option on UK cars so that I can take the car into mainland Europe.
Bottom line, fit the cars with "mennekes" (or equivalent) connector and support both 1 Phase and 3 Phase and we will all be happy.�
Dec 15, 2011
Kevin Sharpe In the UK 3 Phase is not readily available at homes and small business and therefore most people would not benefit from 30kW AC.�
Dec 15, 2011
eledille Right. And Norway wants 230/400 V 3-phase. And Carthage must be destroyed.
�
Dec 15, 2011
dpeilow We've all been around this one before. In the vast majority of cases three phase is on the pole outside (or in the duct), so it is very simple to get. If you ask for Economy7 heating you will get it, for example.
If you have to upgrade the supply anyway then getting 3 phase is a very similar cost if it is just a drop from the pole.
Someone else did this helpful picture...
Installing HPCs at half the hotels on the UK network was a PITA because of this and several sites had to be ruled out, when if the HPC was three phase it would have been dead simple to install. The Moat House would have been installed a year ago had the car been able to charge with three phase.
Previous suggestions of have 3 chargers than can run in three phase or parallel for single phase seems to be the better solution to me.�
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Dec 15, 2011
eledille Three single phase chargers make an extremely expensive 3-phase charger. But depending on other factors (available space, time etc) this might be the best solution initially.�
Dec 15, 2011
VolkerP Tesla stated that Model S cannot accommodate a 3rd 10kW on board charging unit. They're out of space and cannot deal with the additional heat.
They'll have to drop the "many little units will drop price" and "our plug rules" mantras here, and make or buy a 3phase 11-22kW on board charger connected to a Mennekes charge port. Obviously, engineering is very hesitant about even thinking about it.
If Tesla gives me a rebate on my Model S without any on board charger, I'd give it a try and retrofit such a charger & port myself.
Mennekes IEC 62196-2 L2 port Type 2 and BRUSA NLG6 22kW charger that is...�
Dec 15, 2011
doug Probably. But given how it's been said Tesla is doing their 90kW "Supercharger" (i.e. with nine 10kW single phase chargers connected to a 3-phase supply), they may benefit from some economies of scale.�
Dec 15, 2011
stopcrazypp The "solution" that would require the least amount of engineering is to just have three single phase chargers. The unfortunate issue is you can't fit all three 10kW ones in there.
I don't know. I guess Tesla can go third party if the demand isn't enough for them to build their own. We won't really know how Tesla wants to handle things until closer to the launch.�
Dec 15, 2011
dpeilow If the three chargers are running at 20kW then heat isn't and issue.
As for space, we constantly hear about how much space this car has. Look how deep the trunk is.�
Dec 15, 2011
Eberhard The Model S comes with one 10kW charger = 240V/40A and the option of a second 10kW charger = 2x 240V/40A or 1x 240V/80A with 3rd 10kW charger = 3x 240V/40A or 1x 240V/120A. The 90kW DC Quickcharger comes with 9x 10kW charger = 3x 277V/120A connected to the U.S. 3-phase grid.
3- phase charger are not extremely expensive, they cost the same like single-phase its just the configuration, who they got to work. Specialized 3-phase are even cheaper and even more efficient. But 3x single phase charger do the job as well.
At least i hope, that the second optional charger of the Model S can be connected on two different phases. this would allow me to charge the Model S with 2x 16A from the 3-phase grid instead of carry around the 2nd charger as an useless ballast.�
Dec 16, 2011
widodh Keep in mind that you also want to charge at 1-phase with low ampere like 16A.
As far as I know, a 3-phase charger ALWAYS needs 3-phase input to operate. If you take 3 chargers which are all connected to a single phase you can do 3-phase charging, but you can also fall back on single-phase charging whenever you are charging on a simple outlet.
If they do something really cool they could make a mechanism that can switch all 3 chargers to a single phase so you can do fast charging on 1-phase AND 3-phases.�
Dec 16, 2011
VolkerP Wido,
advanced 3ph chargers like the BRUSA NLG6 can take 1ph or 3ph as input, though the 1ph input would be only 1/3 of the full power.�
Dec 16, 2011
widodh Ok, that solves it
I still think the NLG6 is a good potential candidate for the Model S, but that is up to Tesla.�
Dec 16, 2011
Eberhard I already have contact with BRUSA and ask them to modify the NLG6 to talk direct with the Mennekes Type 2 socket. Connected to Teslas CAN-Bus and the EES it could act as an additional charger. We were also talking about a 3x16A solution with will be air-cooled, while the NLG6 is liquid-cooled. (fine for Model S but not for the Roadster)�
Dec 16, 2011
Kevin Sharpe I don't doubt that 3 Phase is available on the pole BUT it's not exposed in the UK at the end user level. Obviously, everyone can request an upgrade but I'm interested in deploying mass infrastructure at low cost today, and in the UK that's 1 Phase, and mainland Europe 3 Phase.
We need to apply KISS and encourage Tesla to support optional 20kW in-car chargers with both 1 Phase and 3 Phase input... then we have a car that can travel anywhere in Europe.
I would also hope that Tesla support CHAdeMO alongside their proprietary DC interface so that we can use the networks that are on the ground when the car arrives.
When I worked on distributed power systems for computers we had a universal input that could take power from, 1 Phase, 3 Phase, or 48V DC. We then distributed power around the system as DC and had individual power supplies for each sub-system. I hope that Tesla have done something similar with their charger architecture.�
Dec 16, 2011
Eberhard its interesting, that the Zerotracer on the World-Zeroemissen-Race, uses a 7-pole Mennekes to feed the 3x16A Brusa charger. By this they where able to use single-phase or 3-phase in star or delta configuration.�
Dec 16, 2011
Kevin Sharpe this seems so simple to me that I can only imagine that Tesla have painted themselves into a corner by not understanding power distribution in Europe (and this led them to design a connector without 3 Phase support).�
Dec 16, 2011
dpeilow Let's be absolutely crystal clear about this...
Any "European" spec Model S needs to have both 3 phase and 1 phase at 20+ kW levels anyway because the prevelent system at the domestic level in Germany, Austria, Netherlands, etc is 3 phase but in France, Spain etc it is single phase. I don't think there have been enough French voices in this discussion to highlight that, but that is my understanding from friends and colleagues who live there. So to lump all of Mainland Europe together is misleading.
In the UK it is not correct to say that three phase doesn't exist at the end user level. It is certainly in most businesses and hotels and (maybe this is luck) but I've seen it in many residential buildings including my current and my last place. It is often used in places with electric heating, small hobby workshops or just big houses. Both my grandparents' places have it, I have an uncle and aunt that use it for electric heating and I noticed the last three holiday rentals that I have been at had it (yes, I know, I do take notice of these things...). In saying that, I am not claiming that is the norm. The incomer to most houses is single phase but I am told the extra cost for three phase in a new build is typically �100, so maybe they should do it as standard.
You would be able to deploy 20kW charging very cheaply in many hotels if the cars could use three phase.
While the UK regulations don't explicitly forbid a high single phase load, it is difficult to cater for and most electricians involved with the HPC project had reservations about installing a 70A single phase device bacause of the phase imbalancing - they asked if there was a three phase variant available. I can't emphasise enough how much easier it would have been to deploy HPCs had they been three phase. Every single hotel I went to had a three phase incoming supply and could have offered 17kW (HPC level) charging from three phases without hassle. We even looked at getting phase converters in a couple of locations at a cost of a couple of thousand, because it would potentially have been worth it.
As an aside, a further advantage of having three phase at a property is that you can go beyond the 3.68 kW (16 A) limit on renewables where you have to start involving the utility and jumping through their hoops. Three phase allows 3x that.�
Dec 16, 2011
Kevin Sharpe I think many of us here recognise that we need BOTH 1 Phase and 3 Phase support in "Europe" as a whole.... I'm trying to make the point that I need both to use a UK car when I travel across the water.
I'm talking about exposure to the end user at a socket level in UK property. In my street NO houses have 3 Phase and my electricity company would not even quote to install it unless I was having electric heating installed at the same time. The houses in my street date from the 1970's.
Sorry, but of the ~100 sites that have seen surveyed I would say the majority either do not have 3 Phase or it would drive up the installation cost to the point where they will not install today. I believe this will change over time, but today I do not think this is true in many UK locations.
You mentioned the Moathouse hotel and I think that is a good example. I discussed this with the electrician last week onsite and he stated that they have lots of convenient 63A 1 Phase feeds around the property but no 3 Phase that we could use without some major ground work and cost.
I have no doubt that the ZCW requirements for 64A 1 Phase supply bias our view of the world... however, we do explicitly ask the questions about 3 Phase support and recommend installing suitable cables for future upgrades but to the best of my knowledge this has never happened (I will know more detail when all the electricians certificates are returned).�
Dec 16, 2011
Eberhard I did a trip to France and Spain in February this year and just returned from a trip to Italy (1750km within 4 days). In Spain, I found any kind of sockets, CEE 3-phase sockets with and without neutral, in the Harbor even single Phase up to 125A.
in France i found normal 3-phase CEE with socket. In Italy, I charged with 16A at 3x16A CEE socket with Neutral but found those with 4 Pins without Neutral. Even blue 20A CEE (like 16A, but fused with 20A). But anyway 3-phase is everywhere even in the U.S. otherwise, Teslas 90kW Supercharger wont work. It would really the best, having 3 smaller charger, also for the case, one may fail, then the other 2 ones would still work. Tesla why don't you hear to your customers as Georg Blankenship promised to us.�
Dec 16, 2011
dpeilow We appear to be talking about the difference between small B&Bs and larger hotels, restaurants or workplaces here.
Either they have had some upgrade work done or something doesn't stack up. The main hotel supplies have/had nothing like this level on a single phase without serious rearrangement of the other hotel circuits. However they had a secondary panel close to a parking space by reception that could have supported 32A per phase (i.e. 3P 32A = 22 kW).
This was before the completely separate single phase supply to the car park was "discovered", which should have enough to run an HPC as long as the floodlights aren't on...
Bottom line is that this install could have happened in October 2010 if the charger was three phase.
Likewise Marriott Heathrow would not have the 60A, 13.8kW restriction if the charger was three phase.
QHotels Nottingham wanted to install nearer the building but that had to be three phase.
Aviemore would have been cheaper to install had it been three phase.
It was a stroke of luck that the Castle Taunton had recently removed a rubbish compactor, or that would have had to be three phase.
The Scarlet Hotel has a socket in the car park already so if someone had a 22kW charger it's already there.
Etc.�
Dec 16, 2011
Kevin Sharpe The Moathouse did not wish to use the location by reception so it was not available even if it did support 3 Phase (which the site electrician did not mention when we discussed upgrades for future EV expansion).
The Moathouse has at least two 63A supplies in the car park area. One is today used for the ZCW installation (45A) and the canal boats, and the second is under discussion as a new location for the HPC. As far as I'm aware the flood lights are not an issue but I'll know more when I visit in January.
Unfortunately, when I tried to use these sockets none of them worked. This is why they installed ZCW Charging Stations in the sister hotel (Bedruthan) 100 yards up the road.
All delays to this installation are due to Tesla... nothing to do with whether the HPC supports 1 or 3 Phase IMO.
I cannot say whether the ~10 HPC installs would have been easier if they had been 3 Phase because so much depends on power availability and willingness of third parties to engage. What I can say is that in our ~100 surveys we have not seen 3 Phase availability on the ground even though it clearly is the main power source for many of the sites. This may be because we are not pushing for 3 Phase or simply that our requests for 45A-64A are easily met.�
Dec 16, 2011
dpeilow At the time that was the prefered location of the then General Manager. Only the requirements for 70A stopped it being used.
The second was agreed as the location for the HPC when I handed the project over, so I'm surprised they are going around this loop again. IIRC it is an 80A supply too.
But those of us in the discussions 12 months ago will recall that three phase was very much cited as a way to get the HPC installed here and this was one of the sites where a phase converter was considered (at the time we were not told that the car park lights were on a completely separate incoming supply).
There's a slight difference in that an HPC is a single 70A load whereas the two ZCW sockets can be split across phases or perhaps the electricians are considering diversity in the installation.
I'm not trying to say you are wrong but there is a difference when you get into the ~20kW regime as opposed to the 7kW power levels that a single ZCW socket gives out, especially if that 80A HPC2 is going to be used to overnight charge a 300 mile Model S for six or seven hours at a time. If done regularly that could cause upstream problems.
Maybe I'm extremely lucky, but I know that if there was such a thing as a three phase version of the UMC, I could plug in at 22kW at my flat, my office, the family farm, my old employer's office, my old employer's field site - either directly in 4 cases or with nothing more than �35 worth of bits from Screwfix at the 5th.�
Dec 16, 2011
Kevin Sharpe I completely agree... installing two 7kW 1 Phase Charging Stations is 'trivial' for many locations in the UK.�
Dec 16, 2011
doug Guys, I'm not sure all these details are particularly necessary here. I think the bottom line is that while 3-phase is needed in Europe the charger still needs to be able to support single phase. So the answer to 1-phase or 3-phase is, of course, should do both! On this I believe most of us agree.
I like Eberhard's idea of three single phase chargers for its conceptual simplicity. Concerns over cost and heat dissipation are I think non-issues or at least relatively easy to fix. For cost, just charge more. For heat dissipation, just run at lower power or tie into the motor cooling loop (which may already be the case). Packaging might be a problem depending how much effort Tesla wants to invest on the issue. Perhaps in the year between North American and EU launches, Tesla can scale the form factor of their 10kW single phase charger down by one third (maybe make a 7kW version).�
Dec 16, 2011
Eberhard I would be happy, if Tesla make it possible to charge with the second charger on a second phase. By this i can double my charge while charging on 3x16A with a total of 32A. But even this possibility was denied by JB Straubel. What if the Signature Edition will come with 2 charger? the second will be nearly worthless ballast to me.
If thermal load of 2 chargers can be handled, why not from 3? If they are liquid-coold - no problem at all.�
Dec 16, 2011
dpeilow Here's a good article on the supply situation in France. Seems similar to the UK in that three phase can be installed, but where it differs is the automatic trip out if the load is imbalanced. That would suggest three phase charging is a must at high power in such installations.
3 - Phase Electricity Supplies - a Total France Factsheet
Also a useful forum post on the same site: three phase power - View topic :: Total France
Here is the regulation that says 60A is the limit for one phase: Association Promotelec : Amendement A1 �* la NF C 14-100 : du nouveau dans la GTL�
Dec 16, 2011
emq There is a unoficial agreemen of european Players:For massproduction, Single phase 230V/13A/3kW, above: 3phase or DC or wireless charging.
Neclect supporting 3ph charging, is a NO, to 3ph oriented market�
Dec 17, 2011
Eberhard 43kW 3-phase charging by Renault
43kW 3-phase charging - about half of teslas Supercharger but possible available at any Mennekes Type 2 charging station
�
Dec 17, 2011
dpeilow umm, why have you posted that in the middle of my quote?�
Dec 18, 2011
Eberhard Sorry, was to fast editing�
Dec 21, 2011
Adm So, it would appear there will be no DC or 3 phase charging for the 160mi battery option... Wow, my sales representative will have his work cut out to explain why I would want Model S with so limited charging possibilities...�
Dec 21, 2011
Lloyd The release did not say that there would be no DC charging. It just says that your access to Superchargers would not be available. Three phase I believe is yet to be determined.�
Dec 21, 2011
widodh Indeed, this is the US release. We'll just have to see what they say about 3-phase charging in Europe.�
Dec 21, 2011
emq AC Propulsion delivered PEM for Roadster 0-499. ACP learned, there is no EU market without 3ph charging & will deliver 3ph Charging for EU Vehicles. I hope TM will learn from ACP again�
Dec 22, 2011
TEG Huh? Where is a reference that ACP provided PEM? I thought Tesla had licensed some ACP technology, but built (or had it built) themselves.
Also, Roadster doesn't offer 3 phase charging, so why use Roadster PEM as an example of your point?
Which ACP vehicles are doing 3-phase charging? They provided hardware for the Mini-E trial vehicles. Those didn't do 3-phase charging either, did they?�
Dec 23, 2011
emq You are right, TM payed licence to ACP for roadster 1-499, that was the Eberhard Aerea
ACP delivers the latest technologie to E-Tracer. The first gerneration of E-Tracer were identical hardware like Mini-E, but not limited to 50A 240V charging, full range 10-80A 240V charging for E-Tracer.
Future E-Tracer will have ACP equiment with 3ph charging for Europe, it was a long jurney to convince ACP for 3ph charging
BMW tried to charge 32A 230V in Europe, lessen learned, they gave it up, because, it will not be supported by most Utilitys
There is a investigation for 1ph charging, result:
Many 3ph grid get in trouble with massive paralel charging with 230V 16A, because that constallation never exists bevor.
TM is the only Company, have not lessean learnd about 3ph charging.�
Dec 24, 2011
widodh I'm quoting from another thread: No Supercharging for 40Kwh
If the rep is telling the truth about how Tesla thinks about SuperCharging it might be a good thing for the 3-phase charging discussion!
Imho Tesla would see a clear case where 3-phase charging is the way to give European Model S users a possibility to charge with ~20kW and avoid the use of Quick/Super charging.�
Dec 24, 2011
dpeilow If he is telling the truth then they've chosen the wrong chemistry and it also begs the question as to whether the 90kW rate was chosen just to hit the arbitrary 45 minute charge time quoted 2 years ago. Why not limit it to 50kW for longevity?
A LEAF battery is supposed to be ~$9k so that would make an equivalent 85kWh one ~$32k.
Perhaps that German troll we used to get was not so far of the mark...
However if 90% of charging is at work or home then a high proportion of that remaining 10% will likely be hotel charging or during visits, so the actual amount of rapid charging may well be 2%. Still, that would make you have to be Mr Average.�
Dec 24, 2011
Norbert This becomes an interesting consideration. ~$9k and ~$32k is less than I would have expected, what's the source of this info?
And yes, it would be an argument in favor of 3-phase support, as unfortunate as it would be.�
Feb 7, 2012
eledille Writing letters to Tesla is good, but is there some online pressure group I can join too?�
Feb 7, 2012
ElSupreme I agree with the SuperCharging speed should be tailored to battery damage/convience and not just put on an arbitrary scale.
The Leaf battery is pretty big. I doubt you could cram 3.5 of them in the size of the Model S pack.
With battery chemistry there are a LOT of variables. You have volumetric power density, mass power density, capacity, instant current draw, longevity, cycle life, temperature performance, cost, and charge rate.
Perhaps in the future Tesla can offer different battery packs for different needs. But until they are stable and they get critical mass of people wanting different characteristics from their packs I personally think they picked fairly well.
But I do have access to a 480VAC 3 phase 60A circuit at work. It would be awesome to charge my car off of that!�
Feb 7, 2012
dpeilow ^ wow...are you the first American to say you want 3 phase in the US model? :biggrin:�
Feb 7, 2012
ElSupreme I mean when I have 26kW at my disposal at work, and it would give me an excuse to park inside why not.
EDIT: And 60A is breaker size I actually don't know how big the feed is.�
Feb 7, 2012
eledille That's actually 49.8 kW...�
Feb 7, 2012
widodh Not that I know of. We are talking about it here on TMC. But you can always drop a couple of e-mails at a random @teslamotors.com e-mail address?�
Feb 7, 2012
eledille I was thinking of a facebook group with a steadily increasing member count or something similar...�
Feb 8, 2012
Eberhard I am sorry for you, because like me, you would not be able to charge the Model S, despite the twin charger, with the full power but 60A. With 3-phase ability done with an third 10kW charger you could charge with 30kW.�
Feb 8, 2012
Lloyd Eberhard, Would you not have to upgrade the PEM also as it has a limit of 20 kW?�
Feb 8, 2012
widodh The Model S no longer has a PEM.
It has an inverter for the motor and one or two separate chargers. In theory you could install a third and have them all charge of a different phase.
The only problem is the lack of space under the rear seats and the connector design....�
Feb 8, 2012
dpeilow Lack of space yet it can carry a mountain bike, surf board and flat screen TV. I'd forego the surf board.�
Feb 8, 2012
WarpedOne Which are exactly the same things. Inverter, PEM, controller, XYZ - it controlls energy flow into the motor and back into batteries. Name changes, function does not.�
Feb 8, 2012
Eberhard The Roadster has the charging unit integrated in the PEM. At the version 1.5 the charger was part of the motor electronics using the coils of the motor.�
Feb 8, 2012
Lloyd Thanks Eberhard!�
Feb 8, 2012
ElSupreme How does 3 phase work. I can't remember that from my power electronics class?
208*60*3 != 49.8kW�
Feb 8, 2012
doug Based on what you posted earlier ("But I do have access to a 480VAC 3 phase 60A circuit at work.") it's
( 480/sqrt(3) )V * 60A * 3 = 480V *60A *sqrt(3) = 49.8kW
That's 480V from one phase to the next, 277V to neutral.
If instead you have 208V between phases (120V to neutral) it's
208V*60*sqrt(3) = 21.6kW
Not sure where you got 26kW.�
Feb 10, 2012
widodh A fellow dutchman who also signed my petition to Tesla went to the Model X event and the Santa Row store to check out the Model S.
He promised me he ask around regarding the 3-phase charging again, again, again and again.
In the Santa Row they didn't know anything about it. When he told them it would take 24 hours to charge a Model S the response was: "Wow, that's long!"
Anyway, this morning (evening for him) I got an e-mail, which translated to:
Don't get our hopes up yet, but it might be that he had an interesting talk with JB, Elon or George?�
Feb 10, 2012
eledille I hope your friend wakes up soon, I find typing with crossed fingers very cumbersome.�
Feb 10, 2012
Eberhard I heart, that the ISO-Norm is going to allow only 1-phase charging with max. 16A only, using the proper CEE blue socket. If you use a 3-phase socket, you have to connect a 3-phase device. To get the homologation for Europe (needed if you are going to sell more than 1000 units, which the Roadster didn't reach) you have to stick to the rules. One phase charging with more than 16A single-phase is already illegal in Switzerland. Also the socket, used by Tesla Model S will not get homologation because it does not comply to European standards like Type 2 sockets. It looks like, that Model S will not get the approval for Europe which may lead in a delay of introduction of Model S here. I don't expect first deliveries in 2012. (Thats bad to me too)�
Feb 10, 2012
eledille Eberhard: Better late than useless. Brutally enforced European standards compliance would be absolutely perfect in this case
If Tesla would otherwise have to delay European deliveries, I will bet that they're able to find a solution pretty quickly. They're planning to pocket quite a bit of extra money per car sold in Europe compared to in the US. I'm worried about tooling changes to accommodate a larger plug, though. I can't find any images of the charge port, only the plug...�
Feb 10, 2012
widodh You might be right.
I just got an e-mail from the USA.
He stated that Tesla is still dodging the 3-phase questions. A nice smile but that's it, he got the impression that from upperhand they have been told to be quite about it.
Then he got to talk to another guy (I'll keep his name for myself) who told him that the Model S has to be 3-phase capable. This guy knew a lot of details about Europe and he said the Model S will support 3-phase charging since Tesla HAS to in order to sell the Model S in Europe. He told him that they would install a third charger in the car so each charger can draw power of a different phase.
That would indeed be great news, but it will probably lead to another delay of the Model S in Europe at least.
He'll be back in NL on Monday and give me a call with all the details.�
Feb 10, 2012
dpeilow Sounds positive, but also sounds like there is a lot of confusion.
Sad that is taking regulations and not customer requirements to make this happen.
But if the above statement about regs is correct (and actually I don't believe it because IEC sets them and we have copies) then it would also affect the future sales of other 32A capable cars like 2013 LEAF or Focus. If it is a new thing, Tesla could also turn down the AC charging to 16A and rely on DC.�
Feb 10, 2012
widodh Yes, I'm not convinced as well.
I'm still positive and I don't think Tesla will turn down AC charging since that would really kill all your sales.
I also heard that the Model X had been pushed really hard inside Tesla and now it has been revealed that ALL resources will go back to the Model S.
I'll bug Tesla about this on the Geneva motor show, they can count on that!�
Feb 10, 2012
Kevin Sharpe so will I :wink:�
Feb 10, 2012
dpeilow With a bit of luck, so will I.�
Feb 10, 2012
jkirkebo Ford & Nissan could easily put in three-phase support. It's just a different rectifier and a Mennekes-receptable instead of the J1772 one. Very easy to do. The actual charger can be identical if the rectifier is off-board.�
Feb 10, 2012
eledille dpeilow: According to Wikipedia, IEC62196 allows single phase up to 32 A (80 A is US only), but does it allow single phase devices to connect to three phase outlets? That seems like too much of a dirty hack to me.
If it doesn't, then use of all three phase outlets would be prohibited unless the car supports three phase. That shouldn't affect homologation, but it would be very optimistic to try to sell a car that can't at all use any public charge points more powerful than 16 A single phase. This can easily be enforced by having the charge point shut off when it sees an unbalanced load.
jkirkebo: The rectifier would have to be on-board. Even a 32 A rectifier is going to weigh at least a couple of kg, it needs cooling and weatherproofing, which add bulk. I don't mean it's impossible, just too impractical to sell. But if the single phase charger is air cooled, they should be able to fit a liquid cooled 32 A three phase charger in its place. They will fix it if they have to.�
Feb 10, 2012
Eberhard the liquid-cooled 3-phase 22kW charger from Brusa weight only 12kg. Less then then one on of board charger of Model S with 15kg.
The restriction to use 3-phase is with the standard red CEE socket. The Zero-line may have less diameter then those of phase. This caused already some HPC connected to 63A that the Zero-line broke because of overload. The Zero-line usually carries the balance load between the phases which is usually much less, except when you draw the current on one phase only.�
Feb 10, 2012
doug By "Zero-line" I assume you mean what we call neutral.�
Feb 10, 2012
emq I am Member of CES TK 69, Swiss regulation for Electric road vehicles.
My college is convener of wireless charging and participatetes in IEC & Cenelec TC 69.
IEC 61851 is a international frame, within 1ph 240V80A is ok, if national rueles are fullfilled
Switzerland allowes 1ph 230V 16A.
No confusion, just beliefe it.
And switzerland will not allow more than 16A 1ph 230V for a mass production vehicle, like model S.
I try since 2009, to support Teslamotors R&D for a European charging solution, but when PaloAlto decided not to support 3ph, after a 1h conference call, they change Telefonnumber of my Contact person & dont answer me email & Teslamotors Switzerland do not allow me to enter the Service part of the shop, i supported the Electrican for the HPC installation in Teslamotors CH Service Station, wich does not yet work with 63A 230V.
I discussed 32A230V with the Nissan Leaf responsable for CH and we noticed that the 6kW leaf charger will only charge with 16A 230V 3,6kW in switzerland.
3ph charging is no tecnical problem, its a political one, so we cannot solve it by tecnical recomandations.
I hope this information will wake up teslamotors to forget the european market with 1ph above 16A.�
Feb 11, 2012
widodh I think that is really important to understand. 3-phase is indeed not a technical problem, it's just that EV manufacturers from outside Europe seem to neglect it.
Regulations for power distribution in the EU are very strict, but that also gives us a great network which is very widespread.
I'm still very hopeful since almost nobody would buy a Model S if it only charges on 16A.
A potential customer at a Tesla Store:
- "Great car! How long does it take to charge?"
- "Well, sir, from empty to full it will take about 25 hours"
The answer could have been 4 or 8 hours. So I still think Tesla will come through, but they are just very silent on this topic until everything is resolved.�
Feb 11, 2012
dpeilow Interesting that emq also had a 1h conference call on this topic...�
Feb 11, 2012
Kevin Sharpe I think the stock holders on this forum really need to wake up to this issue... Tesla are making some terrible engineering decisions which will seriously hurt the company.�
Feb 11, 2012
dpeilow That 62196 article on Wikipedia is a mess. I don't know who has been editing it recently but it needs a complete review.
Anyway, I went back to IEC61851 which sets current limits and signalling. It does specify 32A for both 1 and 3 phase at Mode 2 and above and there are no national exceptions stated. It also says in a footnote:
So there is not problem as far as IEC is concerned.
Plugging 32A single phase into a IEC 62192 type 2 three phase socket is allowed and is already being done. This has already been tested with the Roadster, for example.�
Feb 11, 2012
jkirkebo You misunderstood me, my phrasing was probably bad. By off-board I meant the rectifier should not be integrated into the charger, but a separate device (still mounted in the car). This way they could use the same charger(s) for single- and three-phase, just use the proper rectifier. Probably a dual auto-switching one would be the best, using three-phase when present. Then feed the charger(s) DC.�
Feb 11, 2012
widodh The problem might not be IEC62196, but it could be something different?
I e-mail a contact of me to find out if this is really true.
I also found the right person of Tesla Motors on Linked In. He's from the EU, so I hope I can get in contact with him to get this a bit more clear.
It would be great if Tesla said: "Yes, we will natively support 3-phase charging on the Model S in the EU". I'd sleep much better..�
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