teslamotorclub: Warranty/Servicing - official Tesla responses (incl GeorgeB) part 1

Recently there's been much drama regarding Warranty/Servicing.

Starting a new thread hoping we can consolidate official responses from Tesla in one place and keep the drama/commentary in separate threads. Perhaps the mods can help.

I'll add some of my mail thread with Walter momentarily.

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2012/09/12 - 2012/09/13

brianman said:

Hi, Walter. No complaints this time. Just a request for some more information...

I see the recent update with 4 yr service plans:
http://www.teslamotors.com/service

I'd like to see more about what the warranty covers or not.

Actually, more generally my question is this:

Is there an offering for bumper to bumper service and (extended?) warranty for 8 years? I basically want the "everything's covered, just enjoy the vehicle for 8 years" plan. Will that be available, and at what price?
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Walter Franck said:

Hi, good to hear from you.

The warranty is very robust. The idea is if something breaks due to a defect we�ll fix it (for example, if a door handle doesn�t operate or your power rear lift gate isn�t operating we will fix it). The annual service will take care of all consumable items except tires.

At the moment Tesla does not have an extended warranty. I have fielded this request a few times, it�s usually near the top of my list for customer requests that I send to management.
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brianman said:

if something breaks due to a defect we�ll fix it
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So when the headlights burn out or the brake pads need replacing, are those included (parts and labor) or not? I'm a bit confused by this conditional.

I think you mean something more like "extreme conditions like converting it to a hovercraft and taking it to the arctic aren't covered," but the phrasing used is much broader than that.
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Walter Franck said:

Items covered under warranty would not have a labor cost. I am waiting on a reply from my service team on if headlight bulbs are covered, I�ll keep you up to date.
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Walter Franck said:

The warranty will cover everything with the exception of tires during the warranty period. Headlights, taillights, door handles, touch screen, steering wheel and so on are covered.

Alterations such as hovercraft kits, external rockets and warp drives will not be supported. Excessive application of bumper stickers may be frowned upon.

Tesla has had a lot of practice taking great care of Roadsters and we plan to continue this by taking great care of Model S.
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Thanks for looking into this. Little disappointed about lack of warp drive but looks like they are listening. :smile:
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Thanks for reaching out to Tesla, Brianman, and getting facts. (I am also disappointed over the lack of warp drive, but perhaps that will be offered by Model X launch. Hoping ...)
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Screw the warp drive, stickers add like 30HP each
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AnOutsider said: ?

Screw the warp drive, stickers add like 30HP each
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depends on your sticker choice :wink:
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Love Tesla sense of humor! :biggrin:
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They didn't nix installation of a hyperspace drive. There is always hope, so long as no one from Cloud City Mechanics works on it.
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I need to do an upgrade that gives my S teletransportation capabilities so my wife doesn't get carsick. I know it wont be supported by Tesla but I hope it wont void the warranty
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brianman said: ?

Starting a new thread hoping we can consolidate official responses from Tesla in one place and keep the drama/commentary in separate threads.
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We may not have drama. But we certainly have comedy in this thread. Always a tease when you check the thread for new info and only find a new lame teleportation joke or the like :tongue:
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I don't know guys I am really worried I am going to get bent over a barrel on warranty if I have 'excessive application of bumper stickers'!

:biggrin: :tongue:

if you can't tell i am joking
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An e-mail I received... Looking forward the blog post... it should make us all feel better I think.

Joost de Vries said:

You raise some good points in your email and I've discussed in Tesla where the communication could have been misconstrued.
George will come out with a blog in a day or so that dives deeper into some of the questions and comments posed.

What I can say as a prelude to that is that the $600 per year/12,500 miles is really an all-in, everything covered price with the
only exclusion tires as this depends on the 'right foot' of the owner which dictates how much rubber they leave on the road.

Light bulbs, alignments, rotation, fluids, wipers, brakes whatever is included and with the unlimited Ranger service it is included
basically no matter where. Our owners should have ZERO uncertainty about owning our cars apart from the happy right foot
when stomping on the accelerator pedal.

Please give it a few days until George's blog comes out, it should clarify open questions people have.

Regards, Joost
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FlasherZ said: ?

An e-mail I received... Looking forward the blog post... it should make us all feel better I think.
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Nice! ! ! !

From Roadster owners....or those in the know, how much of this service could rangers do? ? ? ?

I would think all of it just about, right? ? ? Otherwise, what to do about owners who live no where near a service center.....
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service fee might be worth it...

FlasherZ said: ?

An e-mail I received... Looking forward the blog post... it should make us all feel better I think.
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notice alignment is included!!! i don't know about everyone else but even in atlanta, there are plenty of potholes and without the lifetime alignment from the tire shop i would be out at least a grand considering how many times i've gotten my wheels aligned.

i'd like to see if that really comes through, especially if i can use the ranger service once-twice a year for a wheel alignment. if that's the case then i think the service cost is absolutely worth it.
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chmod a+wrx said: ?

From Roadster owners....or those in the know, how much of this service could rangers do? ? ? ?

I would think all of it just about, right? ? ? Otherwise, what to do about owners who live no where near a service center.....
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They could do almost everything that didn't require putting the car up on a lift. So outside of replacing the battery and maybe a few other things, they really did quite a lot in the field. You may have seen pictures where the entire front of the car was off and parts all over the place during a service. They once spent 8 hours with almost the entire front of the car in pieces trying to fix the AC before deciding they needed to take it to Chicago for a mini-vacation and discovering it was a faulty circuit board or sensor that measured incoming
cabin temperature. He was on the phone with Tesla engineers throughout the day trying to diagnose the problem as well. Others have more information but that was my only major service at my house.

FlasherZ said: ?

An e-mail I received... Looking forward the blog post... it should make us all feel better I think.
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Thanks for clarifying that and reaching out to him. Glad they're going to try and address some of the concerns raised here. I have a feeling that while it still may be on the expensive side, people will be happy with the level of service they'll receive from Tesla.
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The Rangers will sometimes use third party garages to do certain things, such as tire replacements, when required. If it's something bigger they can trailer it back to their service center and return it to you later.

I do still think it's a little pricey for people who live near a service center, but the anywhere plan is a great deal for people like me, 400 km from thr nearest location.
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Doug_G said: ?

The Rangers will sometimes use third party garages to do certain things, such as tire replacements, when required. If it's something bigger they can trailer it back to their service center and return it to you later.

I do still think it's a little pricey for people who live near a service center, but the anywhere plan is a great deal for people like me, 400 km from thr nearest location.
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I will DEFINITELY get the "anywhere" plan. I do hope they eventually place service centers in geographically balanced locations rather than just hitting the highest concentration of customers; it's a bit circular otherwise.
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@KBF, would your nearest be Chicago, or would they have to use Toronto or Vancouver?
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Key for me is whether they will offer loaners. Being stuck without a car and spending the day in a service center waiting room isn't for me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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teslasguy said: ?

Key for me is whether they will offer loaners. Being stuck without a car and spending the day in a service center waiting room isn't for me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Maybe have those previously leased Roadsters on hand?!
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efusco said: ?

Maybe have those previously leased Roadsters on hand?!
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I'll do cartwheels next time a bulb blows out...
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RDoc said: ?

That's certainly true, and anyone who thinks about it realizes that part of the sales price of any car (or anything else) is the warranty coverage. Included warranty coverage is the customary way of doing business in the automobile industry and customers use the length and degree of included coverage as a major factor when comparing car prices.

What's different about Tesla is that they are advertising a 4 year warranty, just like the other companies, but they neglect to make clear that you have to pay extra for it. There's no mention of the required service contract in the warranty itself, nor on the website where the warranty is specified.

For that matter, they are advertising an 8 year battery warranty and AFAIK there's been no information anywhere about if it will even be possible to keep that warranty intact, or what it might cost to do so.
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Incorrect. Warranty and the optional service agreement are TWO separate matters. As bonnie cited on tesla's page, they are offering a standard 4 years / 50,000 mile warranty BUT that warranty is no good if you don't buy their service plan...

bonnie1194 said: ?

If you read the full specs for the car at Model S Specs and Standard Features | Tesla Motors, you'll see this:

View attachment 9809
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NigelM said: ?

Just want to note that GeorgeB wrote primarily about the service plan in his post. His reference to the warranty was as follows:

This is no different to other car manufacturer. I get the discussion about price, I get the discussion about information, but (and maybe it's me) I don't get all this discussion about warranty.
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Huh? It is ABSOLUTELY different to other car manufacturer. I have NEVER used a dealer for service and I have never been denied a warranty claim. I adhere to the manufacturer's maintenance schedule and do the work myself. Per Federal Law this is allowable and unless the manufacturer can prove that something I did or did not do caused the problem they must perform the repair under warranty.

At the end of the day, this is just a freaking car. There is nothing new or unique apart from the batteries and motor. All the mechanical bits are the same as every other car. I (or an independent shop) are perfectly capable of inspecting the suspension, brakes, wheels, wiper blades etc. My tire shop offers a $175 lifetime alignment. There's nothing "special" about aligning a Tesla. Bottom line is Tesla is not showing the value. Wipers cost like $26. Brakes are NOT going to be worn by 50k. Heck my wife's Diesel Jeep Liberty didn't use up it's first pads until 80k and we do some towing with that rig. With regen the Tesla it will be longer. Coolant lasts for 5 years these days. So again, Tesla, what are you actually DOING for my $600?

I completely understand if someone isn't mechanically inclined or wants the convenience of having Tesla do everything and if the price is worth it to you (especially those of you who are remote) then by all means participate in their plan. However, I LIKE doing maintenance on cars. Just last weekend my 1.5 year-old son and I changed the brake pads on my Roadster (not because they were worn, but because some of us are experimenting w/ different pad compounds, see here: Brake Pads ). It took longer with him "helping" but we had a ball.

So here's my plan. I will do all the mechanical inspections myself. I will pay Tesla an hour or 2 of shop labor to inspect the EV bits like running a bleed test on the pack. I will continue to pay for annual service on my Roadster (so I'm still "supporting the company"). I absolutely believe Model S is worth the money to buy the car. It's a phenomenal product. But I refuse to be bullied into paying for service that I can do myself.

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Lloyd said: ?

Interesting that Toyota provides instructions for owner servicing for those that want to do the service themselves. Seems pretty simple from the instructions in the owners manual.

http://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/document/om/OM42838U/pdf/sec_04-03.pdf

http://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/document/om/OM42838U/pdf/sec_04-02.pdf
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This is some great info. Thanks for posting!
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Larry Chanin said: ?

Perhaps heems could have worded his posting more tactfully, and of course there's nothing wrong with others being critical of the service plan. However, that doesn't alter the fact that we all had a 100% refundable deposit coupled with an ability to defer for as long as we wanted to permit time to obtain all the information each person needed to become comfortable.
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You're riding the defer argument too much here.

Suppose you sign the MVPA with faith that Tesla is going to treat its customers well.

Two days later they say required servicing will be $7,000 every 100 miles. Would you still be making this argument?

For most people, my theoeretical pricing would seem "outrageous" to announce after people lock in their MVPAs. To some, the $600 every 12,500 is equivalently troubling given the marketing of the Model S EV as cheaper than an ICE to maintain.

The key point of concern (as I see it in this and other threads) is voiding of warranty by not making an additional required payment for servicing, and one that isn't trivial (like the $10 mentioned in one of the threads). For those wanting a full service option, I think the $2400/4yr with ranger service is a good deal (and I think most agree).
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efusco said: ?

I love to brag not only what great MPG my Prius gets, but how little maintenance is for it. 130k miles and my brakes still have over 50% of the original surface. The ICE has maybe 80k miles of time on it b/c of the EV/gliding capabilities so it's not running all the time. Oil changes are only every 10k miles and probably not really necessary even that often for most drivers.
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Why does Tesla keep telling us that brake pads are covered by the service plan, when under no circumstances should they need replacement after just 4 years / 50k miles? Unless the brake pad has a defect and cracks, they simply will not be worn out enough to justify replacement. Which is why Tesla either needs to be clear that it will replace the brake pad at least once under the 4 year/50k warranty, regardless of the amount of wear, or simply shut up about this benefit that will never occur.

RDoc said: ?

My concern is that maintaining the battery warranty after 4 years will require a comprehensive warranty extension which might be quite expensive, particularly for years 7 and 8.
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Which is why Tesla needs to share more information about the maintenance required after year 4 and the associated costs ASAP. Every other car comes with a full maintenance schedule. Tesla needs to stop leaving us in the dark.
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That's right Nigel...I've just had my second annual service on my Roadster...it's not just the unique parts, but the unique training and experience that the Rangers have..no way is Johnny "the greaseball" local mechanic coming near my Roadster or Model S (No unqualified soul will ever service my cars period!)

I just reviewed my Roadster's annual maintenance service checklist...15 catagories containing 56 items...a typical licensed mechanic could perform most of the list WITH THE EXCEPTIONS of the Motor, Battery & PEM maintenance...gee, kind of sounds important that the Motor, Battery & PEM (most important & expensive parts of the car) be kept up by someone qualified to do so, don't it?

I can't for the life of me understand how folks could ever even contemplate this (Johnny Greaseball) let alone waste time pissing & moaning about it...you just spent six figures on a new car, then you allow Barney Fife to work on it to save a few quid...:scared::biggrin:

NigelM said: ?

Anyway you look at it Model S is a performance car with state-of-the-art technology.

I'm not going to give him:

View attachment 9763

One of these:

View attachment 9764
And let him loose on my Model S! :wink:
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You KNOW that the Menlo Park service manager, Johnny, is now being called "Greaseball Johnny".
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I've always referred to him as "Mr". Greaseball Johnny...:wink::biggrin:

(I hear he's an artist with a torque wrench!)

bonnie1194 said: ?

You KNOW that the Menlo Park service manager, Johnny, is now being called "Greaseball Johnny".
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Am I the only one getting a sense of deja vu from when the options pricing was announced?
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Trnsl8r said: ?

Am I the only one getting a sense of deja vu from when the options pricing was announced?
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Not at all...

Just wait until the super charger announcement next week, I'm sure they'll be plenty of fuss and disappointment around that also...
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Actually, my Roadster would already have had at least one brake pad replaced already because a chunk broke off of it. It's not covered by warranty as it is a wear item - no Model S-like service plan - and Tesla insists on changing the rotor if they change a pad. So that would have been a fair bit of money for a modest chunk of missing brake pad. So the pad has not been changed. (I'm going to swap them over to Carbotech... they're in FedEx's hands right now.)
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mnx said: ?

Not at all...

Just wait until the super charger announcement next week, I'm sure they'll be plenty of fuss and disappointment around that also...
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I think a light bulb came on... demand is currently greater than supply (for the time being) so the way they deal with it is by raising the bar. This natural economics... there is no other way to deal with it. They have thousands on the waiting list - making the requirements higher doesn't really hurt them - people start dropping like flied but they keep going as long as they have a good list of "faithfuls." But in the long run, they're going to lose people either by how they treated reservationists that canceled or by observation of how this company treated it's early adopters...
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Ok I tried to be prepared today and get some G-48 coolant to be able to top off the coolant levels of the motor and battery if need. Toyota (and Tesla?) is very specific that this coolant must be used at specific dilution percentage. The problem is that G-48 is an industrial coolant and is not available for retail purchase! BMW / Saab uses this coolant and you can buy it from them. $$$

Edit: Saab recently switched to Dex-cool and does not carry it anymore. BMW dealer and the source below is all I could find.

Update: I was able to find it online at a motorcycle parts store. 1 Litre at $18.99 plus $8 shipping. Should be fine for topping levels when needed.

http://www.motosport.com/dirtbike/MOTOREX-G48-ANTIFREEZE
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Jaff said: ?

I just reviewed my Roadster's annual maintenance service checklist...15 catagories containing 56 items...a typical licensed mechanic could perform most of the list WITH THE EXCEPTIONS of the Motor, Battery & PEM maintenance...gee, kind of sounds important that the Motor, Battery & PEM (most important & expensive parts of the car) be kept up by someone qualified to do so, don't it?

I can't for the life of me understand how folks could ever even contemplate this (Johnny Greaseball) let alone waste time pissing & moaning about it...you just spent six figures on a new car, then you allow Barney Fife to work on it to save a few quid...:scared::biggrin:
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Uh, *I'M* planning to do all mechanical work on my Model S. I don't trust Barney Fife either. Doug's brake pad comment is exactly why I do things myself. Replacing rotors every time you replace the brake pads is ridiculous and shows that either Tesla knows nothing about fixing cars or is a blatant money grab (I think they do know how to work on cars so my vote is for the latter). There is a published minimum rotor thickness so as long as the rotor is not at or below the minimum you can keep using it.

Also, the only reason the motor and PEM need maintenance in the Roadster is because they are air-cooled. As I posted earlier I am fine w/ paying for Roadster service because there is actual work to be done and I can see the value of them pulling the parts and cleaning them, etc. But in Model S all that stuff is liquid-cooled. So as long as the coolant isn't leaking out there's nothing to do. At least I can't THINK of anything that would need to be done. If Tesla can tell me otherwise and explain the work they're doing to justify the price then I'll happily pay it. But so far it just sounds like they pulled a number out of their arses (or did a profit gap-analysis) and figured that since it was in line w/ ICE's in the same price range people would pay it because that's what they're used to paying on their current cars.

That being said, and as I posted earlier, not everyone is mechanically inclined or wants to spend an afternoon wrenching on their car. If that's you then buy Tesla's service and enjoy life. But it just doesn't add up for me.
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NigelM said: ?

BMW includes a no-cost maintenance program for 4 years or 50,000 miles. Note though that on the sales pages of their website they ask you to factor that in when comparing costs to other cars and claim that you need to measure the true total cost. They say the maintenance program is worth $2,000.

For years 5 and 6 you can buy two-year plan as follows:
View attachment 9781

All this can be picked apart, but in truth it's probably comparable. It would be fair to ask if Tesla should be comparable or better/cheaper.

---U p d a t e ---

On to Mercedes then. I scanned through their webpage and couldn't find prices.....Did find this in the FAQ:
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But you must remember that this price is for 50,000 to 100,000 miles which is probably about twice as costly as the first 50,000 miles. And on these BMWs you have synthetic oil changes (I think BMW puts like 7L in their cars too), and before 100,000 miles probably some transmission work (at least a fluid flush), new spark plugs, and probably water pump and timing belt/chain, and brake pads. These all come after 50,000k and should be done around 80k in general. All of this (except maybe the water pump) should be stuff that the Tesla doesn't have!

Sure the Tesla has lots of other things that are complex, but most of them are electronic and really maintenance free. If they break they break. You can't really 'maintain' them. And besides is the Tesla tech going to do anything to them other than plug in a diagnostic tool?

The point is an EV IS less maintenance. Tesla is doing inspections. And a lot of that is for THEIR benefit. I don't know why I have to pay for it. From a business aspect it makes perfect sense. I am just disappointed in the price. I mean at my electric rates and 20,000 miles per year I will end up paying more than TWICE in 'maintenance/inspections' than I do in electricity! Probably around $720 for maintenance, and around $350 in electricity. And I don't produce any electricity at my house (... yet).
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strider said: ?

Doug's brake pad comment is exactly why I do things myself. Replacing rotors every time you replace the brake pads is ridiculous and shows that either Tesla knows nothing about fixing cars or is a blatant money grab (I think they do know how to work on cars so my vote is for the latter). There is a published minimum rotor thickness so as long as the rotor is not at or below the minimum you can keep using it.
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I believe they do have sound reasons for that decision. First of all Tesla has small shops and they don't have the ability to machine rotors in-house (heck right now Toronto can't mount tires themselves, although I hear they're getting their own machine). If you shop it out to a third party there are delays, it will cost a good fraction of the price of a new part, and you have no control over the quality of the work. I'm personally quite willing to try it without machining, and I can deal with any fallout; but they can't simply hand a car back not knowing if they've fixed it correctly.
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4sevens.com said: ?

Incorrect. Warranty and the optional service agreement are TWO separate matters. As bonnie cited on tesla's page, they are offering a standard 4 years / 50,000 mile warranty BUT that warranty is no good if you don't buy their service plan...
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I don't understand what you are saying or what you think is incorrect. The warranty coverage is dependent on buying the service plan, so I don't see why you'd consider them separate. I suppose you could buy the service plan but still insist on paying for warranty items, but I doubt that will be a popular option. Not buying the service plan but keeping the warranty isn't an option.

The references from bonnie1194 are just the Tesla warranty statement which does not include any mention that you must buy a service plan to enjoy any warranty benefits.
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Larry Chanin said: ?

It is not unreasonable to say that people that are not comfortable in buying the the car shouldn't. George has said this in the past and I didn't find his remark silly or extremely unhelpful.
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Larry, you and heems are absolutely right about this point, although you said it more eloquently than heems seems to be capable of doing so.

So, this statement applies to me, since I am P8995 and haven't received my request to finalize yet. So, I could walk away at this point if I felt this service plan was an undue burden.

However, what irks me is that there are many people who finalized their order and THEN were informed of this new requirement. (I suppose it's not really the cost itself that bothers me, but the stipulations and how this is tied to the warranty.)

Beyond this, let's say I finalize my order in November. What happens if Tesla comes out in December and states internet service will be $50/mo and you have to get internet service for the car to receive software updates and for it to receive warnings (whatever) and if you don't, your warranty may be voided?

I'd flip my lid if I had finalized.

What then?
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4sevens.com said: ?

Incorrect. Warranty and the optional service agreement are TWO separate matters. As bonnie cited on tesla's page, they are offering a standard 4 years / 50,000 mile warranty BUT that warranty is no good if you don't buy their service plan...
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No, the warranty is voided f you don't take care of the car by bringing it in for annual service. There is nothing anywhere that says you must buy a service plan. (FYI, I posted the separate warranty info for the vehicle vs. battery because you were quoting info from the battery spec page only, wondering if the vehicle was even covered. It would be great if you could update your original post, so that it doesn't further confuse new people to the party.)
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I'm amazed that this debate continues when the facts at this point seem pretty clear, at least to me. Every car company I know of requires that the car be maintained according to their maintenance requirements for the warranty to be valid. The difference here is just that this is a new car with new technology that no one else is "currently" certified to maintain "yet". There are two reasons for this. 1) No one else has seen the current market for this to justify the investment and 2)I'm sure Tesla has their hands full just hiring and training their own field staff to support the new Model S. Assuming that Tesla is successful in building the volume that will entice others into a like investment, I see this as not an unusual nor unexpected situation. Kudos to Tesla for believing enough in their future to put this program in place now. Considering everything it looks to me like Tesla is working hard to make this plan have real value to us, even though the reality is that they do have a short term lock on such service.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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bonnie1194 said: ?

No, the warranty is voided f you don't take care of the car by bringing it in for annual service. There is nothing anywhere that says you must buy a service plan.
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Bonnie, I see your point :wink:

How do you explain this statement directly from George?

So, to answer the question clearly about whether failure to do Annual or 12,500 mile Inspections voids your warranty, yes it does.
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As I read this, George is not saying that you have to buy the service plan, but he is saying that you must have your car inspected annually or at every 12,500 miles. As far as I see it, you can buy this service from Tesla for $600/y or prepay it at $475/y. At present, there seems to be no other option (e.g., pay as you go). Therefore, you must buy the service plan at this point to get your car inspected. If you do not get your car inspected, your warranty is voided.
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I'm still of the opinion that what Tesla's doing and what most folk are used to is very different. Tesla is doing what amounts to production machine maintenance, and most people are used to consumer maintenance. If you do production machine style maintenance[SUP]*[/SUP] on a normal ICE car it will cost far more than Tesla's price.

Now I'm not happy about it, and I think that the 12,500 mile interval is ridiculous for an electric car in the 21st century because, to refer to George B's example, the brake pad could be monitored rather than physically inspected, unless of course the owner detected a problem and then a physical examination would be required. (And if that's every car or even a large minority of the cars, then there is a serious problem.) Citro�n had a light in the dash that indicated when the pads were low in 1965 on the DS-21 (maybe they did it even earlier, but I had a 1965 model) and that was almost fifty years ago. (I was still on the original pads at 120,000 miles, so I never actually saw the light.)

I also think it's rather silly that the car warranty and the battery warranty aren't identical (both eight years or 100,000 miles). If you then matched the maintenance, you could at least say that costs were fixed for eight years or 100,000 miles. That would be something that no other car company does (unless some the the exotics do). Of course, you could still whine about what happens after eight years.

[SUP]*[/SUP]production machine style maintenance means maintenance done so that you virtually never experience down time. Parts are replaced when they show the slightest wear, hoses are replaced on a schedule, and software and sometimes hardware upgrades are included. The Cisco example given earlier comes to mind although obviously A Cisco router has far fewer mechanical parts.
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Here is a model I would find acceptable.

Option 1 - Pay $600 at time of service for the first 8 years
Option 2 - Pay $475 a year prepaid at year 1 and year 5 for covering the first * years
Option 3 - I'll bring the car in for inspection at whatever interval Tesla want me to but I'll just pay for consumables and labor to replace those consumables. I suspect this would be next to nothing in year 1-3
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aviators99 said: ?

Tesla has stated that if you don't do an annual service at Tesla (or maybe a Tesla Certified Mechanic, according to you), the warranty will be void. This is illegal for them to require.
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How do you expect them to get away with this act? ! ? !
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kevincwelch said: ?

Bonnie, I see your point :wink:

How do you explain this statement directly from George?

As I read this, George is not saying that you have to buy the service plan, but he is saying that you must have your car inspected annually or at every 12,500 miles. As far as I see it, you can buy this service from Tesla for $600/y or prepay it at $475/y. At present, there seems to be no other option (e.g., pay as you go). Therefore, you must buy the service plan at this point to get your car inspected. If you do not get your car inspected, your warranty is voided.
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And that's exactly what I said. The service plan is not required, you can pay as you go (as current Roadster owners do). George said that the failure to do the annual service is what voids the warranty, not failure to buy a service plan in advance. Pay for the servicing when you get it serviced. We have no disagreement.
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I posted earlier that Toyota allows customer service of the Rav 4 EV! It is the same drive train!! What's the big deal? If customers want to do the basic maintenance why not let them? Give them the check off list they need to accomplish, make the materials available and there you go. That said, I'm getting the service. I would prefer to do it myself, but appreciate the ranger expertice and would prefer to have the best eyes available look over my car.
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efusco said: ?

Indeed. Furthermore, pointing out the hypocrisy of advertising low maintenance then charging more for maintenance than many luxury conventional vehicles just isn't a good business model. ...

I can spout off about low EV maintenance, but then I have to admit it still costs the same...or more than other cars. I'll be able to soften that a bit by saying towing is included--but the obvious retort is 'If it's so reliable, why would you need to tow it, and how often that everyone who buys the car has to prepay for it?" Hard to answer that one.

...
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+1
The biggest problem with what GeorgeB has said is that we have no choice if we don't like it. I signed the MVPA based in part on years of Tesla rhetoric about how EVs are cheaper to maintain. Now they're keeping all the savings and saying if you don't like it you either lose your warranty or lose your deposit. And please don't compare the price to maintenance plans for gassers. EVs have virtually no consumables. It wouldn't be so bad if experienced mechanics like Strider and myself and others were at least offered a chance to do most of it ourselves and just pay a reasonable fee for the computer diagnostics, skipping the consumables, towing and roadside maintenance.

And what an embarrassment to justify it by saying it covers brake pads! Are they joking?
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bonnie1194 said: ?

And that's exactly what I said. The service plan is not required, you can pay as you go (as current Roadster owners do). George said that the failure to do the annual service is what voids the warranty, not failure to buy a service plan in advance. Pay for the servicing when you get it serviced. We have no disagreement.
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Er, right...

For some reason, I didn't completely jot down what was on my mind. I think the crux of the what I am trying to get across is that what you do has to be done through Tesla and you have to pay Tesla to get it, or else your warranty is void. Unless I misread what George wrote, you have to buy the service (either at $600/y or prepaid) from Tesla in order to satisfy the warranty agreement.

I think we agree on most of the semantics, but it's the forced purchase from Tesla and the contingency that is of concern to me.
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kevincwelch said: ?

...
However, what irks me is that there are many people who finalized their order and THEN were informed of this new requirement. (I suppose it's not really the cost itself that bothers me, but the stipulations and how this is tied to the warranty.)

Beyond this, let's say I finalize my order in November. What happens if Tesla comes out in December and states internet service will be $50/mo and you have to get internet service for the car to receive software updates and for it to receive warnings (whatever) and if you don't, your warranty may be voided?

I'd flip my lid if I had finalized.

What then?
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Some of us are flipping our lids. I've been a great salesman for Tesla. Until now.
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kevincwelch said: ?

Unless I misread what George wrote, you have to buy the service (either at $600/y or prepaid) from Tesla in order to satisfy the warranty agreement.
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That's what I got out of it. You either pre-pay or you pay every 12,500 miles.
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hcsharp said: ?

I signed the MVPA based in part on years of Tesla rhetoric about how EVs are cheaper to maintain.
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Although I agree with the notion that Tesla did promote the Model S as being cheaper to own and maintain, I don't think anyone should sign an agreement with anyone or any entity based on a philosophy or a mutual agreement or an expectation of common ground.

What Tesla should be held to is what is on paper at the time of execution. I don't practice contract law; nor do I claim to be an expert in it (so I'll give expert advice). Nevertheless, agreements were made without an announcement of the service plan, the internet connection package, and I am sure other things. I have little argument with Tesla for now announcing a service plan that costs money, but I do take issue with Tesla's requirement that it be purchased (in some fashion, Bonnie) and that in order to save the warranty, you must pay for this service which can be done only at a Tesla service store.

I think everyone has a claim there.
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strider said: ?

Uh, *I'M* planning to do all mechanical work on my Model S. I don't trust Barney Fife either. Doug's brake pad comment is exactly why I do things myself. Replacing rotors every time you replace the brake pads is ridiculous and shows that either Tesla knows nothing about fixing cars or is a blatant money grab (I think they do know how to work on cars so my vote is for the latter). There is a published minimum rotor thickness so as long as the rotor is not at or below the minimum you can keep using it.

Also, the only reason the motor and PEM need maintenance in the Roadster is because they are air-cooled. As I posted earlier I am fine w/ paying for Roadster service because there is actual work to be done and I can see the value of them pulling the parts and cleaning them, etc. But in Model S all that stuff is liquid-cooled. So as long as the coolant isn't leaking out there's nothing to do. At least I can't THINK of anything that would need to be done. If Tesla can tell me otherwise and explain the work they're doing to justify the price then I'll happily pay it. But so far it just sounds like they pulled a number out of their arses (or did a profit gap-analysis) and figured that since it was in line w/ ICE's in the same price range people would pay it because that's what they're used to paying on their current cars.

That being said, and as I posted earlier, not everyone is mechanically inclined or wants to spend an afternoon wrenching on their car. If that's you then buy Tesla's service and enjoy life. But it just doesn't add up for me.
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I think their service plan obviously puts people skilled at taking care of their own cars at a disadvantage but my guess (only a guess) is that most of their Model S customers will not know how to or want to work on their own car other than maybe changing to winter tires for example. It would be nice if they could find a way to accommodate both groups. Maybe charge less for a battery check each year and have you sign something saying you've performed all other service as they say and take responsibility for that.
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George really lit up the thread, eh?

One thing I haven't seen discussed (but with over 200 posts perhaps I have missed it) is the "new features" comment which George added to the end of his post. Regardless of how silly the coverage for things like wiper blades and brake pads sounds, George is also saying that by purchasing a plan that you will be entitled to new features during the life of the plan (up to four years or 50k miles). That seems to be a HUGE value.

Like many posters, I don't think this car is going to need enough "maintenance" to justify much cost at all, but surely there will be new features developed for the Model S over the next few years. If we could move our cars forward to Version 2, 3, etc. for only a few hundred dollars per year then, for me at least, that would override every other consideration concerning George's post and the plans.

Then again, that promise might be, like the sustainable banana leaf decor touted so heavily on the website or the aerodynamic rims or the "options not available in the production model" for us Signature reservation holders, just more fantasy that never happens.
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harry said: ?

George really lit up the thread, eh?

One thing I haven't seen discussed (but with over 200 posts perhaps I have missed it) is the "new features" comment which George added to the end of his post. Regardless of how silly the coverage for things like wiper blades and brake pads sounds, George is also saying that by purchasing a plan that you will be entitled to new features during the life of the plan (up to four years or 50k miles). That seems to be a HUGE value.

Like many posters, I don't think this car is going to need enough "maintenance" to justify much cost at all, but surely there will be new features developed for the Model S over the next few years. If we could move our cars forward to Version 2, 3, etc. for only a few hundred dollars per year then, for me at least, that would override every other consideration concerning George's post and the plans.

Then again, that promise might be, like the sustainable banana leaf decor touted so heavily on the website or the aerodynamic rims or the "options not available in the production model" for us Signature reservation holders, just more fantasy that never happens.
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Fair point, they certainly could have opted to charge for the upgrades/updates

Evan, Via Tapatalk
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bonnie1194 said: ?

No, the warranty is voided f you don't take care of the car by bringing it in for annual service. There is nothing anywhere that says you must buy a service plan. (FYI, I posted the separate warranty info for the vehicle vs. battery because you were quoting info from the battery spec page only, wondering if the vehicle was even covered. It would be great if you could update your original post, so that it doesn't further confuse new people to the party.)
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Ah, I see. The first part seems to be confusion between the service plan, that is, the car has to be serviced every 12 months or 12,500 mi. by Tesla, and the payment schedule for it. The service plan is required to maintain the warranty for the first 4 years/50,000 miles, there are just two ways to pay for it, all in advance or yearly as the service is done.

I don't know what confusion there might be about what I said WRT the battery warranty. The battery warranty is stated to be 8 years, but no announcements have been made as to whether service plans to maintain that warranty after the first 4 years will be made available, what they will cost, and what happens to that warranty with or without such a plan. The rest of the car isn't warrantied past 4 years/50K miles in any case.

One possibility I suppose, is that Tesla will offer a general extended warranty for years 5 to 8 that will also be a required purchase to maintain the battery warranty. That might be pretty expensive, but so far nothing has been said at all about the out years.
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chmod a+wrx said: ?

How do you expect them to get away with this act? ! ? !
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They won't. George apparently misspoke, based on the actual wording of the warranty. As per the law, as long as the service gets done, the warranty isn't voided. You don't have to do it at Tesla.
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I don't have a Roadster, but isn't the price the same or less? And covers more (cheaper Ranger visits and replaced consumables)? I guess I'm not all that upset because I'd been expecting something not too far off from the Roadster's requirements.
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clindsay said: ?

Larry you and I agree 100% on the reality, we are just 180 degrees on the remedy. I believe early adopters that are essential in creating the success of a company should be rewarded, not penalized.
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So you agree with me regarding the reality of the significant risks that Tesla faces, but reject the premise that Tesla needs to take a conservative approach to avoid fatal missteps? Would it really be rewarding the early adopters if Tesla didn't proceed cautiously and went the way of Delorean and Tucker? From my perspective buying a $100,000+ Signature Model S and balking at the buying the $475/year service plan is like buying an expensive house in a flood plane and balking at buying flood insurance.

I'm interested in what you would consider the remedy. Would a $300/year service plan just for Signature reservation holders be a sufficient reward for you?

Larry
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ckessel said: ?

I don't have a Roadster, but isn't the price the same or less? And covers more (cheaper Ranger visits and replaced consumables)? I guess I'm not all that upset because I'd been expecting something not too far off from the Roadster's requirements.
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Price is the same. Ranger service is less.
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aviators99 said: ?

Exactly. That's the illegal part. I'm glad to see that the actual Warranty text reads differently---for Tesla's sake. I was going to prepay the service in any case.
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aviators99 said: ?

They won't. George apparently misspoke, based on the actual wording of the warranty. As per the law, as long as the service gets done, the warranty isn't voided. You don't have to do it at Tesla.
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As you say while it is true that you don't have to have the maintenance performed by Tesla, you do have to have proper maintenance performed. However, as a practical common sense matter, at this stage of the game it might be a bit foolhardy to risk the wellbeing of an expensive car and its warranty by doing it yourself or relying on others. Is that why you plan on buying the Tesla service plan?

Larry
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Tesla just needs to be forthright and release maintenance manuals so that customers are not forced to take their car in to Tesla for service. Why is having a choice a bad thing?

Soon there will be Toyota technicians who are Tesla certified. Does this qualify as a Tesla Certified Mechanic?
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harry said: ?

George really lit up the thread, eh?

One thing I haven't seen discussed (but with over 200 posts perhaps I have missed it) is the "new features" comment which George added to the end of his post. Regardless of how silly the coverage for things like wiper blades and brake pads sounds, George is also saying that by purchasing a plan that you will be entitled to new features during the life of the plan (up to four years or 50k miles). That seems to be a HUGE value.
Click to expand...

I'm not downplaying the value of new features, but they've released the car without features touted during the selling/marketing process. Creep? Somewhere scope creep is happening in their product backlog. Okay, it's great that creep option is coming, what about time based charging? What about text alerts when charging is stopped for whatever reason? Remote cabin heating/cooling? The iOS/Android App? We're stuck using 3G since Wi-Fi is currently not enabled. No hotspot, no tethering? Valet mode? Junior Mode? Offline downloaded/stored maps for Navigation (w/ the Tech Package), automatic keyless door handles, etc. Please don't tell me these things are "all inclusive" with the Annual service prepaid plans.

Future features, time will tell what they plan on developing and a roadmap of planned releases. I'm in the enterprise software world, so I know they disclaimers about what is published may or may not ever happen and anything can change at any time with or without notice, blah blah..

I get it as an early adopters that we're taking deliveries without certain features that are "coming soon, I swear", but don't use this as another marketing tool to promote the advantage of the first year's $600 service. These updates should be free since they were marketed as part of the car. IMO, the first year's service should be free, especially for Sig holders. There's so many bucket list items (lighted vanity visors? sunshade, opportunity consoles, rear seat opportunity consoles) that are still unknown/unaddressed that Tesla should eat crow for the first year and provide the 1st service for free, just my opinion.

Don't get me started about Tesla needs to be profitable, they will be if they take care of their customers and do what's right.

Some have dinged my rep for being "negative", or why I'm complaining with a high res number. I'm merely expressing my opinion because I truly DO care about Tesla and want them to succeed. If many of us early adopters are getting emotional over this, what do you think the early majority and late majority public will respond? Maybe by then the marketing message and sales messages will be aligned with the pricing and Model S expectations. Right now, IMO, they are not.
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Larry Chanin said: ?

From my perspective buying a $100,000+ Signature Model S and balking at the buying the $475/year service plan is like buying an expensive house in a flood plane and balking at buying flood insurance.
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That comparison falls short - The house was advertised as being less prone to flood damage as any other "conventional house".

Larry Chanin said: ?

I'm interested in what you would consider the remedy. Would a $300/year service plan just for Signature reservation holders be a sufficient reward for you?

Larry
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The Model S service plan improves on Roadster service prices (fixed Ranger fee, loaner, roadside assistance, functional sw updates). Putting that aside, a figure lower that Roadster service fee of $600 would have helped greatly here with Tesla's image. So make it $500.

I get a hunch that Tesla is putting us through these pains to strengthen our resolve for the things to come - like annealing steel blades. Some blades will break, but the rest will be harder and sharper than ever.
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VolkerP said: ?

That comparison falls short - The house was advertised as being less prone to flood damage as any other "conventional house".
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And you have to pay more for house insurance. Yes, that's the real problem. People are expecting electric cars to have far less maintenance and Tesla has touted this. People see the Leaf that costs $100/year for maintenance. They don't see any particular differences in the parts that need to be maintained. They wonder why the Model S is six times as expensive. I don't think anyone would have a problem if it included tires (at least the 19" tires). Right now the Model S costs $0.025 cents per mile for electricity ($0.09/kWh), $0.048 for maintenance ($600/12500 miles), and $0.023 for tires (19" tires at $900/4 tires over 40,000 miles) making the cost $0.096/mile. I believe most were thinking maintenance would be in the $0.01-$0.02 cents per mile range. My Prius has actually cost $0.117 per mile for tires, fuel, and maintenance, so yes, the Telsa's operating costs are 18% lower (not counting insurance or other surprise costs Tesla may come up with in the future) but not the 50% less that was expected. It's the 30% gap that is causing the feelings of betrayal. So Tesla has a problem of managing expectations.

VolkerP said: ?

I get a hunch that Tesla is putting us through these pains to strengthen our resolve for the things to come - like annealing steel blades. Some blades will break, but the rest will be harder and sharper than ever.
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I sure hope not. More disappointments will lead to customer dissatisfaction and order cancellation. Then there won't be any more Tesla.
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I have always been cautious with regard to caring for my invested dollars. We've all been to someone's home who just spent a ton of money and botched a DIY project. So here we go. Spend $80K - $100K for a new tech car and then have a 3rd party marginally qualified technician troubleshoot your high tech car so you can maybe save a few hundred bucks a year? Or worse, ignore the minor problem until it becomes major.

Yes, initial warranty should cover most things anyway. I agree. But, hit a big pothole and anything could happen. Wheel alignment alone could cost hundreds. Headlamp install could be $100+. What about wear and tear on your air suspension? That could cost a fortune. Servicing your AC unit, who knows how much. Tesla uses an electrical AC unit unlike the belt driven unit in most cars. Many wear and tear parts are standard, but expensive. Some wear and tear parts may be non-standard.

Everybody wants Tesla to open a service center near them, but many folks balk at contributing to the expense of doing so. It's not just the cost of the building. It's also the investment in equipment, the utilities, the trained staff, and the service vehicles that will tow or deliver your car, including the equipment in the vans. You're kidding yourself if you think that early adopters will avoid paying for those things. Many of the current reservation holders are first time early adopters. Me too. Many folks are probably stretching it financially just to get the car, and want the expense to end there. Got it. Though, as an early adopter, there will be other costs you didn't count on. Tesla is doing their best to make a quality product and build a successful company. Unlike Toyota, their success is not a foregone conclusion.
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DavidM said: ?

I have always been cautious with regard to caring for my invested dollars. We've all been to someone's home who just spent a ton of money and botched a DIY project. So here we go. Spend $80K - $100K for a new tech car and then have a 3rd party marginally qualified technician troubleshoot your high tech car so you can maybe save a few hundred bucks a year? Or worse, ignore the minor problem until it becomes major.

Yes, initial warranty should cover most things anyway. I agree. But, hit a big pothole and anything could happen. Wheel alignment alone could cost hundreds. Headlamp install could be $100+. Servicing your AC unit, who knows how much. Tesla uses an electrical AC unit unlike the belt driven unit in most cars. Many wear and tear parts are standard, but expensive. Some wear and tear parts may be non-standard.

Everybody wants Tesla to open a service center near them, but many folks balk at contributing to the expense of doing so. It's not just the cost of the building. It's also the investment in equipment, the utilities, the trained staff, and the service vehicles that will tow or deliver your car, including the equipment in the vans. You're kidding yourself if you think that early adopters will avoid paying for those things. Many of the current reservation holders are first time early adopters. Me too. Many folks are probably stretching it financially just to get the car, and want the expense to end there. Got it. Though, as an early adopter, there will be other costs you didn't count on. Tesla is doing their best to make a quality product and build a successful company. Unlike Toyota, their success is not a foregone conclusion.
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Exactly. I couldn't agree more. While it sucks having to at least partially pay for the expansion, you're right that the service centers and people who staff them aren't free and we're more than likely helping to pay for the expansion. It also would never cross my mind to take my new Model S to an independent car service place to save $200/year for example. I do understand the people who wish to service parts of their car themselves but would think even then, they would need Tesla for some of the battery/service checks.
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dsm363 said: ?

It also would never cross my mind to take my new Model S to an independent car service place to save $200/year for example.
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Me neither. The problem is one of managing expectations. Tesla hasn't done a very good job in this area. People were expecting much lower costs than an ICE car and found out there is not much difference.
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dsm363 said: ?

Exactly. I couldn't agree more. While it sucks having to at least partially pay for the expansion, you're right that the service centers and people who staff them aren't free and we're more than likely helping to pay for the expansion. It also would never cross my mind to take my new Model S to an independent car service place to save $200/year for example. I do understand the people who wish to service parts of their car themselves but would think even then, they would need Tesla for some of the battery/service checks.
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+1

It's interesting psychology for sure. Absolutely agree we are financing the service expansion, and I firmly believe that the Gen III platform will benefit from the developed infrastructure financed by our efforts. We are already financing that process, subsidizing it if you will, just by virtue of buying the car and consumer beta testing it at this price, with the sig owners bearing the greatest brunt with their loss in 40k of liquid assets for 3+ years, no interest earned.

Why is it interesting psychology? Because we would be far less likely to complain if $1200 bucks were rolled into the price of the car, no line item, and they introduced a pricing schedule of $1200 prepaid maintenance with included ranger fees. Hardly anyone would complain if the whole $2400 were rolled into the cost, and we were "recipients" of a 4 year/50000 mile maintenance plan "free of charge" and "oh yes, unlike our competitors, we will come to you or provide free towing, keep your software and feature set up to date, and provide you with complimentary loaners should you have to bring your Tesla to our service center for >4 hours". Most would laud this as a service triumph, with exception to those who believe that doing your own maintenance is better, cheaper, and more efficient. BMW and other manufacturers have been doing this for years, Toyota just jumped onto the bandwagon with "Toyota Care" and the Korean manufacturers subsidize their service plan costs with high profit margin vehicles and astronomical sales growth.

JC Penney used to offer coupons and sale prices ad nauseum for years, until they realized that their sale prices were still higher in some cases than the big box competitors. So, they rebranded themselves, specialty brands, new advertisements, slashed workforce, and closed a number of stores. The biggest change, however, was the elimination of sale prices almost entirely, with an advertised low regular price, 24/7/365. They hoped people would come back to them in droves so that they could take advantage of full time cheap pricing. Only problem is, the sales did not really pick up. Seems that people are inherently always in search of the cheapest bargain, freebie, or unheard of rock bottom sale price or coupon. Now, they are scrambling to determine if this new brand image is viable for long term growth, or if they should go back to doing sales and coupons.

Here, we are looking for the value of the maintenance plan, some insisting that it would make sense at a cheaper price. Some even made posts affirming their satisfaction if the costs wee hidden somewhat with a subsequently lower maintenance price.

Is the cost higher than would be expected for this type of vehicle? Yes. We can all acknowledge the subsidy we are providing by paying that higher cost.

Is the service worth the price? Half the price? No idea. I don't own a roadster and I have no idea what each service consists of. Can't relate to the Tesla service experience, either. Hardly anyone could tell you before purchasing a BMW what their service really consists of either. I do feel, though, that I really overpaid for that maintenance plan, given that probably about $2000 was rolled into the price, and I received about 4 oil changes, one set of wiper blades, a coolant flush and a few minor tidbits before my 4 year maintenance plan expired (I had about 32000 miles at the time). Extending that plan out to 6 years/100k miles would have cost an additional $3200 bucks. Would have been a tragic waste of money. My wife's Land Rover had a 6 month complimentary maintenance plan, covering a whopping 1 oil change. Now, practically every visit to the dealer is a $600 - $1000+ charge, usually to do brakes and rotors, which wear out about every 15k miles on that enormously heavy beast of a car.

I guess I'd be very satisfied if I knew what the Tesla service consisted of that it would take 4 hours to complete. If they went wrong any where, it was in omitting those details. Accepting the subsidy part, I'm in the camp that it's reasonably priced, provided that there is real substance and utility to their comprehensive maintenance evaluation.
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jerry33 said: ?

Me neither. The problem is one of managing expectations. Tesla hasn't done a very good job in this area. People were expecting much lower costs than an ICE car and found out there is not much difference.
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But Jerry, I think there is a huge difference in costs, not just that I was expecting them to be lower but they are almost a factor of 10 higher. For example my last Honda that I bought new. I took it from new to out of warranty in 11 months. During that I spent about $200 on servicing it myself, and during that time I had both warranty work done and recalls preformed with no issues. The same in the S is now going to cost me $1800.

While if the service plan was just expensive, I would go ahead and just get it, and look at it as supporting Tesla, and having a version 1 car really taken care of. BUT, with the way in which they are tying this to the warranty, it makes me not want to get it, and to file a complaint with the FTC. If this where ANY other car company, or if I were not so invested financially and emotionally, I would demand my money back even though I signed my MVPA months ago, and I would walk. If any other company made a decent EV with near the same range as the S, I would probably walk today from Tesla.

If I feel this way today, after having my reservation since day 1, I can't imagine that it's really going to go over well with the general public when trying to sell the next 10k cars after they clear the backlog.

Peter
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bluetinc said: ?

But Jerry, I think there is a huge difference in costs, not just that I was expecting them to be lower but they are almost a factor of 10 higher. For example my last Honda that I bought new. I took it from new to out of warranty in 11 months. During that I spent about $200 on servicing it myself, and during that time I had both warranty work done and recalls preformed with no issues. The same in the S is now going to cost me $1800.
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I think servicing it myself is the key here. You would have spend far more than $200 if you had the dealer perform the service. That's not really comparing apples to apples. Also, from what I've read about the Roadster service, Tesla is doing far more than any car dealer service I've ever been to. I agree that Tesla should say "Here is a list of things the owner can do if they so desire and here is a list where DIY isn't recommended (typically because the equipment needed makes it not cost effective or there is significant danger to the untrained--note it's generally not a good idea for an untrained person to replace a gas tank in an ICE car either)".

Ideally, they should have DIY classes for those interested owners. Even though I'm not a DIY kind of person--don't give a screwdriver to a software guy--I would take the class just to get a better understanding of the car.

Please understand that I'm not disagreeing with you. Tesla indicated that the Model S, and EVs in general, are simpler and would require less maintenance so it's not unreasonable to expect people to be upset when the amount of maintenance is the same as or more than their previous ICE car. Dealer maintenance cost on the Prius isn't much different than the Model S maintenance--I was expecting the Model S to be significantly lower, so I'm not particularly happy about it. However, Model S maintenance is only about 10% of the VW TDI dealer maintenance so had I gone from the TDI directly to the Model S I would be jumping for joy at the reduced maintenance cost.
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strider said: ?

Uh, *I'M* planning to do all mechanical work on my Model S. I don't trust Barney Fife either. Doug's brake pad comment is exactly why I do things myself. Replacing rotors every time you replace the brake pads is ridiculous and shows that either Tesla knows nothing about fixing cars or is a blatant money grab (I think they do know how to work on cars so my vote is for the latter). There is a published minimum rotor thickness so as long as the rotor is not at or below the minimum you can keep using it.
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Doug_G said: ?

I believe they do have sound reasons for that decision. First of all Tesla has small shops and they don't have the ability to machine rotors in-house (heck right now Toronto can't mount tires themselves, although I hear they're getting their own machine). If you shop it out to a third party there are delays, it will cost a good fraction of the price of a new part, and you have no control over the quality of the work. I'm personally quite willing to try it without machining, and I can deal with any fallout; but they can't simply hand a car back not knowing if they've fixed it correctly.
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It's also quite possible that they were cleaning not just brake pads, but rotors as well, and that the issue was perhaps an accumulation of rust due to underuse of the brakes (due to using re-gen).

One other thing about strider's comments about working on the car himself is that while I'm sure he could perform all of the physical work necessary to maintain his Tesla, there are certainly components which contain firmware/diagnostic information/etc.. that need to be reviewed by somebody with the proper equipment and training. The interface between the car's computer, and the car's hardware (i.e. motor etc..) is where things could get missed by an 'at home' maintenance. Steering, drive-by-wire acceleration, air-suspension, etc.., all those things, and more, are all controlled by a computer, and without equipment, there's no way to test them properly.
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Larry Chanin said: ?

So you agree with me regarding the reality of the significant risks that Tesla faces, but reject the premise that Tesla needs to take a conservative approach to avoid fatal missteps? Would it really be rewarding the early adopters if Tesla didn't proceed cautiously and went the way of Delorean and Tucker? From my perspective buying a $100,000+ Signature Model S and balking at the buying the $475/year service plan is like buying an expensive house in a flood plane and balking at buying flood insurance.

I'm interested in what you would consider the remedy. Would a $300/year service plan just for Signature reservation holders be a sufficient reward for you?

Larry
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Just to clear it up, I am p732, not a signature holder, so my car is not 100K+. I do think Sig owners should get something for thy extra ~5K premium especially in light of the odd delivery order that seems to unfolding, but I won�t get in to that. Your comparison to Tesla as a house in a flood plane seems unfortunate. I would like to think we are all smarter than to execute on that purchase, but perhaps you are right and the waters are rising.

I will just say flatly that it is disingenuous of Tesla to:
- Repeatedly say maintenance costs of EVs are lower than ICE vehicles then price maintenance arguably the same/more than many ICE vehicles first 50K service.
- Offer to replace consumables as a benefit when at the 12.5K and 25K these consumables will not need replacing
- Not disclose pricing for the 50K+ service levels. Who knows, each one of us could get a rude awakening with a $5000 a year required service to keep the battery under warranty
- Include the justification that software updates are part of this as well when the car is being delivered feature incomplete
- Expect the people who are making the company possible carry all the weight of making it profitable.

Larry, I am not suggesting they give the first 2500 cars away for free and then go take a dirt nap. I am suggesting that the Tesla share the pain with us. Many of us put our money in ~3 years ago, we took a leap of faith WITH Tesla. We are almost there, but reading the forums you and I know we will all be going through the pains of being beta testers. We are now being asked to pony up cash for that �privilege�

My position is that Tesla needs to reveal the long term costs now and that the maintenance costs of the first 4 years are indeed to high, they need to be lowered. I am already locked in. I have three choices, forfeit my deposit, sell after delivery, or sit back and take what I find to be an unacceptable last minute gouging. I am not going to be silent when I feel I am being taken advantage of.

More and more people exactly like me are being asked to lock in their configs every day with incomplete information; they are all doing this to an orchestra of crickets. In your analogy consider this looking to buy a house and asking if it is in a flood plane and not getting an answer that yes it is until after you have signed the closing paperwork.

At the end of the day I am a person with a family and a budget trying to do the right thing making decisions for my future, I have the backing of me. Tesla is a company with a successful and smart CEO, government loans that are not fully realized, and is public company with many investors. All of this mitigates and spreads the risk. I am more concerned about the risks I am taking than the risks Tesla is taking. I expect a balance between the customer and profitability that I am not seeing.
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By the way, just for comparison I just added up all my BMW service bills (regular and otherwise) for my current car (330 Cd) from 2004 up to now.

All in all I paid exactly 1,229.58 Euro (including 19% VAT), which at current exchange rates of around 1.30 Dollars/Euro makes about 1,600 Dollars over eight years or 200 Dollars per year - and that is all official BMW service, no third party service centers.

So, the Model S for me would be three times as expensive. Low maintenance? Not really.

And as others have pointed out, the "new features" GeorgeB mentioned might turn out to be all those features the Model S was supposed to have in the first place, but which were omitted for the start of production due to some problems or issues.
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This has been stated before, but I'm sure no BMW in the USA (even with free maintenance for 4 years) could be serviced for anywhere near that cheap.

Why the last time I took my 2 year old 335d in they recommended an alignment and an AC service.... Total bill with tax was $436. I'm sure I got hosed but this makes 600$ from Tesla seem not so bad.

AustinPowers said: ?

By the way, just for comparison I just added up all my BMW service bills (regular and otherwise) for my current car (330 Cd) from 2004 up to now.

All in all I paid exactly 1,229.58 Euro (including 19% VAT), which at current exchange rates of around 1.30 Dollars/Euro makes about 1,600 Dollars over eight years or 200 Dollars per year - and that is all official BMW service, no third party service centers.

So, the Model S for me would be three times as expensive. Low maintenance? Not really.

And as others have pointed out, the "new features" GeorgeB mentioned might turn out to be all those features the Model S was supposed to have in the first place, but which were omitted for the start of production due to some problems or issues.
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�

As a counter-example, my wife's BMW 535 has been in the shop perhaps 40 times in the past 5 years, with extensive reworks of the fuel system, the tailgate, and several other pricey repairs -- all covered under either the warranty (bundled into the car's price) or the (expensive) extended warranty I paid for.

Looking at any one individual's ?ex post service costs isn't necessarily a good way of judging the fairness of Tesla's pricing. Even on the $600 a-la-carte fee, there is still a lot of "insurance premium" built into the charge. Most cars will have only a few minor things that need repairing/replacement on a typical visit, but a few will have major issues -- like the micro-crack on the Roadster's frame we've read about.
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What if you drove your Model S into a Tesla Service center at 12k miles? Do you think they would ask if you have a service plan? Would they turn you away if you had not?
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efusco said: ?

Fair point, they certainly could have opted to charge for the upgrades/updates
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How do you know they're not? I thought George was saying it included installation of new features, not necessarily what they charge for the new feature.

ckessel said: ?

I don't have a Roadster, but isn't the price the same or less? And covers more (cheaper Ranger visits and replaced consumables)? I guess I'm not all that upset because I'd been expecting something not too far off from the Roadster's requirements.
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They do far more at a Roadster 12k. It's not uncommon for it to take 6+ hours. The price is justified for the Roadster plus they told me about it before I bought the car. What they have to do at the MS 12.5k is a small fraction of what they have to do at the Roadster 12k.

clindsay said: ?

...<snip>
I will just say flatly that it is disingenuous of Tesla to:
- Repeatedly say maintenance costs of EVs are lower than ICE vehicles then price maintenance arguably the same/more than many ICE vehicles first 50K service.
- Offer to replace consumables as a benefit when at the 12.5K and 25K these consumables will not need replacing
- Not disclose pricing for the 50K+ service levels. Who knows, each one of us could get a rude awakening with a $5000 a year required service to keep the battery under warranty
- Include the justification that software updates are part of this as well when the car is being delivered feature incomplete
- Expect the people who are making the company possible carry all the weight of making it profitable.

My position is that Tesla needs to reveal the long term costs now and that the maintenance costs of the first 4 years are indeed too high, they need to be lowered. I am already locked in. I have three choices, forfeit my deposit, sell after delivery, or sit back and take what I find to be an unacceptable last minute gouging. I am not going to be silent when I feel I am being taken advantage of.
<snip>
Click to expand...

Neither am I and I would encourage others to be vocal as well. I plan to respond to GeorgeB with a personal email, and copy it to my configuration specialist.

AustinPowers said: ?

<snip>
And as others have pointed out, the "new features" GeorgeB mentioned might turn out to be all those features the Model S was supposed to have in the first place, but which were omitted for the start of production due to some problems or issues.
Click to expand...

I won't assume anything until confirmed, but I'm a little worried about this as well. They may charge us for the real new features that haven't been announced yet, and I'm not sure that's unreasonable. Before we all get in a huff about it, we need to get more information.

What should Tesla do about all this? Create a new optional "budget service plan" for half the price, if not less, and eliminate one of the benefits to save face. They could, for example, charge $300/yr to keep your warranty and not include consumables. They could call it the optional "budget" service plan.

BTW, I talked to a service tech today and asked how much work the annual is for the Model S. He said there's not much that has to be done at the 12.5k that is separate from warranty issues. He said it's a lot easier than a Roadster. He did mention that I might have a hard time flushing brake fluid because the only way he knew of to turn off the E-brake, which has a whole separate system, was with the service computer.
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I used to have a 2006 RAV4 that I bought "gently used". Clean CarFax report. The Toyota drove great, ran great, seemed like a good value. Then, I started to feel some vibration in the steering column. I wanted a quick repair by an authorized Toyota service technician, so I took it to my closest Toyota dealership. This was around the same time as all the "unintended acceleration" stories. I've owned Toyotas before. They are relatively cheap to maintain. How bad could it be? The repair required some sort of steering shaft replacement that cost more than $800. Worst part about it was it was deemed normal wear and tear. NOT A WARRANTY REPAIR. So I spent the next 30 minutes arguing with the service manager about what classifies as normal wear and tear. He won. I lost. I paid more than $800.

Bottom line: I don't want to ever have a similar discussion about what is, and what is not covered with a service manager. I can budget a "known" fixed cost per year for maintenance. I don't know how to budget for surprises. Incidentally, the following month I took the car to a local (Quick Lube) "type of place" for an oil change and filter. I figured it should cost $40. I immediately learned that this car required special synthetic oil (as printed in the manual). My once yearly oil & filter change was over $100. I declined the recommended replacement of the air filter for an additional cost.
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VolkerP said: ?

That comparison falls short - The house was advertised as being less prone to flood damage as any other "conventional house".
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Hi Volker,

No doubt my analogy failed, :redface: but the point that I was attempting to make is that when compared to the competition from a financial viability perspective Tesla is much more prone to "flood damage". It's currently in the red and burning through cash. I feel by purchasing the service plan it not only benefits my car, but it also serves to help ensure Tesla's continued viability in the event of unforeseen financial "floods".

The Model S service plan improves on Roadster service prices (fixed Ranger fee, loaner, roadside assistance, functional sw updates). Putting that aside, a figure lower that Roadster service fee of $600 would have helped greatly here with Tesla's image. So make it $500.
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From my perspective by permitting me to purchase 4 years of service at a discount the cost to me is now reduced to $475. If I'm not mistaken Roadster owners weren't offered such a deal.

Larry
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mnx said: ?

This has been stated before, but I'm sure no BMW in the USA (even with free maintenance for 4 years) could be serviced for anywhere near that cheap. Why the last time I took my 2 year old 335d in they recommended an alignment and an AC service.... Total bill with tax was $436. I'm sure I got hosed but this makes 600$ from Tesla seem not so bad.
Click to expand...

The reason for this is simple. Europeans don't let themselves get scammed as often as Americans do. Americans are stoopid.

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Larry Chanin said: ?

Hi Volker,

No doubt my analogy failed, :redface: but the point that I was attempting to make is that when compared to the competition from a financial viability perspective Tesla is much more prone to "flood damage". It's currently in the red and burning through cash. I feel by purchasing the service plan it not only benefits my car, but it also serves to help ensure Tesla's continued viability in the event of unforeseen financial "floods".
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That's fine if you want to volunteer to make contributions to Tesla but it should not be required and forced upon everybody else. Investors are responsible for making sure the company is profitable. Consumers are responsible for deciding if the price is too high. In this case many of us feel the price is too high but we no longer have any choice but to get soaked. I feel somewhat taken advantage of. You can't on the one hand sell a car on it's merits of cheaper maintenance, and then rob the customer of all the savings after you sell it.

I already made my contribution when I bought my Roadster and was happy to do so. Never in that experience did I feel misled. And to be honest, I've been very impressed with the over-the-top quality of service that I've received. This time it's a different experience and I'm not sitting quiet.
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hcsharp said: ?

I already made my contribution when I bought my Roadster and was happy to do so. Never in that experience did I feel misled. And to be honest, I've been very impressed with the over-the-top quality of service that I've received. This time it's a different experience and I'm not sitting quiet.
Click to expand...

An exotic sports car has a different set of cost expectations than does a premium sedan.
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The link to the "Service" page which George references in his post is now a "Dead End". Does anyone know where the service plan info has been moved?
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harry said: ?

The link to the "Service" page which George references in his post is now a "Dead End". Does anyone know where the service plan info has been moved?
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I fixed the link in the OP. Here it is again: http://www.teslamotors.com/service

(OMG, I edited GeorgeB's post! Is this going to affect my delivery date?)
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Try this link: http://www.teslamotors.com/service

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NigelM said: ?

I fixed the link in the OP. Here it is again: http://www.teslamotors.com/service

(OMG, I edited GeorgeB's post! Is this going to affect my delivery date?)
Click to expand...

I'm telling.
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I dont think the current maintenance agreement is a good approach. The standard warranty for the Model S is now $600.00 a year. This car can alert Tesla if any major problem is detected and these issues should be covered under the standard warranty. I understand that Tesla needs to generate revenue to offset their infrastructure, but this is not the way to do it. If yearly inspections are needed for early detection of design or material defects, they should be free of charge during the warranty period. A yearly fee would be warranted after the standard warranty expires. There are very few wear items on the S and the biggest being brakes should only cost $200.00 at the most every 2-3 years, probably less due to regen. The bug fixes should be unlimited and feature additions should be free for the warranty period, with reasonable cost thereafter. One of the biggest selling points of getting this car is to reduce total cost of ownership. The addition of yearly fees seems petty and unreasonable for such a ground-breaking vehicle.

I am a reservation/stock holder and truly believe his company is the key to so many problems. This issue has really left me disappointed and hope that Tesla will find another way around it. The other company Mr Blankenship referenced always made a point of admitting when it was wrong. I hope Tesla has the same ability for introspection.
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clindsay said: ?

...

I will just say flatly that it is disingenuous of Tesla to:
- Repeatedly say maintenance costs of EVs are lower than ICE vehicles then price maintenance arguably the same/more than many ICE vehicles first 50K service.
- Offer to replace consumables as a benefit when at the 12.5K and 25K these consumables will not need replacing
- Not disclose pricing for the 50K+ service levels. Who knows, each one of us could get a rude awakening with a $5000 a year required service to keep the battery under warranty
- Include the justification that software updates are part of this as well when the car is being delivered feature incomplete
- Expect the people who are making the company possible carry all the weight of making it profitable.

Larry, I am not suggesting they give the first 2500 cars away for free and then go take a dirt nap. I am suggesting that the Tesla share the pain with us. Many of us put our money in ~3 years ago, we took a leap of faith WITH Tesla. We are almost there, but reading the forums you and I know we will all be going through the pains of being beta testers. We are now being asked to pony up cash for that �privilege�
...
Click to expand...

Aside from the obvious exaggeration of $5000 I would have a problem trying to argue against this. Well put.
�

If Tesla needs the capital to fund the infrastructure growth, give us some reassurance. Provide an 8 year /100K or 8 year/200K service and warranty plan at a more discounted rate. I'd probably buy it. Tesla probably doesn't know what the service and repair costs will be in years 5-8, it could be the most reliable car ever built, or it could be very expensive. If Tesla is in year 5, we'd have the S, X, Gen III rolling out, 130K+ cars on the road.

The first 5000-10000 cars that helped finance the company out of the red will offset any cost differences by all the new cars and service plans being sold (hint: raise the price and roll the service plan into the price). By then, they should have a more accurate view of costs and maintenance associated with the vehicle and they would have re-engineered certain parts to better longevity.

I keep my cars for awhile, I don't go out and buy the latest and greatest every 3-4 years. If it costs $600 per 12.5K miles or 12 months, Tesla has brought fear, uncertainty and doubt into my analytical brain on the costs beyond 4yrs and 50K miles. We're essentially beta testing a new platform and costs are unknown. Tesla can either play it safe, overprice the service to worst case scenarios, or they can share the risk and know future volume of cars will offset any losses.
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Larry Chanin said: ?

From my perspective buying a $100,000+ Signature Model S and balking at the buying the $475/year service plan is like buying an expensive house in a flood plane and balking at buying flood insurance.
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No, it's more like buying a house in a flood plain that has been extensively marketed as being "designed for floods with tons of improvements to withstand flood waters" and then being told that you have to buy flood insurance and that it costs the same or more than to insure a regular house. And in Tesla's case those two statements would come in the same blog post. Did anyone actually read Joost's post before it was sent out? And if so, no one thought it was weird to say, Model S requires way less maintenance than an ICE because it has fewer moving parts and then a few lines later advertise a maintenance plan that costs more than I've ever spent on an ICE for the first for 4 years of ownership?

Edit: Others posted similar thoughts - should have read to the end of the thread before posting :redface:

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hcsharp said: ?

BTW, I talked to a service tech today and asked how much work the annual is for the Model S. He said there's not much that has to be done at the 12.5k that is separate from warranty issues. He said it's a lot easier than a Roadster. He did mention that I might have a hard time flushing brake fluid because the only way he knew of to turn off the E-brake, which has a whole separate system, was with the service computer.
Click to expand...

Hmm. So the e-brake should be able to be disengaged by turning the car on and putting the car into neutral (or perhaps it has a "Tow Mode" like the Roadster). And then even though you can't exercise the e-brake w/o a service computer you should be able to use a pressure bleeder on the reservoir to push fluid through the system. Interesting stuff. This is why I want to do my own maintenance!
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Regardless of "fairness," the "required maintenance for additional fee" policy is really dumb marketing and reveals an error in pricing. They should have been absolutely silent on this issue, other than to announce the cost of service at first service interval. They should bump price a bit next year and justify it, in part, by bundling in 50K miles of free maintenance in order to match best-in-class BMW policy. At that time, they should retroactively give the service package for free to all 85KwH cars previously sold and half price for 60kwH. Everyone is happy.

In contrast, they dumbly poked their best friends (early adopters) in the eye with a sharp stick.
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clindsay said: ?

I will just say flatly that it is disingenuous of Tesla to:
- Repeatedly say maintenance costs of EVs are lower than ICE vehicles then price maintenance arguably the same/more than many ICE vehicles first 50K service.
- Offer to replace consumables as a benefit when at the 12.5K and 25K these consumables will not need replacing
- Not disclose pricing for the 50K+ service levels. Who knows, each one of us could get a rude awakening with a $5000 a year required service to keep the battery under warranty
- Include the justification that software updates are part of this as well when the car is being delivered feature incomplete
- Expect the people who are making the company possible carry all the weight of making it profitable.
Click to expand...

I agree.

If unaltered, I plan to request that my consumables be replaced at every inspection, regardless of whether they need replacement. After all, I will have paid for this service.

The still as of yet unpublished warranty stipulations beyond 4 years and cost of internet service have me hovering over my "defer button" whenever it arrives.
�

I could write a book about how I feel about this mandatory maintenance instead I decided to ask for my order to be cancelled. Tesla rep emailed if you really can't stomach the cost of servicing model S and want to walk away from your reservation give me a call...Sadly after waiting all this time I cancelled.
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polera257 said: ?

I could write a book about how I feel about this mandatory maintenance instead I decided to ask for my order to be cancelled. Tesla rep emailed if you really can't stomach the cost of servicing model S and want to walk away from your reservation give me a call...Sadly after waiting all this time I cancelled.
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I am curious: was the rep actually that rude?
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polera257 said: ?

I could write a book about how I feel about this mandatory maintenance instead I decided to ask for my order to be cancelled. Tesla rep emailed if you really can't stomach the cost of servicing model S and want to walk away from your reservation give me a call...Sadly after waiting all this time I cancelled.
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If the base price had been $2000 more and Tesla gave 4 years free maintenance, would that be any different to you?
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Was having a drink after work with a very level-headed colleague (who drives a Toyota Corolla with almost 200,000 miles on it), and mentioned that Tesla was looking to charge me $2,400 for 4 years/50,000 miles -- which covers everything that might go wrong for whatever reason, including towing, and provide service at my house whenever possible. Without missing a beat, he said "that's a no-brainer."

Just a data point from a neutral third party.
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Robert.Boston said: ?

Was having a drink after work with a very level-headed colleague (who drives a Toyota Corolla with almost 200,000 miles on it), and mentioned that Tesla was looking to charge me $2,400 for 4 years/50,000 miles -- which covers everything that might go wrong for whatever reason, including towing, and provide service at my house whenever possible. Without missing a beat, he said "that's a no-brainer."

Just a data point from a neutral third party.
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Interesting way of looking at it.

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I've brought this up before but for those living close to a service center, it doesn't have to be $600/year if you prepay and don't need unlimited Ranger visits. It can be $475/year which is a little better.
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dsm363 said: ?

I've brought this up before but for those living close to a service center, it doesn't have to be $600/year if you prepay and don't need unlimited Ranger visits. It can be $475/year which is a little better.
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So, I've asked myself the question (living about 8 miles from the service center -- in busy, busy Chicago), would it be worth it to me for $125/y to have Tesla come out to me for the annual service? Could it possibly be done that way if you live near a service center (that is, have Rangers come out for the annual service)?
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kevincwelch said: ?

So, I've asked myself the question (living about 8 miles from the service center -- in busy, busy Chicago), would it be worth it to me for $125/y to have Tesla come out to me for the annual service? Could it possibly be done that way if you live near a service center (that is, have Rangers come out for the annual service)?
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You could but I'd just take it there if you are able to since they will do your wheel alignment in the service center but not at your house.
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Couldn't the ranger just drive it to the service center and bring it back when done?
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Robert.Boston said: ?

Was having a drink after work with a very level-headed colleague (who drives a Toyota Corolla with almost 200,000 miles on it), and mentioned that Tesla was looking to charge me $2,400 for 4 years/50,000 miles -- which covers everything that might go wrong for whatever reason, including towing, and provide service at my house whenever possible. Without missing a beat, he said "that's a no-brainer."

Just a data point from a neutral third party.
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You might have left out some key pieces of data when you asked the question. What my level headed friends say to paying $2400 extra for a car that was marketed as basically not really needing traditional maintenance at all, is being delivered feature incomplete and the manufacurer will not supply long term service cost information for the 50K+ mile mark. Their answer is the same, it is a no-brainer, don't do it.

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polera257 said: ?

I could write a book about how I feel about this mandatory maintenance instead I decided to ask for my order to be cancelled. Tesla rep emailed if you really can't stomach the cost of servicing model S and want to walk away from your reservation give me a call...Sadly after waiting all this time I cancelled.
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Just for clarification. Were you locked in and had signed and turned in the MVPA or did you just have a deposit down in the car?
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Robert.Boston said: ?

Was having a drink after work with a very level-headed colleague (who drives a Toyota Corolla with almost 200,000 miles on it), and mentioned that Tesla was looking to charge me $2,400 for 4 years/50,000 miles -- which covers everything that might go wrong for whatever reason, including towing, and provide service at my house whenever possible. Without missing a beat, he said "that's a no-brainer."

Just a data point from a neutral third party.
Click to expand...

I call BS on that story. You didn't even ask a valid question. The maintenance fee doesn't cover everything that goes wrong on the car. The warranty covers most of that. Is your friend aware of the minimal maintenance requirements for EVs? I guarantee you he didn't spend anywhere near $2,400 in the first 50k. My wife had a Toyota Corolla and put 160,000 miles on it in 7 years. She spent less than $2,000 on that car including all the oil changes, brake jobs, and all the other maintenance and consumables including wipers and coolant, towing, etc. (thank you Quicken). Not including tires. That's it. She sold it last year for half of what she paid for it.

Now she's being asked to pay for service at nearly 4x that rate for a car that's billed as being far cheaper to maintain. How many drinks did your friend have before you sprung the question?
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ckessel said: ?

If the base price had been $2000 more and Tesla gave 4 years free maintenance, would that be any different to you?
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I didn't cancel, but for me that makes a huge difference. For me it's more about the principle than the dollar amount, on this one.

Same story with the "just list the real price" without the $7,500 gymnastics.
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Yes actually that is exactly what was sent in the email. I was asked not to disclose much information so I will not post the name of the rep. My configuration was just about 90,000, went pretty much for everything so you can see why I am sad about dropping out. I was scheduled to have the car Nov/Dec. I would not have any problem taking my vehicle in for a check up and paying a small labor charge but felt this was being shoved down my throat. Wish they would have let me do that but was told NO WAY. Can not believe Tesla would do this, never expected it and it is only on principal that I asked for my money back. I lose out over my principals. I had faith in Tesla and learned a lesson once again.

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ckessel said: ?

If the base price had been $2000 more and Tesla gave 4 years free maintenance, would that be any different to you?
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It is not about the money. I want the freedom to chose what I do with my vehicle and if I chose to maintain it outside of Tesla I should not be punished by no longer having a warranty. I understand this is new technology and if certain items need to be checked by Tesla fine. Set up a fee schedule for only those items and let me decide what works best for me. Perhaps the all inclusive plan would have been best but I was not given an option. The way I took it was pay 600.00 per year pay up front for 4 years with a discount or have no warranty no other option. When I was told that I realized I would be purchasing a 90k car without a warranty, would you do that? I felt it was too risky
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polera257 said:

Tesla rep emailed if you really can't stomach the cost of servicing model S and want to walk away from your reservation give me a call...
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kevincwelch said: ?

I am curious: was the rep actually that rude?
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I suppose it's how you interpret the tone, but I don't see that as a rude statement.
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With time I'm sure you'll forget about this bad experience. If you continue to hang out the on the forums, I bet you'll be back in the Model S queue within the next 12 months (this time with service included in the price).

polera257 said: ?

Yes actually that is exactly what was sent in the email. I was asked not to disclose much information so I will not post the name of the rep. My configuration was just about 90,000, went pretty much for everything so you can see why I am sad about dropping out. I was scheduled to have the car Nov/Dec. I would not have any problem taking my vehicle in for a check up and paying a small labor charge but felt this was being shoved down my throat. Wish they would have let me do that but was told NO WAY. Can not believe Tesla would do this, never expected it and it is only on principal that I asked for my money back. I lose out over my principals. I had faith in Tesla and learned a lesson once again.

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It is not about the money. I want the freedom to chose what I do with my vehicle and if I chose to maintain it outside of Tesla I should not be punished by no longer having a warranty. I understand this is new technology and if certain items need to be checked by Tesla fine. Set up a fee schedule for only those items and let me decide what works best for me. Perhaps the all inclusive plan would have been best but I was not given an option. The way I took it was pay 600.00 per year pay up front for 4 years with a discount or have no warranty no other option. When I was told that I realized I would be purchasing a 90k car without a warranty, would you do that? I felt it was too risky
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At first, I was somewhat neutral about the service plan. Those on these forums make a good point about new technology, cheap plan to cover just about anything, blah, blah. I can also see the other side of the argument; bait and switch, "low maintenance" contradictions, etc. But now, the more I've thought about it, I think this is a bad move by Tesla.

The $ may not be a big deal for most of the "ballers" ponying up for the top of the line Model S (no offense to anyone here) during the first year, but eventually, those guys will have their cars and what Telsa will be left with is a good mix of MSP's and all those downstream of that trim level. Those in my financial strata that still choose to buy the car (I'm not even considering those that will/already have cancelled because of this) will do so by offsetting the service plan cost by removing options. Either way, Tesla will get their $2400 per car but in the latter scenario, they will be left with a few thousand stripped-down versions of the Model S on the road for all the world to see. This would have a significant impact on the Tesla brand, IMO. And trying to backtrack on requiring this service after that point would cause such an uproar I'm not sure they could recover from.

Tesla really needs to think this through....
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Another Chas agrees with you Chas! I'm in configuration limbo for a month now. With my daughter heading 250 miles to Univ.Michigan next year I've got to upgrade from the 40 to the superchargable 60kWh battery. Living 10 miles west of Chicago, service becomes a $1900 additional expense.
I can't even think about configuring 65k+ for a car unless my TSLA stock clears $39....
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polera257 said: ?

It is not about the money. I want the freedom to chose what I do with my vehicle and if I chose to maintain it outside of Tesla I should not be punished by no longer having a warranty.
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If it's not about the money, I think this sounds like a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face. I understand standing on principal, but I'm not sure what your goal is here. Tesla won't miss one customer, you're the only one that loses out. If you think Tesla should be punished with massive cancellations, then you're basically rooting for their bankruptcy. Are you hoping folks like you will walk the razor's edge and be just enough to convince Tesla to change, but not so much that it kills Tesla?

hcsharp said: ?

IMy wife had a Toyota Corolla and put 160,000 miles on it in 7 years. She spent less than $2,000 on that car including all the oil changes, brake jobs, and all the other maintenance and consumables including wipers and coolant, towing, etc. (thank you Quicken).
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I spent $2000 in just last year (maybe it was the year before) on my RX8. I'm not sure what anecdotes of extreme cases show...
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On the one hand, the whole maintenance thing was a big screw up by Tesla. On the other hand, I am scratching my head about buyers who are so on the fence that this change would make the car unaffordable. I wonder how they are valuing the "viability risk" that is embedded in the car. This dwarfs the maintenance costs. If you can "afford" the risk that Tesla goes bust in a year or two, you can afford the new maintenance plan....

If the maintenance plan busts the budget, you probably can't afford the viability risk inherent in being an early adopter...

If anyone thinks this risk is zero, I am happy to buy some cheap TSLA puts from you to defray your maintenance costs (free money for you, right?).
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Chas F said: ?

Either way, Tesla will get their $2400 per car but in the latter scenario, they will be left with a few thousand stripped-down versions of the Model S on the road for all the world to see. This would have a significant impact on the Tesla brand, IMO.
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How does someone tell if it's a stripped down version with the Model S? There's no visual external indication except for the Perf and that's pretty subtle.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the rest of your post, I'm just not sure how the brand gets devalued without fairly close inspection (such as knowing the battery size).
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ckessel said: ?

How does someone tell if it's a stripped down version with the Model S? There's no visual external indication except for the Perf and that's pretty subtle.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the rest of your post, I'm just not sure how the brand gets devalued without fairly close inspection (such as knowing the battery size).
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I'd agree. Sure, less "gee whiz" features to show off to your friends, but it's not like they're that noticeable anyway. A smaller battery? I'm sure people will realize there are larger versions. Weaker stereo and no offline maps? Not many will notice this either. Air suspension? Nope. I REALLY disagree with how Tesla has handled this, but for markedly different reasons.
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chrisn said: ?

Regardless of "fairness," the "required maintenance for additional fee" policy is really dumb marketing and reveals an error in pricing. They should have been absolutely silent on this issue, other than to announce the cost of service at first service interval. They should bump price a bit next year and justify it, in part, by bundling in 50K miles of free maintenance in order to match best-in-class BMW policy. At that time, they should retroactively give the service package for free to all 85KwH cars previously sold and half price for 60kwH. Everyone is happy.

In contrast, they dumbly poked their best friends (early adopters) in the eye with a sharp stick.
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Well what about all the people who got in line early this year that are going to get their cars in 2013? We would get stuck with a price increase that we could do nothing about. That would be much worse than charging BMW/MB maintenance rates.
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This move would have had less consequence if Tesla was sold out for a few years. The problem is, there aren't enough reservations to fill an entire years of production. To make matters worse, all these potential customers word of mouth sales will be affected. This leads to Tesla having to advertise( not cheap) in order to sell cars. Jumping over dollars to pick up nickels NEVER works.
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qwk said: ?

This move would have had less consequence if Tesla was sold out for a few years. The problem is, there aren't enough reservations to fill an entire years of production. To make matters worse, all these potential customers word of mouth sales will be affected. This leads to Tesla having to advertise( not cheap) in order to sell cars. Jumping over dollars to pick up nickels NEVER works.
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What do you think the impact will be of bad word of mouth versus cars on the road? I know in previous threads we've discussed the sales impact of the car on the road and buyers showing it off to friends. I really doubt owners are going to show off the car and then say "Yea, but the $2000 maintenance sucks, don't buy one." It's only folks like that drop out that will be giving bad word of mouth. Do you think that'll trump the impact of cars on the road?
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polera257 said: ?

It is not about the money. I want the freedom to chose what I do with my vehicle and if I chose to maintain it outside of Tesla I should not be punished by no longer having a warranty. I understand this is new technology and if certain items need to be checked by Tesla fine. Set up a fee schedule for only those items and let me decide what works best for me. Perhaps the all inclusive plan would have been best but I was not given an option. The way I took it was pay 600.00 per year pay up front for 4 years with a discount or have no warranty no other option. When I was told that I realized I would be purchasing a 90k car without a warranty, would you do that? I felt it was too risky
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+1. I feel the service thread has been the most anti-tesla from the get go. How can someone say that if you DON'T come in at your 1st year or 12,500 miles, you can say bye-bye to your warranty. WTF?

According to Joost's blog:

During your scheduled annual inspection (or after 12,500 miles), a service technician will spend several hours with your vehicle, conducting a full assessment of things such as brakes, tires, suspension, steering, lighting, and safety components. These scheduled check-ups make sure your Model S is running at its best.
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Seriously, tires, brakes, lighting? for several hours? And if miss this service and my 17" touchscreen goes on the blink, I'm screwed even though you would not have inspected it during the service?

Although I don't agree on the price, I'll grudgingly pay it. But the principle of if you don't pay or get it checked every yr or 12.5K miles, then your $90K car has absolutely no warranty and poof, you want to be left with $10000 PEM replacement if something goes wrong? I agree that the car needs to serviced / maintained, they should have simply have raised the price and included the warranty/service plan. Then I wouldn't have these sour feelings being blackmailed on the service plan.
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Epiphany: Referral program. Refer a friend and you both get half off prepaid four-year maintenance. Refer two, maintenance is free for you. Everyone happy.

qwk said: ?

This move would have had less consequence if Tesla was sold out for a few years. The problem is, there aren't enough reservations to fill an entire years of production. To make matters worse, all these potential customers word of mouth sales will be affected. This leads to Tesla having to advertise( not cheap) in order to sell cars. Jumping over dollars to pick up nickels NEVER works.
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ckessel said: ?

How does someone tell if it's a stripped down version with the Model S? There's no visual external indication except for the Perf and that's pretty subtle.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the rest of your post, I'm just not sure how the brand gets devalued without fairly close inspection (such as knowing the battery size).
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The real easy way to well if a car is what it looks like is to look at the exhaust. ... Damnit my system to determine if M3s, M5s, and AMGs are real doesn't work on the Tesla. Like the guy in a M3 badged 3 series with single exhaust, and a cherry-bomb on the end tried to race me last night. It obviously wasn't real when I downshifted my GTI to 2nd.

And as for car devaluation (@Chas F) I don't think it will. $60k is a bunch to spend on a car, so it won't get devalued much. And as with any BMW or MB all you need is an AMG badge, or M3 to fool about 95% of the public. And of that 95% about 90% don't care what the car cost. See *air-quote* M3 *end air quote* story above. I mean I can buy a Challenger for $25k or $50k+ and other than wheels they look pretty much the same. Same thing for a Camaro, you get some stripes, a spoiler, and rims. All of which are easy to do aftermarket.
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Yep, those extra two or three exhaust pipes make all the difference!

It's funny that some guys remove the badge to be "stealth", but anybody who would care, could identify the car immediately anyway.
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ckessel said: ?

What do you think the impact will be of bad word of mouth versus cars on the road? I know in previous threads we've discussed the sales impact of the car on the road and buyers showing it off to friends. I really doubt owners are going to show off the car and then say "Yea, but the $2000 maintenance sucks, don't buy one." It's only folks like that drop out that will be giving bad word of mouth. Do you think that'll trump the impact of cars on the road?
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It's not only owners that drop out. People will directly ask owners about maintenance and we'll be forced into the "theoretically maintenance is less, but Tesla does a lot, even though they advertised it takes less and then they charge a lot for that extra service. How much? Oh, around $600/yr...but you get windsheild wipers!"

Also, the automobile rags are going to have a hey day with this...think not, you're crazy. They'll pick on every little detail. "EV gas savings lost due to high maintenance costs!"
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> steering shaft replacement that cost more than $800 [David M]

OR, take it to an independent shop to rebuild unit, replace with a rebuilt unit, or replace with 'known good' used unit from parts yard. Many choices for popular cars. Tesla, not so many.
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teslamotorclub

Thứ Năm, 1 tháng 12, 2016

Warranty/Servicing - official Tesla responses (incl GeorgeB) part 1

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