Thứ Năm, 1 tháng 12, 2016

Warranty/Servicing - official Tesla responses (incl GeorgeB) part 4

  • Oct 21, 2012
    jerry33
    I'm not really disagreeing with you here. The price is likely fair for what they intend to do, but the perception is that it's high because the actual work hasn't been spelled out and because it's supposed to be a low maintenance car. Not everyone who has ordered a Model S has ever or would ever even consider purchasing a BMW, Mercedes, or Jaguar so the service price for them wouldn't be applicable. $600/year is what my current car has cost, including tires, over 140,000 miles (that's about 16,000 miles per year average). Without tires, about $400/year. If I drive the same distance in the Model S that works out to $633/year (with the $495 prepaid plan). Of course, I intend to drive the Model S a lot more :)
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  • Oct 21, 2012
    Norbert
    It's just $475 ! ;) (unless you are adding coffee & snacks while waiting)
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  • Oct 21, 2012
    Chregu
    I'm still wondering what kind of oil you're using in the USA... or what's wrong with either our european or your motors :D

    I chance my motor-oil every 20'000 miles, my car wants it like this. In addition, 1l every 10'000 miles
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  • Oct 21, 2012
    bluetinc
    Chregu, I can't see where you are from, but perhaps this is a units difference? You have both miles and l in your quote. Do you mean 20,000 miles or 20,000 km?

    Peter

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  • Oct 21, 2012
    swegman
    I agree. My MB oil change requirement is once a year or 13,000 miles, which ever comes first. Toyota specifies oil changes at 10,000 mile intervals in the latest generation Prius. Lexus specifies oil changes at 7500 mile intervals.

    It used to be recommended to change oil at 3 month/3,000 mile intervals. That was many, many years ago. Oil has improved, as have filters and engines. I don't think it is necessary to change oil every 3,000 miles anymore, especially if you use Mobil 1 oil.
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  • Oct 21, 2012
    jerry33
    Bear in mind that there are now many kinds of Mobil1 oil and not all of them are suitable for long change intervals. The best oils meet both ACEA A5/B5 and ILSAC GF5. If they meet these standards it will say so on the bottle. Purchasing oil is a lot like purchasing bread. The front of the bread will say all natural, multi grain, whole wheat, etc. but if the first ingredient isn't 100% whole wheat, or some other whole grain., then it's just white bread. Oil will say things like long lasting, synthetic, etc. but if it doesn't meet the highest standards, it's not what you should be using for long change intervals.
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  • Oct 21, 2012
    spatterso911
    Best analogy for oil I've seen yet.
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  • Oct 22, 2012
    Chregu
    I mean 20'000 miles, roughly rated from the 30'000km intervall given by my VW scirocco
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  • Oct 29, 2012
    Sig698
    Not to add to the confusion, but my delivery specialist seemed VERY certain that service costs were covered for the first 4 years of ownership. When he told me this, I asked him if it wasn't in fact $600 for every year/12k miles, and specifically mentioned that was only after the first 4 years. I won't count on the free servicing as of now, though. The website seems fairly clear about the costs, but perhaps this is one of the signature perks they had in mind?
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  • Oct 29, 2012
    dsm363
    That would be good news. Maybe they'll include it in the Signatures but drop the price for everyone else.
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  • Nov 7, 2012
    Stealth MD
    Servicing

    Can someone please explain to me how Tesla can justify charging $600 for an annual/every 12k miles maintence fee to service the car when the whole advantage to owning an electric vehicle is suppose to be virtually maintence free?

    There's no reason for an oil change, spark plug replacement, timing belts or anything else that's in a conventional gasoline or hybrid vehicle. Even though Tesla mentions it's for their "concierge service" and the fact that they "inspect" the wheel bearings, and run diagnostics, I don't think it's fair for Tesla to basically advertise that their vehicles are maintence-free compared to their gasoline competitors and then REQUIRE you to bring the car in for "maintence" otherwise it voids the warrant. Also, if you bring the car in to a third party for maintence, it also voids the warrenty; the car MUST be serviced at a Tesla Service Center.

    For comparison purposes, another all-electric vehicle, the Nissan Leaf, does not have a maintence schedule as strict as this. All the Leaf requires is basic replacement of wear and tear items (tires, wipers, etc.), but they definatley don't require you to bring the car in for service. I think this is really ridiculous. What are your thoughts on this?
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  • Nov 7, 2012
    gg_got_a_tesla
  • Nov 7, 2012
    Stealth MD
    Can someone please explain to me how Tesla can justify charging $600 for an annual/every 12k miles maintence fee to service the car when the whole advantage to owning an electric vehicle is suppose to be virtually maintence free?

    There's no reason for an oil change, spark plug replacement, timing belts or anything else that's in a conventional gasoline or hybrid vehicle. Even though Tesla mentions it's for their "concierge service" and the fact that they "inspect" the wheel bearings, and run diagnostics, I don't think it's fair for Tesla to basically advertise that their vehicles are maintence-free compared to their gasoline competitors and then REQUIRE you to bring the car in for "maintence" otherwise it voids the warrant. Also, if you bring the car in to a third party for maintence, it also voids the warrenty; the car MUST be serviced at a Tesla Service Center.

    For comparison purposes, another all-electric vehicle, the Nissan Leaf, does not have a maintence schedule as strict as this. All the Leaf requires is basic replacement of wear and tear items (tires, wipers, etc.), but they definatley don't require you to bring the car in for service. I think this is really ridiculous. What are your thoughts on this?
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  • Nov 7, 2012
    Mycroft
    I believe there are two reasons for the charge, as stated earlier in the thread:

    1. Tesla doesn't have enough data on their technology, so they would rather err on the side of conservative wrt maintenance.

    2. Tesla has to roll out lots of maintenance centers around the world, virtually from scratch. That's going to be very expensive. They would rather amortize this cost into the maintenance plans and allow the auto sales to have a higher profit ratio.
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  • Nov 7, 2012
    Todd Burch
    I agree with Mycroft, with one addition: They are also a new car company, with unknowns regarding quality, and if there's an issue they don't want to be caught with their pants down and take a massive loss (somewhat related to new technology, as Mycroft mentioned).

    It's not an issue with EV reliability in general, and seems to have almost everything to do with new technology and new car company. It's a bit of an early adopter tax. If you don't dig it, you could of course wait a few years and hopefully the cost will decrease or go away...but then you miss out on all that time driving a Tesla ;)
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  • Nov 7, 2012
    RDoc
    Has Tesla actually implemented the prepaid service plan? AFAIK people who've gotten their cars haven't had to, or indeed been able to purchase it. For that matter, is Tesla even telling owners that they're going to have to buy it to maintain their warranty?

    I wonder if Tesla is rethinking this.
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  • Nov 7, 2012
    NigelM
    I asked when my car was delivered and was told that I would be contacted sometime soon. I was also told that I have 30 days to decide on buying the plan, starting from the date I'm contacted. The 30 days doesn't start from the delivery date.

    I was informed about the need to do 12k inspections. No pressure whatsoever to buy a plan.
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  • Nov 7, 2012
    Andrew Wolfe
    I was not permitted to buy it. Tesla said they would get back to me when it goes on sale and it would probably come from the service dept., not sales.
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  • Nov 7, 2012
    Todd Burch
    Sounds like it might be under their internal legal review, perhaps?

    Edit: The longer they can delay, the more time they have to evaluate how production cars are performing on the road, giving them a better gauge of what they'll need to charge for it--or a better gauge of what the terms of the plan should be. Maybe they're buying their time with it too.
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  • Jan 7, 2013
    montgom626
    Model S warranty

    If this has already been answered, please excuse my question. If warranty work has to be done, who pays for the car to be picked up or the Ranger to drive to the car if the problem prevents the MS from being driven?

    - - - Updated - - -

    http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/10150-Warranty-Servicing-official-Tesla-responses-%28incl-GeorgeB%29/page3

    http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/10150-Warranty-Servicing-official-Tesla-responses-%28incl-GeorgeB%29/page3?p=187010&viewfull=1#post187010



    09-17-2012, 02:43 AM #24
    GeorgeB

    Hi everyone,

    To say there has been �a little� discussion about Joost�s service blog would be putting it lightly. Joost�s blog is about automotive service that takes care of Model S owners everyday, while at the same time highlighting the ability for Model S to have features added, even after you take delivery. It�s about things like Tesla Ranger Service that Roadster owners love, and packages that reduce the cost of owning Model S for 4 years or 50,000 miles. It seems that what most people focused on was quite different. It became a focus mostly on what is included and not included, and if you have to do Annual Inspections in order to keep your warranty valid. I will answer both questions in this follow up post.

    First a few quick explanations� I think it is important to understand a few things.

    When a company posts a blog, it gets reviewed internally by a lot of people. If the blog in questions says we are going to �do something� as a company, it is typically requested there be a footnote and/or disclaimer at the bottom of the page covering the restrictions and conditions surrounding that offering. For example, if we say we provide �Tire Rotation�, the review team requests that we say something like this at the bottom of the page: �Tire Rotation may or may not extend the life of your tires. The recommended frequency of rotation can be found in the Tire Care Booklet you may or may not receive when your car is delivered. Tire Rotation should be done within 500 miles of the frequency designated in the Tire Care Booklet. Tire Rotation must be done at an authorized Tesla Service Center, or a designate, as may change from time to time. The obligation to cover Tire Rotation may or may not continue on future models and can be changed at any time without notice.� I am not poking fun at this process, I am simply stating how the world works today. If you could have seen the list of footnotes and disclaimers at the bottom of Joost�s first draft, you would have been quite entertained. The disclaimers and footnotes were as long as the blog itself. As a result, many specifics were deleted from the blog, and it was moved to a higher-level message. In this follow up post, I am going to discuss, at a high level, a few services and coverages that all have specific conditions and restrictions surrounding them. There are no footnotes or disclaimers in the post, but you need to read everything in this post as having restrictions and conditions of some sort.

    Next, there were a lot of questions about the warranty being void if you don�t do Annual Inspections. I�d like to go sideways for a moment and tell a story from my past when I worked for �a computer company.� Very early in the design phase of our retail stores, it was decided that there would be a Service Desk in every store. This �Service Bar� would complement the Tech Support phone lines already in place at Headquarters. Here is a story about how this worked one day� A customer called the Tech Support phone line and said his computer was broken. The phone support Tech asked what the problem was. He said his display was broken. The Tech asked him what it looked like. He said there were lines across the entire display and it was fuzzy. The Tech asked when this happened, and was told that it happened �last night�. The Tech then asked if he could connect remotely to the computer to run a few diagnostics and see a few configuration details, which he did. They restarted the computer several times and adjusted the display settings several times. After about an hour of questions, diagnostics and discussion, the phone Tech explained that there was nothing further he could do, and suggested an appointment at the Service Desk in the nearby store. The customer was happy to do so. He showed up for the appointment in the store and met with the �Service Bar Tech.� He recounted the discussions with the phone Tech. The Service Tech in the store then opened the computer and said, �Your display is broken�. The customer said �That�s is what I was trying to tell the guy on the phone��It turns out that the glass display on his laptop was shattered. There was nothing wrong with the rest of the computer. The point is this�sometimes you need to physically see things in order to fully understand the situation.

    How does this relate to our warranty? �Seeing� your car at regular intervals is an important part of warranty service for several reasons. I�ll cover two of them.

    First, catching things early: As Joost said in his blog, we cover wear and tear parts, like brake pads. I don�t know how many of you have ever gone in for brake pad replacement on your car and received a phone call saying, �You drove too long on these pads and now you have to replace your rotors, too.� This increases the cost of �brake service� significantly. Candidly, we want to prevent that from happening. We want to see your car annually, or every 12,500 miles, so we can choose when to replace parts that have impact on other parts. You will not be paying additional for these replacements. We cover all these costs as part of your Annual Inspection fee. All we are asking is that we have the chance to review and replace wear and tear parts before they impact others, and the only way to do this is by �seeing� the car.

    Second, there are some items that have nothing to do with mileage, but are affected by �time.� For instance, brake fluid and some coolants dilute slowly over time. We have properly �timed� replacement of these items as part of the �Annual or 12,500 mile� schedule.

    When you combine these two items together, some that are �mileage dependent� and some that are �time dependent�, hopefully you will understand why we need to see your car at regular intervals. So, to answer the question clearly about whether failure to do Annual or 12,500 mile Inspections voids your warranty, yes it does. We need to see your car to make sure all covered wear and tear parts are visually inspected and replaced, as needed, before they grow into bigger issues. And we want to make sure things affected by �time� are replaced on their appropriate schedule. This may not be a popular answer, but it is the best way for us to make sure you and your car are being taken care of properly.

    So that brings us to the long list of questions about �what is covered?� Let me run thru a high level list. As I said above, all these items have certain conditions and limitations, but here you go:

    Here is what is covered for 4 years or 50,000 miles as long as you do Annual or 12,500 mile Inspections:

    ROADSIDE ASSISTANCE
    - INCLUDED: 4 years or 50,000 miles, 24/7.

    TOWING:
    - INCLUDED: If your car has a breakdown and cannot be driven, we pay for towing, up to 50 miles, to a Tesla Service Center, your home, or some other secure place. We will then assess your car to determine the best way to repair it.
    - INCLUDED: If your car is towed to somewhere other than a Tesla Service Center, we will determine if we think the issue can be fixed by a Tesla Ranger. If the answer is yes, we will dispatch a Tesla Ranger to fix your car, and there will be no charge for this Ranger visit.
    - INCLUDED: If your car is towed to somewhere other than a Tesla Service Center, and we determine it cannot be fixed by a Tesla Ranger, we will transport your car to a place where it can be serviced and return it to you at no additional charge, regardless of how far away you live from the Tesla Service Center.

    WEAR AND TEAR PARTS
    - INCLUDED: Everything except tires. Joost already identified things like wiper blades and brake pads. These are covered. There were lots of questions about things like headlights, taillights, and other things that people traditionally expect to wear out or perhaps burn out during a 4-year period. All these things are covered. Basically, everything is covered, except tires, as long as you let us do Inspections as scheduled.

    LOANER CAR
    - INCLUDED: If your service is estimated to take over four hours, and is being done at one of our Tesla Service Centers, we provide a Loaner Car at no additional charge. A Loaner Car is not provided for Tesla Ranger Service.

    WHEEL ALIGNMENT
    - INCLUDED: This needs to be done at a Tesla Service Center (not by a Ranger). If you have your Annual or 12,500 mile Inspection done at a Tesla Service Center, we will include wheel alignment at no charge. If you have your Annual or 12,500 mile Inspection done by a Tesla Ranger, we cannot do alignment service at that time, but the next time you are near a Tesla Service Center, just let us know in advance, and we will do an alignment for you at that time at no additional charge.

    TIRE ROTATION
    - INCLUDED: Tire rotation is provided at no additional charge, but must also be done at a Tesla Service Center. This is just like wheel alignment, if you have a Ranger do your Annual or 12,500 mile Inspection, just let us know ahead of time and we�ll do tire rotation when you have a chance to stop by one of our service centers. And there will be no charge.

    SOFTWARE UPDATES
    - INCLUDED: Not much to say here� Software updates done at a Service Center and/or remotely are included. There were several questions about getting software updates if you don�t purchase a connectivity plan. Yes, you will still get software updates if you do not purchase a connectivity plan.

    SUMMARY
    I think this is a very comprehensive plan. As long as you let us check out your car annually or every 12,500 miles, there�s not much else to cover�except tires. And we�ll even align and rotate them at no additional charge!

    SPECIFIC QUESTIONS
    I think the above is fairly clear, but I want to make sure, so what I�d like to do next is answer a few very specific questions asked by some of our loyal supporters on the forum. I want to make sure everything is clear. Some of the questions are very direct, and you may not like the answer, but I�d rather answer them and bring clarity to the issue than leave them open for further speculation.

    @DISCODUCKY, @shokunin: �What I will forfeit if I do NOT buy a service plan?�
    You do not have to buy a pre-paid service plan. The pre-paid plans were designed for those who want to reduce their costs by pre-paying, or get unlimited Ranger visits� but you do not have to buy a pre-paid plan at all. On our website [http://www.teslamotors.com/service], there is a chart at the bottom of the Service page which shows various ways to pay for service. You can buy a pre-paid plan, but it also specifically says you can also pay annually when you bring your car in for its Annual or 12,500 mile Inspection. You will not forfeit anything as long as you get your car serviced in line with any one of the options shown.

    @WONG.PETER �Is an annual inspection required to maintain the warranty?�
    Yes. If you do not buy a pre-paid service plan or bring your car in for Inspection, when due, you will forfeit your warranty. This is no different than any other car manufacturer and is necessary to make sure your car is operating properly and to replace any wear and tear parts we think might need to be replaced proactively.

    @ANDYSTJ: �What happens after 50,000 miles?�
    We plan to offer an Extended Service Plan to cover beyond 4 years or 50,000 miles.

    @DR CHILL: �What will happen to Tesla owners that do not pay for these annual inspections from Tesla? Can they take their car to an independent shop without affecting warranty coverage?�
    You will forfeit your warranty if you do not do Annual or 12,500 mile Inspections, when due. You will forfeit your warranty if you take your Model S to an independent shop for vehicle service and/or repairs. Your car needs to be serviced by a current, Tesla Certified mechanic to make sure it is working properly and to maintain the warranty on your car.

    @DAVIDWSMITH, @SCOLE04, @BEAKER, @JOHN56: �What, specifically, is covered and what is not? What is �wear and tear� exactly?�
    Wear and tear is anything that wears out or stops working with daily use. Wiper blades, brake pads, brake fluid, and light bulbs are all included. Everything but tires is included, and we even include alignment and tire rotation to help them last as long as possible.

    @Todd Burch: �If it needs to go on a lift, do they trailer it back to the service center? Will they return it to you after as well?�
    If your car breaks down and is not able to drive, transport both ways is on us (please see above under �towing� for more detail).

    @jimbakker666: �If it�s so low maintenance, won�t rangers rarely have to fix anything?�
    Rangers are there to provide convenience for those who want to use them, and to provide confidence to those who do not live near a Tesla Service Center. Tesla Rangers can come to your home or office to perform an Annual or 12,500 mile Inspection, warranty work, or almost any other work that doesn�t require a vehicle lift.

    I hope this post helps clarify the majority of questions about Tesla Service. I think if you step back and look at our plans, you will see that they are not simply �wiper blades and fluids� as one post suggested. We provide 24/7 Roadside Assistance, Towing, Loaner Cars, Wear and Tear parts, Wheel Alignments, Tire Rotation, Software Updates, and something I haven�t even touched on that seems to have been totally lost in the shuffle from Joost�s blog � New Features.

    I know some of you were very clear in your posts that you don�t care about �creep�, or some of the other features that we are planning to add, but perhaps another family member, or someone else who drives the car from time-to-time might like one of them. If nothing else, the added features might be attractive to a future buyer when the time comes to sell your car, which might make it worth more at that time. There�s no way to tell, but we think the ability to continue to enhance your car with new features, even after you take delivery, is a big step forward and one that sets Model S apart from all other cars. We believe �New Features� are an important part of Tesla Service.

    Thanks to all of you who chimed in with questions. When all is said and done, our goal is very straightforward, to provide you with a great ownership experience. We have tried to define a service program that does exactly that. One that takes care of you, your family, and your car. One that gives you all-inclusive cost options and options surrounding where you can have your car serviced. But even if you don�t choose one of the pre-paid plans, you know right now how much it will cost to fully maintain your Model S for the first 4 years or 50,000 miles. All you need to do is let us visit with your car from time-to-time at defined intervals and everything else is included�except tires [?IMG]

    GeorgeB
    Last edited by NigelM; 09-19-2012 at 08:57 PM. Reason: Fixed website link
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  • Jan 7, 2013
    gregincal
    Good to know.
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  • Jan 8, 2013
    David_Cary
    Reading this really makes me question my reservation. I'm not sure how I feel about the required inspections anyway but their blatant disregard for warranty law has me wondering what else they blatantly disregard. And to claim this is how every car manufacturer does it is completely false.
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  • Jan 8, 2013
    Al Sherman
    It's amazing to me that two people can see things SO differently. George's letter makes me want to reserve another S. It's mind boggling to think that there's a car company with this kind of incredible service. How could you not want to sign up immediately after reading that letter?
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  • Jan 8, 2013
    yobigd20
    ^^^^ Total opposite of how I felt. I've never seen this kind of commitment or generosity from any other manufacturer that I've bought cars from. (that includes Chevy, Nissan, Toyota, Ford, and Land Rover). I hope all other manufacturers put an emphasis on customer service like Tesla is doing here. What they are saying seems like common sense to me, common courtesy that you *should* see in America but you don't. Everyone else's focus is on nickel and diming the customer so that their pockets can be a bit fuller while their smiling all the way to the bank, leaving the customer feeling screwed. Tesla is actually trying to, and IMHO, successfully laying the foundation for a whole new framework of car ownership experience. I don't understand and can't fathom all the negatively that people have about Tesla. To me it seems those people are just whining and trying to nickel and dime Tesla instead, or they have a hard time accepting that there's more to this world then how big you've made your bank account by screwing others. I actually appreciate their ingenuity, hard work, and everything else their doing for us and I'm ecstatic about getting my Model S and being a part of this revolutionary experience.
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  • Jan 8, 2013
    Enadler
    The plan as presented by George is exceedingly comprehensive. Annual visits for service to maintain a valid warranty is warranted in a vehicle like this. What I do object to is the fact that they have basically simply added a mandatory option to the car purchase. Instead of charging separately this should ave been included in the price of this very expensive automobile. These are things that irritate me just include it, raise the price $1500 but include it!
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  • Jan 8, 2013
    ChrisgG
    Well be greatfull, here the fines for speading are based on how much you're too fast. If you'd be caught with warp 1 it would be 1,079,252,729 km/h too fast. you'd probably get the death sentene then. But then. you'd have problems with the next curve anyway ;)
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  • Jan 8, 2013
    bbmertz
    +1 Particularly since it covers every single wear and tear item except tires (e.g., headlamps, brakes, wiper blades, etc.). Also agree that it would have been better if it had been included in the price, at least for the first few years like BMW.
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  • Jan 8, 2013
    byt
    I'm super happy to hear I can extend the warrantee beyond the initial 4 years and will get this for that piece of mind alone on my $110k Model S!!!
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  • Jan 8, 2013
    sublimaze1
    It's AppleCare for your Tesla. Plain and Simple. I have never bought an Apple product (except my iPod shuffle long time ago) without the AppleCare. I have owned nine Apple products, and my kids six. To me, it makes sense. If I didn't have the money, it would be a different story. But if I didn't have the money, I would have bought a Volt.
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  • Jan 8, 2013
    Enadler
    @Suplimaze1 not quite true. Applecare is an extended/enhanced warranty program. The regular warranty exists and is active without purchasing Applecare. With the Tesla warranty program you are required to purchase the service program to have a valid warranty. I guess you could read it that Tesla has a 1 year 12,500 mile warranty and to extend it beyond that time you will need to buy the service program.

    As I stated earlier I would have much preferred the program added to the cost of the initial car. Tesla was so laser focused on under $50k that they stripped this and other necessary items out. I think they should have simply had a base car at under $50k and then had all the other models include the other necessary items. I would feel less nickel and dimed. Yes the total cost would remain the same just my feeling of being mislead. It is sort of like booking a hotel room only to find out that there is a mandatory resort fee.
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  • Jan 8, 2013
    brianman
    Thanks for sharing your opinion here. All honest opinions are definitely welcome.
    Can you elaborate a little on the specific concerns? More specifically on "disregard for warranty law". We've heard from a few forum members on that topic but is your concern derived from those posts or from your own interpretation of the law.
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  • Jan 8, 2013
    David_Cary
    Does it make sense that they offer a warranty and then charge $600 a year to keep it in force? Does that meet anyone's sniff test for fair? No of course not.

    Fine if they can prove that because the car didn't get an inspection, something horrible happened as a direct result - fine.

    But to make a warranty null and void for failure to them to get $600 a year for doing very little - that is a violation of Magnuson-Moss act as interpreted by people on this forum and my understanding of it prior to this forum.

    My biggest concern is the lack of a court that has a standing should I have an issue. In NC, I would just contact my AG but I am not sure they have standing to get Tesla to do anything....When Honda didn't want to replace my battery, a call/email to the AG and I had a new battery on the way in 2 days. Where do we sue Tesla if we have to? CA? FL? Neither place I want to go for that.
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  • Jan 8, 2013
    bonnie
    Have you read the actual warranty or are you basing your conclusions on forum posts?
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  • Jan 8, 2013
    strider
    This has been discussed (I suggest you actually wade through all 500 posts in this thread). GeorgeB IS NOT A LAWYER. His statements on this board DO NOT trump the ACTUAL WRITTEN WARRANTY that is delivered w/ the car. The actual written warranty is what you and Tesla are bound to, not GeorgeB's statements. The actual written warranty is written like every other car manufacturer's warranty - that periodic maintenance is required and that it must be done by a trained mechanic.

    At some point there will be competent 3rd party shops that will be able to do EV maintenance and when that happens you will be free to take your car there and if something break Tesla will have to fix it under warranty. But until then Tesla is your only option.
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  • Jan 8, 2013
    kevincwelch
    This is the key.

    What George says in person or on the forums may rationalize the intent of the cost or the relationship, but the contract that you sign contains the stipulations of the agreement between you and Tesla. The contract and warranty does not specifically state what George is specifying. Agree completely with Strider on this issue here.

    At some point, someone will know enough about Tesla vehicles to be competent to do servicing as needed. Whether they will have the complete understanding of the electronics and software, who knows. But right now, it's only Tesla.
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  • Jan 8, 2013
    GSP
    Earlier in this thread, it was sounding like I could not even rotate my own tires. This makes a lot more sense.

    If I do the periodic maintenance in a competent manner, the warranty is still valid. And even if the maintenance is not even done, the warranty is sill valid for unaffected items. An example would be that a failed PEM would still be replaced under warranty, even if the tires were never rotated.

    Presumably Tesla parts, special tools, training, and service info will be available for anyone willing to pay for it.

    GSP
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  • Jan 8, 2013
    huntjo
    It's fun to revive old threads!
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  • Jan 8, 2013
    dsm363
    I'm sure you can do most of the basic maintenance yourself like rotating tires but certain things like the battery checks and other diagnostic equipment can only be done by Tesla at this point so you basically have no choice.
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  • Jan 8, 2013
    stopcrazypp
    Exactly. We've discussed this over and over again, but it definitely needs to be pointed out.
    I suggest people read the actual warranty before coming to conclusions:
    http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/9578-Warranty-(esp-driving-through-floods!)

    What GeorgeB is correct about is that right now there is really no practical alternative to the $600 service (simply because there is no third party EV servicing industry), but it's not explicitly required for your warranty to be valid (that would be illegal without an FTC exemption).
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  • Jan 9, 2013
    David_Cary
    The thread did get merged so that is how I jumped in. 500 posts is a little intimidating. The clarity on GeorgeB's words vs written contract is helpful.

    Does anyone know what $600 buys you?
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  • Jan 9, 2013
    Robert.Boston
    It buys you the 12-month/12,000 mile inspection, plus any and all parts and labor to address warranty items and routine maintenance, except tires.
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  • Jan 9, 2013
    Al Sherman
    Doesn't that include swapping out for snows once a year and the needed TPMS reset?
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  • Jan 9, 2013
    dsm363
    They could do that during your annual service but I don't know if they've decided how they want to handle winter tire swaps yet.
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  • Jan 9, 2013
    Carlton Bale
    The problem is that Tesla is currently in violation of federal Service Information Regulations that require manuals, training, and tools be made available to any third-party service provider, and at a cost inline with what the certified dealer network pays. At this point, it's not even clear if these even exist, and they certainly aren't available to third parties. If Tesla were behaving like every other car company, they would publish specific time-based and mileage-based maintenance guidelines. The customer would then be able to choose any service provider to perform this work. The warranty would only become void if improper maintenance somehow caused a failure that would not have otherwise occurred. It would not, for example, void the warranty for a failed seat belt because of improper maintenance of the battery coolant (unless that somehow directly caused the seat belt to fail.)

    There will not be a third-party service industry until Tesla makes available the information to facilitate its creation. Without an exemption, they are in violation of SIR for not doing so.
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  • Jan 9, 2013
    Robert.Boston
    @Carlton Bale: The only such federal regulations I'm familiar with are those diagnostics and manuals related to emissions-control systems, pursuant to 48 U.S.C. 7401-7467-09. This section clearly does not apply to Tesla, as there are no emissions and hence no emissions-control systems. "As currently implemented, car companies are required by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to make all emissions-related information available over Web sites that are accessible to the independent vehicle repair shops. Car companies are also required to make their emissions-related diagnostic tools available to the aftermarket."

    Massachusetts is the only state that has passed right-to-repair legislation, but here again, this won't apply because even that law only requires the OEM to provide third party access to materials on the same basis as it provides to its franchise dealerships. Because Tesla has no franchise dealers, that law does not apply.

    Could you point to the particular law or regulation you're citing, please?
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  • Jan 9, 2013
    David_Cary
    Well I'd like a little more detail.

    From what it sounds like, they will do brake fluid changes every couple of years, a wiper blade or two and then a bunch of inspections. Nothing to justify the cost. Warranty items are already covered. An EV should not need "routine maintenance" and is one of the significant advantages. Heck most modern cars don't need routine maintenance other than a few fluid changes at long intervals. Nothing that $200 a year shouldn't cover.

    Seems to me that not itemizing what they do makes it pretty hard to have an alternative which is a violation of the spirit of the law (at least).

    Does the battery warranty have stricter requirements in CARB states?
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  • Jan 9, 2013
    joshuaeven
    Isn't there some post somewhere that states the annual inspections are basically a tear-down and thorough eval of the entire car, and that Tesla is LOSING money on these inspections?
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  • Jan 9, 2013
    dsm363
    Don't think so. The Model S was designed to require less work on the inspection I believe. They likely want to see the car so often to find any long term flaws sooner than later.
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  • Jan 9, 2013
    stopcrazypp
    I think Robert is correct, that law only applies to cars with emissions equipment (which EVs don't have).
    But I agree Tesla should at least have a service/maintenance schedule available.
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  • Jan 10, 2013
    Carlton Bale
    I guess I'm not clear what applies to EVs and what does not. It seems there would be no need for inclusion of an OBD port either, but I don't believe that is the case.
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  • Jan 10, 2013
    Doug_G
    There is an ODB port on the Model S. It's hidden behind the cubby under the touchscreen. The Roadster also has one under the dashboard in front of the passenger seat; it's usually really tucked in there and can be hard to find the first time.
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  • Jan 10, 2013
    TXjak
    Since Tesla recommends tire rotation every 6000 miles, you could probably get them to do it in conjunction with a rotation which is covered, along with alignment, if needed, and balancing presumably.
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  • Jan 10, 2013
    FlasherZ
    The OBD port (the white connector) is not a standard OBD-II interface; it's Tesla's custom interface. Is there another, standard OBD-II port? I have a question in to service about OBD-II, because insurance reducers like Progressive's Snapshot and State Farm's program use OBD-II to collect data.
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  • Jan 10, 2013
    W.Petefish
    The white connector is used for service diagnostics only.

    There is another obd port closer to the driver's side door under the dash.

    Sent from my Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk
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  • Jan 10, 2013
    FlasherZ
    I looked all over for it where it's supposed to be. Have a picture of where it is in your car?
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  • Jan 10, 2013
    Al Sherman
    It would probably have to be INSTEAD of a rotation, if I were putting on a different set of wheels and tires?
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  • Jan 10, 2013
    strider
    David, no disrespect but we've beat this horse to death (in this very thread). Please go back and read the rest of the thread. May have voiced your exact concern. There has been no new info out of Tesla that I am aware of. My guess is that nothing will happen until next Fall when cars come due for their first services and we'll see what happens.
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  • Jan 10, 2013
    TXjak
    It's just more wheels and tires in the mix. ;-) But you might want to make a note of which wheels came from where, when you bring them back to be put back on.
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  • Jan 10, 2013
    stopcrazypp
    The ODB requirement applies to all cars as part of 40 CFR 86.1806-01 On-board diagnostics:
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/86.1806-01

    The service information regulation only applies to "emissions related" diagnosis and repairs (and since the Tesla has no emissions, it doesn't apply to it) as part of 42 USC 7521(m)(5) Information availability:
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7521

    Here's EPA's rule-making that says essentially the same (everything is prefixed with "emissions-related"):
    http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/im/vehserv/f03003.pdf
    http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-AIR/1995/August/Day-09/pr-913.html
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  • Jan 11, 2013
    raptorweb
    if you still haven't found it i can try to get a picture of it tonight ... it is pretty much right where W.Petefish says on the left side under the steering wheel about 1/2 way back. It is oriented in a parallel fashion to the driver.
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  • Jan 11, 2013
    XK8driver
    To me knowing my maintenance costs and the security of 24/7 roadside assistance and towing is WELL worth $1.64/day!! Guys we're buying some very new technology it will be a few years before they know how these cars hold up under actual use. I feel much better after George's explaination...
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  • Jan 11, 2013
    brianman
    Here?
    OBDLocation.jpg
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  • Jan 12, 2013
    raptorweb
    Yeah that is it
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  • Jan 14, 2013
    rogbmw
    I would bet that the TESLA does not have an actual "OBD II" port, as there is no equipment on the car that reflects OBD II requirements. Remember - OBD (onboard diagnostics) II ports monitor engine and emissions equipment - the TESLA has none. Other manufacturers have different ports that directly plug into the computers, but the information is not OBD information.

    I hate bringing this up, but regarding the warranty issue that was being discussed in the previous page or two, many manufacturers have propriatory information on their cars that they do not share with aftermarket shops. On my BMW -many of the diagnostics are not available to independent shops. In fact, on new BMWs, one has to go back to the dealer to have the battery changed, as taking out a battery has a major impact on the computer.
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  • Jan 25, 2013
    hans
    Anyone get this to work? I tried out my bluetooth OBDII adapter in this port. It powered up but I couldn't get it to talk to the Tesla ECU. I am looking for a way to stream live telemetry from the car.
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  • Jan 26, 2013
    markwj
    Does your adaptor support 1Mbps CAN? That is the speed of the bus in the roadster, and stops a lot of lower-end OBDII equipment from seeing anything.
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  • Jan 26, 2013
    hans
    Nope. It's a cheapo unit with the mass market chipset that doesn't do 1 Mbps CAN. I have done some internet research but it's difficult to figure out which unit to try. The Torque Wiki recommends the Scantool ODBLink MX but they aren't using these things on Teslas. If you know if an adapter (Bluetooth or USB or whatever) that is known to work on the Roadster I can give it a try on the Model S.
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  • Jan 26, 2013
    markwj
    For Roadster, we just use USB-CAN adaptors. But, those use proprietary libraries, so it would be roll-your-own software to poll OBDII - not hard (see the OVMS OBDII vehicle module for an example).
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  • Jan 28, 2013
    W.Petefish
    The OBD2 is used for TPMS as well as for an inspection station.
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  • Jan 28, 2013
    hcsharp
    The TPMS brings up an interesting point. I assumed inspections of EVs didn't require hooking up to the OBD2 port since there are no pollution control devices to monitor. But if your TPMS has to be working to pass inspection then perhaps Tesla has to have a port to check that. In NH for example you can't pass inspection until your car is hooked up and the data is uploaded to the State's database.
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  • Jan 28, 2013
    W.Petefish
    In some areas, like California, mandate the OBD2 plug in just to verify that there is in fact no emissions equipment installed and there is no engine. (Ridiculous, I know. Especially since Tesla only produces Electric Vehicles.)
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