Oct 9, 2012
dsm363 That doesn't mean it costs you less, it just hides the cost. It's just a different way of pricing it. I'm sure they'll probably include it in the future since people want 'free' maintenance included in the cost of the car.�
Oct 9, 2012
ElSupreme The only problem here is that you can only compare the first 4 years. Tesla has no price structure past that point. If you average your first 4 years only add up to $425 (even if you count 2008 in stead of 2004 you only have $570 per year). And if you drove over $50k miles in that time frame the Tesla cost would be even more. The price is on par, not less.
I expect to pay maintenance costs. I expected them to be less than an ICE cost. That isn't the case for the first 4 years. After that I think the maintenance on the Tesla will start to be an advantage (even at $600 per 12,000 miles) over an ICE. I think the turning point will be at about 100,000 miles though, as a modern ICE pretty much cruises until then. But then spark plugs, transmission work, water pumps, all start to die. And around $150k-$200k you have to start worrying about major transmission and engine repairs. The model S should need filters, and maybe some coolant pumps and keep going strong.�
Oct 9, 2012
RDoc Including the service in the price of the car though puts it out where people can see it before they buy the car. Personally, my problem is not with spending the money on service/maintenance, it's with Tesla doing a particularly egregious bait and switch.
There still is nowhere on the Tesla site, except for GeorgeB's reply to the service blog post, that says you have to pay for the warranty. GeorgeB made a big deal about legally required footnotes, but there isn't one on the Specifications page where the warranty is described, it just says it's "included". So what else that's "included" will have to be paid for and when will it be announced? For example, what is the battery warranty for years 5 - 8 going to cost?
The problem isn't money, it's trust.�
Oct 9, 2012
ckessel That would depend on the cost of the part and the difficulty of the what's required to repair or maintain it. In your first sentence you mention that you can't compare maintenance of an EV to an ICE, so consequently the costs for maintaining the EV/ICE components probably shouldn't be assumed to be comparable either.
Take an absurd extreme example of a part that's highly reliable, but requires nano-scale molecular inspection by a PHD level physicist each year. Maintenance would be pretty expensive in that case. Obviously a crazy example, but I can believe Tesla's EV parts would require a different sort of inspection/maintenance than an ICE part. Not PHD nano-tech different, but different enough to be meaningful.
I can say I'm disappointed the service charge isn't significantly lower than an ICE and I think Tesla's PR led us to believe it would be, but I don't have enough knowledge to say if the charge is actually unreasonable.�
Oct 9, 2012
George Parrott I have in other places, already complained about the amount of this service charge. I will continue to protest and I will continue to look and consider ANY other option from Acura (NSX) or even Cadillac (ELR) before I finalize my delivery of the Model S. I am OK with paying for a very well-equipped Model S (I am looking at close to $100k out the door), but I absolutely HATE continued regular payments for anything. I have a large solar array on our home, because I don't like monthly electric or gas bills, and even the MUCH, MUCH more complex Chevy Volt has nothing like "service costs" of $600 per year. I would be comfortable with a cost structure of something like $2-300/year for the first 3 years and then maybe $500/year for years 4-5 of ownership with another jump to maybe $600/year for years 6-8. But starting at $600/year for what is "service" is simply padding the warranty risk cost back to the consumer!!!!! EVs are simple in terms of support/service demands, so the service prepaid costs should be inline with those expectations. Big issues of support cost to Tesla will be warranty covered anyway!�
Oct 9, 2012
dsm363 It is $475/year if you prepay for 4 years and don't require unlimited Ranger visits. You likely have a service center within driving distance since you live in California. These payments are obviously part of an early adopter penalty if you want to call it that. They cover service and part costs, hiring new Rangers and building out new service centers and other expenses. Tesla is a young, growing company burning through a lot of cash. Comparing costs to a $35k Volt which is being sold for a loss and that costs is being absorbed into a multi-billion dollar company is hard to do.
I agree that Tesla should just build part of the cost into the car and lower the remainder to $300/year lets say. People would have an easier time with that.�
Oct 9, 2012
polera257
I agree with you about regular payments. I also have solar panels and have not paid for electricity for several years. Think the Cadillac ELR is a sharp car and have been watching it for a while. I feel the way this service plan is being done is horrible just like the additional charge to the 60k battery supercharging. I don't buy for one minute the story George B posted about it being a mistake. I feel as if Tesla is changing things as they go along and the res holders are just supposed to go along with it and all is forgiven. It doesn't work that way. Have a meeting, decide what is included and what is extra come up with a charge for the extras and make it public, period. No more George B posts with excuses. Just the facts and make it final or keep it unresolved. But to go from TBD to included would cause most people to think supercharging was included not hardware included and 1000.00 to activate the hardware. If I did that in my business I would be called a cheat and have the State down on me so fast I would not know what happened.�
Oct 9, 2012
hcsharp Software updates should not be considered a maintenance item for the customer to pay. The only exception would be if it enabled new features that weren't promised when the car was delivered. Software development is usually a capital expense for almost everything. The cost of bug fixes should be borne by the manufacturer.
For Tesla to defend their opportunistic maintenance fee by saying it includes "software updates" is ludicrous. New features that are enabled by software should be optional and sold that way.�
Oct 9, 2012
dave Is anyone else concerned that releasing the maintenance schedule AFTER they've already priced the service plan will lead to it containing exaggerated items that may not actually be required, in order to justify the mandatory service plans?
"We have to tweak the "fluxcapaciitorgizmodrive" every 12 months. It's very technical, you wouldn't understand."�
Oct 9, 2012
dsm363 For comparison, I took some friends for a ride who aren't into EVs at all and they absolutely loved the car. I told them about this maintenance controversy and they thought the $475-600 fee seemed appropriate for a car like the Model S. I realize not everyone feels that way.�
Oct 10, 2012
strider Well, we have the RAV4-EV's maintenance schedule already and since the drivetrain is the same as the 40kWh model S there isn't a ton of stuff they can jam in there w/o opening themselves up to criticism.�
Oct 10, 2012
Rifleman Part of the problem is that "a car like the Model S" can mean anything from a $50,000 daily driver to a $110,000 high performance beast of a car. While the service fees for the P85 are in line with its competition, for a base 40 kWh model, it represents a significant increase in service cost over the competition. To make matters even muddier, many 40 kWh buyers are comping the car against brands like Buick, Acura and Lexus, not against cars that also start at 50k, as the lifetime fuel savings of the Model S bring the lifetime operating cost into the same range as the lower level premium vehicles from these brands. The fee of $600-$700 (depending on where you live) per 12500 miles completely breaks this cost comparison. The price point for owners signing up for the 4 year plan is better, but the required up front cost would eat into the money available for a down payment for owners who are financing, and is not an option for many.�
Oct 10, 2012
Robert.Boston Would the complaining have been louder or softer if Tesla had announced an across-the-board price increase of $2000 in January, and then announced in September that the "white glove" 4yr/50k miles service plan was free?�
Oct 10, 2012
RDoc I think people would have been ecstatic! I would have been.
As I've said before, the current situation leaves a very bad taste in a lot of peoples' mouths, myself included.�
Oct 10, 2012
VolkerP softer. No one would have finalized if he couldn't bear the additional $2k.�
Oct 10, 2012
swegman It would have been softer. As i previously said, I have owned Audi, MB, Lexus vehicles, and either the manufacturer or the dealer has provided free service for the cars during the warranty period. I recently looked at the Caddy XTS, and it includes free maintennace during the warranty period. I've only had to pay for service with the Toyota Prius during the warranty period, but that cost less than $100/year. And even toyota now provides free maintenance for 2 years.
To me, what Tesla is doing has a bad appearance, and is out of line with other car manufacturers. I understand that there is no such thing as a free lunch, you pay for service one way or the other. But building the cost into the price of the vehicle, as the other car manufacturers are doing, is the better approach. At the least, it would make Tesla look consistent with the offerings of Caddy, BMW, et al.�
Oct 10, 2012
Tempus i'm just not sure i get that attitude. Obviously a lot of people feel that way (that it would be better to roll the service price into the car price and basically hide it from the buyer), but if you're paying the exact same amount anyway, wouldn't you rather know what the breakdown is? It just seems like people are saying - go ahead and hide these costs that you are still paying, and i'll feel better about buying the car... just don't get it.�
Oct 10, 2012
VolkerP Imagine this conversation in 2009.
Me: "Darling, I want our next car to be electric."
Wife: "Will it hold our kids? If not, I want that minivan."
Me: "No, no, look here, 5+2 seats, $50k, up to 300 miles of range."
Wife: "Ok, go ahead, and make that reservation payment."
in 2011:
Me: "Tesla announced pricing. Batteries come in steps $10k for 70 miles each."
Wife: "Sure the base version will do?"
Me: "we really should consider the next size. And we must order air suspension or defer our reservation even further."
In August 2012:
Me: "Darling, great news! Supercharging is included in our mid-size battery model. That's at least a $500 donation towards us!"
Wife: "What's supercharging?"
In September 2012:
Me: "Uhm, we need that service plan to maintain our warranty. That's another $1900." :redface:
Wife: "Ok tell me what other cost increases are in the pipeline? We're approaching $90k with that $50k base model, BTW." :frown:
Me: <mumbling perhaps a data plan, dunno, cold navigate with maps or smartphone instead... satellite radio subscription... set of winter tires would be good, we're talking 19 inch rims here, these start at $1000... need electrician to work on our garage.../> :redface:
In October 2012:
Me: "Remember that supercharging option? Well I dunno if we still need it but now it's $2k."
Wife: ...
It would have been a lot easier to start this with $52k instead of $50k. It's still uphill work to sell this vehicle to me, and I've pretty much stopped talking about it to other people.�
Oct 10, 2012
Adm I am getting the 40kWh battery and I really, no really, don't care as long as Tesla takes good care of my Model S.
I am quite surprised on how this thread just keeps going on repeating the same (some valid) arguments time after time after time.. I'd say: Get organized and write a letter to Tesla if you really care this strongly about this issue.�
Oct 10, 2012
RDoc The problem is exactly that, you don't know.
The cost of the service contract is nowhere on the Tesla site except buried in a response to a blog post. If it were up front in the price, there'd be no question of what the cost was.
Then there's the issue of what will the 5 to 8 year battery warranty cost. Since Tesla seems to have a policy of charging for "included" items and notifying people only after purchase, aka "bait and switch", there's a real question of what's in store.�
Oct 10, 2012
Tempus ok, come on - now you're just passing misinformation.
Service | Tesla Motors
that is NOT in any way "buried in a blog post"
but that's really not the point - i get that people are upset that we (and i include tesla here) didn't know up front what the full price was going to be for service (and for supercharging in some cases), and we still don't know the extended warranty.... these are early adopter issues. It's not bait and switch. it's tesla publishing information as they have it - and yes, that sucks for some early adopters, but such is life in that scenario.
In 6 months or a year, these will all be complete non issues. people who are signing contracts at that point will know exactly what the costs are, and I for one think it's much better that they break out costs to this extent as opposed to having everything just hidden in the base cost of the car.�
Oct 10, 2012
strider Because it's easier to justify as an "early adopter penalty" if the car is more expensive yet maintenance (on a "low-maintenance vehicle") is cheap/free. It also allows people to finance the cost if need be since it's rolled into the purchase price. Also, the fact that I know the breakdown has me really upset as I don't see the value in what they're charging for service. If the price of my car was $95k with free service for 4 years instead of $93k then that would just be the cost of the car and I could pay it or not. But now it feels like I'm not only paying a lot for the car but now I'm paying a lot for service.
I know it doesn't make any sense and that it's an emotional response but it is what it is. I'm not Spock�
Oct 10, 2012
dsm363 I agree. This is all early adopter issues. I don't think any malicious intent is here on Tesla's part it just that they're moving things out the door as fast as possible and nailing things down when they can. Could things have gone smoother in retrospect? Sure but they usually step up to the plate and do the right thing when it's possible.�
Oct 10, 2012
RDoc Misinformation - Really?
Before making such claims, try to find somewhere on that page or any other on the Tesla site apart from GeorgeB's reply to the blog post that says you must buy their service to keep your warranty intact. Lots of car companies offer paid service plans, none I'm aware of will void your warranty if you don't buy it.
If you can't find it, please post an apology.�
Oct 10, 2012
ckessel It doesn't say you must buy Tesla's service because the actual warranty doesn't require it.�
Oct 10, 2012
Tempus I'm completely not going to rehash that discussion again. besides, here is your quote that i was responding directly to:
in fact, the cost of the service contract is directly in the link i posted. I don't see how George's message on this site is even directly relevant.�
Oct 10, 2012
RDoc There seem to be at least two camps here, those who think the service is required to maintain the warranty and those who don't.
I'm with the ones who think it's required since GeorgeB, a person of some authority explicitly stated that it is. If it isn't then that's pretty bad since he's trying to scare people into buying something that's not required and is a deliberate falsehood. I doubt that.
If Tesla thinks it's required, but legally it isn't, which is a real possibility, then it will be fought out in the courts. That's not something I want any part of. If the service sounds expensive, a lawsuit will be substantially more.
@Tempus: That quote was in direct response to the question of including mandatory service in the price of the car or not. If it weren't mandatory, this thread wouldn't exist, note the title of the thread "Warranty/Servicing - official Tesla responses (incl GeorgeB)".�
Oct 10, 2012
ckessel Or George isn't a legal guy and knows maintenance is required, but didn't realize the warranty doesn't (and can't) restrict such maintenance to Tesla.
There may be two camps of thought, but one is based on a forum posting and the other is based on the wording in the actual legally binding warranty and that's the only one that's going to matter.�
Oct 10, 2012
Tempus Ok, i see your point re the context, i wasnt reading the two as the same since plenty of ice cars include x years of service in the price of the car, and that was the context i took your quote in, and that part of the discussion has little to do with whether georges comments were legal or not..... Frankly thats a whole other ball of wax which i wasnt trying to address�
Oct 10, 2012
bonnie Or a third camp, which believes the warranty is the controlling legal document and that George's post, while not as clear as it should have been, was not a deliberate falsehood but only an error in wording. I assume good intent here. So far that's worked pretty well for me.�
Oct 10, 2012
hcsharp I don't think there's a third camp. Tesla made a mistake but I don't think anybody had bad intent. @RDoc I wouldn't assume that GeorgeB was trying to scare anyone. He either messed up his wording or he didn't understand the requirements himself. Based on his language I'm somewhat confused by the difference between annual/12.5k inspections and annual maintenance.�
Oct 10, 2012
vfx Are any of the phone updates things that were supposed to be included? I like that Tesla came out with the car early and is upgrading on the fly. It's brillaint marketing. At some point the firmware upgrades will be things that people havve been asking for but never promised. Or things that Tesla thought would make the car better. That's when the value kicks in.
- - - Updated - - -
Should include a 2.0 12V battery replacement.�
Oct 10, 2012
RDoc What's unclear about this quote from GeorgeB's reply to the original service blog post?
This is from the original blog which is all about this service/inspection plan. I don't really see how GeorgeB's post could be referring to anything else.
It's quite possible that voiding the warranty like this is illegal, however, it's pretty clear that at least GeorgeB thinks that's Tesla's policy. Thus far there's been no other word from Tesla denying it either. I'm hoping the silence means they are reconsidering their position, not just stonewalling.
As I've said before, it might be possible to win a court suit, but that's going to be a long, difficult and very expensive process.
Tesla really needs to get this clarified. It's already starting to filter out to the auto press and isn't going to help them sell cars.�
Oct 10, 2012
Citizen-T My God, is this really still going on? I for one would like to applaud George B's instincts on what whining deserves changes (the supercharger bit for those already locked in) and what doesn't.
I'll tell you what is "leaking into the automotive press": Model S spanking the M5 in a drag race.
Here's my advice. Stop comparing every little detail to its ICE counterpart. Tesla can't make Model S a better ICE than the ICE kings, and they can't make themselves a better traditional car company than the established players. The only way to win this is to play a different game. Sometimes that means no more haggling over price. Sometimes it means you have to wait for your car. Sometimes it means free fuel for your road trips and new features over the air, and sometimes it means no free service under warranty.
Every time I read "every other car manufacturer does x" I throw up a little in my mouth.
Step back and take another look at the big picture here. Go have a look at that thread with pics of everyone's kids in the driver seat of the Model S. Go watch some Tesla grin videos on YouTube. Pull out those pics you too at the factory tour last year. You know, that American factory that is now building American cars, guess what, it is still there.
Tesla has earned my trust. I wouldn't take my car anywhere else to be serviced, whether it is allowed or not. If they say it costs $600 a year, so be it. I probably spend a lot more than that on a lot of things that I care a whole lot less about (coffee for instance).
Different business models are, well, different. And I definitely want different.�
Oct 11, 2012
westerndh Very well said!
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Oct 11, 2012
efusco That's the statement I'd choose to lock this 'shark jumped' thread on.
Evan, Via Tapatalk�
Oct 11, 2012
mnx I say it's time to close this thread already�
Oct 11, 2012
bonnie I agree, it would be a good final quote for this thread. Policy is to leave threads open, BUT, there is nothing stopping people from constantly quoting that post. Like I just did.
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Oct 11, 2012
dsm363 Maybe we should unsticky this. When any clarification becomes available and the warranty is fully understood, a new thread can be started discussing it.
Since everyone is quoting it, why not? Great post too:
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Oct 11, 2012
bonnie Thread is unstuck. Good suggestion, I hadn't even noticed.�
Oct 11, 2012
Jaff + 1001 ...well stated Sir!
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Oct 11, 2012
strider You can try and shout people down all you want but there are two things here that Tesla has to contend with and they're not going away no matter how loudly you sing kumbaya:
1) In order to succeed they need more than EV-fanatics to buy their cars. There aren't enough of us. They need people who truly are cross-shopping 5-series, A7, etc. and these people WILL compare TCO. And right now the TCO of a Model S is NOT lower than it's ICE competitors. Based on limited knowledge today about battery longevity, we must assume that fuel savings will be chewed up by an eventual battery replacement. Yes it has a ton of benefits over an ICE which is why I'm about to own two of them but buying a Tesla is not an economic decision.
2) Tesla states all over their marketing materials about how Model S is a "low maintenance car" yet has service fees that are the same or more than ICE cars. So they need to eliminate the marketing verbiage or bring service fees in line with that messaging.
I am FINE with paying to help build out the service network as an early adopter. But to do that they should add the cost to the car and keep the service fees low. It's related to the optics of #2 above. Whenever I talk to people about EVs I go into the amazing performance, etc but also about how much simpler an EV is than an ICE. So then people ask what the service costs. W/ the Roadster I could say that it's hand-built, 1st gen, lots of labor to check the Lotus chassis, etc. But now w/ Model S the price is the same and it really baffles people. Adding a couple thousand to Model S and Model X to catch the more wealthy early adopters to build out the service network and then w/ Gen III have reasonable service fees. I don't want Tesla to be known as an "expensive to own" car as it goes against what EV's are all about.�
Oct 11, 2012
Jhall118 Either way, the Gen III will have lower service charges. Either because Tesla lowers them by then, or because 3rd party garages get the certification to service them. If a service tech no longer works for Tesla and works for some other shop that had the equipment, there's no way they could successfully pull the warranty card.�
Oct 11, 2012
Beavis Yes, we know already. Everything that can be said has been said. We are on page 49 so posting hasn't gotten the anti- service plan crowd any closer to their desired solution. It is time to stop posting about how this makes you feel and take action that might get you to where you want to be. Contact TM and tell them you are willing to walk away if they don't do what you want them to do.�
Oct 11, 2012
swegman I agree with item (1) of strider, above, and can give a perfect example. I have a friend looking at buying a new car, a loaded Audi A6 for a cost of about $65K plus. She looked at the Tesla at the scottsdale, az location. Upon hearing that there is a yearly maintennance fee for the Tesla, she said forget it. The Audi she is considering includes free service for the length of the warranty.
You can argue all you want that tesla is a startup, and needs the money to build service locations, Superchargers, etc. You can argue all you want that over a 10 year period, the tesla will be cheaper (and i debate this, as I know very few people that keep a car more than 6-7 years; actually, I only have 2 friends whose cars are older than 7 years). If tesla can not convince the non-EV fanatic to buy the car, it will all be for nothing. Tesla needs to convince the average person on the street that the car is worth buying. So far, EVERY person I know that is looking for a new luxury car has written off the Tesla solely because of the yearly maintennance plan requirement. Every sale they lose is one step closer to failure. They should have done what the other car manufacturers do; add it to the cost of the car and say yearly service is included for no additional fee.�
Oct 11, 2012
Beavis Ok, let me help you. My advice is to draft a letter to GB giving him your reasons that the service fee should be less, zero, or whatever. Let him know your demands. Go through every page of this 49 page thread and identify everyone that has voiced a negative opinion about the service plan. Send each one of them a private email through this site asking them if they will sign your draft letter to GB. Then send it with the signatures and reservation numbers. Be prepared to threaten to give up your reservation and sue for your deposit. If you aren't willing to do that then this is all just impotent whining because GB reads this never ending thread and there has been no action on their part to address your concerns.�
Oct 11, 2012
swegman Kroneal, I have already canceled one reservation and have deferred the second reservation to see what happens. I have discussed my concerns with them. To date, it has fallen on deaf ears at Tesla. All they say is they will consider the concerns raised by me (and others). They already lost one sale to me, and they may also lose a second sale to me. I want Tesla to succeed. I gave them deposits about 3 years ago. I believe in the potential of electric vehicles.
I am not suggesting that the service should be cost free. I am stating the cost should have been included in the cost of the car (yes, raise the cost of the car $2K for the purchase of the car), so it is not "visible", just like BMW, Caddy, Toyota, etc. have done, so that when the average person on the street looks at cars to purcahse, they don't go and say that the Caddy (or whatever) includes free service while Tesla is asking me to pay for service. It is the average person on the street that Tesla is ultimately going to need to convince to buy the car if Tesla is to be viable.
Also, don't forget that the majority of average people finance their car. Having the service cost built into the price of the car allows those people to finance the cost of the service. They will not be able to do that by purchasing the service plan 30 days after taking delivery of the car (not taking into account that the cost could be financed on a credit card, which probably has a higher interest rate than a car loan, and avoiding any discussion that if the purchaser can not afford the cost of the service plan, they should not have purchased the car in the first place).�
Oct 11, 2012
Beavis Again, we know all that. I am suggesting that one of you needs to lead an organized effort instead of posting continuously about this issue. One or two isolated cancellations isn't going to get it done. Grab the pitchforks and light the torches. Storm the castle.�
Oct 11, 2012
qwk I can't believe you guys are still debating this.
Just wait until Tesla runs through their deposit holders to finalize, when the list stops, asses are going to pucker. This won't take long since they are more than halfway through. Then what? They definitely underestimated their customer base. I bet most of their reservation holders are not your typical Benz or Beamer drivers like they had hoped.�
Oct 11, 2012
rcc I can't believe you guys are still arguing about this either.
I am a BMW owner. Believe me, the TCO on a Tesla is definitely lower than a BMW. Just an extra oil change a year (because I'm sorry but I'm going to change the oil more than once every 15K miles) costs >$100. I *know* that if I were paying BMW for service, I'd be paying lots more than $600 per year.
I'll agree that bundling the service price into the car is better from a marketing perspective but I'd bet large amounts of $$ that until very recently, they didn't know how much they were going to have to charge for service. They probably still don't know how much the service will truly cost them. I just hope they don't lose much money on it.
The stores are the key to pulling in reservations from BMW/Mercedes/Audi owners. That and great press from the automobile mags. They're getting more stores and great press. I think they're going to be ok as long as they don't get hit by some major disaster.�
Oct 11, 2012
ElSupreme I was and still am fairly vocal that the maintenance cost of the Tesla is much higher than my expectations. I was told they were cheaper than an ICE, but they are not. But bitching and moaning this much about a thousand dollars (you should have been expecting some maintenance costs) over 50,000 miles or 4 years is crazy. Am I sore about it, yes. Is it really going to change my decision? No.
Is what they did outrageous? No. Is what they did unfair? Not really. Could they have gone about it a little better? Probably, but in hindsight you can go back and do just about anything better.�
Oct 11, 2012
efusco My feelings exactly. I might say what they did is a little unfair and unexpected. And I think going with a 1 year 15k mile would have made me feel a bit better as that's my annual mileage, and at 12k I'm looking at an extra fee every 4 years. But, so be it. I knew I was buying a high end luxury sedan and I knew there would be a cost to that. 6 months after getting the car I'll rarely speak of it except when questioned why maintenance isn't cheaper by outsiders.�
Oct 11, 2012
swegman I'm sorry, but I don't think you understand that what I am saying is that tesla shot themselves in the foot. I'm not bitching about having to pay $2K for the service. I'm complaining about the way they did it. I can afford the service cost without any problems. I am fortunate enough to be able to pay for the cars in cash, no loan needed. In fact, I could buy several times that without needing a loan. The point is the average person can not. We are early adopters and many are willing to put up/accept anything Tesla does/says. But that will not fly with the average person who doesn't care if the car is an ICE or an EV and has to take a loan to pay for it. Those people are going to write off tesla because of the need to pay for service. The majority of the population could care less if they buy an electric vehicle or a gas vehicle. They are concerned with whether they will have to pay for service, and when confronted with other manufacturer's cars that offer "free" (included) service, they are voting with their pocketbooks and buying the other cars. I have personally witnessed that. As I indicated above, a friend in AZ looked at tesla just this week and decided to get the Audi because the car includes the service. I have other friends that I suggested the car to that said no because of the service cost fee during the warranty period. This hurts tesla and reduces the chance of them being viable. I want to see tesla succeed, but I am concerned that they are not making wise decisions. I think they may have miscalculated who the average buyer is. The average buyer does not want to pay for service when they can buy a competing car in which service is "included".
Please note that I have no financial interest in tesla, no stock, no intent to buy stock. I am only interested in seeing tesla be viable to produce the best car they are capable of, as it will spur other car makers to innovate, and that benefits everyone.�
Oct 12, 2012
Chas F Your point is well taken.
I will say though that I don't think this will impact the viability of the company as most people buying this class car will grumble but pony up regardless. Those that don't care whether its an EV or an ICE will probably not buy the Model S anyway because of the comparative costs. My guess is that if the service was suddenly changed to be included and you pressed your friend for a decision longer than 10 seconds, she still would not have purchased the S. Lastly, remember that this is a stepping stone in a much larger plan. Gen III will most certainly not have this high service cost and will sell in much higher volumes than the Model S.
Having said that, it still pisses me off to pay $600 a year for inspection, wiper blades, and brake pads (not even). I am still getting the car and will minimize the pain with the prepaid option.�
Oct 12, 2012
swegman Chas, we could go on and on forever on this subject, so this will be my last post on this matter. If what you say is true ("Those that don't care whether its an EV or an ICE will probably not buy the Model S anyway because of the comparative costs"), Tesla is in deep trouble. Elon promoted the car as being the best automobile, not the best EV, and there are only a limited number of people that want the car because it is an EV. The majority of the buying public couldn't care less whether it is an EV or an ICE. They are looking for a car that meets their needs. And to most of them, that includes service for no charge duing the warranty period.
As for my friend, I asked her and she said if service had been included, she definitely would have ordered the Model S. Since it is not, she is buying a loaded A6 tonite at the North Scottsdale Audi dealer for a little over $70K.
I also noted above that several other people I know decided against the Model S because of the service cost issue. It is hard to argue with someone about this issue when they point out that their BMW M5, Caddy XTS, Audi, etc. (and even low cost Toyota) includes service.
We are all intelligent people and know that when all the costs are added (price of car with included service vs. price of car and seperate maintennance fee), they are equal. But people have become accustomed to included service during the warranty period on upscale cars (and even every day cars like Toyota). What i am saying is that Tesla should have raised the MSRP of the car to include the maintennance service fee. Then, the average person on the street would feel the Tesla is comparable to other cars.�
Oct 12, 2012
ElSupreme As a $1900 adder she could have had 50k miles worth of maintenance. Why does it have to be in the cost of the car.�
Oct 12, 2012
efusco I argue that if you can't see that the TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) is dramatically lower for the Tesla than an Audi A6, then the presumption of "intelligent" is questionable. We're really talking about a tiny fraction of cost...she'll spend that $1900 in the first 6 months on the Audi in gas and maintenance.�
Oct 12, 2012
swegman Elsupreme and Evan,
I asked her and she is not paying anything extra for the service. She said service is being included with the car she is getting for the length of the warranty. Whether the Tesla will have a TCO lower than the Audi or another car depends on how long you keep a car. Since she (like I) usually get rid of a car before the warranty expires, the TCO for a model S may not (or may) be lower. I don't know.
In the last 15 or so years, I have kept only 1 car beyond the warranty period; that being a Prius, for which I spend less than $100/year in service costs, not counting the price for new tires. I switch cars often. My wife replaced one Lexus after 11 months, an Infinity after 3 years, and is looking at replacing her current 2.5 year old Lexus . She does this because she likes to drive new cars. I have replaced my Audis and MB just before the warranty expires because I don't want to deal with potential headaches after the warranty expires. The Prius is the only car in the last 15 or so years for which we paid for scheduled maintennance. How long you keep a car has an effect on the TCO. You are probably correct that the Tesla has a lower TCO if you keep it for 10 years if we assume the maintennance fee for years 5-10 remains $600/year. If you replace cars every 3 to 4 years, it may not be true, depending on how much you drive. Personally, I will probably put about 6k to 7K on the model S each year. So, over a 4 year period that would be 24,000 to 28,000 miles. The difference in price between gas and electricity may not offset the maintennance fee cost. I personally have never bought a car based on its gas mileage, but rather on the fact that i liked the car as a whole. With respect to the Prius, I was attracted to it not because of the gas mileage, but because I would only have to fill up every 3-4 weeks.�
Oct 12, 2012
dsm363 For a 25 mpg car with gas at $4.50/gallon you're looking at $4,500 in fuel over those 4 years or $2,250 for a 50mpg car if I did the math right (for 25,000 miles). You'll spend $1000 dollars over 4 years for the Model S assuming 4 cents per mile of electricity.
If the psychological effect of paying for the service plan really freaks people out and causes them to not buy the Model S then they should build part or all of the cost into the car by raising the base price. It seems that the service plan could totally or mostly be evened out by fuel savings for most people.�
Oct 12, 2012
ElSupreme This is irrational behavior. And in my experience trying to cater to this ends up being harder than it is worth. With the one exception of trying to take advantage of such irrational behavior.�
Oct 12, 2012
ckessel If you switch cars that regularly, I'm not sure what the point is in even thinking about TCO since money is not much of a factor in your car ownership priorities.
I'm not judging those priorities, just pointing out TCO doesn't mean much when the O part of that is so short.�
Oct 12, 2012
Beavis Uh, no it's not. You know that it is time to stop posting when you say you're going to stop posting but you don't stop posting.�
Oct 12, 2012
swegman Dsm363,
It does freak people out. That is why I said up the MSRP of the car. As another example, my boss (owner of the patent firm I am with) makes $500K plus per year. Throws money around like crazy when we take out clients and for his personal pleasure. Yet, when he purchased his Porche Panamera at list price (about $120K), the one thing he negotiated was that maintennance be included. So yes, it is my opinion that the majority of people do not want to incur an additional service cost after paying $50k plus for a car. It may not be rational, but that is the way it is. Thus, my suggestion that it be built into the price of the car.
BTW, are you paying $4.50/gallon for gas? What state are you in? Iin AZ, my friends told me that gas is about $3.50/gallon. In VA, I paid $3.58 the last time I filled up (about 3-4 weeks ago).
Ckessel, I indicated that I dont buy a car based on TCO. Someone else raised that issue.
Kroneal, I respect your opinion (and everyone else's opinion), but this is a public forum. I never tell someone to, for example, stop posting, you are stupid or shut up (you did not say any of this). If I don't like or am not interested in a thread anymore, I stop reading it, while others can continue to post. I want Tesla to succeed. I dont think they will if they don't make some changes to be competitive with other car makers. They face enough obstacles, what with 4 states (which includes Arizona) asserting that tesla's stores violate their laws (something you think Tesla would have looked into before opening stores).�
Oct 12, 2012
dsm363 I agree with you that they should just include it in the MSRP. Would take that issue off the table.
I probably should have used $3.75 or so for gas prices. Gas will likely continue get more expensive overtime. This is interesting though
InflationData: Gasoline Inflation�
Oct 12, 2012
Norbert I don't think they'll raise the MSRP, though. They might wait until battery prices go down and then, instead of reducing MSRP, perhaps include service for the warranty period.
Another thought on a frequent argument here, that maintenance/repair costs for EVs are supposed to be less costly:
While that is probably true in general, it may not be true for Tesla at all, for a few years, as it will have a lot of fixed costs (for building up a service network targeted for future volumes and geography, and operating it) while the volume of actually sold/serviced cars is still small. I'd expect that their service department, with investments/hiring/etc included, will make a loss for quite some time.
Another thought: comparing $475/year to $600/year with Ranger included, that seems $125 for at least one Ranger service. I'd doubt that covers the average cost for Tesla, given that there will be a lot of Model S's away, some far away, from the existing centers. Plus the training cost for all the new hires.�
Oct 12, 2012
phx182flyer Filled the Merc up last night. Premium is 3.97/Gal here in PHX.�
Oct 12, 2012
v12 to 12v Be grateful you have inexpensive gas until your Tesla arrives. I haven't seen premium under $4 for a long time.�
Oct 12, 2012
swegman Dsm363, interesting article.
Phx182flyer, I was referring to the price for gas in the Gilbert, Queen Creek, Chandler, Mesa area. I believe Phoenix proper may be higher, as is Scottsdale.�
Oct 12, 2012
kcveins Agreed. Premium is $4.20 in the burbs and $4.50 in the city (Chicago)�
Oct 12, 2012
swegman I was in Chicago and Madison, WI this summer looking at colleges with my son. I was surprised that gas was more than $0.50/gallon more expensive in Chicago than in Madison, with the price in Madison being comparable to the price of gas in Northern VA.�
Oct 13, 2012
swegman Price for gas in Gilbert, AZ at 9:30 am this morning was $3.53 for regular and $3.70 for premiun according to a friend that was filling up his Lexus at Costco. Yes, he drives a Lexus but buys gas at Costco.�
Oct 13, 2012
Lloyd San Diego $4.93 regular and $5.39 premium�
Oct 14, 2012
dsm363 I didn't mean to take this off into a discussion about gas prices. Just trying to show that the higher than anticipated service plan is lessened by gas savings.�
Oct 20, 2012
neroden If so, Tesla should have issued a correction by now. It hasn't. There's going to be lawsuits. With only 2500 Roadsters, there weren't enough buyers to run into people who were willing to sue over such things. With 20,000 Model S per year, someone's going to go ahead and demand their rights, and Tesla's going to have a big, nasty fight on their hands. Unless they shape up.
This makes me uncomfortable as a stockholder.
�
Oct 20, 2012
ckessel I have to say I have no idea what you're talking about. Lawsuits over what? What are those 20,000 people a year going to get upset about? There's nothing in the warranty to get upset about.�
Oct 20, 2012
rdunniii IBM lost the legal battle to require manufacturers or any other specified providers maintenance in order to maintain warranties or support 25 years ago.�
Oct 21, 2012
hcsharp Tesla's policy with the Roadster is different. Tesla made it clear to me before I bought mine that skipping the annual service would NOT void the warranty unless it caused damage otherwise covered by warranty. In fact there are lots of Roadster owners who don't pay for the annual service and Tesla is fine with that. Their warranties are still intact. They need to have the same policy with the Model S. In addition, most Roadster owners have been treated very well by Tesla service. So there's lots of good will and not much incentive to sue.�
Oct 21, 2012
Norbert I'd speculate that in addition to free wipers, you'll also get some parts exchanged for free which Tesla finds to have minor issues (as opposed to serious ones which would require a recall). And they'll need to examine the cars as a matter of post-delivery QA, given the pioneering technology.
Aside from legal questions, if anyone else than Tesla would do the service, they would surely want it to be, in the interest of the customer, a Tesla-certified technician who is in, and remains in, close contact with Tesla. And those don't exist yet.
- - - Updated - - -
I think the difference to the Roadster is that Roadster owners who buy the first low-volume electric exotic sports car, are prepared to accommodate the unique requirements of the situation. Whereas with the Model S, Tesla has to deal with a mid-volume situation and will be getting ready for the high-volume Gen3.�
Oct 21, 2012
jerry33 While that statement is true, I don't see how it's relevant. Every car manufacturer has service requirements that if not done will will void the part of the warranty the particular required service covers. Telsa isn't doing anything different here that I can see. The problem is that the Model S maintenance costs are more than some "high maintenance" cars and Tesla has said that the Model S is "low maintenance" so it appears as if Tesla has done some false advertising. At the very least they have set up a set of expectations about service that they aren't going to meet. I don't see this being a problem later on because those who order after the first 6,000 cars have been delivered will have everything laid out and they can choose to buy or not buy.�
Oct 21, 2012
Norbert That seems a different discussion than the one I commented on, although they are not completely separate.
Regarding the price, I thought a much earlier post from Nigel showed that the price is in the range of those from BMW/Mercedes once the initial service period is over. Personally, I don't know much about service price, except that my last car (GM) required oil changes (synthetique recommended) every 3,000 miles. A warning light would light up otherwise, and oil would get low after maybe 5,000 miles. At something like $35, that alone was already $140 per 12,000 miles.
Tesla repeats the low maintenance claim on the very blog in which it announces the price, and argues that the price includes software updates, wear & tear parts, and Ranger service (which is probably more expensive than the cost allocated).
Having said that I don't know much a about service costs, I think the price is ok *if* the checks are really thorough, and perhaps also includes small non-scheduled improvements. And additionally, as long as the tech is new, which almost always causes costs. You might think: why should the customer pay for the tech being new, but then: who else should pay for it? And since Tesla still needs to grow in terms of service centers etc., that's difficult to compare to the prices an established manufacturer is able to offer.
PLus: the Superchargers are free, and charging for them would be difficult.�
Oct 21, 2012
jerry33 I'm not really disagreeing with you here. The price is likely fair for what they intend to do, but the perception is that it's high because the actual work hasn't been spelled out and because it's supposed to be a low maintenance car. Not everyone who has ordered a Model S has ever or would ever even consider purchasing a BMW, Mercedes, or Jaguar so the service price for them wouldn't be applicable. $600/year is what my current car has cost, including tires, over 140,000 miles (that's about 16,000 miles per year average). Without tires, about $400/year. If I drive the same distance in the Model S that works out to $633/year (with the $495 prepaid plan). Of course, I intend to drive the Model S a lot more�
Oct 21, 2012
Norbert It's just $475 !�
Oct 21, 2012
Chregu I'm still wondering what kind of oil you're using in the USA... or what's wrong with either our european or your motors
I chance my motor-oil every 20'000 miles, my car wants it like this. In addition, 1l every 10'000 miles�
Oct 21, 2012
bluetinc Chregu, I can't see where you are from, but perhaps this is a units difference? You have both miles and l in your quote. Do you mean 20,000 miles or 20,000 km?
Peter
�
Oct 21, 2012
swegman I agree. My MB oil change requirement is once a year or 13,000 miles, which ever comes first. Toyota specifies oil changes at 10,000 mile intervals in the latest generation Prius. Lexus specifies oil changes at 7500 mile intervals.
It used to be recommended to change oil at 3 month/3,000 mile intervals. That was many, many years ago. Oil has improved, as have filters and engines. I don't think it is necessary to change oil every 3,000 miles anymore, especially if you use Mobil 1 oil.�
Oct 21, 2012
jerry33 Bear in mind that there are now many kinds of Mobil1 oil and not all of them are suitable for long change intervals. The best oils meet both ACEA A5/B5 and ILSAC GF5. If they meet these standards it will say so on the bottle. Purchasing oil is a lot like purchasing bread. The front of the bread will say all natural, multi grain, whole wheat, etc. but if the first ingredient isn't 100% whole wheat, or some other whole grain., then it's just white bread. Oil will say things like long lasting, synthetic, etc. but if it doesn't meet the highest standards, it's not what you should be using for long change intervals.�
Oct 21, 2012
spatterso911 Best analogy for oil I've seen yet.�
Oct 22, 2012
Chregu I mean 20'000 miles, roughly rated from the 30'000km intervall given by my VW scirocco�
Oct 29, 2012
Sig698 Not to add to the confusion, but my delivery specialist seemed VERY certain that service costs were covered for the first 4 years of ownership. When he told me this, I asked him if it wasn't in fact $600 for every year/12k miles, and specifically mentioned that was only after the first 4 years. I won't count on the free servicing as of now, though. The website seems fairly clear about the costs, but perhaps this is one of the signature perks they had in mind?�
Oct 29, 2012
dsm363 That would be good news. Maybe they'll include it in the Signatures but drop the price for everyone else.�
Nov 7, 2012
Stealth MD Servicing
Can someone please explain to me how Tesla can justify charging $600 for an annual/every 12k miles maintence fee to service the car when the whole advantage to owning an electric vehicle is suppose to be virtually maintence free?
There's no reason for an oil change, spark plug replacement, timing belts or anything else that's in a conventional gasoline or hybrid vehicle. Even though Tesla mentions it's for their "concierge service" and the fact that they "inspect" the wheel bearings, and run diagnostics, I don't think it's fair for Tesla to basically advertise that their vehicles are maintence-free compared to their gasoline competitors and then REQUIRE you to bring the car in for "maintence" otherwise it voids the warrant. Also, if you bring the car in to a third party for maintence, it also voids the warrenty; the car MUST be serviced at a Tesla Service Center.
For comparison purposes, another all-electric vehicle, the Nissan Leaf, does not have a maintence schedule as strict as this. All the Leaf requires is basic replacement of wear and tear items (tires, wipers, etc.), but they definatley don't require you to bring the car in for service. I think this is really ridiculous. What are your thoughts on this?�
Nov 7, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Stealth MD, discussion regarding the service plans goes here:
Warranty/Servicing - official Tesla responses (incl GeorgeB)�
Nov 7, 2012
Stealth MD Can someone please explain to me how Tesla can justify charging $600 for an annual/every 12k miles maintence fee to service the car when the whole advantage to owning an electric vehicle is suppose to be virtually maintence free?
There's no reason for an oil change, spark plug replacement, timing belts or anything else that's in a conventional gasoline or hybrid vehicle. Even though Tesla mentions it's for their "concierge service" and the fact that they "inspect" the wheel bearings, and run diagnostics, I don't think it's fair for Tesla to basically advertise that their vehicles are maintence-free compared to their gasoline competitors and then REQUIRE you to bring the car in for "maintence" otherwise it voids the warrant. Also, if you bring the car in to a third party for maintence, it also voids the warrenty; the car MUST be serviced at a Tesla Service Center.
For comparison purposes, another all-electric vehicle, the Nissan Leaf, does not have a maintence schedule as strict as this. All the Leaf requires is basic replacement of wear and tear items (tires, wipers, etc.), but they definatley don't require you to bring the car in for service. I think this is really ridiculous. What are your thoughts on this?�
Nov 7, 2012
Mycroft I believe there are two reasons for the charge, as stated earlier in the thread:
1. Tesla doesn't have enough data on their technology, so they would rather err on the side of conservative wrt maintenance.
2. Tesla has to roll out lots of maintenance centers around the world, virtually from scratch. That's going to be very expensive. They would rather amortize this cost into the maintenance plans and allow the auto sales to have a higher profit ratio.�
Nov 7, 2012
Todd Burch I agree with Mycroft, with one addition: They are also a new car company, with unknowns regarding quality, and if there's an issue they don't want to be caught with their pants down and take a massive loss (somewhat related to new technology, as Mycroft mentioned).
It's not an issue with EV reliability in general, and seems to have almost everything to do with new technology and new car company. It's a bit of an early adopter tax. If you don't dig it, you could of course wait a few years and hopefully the cost will decrease or go away...but then you miss out on all that time driving a Tesla�
Nov 7, 2012
RDoc Has Tesla actually implemented the prepaid service plan? AFAIK people who've gotten their cars haven't had to, or indeed been able to purchase it. For that matter, is Tesla even telling owners that they're going to have to buy it to maintain their warranty?
I wonder if Tesla is rethinking this.�
Nov 7, 2012
NigelM I asked when my car was delivered and was told that I would be contacted sometime soon. I was also told that I have 30 days to decide on buying the plan, starting from the date I'm contacted. The 30 days doesn't start from the delivery date.
I was informed about the need to do 12k inspections. No pressure whatsoever to buy a plan.�
Nov 7, 2012
Andrew Wolfe I was not permitted to buy it. Tesla said they would get back to me when it goes on sale and it would probably come from the service dept., not sales.�
Nov 7, 2012
Todd Burch Sounds like it might be under their internal legal review, perhaps?
Edit: The longer they can delay, the more time they have to evaluate how production cars are performing on the road, giving them a better gauge of what they'll need to charge for it--or a better gauge of what the terms of the plan should be. Maybe they're buying their time with it too.�
Jan 7, 2013
montgom626 Model S warranty
If this has already been answered, please excuse my question. If warranty work has to be done, who pays for the car to be picked up or the Ranger to drive to the car if the problem prevents the MS from being driven?
- - - Updated - - -
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/10150-Warranty-Servicing-official-Tesla-responses-%28incl-GeorgeB%29/page3
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/10150-Warranty-Servicing-official-Tesla-responses-%28incl-GeorgeB%29/page3?p=187010&viewfull=1#post187010
09-17-2012, 02:43 AM #24
GeorgeB
Hi everyone,
To say there has been �a little� discussion about Joost�s service blog would be putting it lightly. Joost�s blog is about automotive service that takes care of Model S owners everyday, while at the same time highlighting the ability for Model S to have features added, even after you take delivery. It�s about things like Tesla Ranger Service that Roadster owners love, and packages that reduce the cost of owning Model S for 4 years or 50,000 miles. It seems that what most people focused on was quite different. It became a focus mostly on what is included and not included, and if you have to do Annual Inspections in order to keep your warranty valid. I will answer both questions in this follow up post.
First a few quick explanations� I think it is important to understand a few things.
When a company posts a blog, it gets reviewed internally by a lot of people. If the blog in questions says we are going to �do something� as a company, it is typically requested there be a footnote and/or disclaimer at the bottom of the page covering the restrictions and conditions surrounding that offering. For example, if we say we provide �Tire Rotation�, the review team requests that we say something like this at the bottom of the page: �Tire Rotation may or may not extend the life of your tires. The recommended frequency of rotation can be found in the Tire Care Booklet you may or may not receive when your car is delivered. Tire Rotation should be done within 500 miles of the frequency designated in the Tire Care Booklet. Tire Rotation must be done at an authorized Tesla Service Center, or a designate, as may change from time to time. The obligation to cover Tire Rotation may or may not continue on future models and can be changed at any time without notice.� I am not poking fun at this process, I am simply stating how the world works today. If you could have seen the list of footnotes and disclaimers at the bottom of Joost�s first draft, you would have been quite entertained. The disclaimers and footnotes were as long as the blog itself. As a result, many specifics were deleted from the blog, and it was moved to a higher-level message. In this follow up post, I am going to discuss, at a high level, a few services and coverages that all have specific conditions and restrictions surrounding them. There are no footnotes or disclaimers in the post, but you need to read everything in this post as having restrictions and conditions of some sort.
Next, there were a lot of questions about the warranty being void if you don�t do Annual Inspections. I�d like to go sideways for a moment and tell a story from my past when I worked for �a computer company.� Very early in the design phase of our retail stores, it was decided that there would be a Service Desk in every store. This �Service Bar� would complement the Tech Support phone lines already in place at Headquarters. Here is a story about how this worked one day� A customer called the Tech Support phone line and said his computer was broken. The phone support Tech asked what the problem was. He said his display was broken. The Tech asked him what it looked like. He said there were lines across the entire display and it was fuzzy. The Tech asked when this happened, and was told that it happened �last night�. The Tech then asked if he could connect remotely to the computer to run a few diagnostics and see a few configuration details, which he did. They restarted the computer several times and adjusted the display settings several times. After about an hour of questions, diagnostics and discussion, the phone Tech explained that there was nothing further he could do, and suggested an appointment at the Service Desk in the nearby store. The customer was happy to do so. He showed up for the appointment in the store and met with the �Service Bar Tech.� He recounted the discussions with the phone Tech. The Service Tech in the store then opened the computer and said, �Your display is broken�. The customer said �That�s is what I was trying to tell the guy on the phone��It turns out that the glass display on his laptop was shattered. There was nothing wrong with the rest of the computer. The point is this�sometimes you need to physically see things in order to fully understand the situation.
How does this relate to our warranty? �Seeing� your car at regular intervals is an important part of warranty service for several reasons. I�ll cover two of them.
First, catching things early: As Joost said in his blog, we cover wear and tear parts, like brake pads. I don�t know how many of you have ever gone in for brake pad replacement on your car and received a phone call saying, �You drove too long on these pads and now you have to replace your rotors, too.� This increases the cost of �brake service� significantly. Candidly, we want to prevent that from happening. We want to see your car annually, or every 12,500 miles, so we can choose when to replace parts that have impact on other parts. You will not be paying additional for these replacements. We cover all these costs as part of your Annual Inspection fee. All we are asking is that we have the chance to review and replace wear and tear parts before they impact others, and the only way to do this is by �seeing� the car.
Second, there are some items that have nothing to do with mileage, but are affected by �time.� For instance, brake fluid and some coolants dilute slowly over time. We have properly �timed� replacement of these items as part of the �Annual or 12,500 mile� schedule.
When you combine these two items together, some that are �mileage dependent� and some that are �time dependent�, hopefully you will understand why we need to see your car at regular intervals. So, to answer the question clearly about whether failure to do Annual or 12,500 mile Inspections voids your warranty, yes it does. We need to see your car to make sure all covered wear and tear parts are visually inspected and replaced, as needed, before they grow into bigger issues. And we want to make sure things affected by �time� are replaced on their appropriate schedule. This may not be a popular answer, but it is the best way for us to make sure you and your car are being taken care of properly.
So that brings us to the long list of questions about �what is covered?� Let me run thru a high level list. As I said above, all these items have certain conditions and limitations, but here you go:
Here is what is covered for 4 years or 50,000 miles as long as you do Annual or 12,500 mile Inspections:
ROADSIDE ASSISTANCE
- INCLUDED: 4 years or 50,000 miles, 24/7.
TOWING:
- INCLUDED: If your car has a breakdown and cannot be driven, we pay for towing, up to 50 miles, to a Tesla Service Center, your home, or some other secure place. We will then assess your car to determine the best way to repair it.
- INCLUDED: If your car is towed to somewhere other than a Tesla Service Center, we will determine if we think the issue can be fixed by a Tesla Ranger. If the answer is yes, we will dispatch a Tesla Ranger to fix your car, and there will be no charge for this Ranger visit.
- INCLUDED: If your car is towed to somewhere other than a Tesla Service Center, and we determine it cannot be fixed by a Tesla Ranger, we will transport your car to a place where it can be serviced and return it to you at no additional charge, regardless of how far away you live from the Tesla Service Center.
WEAR AND TEAR PARTS
- INCLUDED: Everything except tires. Joost already identified things like wiper blades and brake pads. These are covered. There were lots of questions about things like headlights, taillights, and other things that people traditionally expect to wear out or perhaps burn out during a 4-year period. All these things are covered. Basically, everything is covered, except tires, as long as you let us do Inspections as scheduled.
LOANER CAR
- INCLUDED: If your service is estimated to take over four hours, and is being done at one of our Tesla Service Centers, we provide a Loaner Car at no additional charge. A Loaner Car is not provided for Tesla Ranger Service.
WHEEL ALIGNMENT
- INCLUDED: This needs to be done at a Tesla Service Center (not by a Ranger). If you have your Annual or 12,500 mile Inspection done at a Tesla Service Center, we will include wheel alignment at no charge. If you have your Annual or 12,500 mile Inspection done by a Tesla Ranger, we cannot do alignment service at that time, but the next time you are near a Tesla Service Center, just let us know in advance, and we will do an alignment for you at that time at no additional charge.
TIRE ROTATION
- INCLUDED: Tire rotation is provided at no additional charge, but must also be done at a Tesla Service Center. This is just like wheel alignment, if you have a Ranger do your Annual or 12,500 mile Inspection, just let us know ahead of time and we�ll do tire rotation when you have a chance to stop by one of our service centers. And there will be no charge.
SOFTWARE UPDATES
- INCLUDED: Not much to say here� Software updates done at a Service Center and/or remotely are included. There were several questions about getting software updates if you don�t purchase a connectivity plan. Yes, you will still get software updates if you do not purchase a connectivity plan.
SUMMARY
I think this is a very comprehensive plan. As long as you let us check out your car annually or every 12,500 miles, there�s not much else to cover�except tires. And we�ll even align and rotate them at no additional charge!
SPECIFIC QUESTIONS
I think the above is fairly clear, but I want to make sure, so what I�d like to do next is answer a few very specific questions asked by some of our loyal supporters on the forum. I want to make sure everything is clear. Some of the questions are very direct, and you may not like the answer, but I�d rather answer them and bring clarity to the issue than leave them open for further speculation.
@DISCODUCKY, @shokunin: �What I will forfeit if I do NOT buy a service plan?�
You do not have to buy a pre-paid service plan. The pre-paid plans were designed for those who want to reduce their costs by pre-paying, or get unlimited Ranger visits� but you do not have to buy a pre-paid plan at all. On our website [http://www.teslamotors.com/service], there is a chart at the bottom of the Service page which shows various ways to pay for service. You can buy a pre-paid plan, but it also specifically says you can also pay annually when you bring your car in for its Annual or 12,500 mile Inspection. You will not forfeit anything as long as you get your car serviced in line with any one of the options shown.
@WONG.PETER �Is an annual inspection required to maintain the warranty?�
Yes. If you do not buy a pre-paid service plan or bring your car in for Inspection, when due, you will forfeit your warranty. This is no different than any other car manufacturer and is necessary to make sure your car is operating properly and to replace any wear and tear parts we think might need to be replaced proactively.
@ANDYSTJ: �What happens after 50,000 miles?�
We plan to offer an Extended Service Plan to cover beyond 4 years or 50,000 miles.
@DR CHILL: �What will happen to Tesla owners that do not pay for these annual inspections from Tesla? Can they take their car to an independent shop without affecting warranty coverage?�
You will forfeit your warranty if you do not do Annual or 12,500 mile Inspections, when due. You will forfeit your warranty if you take your Model S to an independent shop for vehicle service and/or repairs. Your car needs to be serviced by a current, Tesla Certified mechanic to make sure it is working properly and to maintain the warranty on your car.
@DAVIDWSMITH, @SCOLE04, @BEAKER, @JOHN56: �What, specifically, is covered and what is not? What is �wear and tear� exactly?�
Wear and tear is anything that wears out or stops working with daily use. Wiper blades, brake pads, brake fluid, and light bulbs are all included. Everything but tires is included, and we even include alignment and tire rotation to help them last as long as possible.
@Todd Burch: �If it needs to go on a lift, do they trailer it back to the service center? Will they return it to you after as well?�
If your car breaks down and is not able to drive, transport both ways is on us (please see above under �towing� for more detail).
@jimbakker666: �If it�s so low maintenance, won�t rangers rarely have to fix anything?�
Rangers are there to provide convenience for those who want to use them, and to provide confidence to those who do not live near a Tesla Service Center. Tesla Rangers can come to your home or office to perform an Annual or 12,500 mile Inspection, warranty work, or almost any other work that doesn�t require a vehicle lift.
I hope this post helps clarify the majority of questions about Tesla Service. I think if you step back and look at our plans, you will see that they are not simply �wiper blades and fluids� as one post suggested. We provide 24/7 Roadside Assistance, Towing, Loaner Cars, Wear and Tear parts, Wheel Alignments, Tire Rotation, Software Updates, and something I haven�t even touched on that seems to have been totally lost in the shuffle from Joost�s blog � New Features.
I know some of you were very clear in your posts that you don�t care about �creep�, or some of the other features that we are planning to add, but perhaps another family member, or someone else who drives the car from time-to-time might like one of them. If nothing else, the added features might be attractive to a future buyer when the time comes to sell your car, which might make it worth more at that time. There�s no way to tell, but we think the ability to continue to enhance your car with new features, even after you take delivery, is a big step forward and one that sets Model S apart from all other cars. We believe �New Features� are an important part of Tesla Service.
Thanks to all of you who chimed in with questions. When all is said and done, our goal is very straightforward, to provide you with a great ownership experience. We have tried to define a service program that does exactly that. One that takes care of you, your family, and your car. One that gives you all-inclusive cost options and options surrounding where you can have your car serviced. But even if you don�t choose one of the pre-paid plans, you know right now how much it will cost to fully maintain your Model S for the first 4 years or 50,000 miles. All you need to do is let us visit with your car from time-to-time at defined intervals and everything else is included�except tires
GeorgeB
Last edited by NigelM; 09-19-2012 at 08:57 PM. Reason: Fixed website link�
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Jan 7, 2013
gregincal Good to know.�
Jan 8, 2013
David_Cary Reading this really makes me question my reservation. I'm not sure how I feel about the required inspections anyway but their blatant disregard for warranty law has me wondering what else they blatantly disregard. And to claim this is how every car manufacturer does it is completely false.�
Jan 8, 2013
Al Sherman It's amazing to me that two people can see things SO differently. George's letter makes me want to reserve another S. It's mind boggling to think that there's a car company with this kind of incredible service. How could you not want to sign up immediately after reading that letter?�
Jan 8, 2013
yobigd20 ^^^^ Total opposite of how I felt. I've never seen this kind of commitment or generosity from any other manufacturer that I've bought cars from. (that includes Chevy, Nissan, Toyota, Ford, and Land Rover). I hope all other manufacturers put an emphasis on customer service like Tesla is doing here. What they are saying seems like common sense to me, common courtesy that you *should* see in America but you don't. Everyone else's focus is on nickel and diming the customer so that their pockets can be a bit fuller while their smiling all the way to the bank, leaving the customer feeling screwed. Tesla is actually trying to, and IMHO, successfully laying the foundation for a whole new framework of car ownership experience. I don't understand and can't fathom all the negatively that people have about Tesla. To me it seems those people are just whining and trying to nickel and dime Tesla instead, or they have a hard time accepting that there's more to this world then how big you've made your bank account by screwing others. I actually appreciate their ingenuity, hard work, and everything else their doing for us and I'm ecstatic about getting my Model S and being a part of this revolutionary experience.�
Jan 8, 2013
Enadler The plan as presented by George is exceedingly comprehensive. Annual visits for service to maintain a valid warranty is warranted in a vehicle like this. What I do object to is the fact that they have basically simply added a mandatory option to the car purchase. Instead of charging separately this should ave been included in the price of this very expensive automobile. These are things that irritate me just include it, raise the price $1500 but include it!�
Jan 8, 2013
ChrisgG Well be greatfull, here the fines for speading are based on how much you're too fast. If you'd be caught with warp 1 it would be 1,079,252,729 km/h too fast. you'd probably get the death sentene then. But then. you'd have problems with the next curve anyway�
Jan 8, 2013
bbmertz +1 Particularly since it covers every single wear and tear item except tires (e.g., headlamps, brakes, wiper blades, etc.). Also agree that it would have been better if it had been included in the price, at least for the first few years like BMW.�
Jan 8, 2013
byt I'm super happy to hear I can extend the warrantee beyond the initial 4 years and will get this for that piece of mind alone on my $110k Model S!!!�
Jan 8, 2013
sublimaze1 It's AppleCare for your Tesla. Plain and Simple. I have never bought an Apple product (except my iPod shuffle long time ago) without the AppleCare. I have owned nine Apple products, and my kids six. To me, it makes sense. If I didn't have the money, it would be a different story. But if I didn't have the money, I would have bought a Volt.�
Jan 8, 2013
Enadler @Suplimaze1 not quite true. Applecare is an extended/enhanced warranty program. The regular warranty exists and is active without purchasing Applecare. With the Tesla warranty program you are required to purchase the service program to have a valid warranty. I guess you could read it that Tesla has a 1 year 12,500 mile warranty and to extend it beyond that time you will need to buy the service program.
As I stated earlier I would have much preferred the program added to the cost of the initial car. Tesla was so laser focused on under $50k that they stripped this and other necessary items out. I think they should have simply had a base car at under $50k and then had all the other models include the other necessary items. I would feel less nickel and dimed. Yes the total cost would remain the same just my feeling of being mislead. It is sort of like booking a hotel room only to find out that there is a mandatory resort fee.�
Jan 8, 2013
brianman Thanks for sharing your opinion here. All honest opinions are definitely welcome.
Can you elaborate a little on the specific concerns? More specifically on "disregard for warranty law". We've heard from a few forum members on that topic but is your concern derived from those posts or from your own interpretation of the law.�
Jan 8, 2013
David_Cary Does it make sense that they offer a warranty and then charge $600 a year to keep it in force? Does that meet anyone's sniff test for fair? No of course not.
Fine if they can prove that because the car didn't get an inspection, something horrible happened as a direct result - fine.
But to make a warranty null and void for failure to them to get $600 a year for doing very little - that is a violation of Magnuson-Moss act as interpreted by people on this forum and my understanding of it prior to this forum.
My biggest concern is the lack of a court that has a standing should I have an issue. In NC, I would just contact my AG but I am not sure they have standing to get Tesla to do anything....When Honda didn't want to replace my battery, a call/email to the AG and I had a new battery on the way in 2 days. Where do we sue Tesla if we have to? CA? FL? Neither place I want to go for that.�
Jan 8, 2013
bonnie Have you read the actual warranty or are you basing your conclusions on forum posts?�
Jan 8, 2013
strider This has been discussed (I suggest you actually wade through all 500 posts in this thread). GeorgeB IS NOT A LAWYER. His statements on this board DO NOT trump the ACTUAL WRITTEN WARRANTY that is delivered w/ the car. The actual written warranty is what you and Tesla are bound to, not GeorgeB's statements. The actual written warranty is written like every other car manufacturer's warranty - that periodic maintenance is required and that it must be done by a trained mechanic.
At some point there will be competent 3rd party shops that will be able to do EV maintenance and when that happens you will be free to take your car there and if something break Tesla will have to fix it under warranty. But until then Tesla is your only option.�
Jan 8, 2013
kevincwelch This is the key.
What George says in person or on the forums may rationalize the intent of the cost or the relationship, but the contract that you sign contains the stipulations of the agreement between you and Tesla. The contract and warranty does not specifically state what George is specifying. Agree completely with Strider on this issue here.
At some point, someone will know enough about Tesla vehicles to be competent to do servicing as needed. Whether they will have the complete understanding of the electronics and software, who knows. But right now, it's only Tesla.�
Jan 8, 2013
GSP Earlier in this thread, it was sounding like I could not even rotate my own tires. This makes a lot more sense.
If I do the periodic maintenance in a competent manner, the warranty is still valid. And even if the maintenance is not even done, the warranty is sill valid for unaffected items. An example would be that a failed PEM would still be replaced under warranty, even if the tires were never rotated.
Presumably Tesla parts, special tools, training, and service info will be available for anyone willing to pay for it.
GSP�
Jan 8, 2013
huntjo It's fun to revive old threads!�
Jan 8, 2013
dsm363 I'm sure you can do most of the basic maintenance yourself like rotating tires but certain things like the battery checks and other diagnostic equipment can only be done by Tesla at this point so you basically have no choice.�
Jan 8, 2013
stopcrazypp Exactly. We've discussed this over and over again, but it definitely needs to be pointed out.
I suggest people read the actual warranty before coming to conclusions:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/9578-Warranty-(esp-driving-through-floods!)
What GeorgeB is correct about is that right now there is really no practical alternative to the $600 service (simply because there is no third party EV servicing industry), but it's not explicitly required for your warranty to be valid (that would be illegal without an FTC exemption).�
Jan 9, 2013
David_Cary The thread did get merged so that is how I jumped in. 500 posts is a little intimidating. The clarity on GeorgeB's words vs written contract is helpful.
Does anyone know what $600 buys you?�
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