Jan 19, 2016
ohmman It could be argued that you're taking the "long view" on your Tesla in that you are looking for updates to the software you purchased. It can also be argued that you're asking to keep the initial software, but have them "fixed", similar to a repair. I think the truth lies somewhere in between those things. However - the Nav works as it did when I bought it, maybe a little better with the traffic avoidance algorithm. It works significantly better than my 2013 Honda Odyssey. I knew going into my car that CarPlay was unavailable, and nobody promised it to me. I work around it. I agree they should implement it as a business strategy, but they should prioritize it for new builds.
In case I'm not being clear, I support your arguments and I think you make good points. I would also like to see a lot of the updates and fixes you would. I think our only difference is in how entitled we each feel about getting those updates (or, to phrase it differently, how responsible we feel Tesla is in providing them). I would guess in general, that's the scale of disagreement in this thread.�
Jan 19, 2016
msnow My NAV works as it did when I bought the car too, that is to say it's still terrible. What happened to the promised map updates? No one told me that it was going to be an issue and Tesla IS responsible for providing them for 7 years. I'm "entitled" to a functional navigation system that I can count on. I understand this is not a universal issue and I'm not sure why that is but in every poll, discussion and forum post that speaks to these things the items that AmpedRealtor wrote about are in everyone's "top 5". I shouldn't have to "work around" these problems by using my phone to handle my navigation and music, they should just work. A world class car should have a world class NAV and media player.�
Jan 19, 2016
AmpedRealtor I don't feel entitled. If this were any other car, certainly nothing would ever change from the day I purchased the car. It's within Tesla's power to address these shortcomings even though, technically, it doesn't have to. I do feel that my user experience has been slightly downgraded with the version 7 software. That spotlights, for me, the impression that Tesla is changing for the sake of change rather than out of a desire to actually improve functionality and usability. Can we agree that we needed better navigation and media apps more than we needed a new, flattened, and somewhat regressive UI? When I see this kind of stuff happening, I wonder why they can't just focus on giving us the best navigation and media system in the world and then brag about it. Sure, it won't beat a Lambo on the race track, but it does speak to things that are important to many consumers.
Tesla has clearly made a choice, I just wish they had chosen differently.�
Jan 19, 2016
ArtInCT As a committed observer here for over a year I can say that from what I have seen regarding software, it appears that Tesla Motors is on a dual path of innovation and enhancement. Certainly certain software versions are more biased to new features. But there have been some tweaks and fixes to certain functions.
I just wish that Tesla Motors would more openly engage the owner base via some manner to help us steer their enhancement direction.
They know what they have to do as far as the innovation is concerned.�
Jan 19, 2016
omarsultan While I am not sure about Julian's specific examples, mapping data and usage data is viewed as a competitive advantage for the types of scenarios he points out. It is the reason Apple split from Google and has bought 9 companies with mapping related technologies, Uber spent $3B on HERE and, would venture, why Tesla is doing its own thing. In Tesla's case, each of our cars is collecting all sorts of metadata about the routes we travel that will make AP work better for everyone and as AP technology becomes more widespread, the quality of the underlying mapping data is going to help differentiate one manufacturer from another one. BTW, the "scout" vehicle example is similar to something you can already to in Waze, so it does not seem like much of a stretch to imagine our cars could do the same thing automatically.
Link: http://fortune.com/2015/10/16/how-tesla-autopilot-learns/�
Jan 19, 2016
ohmman I'm sorry for the negative implication that carried. I tried to word it in a couple of ways to keep it from sounding accusatory, but apparently failed. Linguistically, though, I think it's the right word.
We already agree, I think. I do imagine that fixing a layer on top of a third-party supplied navigation system is probably more difficult than redesigning a UI. So while they may be happening concurrently, one might be simpler to complete. Of course, I could be wrong and they might just think everything's dandy.
From a media player perspective, there are tweaks that can be made to the existing setup, and it seems like they've added Spotify in some markets. CarPlay carries a licensing fee, so there may be resistance to it. Or there may be a legal department slowing down the adoption of the contract. Or, as above, they might have just moved on from it.�
Jan 19, 2016
vdiv Agree with everyoneTesla Motors has to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. It is not an either/or proposition. So far what they have accomplished is nothing short of amazing, let's not lose sight of that. However they need to be more responsive to their customers.
Google proclaims "Don't be evil!" Tesla's equivalent should be "Don't be like GM!"�
Jan 19, 2016
omarsultan It seems the spirit of Verucca Salt is alive and well on this thread.
While there are no shortage of things that I think Tesla could be doing better, I think its a huge mistake to attribute lack of forward progress to incompetence or apathy. At the end of the day, they are a start-up--in 2014 they had ~$3B in revenue, by comparison, BMW, Diamler, GM, Toyota and VW had combined revenues of ~$850B.
The reality of a start-up is you have to be very judicious with spending, especially headcount, otherwise you end like Fisker or Better Place or (it seems) Faraday Future. You have a certain amount of people you can hire based on expected revenues. So, say you can hire 5 people, where do you put them?
- Do you add a market manager to the MarComm team to improve marketing and owner communications?
- Do you hire more delivery specialists to keep up with the 40% growth in vehicle deliveries?
- Do you hire more service center technicians to shorten wait times to get appointments and while you are at it, do you trade a headcount for some additional parts inventory to also shorten repair times?
- Do you add an engineer to the hardware team to work on more efficient battery chemistry?
- Do you hire a software engineer to work on better media player and CarPlay/Android Auto integration?*
- Do you hire a software engineer to increase feature velocity on the mapping software?*
- Do you hire a software engineer to work on AP 2.0?*
*Let's dispel the myth that there is a single "software team", there are many teams working on different technologies and they are not interchangeable--the software engineer you hire to program the drivetrain behavior today is not going to be working on the AP UI tomorrow, so these are all long term bets.
I think we can all agree these are all things Tesla needs to do, but what is the priority? I actually think Elon & Co are doing a good job in managing the bottom line and focusing investments on things that will help the company differentiate in the market--things like AP and battery technology. The reality is a better Nav software is not going to sell more cars whereas smarter AP, longer range and lower prices will, or do folks expect media headlines when Tesla finally adds waypoints to the Nav?
The downside of this focus is that there is plenty of stress in the rest of the company, be it scarce DSes, long repair wait times, sloppy communications, or slow software updates. Its the nature of where the company is in its mission. If it was content to sell high-end sedans and CUVs, it might invest differently but is is not and so it should not.�
Jan 20, 2016
brooklynrab Indeed a pipe-dream.... Tesla doesn't want our input.
�
Jan 20, 2016
msnow Indeed which is why the topic is about setting priorities. Redirect resources to fix the stuff that is broken or deficient based on owner feedback.�
Jan 20, 2016
omarsultan The premise is flawed, that is not how software development projects are managed. The firmware we see is a packaging construct, in reality its made up of a number of modules such as navigation, HVAC, entertainment, UI, etc. Each of those modules has a developer team and a roadmap or a release plan with each release being a mix of new features and bug fixes. Modules that are more heavily resourced will have higher feature/bug fix velocity than teams which are lightly resourced. Based on what we have seen, we can extrapolate that things like AP are more heavily resourced than things like the media player because that aligns with the company's strategic priorities.
Software engineers are not a fungible resource, you are not going to move them around from SW module to SW module for the short-term, teams are most efficient when they are stable. We can guess that Tesla has lean staffing typical of a startup, so any re-direction of resources is going to be long-term and will be from lower priority projects to higher priority projects.�
Jan 20, 2016
msnow We mostly agree. Management has obviously prioritized things like AP and Summon ahead of fixing broken modules likely because strategically they believe selling new cars is more important than a quality product. Time will tell if that ends up being reflected in future consumer satisfaction surveys like CR.
By the way software project dev managers don't set the priorities they follow direction of senior management and resources are indeed fungible. It's called "resource management" and that's how effective and efficient projects are run in most mature companies. Perhaps the difference is we are looking at this at different levels.�
Jan 20, 2016
ohmman There is a limit to how fungible the resources are - you don't take a GUI developer and have them build a learning algorithm. Shuffling is also disruptive and generally avoided. Tesla is hiring a ton of engineers for AutoPilot specific tasks, which implies that the resource they're managing is actually budgetary. This is similar to the mistake many people make when looking at the distribution of world wealth. It's not a single cake that we all divvy up. It's a growing resource - and in Tesla's case, they can grow multiple teams simultaneously, as the budget permits.�
Jan 20, 2016
BertL I don't think we need worry how Tesla SW Development is organized. From my MS ownership POV, I don't care. I do care about what has and should be delivered to me as a customer. I paid good money for my MS, which replaced a relatively new Lexus and MBZ with all the traditional appointments I have come to expect from a luxury vehicle over many years. I'm happy to be part of an early set of Tesla owners helping to contribute to this EV Vision. I researched and thought long and hard what some of the challenges may entail and admittedly there were trade-offs -- it's in-fact why I waited to buy my MS until this past fall, when from my POV, a decent positive track record was being demonstrated. Unlike some early adopters it appears, I just couldn't bring myself to take undo personal risk with a $100K+ investment, when a start-up may go out of business, be unable to deliver on its commitments, or if my only mode of transportation were to be unreliable. I'm not flush enough with cash to treat my MS as a donation of sorts to a really smart entrapeneur that I admire in many ways, nor am I a Tesla or Elon Musk zealot as some may be. I do love my MS, but as I�ve said before, my satisfaction is going down ever so slightly as time goes on and my expectations are not being completely met.
I expect my MS, like the former luxury vehicles I�ve owned for 25+ years, to have reproducible defects corrected. That is what a warranty is all about. I also generally try to be a reasonable guy knowing not everything can be done immediately, but in-turn, there needs to at least be demonstrated progress or communication to keep me that way. I bet most owners here expect if they have a hardware failure, that Tesla, like any auto mfgr, will resolve the problem. We've seen Tesla get proactive with issues like door handles, 12V batteries, seat belts, and others. As Tesla�s face to us as customers, the SCs appear to generally go above and beyond ensuring excellent customer satisfaction resolving nearly any physical thing they can address. GREAT.
We all know MS is highly dependent upon software to run most of it�s systems. That's a huge benefit allowing Tesla unlike their competition to control their destiny and easily introduce new functions. Tesla also has the ability to provide OTA updates unlike it�s competition which is stellar. The rub for some of us begins when something is broken and acknowledged by Tesla as needing a software fix (with no known ETA). The SC documents it, and the customer is sent on their way with an unresolved problem and no further communication. Now that I�m an owner, I�ve also come to know some of the problems I and others have encountered, have existed -- unresolved -- for months or years awaiting a future software update. THAT, at a minimum, becomes a customer satisfaction problem that festers and grows with an increasing population of owners as time goes on and the problem isn't fixed. It's human nature that we end up telling many more people about our dissatisfaction, than when we are satisfied -- just think about posts on forums like TMC to confirm that point. Tesla needs to fix both hardware AND software bugs. Hiding behind "Autopilot is the Priority" and seemingly ignoring �maintenance� that may not be as interesting to the leadership, or will not generate positive Press, is unacceptable to I�d say most customers that pay for a Tesla of their own.
While it could be debated forever, Tesla also needs to focus additional resources on basic functions like Infotainment (e.g. Nav and Media Player) to make them more usable, and keep functionality at least current with the competition. The IC and 17� display were the big talk when MS first came out. I suspect early adopters overlooked and didn�t care as much about things like Nav routing and lack of USB media functions back in the day, because of their excitement having an internet connection, free streaming services, and other goodies that no other car had, and were new to them at the time. The potential of OTA updates providing additional functionality some day, likely also delayed some concern. It�s now been more than 3 years will little enhancements to a number of these almost utilitarian capabilities � especially when compared to what other luxury brands (that cost less) have delivered for years. Additionally, Tesla chose to be forward thinking and not provide a CD player, iPod or other hardwired media player support like most other luxury brands still do. So be that, except there are owners like myself that care about quality music when I'm driving, purchased UHFS, knowingly gave up full-function hardwired iPod capabilities with playlists and easy syncing from our music libraries coming to Tesla, and remain today with a less than optimal Infotainment experience compared to what I�ve owned and just grown to expect from my former Lexus, BMW and MBZ for years. Other mfgrs are now making CarPlay and Android Auto standard even in their non-luxury vehicles, and IMHO Tesla can't stand tall with what MS delivers functionally on that front today. My point being, as far advanced as Tesla is in say battery tech and having a growing Supercharger network, Tesla is behind in some of the basics and needs to step up or be surpassed. Sure, Infotainment isn�t the holy �Autopilot� we read about in the press, but it is what many (or is that, "most") drivers use and interact with every single time they get in their vehicle -- perhaps many times each day. As owners mature with their new toys -- even an MS -- and volumes sold increase, not having basic capabilities that are expected to just be there, become a disappointment and will ultimately impact sales. The need to deal with negative Sat and the Press as non-sexy capabilities get too far behind, then try to catch-up, in my experience, takes away even more from focused growth. What I call "the basics" need to be attended to more than they are.
Tesla Executives have the ability to prioritize what is worked on, no matter what their budgetary or staffing constraints are. I certainly did for many years, including as a young manager trading off my own secretary/assistant to transfer a new service technician into a remote geography, and IT and software teams I personally believed I needed to invest in for 2-3 year projects, while maintaining and growing today�s business despite increasing budgetary and off-shore pressure. Executives can make short and longer-term trade-offs if they want to. The question is, are non-Autopilot fixes and maintaining the basics even on Tesla's radar? I appreciate not all resources are immediately transportable (fungible -- had to look that up!), but IMHO, the real issue is Tesla Executives need to evolve more rapidly from operating a business that isn�t just a start-up focused on one man�s priorities any more, to where a little more �maintenance� is an expectation and established part of the every day norm. From my peanut gallery and owner perspective, priorities seem out-of-balance meeting obligations to:
The latter cannot be done almost to the exclusivity of the others, as it seems to for the most part be happening In recent times. Fortunately, all of this is deliverable OTA to the fleet when it�s ready. For me, it will be better than Christmas when those presents hopefully begin to arrive.
- FIX the backlog of software that is acknowledged as broken to existing customers
- Enhance the non-sexy software basics (yes, like Nav and Media Player) to keep up with the competition and deliver the things owners simply expect a Tesla or premium luxury vehicle should have when they buy it
- ...while creating all the new longer-term high-profile capabilities like Automous Driving and M3 that the future demands
�
Jan 20, 2016
brooklynrab +1 BertL. At least we have OTA update ability, but the company has to modify its priorities. Musk kind of acknowledged that when he made his famous tweet about 7.1 taking care of Classic owners, and then he did what he usually does, and didn't follow through on when he said he would do (maybe he meant 7.2?). I would like to see an announcement from ANOTHER senior person at the company of a somewhat more specific plan to satisfy us -- UI, NAV, media, and if we are lucky, voice control, before I use up my 8 year battery warranty period.�
Jan 20, 2016
Camera-Cruiser One of the best posts I have read here. I too worried, and still do about Tesla going "poof" and my car becoming an albatross. Maybe I shouldn't, but I do.
As I posted elsewhere, I don't know if I would have pulled the trigger on the CPO I have if I had read this forum. It is that simple. I really thought buying the car after it had been out for three years meant that I would get all the benefits of the OTA updates and fixes. But no. I test drove it with 6.2, but by the time it was delivered it was 7. I was too dumb to ask what the hell happened to the interface that I loved. I just thought I was a setting or two away from making it look good again. Flat, low contrast interfaces suck for those of us who might have a touch of gray starting at the temples.
Interface aside, while irksome, it's bearable. But after 90 days of ownership and having to use my phone for NAV and web stuff, it really makes me wonder. I just thought all of that would have been improved by now. Nothing is sadder while waiting for your kid after school than using an iPhone 4s because its faster and more reliable the the Tesla with its beautiful 17" screen.
Thankfully the driving experience is amazing.
So Tesla, pretty please. Fix, upgrade, make better the stuff that affects all Tesla owners. I'll even pay for a CPU upgrade if that is what it takes.�
Jan 20, 2016
msnow Agree, well said @BertL!�
Jan 20, 2016
AWDtsla Don't worry, today's owners will become "classic" owners soon, so you'll have company.�
Jan 20, 2016
ohmman I'm not a Tesla apologist by any means (I've been called out for being too critical at times), but I'd ask you to re-read this post and think about what you're saying. I think the words "specific plan to satisfy us" are the ones that come off as overly demanding. As I've mentioned upthread, I am generally pretty satisfied, as most MS owners are (look at any satisfaction index). Yes, I would like some improvements, and they have the capability. This is the double edged sword of OTA updating. As soon as we realize we can get improvements, we start to expect them. But to "satisfy us", all Tesla needs to do is service the mechanics of our vehicles properly IMO.
This was posted in another thread (or maybe this one), but it's a favorite of mine, and it's relevant.
�
Jan 20, 2016
msnow It's only relevant if you think that having NAV getting you lost 6 out of every 10 times using it or losing 4% of your rated range the first few weeks of ownership in addition to these other issues is asking too much for a car that cost ~$115k out the door then you're sadly mistaken. It's embarrassing to me, my family and my friends and it should be embarrassing for Elon and Tesla. I'm all about patience but it's wearing thin and if these things are not addressed very quickly the owner satisfaction surveys won't be so kind to Tesla. I hope it doesn't come to that as I want them to succeed.�
Jan 20, 2016
nienco2 +1
Unfortunately for the past year I have detected a serious lack of customer focus with Tesla, read that EM. It's great he has many interests, hyperloop, spaceX, scty and Mars for heaven sake, but that surely impacts his car company. Here's my idea if I were in his inner circle, if he even has one:
Elon, I've been reading through the various forum posts of customers and future customers and several of them obviously are savvy, experienced people with some great ideas. Let's invite 20 of them to an all expenses paid retreat for a weekend and pick their brains. The most important criteria is that you are there!�
Jan 20, 2016
BertL It's just one relatively new Owner's perspective, but I then very sadly predict there will be less Tesla owners at some point -- including myself -- if Tesla has lost focus on who really has and is funding their future, without better balancing what today's customers really want, desire, AND deserve -- WITH the future.�
Jan 20, 2016
brooklynrab Ohmman, I will see your comment with BertL's.
Tesla promised an improving car, via OTA updates, when we bought it. OTA has been a resource to make our cars worse, not better, and certainly not up to snuff with other similarly priced cars in any way other than the excellent driving experience. Hell, go into a Chevy dealership and play with Apple CarPlay, and you'll know what I mean. And you KNOW Apple will focus on making that interface and feature set rock -- unlike the experience most of us have had with Tesla's software for years now.
I started this thread to see how people felt about the company's software development priorities. Members' responses have been very illuminating. I just wish we knew whether anyone responsible at Tesla is reading it.�
Jan 20, 2016
msnow In addition to an email to Tesla you can a Tweet Elon @elonmusk and let him politely know what you are expecting. It's worth a shot.�
Jan 20, 2016
BertL Completely agree.
My favorite word I used to use with my mgrs and HIPO across my team I spoke with one-on-one, is something I learned from a mentor of mine very early in my career: BALANCE.
As much as I really do love my MS and what it stands for in our future potential, that is what seems to have been lost with Elon and Tesla in recent times. There is so much focus on the future, delivering various beta code and new capabilities, then moving on to the next big idea before the last one was perfected enough in the eyes of the real Customers that own and drive their MS every day. We want those future capabilities, but also Tesla, PLEASE, pull back just a bit and continually deliver against the little things owners use many times every day that won't detract, and only add to the joy and satisfaction owning a Tesla brings to each of us.�
Jan 25, 2016
AmpedRealtor BRAVO and "me too" on everything you said. Maybe it's time for a petition or group of owners to send a letter to Tesla?�
Jan 25, 2016
calisnow Well if there's any doubt as to what feature Tesla views as being really important to sales - go load up the home page of Tesla Motors and see what it's changed to this afternoon.�
Jan 25, 2016
Rice390 Glad to finally see a thread on this site that doesn't crucify somebody for voicing their frustrations with this company. I've stayed off the boards for a few months because of it.
Ampd nailed it in his opening post. Musk isn't a CEO, he's a lead engineer. My view, in three years when there is more competition, Tesla will get buried (i.e. GoPro experience). "But where will tesla be in three years". Well, seeing as how my driving experience has gotten worse over the last year (v7), I don't know if the future looks too bright. Keep your useless new features until literally any other non-acceleration-related function can hold its weight against other high end cars.
Cant say I care enough to join some sort of revolution (though would love to see it). I'll just wait until all the big boys join the game and blow tesla out of the water.�
Jan 25, 2016
AWDtsla I love Louis CK, but he's got one part of that wrong. It's not going to space. Anyway:
Yes people are spoiled and they treat the most amazing things as stupid black boxes, but this is NOT about that. This is more about "get it right get it tight". BMW has laughable software but at least before they ship a product they get all the little tiny nuances right that Tesla misses. We expect them to come as software updates. But maybe they will never come. Maybe it will just be a pyramid of more and more owners saying "Oh give them a break, what other electric car would you buy? You're lucky to be driving a Tesla, just shut up"
I would take continuous improvement as a sign it will be fixed, but there are lots and lots of rough edges currently, and they're clearly not getting attention. 7.1 has even rougher edges.�
Jan 25, 2016
calisnow To play devil's advocate for a moment and to try to remain hopeful - would you agree that it might be possible that a renewed focus on fixing bugs is in fact what Tesla might be up to right now? It seems like they've solved several big problems that must have taken a lot of the internal resources of this growing company for several years (IE: Model X development challenges, a mad push to deploy Autopilot, solving the various build quality issues around Model S and the drive units). It would seem reasonable that with both growing human power and with a few major hurdles behind them that the company now has a minute to "breathe" and go about cleaning up the software loose ends.
At least, I hope that's what is going to happen now.�
Jan 25, 2016
Rice390 Can't speak on the model s drive units, but aside from that the Model X is an incomplete product that was rushed out the door, and the autopilot was a year late without telling its customers who paid for it a year earlier (myself included). Another botched roll out.
I understand what you're saying, but it's a behavioral issue at the top. Always looking to roll out the next best thing before finishing the original project at hand. That's what you get when you have an innovative guy like Musk running the show. Until he's moved to a different position, this lack of focus and execution is going to persist.�
Jan 25, 2016
ohmman That has always annoyed me about that bit, because otherwise it's solid comedy. But yeah, I realize.
I'd like to see that as well. I think they push too hard on progress, and I think they're growing too quickly to manage it all well. Look at the rate at which they're hiring right now and imagine trying to corral all of that talent. It doesn't help that someone from the top will come down and stir the pot up here and there, either.
On my classic MS, I don't care for the "toy car" on the speedometer. I would prefer my range be returned to that space. There's a contrast issue that isn't great. I'm not as hung up on this stuff as some others, because I just drive the car. That's one thing that's very right and tight, for me at least. It still drives better than any other car I've owned.
I have always said that I want Tesla to get it right for the time when the competition arrives for real. I've worked with a couple of companies where the getting was very, very good, and when times became lean, they were ill prepared to cope. I think Tesla is in that situation right now. If there were a competing, less flashy SUV (with folding seats) out there that had serious electric range and a charging network, I would have very likely ordered that instead of the MX. But, there's not, so Tesla wins.. that's not going to happen forever.�
Jan 26, 2016
brooklynrab Rice390 nails it -- read Musk's biography about his earlier achievements, and you will see a guy who is a brilliant, hard working big thinker who needed to be replaced or helped along at some point by market-driven executors. he rebuts that contention of course..... He needs a good and strong COO at tesla, a Tim Cook type. I dont think he tolerates that type of individual around him.
�
Jan 26, 2016
ecarfan Nothing is forever. [emoji6] Yes if there was such a competitor I'm sure it would sell well.
But not only is there not one now, there is no sign that there will be one for years. Audi, the champion of EV press releases, has announced the Q6 for 2018 but said nothing about a charging network. 2019 Audi Q6 Car and Driver The German manufacturers assume that governments will build the charging networks. That might happen in Germany (and any such network is unlikely to be as effective as Teslas) but it won't happen in the US or in many other countries. I don't see any competing EV in Tesla's price class selling well without having a charging network comparable to the Supercharger network.
I think that the Q6 EV could potentially match the basic X features and very likely exceed it in some areas (except the Falcon Wings) but not come close to it in sales because of the lack of a useful high speed charging network. And I bet it won't be any cheaper, base model Q6 to base model X. It might even be more expensive because Audi will be paying more for batteries.
So while I welcome the Q6, it will not be the complete package that the X is now.�
Jan 26, 2016
AmpedRealtor While Autopilot will get people interested, once they try out the other software systems they will find the car seriously lacking. Tesla is no longer selling to a core group of people who are so blinded by the fantastic EV driving experience that they choose to ignore the car's shortcomings. If the EV drivetrain is of little consequence to a buyer, there is nothing else here that is compelling at this high price point.
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We've been saying this for 2-3 years now. While I hope that what you say is true, unfortunately I don't see anything in Tesla's track record that would lead me to believe that.�
Jan 26, 2016
BertL My corporate experience would concur with visionaries that are great at starting or rebuilding a broken business, generally lack the operational aptitude to sustain and grow one. It's the rare exception when a single individual has both the time and skill to do both with a business of any scale. Visionaries are great being THE leader, making nearly every decision, and moving the big ideas forward. They many times are awful at people management skills needed establish a broader management and skill base necessary to deal with succession planning for that company to grow and prosper long-term. They also generally get so focused "on what can be" or only their agenda, they either forget or deprioritize the operational business and customer needs that keep things going on the way to that future state. IMHO the best leaders will have at least one or more confidants that compliment the skills they are lacking or are not as interested in, who are fully trusted and entitled to run those areas of responsibilities with only very high-level and occasional intervention.
Completely agree. I just don't personally see Tesla as only a start-up any more, and IMHO it can't operate like one. Tesla appears to be operationally behind maturing as rapidly as it needs to handle increased volumes, and what they want to accomplish with M3. Today's and tomorrow's market has many more impatient and discriminating buyers, than the smaller number of cash-rich early adopters who got Elon and Tesla started -- even though I suspect early adopters are still the highest percentage of people contributing to this forum, while a lesser number of us are somewhere between the two.
...as a manager of mine told me one day long ago, "Promises make conversation, but only results count."�
Jan 26, 2016
AWDtsla If Tesla can't make the conversion, it's time to sell my stock. So far my car is telling me it's not happening.�
Jan 26, 2016
Gizmotoy Agreed. Tesla is still in full-on "Add features" mode, going down checking all the boxes. Media system? Check. Voice commands? Check. The fact that many of these systems look and feel half-complete is of little consequence because, first and foremost they technically exist, and second they can keep all resources focused on adding new features that keep Tesla in the news.
I get why that's important, and certainly a Tesla that behaves that way is better than one that went bankrupt because they aren't pulling in enough new buyers, but it does lead to a somewhat disappointing experience for current owners.�
Jan 26, 2016
AWDtsla But this is so unnecessary. A team of 5 engineers would be plenty to continually be fixing up broken/missing functionality. That's nothing for Tesla. The only problem is if there isn't a management mandate to do this. It shouldn't take a billion dollars to update a browser that's just packaging up open source components anyway.�
Jan 26, 2016
RDoc Well, I think it would work better with 8 engineers.�
Jan 26, 2016
AWDtsla If it was 8 engineers Model S should butter your toast via software update by now.�
Jan 26, 2016
ohmman Mine's a classic, so it doesn't have the butter knife hardware. I guess I'm going to be left out.. again.�
Jan 26, 2016
green1 At this point I'd settle for one engineer, working part time....
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If the best you can say about Tesla is "they're the only choice" that doesn't bode well for the future. I agree it's taking forever for anyone else to catch up, but you can't count on Tesla being the only ones forever.�
Jan 26, 2016
RDoc Having worked at Digital Equipment Corp, Polaroid, and Wang Labs, this is REALLY true!�
Jan 26, 2016
AWDtsla I'll fix stuff for free in my spare time and send them a patch. I have a list of annoyances that are entirely trivial to fix. Give me access to the code.�
Jan 26, 2016
cpa Since I am a totally ignorant fool and naive as a newborn when it comes to writing the computer programs for these half-baked situations:
Just how much work does it take to write these commands? Is the program 14,984,875,356 lines of commands long? If the program were to be printed out, would it take ten million reams of 8 1/2x11 paper? Are there diagnostic programs available to check for errors in the original program? Are these programs written in uncommon and specialty languages that only a handful of people know?
I am not trying to be snarky here; please do not infer otherwise. I do not understand the computer program industry. I do not understand the ethical and moral obligations that computer programmers and their companies have to the public. I do not understand the difference between the quality standards of conventional tangible consumer goods like clothing, food, household appliances, etc. and their counterparts in the intangible computer programs and software business.
Is it too much to ask that a "finished product" should function as intended, whether it is tangible like a refrigerator or intangible like a computer program?�
Jan 26, 2016
BertL IMHO, as a guy that used to do software programming, and setup and ran large remote technical support centers to work between customers and our hardware/software divisions, your expectation is not off-base. As to how much work it is, people here can only speculate since all the code is proprietary to Tesla. I would offer that since it's all Tesla code (unlike the challenges nearly every other auto mfgr has using a bunch of 3rd party components they have to cobble together), it is something Tesla could accomplish if they were to prioritize it.
I personally think it's not on Elon and Tesla's radar in-part because there hasn't been the same sort of "noise in the system" from a smaller number of earlier owners, or growing cost e.g. incurred by SCs having to fix and replace hardware that forces their hand to re-engineer something (early windshields, door handles, 12V, etc.). It's why I took the personal time to both document and report each failure I have encountered to my SC the last time I was there, and plan to continue doing so, along with my writing a business-like letter to Tesla Customer Support to formally document my concern with a specific list of unresolved software problems and basic functional deficiencies. I personally hope everyone does the same, and do not only vocalize on forums like TMC to help their and other enthusiast's soul. Volumes of real customers, with examples how the problems impact them, voicing their concern directly to Tesla will make a difference in the end -- at least it will with companies that have those operational processes in place that ultimately trigger executive visibility to growing customer dissatisfaction.�
Jan 26, 2016
Mark Z I am keeping my dissatisfaction simple.
The Model S and the Cadillac Escalade are being retained. Model X will sit in the garage while waiting for Tesla to order parts. All three vehicles will be compared when fully operational to decide what vehicle is best to use. Over time, I will know what to save and what to sell.�
Jan 26, 2016
calisnow Elon lives in L.A. and commutes to work in his Tesla I believe. If you guys are really serious about getting his attention - how hard would it be to organize a publicity stunt where you set some protesters up with signs outside 10911 Chalon Road in Bel Air (where he is guaranteed to personally notice - as opposed to the company HQ where he might not take the correct entrance and his "people" shield him from the angry owners) and call a few reporters ahead of time. Get an embarrassing article in the L.A. Times about how Tesla owners are so frustrated with their half-baked software that the company has ignored for years that they started protesting outside the CEO's house.
I bet that would get a team on these bugs and fixed in a jiffy.
I believe it is perfectly legal to protest on public property in a residential neighborhood in California with no permit if one is not blocking traffic. Look at the attached photo - the gate on the right is Elon's house. The strip of grass on the left is either public property or part of the neighbor's yard (if it is the neighbor's yard I'm not sure why the fence is set back - maybe code requirements?). Station a few protesting people with signs standing in the gutter directly outside the gate during morning hours for a couple weeks with signs and a well written document to give Elon with a list of the bugs if he is courteous enough to stop to talk to the people - and maybe a link to the forum discussion.
Keep the group polite and respectful - yet clearly visible. This stunt wouldn't work with any other company but with Tesla it just might. And before anybody goes saying this is stalkerish - his address has been published in the news and these neighborhoods are filled with celebrities and tour buses pointing out their homes. It comes with the territory.
�
Jan 26, 2016
yak-55 Why not open source the "old stuff" they can't or won't update/refresh. I have no doubt we would see accelerated development and more options for entertainment, nav, web browser, etc. Let the in house folks focus on autopilot or X or III or whatever is "new and sexy" (or considered a proprietary advantage/differentiator). If properly architected the two (proprietary and open source) should be able to co-exist ...�
Jan 27, 2016
bob_p Unless Tesla designed this in from the beginning, it's very likely they can't allow 3rd parties to develop software that runs in the onboard systems - because of the risk the software could access a critical function impacting driving or safety. While it's pretty well understood how to build a software architecture that allows a "protected" environment for running applications, unless the original software was designed that way, trying to retrofit that into what they already have could easily cost more than throwing everything out and starting over.
So expecting Tesla to open source anything that runs in the car or allow random programmers to provide software updates - will likely never happen.
I hate to complain, without providing constructive suggestions - so here are a few of my suggestions for fixing these issues.
1 - dedicate at least a few programmers to fix bugs and address deficiencies in previously released apps (playlists? - Android app still in beta???)
2 - throw out the Navigon/Google maps combination - and provide a single app for navigation, using online maps
3 - work with a 3rd party (Apple, Android, Bosch, QNX, ...) to provide complete smartphone integration
4 - get current owners more involved - poll them for feedback on current and proposed improvements - and get more owners involved in beta testing
5 - add a "rollback to previous stable release" option for software releases, so that owners can back out changes they don't like
Tesla's goal should be to bring the quality and functionality of their software up to a level matching the market-leading hardware - and get to the point where owners prefer to use the car's built in software/console instead of using their smartphones for basic features like media playback or navigation.�
Jan 27, 2016
Gizmotoy I agree with most of that. If you allow 3rd-party apps on the center console, you should consider the console compromised. At the same time, the console controls a number of important systems. From what we've seen Tesla did a good job of securing the critical systems and segregating them from the console, but it has access to enough control operations to pose a risk. I assumed they'd open things up to a few select firms as partners, rather than providing wide-spread 3rd-party access.
As an aside, #2 in your list would be extremely frustrating if not handled properly. I'm regularly out of cellular range, and losing maps would be terrible. I spend a good amount of time with the center console maps blank (even though they're cached), going by the instrument cluster only. Even if they cache enough of the map tiles, you'd be without route calculation unless they downloaded routing information as well (does Google allow this now? They didn't use to.). Figuring out what and how far to cache, and when to update and flush the caches, would be a tricky task. The fully-offline database is a nice backup, currently.�
Jan 27, 2016
Spidy Does anyone think the reason for lack of map updates could be license costs? Navigon charges up to 100� (e.g. VW Europe update on their website). With a 100000 cars we are talking about up to 10million every 2 years and obviously even more as the fleet grows.
Also they are probably paying quite a bit for google by now.
https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/geocoding/usage-limits
https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/javascript/usage�
Jan 27, 2016
gizmoboy I think the future is so much bigger in their eyes than the current that it's easy to focus on it too much.
That's not a great way to run a word-of-mouth driven business... but I'm not truly convinced that these kinds of cars are all that word-of-mouth driven, either (no matter what we all might like to believe or for which we have anecdotal counter-examples).
- - - Updated - - -
I don't see the business model in this. It sounds more idealistic than realistic.
The recently-stated approach of allowing iOS and Android devices to project onto the screen sounds more promising (and practical) to me.
- - - Updated - - -
I agree.
A to the men.�
Jan 27, 2016
Gizmotoy I mean, other than the fact they were already doing it that way by implementing services from select partners (and have continued to do so, adding Spotify recently)? I don't know if it's particularly unrealistic, either, given it's how the other automakers are handling their in-car native app ecosystems.
I agree the more recent statements are more exciting, but you'd hope that'd be the case after several years of thinking about how to implement this.�
Jan 27, 2016
brooklynrab BertL if you put up your comprehensive "To-Do" list, I'm sure most of us would sign onto it for it to be delivered to Tesla like a petition.
�
Jan 27, 2016
bridaus This thread cracks me up. Is anyone in this thread that is proposing management changes at Tesla a qualified visionary who has shown up all their competition with a truly disruptive product?
Anyone able to state the last year a successful car company was started? With a completely different method of propulsion?
I drove my year old Mercedes with its Comand system to my test drive. The difference was unbelievable. Mercedes is so far behind its laughable. If Tesla's worst is that much better than Mercedes, I can't wait to see their best!
PS: Nothing wrong with wanting them to do better. It's just the idea that we know better than some of the finest minds on the planet... There are open positions at Tesla.�
Jan 27, 2016
Spidy Navigation and phone connectivity have always worked perfectly and that's what I need 99% of the time for my daily driving.�
Jan 27, 2016
bridaus For me: Waze >> Tesla >>>> Comand.
Put Waze on Tesla screen = Heaven.
The Tesla phone connectivity worked fine for me in my limited testing. Maybe I'll change my mind when I start using it regularly.�
Jan 27, 2016
BertL At least from my POV, I do not, and have never suggested mgmt changes. We need a visionary, and I for one greatly appreciate what Elon has and will likely do. Some of us owners are suggesting as Tesla approaches maturity, they must demonstrate a much higher level of operational excellence at the same time they move the world into the future. THAT is the issue -- not doing enough of both at the same time.
Acknowledged software bugs need resolution in a timely manner -- no different than if any owner had a hardware failure a SC could resolve as part of Tesla's warranty obligation. Documenting a problem will be resolved in a future software update, then never providing an ETA and the actual fix in a reasonable timeframe is simply unacceptable.
As a start-up business, I get perhaps Elon's strategy is to provide just enough of every capability so Tesla appears on checklists as having everything the competition does -- then he presses further providing unique functions like AutoPilot to differentiate Tesla's brand. I'd do the same. What saddens me is to continually discover more owners here on TMC who also become increasingly disappointed because (basic) functions or features we used every day in previous vehicles before coming to MS -- and still want to use perhaps multiple times every time we drive our new more-expensive Tesla luxury sedan -- are not there or not as capable as they could be if Tesla provided software improvements to meet real owner requirements. Some of those things may not be important to Elon himself or every owner, and won't gain broad publicity if they are introduced, but are very important to others so it does not distract from the owner's joy and satisfaction owing an MS. No business can do everything, but what I think many of us are saying is even more of a demonstrated slow-and-steady improvement bringing the basics up-to-snuff with the competition, would be preferable to the almost no movement we have seen while Autopilot and new Performane features are almost exclusively focused on. Nearly every model in the fleet could benefit from improvements to what I call "the basics" -- like Infotainment -- unlike a subset of the fleet that have enabled Autopilot or "P" options both today and tomorrow.�
Jan 28, 2016
Rice390 Being a qualified visionary with disruptive ideas isn't the sole prerequisite for running a successful company longterm. So, while you may think nobody is worthy of questioning the Almighty Musk, you've gotta realize there are likely many business savvy customers (some who also built billion dollar companies) who do have valid opinions.�
Jan 30, 2016
AmpedRealtor Not my problem. Tesla promised me 7 years of updates and I expect to receive those updates, regardless of the cost to Tesla.�
Jan 30, 2016
ohmman There's a new map update as of this month.�
Jan 30, 2016
AmpedRealtor Nope, I have not accomplished even a tiny fraction of what Elon has accomplished and I have absolutely zero qualifications to do his job. One does not need to possess Elon Musk's qualifications in order to identify the obvious ways in which Tesla is screwing up, and clearly I'm not the only one who feels this way. Maybe we shouldn't ever criticize GM because none of us possesses the qualifications of Mary Barra. Maybe we should never second guess Apple because none of us can compare to Tim Cook. Better not complain about anything Google does unless your last name is Brin?
Give me a break.
Musk has the visionary thing down, but he seems utterly incapable of getting Tesla to a place of operational excellence. This is why Tesla needs someone with better management skills to handle day-to-day operations at Tesla. Tesla's current trajectory, if unchanged, will not bode well for Model 3 among consumers who: 1) don't give a damn if it has an EV drive train, 2) don't give a crap about Tesla's challenges or that it's trying to change the world, 3) are going to compare the Model 3's systems to vehicles in the same price class such as BMW, Honda, Lexus, Mercedes, Toyota, GM, etc., and 4) will expect things to "just work" and will have zero interest in becoming a beta tester for Tesla.
Based on his track record, Musk appears ill equipped to handle the type of consumer he will be targeting next year.�
Jan 30, 2016
Soolim When will the way point feature be available in NAV?�
Jan 30, 2016
BertL When Elon prioritizes it.
Per previous posts, my view is it's something that is basic, has existed in other vehicles for 10+ years, and so is just expected by most consumers to be there in a luxury vehicle like MS today, especially now that it's been in the market for 3+ years and unlike the competition, could be delivered OTA. ...but, adding that capability does nothing to put Tesla's name in the Press, isn't big enough for Elon to Tweet about, nor really improves some competitive checklist reviewers produce or even the "Average Joe" consumer would think of inspecting to that level of detail when evaluating a vehicle's features. I'm a detailed guy, and missed waypoints, ability to actually turn music OFF so it does not come back on, etc., etc., before ordering. It's only when an owner takes delivery and finds functions like this missing -- or functions that are acknowledged as broken -- that IMHO the rub begins. Then it's too late from the consumer perspective -- money has been paid, and the consumer just has to hope and pray Elon will provide a gift to Tesla owners one day with the additional functionality they expected should be there from day 1. Frustrating.�
Jan 30, 2016
green1 Really? I haven't seen that anywhere else... Did you receive it?�
Jan 30, 2016
ohmman Nav map update Jan 2016�
Jan 30, 2016
brooklynrab +1 all the way.
�
Jan 30, 2016
davidc18 ^^^^^^^^^+1 This is very well said.�
Jan 30, 2016
Soolim Suggest that Musk start practising the skills by fixing the existing deficiencies we have in S.:wink: Lots to do....�
Jan 30, 2016
msnow YES!!!!'�
Jan 30, 2016
BertL Thx. FYI: I've spent several hours today going through Lexus, MBZ and BMW manuals... Attempting to create at least the start of a consolidated non-emotional set of (fairly common) "basic capabilities" that are missing from MS Infotainment. I want to sync that with the recent voting effort that includes a lot of wish-list items (I need to purge those from this effort), then see if I can add at least some of the "Acknowledged broken software stuff" as well. All that combined, I think is what you call the "to-do" list. If I can get my head around all that in some form that is ready for all of our very detailed and critical POVs here on TMC, then find an army surplus store to buy a flac jacket or bullet-proof vest, I'll start another thread with my consolidation work and provide back-and-forth pointers between threads. No promises yet, but I've got a few pages of notes here, need a break from reading owners manuals, and have several more hours ahead over the next few days to see what I've got.�
Jan 30, 2016
AWDtsla Maybe they should be paying you to be an engineer.
If it takes petitions and voting for Tesla to fix stuff the end result is either not going to happen or just suck. Maybe we should just petition Tesla on hiring some user experience engineers.�
Jan 30, 2016
Soolim Very commendable efforts. Please share with us your "to-do" list at the right time.
I vote for BertL to be TMC user experience spokesperson and senior beta tester for infotainment.�
Jan 30, 2016
BertL Will do on the first point. As to the 2nd? AH Ha ha... Please don't! :biggrin:�
Jan 30, 2016
BertL That's funny. Actually, it's just my nature I suppose. I was a Systems Engineer supporting IT customers for a number of years after being a software guy out of college, then in the last half of my career ended up being a sort of trouble shooter that went in to understand and fix several troubled projects or parts of the business. After 2-3 years of head-spinning each time and too many frequent flyer miles, I kept moving on to the next challenge as folks in my (old) team stepped up. Best part for me was when I got a grip on the challenges, a team I could count on to run the show while I focused on vision and executive gobble-de-gook -- but see the turn around and growth, then knowing I could take a week or two off without any crisis or my needing to even call in for messages. THAT was my personal test if I was accomplishing the objective supporting our customers today, and what our shareholders expected for tomorrow.
...too much info I know, but the parallels got me going. Thx for that!�
Jan 31, 2016
BertL OK folks. For those that are interested, Tesla's Software To-Do List is ready for your perusal and input. I won't even try to guess how many hours it took to produce that first cut, but I'm tired of looking at it for now. Hopefully it's of some value in the end.�
Jan 31, 2016
cpa
Mr. Musk needs to work for about five years in retail, dealing with the general public. He needs to understand the mindset of the typical consumer of retail goods and services. He needs to come to grips that thing go wrong, sometimes very wrong, through no one's fault. He needs to be able to balance the axiom "the customer is always right," with the overall health of the business.
I worked in a retail liquor store from ages 16-24. It was an upscale store, so we generally had a pretty decent customer base. I learned early on to treat all customers like kings, whether they were dropping a bundle on several cases of expensive wine or distilled spirits, or just came in for a couple of beers and a pack of smokes. You never knew if that $1.50 sale would lead to a larger sale tomorrow--either directly from that customer or from his friend. In short, my lesson learned 45 years ago was all about service.�
Feb 1, 2016
bob_p While it's easy to blame the software deficiencies on a lack of resources - the problem appears much more serious than that.
Since Tesla has so many apps/features marked as "beta" - such as the new summon feature, the trip planner released last year, and even the android app that was released 3 years ago - Tesla management seems to be willing to accept these "beta" versions as the "final" release, coupled with the other less functional apps (media playback, navigation, user interface customization, calendar, ...), it's pretty clear Tesla management has not established any clear goals on having their software as a market leader. Tesla has great hardware - software looks nice but many owners prefer using their more functional smartphones or handheld-GPS devices.
For those of us who've managed large software projects, I'm pretty confident that what Tesla has been doing with their software would not be accepted at other companies. I can't even imagine presenting plans that would leave out obvious features, run with software labelled as beta (for years?), and still release software with obvious UI flaws and bugs!
3 years ago, it was understandable that Tesla's software had limitations - the Model S was brand new - and they needed to invest resources to get the software more reliable and implement key features (like sleep mode). But after 3 years, that excuse really doesn't work any more - and if they want to have a lower priced Model 3, attracting a larger customer base - and will now be competing with an established competitor in the Bolt.
Rather than Musk making more statements about potential features that may never be delivered (App Store, 3rd party SDK, improved browser, ...) - he might have more impact by putting a stake in the ground and giving their software team the challenge of developing higher quality and more competitive software - and that Tesla is taking the steps now to bring up the quality and functionality - across the board - so that Tesla owners get the best driving experience - which is both hardware and software.�
Feb 1, 2016
nienco2 +1
But since this won't happen there needs to be someone at a very high level who gets the importance of managing customer relationships. What boggles my mind is not knowing or seeing the face of the person who is ultimately handling the issues discussed above. Surely there is someone overseeing the day to day challenges while EM travels and focuses on hyperloop, space X, SCTY and going to Mars for heavens sake.�
Feb 1, 2016
AWDtsla That's pretty much my problem with it. The user-facing side of the software does not represent 3+ years of development effort, in fact it shows stagnation. They want to compete with luxury cars (and quite still on the Model 3 end) this stuff needs severe attention.�
Mar 6, 2016
Boatguy I own a BMW i3 and I'm thinking of replacing my "long distance" Mercedes with a Tesla. It's threads like this that make me think I should hold off a few more months. Tesla not longer gets a free ride for being "new". The basics need to work entirely reliably. No beta, no maybe, no "oh it's just the xyz app, not critical". The basic stuff should all work. Audio, nav, heat, cool, phone, etc. It's scary to think that the same software development group that is responsible for auto lane change is responsible for the bugs in more mundane s/w.
I know all cars have s/w bugs. My 2014 i3 certainly has a few, but it's a $45K car, before incentives. I'm ready to buy a Model S, but for $100K, I expect working s/w, not betas, reliability, not bugs.
Is there any indication that Tesla has read this thread?�
Mar 6, 2016
AWDtsla BMW doesn't understand software, they have their own problems. But I do now appreciate that they did spend the time to get *simple* things right. Like how the wireless keys work, and day-to-day procedures. Like the heated steering wheel being buried in the menus would not fly at BMW. Totally trivial feature and implementation. I'm constantly shuffling settings in the car which should not be necessary.
If they read this thread I think they would spend the couple engineering days needed to fix it, no?�
Mar 7, 2016
doctorwho Agree, stop being like Microsoft and just adding new half baked buggy features, please fix the mapping application that has very significant problems and poor functionality and fix the media app. We've been waiting for a browser (even the current one) or Homelink in Australia for a year now, nearly 80km/hr sign is read as 30km/hr. This would be a brief amount of programmer time to address these issues, I understand that new development has been a priority but its time to fix the existing software as well�
Mar 7, 2016
chriSharek But the coolest thing about Tesla, and not your precious Mercedes or any other manufacturer, is that Tesla will fix these bugs and update your car while you're sleeping one night and maybe provide even MORE features. This, to me, sets Tesla way above and beyond all manufacturers. Yes, there are glitches. But, they have the means to fix them without inconveniencing you to have to go into dealership.
The map comparison is the best example. Every year someone with GM calls me to "offer" me the upgraded maps on a CD for $150 (that need to be mailed to me). EVERY year, I ask them if the charging stations are a layer shown within the maps. EVERY year, they say no. EVERY year, I say thank you but no thank you. Tesla, on the other hand, uses Google Maps. When Google updates their maps, MS updates its maps wirelessly! Brilliant!�
Mar 7, 2016
zambono Your point is only valid if they actually fixed the issues owners have been complaining about for years. The fact that they can fix it wirelessly doesn't matter, since I can just as easily go into the dealer with my vehicle and get a software update.�
Mar 8, 2016
bob_p Unfortunately, the hybrid navigation system (combination of Navigon maps & navigation software with Tesla's user interface and Google maps) is an example of what isn't working very well.
Yes, Tesla does distribute software updates periodically - and that is an advantage over other vehicles (though it's likely the other manufacturers will also start doing this too). And, we just received one of the promised "free" "annual" map updates for the navigation software.
However...
Since the Model S was introduced in 2012 (soon to be 4 years ago). The navigation software continues to lack many features present in other navigation systems. While the trip planner is a nice addition to help with trip charging - the software still lacks many features I had in my previous car (built around 10 years ago). We still can't do waypoints or route customization. The real-time traffic system doesn't provide any information on upcoming traffic issues. And the software still has bugs requiring periodic reboots due to screen freezes or loss of synchronization between the dashboard & console map displays.
While the Google maps are updated almost immediately after road changes are made - the navigation maps are only updated infrequently. Since getting my P85 at the beginning of 2013, I've only seen 2 map updates. And the latest map update appears to already be at least a year out of date - roads in our area built a year ago don't show up on the latest maps. And the inconsistency of the navigation and Google maps results in routes that are clearly not right - when there have been road changes recently. My street was built at least 7 years ago - and the navigation software thinks it takes 5 minutes to drive the first few feet on our block.
Because the AutoPilot software affects driver safety - they must continue to work on AP improvements as a top priority.
But Tesla surely can do more than one thing at a time - and should be able to also allocate enough resources to address the growing backlog of bug fixes, user interface issues, and missing functionality. That's what every other software development group does - invest resources in the newest features, while also continuing to support and maintain the previously released software.
And - because Tesla can quickly distribute updates, once they make those improvements - they can push them out to all of us...
Perhaps we'll start seeing more progress with software improvements with 7.2 and 8.0...�
Mar 8, 2016
brooklynrab As the guy who started this thread, I feel good that I am not just some solitary whiner, and that people like Boatguy see that Tesla can't just get away with not fixing things under the excuse that the company is "new" -- because others are catching up or surpassing Tesla and the novelty and purportedly green aspects of an electric motor isn't enough to carry the day for many people. There will be consequences, and the company will feel it in the market, as Boatguy indicates. Volvo's new interface is really nice, and is also upgradable OTA for enhancements -- and their new version of autopilot is very intriguing. Most everyone has better voice controls than we do at this point, and even Chevy has Apple's car interface.
Yes, ChriSharek it is cool that they can fix these things instantly with OTA updates, but as Zambono says, that is only good if they do it -- which we all assumed they would when we bought in, but they haven't fixed a lot of this in three years. Hopefully they are reading this thread, but you can help by sending the link with a one or two sentence intro to the Tesla service email, where they supposedly take our suggestions.�
Mar 9, 2016
bob_p While I've greatly enjoyed my 2012 P85 and working with the Tesla phone support and local service center has been fantastic, Tesla's underperformance on software quality and functionality may be a factor in our decision to purchase another Tesla.
And Tesla's inability to provide expected functionality in the core apps and the presence of obvious bugs & design flaws (time/temperature location, periodic reboots, ...) does raise concern about being able to trust Tesla to deliver more complex software like AutoPilot - where even small software flaws could lead to accidents.
As someone who has been responsible for developing major software systems, I know it is possible to consistently meet aggressive schedules, while also delivering the functionality users expect - and fixing major bugs before the software is released. But this doesn't happen by itself - it takes management commitment to build a culture, recruit a team and craft a development strategy that can produce high quality - high functionality releases - on time.
And, the longer Tesla waits to address these software development issues - the harder it is going to be to get this under better control - and the greater the risk that another manufacturer will start building competitive long range EVs - and when that happens, the onboard software could be a significant drag on new sales.
Instead of announcing the next shiny new major software feature - what would be even better was a strong commitment from Musk down through the organization - to do better with their software - address the growing backlog of user concerns, change their software process to detect more bugs before software is released, and to fix the frustratingly random software distribution process & provide owners more information & control over the software running in their cars.
Hopefully Tesla is addressing these issues - and we'll see noticeable progress in the next releases...�
Mar 9, 2016
srthomas21 I wonder why this is not important to them. Musk comes from software. He must know how important this is. Would be interesting to know what is happening behind the scenes. Do they just not have the resources to put towards the software issues?�
Mar 9, 2016
Vitold Of course they do. Tesla recently hired two guys who worked for Apple and AMD.�
Mar 9, 2016
dpodoll As one who traded up soon after I drove a loaner for a couple of days that had TACC. AP was delivered shortly after receiving our 70D. I certainly approve of their software approach and urge you to fear not. AP beta is fantastic and will only get better. A test drive will show you what we are talking about. Next upgrade I expect to see is v2 of sensor package (probably software they are developing for Model III). I expect to see v2 sensors and compute platform on next generation S/X platforms about a year before III deliveries. Similar to V1 sensors on the S came out about a year before X roll out. Just as V1 sensors were not backward compatible to the classic S, V2 will not be compatible with current S/X platforms. Also expect to see autonomous AP about 2-3 years further down the road, once again new sensor suite for new platforms.�
Mar 9, 2016
msnow It's going to take more than two guys. They need a plan, strategy, leadership and teams of people working on this. It may be that people are not being truthful with him ("yes" men).�
Mar 9, 2016
doctorwho I know that it doesn't have to be an either/or situation but if that is what to takes then I'd be very happy to support a moratorium on new software features so that the software team could devote resources too fixing the existing software�
Mar 9, 2016
BertL Right. It isn't about "either - or", nor if Tesla's ability to deliver OTA updates is a possibility, nor if Tesla is intently focused on Autopilot and continues to deliver updates to that functionality, nor if there will be a V2 of Autopilot hardware on future vehicles that NO current owners have. What this is about is, Tesla and Elon's choices. Elon is in charge, by his decision, indecision, or his delegation. Such is life as the leader.
What just isn't being done is addressing acknowledged software bugs, beefing up Nav to be competitive, and fixing the horrible Media Player problems and deficiencies many of us encounter on a daily basis. Others have recently articulated the challenges Tesla WILL have if they are not already on top of this and a present is coming to us in an imminent OTA early Christmas present.
I just returned from a several-day road trip -- my first after having taken delivery, and while I L-O-V-E the mechanics of my MS, the SpC Network and how that operated for me -- even while the trip took another 90 minutes or so on each end because of time-to-charge vs. just fill-up with Dino-fuel in my previous hybrids, I truly missed having basics like Nav waypoints so I could put in my final multi-day destination (and SpC locations I planned to stop at on the way) like I have with my former luxury vehicles for years; having to remember to not leave my USB music on or muted when I gave my keys to the valet to avoid phantom playing and additional range loss while my MS was out of my control (being charged -- yeah, a GREAT perk at the right destinations!), and watching the evolving stupid and inappropriate (no longer funny) Gracenotes album covers for hours pop up in front of me on the IC and 17" when I know the album art I have tagged to each of my 16K tracks is perfect and displays properly on every one of my iTunes devices. The little things take away from my otherwise superb Tesla ownership experience, and after just 5 months of ownership, WILL be the reason I won't buy another Tesla when that day comes if things don't change to meet my expectations. I appreciate these things may not be significant for some of today's cash-rich enthusiasts that care about only performance or being part of a movement, but it is for those of us that have owned competive vehicles that have come to expect such refinement as an imperative. As has been well said, Tesla no longer gets a pass as a "start-up" on these things, and they can't focus perhaps only on Elon's future vision to the exclusivity of what the next layer of Tesla owners expect.�
Mar 9, 2016
msnow Good post. Since this was your first longish trip, how much if any of that 90 minutes could you attribute to charging more than necessary due to range anxiety and therefore have shaved off?�
Mar 9, 2016
BertL I'll put it this way. I used EVTripPlanner to get a feel for options before I left. That helped a lot with contingency planning and easing my initial concern. Without it, I wouldn't have been nearly as comfortable. I just don't want to sit in my MS to do that sort of planning I'd rather do at my desk. Plenty of charging options on the 1/3 of the trip nearest to my home, so I wasn't too worried, I'm just a planner, so like to have a worked-out Plan B in my hip pocket and a Plan C at least half-baked. The big CA storm was approaching and weather people were predicting the worst here, so I decided to travel half-way on Saturday afternoon to hopefully stay ahead of the storm (that didn't really come here, but hit me unexpectedly the next day.)
It didn't cost me any time or really much money to trip-charge to 100% before I left home... First leg of the trip went fine without a lot of weather, but had several challenges with traffic where Nav rerouted and I made it to my new overnight stay next to a SpC easily with more than 25% charge left. Plugged into the SpC, checked-in, unpacked, went to dinner, and came back to have charging at 90% just about done. Moved MS over to the hotel and parked.
Next morning, had unpredicted rain -- sometimes causing a slowdown on the freeway to see -- and 30-40mph crosswinds going, so I was more uneasy. Made it 2 hours later to the next SpC with that bad weather the whole time I was traveling 65-70 for the most part, took a nature break, bought another cup of coffee to allow my MS to finish charging to a full 90% just in case. It wasn't absolutely needed, but that was sort of a strategic decision to charge and know I'd have enough to get to my destination and return back to that SpC if I didn't get a charge while I was where I was headed to. The valet ended-up charging my MS while I was parked (they couldn't guarantee it, but they had IIRC 4 80A HPWC which is great with my dual-charger). I got the indication it was charging on both my Apple Watch and iPhone the day after I left my MS with the valet, so was pretty stoked to see it all working as designed.
Unfortunately, after several hours after my MS finished charging, they moved my MS out of LTE range in the depths of the garage somewhere, so I couldn't trip charge to 100% when I woke up this morning as I was going to do via my iPhone. Regardless, was able to pretty much skip the intermediate SpC on the at home (only plugged in while I was doing a little nature break and getting a cup of coffee since there were 8 open stalls, so why not opportunity charge for 20 mins?). At the 2nd stop, it took a little over an hour to put 90% back into my MS for the longer leg home while I had breakfast at Denny's and checked email. Made it home at 60-75mph and loads of stop-and-go traffic with about 25% charge left when I pulled into my garage... Plenty to then go pick up my dog from camp, have enough reserve should an emergency come up with family, and plug back in for charging at midnight.
Net is, trip worked-out fine. I bet maybe 30 minutes of each side of ~90 minutes could have been shaved off, but it's hard to estimate what weather will and won't do, and I'm still worried when I'm out in the middle of the desert vs going from metropolitan area to another where there is more infrastructure... Same deal e.g. with people I suspect in the Midwest and center of Canada... Cross winds seem to be the killer, rain didn't help. Amazing to watch the displays and impact on product range while all that wa going on and still needing to climb significant elevation. I had no anxiety with 25% remaining on the trip graph, but slowed it down a bit when it projected less. Great weather, I won't need to be as big of a buffer for sure. EVTripPlanner was very accurate (albeit using an 85D as the baseline), including accounting for very significant difference in altitude gain (3K'+) on the outbound leg vs return, and therefore difference in range per charge... Larger concern of course is what if one of the SpC I'm dependent upon 2+ hours away is offline when I get there, so I'm glad the later versions of firmware have some indication in that regard. Not completely trusting Tesla's attention to detail though, I admit to trying to double-check alternate sites before I left each place just to add to my confidence level. Yes, I'm paranoid about being stranded by myself in the middle of nowhere with speeding passer-bys that wouldn't stop if I did need help.
...and back to an adjoining tread topic, I'm also frankly still happy to have my supposed "16 miles"... It costs a lot, and I'll never really know of its all there, but it is one more thing to ease range anxiety for those of us that sometimes travel the wide open spaces in the wild and wooly West -- with only rattle snakes, semi's, and dead cow skulls between SpCs.�
Mar 10, 2016
bob_p Recently, I was driving someone who had never been in a Tesla before. Of course the large console is very impressive - and the software looks great (as long as you don't look too closely and try to really use it).
But when the display locked up - and I had to reboot the software while the car was in motion, well, it wasn't very impressive...�
Mar 14, 2016
brooklynrab Further to the question of whether Tesla would be better off putting all their software development chips on red (autopilot) or using some of that capacity trying to round out and perfect the functionality of the UI and UX, it looks like most other auto manufacturers are catching up on the self-driving game faster than Tesla anticipated: A $20,000 Self-Driving Vehicle Hits the Road.
The UI and UX is still a great potential differentiator for Tesla -- it would be a pity to blow this, especially with the Model 3 no more than two years away (we hope).�
Mar 14, 2016
brooklynrab Further to the question of whether Tesla would be better off putting all their software development chips on red (autopilot) or using some of that capacity trying to round out and perfect the functionality of the UI and UX, it looks like most other auto manufacturers are catching up on the self-driving game faster than Tesla anticipated: A $20,000 Self-Driving Vehicle Hits the Road.
The UI and UX is still a great potential differentiator for Tesla -- it would be a pity to blow this, especially with the Model 3 no more than two years away (we hope).�
Mar 14, 2016
brooklynrab Further to the question of whether Tesla would be better off putting all their software development chips on red (autopilot) or using some of that capacity trying to round out and perfect the functionality of the UI and UX, it looks like most other auto manufacturers are catching up on the self-driving game faster than Tesla anticipated: A $20,000 Self-Driving Vehicle Hits the Road.
The UI and UX is still a great potential differentiator for Tesla -- it would be a pity to blow this, especially with the Model 3 no more than two years away (we hope).�
Mar 15, 2016
Carl Probably a reason for Tesla to focus on staying in the lead with AP. It's a selling argument today (and even a trade-in argument for owners of a non AP-Model S). And Tesla will not, on the other hand, lose sales because its navigation is less good that Waze or because of some bugs in TuneIn. My 2p�
Mar 15, 2016
brooklynrab Carl, there is no way, two years from now, that tesla will have an appreciable "lead" over its better funded competitors in autopilot functions. It could be in the ball park. But it could have the best UI and UX, the same way Apple did four-five years ago.�
Mar 15, 2016
calisnow Why do you think this is the case? If you are a computer scientist who is working in AI then I will immediately concede your point and accept you at your word. But if you're a layman then perhaps the best position to take is that you *don't know.* None of us on the outside know with any certainty whether or not Tesla's multi-year lead in implementing a real-world autopilot and custom machine learning fleet software is building up a deep institutional knowledge about autonomous driving that its competitors will not be able to catch up to quickly - especially in the weird, rare corner cases that don't occur often and need a large fleet de-bugging over millions of miles to learn to handle reliably, but which could mean the difference between a crash or not.
The evidence seems to be that real-world use of artificial intelligence and machine learning is a bleeding edge activity not solved by simply throwing money at a problem (not that Tesla appears to be underfunded).
Witness GM's $1 billion dollar purchase of Cruise Automation last week despite the fact that GM has itself been working on autonomous driving for many years. The articles say that after GM execs privately witnessed what Cruise had accomplished they went from wanting to invest to executing an outright purchase. Something about Cruise (a 40 person start-up helmed by an MIT drop-out) and its technology made GM cough up a lot of money.
BMW's CEO is on the record recently saying that his company is "behind" (his exact word) in artificial intelligence and machine learning - and that they risk becoming a Foxconn for Silicon Valley if they don't significantly ramp-up their computer engineering talent. He also complained that Germany isn't turning out enough computer scientists.
Two years from now maybe Mobileye's fleet learning project will have caught up with what Tesla has accomplished as of early 2016. But Tesla won't stand still for the next two years.
Two years from now Tesla is likely to have a multi camera set-up capable of navigating cities, while the rest of the industry is finally shipping cars with the un-restricted autopilots that Teslas have now.
MBZ has not even announced if their 2017 E-class with its improved drive pilot is capable of machine learning in the real world, or if it is going to ship with a locked code set that isn't updated as time goes by. You would think if they had a grand fleet learning program about to launch they would be trumpeting it.
Mercedes has been working on autonomous driving in its private labs for decades, and yet the 2013 S Class auto pilot produces errors at over twice the rate of Tesla's very first 7.0 beta release and isn't capable of learning anything as time goes by - maybe the 2017 W213 e-class will be capable of learning but again, MBZ hasn't announced that capability if it is the case, and the car ships in less than 3 months.
Given the big improvement I'm seeing in my 70D on the latest build of 7.1 it's reasonable to guess that Tesla's autopilot is now producing errors at less than 30% of the rate that MBZ's 2013-2016 S-class does.
By the time Tesla ships a multi-camera autopilot the fleet of tens of thousands of Model S's and X's will have driven 10's of millions of miles on U.S. roads, building the high definition maps they've promised and training the neural networks through every kind of weird scenario.
I don't know how Tesla is improving Autopilot but its improvement in navigating marginal roads in only three months "in the wild" is almost creepy.
For you to claim that all the problems with real world reliable autopilot/semi-autonomous driving will be solved in the next 24 months and that the entire industry will be on a level playing field with its products - seems optimistic to me.�
Mar 15, 2016
calisnow Finally Brooklynrab - I think you worry too much. I think your desires for a better interface will come true. You're sitting here as an outsider watching an explosively growing company - we haven't the foggiest clue what is going on inside Tesla right now except to know that all evidence is they are growing fast and their capabilities are increasing.
But we do know they are going mass market with the Model 3 AND THAT ELON MUSK IS NOT A DUMMY. The measure of Musk's business prowess is not whether a group of nerdy whiners on a forum are happy with his interface - it's whether he can sell all the cars he builds. So far he has sold all the cars he can build - clearly his interface is just peachy!
But he knows where software is now in other cars, and that the mass market is a very competitive sphere, that he will have to compete with the interfaces of other $35,000 cars.
I would happily wager - $5,000?? - with you (let's donate to charity of our choices - my choice is the Wildlife Conservancy) publicly making two claims:
1 - 24 months from now Tesla will still have an appreciable lead over the rest of the industry in the capabilities of autonomous driving.
2 - The user interface will be vastly improved due to larger staffing levels, and Tesla's need to compete with the user interfaces of cheap, mass market cars. The ROI from improving the interface will be vastly greater with Model III's huge sales than it has been so far with Model S and Model X's small, captive markets.
Don't sweat it - your interface improvements are coming.
How about that bet? You seem sure of yourself - let's throw down!�
Mar 15, 2016
notAmeenPerson Mercedes may invalidate your first statement. In some areas they're ahead with the 2017 E-Class.�
Mar 15, 2016
calisnow I agree that the promised capabilities do sound very impressive - the feature set itself on paper is bigger than Tesla's. As for real world reliability in weird scenarios - marginal road markings, etc. - that's the wild card I don't understand how to measure as a consumer really.
I guess we'll all know soon enough how good the Benz is - I'm sure some detailed autopilot comparison tests will be conducted as soon as the W213 ships. Exciting times!�
Mar 15, 2016
srthomas21 Shouldn't the user interface improvements already be a part of a $100,000 car? Personally I expect that if I throw down 100K on a car it should at least have a media user interface to cars in a similar price range. It really shouldn't be that hard to fix something that should have been fixed long ago. I agree that they probably will improve it but the fact that their customers are complaining about issues that long ago should have been addressed is kind of ridiculous don't you think?�
Mar 15, 2016
notAmeenPerson I'm suddenly unable to find the Mercedes-Benz drive pilot feature videos. There were a bunch of them lately. There were impressive videos of pedestrian detection. There was another video about active crash avoidance in regards to a car traveling perpendicular to you (red light running). The measurement of needing to interfere and not sounding any alarms was so precise it was impressive. It also includes pedestrian detection. Another video also showed it steering itself to avoid an oncoming object.
I'm in agreeance with you. The overall improvement of autopilot features in newer car models are encouraging. I'm not for the argument of one being better than another.�
Mar 15, 2016
calisnow I genuinely disagree with you - sales are the only worthwhile indicator of whether Tesla has their priorities straight - and they sell all the cars they can build. What we think doesn't matter - the market has spoken.
But perhaps it is because you live in Utah (where I've lived also - gorgeous state, no traffic) and I live in Southern California where our roads and traffic are hell on earth that I'm happy to take Autopilot over a slicker user interface.
I think Autopilot has made a much bigger improvement in my life than it probably has in yours. It drove me over 80 miles today through traffic in total relaxation to check on a potential investment which I otherwise probably would not have ventured out to see in my non-autopilot ICE car.
You could rephrase your question - why won't a $100,000 Benz/BMW/Cadillac/Lexus let me chill with my hands in my lap through tough traffic scenarios? Why does the Benz make so many mistakes in its critical don't-kill-me-please-steer-correctly-function and make me touch the wheel every 30 seconds? WTF is that about? Don't you think they should've figured that out by now??? I still have to use a steering wheel - AND BUY GASOLINE? And they are charging $100K? ARE THEY INSANE?
Yeah dude - I can handle some delays on the interface - Musk has his priorities straight and his sales growth shows that.
In the end, money is all that matters for a business.�
Mar 15, 2016
srthomas21 Do they really not have the resources to do both though? I think some of the improvements we want in the user interface isn't rocket science. A few simple changes would make it quite a bit better. The interface didn't stop me from buying the car, true, but with all the tech in that car I just expected more. That's all I'm saying. Maybe they truly don't have the resources to do both. Out of curiosity has there been any improvements to the media interface over the years? I have only test driven a 2014 model and didn't have a lot of time to play around with it but would be curious how much if any they have improved it since 2012.�
Mar 16, 2016
bredi humpf. lets not forget new BMW models for example, spend years developing before the next model. There are NO INCREMENTAL UPDATES! And that's it. no more features till next car model. And you need to buy the new one to get the updates. Rapid Incremental software implementation can feel uneventful. Should they wait a year before "wowing" us?
Take a year ago from today and it may put things in perspective. A lot has been improved.
HOWEVER..... here are just my five.... in particular order.
1) Nav. Yes, improvements are needed. I think everyone can agree. But, hey, its better than any BMW I have ever had. Even our new i3 Nav sucks. And its BMW's iBrand. Have you seen Ford's? Chevy's? With all its faults, its still better than most other cars. I have yet to see a better one. I like german cars, so there you have my perspective.
1) Voice Commands and Telephony. This could be sooo much better and useful. Aside from driving, Navigating and listening to Music, we talk on our cellphone more than anything else. (which is kinda crazy if you think about it). The processing is there. It could put Tesla ahead of anyone else if development is put towards it. Google voice commands? Even just simple things could use improvements, "Call Mom - Mobile" = Calls Mom's mobile cell without taking eye of road and tapping. Favorites? Really, I'm dumbfounded as to why you can't program some favorite Contacts like Radio Stations. I have had this since mobile integration in my BMW's since 2000's. Just give me 10.
How about Text popups? Ok... i know, but we'd be lying to ourselves it we ignored our texts until we get out of our cars. How about BIG TEXT on the screen? Or, how about cached messages until stopped? Once stopped, they appear on the screen. Actually, that would be pretty cool and could even be a "safety" feature.
3) Control summon forward/reverse manually by holding forward and back rather then sensors. Would allow on inclines. Space offset on summon, so that you could leave more space on one side if desired.
4.Web browser. wow! Tesla themselves must get frustrated with it. Or should we just be lucky we have one? Its slow and out of date and requires more eyes OFF the road (stopped of course) to do anything meaningful. This could be purposely throttled while driving. But it has the opposite effect if so. If there was an accident and browsing history is found... yikes. Then again, we use our phones instead. But Tesla wouldn't be to blame. Faster browsing is better still. For passengers especially.
5. Extended Weather at current Location AND extended Weather Forecast along my destination(s). Snowing ahead? Chains needed? ice along my route? This could be an extension to Nav and Trip, or its own app. Or both.
I agree that allowing third party development for "Apps" would have huge benefits. But there could also be some legal issues. Yes, Tesla is a computer on wheels, but "WHEELS" on a road that can kill you or kill other people should have limitations. Opening up to third party does just that also.... OPENS IT UP!. Plus, you can't image it would also be free? or free from ads? Visual Ads in a car? Hell no. Would I pay monthly for a better Nav? Yes, but it better be way better than the free one from Tesla that still improves itself OTA.
With all its faults in UI and software, it is still a car that is way better overall than any other in software car implemention. Ford SYNC? GM? laughable. CarPlay may be the exception, but I don't have experience with it.
I kinda want to go drive now, just for fun.�
Mar 16, 2016
calisnow As to your first question I don't know - it seems reasonable to conclude that they have not had the resources in the past to do all things, or these complaints would have been addressed. As for the present and the future it also seems reasonable to predict that more resources will be devoted to software interface development because Tesla has more resources now, and the ROI for improvements grows as sales do.
To your second - I don't know that either.�
Mar 16, 2016
BertL Agree with your POV.
I also live in SoCal, but unlike some others, am not enamored with Autosteer as a necessity for me today or likely ever in my 6-month old "V1" AutoPilot-enabled MS. "V2" could be a whole different game, but that isn't the vehicle being sold, nor is it what I own, nor is it what Tesla will likely offer as a reasonably-priced upgrade to my existing MS one day.
I love being part of "the movement". I also got into this Tesla thing knowing a significant percentage of my MS price would be used to fund the future, compared to what true mass-marketed vehicles like M3 will be able to sustain. Having come from 20 years of Lexus ownership where they definitely have been slow to introduce new functions, capabilities and design -- but as they have been in my experience, are generally even better refined into an integrated driver experience than their competition offers, with little tweaks coming in subsequent model years. Additionally, Lexus set the standard with what reliability, resale value, and customer loyalty can be. I'm spoiled having owned luxury vehicles (Acura, Lexus, BMW & MBZ) for more than half my life, and have grown accustomed to having "basic" creature comforts and Infotainment that work in each of my rides. Given that, my $100K otherwise-technologically-superior MS just has too many incomplete functions that seem to check-off boxes with what makes the press and in comparative reviews. It's only when an Owner lives with MS (or MX) for a longer period you find the problems or annoyances, and things that Tesla/Elon have introduced to great fanfare, but have left in relatively unusable or incomplete states. I completely get that a startup can't do it all, but as has been articulated many times in this and other similar threads, Tesla can no longer get a pass on their "non-AutoPilot" deficiencies and needs to demonstrate constant improvement (even slow, but sure) to it's present and future owner base to sustain long-term sales. I am an example of an Owner that loves his MS, but has moved in just 5 months of ownership to being on-the-fence in terms of recommending one, and will not buy another Tesla if "the basics" are not there when the time comes -- despite how technologically-advanced AutoPilot may be.�
Mar 16, 2016
calisnow I will grant you complainers one thing that I am in total agreement about - the navigation needs to have real time traffic calculations and re-routing like Waze and Google. As is right now I still have to use my phone when taking a trip of any distance in So Cal because I can't trust the Tesla's on board navigation to calculate the best route based on road conditions.�
Mar 17, 2016
brooklynrab +1 to BertL.
And to those others who feel we have no justification in believing that Tesla won't continue to dominate the autonomous driving space, all I can say is that EVERYONE in the automobile industry is now focussing on this challenge, they are all a ton better capitalized than Tesla is, and many of them are building on Mobileye and its Israeli ingenuity to varying degrees (as has Tesla) to get them there. I have no doubt that Tesla will be in the game, but to believe that it will possess an overwhelming market advantage over the competitors in autopilot simply does not square with the probabilities.
Again, I'd like to see Tesla not totally stop development of autopilot, but just throw some resources at fixing everything else, starting with NAV where they are woefully behind, because that will be the road to long term consumer satisfaction and mass market adoption as we prepare for the Model 3.
Here is an easy way for Tesla to show it is listening -- the new Volvo interface allows drivers to select from one of three skins to portray their driver displays (and can be upgraded OTA by Volvo as well). Can Tesla firmware version 7.2 please permit the same option, so that those who like the 7.1 display can see it that way, and those who like the 6.2 display can choose their happiness?�
Apr 6, 2016
RogerHScott All of the people dissing sumon must not have narrow and/or cluttered garages. Having the car able to put itself in and
get itself out of the garage with basically no risk of scraping the sides eliminates just one more source of stress -- and who
doesn't appreciate that, especially in a car of this class? Not that it isn't also freakin' cool!�
Apr 6, 2016
BertL I don't think there are a lot of people that feel Summon isn't cool -- just perhaps a number of owners and prospective buyers that feel some other functions many more owners use every day, can use some long-delayed fixes and enhancement concurrently with the rest of Autopilot improvements (including Summon) being made -- not being effectively forgotten after an initial drop and press release of new functionality as has been the case much of the time in MS' short history with non-Autopilot capabilities.
I'm fortunate to not have a narrow space I have to fit my massive MS into my garage, but can see where Summon could benefit those that do. It certainly bailed me out a few months ago when I parked in a stall at Disneyland one morning to come back later in the day to a |>>%#~ that parked so close to my driver door it was impossible for me to open it. Instead of crawling into my drivers seat from the passenger side, I was able to back my MS out with my FOB, show off the wonders of my Tesla to a couple of friends I had brought along, get a bunch of oohs and aahhhs from them and on-lookers, and go on my way. THAT was very cool, but is the only time I personally have found benefit to Summon's capability in my use since it was introduced. As such, in my personal scheme of things that are important to me, I'll take fixes to acknowledged firmware bugs and bringing Infotainment up-to-par against the competition any day.
My "good" Tesla MS could once again become "great", and perhaps IMHO become the best vehicle I've ever owned, if Elon and Tesla focused even a small team permanently resolving non-Autopilot bugs and then demonstrating constant improvement to these sort of non-Autopilot things for its owners today and tomorrow. Tesla's lack of attention to this brings the brand down in my concept of their focus and caring about today's owner VS Elon's vision for tomorrow being the only priority. IMHO Tesla no longer gets a pass on this because they are a new brand. Enough time has passed and scale been achieved, especially when we are talking about software functions that other mfgrs have had for years (so it can't be rocket science). With M3 reservation success, perhaps Elon doesn't care about the distinction of customer satisfaction from good to excellent, but if not, in my experience it will bite Tesla in the rear one day. Like most of us, I also want Tesla to be successful, and I'd be happy owing a Tesla to the day I die. ...but, Tesla must both deal with tomorrow (Autopilot), as well as today (firmware fixes and bringing Infotainment up-to-date to at least match the competition) to succeed and make me a totally satisfied customer that wants to once again recommend the brand without reservation as I did the day I brought my MS home, and then buy another Tesla one day. ...but again, that's just me. Peace.�
Apr 7, 2016
msnow It's not just you. Reading through this thread most people are disappointed in Tesla for not following through on bug fixes. The two biggest for me are navigation (which is just terrible and the rated range fix for 90D's).
Regarding Summon, I think it's cool but in my situation I share one of our three garage stalls with my wife and I like to park as far as I can to the left to avoid any possible door dings. Summon does not allow the left/right bias but instead wants to center the car which doesn't work for me. It is useful in backing out of the garage however so it's not a totally useless feature for me.�
Apr 7, 2016
RogerHScott The latter in no way implies the former. Work expands to consume or exceed available resources, so there's never "enough" and always a critical need for priorities. If Tesla actually had a sufficiency of resources everything they ship would be good enough
to make everyone happy, which clearly it is not.�
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