Sep 26, 2012
markb1 -- Update 2 --
GeorgeB's post that those already under contract for 60kWh batteries will not be charged extra, after all:
Supercharging and 60 kWh Model S Orders - Message from George B
-- Update --
Here are GeorgeB's posts:
Supercharging option pricing/60 kWh pack fee discussion - Page 11
Supercharging option pricing/60 kWh pack fee discussion - Page 12
-- Original Post --
I'm starting a new thread on this, because I feel this discussion is getting lost in the larger supercharger thread. Also, I'm putting it in "Ordering, Production, Delivery", because it's about the cost and inclusion of a feature. But mods, feel free to move it if you think otherwise.
Anyway, here's the exact quote from Elon's supercharger presentation:
So it certainly seems like he's saying that supercharging hardware will be available as an option at an additional fee.
On the other hand, the design studio shows supercharging hardware included at no additional cost:
Additionally, my MVPA lists supercharge hardware without a fee.
So I emailed Tesla and got this response:
There's definitely conflicting information here. So, what to believe?�
Sep 26, 2012
ElSupreme My guess is there is an 'incremental charge' for a software update that enables supercharging.
That way you still are getting hardware for free. But have to pay an incremental charge to be able to use it. And nobody told a fib.�
Sep 26, 2012
markb1 That's possible, but that differs both with what Elon said (that the fee is for installing the hardware) and with the design studio (which says the software is included with the hardware).�
Sep 26, 2012
kevincwelch I wouldn't read into it too much at this point. The hardware is probably included and enabling it is probably at a fee.
I don't think Elon intentionally said anything conflicting or deceitful; if you've ever really listened to him speak in interviews or at these Apple-esque events, I think you'll conclude that he's either very nervous when it comes to public speaking out just not that articulate or both. Great guy. Genius. Not a good speaker.�
Sep 26, 2012
RDoc When did Elon say that?�
Sep 26, 2012
markb1 See the quote at the top of the thread. It's from Monday's event.�
Sep 26, 2012
RDoc Ah, I see what you mean. I had understood him to say it would be a fee for the privilege, not for the hardware, but the quote does sound like it's for the hardware. That kind of puts 60 kwh pack buyers on the spot. Hopefully, it won't be a high incremental cost.�
Sep 26, 2012
markb1 That would be me!I actually have my MVPA ready to sign. And my "order by" date is today. But I guess if I sign it, and they decide to charge me extra for the hardware later, they'll have to allow me cancel and refund my deposit. Though I suppose they could still find a way to charge an enabling fee without breaking their end of the deal.
�
Sep 26, 2012
Discoducky I ordered 60kWh under the assumption that Supercharging hardware was included which it says on the MVPA. Now that Elon has said that the cars via sunlight I don't see how there could be a usage fee. And if I opt into the 4 year service plan I don't see how this could be an additional charge on top of that. Regardless, I emailed by specialist two days ago and have not heard back.�
Sep 26, 2012
markb1 Here's their press release:
Tesla Motors Launches Revolutionary Supercharger Enabling Convenient Long Distance Driving | Press Releases | Tesla Motors
The footnote says:
So that agrees with Elon and disagrees with the website and my MVPA. I think maybe I should just sign and return the MVPA and hope that locks in free supercharging hardware.�
Sep 26, 2012
KBF I understood it to mean that the hardware/software is free, but you'd have to "pay at the pump" so to speak. Makes sense to me, since there is a $10k premium on the 85 kWh pack.�
Sep 26, 2012
markb1 That wouldn't be too bad for me. I don't drive long distances very often. But I don't see how that interpretation can be made from Elon's statement or the press release.�
Sep 26, 2012
Todd Burch It's been pretty clear to me that it works like this:
60 & 85 kWh cars have the hardware included automatically (no additional cost).
60 & 85 kwH cars have the necessary software.
60 kWh cars require a nominal fee to unlock the capability in the software. This is included "free" for the 85 kWh cars.
Once your 60 kWh car is unlocked, supercharging is free for life from that point on.�
Sep 26, 2012
markb1 But what's your source for that statement? Neither Elon nor the press release seem to suggest that.�
Sep 26, 2012
Todd Burch Honestly, I don't recall. But I remember it being pretty clearly defined in my mind at some point. All of the statements in your first post are in complete agreement with my post, and they are the most recent. I don't see where this disagrees with Elon's statement. He was speaking unscripted...and as you know Elon isn't the most eloquent speaker. I wouldn't parse his words that closely.
However you interpret it, it doesn't matter from your perspective whether the charge is for a software unlock or a hardware update. I'm almost certain it'll be software, as Tesla will want to make the cars as similar as possible.�
Sep 26, 2012
ElSupreme So who will be the first to 'jailbreak' their 60kWh car and supercharge for free?�
Sep 26, 2012
mitch672 Even if you somehow figured out how to do that (doubtful), Tesla will "see" your car using the SuperCharger, the cars are GPS enabled, and have 3G data connections, not to mention plugging into the SC itself is likely to log your Model S's VIN anyway.�
Sep 26, 2012
NigelM Thanks for starting the thread, "Battery and Charging" includes discussion of battery and charger options so I'm moving the thread there.�
Sep 26, 2012
youlikeadajuice I have to admit, I'm not a big fan of Tesla's track record on announcing things like this...do they really have no idea that they are going to charge fees for certain things? They announce the service plan after they collect a whole bunch of "Finalize your order" emails that is basically essential to maintain your warranty, then they announce that super charger hardware is included in the 60 kwh Model S, and then a while later say that there will be a fee to use it...hard to believe that this wasn't all known a while ago. I have so many reasons that I really want this car, and they keep giving me reasons not to get it. I mean, what fee will come out next week?�
Sep 26, 2012
kevincwelch This is one of my biggest sources of frustration with Tesla: They have trouble getting all their divisions moving forward in parallel.
On the options page, it clearly states "Includes all software and on-board hardware" and via illustration that the 60 kWh version has it as standard.
The supercharging page really does not say anything about who gets what and what is standard or optional.
On the charging Model S page, it states that "All Model S vehicles with the 85 kWh battery can use Superchargers as can properly equipped 60 kWh battery vehicles." What is a "properly equipped" 60 kWh Model S? Is a "properly equipped" Model S standard or not now?
If I design my Model S and select the 40 kWh model, at the bottom it says that supercharging is not available. If I "upgrade" to the 60 kWh, it says supercharging is included. The wording does not change if I upgrade further to the 85 kWh version.
Now the press release (as linked from above) says the hardware is optional for 60 kWh versions. I would like to assume that the press release is the most up to date and accurate, but there appear to be many inconsistencies now, and if your MVPA says it is included for the 60 kWh, then there is a real problem now.
I don't want to get all fired up again, but here it seems is another situation in which people have signed an MVPA under one circumstance and are being informed that Tesla is changing the agreement.
WTF!?�
Sep 26, 2012
drees Each solar canopy (assuming that the one at the unveiling is typical) probably has somewhere around 20 kW of PV on it (total rough ballpark judging by the size of the thing). So while it may produce enough energy on average to offset all the charging any cars do, while a car is charging the station is will still be pulling a significant amount of energy from the grid regardless of whether or not the sun is shining. The peak load from the grid (called a demand charge, typically averaged over 15 minutes) is charged separately from energy for large power installs like this, and cost can range from $5/kW to $25/kW depending on the utility, time of day and season (summer/winter). So worst case to charge one car at time at 90kW it could cost Tesla $2250 / month in utility bills. If these Supercharger stations have 4-6 of them, multiply accordingly if they all happen to charge at once. On-side battery storage would help - but you'd need a lot of batteries - would it be worth it? Only Tesla knows.
That aside - if you are a 60 kWh S potential owner, I don't see any downside to signing with the Supercharger option if it's not listed as costing you anything. I would guess that Tesla will make it some sort of subscription service for 60 kWh S owners or possibly a per-charge fee, but that's just a guess.�
Sep 26, 2012
jerry33 I'm putting it down to "They have changed their mind several times and not even Elon can remember what the last change was".�
Sep 26, 2012
kevincwelch I think this would be fine. if the "incremental fee" is the fee to use the service, then fine. If the fee is to enable the hardware, then, it depends on the cost of what it is to enable. (But, I guess that would be OK.) If the fee is to install the hardware, then that seems to conflict with what they have stated in the past and with what the website demonstrates.�
Sep 26, 2012
ahimberg Perhaps tesla is planning to not include the supercharger hardware with 60's sometime in the future? (non-north America? next model year), and only committing to 85's always having it in the future.
Sure would be nice to know though, if its expensive that might push some people to get the 85�
Sep 26, 2012
Chas F Pretty sure I heard Elon say each canopy would generate 100 kW.�
Sep 26, 2012
Discoducky Might never know, but I'm thinking the same thing. My service specialist emailed be back saying he'll have an answer back next week.�
Sep 26, 2012
drees Video of event below - I can't find that reference anywhere, can you?
�
Sep 27, 2012
Brian H Etc.
Mostly irrelevant. TM has nothing to do with the electricity dispensed or generated once the SC station is installed.
ALL of the power to the cars is from the grid. Solar City pays for the electricity used, and meanwhile sells its solar-gen power to utilities, possibly under FIT arrangements. It sizes its total network capacity to generate a surplus, and thus make a profit.
It's brilliant. The power to users is free, TM is "hands-off" and unencumbered by station mgmt. details, and Solar City gets a whole bunch of locations for its panels.�
Sep 27, 2012
Chas F
My mistake. At 2:47 he mentions that the supercharger would charge the car at 100 kW. Nothing to do with the PV.�
Sep 27, 2012
grisnjam
From this: Superchargers will only work on Model S (for now) and every future Tesla EV
It looks like they plan on having onsite battery storage, at least in the future so you really can say your driving on pure sunlight:
�
Sep 27, 2012
Todd Burch Is this a hint that Tesla will possibly be buying back our batteries in the future to use them in superchargers?
It would be smart to offer a buyback program, because it will keep Tesla customers as Tesla customers. Think about it. 10 years from now, if you want the latest EV, Tesla takes your car and battery in exchange for a discount on a new purchase.
You likely wouldn't be able to take a Model S with a battery nearing the end of its usable lifetime as an EV battery for a significant credit at a different automaker. But with Tesla, a used battery still has plenty of life left for supercharging. Surely Tesla recognizes this, and I predict they'll take this approach. Anyway, back to the 60 kWh discussion...�
Sep 27, 2012
ItsNotAboutTheMoney Ooh. Give that dog a cookie.
Of course, if the cost of new batteries drops far enough they'd be able to use new modules that would perform better. I presume they have the potential gains from arbitrage figured into the business model the same way Better Place does.�
Sep 28, 2012
mulder1231 Supercharghing option pricing announced for 60 kWh battery
This just received from Tesla:
Today, we are announcing pricing for the option that enables Model S to access the Supercharger network. This option will cost $2,000 on Model S equipped with our 60 kWh battery and includes unlimited, free Supercharging for the lifetime of your Model S. Supercharging is included as standard equipment on cars equipped with our 85 kWh battery.
Supercharger access is made up of three components: hardware, software and the vehicle interface. The cost to enable Supercharging on cars equipped with a 60 kWh battery is $2,000. Hardware represents approximately $1000 of the cost, while software configuration, enabling and testing the interface represents another $1000.
Since you are an early reservation holder and booked your 60 kWh Model S before complete Supercharging information was available, we planned ahead to build your Model S with Supercharger hardware at no additional cost to you. If you would now like to enable access to the Supercharger network, we still need to configure the software, and enable and test the interface. There will be a $1000 charge to complete this work if you would like to enable access to the Supercharger network. After this work is complete, you will then have unlimited free access to the network for the lifetime of your Model S (this even extends to all future owners of the car).
Supercharger hardware and software must be calibrated and tested during installation, so it must be done during production of your car. We cannot add Supercharging to your car after you take delivery.�
Sep 28, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla $2,000 for new 60 kWh configs from hereon! $1,000 for me since I had finalized before the SC announcement.
Just got an email from Tesla:
- - - Updated - - -
Additional FAQs in the email:
�
Sep 28, 2012
mulder1231 GG, got the same message.
You beat me posting it here by 2 minutes. Mods, please merge the new thread I started.�
Sep 28, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla These buttons were available to make my selection:
�
Sep 28, 2012
markb1 Just got the same email, since I decided to finalized while they were still showing the supercharge hardware as included. I suppose they think I should be grateful that it's $1000 and not $2000, but actually I'm pissed.�
Sep 28, 2012
Discoducky Speechless, my email says I have 10 days to decide....
I was thinking that as an early reservation holder TM would not make us pay an extra fee. Another grand gets sucked out for something that I thought was included.
Here is the full text of my email:
�
Sep 28, 2012
ahimberg I'm surprised they didn't mention offering 85kWh as an option to change without impacting order date�
Sep 28, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla They did. My post above now has the FAQs including this one:
�
Sep 28, 2012
bonnie Really great news for those of you with the 60kw battery already selected. It sounds like the option will be $2K for those that have later reservation spots in line.�
Sep 28, 2012
bonnie And my first reaction was just the opposite of yours, discoducky ... "Nice of them to split the difference for those either configured or close to having to configure." Elon did say something about a fee for the 60kwh battery option - this seems far more reasonable than pay/use. To me, anyway.�
Sep 28, 2012
ckessel The 60kwh supercharger pricing was TBD on Tesla's website for a very long time so I'm not surprised there's a cost. The cost seems high though. $1000/$2000 in gas would cover a tremendous amount of road tripping in an ICE.�
Sep 28, 2012
Jhall118 The hardware is included. You are paying for software.�
Sep 28, 2012
dmunjal I ordered the 60kw and am seriously considering the 85kw upgrade because of this. Especially if I can get it in 2012.�
Sep 28, 2012
Discoducky Are you getting the 60kWh battery? Not sure you are feeling the pain.�
Sep 28, 2012
Jhall118 And it just puts you 8 grand shy of the 85 kwh battery...�
Sep 28, 2012
markb1 This is really inconsistent with what Elon said on Monday:
If supercharger hardware is installed, you can use the supercharger network for free. That only seems to leave room for charging for hardware, not software, configuration and calibration. And until today, they were letting people order the 60kWh pack with supercharge hardware included.�
Sep 28, 2012
bonnie No, I'm not - I'm getting a Sig Model X. That's why I was careful to word it as to what my personal reaction was when I heard. I'm obviously not in the middle of it, but the website did say price was 'tbd', Elon did mention a cost, etc. So my assumption all along has been that there would be a cost.�
Sep 28, 2012
Sousaphil Yeah, no kidding. If you consider the price delta is now $8,000 for the extra 15kw.
Gotta crunch some numbers this weekend!�
Sep 28, 2012
gjamrok Just got an email with an offer to add supercharging to my 60kWh Model-S for $1000 (half of what it will cost 60kWh cars for people who have not configured) which I happily chose to do.
You then get supercharging for free for the life of the car.
After this work is complete, you will then have unlimited free access to the network for the lifetime of your Model S (this even extends to all future owners of the car).
They also gave me the option of upgrading to the 85kWh pack (which I did not choose to do).�
Sep 28, 2012
smorgasbord Well, I think you need to compare against the value of your time. Assuming they limit to a 1C charge rate, SC charging is about 3X faster than the HPC. So, a 30 minute SC charge would take 90 minutes at an HPC - and that's if you got the twin chargers (another $1000). At $50/hour, then it'll take 20 charges to make up the $1000 difference, or 40 charges to make up the $2000 difference. How many road trips are you going to take in your Model S over its lifetime?
Given a choice between $2000 for SC charging and $1000 for twin chargers, the answer is easy: SC charging.�
Sep 28, 2012
markb1 And then they changed it to "included" for a while before changing it to $2000 today.�
Sep 28, 2012
bonnie They did. But I also noticed at the time that it said the hardware was included - and nothing about the software. My assumption at the time was that there would still be a charge to activate the software.�
Sep 28, 2012
markb1 The design studio said the software was included, too.�
Sep 28, 2012
doug Actually what is the charge rate in terms of Miles of range per Hour of Charging (MPHc) for cars with the 60kWh battery. If it's actually charging at 1C then the MPHc should be about 70% of that of the 85 kWh cars. That's something to consider if 60kWh customers are planning to rely on the supercharger network for roadtrips.
Has Tesla made any 60kWh cars yet? Did they ever announce if they're using fewer cells or different cells or both?�
Sep 28, 2012
Tempus Yeah, at the time i finalized, the design studio said hardware and software included. Of course my official documentation says "supercharger hardware" at no cost, but theres no mention of software on that at all.
Frankly, i think its a no brainer to get the SC access with the 60 kwh battery, esp since its technically half price for me, but it is tough to have to add another 1k to the bottom line, esp since i already had a "final" price.
Also not a huge fanof the 10 days to decide, but i do understand. I really wish there was a clearer map of the east coast charger plan. Virginia down to charlotte, for example, doesnt seem that clear cut.�
Sep 28, 2012
gjunky more nickel-and-dime stuff. I don't think it is right to compare the cost of the difference in charging time. The twin-chargers are meant to charge faster at home. They usually don't help too much on the road (I know it can, just saying there are not a lot of 10+Kw chargers).
Supercharging is for those occasions where you want to cover a longer distance. I assume for most people this is rare. This means you are comparing the cost of installing the supercharger against the cost of driving that distance with an ICE car. As mentioned above, that is a lot of gas.
I love the fact that the chargers will be free. I am curious to see if they will stay free for the GENIII but charging current 60KwH reservation holders for this I think is a poor choice.
Splitting the cost between hardware and software/testing seems to be a convenient way to split the expense but I doubt it has anything to do with the real cost.
To be clear: This is not affecting me as I was going to order a 40KwH car but decided to cancel and wait for the GENIII. It is just my opinion.�
Sep 28, 2012
kevincwelch What Tesla is doing to 60 kWh buyers is a reasonable compromise.
We've known for a long time that the design website stated that supercharging for 60 kWh models was "TBD." So, it should have been reasonable to assume at the time that either the 60 kWh buyers were not going to ever have the capacity or that they might have it included (fee or no fee). It was wishful thinking that it would have been included without a fee. Since you've already signed your agreements, Tesla could have informed you that you needed to pay an optional $2000 for the supercharging or could have thrown a below-the-belt punch (as they did with the service plan) and informed you that it was installed and that you owe them $2000 more.
So, I think installing the hardware and offering the software to you for $1000 is a nice gesture.
Most of you who signed an agreement didn't know if supercharging was ever going to be an option; now it is. It's an option. Tesla isn't requiring that you buy it, unlike the service plan.
I wish it was offered to me at $1000 instead of $2000; I don't know if I will get it since I am unlikely to use it. Nevertheless, I don't know if I initially decline it if it will be able to be retrofitted.
As for the 10 day notice, I really don't know why they need to know this in terms of software installation; this seems more like an infomercial: Call in the next 10 minutes and we'll double your set of steak knives!�
Sep 28, 2012
CapitalistOppressor The price for the 85kWh battery has been glitchy, with an additional $2k charge listed for some people. Folks shouldn't assume that the MS60 is the only configuration about to see a bit of price inflation as Tesla gets a better handle on their production issues and real cost structure.
85 kWh pack now $22k?�
Sep 28, 2012
jerry33 I figure I will use it 15-20 times a year minimum (assuming they are actually built). Depending upon where the stations are located, I might use it more. That compares to about ten fills in an ICE at $35 so over five years that's $1750. Charging (that many times for 150 miles) at home is ~$700.00 over five years. Compared to using an RV park, where the charges might be as high as $25, it's most likely to be a bargain. And it's 30-45 minutes vs. 5 hours.�
Sep 28, 2012
vfx Splitting the price seems fair. to me. Consider that everyone from today on out will have to pay twice the cost that an early reservation holder get, it would be right to consider it a perk of an early adopter.�
Sep 28, 2012
markb1 No, most recently, until today, it said "included", not "TBD".�
Sep 28, 2012
smorgasbord I'm uncomfortable comparing "free" supercharging to gasoline fueling costs, since we're already paying a premium to save money on gasoline - which is the cost of the needing to be replaced battery. I think the comparisons to alternative charging costs is OK, and certainly the time savings are worthy of consideration.�
Sep 28, 2012
CapitalistOppressor Don't assume that there will be only an $8k difference in price between 60kWh and 85kWh.
85 kWh pack now $22k?
So far, the design studio might just be glitchy, but it also seems possible that they are preparing to increase the price of the 85kWh as well. If so, then maybe the Sig owners ended up with more value than they expected
- - - Updated - - -
Hmm.. just received this message -
Hi,
The 85 kWh battery pack price remains $20,000 over the base price of Model S, not $22,000. There was a problem in our design studio which we have just corrected. I'm sorry about the confusion.�
Sep 28, 2012
clindsay I am P732 and I just bailed. First it was not including cupholders, which we hear might come later in an opportunity console (opportunty for Tesla to charge that is), then it was $600 wiper blades every year, now $1000 fee for superchargers listed as included and the reason I went from the 40 to 60KW battery. One to many hidden Tesla taxes on this car and we haven't even gotten wind of the data plan or the year 5+ taxes yet.
Nickel and dime = bye bye�
Sep 28, 2012
Tempus Actually, thats exactly the comparison im making. For some of our normal road trips, i was assuming theyd be out of range of the model s, so i was going by what it costs us in our current car. And thats roughly $70 to fill up, with probably 3 fill ups onthe roundtrip. So it doesnt take many of those to get to the $1k cost. Heck, maybe im just rationalizing, but thats the cost difference to me personally between getting the SC and not, assuming they can get charging stations built out here on the east coast soonish.�
Sep 28, 2012
youlikeadajuice This is just getting old...required service fee to maintain the warranty, supercharging included...wait no...$2000 extra. How many more times is this going to happen?�
Sep 28, 2012
markb1 To be fair, there are two cupholders. They just suck.�
Sep 28, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla I'm going to drop leather and get supercharging for $1K. Will be saving some money in the process.�
Sep 28, 2012
1young1 Well, we still don't know what the monthly data plan is going to be, how much the annual service fee after 4 yrs, and new battery replacement and...�
Sep 28, 2012
smorgasbord gg, I notice that you're getting the Black Roof. Why that over the body-colored roof?�
Sep 28, 2012
vfx
Since the SCing is actually free unlike electricity from home there is a payback for true road warriors.�
Sep 28, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Loved the contrast of the very-glossy black roof with the sunset red back at the Fremont and the Palo Alto events. Hoping for the same sporty look with the green as well. A poor man's pano-roof-look if you will. Body-colored roof, IMO, sticks out like a sore thumb.
Okay, wife approved the switch from leather to SC-enablement; she was only too glad to hear me say that we'd be saving $500�
Sep 28, 2012
Discoducky FYI. I've asked for an official answer regarding regular use of supercharging and reducing the life of the battery and drivetrain while NOT used in Range mode.
I don't think I can make an informed decision without this critical piece of information being official from TM.
But in general, given the distance between superchargers in Cali right now, I'm not sure they'll be very useful to 60kWh S's after about 4 years/60k miles.�
Sep 28, 2012
ModelS1079 GB noted in conversation with me last evening that battery life loss not a significant concern as the cables/software are first-rate at preventing a situation where it hurts the battery. Notes Tesla wanted to be sure supercharging was not looked at as a primary way to charge the car. Still I look forward to your answer when you get - please post!
More $ was tough news for me - I have a change of plans but also need an opinion about the 60 vs 85 - just posted it at New Engalnders' forum here if you have a moment:
New Englanders -- check in! - Page 11�
Sep 28, 2012
kevincwelch Well, obviously I remember it differently.
Nevertheless, it's a reasonable price for the option if you haven't signed in my opinion.
- - - Updated - - -
Interesting post; thanks for including.
I guess it should boil down to what you need. The SC would appear to benefit you; I'm not sure it would benefit me. So, I'm probably not going to upgrade to 85 kWh for the included SC. If I upgrade, it would be for the performance gain, longer range, and unlimited mile warranty on the battery. SC would be a benefit, although I would likely never use it.�
Sep 28, 2012
Lloyd Super charging for the 60 KW is for THE LIFE OF THE CAR! It is worth it just for the resale of the vehicle. Likely you will not be the only owner of this car. If you don't have it and you can't add it later your resale value will really suffer. IMO it does not matter if you will never use the SC option!
�
Sep 28, 2012
AnOutsider indeed, here is how the site looked prior to today:
So, I guess there's no actual mention of SOFTWARE, but the SC HARDWARE was definitely marked as "included" and "standard" FWIW.�
Sep 28, 2012
ModelS1079 That is correct - 60 said included as of 5pm yesterday EST. Certain.
But to be clear (and I posted this in August - probably about the 12th) Tesla verbally clarified that there would be an ACTIVATION fee for the hardware/software for the 60kWh battery.
My head knows they have huge margins to cover; in my heart, I think it's a bummer. Anyone who is getting a 60kWh battery has cost concerns to begin with. Esp if reaching from a 40 to the 60 so as to get supercharging. Now it's $11-12,000 more than the 40kWh battery...ouch. Love this car, this company, the mission at hand, but suffice it to say that buying a Model S is not for the faint of wallet.�
Sep 28, 2012
youlikeadajuice That's the part that gets me...for months it's listed as "TBD", then recently they changed it to "included"...good news, right? Then back to not included and $2K. For me, and I'm sure others, it makes planning to buy this thing difficult, especially with the recently announced service plans and potential future unknowns. I really believe in Tesla and want to support them, it's just getting more and more difficult lately.�
Sep 28, 2012
markb1 When was that? Elon clearly said at the supercharger announcement that there would be a charge for the hardware:
That statement also says that cars that have the hardware can use the supercharger network. Nothing about software or configuring software or any BS like that.�
Sep 28, 2012
contaygious Glad I got performance!�
Sep 28, 2012
jerry33 +1. From the first I never reckoned that anything other than 85 kWh pack was worthwhile getting (for me). But I can see how if you had planned to get a 40 and upgraded to the 60 for the SC, the additional cost is a real heart attack moment.�
Sep 28, 2012
kevincwelch Fair enough. I remember that as well, but I distinctly remember a "TBD" earlier in the year. I'm not the only one.
I think it is yet another reminder that communications seems to be a big problem for Tesla.�
Sep 28, 2012
mark Got this email from George B today...
Hi Mark,
Thanks for the note. It is greatly appreciated.
Let me explain a little further. There is nothing hidden going on here, and the explanation is very straightforward. We had hoped to announce the Supercharger network in July. It was impossible to do so. We had to delay the launch until September. If we had launched in July, the prices for Supercharging would have been:
85 kWh No charge
60 kWh $2000
40 kWh Not available
We needed to start configuring cars for customers with General Production reservations in July (this was not an issue prior to that because all Signature cars have 85 kwh batteries). So we looked ahead and made the decision to put the hardware and software needed to enable Supercharging into all cars to make sure if anyone who opted for a 60 kWh battery wanted to enable Supercharging they would be able to. We put on the web in the options & pricing page and the Design Studio that the hardware and software necessary to Supercharge was included on 60 and 85 kWh cars. We did that specifically so anyone who selected a 60 kWh battery back in July, August, or up until now in September would have the exact same option as someone who had not yet configured their car. They would have the option today to choose Supercharging, decline Supercharging, or even get a different battery...the only difference, we would keep their original delivery timing, no matter what choice they made.
Then we decided to do something extra for these customers who had already configured, and we decided last night at about 11:30pm eastern time, that we would go ahead and pay for half of the cost. So, we are not only making it possible to make the same decision now as they would have been able to make back in July, we are making it even better...you can enable Supercharging for half price and still keep your original delivery date.
This is not a negative. We have taken those who would have had to pay $2,000 up until now and made it possible for them to enable Supercharging if they want to for half the price. They don't have to enable Supercharging if they don't want to. But if they do want to, they can do it for half price.
I hope you see this as a reasonable response. The announcement today is actually giving a large number of customers who have already configured their car the option to enable Supercharging on their car for half the price it would have otherwise cost...if they want to. And it's fine if they don't want to. If they want to they are better off. If they don't want to they are in the exact same position as they would have been otherwise.
Again, thanks for your note. I appreciate every customer who gives me the chance to explain what is really going on before overreacting.
Have a great weekend! George
On Sep 28, 2012, at 9:42 PM, "Mark Peterman" wrote:
George-
I am a big fan of Tesla and have been talking to everyone I meet about the model S. I took the maintenance costs in stride even though it seemed excessive in light of the repeated claims of low cost of maintenance for EV. Now with the switch from �included� to $2000 for supercharging, I am beginning to doubt Tesla can be trusted. I am realistic and want to believe that there is a reasonable explanation, but I am concerned by reading on the forums how Tesla reps were implying the Elon misspoke at the Supercharger launch about an additional cost. It seems hard for me to believe that this is good business practice. I would really appreciate a reply or blog post next week explaining this change in a way that will repair my opinion of Telsa.
Best wishes,
Mark
P9318�
Sep 28, 2012
kevincwelch Good point...�
Sep 28, 2012
AnOutsider You know, I like George, but this is just silly. Tesla always has the first say... Properly explain what's going on from the get go to head off any confusion and/or speculation. One would think they'd learn this.�
Sep 28, 2012
markb1 I'd like to write a letter to GeorgeB about this, too. How do I reach him?�
Sep 28, 2012
Bardlebee Unless I missed something, I am disappointed they make you choose right away. In fact a 2k add on later on (since its purely software) would be a good move. Or, they could make it 2k at the time of purchase and 2.5k if you want to wait and get it later. Either way, a bit disappointing they can't just beam the updated software (more likely its a lock on the functionality and the software is already in the car.) to your car.�
Sep 28, 2012
AnOutsider I think for the early cars this should be possible, but it seems like the later 60 kwh cars will NOT have the hardware preinstalled.�
Sep 28, 2012
iridium My question is.. if I order the 60kwh pack now, can I add supercharging later? There aren't going to be superchargers in Washington State for a while.. no need to spend the money right away.�
Sep 28, 2012
Lloyd The e-mails to customers explains that it cannot be added later.�
Sep 28, 2012
qwk Exactly. If they knew the details in July and still cannot communicate it clearly in September...�
Sep 28, 2012
youlikeadajuice Absolutely agree...if you knew in July, then say so. The mere fact that George has to keep jumping in to "explain" things is not good.�
Sep 28, 2012
Discoducky it's for the life of the battery.�
Sep 28, 2012
markb1 Yeah.. and this statement from today's email really gets me:
So they either planned to do this and didn't tell us, or they're making this up because they got caught with their pants down. Why the hell would they ship a car with the hardware installed (worth $1000) that can never ever be used (if you don't pay an extra $1000 now)? The answer, of course, is because the contract says the supercharging hardware is included, and now they wish they hadn't agreed to that.�
Sep 28, 2012
Chas F Tesla has finally gone off the rails!
Tesla has grossly over reached from a marketing standpoint. They had it sold with all the positive reviews and unparalleled customer service from a car company. They had 12000 solid reservations, including those planning to stretch to buy the most expensive car in their lives. I was one of them. Completely happy with the 40kw battery as my configuration.
Then, they "included" supercharger access for the 60kw packs. It was a stroke of genius! For all those like me that had gotten comfortable with the financial reality of the 40 kw battery were now stretching even more for the 60 kw. Even though I decided to drop the Tech Package, I was still spending an additional $6250! I never would have believed I would pay that much for a car. They had me.
Then came the Maintenance plan announcement. Tesla lost much respect and trust in my eyes, but I was still in, trying to decide whether to pay for the plan or not. Now this...$2000 for supercharger access. My view of the company has now been completely changed in a very negative way.
I will still buy the car but am dropping back to the 40kw battery and resetting my expectations. I expect to enjoy the car but will never trust Tesla again. Tesla just lost a total of $13,750 of potential revenue from me. I will no longer gush to my friends what a great experience this has been.
Either there is much incompetence in the management chain responsible for these decisions or there is a lot more to this story than we are being told. Either way, it does not bode well for the company at this point. Tesla will have to do something really amazing to turn this mess around.
Good luck.�
Sep 28, 2012
ckessel Why do you say that? Why would it go away if you got a new battery?�
Sep 28, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Yeah, the cables/software etc. should still stay put if the battery's swapped out. It's for the life of the car for sure.�
Sep 28, 2012
contaygious That's a good point and probably what happened,�
Sep 28, 2012
aviators99 Yep, it's pretty obvious, imo. There are a lot of things that have happened lately that (ime) are symptomatic of a company being pressured to move too quickly and announce/release things too early. Tie this together with public market pressures and a leader who is working 2 (maybe 3?) full-time jobs at the same time, and this is the kind of stuff you will see (including the actual vehicle problems we are starting to see). I am really stressed out myself, and it's not even my company. I have no doubt that the Model S will be the best car in the world, but I'm worried about the first couple thousand, of which mine will be one. But I also can't imagine waiting any longer for the car. Definitely letting my emotions get ahead of my brain here...�
Sep 28, 2012
markb1 And what's really slimy is that instead of just eating the costs for everyone that's already signed, they're making up this nonsense about always intending to charge extra for enabling the supercharger support.�
Sep 28, 2012
drees Granted I have no skin in this game, but that's what I always understood to be the case. I really think that people simply totally misunderstood what Tesla was saying.
Here's how I understood the procession of 60 kWh supercharging went:
1. TBD
2. Hardware included - cost to use SCs TBD.
3. Hardware included, $1k for lifetime SC access for people already in the queue, $2k for hardware and lifetime SC access for people who haven't entered the queue yet.
Makes logical sense to me - and early 60 kWh adopters are getting access for half-price. If you don't like the price of the feature, don't buy it!�
Sep 28, 2012
Discoducky Software is tuned the battery. Think about the engineering solution they are trying to solve. When it comes time to replace the battery there will be another "fee"�
Sep 28, 2012
spleen I'm confused as to why people automatically assume a conspiracy or horrible motives to a situation that *might* just be exactly how George described it? I'm not an apologist for Tesla (I still think the decision to to not include Roadster or 40 kWh Model S HPC charging at Supercharger sites isn't a good one) but some of the negativity that I see on this forum (which is supposed to be a Tesla enthusiast forum) sometimes astounds me.�
Sep 28, 2012
engle TSLA uses the common corporate email address convention of <first initial><last name>@teslamotors.com
I have removed actual email addresses so these people don't get SPAM.
Happy TSLA did the right thing by not charging 60 Kwh MVPA-signers the extra fee to "enable" their SC hardware. Excellent good will gesture, IMHO.
Have a great day!�
Sep 28, 2012
markb1 Thanks engle. But maybe you should not post these email addresses in the clear for spambots to pick up.
- - - Updated - - -
When was this the case? AFAIK, they originally said "Optional" and price "TBD" and then they said "Included" and "Included".
Not buying is not an option for those already under contract. I guess you mean don't buy the feature. But really those of under contract should be allowed to cancel and get our deposits back if we choose.�
Sep 28, 2012
GeorgeB Hi everyone,
Let me explain a little further. Mark posted my response to him so I won�t duplicate the post. Thanks Mark, your posting is appreciated. AnOutsider, sorry, but we did not know all the details back in July, nor did we know them two to three weeks ago. The equipment we are using to Supercharge is significant, and took a lot of coordination with local utilities to deliver and activate. All utilities have been very cooperative, and many expedited things for us to make last Monday night happen. But to say the least, it was a very last minute rush to get everything in place. We also didn�t have firm �usage fees� locked down with the utilities that supply the electricity until very recently. It turns out that not only do we have to pay for metered usage, but because of the type of service, in many cases there is a �first usage� fee each month that is quite significant. We have been working thru all these costs and logistics for months.
As I said to Mark, there is nothing hidden going on here. We had hoped to announce the Supercharger network in July. It was impossible to do so. We had to delay the launch until September because there were too many unknowns. We didn�t finalize all the moving parts about pricing until late last night while I was in Boston.
What we always wanted to do was keep Supercharging access easy and the usage fee to a minimum. We also wanted to move the system towards solar. And while all of this was going on, we wanted to make sure to keep options open for everyone who was configuring their car throughout the process. In order to do so, we made the decision to include the necessary hardware in all cars that were being built. This would give everyone the exact same option today as they had in July.
If we had launched in July, the prices for Supercharging would have been:
85 kWh No charge
60 kWh $2000
40 kWh Not available
Those are the exact prices today, except for those who have configured their car already with 60 kWh batteries. For them it is $1,000.
We discussed lots of options for pricing over the past 4 months. Some included an activation fee plus pay-as-you-go fees. But pay-as-you-go fees would require some sort of password, special key or credit card debit arrangement. We did not want to do that. We seriously considered at least 6 or 7 optional payment alternatives, but eventually circled back to keeping it simple� keeping it standard on the 85 kWh cars, and having it as an optional one-time fee when the car is built on 60 kWh cars. Then we wrestled thru a series of other details:
Should the access be free and unlimited, or should it be free for a few years and then have an annual fee�we opted for free and unlimited.
Can it be passed on to a future owner � we decided yes. Should the new owner have to pay an activation fee even though access is free � we decided no. We felt as though these two decisions would increase the value of your Model S.
We went thru a whole series of these scenarios, but ultimately ended up with as simple a solution as we could find. And all this was finalized in the last week.
We also considered what would happen today when we made this announcement. We were pretty sure there would be questions about the language on the Options & Pricing page, the Design Studio and the MVPA. They all said �hardware� and some said �software� would be included in the car. None of them said access was included. It would have been much easier today to go the less controversial �pay-as-you-go� route. There would have been no question about the language to date. We also considered a �per visit fee� that would also have been less controversial. But when we weighed those options, and the need to use a credit card every time you Supercharge, or the need to have a �special key� or �password� to enable the unit each time, we just visualized people out on the road who forgot their password or key, and we just didn�t think that was the right way to go. We really wanted to keep it free, easy, and unlimited. So we felt it was better to go forward with it as �an option� for those who want to consider it, but keep the plan we think is best in the long run, is easy to use, and unlimited.
When the time came to announce the finalized plan, we wanted to acknowledge those who had already configured. Our goal all along was to make sure they had the same option today as they would have had no matter when they finalized their order. We accomplished that by including the necessary hardware and software in their car, but then we decided to do something additional for them. While it may not be viewed that way, that is why we have offered them the option to enable Supercharging for $1,000 vs $2,000. Simultaneously with the announcement today, we sent emails to everyone who has configured a 60 kWh car giving them the option to enable access for $1,000, while also answering a series of questions we thought they might have. We are also individually calling a few customers who have paperwork in hand for a 60 kWh Model S but did not finalize their paperwork this week. We are offering them the $1,000 option as well. We began making these calls at the exact same time as the announcement was released and the emails went out.
To wrap this up, we have tried to keep use of the system simple, we have made it unlimited and transferable, and we wanted to do something nice for those who configured early without full details. That�s how we got to today.
There were also a few references in this thread to other things that have not been announced. It is certainly not that way by desire. Connectivity was mentioned. We have not announced details on this because we are still working on the rates from various carriers. If we had announced the plan two months ago, it would have been more expensive than if we announced it today. We have also been working to simplify a very viable connectivity solution that, if chosen today, would be less expensive, but a pain in the butt to execute. We are trying to enable another way to use this method in a simple way, but we want to make sure we can do it before making an announcement about it. We are actively working on connectivity every day to try and get the most cost effective functionality that is easy to use. We will announce the options when we feel we have the best outcome and pricing possible. We are also working on an extended warranty, pre-paid battery replacement options, and road hazard insurance. None are ready to be announced, but all are being actively worked on. We will announce them when, and if, we are satisfied with the program details.
I hope this helps explain some of what we are doing. While it may not seem so, we are doing a lot of things everyday that are focused specifically on ease of use and minimizing cost for every Model S owner. We will continue to do so.
GeorgeB�
Sep 28, 2012
AnOutsider Excellent clarifications George. I have no skin in the game having ordered 85kwh, but it sucks to see communication issues plague Tesla, so good to have a clearer picture.
*edit* the decision is made, but since its software, you could have had the user pay via the S on screen to keep a subscription going for SC access. No passwords or cards to swipe. Free is better of course, but just an alternative that occurred to me.�
Sep 28, 2012
favo Thanks for the clarifications, George. I can think of one more question that was raised. Is the Supercharger charger access free for the life of the car or life of the battery? From your answer, I will guess the former, but it wouldn't hurt to make it explicit in this thread, lest someone jump to conclusions.�
Sep 28, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Thanks, George. We are definitely a hard bunch to please and are holding Tesla to some very high standards that you appear to be doing your best to live up to - which other auto manufacturer is engaged with its customer base this way?!
That said, unfortunately, Tesla did lose atleast a couple of customers over this and possibly reduced revenue from some others - stepping down to 40 kWh etc. - including myself (I had to give up an option to get SC).
Please, please maintain a simple, public "punch list" somewhere on your website; nothing more than a list of line items that you are actively working on - no elaborate details or incomplete specs required. Things coming out of the blue for us customers is jarring and disconcerting although folks at Tesla may have been working on them for months. Had the service plans or the 60 kWh SC access model been mentioned from atleast earlier this year as things in the oven, the disappointment or unhappiness may have been more tempered once they saw the light of day. Just my 2 Abe Lincolns...�
Sep 29, 2012
GeorgeB AnOutsider - We looked at payment thru the touchscreen, but we were concerned that the Supercharger location might not have strong cellular coverage and therefore not connect...and we agree, free is better. Free was always the goal, and is where we ended up.
favo - i hate jumping to conclusions
gg_wants_a_tesla - I'm still up at 5:30 in the morning trying to answer all the questions I can on this subject. I agree there's got to be a better way. I've been trying to answer as much as I can here from time to time. Unfortunately things here seem to spawn more and more "inaccurate speculation" today than they used to. For instance, Supercharger access being tied to the battery, not the car. We have never said it was tied to the battery, yet that seems to have become a "truth" in a matter of minutes and generated "concern" that should have never been. I've got to come up with a way to provide information that doesn't then generate a stampede of inaccurate assumptions that end up causing unnecessary angst. I am pretty much known for telling it like it is. I need to figure out a way to do that with this group in a way that doesn't end up causing more problems than it achieves in answering questions. Let me think about it a little. I'll come up with something...there's definitely a better way
Have a great weekend!
GeorgeB�
Sep 29, 2012
PhatCat While you're at it, you may as well solve world peace, unify general relativity with quantum mechanics and prove the Riemann Hypothesis.:biggrin:�
Sep 29, 2012
dsm363 I wish I had more than two thumbs. You get them both. Up, of course.�
Sep 29, 2012
jerry33 Thanks George. I agree a more coordinated communications effort would be great and having the web team, store and other staff on the same page much be difficult so we appreciate you being straightforward. Some things will create angst no matter how it is presented. Have a great weekend as well.�
Sep 29, 2012
Tempus I doubt Telsa uses gmail or yahoo and that address has been posted many times before. Any corporate MTA will be dropping spam ip-addresses and filtering spam. Of course it's an ongoing fight, but there's no reason to not post an address like that in the clear.�
Sep 29, 2012
jerry33 George,
Thanks for the responses. As one of those squarely in the middle of this particular item, the additional communication is very welcome. (And yeah, as PhatCat said, you might be looking for a miracle - i have a feeling that a lot of the angst lately will dry up as we all get our cars in hand. The last few miles of the trip are often the most painful).
I also talked to a tesla rep last night while i was mulling over my options (and the wife mentioned upgrading to the 85 as something we should think about this morning, whichi hadnt been considering). He was also helpful. I got confirmation from him that the notional circles on the supercharger map were supposed to be in the 100 to 150 mile range, and he also said that the 60 kwh battery would charge at proportionately the same speed as the 85, so slower, but the same time to a full pack. I dont think ive seen that mentioned here before.
Still mulling over the decision.....�
Sep 29, 2012
dsm363 I think this is understandable because as it gets closer to the time when people actually have to fork out hard cash they become a bit more paranoid about extra fees, hidden charges, and can I still afford this car. For many of us this is 2x, 3x, or 4x the amount that we've ever paid for a car and I'm guessing that many folks here would never pay more than $3[0-9],000 for an ICE car. For me, the Model S will now--after adding the maintenance and more-or-less-mandatory pano roof so that adults can sit in the back seat--cost more than I paid for my house (although not more than what I paid plus improvements).
I like the idea of a punch list that gg_wants_a_tesla suggested, but I understand the problems with also wanting to surprise folks with cool things and not giving the detractors too much ammunition for speculation. Perhaps timing is the key. If the maintenance and the supercharger had been announced at the same time, I believe there would be far less grumbling over the maintenance because, at least for those like me who take vacation trips, one goes a long way to offset the other.�
1/1/2015
guest While all of this sucks for people getting surprised by things, once they are underway in full production and into next year, all expenses should be known by that point and people can reserve knowing exactly what they are getting.�
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