Oct 15, 2012
Todd Burch At the risk of putting myself in the line of fire, I thought the primary attraction to getting a sig was that it's a limited edition car with limited edition paint (if you went sig red). The "you get it first" has always, in my mind, been secondary to that. Then again, I'm a P...�
Oct 15, 2012
Jkam +1 That pretty much sums up what I feel too, and probably said more eloquently than I would have done. I think I've pretty much agreed 100% with all of Arnold Panz's posts on this subject.
I don't see any evidence that Tesla will do anything special for Sig owners. Really sad how the Sig program has amounted to nothing more than a money grab for Tesla. I guess I'm more bothered that I was gullible enough to fall for it.�
Oct 15, 2012
Arnold Panz I'm sure there are some who loved the color and upgraded for that, but I would've been just as happy with a regular color choice. For me, it was showing support for Tesla, and ensuring I got the car first. We didn't know about the S curve then. When they announced pricing and options, I was pretty bummed (well documented here at TMC), but still figured I was getting my car at least two months earlier, and they'd surely offer lots of other goodies. Plus, they told me if I downgraded they'd "try" to get me to my original spot in line, but no guarantees! So I was vulnerable to being worse off if I downgraded at that point. And I was still drinking the Kool-Aid pretty hard back then. By the time they talked about the S curve in production, it was way too late.
Brianman says it best -- the only way to justify in one's mind the Sig premium at this point is as a donation to Tesla, because there really was no benefit to it, at all, at least for me. We know Tesla will make around $7.5 million extra in revenue from the Sig premium. The question is, how much will they lose in the loss of enthusiasts like me not pimping the company like we once did? That's much harder to quantify but I would argue a lot more costly in the long run.
Case in point: a good friend saw the S at a local car show this weekend and was raving to me about it. He was probably ripe to plunk down a reservation on an S or X, but I didn't even bother trying to push him because I frankly don't know what his experience would be like and don't want to put my own credibility on the line with friends by pushing a brand that hasn't treating its best customers in a way I would have expected.
Clearly, I'm not going to sell anything close to $7.5 million worth of cars, but I'm not the only one who feels this way, so multiply my experience times many people and many years. I just think it was myopic, short term thinking by Tesla to charge the premium that they are -- they could've kept me drinking the Kool-Aid indefinitely with a couple of different decisions, and I don't think I'm alone in that assessment.�
Oct 15, 2012
Charged_Up This is exactly the point I made recently in a conversation with management. I can't tell you how many people I have talked to about Tesla and my expectations for the car. But my excitement has been tempered by not wanting someone to go through the lack of communication that I received as a theoretically "preferred" customer. The early reservation holders are Tesla's best salespeople and they have been blowing it by ignoring inquiries and overpromising and underdelivering rather than the reverse. I'm pretty sure they got the message, but the proof will be in behavior from here out....�
Oct 15, 2012
kevincwelch I think Tesla should really do something for Sig owners ex post facto like they did with 60 kWh folks who had already finalized before the SC announcement.
Given your thread (and the options to get grey wheels for anyone), it seems as though the real value in being a Sig owner is the color, branding and being first or close to first.
Tokens of good will should include:
1. Free wireless for 1 year
2. Free service for 4 years
3. Swag
4. Options not available to regular production (CCI, software add-ons, etc.)
I'd be dismayed if I plunked down and interest-free $40,000 deposit 3 years ago and all I got was a paint color no one else had.
Another fine example of how Tesla's innovation hasn't extended to the PR department yet.�
Oct 15, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Second your suggestions, Kevin. 4 years of free service and a free CCI sound like great rewards for Sigs.�
Oct 15, 2012
Jkam What makes you think they will change their attitude/behavior towards the Signatures? Everything up until now has indicated that Tesla is indifferent at best about the Sigs. Oh wait...I forgot they gave one year data plan. That's the only positive action Tesla has taken towards the Sigs. Everything else has been bad news otherwise.�
Oct 15, 2012
steve841 Wow .... Im sensing a lot of hostility ...
I'm giving Tesla the benefit of the doubt only to the extent that I feel comfortable they've had a chance to get over learning production/supply/distribution/delivery and whatever else before I start to feel burned in some way.
If I was to give a timeline, I'd say after they pass the 5,000 mark. At that point, the operation should be much more refined. Orders should have increased as visibility of actual owned models are on the road.
So, FWIW, I'd say by the end of March 2013, if Telsa hasn't "thanked" their signature owners in some way, my attitude is sure to change. But, I've adopted early before only to be let down, so I'm not anticipating a blood pressure increase if we get nothing.�
Oct 15, 2012
Charged_Up I don't know that they will change with respect to sigs, only that I think they have changed with respect to me. But I'm hoping that a renewed focus on customer communication will spread rapidly...:smile:
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Todd - you have to go back nearly three years and understand that the Sig was sold as an exclusive that would have features and badging that production cars would not have. The general feeling is that the difference of a single paint color and white leather (not the most popular interior) was not the exclusive "collectors edition" that most were led to believe. But failing the paint and white interior and "extensive leather" inside, then the big difference became early delivery with a general understanding that low reservations numbers would have cars well before production vehicles were distributed - but that has also turned out not to be the case. So the bottom line is that for a few relatively minor cosmetic differences, sig holders were charged roughly $4-6k more than an equivalently featured production model - and to date the primary difference is the addition of a year's cell service. Personally, I think all of the above would have been tolerable if the company had treated the earlier sig reservers as my understanding of how they treated early roadster reservers - little basket of logo'd items, maybe a close up or two with managers or an exclusive event - that kind of thing. One suspects that almost every ounce of energy has gone into engineering and production to meet a timetable that nobody wants to miss as a public company - but it will hurt down the road in fewer sales as people like Arnold or myself just aren't as gung ho with well-heeled friends as they don't want their own credibility questioned if their referrals are not treated well. That's not to assign any ill intent to anyone, and I do believe that Tesla listens to its customers - likely more than most - but that good intentions have had difficulty getting translated into action. I just think it's a shame of a missed opportunity for Tesla to create huge goodwill and loyalty....�
Oct 15, 2012
Arnold Panz I view this as a sort of Tragedy of the Commons, because when I speak to any individual at Tesla, they totally get it and are very sympathetic to what I say about this stuff, but Someone made a decision, and they all have to toe the company line, even if a majority know its not the right decision. I hold no ill will towards anyone at Tesla (except possibly George B assuming these were his calls, though I doubt it was only him), but collectively as a group of executives, they plain screwed up.
The other problem with an ex post facto gift to the Sigs is they've already lost me. It's a simple thing -- it takes any company a lot to build a good reputation and not much to lose it, especially as a start up. I , and others, were more than willing to give Tesla plenty of rope, but now anything they do is going to feel like a lame effort after the fact, and only because we complained. Meanwhile, at the time these decisions were made there were many of us warning about what could happen if they went down this path. But once the decision was made to do little to nothing for the Sigs, it seems like Tesla dug in its heels instead of trying to listen to its best and most loyal customers. It was a real lost opportunity for Tesla, and that's really unfortunate.�
Oct 15, 2012
PRJIM Tesla could have implemented cheaper alternatives for the first 1000 Signature cars: How about snapping a photo of a customers Model S mounted on a wood plaque with the vin number? This would have cost almost nothing to produce.�
Oct 15, 2012
Jkam It should be interesting to see what happens with X Signatures. As of recently there are less than 200 X Signatures reserved. On Tesla's web page, it says the X Signature will be "wonderfully equipped" and have "exclusive options and colors".
Given what we know from the S Signature program
1) Does Tesla do the exact same thing and offer red exterior/white interior to the X Signatures?
2) Does Tesla add in some other exclusive options/colors? And if Tesla adds exclusive options/colors beyond what was given to S Signatures, does that bother any of the S Signatures?
3) Does Tesla charge the same premium for the X Signatures as the S Signatures?
I think Tesla has put itself in a predicament. If Tesla does what it did with S Signatures, I don't see how it sells 1,000 X Signatures. If I was Tesla, I'd be embarrassed if I couldn't sell out of my "limited edition" model. If Tesla did offer more substantial exclusive options/extras or didn't charge the Signature premium, I'd be happy for the X Signatures, but as an S Signature I think I'd feel taken again.�
Oct 15, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Well put, JKam. Tesla's indeed in a bind here; if they don't do something substantial for S Sigs soon, they may as well not bother with an X Sig line. I feel that folks such as AnOutsider and others who have an X Sig res to go with an S Sig are waiting to get their S and then look for Tesla to step up and do something before choosing to drop to X general production.�
Oct 15, 2012
steve841 I think all of us have to remember some business basics.
1. Tesla is cash strapped.
2. Tesla is clearly dealing with production delays.
3. Staffing. Tesla is increasing staff to try to keep up with production ramp up, show rooms, service, and delivery- clearly it takes a while to develope and train those folks further adding to cash flow problems.
I am sure the powers that be would like to do something special, but reality is, they are trying to survive. It's an endless catching up for Tesla until they get to profitability. So, be patient. Let's not write them off just yet as not customer friendly. There will be missteps and misunderstandings and miscommunication, that's just par for this course.�
Oct 15, 2012
Arnold Panz Great question JKam. I for one would not resent a better Sig experience for the X reservation holders than we got. It would be terrible if Tesla couldn't learn from its mistakes. I'd be much more worried if they didn't think they made any mistakes with the S Sigs and did the same things with the X!
That said, regardless of what the X Sig offers, they can still sell out the X Sigs, but it would be right before production started. In other words, the one true benefit the S Sig program offered was to a very latecomer who wanted to either upgrade or get a new reservation. They are really seeing the benefit of paying the Sig premium. So, if I wanted an X and had enough money, I could just wait until the last minute and then order a Sig. That way, you jump the whole queue without having your money tied up with Tesla for more than a few months. Those who did that with the S seem pretty satisfied that they got bang for their buck in paying the Sig premium.
To Steve's point, this seems to defeat the purpose for Tesla of getting their hands on some free cash during the intervening wait period, but that's the incentive program that the S Sigs created.�
Oct 15, 2012
steve841 My point is far simpler: let's let them build their business before we Signature owners hold our hands out.�
Oct 15, 2012
Jkam I'm not so sure selling out the X Signatures is such an easy proposition. The S Sigs didn't sell out until Dec 2012/January 2013, and with all the downgrades/cancellations (about 25%) one board member was able to secure a Signature S as late as this past June/July. So in my mind, the S Signatures barely sold out. And keep in mind there was a lot more reservations and overall interest for the S at the same point than the X. In fact some board members have said that they will likely downgrade their Signature X reservation if Tesla doesn't do much to make the Signature program more attractive than the S Signatures. Granted X reservations may pick up as the final date gets closer and people see other Tesla cars on the road. However, unless Tesla makes significant changes to the Signature program, I think it will be tough to sell out the X signatures even acknowledging that the latecomers to the party get the best deal and probably will be significant.�
Oct 15, 2012
AnOutsider ...but they held THEIR hands out, and alluded to what we'd get for forking over cash. I think just about every sig holder who didn't jump in last minute likely feels what we've seen so far is insufficient. Sure, we can sit back and wait for them to get their ducks in a row, but in the interim, shouldn't we get some communication on it? We could be waiting for something that's never going to come otherwise.
Aside from your time traveling, I agree(though I think they secured a founders). As someone stated, with the line running a bit smoother by then, there likely will be less value to getting your vehicle early.
�
Oct 15, 2012
steve841 I appreciate your position, I've felt that way at times. However, my preference would be a strong company with a future rather than a shiny new Model S and a bankrupt Tesla. I'd sleep better with a warranty that can be honored over some knick knacks...also, I don't recall anyone pointing a gun to my head to put $5000 down, let alone tossing in another $35,000. If it turns out the P's were the smart ones, then so be it. Live and learn.�
Oct 15, 2012
ckessel If Telsa can't avoid bankruptcy without shafting their Sig customers, then I don't particularly feel like they should be in business anyway. We're talking about maybe $10M? 10k per customer * 1000 cars. They just offered stocks so they could sit on $200M as a safety net.�
Oct 15, 2012
bonnie Harsh. Steve841 didn't say 'it's either bankruptcy or shaft customers'.
Ftr, I am keeping my X Sig reservation - and I (like all of you) have a front row seat. I guess I see it differently than you.�
Oct 15, 2012
steve841 If that turns out to be the case, then Romney was right and we'll all have a $100,000 token of gratitude.�
Oct 15, 2012
ckessel I just went and reread it based on your comment figuring I misread it and it still looks to me like that's exactly what he said.�
Oct 15, 2012
AnOutsider I'm not sure how it comes down to do right by your customers or go bankrupt anyway? That wasn't even part of the scenario. As many have stated here, there is lots they can do for cheap. A plaque? Free maintenance? Swag? Where did anyone say tesla had to spend loads of cash (let alone go bankrupt) to do right by their sig customers?
...and now the return of the "nobody made you do it" arguments... Sometimes I love this place. Sigs operated on faith, just like everyone else. Read the thread.�
Oct 15, 2012
bonnie What about the rest of the time?�
Oct 15, 2012
Arnold Panz Steve, here's the thing. My hostility (more like frustration/resignation) increases with each delay and communication failure because I had several discussions with Tesla after they announced the Sig pricing, and was assured that (a) it would be totally worth the extra money for the extra goodies and such we'd get in the car, and (b) that I was buying the equivalent of a limited edition MB or BMW or Audi etc.
(a) turned out to clearly not be the case, and as for (b), one thing I said at the time to Tesla was that they are not MB or BMW or Audi, and this is a new company with a new product that was very likely to have growing pains. My wife's lease was expiring last month and she really wanted to get a new style GL. We met with MB in July, and they said they'd be available in September. And guess what? They were! No one puts money down on one of those cars and expects delays, so a lack of communication isn't a big deal because everyone knows the car is coming on schedule. Tesla set the expectation that they could charge a premium for the Sig because they could deliver the car in the same way an established automaker could on their limited editions.
Of course I expected delays like this, and I'd be infinitely patient with Tesla if Tesla hadn't charged a premium for the privilege of being a guinea pig. Or maybe the better analogy is a donkey with a carrot dangled out in front of him that he can't quite reach and doesn't know why....
Look, this is all venting from me for a long-settled issue on the Sig pricing, but with each delay and complete silence from HQ, I feel more and more vindicated with what I told Tesla at the time they came out with the pricing. I really wish I hadn't been right, and its pretty frustrating to watch a company like Tesla that I was really rooting for to succeed commit unforced errors. I'm not a genius -- these were obviously bad decisions and rationales at the time they made them.
For reference, GeorgeB's last official blog post (not including what he posted here at TMC on the warranty) was August 21. What's with the radio silence? Why force the front line people to deliver these cryptic messages about the delays? George loves to deliver good news, but I'm not seeing him stand out front to take the bad, although ironically if he just came out with the truth it would be greeted with relief.
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This is the real tragedy. Forget cheap -- they could have done things for no cost at all! How about conference calls or meet and greets for Sig owners? That wouldn't have cost anything except some time! It's not like Tesla is shy about spending money, but if that were really the issue there were other options available.�
Oct 15, 2012
steve841 @arnold.. You have a legitimate gripe. But, that's one reason I put no stock in words only what is written. I'm sure you could call Tesla now and get three people with three different reasons why their production is behind.
As for the poor communication .. I'd guess they are very careful because they are a public company. Litigation comes from any wrong statement these days so....blame the lawyers.
Personally, Sig status was to ensure I got it in 2012 for the tax benefit balancing the extra cost and if something special got added,icing on the cake.�
Oct 15, 2012
ckessel I'm not convinced 2012 is a given for all Sigs...�
Oct 15, 2012
steve841 5000 originally forecast, cut to 3,000+/-
One would find your claim hard to believe .... And it would deal a major blow to stock price.�
Oct 15, 2012
ckessel Sigs well under #500 have been pushed back to early/mid November at this point due to various unspecified delays. It wouldn't take much in the way of further supplier problems to push out finishing Sigs by 4-6 weeks which bumps up against Jan 1st.
I'm not saying it'll happen or that it's even likely and I hope it doesn't, but the point is simply that based on what we've seen going on the last couple months I wouldn't count every Sig as a lock for this year.�
Oct 15, 2012
Doug_G We're holding our wallets out...�
Oct 15, 2012
steve841 Capitalism in action!�
Oct 15, 2012
Jkam I find it funny that with Tesla owning its retail stores, better service and building made-to-order, the whole car buying experience was supposed to be better than going to a traditional car dealership. IMO it has turned out to be the opposite. I've had more aggravation from this car purchase than all my other ones combined and then some.�
Oct 15, 2012
Jkam If they were careful about communication because they are a public company, they shouldn't have three different reasons why their production is behind. They should all be on the same page.�
Oct 16, 2012
steve841 Low level interaction is a far cry from a management statement.�
Oct 16, 2012
mnx Are there any sigs out there who have their car already who are still bothered by this? I doubt it!�
Oct 16, 2012
bonnie They're all too busy driving their cars�
Oct 16, 2012
Sparrow Your right, once you get the car, it won't be on the forefront of your thoughts, but when people ask about where and how you got it, those thoughts will come back again.�
Oct 16, 2012
bonnie No, not these two friends. They're not on the forum and, outside of them being impatient for delivery, I've not heard a negative word from them about Tesla. I suspect (but it's only two data points) that being on the forum drives up the level of dissatisfaction. I think everyone has valid points, but it all gets amplified with the ongoing discussion.�
Oct 16, 2012
AnOutsider I would also wager those on the forum are likely more "invested" -- as in, we know the finer details and actually care. Getting the car will be nice, but it won't erase the delivery experience from my mind, nor will it stop me from thinking I got Shaffer (if this IS all we get) and affect future purchases and referrals to tesla.
I still remember the problems I had getting my r8. That wasn't Audi's fault, it was with the trucking companies we tried to use. To this day I remember the companies that lied and failed and the one that finally came through and ive kept their business card. Ironically, the issue partly came from the fact it was wintery out and no one wanted to drive cross country in that weather. With the delays, I hope my s isn't sloshing through the snow as well�
Oct 16, 2012
Arnold Panz This is no doubt true -- a little information can be dangerous! Certainly my concerns with Tesla's communications (or lack thereof) are a direct result of knowldge that I only know from participation on TMC. My issue with the Sig pricing and the cockiness with which Tesla charged a premium is sui generis and not really related to what I read here. I begrudgingly accepted it, but was skeptical of Tesla's ability to deliver. I'm truly sad that I was right -- I would have loved nothing more than to have been pleasantly surprised.
Either way, I'm still very excited to get the car. I still believe strongly in Tesla's mission, and am certain there's no other car I want to own. My enthusiasm for the car is separate from my feelings about Tesla the company. My unbridled enthusiasm for Tesla the company is gone, and that's a real shame.
Having said that, I want to thank you, Bonnie, for always being a voice of positivity and reasoned enthusiasm for Tesla. It helps keep me from going completely off the deep end!�
Oct 16, 2012
v12 to 12v I'm keeping the faith. I think we will see perks throughout our years of ownership.
We were acting as smaller scale Founders or VC's. I can see us getting notifications of complimentary special upgrades for features that will be offered as options on future cars or upgrades the may be on the Model S 2.0 and beyond. I read that Elon is doing some trials with new developments on his car that enhances performance and handling dramatically. After all, they know we are willing guinea pigs already and we do have a higher tolerance level for the unknown and we can be more forgiving since we understand growing pains and the highs and lows of early adoptership. Although, they may need us sign a NDA for the privilege. (At the same time I refuse to get caught up in the Apple business model of buying a new device every year or so. Nothing would make me go sour faster than that.)
I think they just need some room to breathe in terms of time and money at this stage in the game.
It sounds like Elon will not be putting his real signature on our Signatures. A different Hollywood ending would be that Tesla makes it really big and we get an unexpected envelope delivered to us and find inside some stock options that were set aside for us. Ok, maybe I nodded off and was dreaming since I haven't finished my coffee.
I do think that the best is yet to come. I think its premature to think otherwise.�
Oct 16, 2012
FlasherZ Perhaps it's just temperament. I don't think being on TMC or not would solve my expectations, it just means I may make less calls to Tesla because of other informed customers here.
When I make a purchase of over $100,000, whether it's procurement related to my employment, or a personal expense, I have certain expectations on order status and communications. I expect either a) information systems that can track target dates and status closer than a two-to-three month window and "the factory is building your <x>", or b) weekly updates from my account rep. This is because a purchase this large likely involves timeframe / delivery planning, sequence / resource planning, financial planning, etc. At minimum, I expect a live target delivery date that is updated at minimum weekly, with transparency in the reason for any exceptions (not to gnat's ass details, but rather 'supplier issues' or such). This is what I expect in procurement of any expensive item in my work, and it's what I also expect for personal purchases.
For a purchase this large, I should not be told to expect a call in a certain timeframe, and when that timeframe was missed not hear a word -- but that did happen and I had to initiate a conversation for an update. It should *definitely* not happen a second time, but it did -- and this time it took two e-mails and a phone call over a 2-week period to get it. And a third time? It happened yet again, in that my scheduled delivery timeframe starts in less than 10 days from now yet no one has called me to try and plot potential delivery timeframes.
I've made Tesla aware of my crazy schedule -- I've a packed calendar like many of you, several business trips over the next few weeks, and whatever times I am home I am managing a crazy doctor appointment schedule for my wife's high-risk pregnancy with impending birth due end of November, not to mention balancing the kids' school. Tesla can't expect to call me within 24 hours and say "we'll be there tomorrow to deliver".
I received better advance project planning for my electric co-op's service upgrade of my home, and it was free to me. It's disappointing. Don't get me wrong, I'm going to be elated when the day finally comes, but in this particular case it's not just "last-mile itching" but a true need to ensure delivery is planned given my schedule.�
Oct 16, 2012
AnOutsider I'm not sure if you're implying this or not, but in case you are: we should NOT expect those upgrades for free or even cheap. Roadster owners, sig or not, pay full price for upgrades. Maybe we'll get first crack at them (though I doubt that), but I'm pretty sure they'll be available for everyone as well.
I certainly hope so. It's why I still have my sig reservation.�
Oct 16, 2012
vfx What was special about the Roadster Sig 100?
You paid full price up front ($100K) The car's price was actually $93K with a $30 down payment so it was a $7K upcharge in addition to full upfront payment
Wait between 1 and 2 years longer than the one year Tesla estimated
First 100 VIN#
First delivered with no pause for delivery of VIN numbers 101 and above
Special green color offered (about 40 opted for it)( but you could get a custom color for $6K)
Plaque with owner's name between mounted between the seats
Signature branded door sills
Badging on both sides and rear
At this time, no apparent resale price bump.
What am I missing TEG?�
Oct 16, 2012
dsm363 I agree. Love the car. Are there issues? Sure but I'm confident Tesla will address them. Sig premium is debatable but being able to drive the car makes me think about it even less and I love the Sig Red color.�
Oct 16, 2012
donauker Actually there was a bit of a price break for the Roadster Sig 100. The Sig was a fully optioned vehicle. The initial pricing was $92K base and all options put the price over $100K. My Roadster total price was $99,600 without the premium audio and without the Radiant Red upcharge. Of course that locked in price got increased another $6K plus in the stealth price increase just prior to actual production.�
Oct 16, 2012
AnOutsider I'd also add that the badging the Roadsters got was more than the S gets. I've already touched on the plaque. That alone makes the sig series unique and special. Sig S is (usually) just a red Model S.�
Oct 16, 2012
v12 to 12v No I'm not implying it. I'm just leaving the door open for anything big or small.
I do hope that we at least get some essential updates that may be added to the current Model S if they are released on the current model. For example, upgrades to premium sound since current music formats are not all playable yet or electric folding mirrors due to the width of the car. I'd be plenty happy about those items but i'm not expecting it.�
Oct 16, 2012
Arnold Panz Very well stated, FlasherZ. I think for people used to early adopters in the tech area, a $100,000 purchase for a consumer product is an order of magnitude bigger and different than anything anyone in technology has ever done before, and requires a different level of communication than those who make products costing three or low four figures.�
Oct 16, 2012
engle Tesla Motors needs to learn something from the European luxury ICE playbook. Here is a redacted copy of the email I received the day after I leased a Mercedes in 2010:
"Dear <my name>,
On behalf of <Benz dealer>, I would like to thank you for providing us with the opportunity to earn your business.
It was a pleasure to assist you in the process of purchasing your new vehicle.
We believe that customer relationships are not managed, but earned with excellent service, useful communication, and a commitment to ensuring your complete satisfaction with your ownership experience.
If I can answer any questions or have the pleasure of providing you with additional service, please feel free to contact me directly.
Should you have a friend or family member who is considering a Mercedes-Benz, referrals are not only appreciated but are received as the highest compliment our customers can provide us.
Wishing you many miles of driving enjoyment!
Respectfully,
First Last Name
Direct Sales Manager
"
I wonder what kind of post-sale communication has been received by Signature purchasers who have taken delivery so far?
Also, they must know where each Signature is in the production process. Why can't they load this data periodically into a "status" area of individual customer accounts? It would save them having to deal with most of the inquiries from Signature customers wondering when they might get their vehicle. If Tesla can't do this by the time they ramp up into full production, they are going to drown in emails and phone calls from P reservation holders, IMHO.
If they don't have their own infrastructure on their website in place to do it, then why not at least tweet the last VIN digits of all those cars out on the parking lot?
�
Oct 16, 2012
bonnie You can remind me of all this when I'm waiting on my X. It's a lot easier to stay reasonable when you're not so personally vested.
�
Oct 16, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla I'll be around to poke you then, Bonnie
And, having the Roadster helped too, I'd think. The rest of us are starving Tesla-less masses�
Oct 16, 2012
strider Sig owners take heart!
Top 10 New Car Future Classics - WOT on Motor Trend�
Oct 16, 2012
Arnold Panz I have to flag and save all of these messages for when you're freaking out that X Sig 263 got her car before you with no explanation from Tesla as to why, and then you get delayed a month on your delivery with no explanation!! :wink::tongue::biggrin:�
Oct 16, 2012
ckessel I would suspect that if Tesla survives to ship the X that much will have changed in terms of their processes based on mistakes made and lessons learned with the S.�
Oct 16, 2012
bonnie I refer you to my blog for evidence of how I freak out, where I was 'cell less in Seattle' due to a car problem.�
Oct 16, 2012
ChadS I agree Tesla's communications haven't been the best, and I understand why some people are unhappy. But on the positive side:
There are happy stories as well. For example, I locked in my sig at the last possible moment, and my MVPA said October, but I got my car in September. Stories like that just don't get the same amount of discussion.
The car is awesome. As others have noted, the problems fade to the background once you get the car.
When calculating the "Sig premium", remember that it includes discounts for people that owned Roadsters before a certain point. My sig S cost slightly less than the production S my wife would have wanted (even though it would have had fewer options). I think this let them give a small reward to loyal early adopters (and get fully-loaded cars quickly in to the hands of people with a demonstrated ability to show them off) while at the same time charging a time-based versioning premium for latecomers that wanted to jump the queue and get a car fast. Not a perfect plan...but overall, really pretty good.
Not only is Tesla starting a brand-new car company--an almost impossible task by itself--they are building a type of car that nobody else is even trying to build. And they are including dedicated infrastructure. If they fail, I can't see who's going to step in and take over. I'm not saying we should ignore their mistakes; I agree that can be a disservice in the long run as well, and we are spending a lot of money so we should expect a certain amount of service no matter what. I'm just saying that we should be flexible where we can, make sure our comments are aimed at helping them improve, and work together to see how we can help each other as well as Tesla. (Most posters are doing that already; I'm just reinforcing the idea).�
Oct 16, 2012
v12 to 12v Love your blog, BTW, Bonnie. Lots of useful info in there that I'll take on the road.�
Oct 16, 2012
dsm363 I totally agree. Point out where things can be improved and make sure Tesla is aware so they can improve.�
Oct 16, 2012
bonnie Amen. To everything you said.�
Oct 16, 2012
jerry33 If Tesla fails, my opinion is that, there will be no electric cars (at least in North America) for a very long time, if ever. The Leaf has gotten off to a very shaky start and there are severe technical problems (apparently) in hot weather. Toyota only has one because they were forced to. And all the others are mostly unobtainable.�
Oct 16, 2012
qwk Very Sad, but VERY True. If Tesla fails, expect Roadster and Model S prices to instantly double overnight.�
Oct 16, 2012
AnOutsider Pretty sure that's exactly what this thread is aiming to accomplish.�
Oct 16, 2012
Arnold Panz Completely agree, Chad. And I always try to offer constructive criticism/advice in my posts (and my discussions with Tesla). It's very hard to get everything right, and Tesla's getting a lot more right than not overall. But I think we'd be remiss to not point out where they're falling short -- if our criticisms bring some change for the better with the X and GenIII, then I will feel really good about having opined so strongly about some of these issues.
Tesla's long-term success is absolutely crucial -- any criticism is intended to help them succeed in the short and long term. My biggest frustration is seeing them make mistakes and as they're happening not being able to do anything about it!�
Oct 16, 2012
dsm363 And I think it's doing that. Tesla gets lots of feedback from us and hopefully works to implement what they can.�
Oct 16, 2012
EarlyAdopter Given that Elon Musk personally inspected nearly every single car of the first 1200 or so, and they are called "Signatures" after all, I'm shocked that no one at the factory thought to hand him a paint pen to sign the inside of the drivers door frame or some other spot as he inspected them. Can you image the value of the first Model T's having been signed by Henry Ford? I think it would more than eclipse the cost premium of a Sig.
It's not too late to catch the remaining Sigs at the factory. And for the Signatures that are already out there, Tesla could hold a "thank you" party with Elon visiting stores and inviting Signature owners to drop by and get their car signed. It would be a great opportunity for Elon to get some real world feedback from the first drivers, too.
I feel for you Signatures, and definitely thank you for your pioneering spirit and helping bootstrap Tesla. Here's hoping there's still some surprise out there for you.�
Oct 17, 2012
dsm363 I asked the rep if he could sign that box the keys were supposed to be delivered in (they came in a plastic bag instead) since the box would be more portable and he could sign a bunch in his office but that didn't happen.�
Oct 17, 2012
stevezzzz Thought I'd weigh in here as a Friend of Bonnie. Yes, I've got a Sig S in my garage and yes, I'm a happy camper. I put off reading this thread until today and I'm glad I did: so much angst! I'm not arguing the main points: the Signature value proposition is pretty iffy for those who didn't qualify for the Roadster Early Adopter discount and pretty clear for those who did. I put down my $5K S deposit at the time I bought my Roadster, in 2009 (because as much as I enjoyed my Roadster---19,000 miles worth of trouble-free fun---the S is the car I wanted from the first) and upgraded to a Sig in early 2012. Sig #187 was delivered to my home and put in my garage while I was out of town; the delivery specialist met me when I got back, on a Sunday evening, to handle the paperwork and do a walk through.
That's a pretty special level of customer service, and it's consistent with my experience over the nearly three years I've been a Tesla owner. As for the S itself, well: it's a pretty special automobile and, btw, it's also gorgeous. It's super quiet, comfortable, roomy and a kick-ass performer...and I didn't even get the Performance model. It makes me smile every time I take it out for a spin.
So take heart, Arnold, et al: I expect you'll find your ownership experience to be a lot more satisfactory than the pre-delivery woes. Could Tesla have done better by its Signature buyers? Of course. Will they be able to recoup the loss of good will and ambassadorship this thread implies? Remains to be seen. Meanwhile, the S is a car to love, and I'm happy to have invested my dollars to play a small part in helping launch a new company with a big vision, a company that all we early adopters so dearly want to see succeed.�
Oct 17, 2012
bonnie And having worked on engineering teams with Steve for years, I can attest to his high standards. And any stories he tells about me are not true.
�
Oct 17, 2012
Tommy Well chosen words to close out a thread that has, imo, debated, dissected and discussed all viewpoints regarding the value of the S Signature.�
Oct 17, 2012
Arnold Panz Steve, thanks for your thoughts on this. It's a good perspective, and one I sometimes need to remind myself of because I get wrapped up in my current experience with Tesla instead of focusing on getting this amazing car that I've coveted since 2009. I've never really doubted how much I'm going to love the car -- otherwise I would have bowed out of my reservation long ago.
My disappointment is partially with Tesla and their communications the last few months (apparently acknowledged by GeorgeB on TMC a few minutes ago, subject to an e-mail later today), but mostly with myself for keeping my Sig reservation after they announced the pricing. An expensive lesson learned, for sure, but hopefully if Tesla is successful I will feel like I contributed my extra bit to its success!�
Oct 17, 2012
brianman I'm kind of surprised MT didn't get this right.
There aren't 1000 Signature vehicles. There are 2500. There theoretically were 1000 U.S. Signature, but as noted in prior threads it's likely only accurate to say "1200 in North America" rather than "1000 in the U.S."
But that isn't my quibble.
While this might be correct on a worldwide scale (out of the 2500), we won't know until/unless Tesla releases the statistics on how many Sig owners opted for Performance.
In short, MT muddied it all up.
- - - Updated - - -
I've held off on this thread to avoid increasing personal frustration but I'll just toss this out there for consideration.
Signature difference (roughly):
- specific flavor of Red exterior (option)
- white interior (option)
- early delivery (for those that didn't get victimized by batching drama)
- block from picking some exterior options
- block from picking gray interior
- $35k additional reservation cost
- required to pay for wheel upgrade
- sig premium on final price
IMO, 6 should have covered 1,2,3.
8 has offered Tesla value, but not the customer
4,5,7 rubbed salt into the wound�
Oct 17, 2012
Arnold Panz I thought you considered this a donation to Tesla!�
Oct 17, 2012
brianman I do. It's still a premium.�
Oct 19, 2012
Brian H Even or especially the good ones?
:tongue:
:biggrin:�
Oct 21, 2012
spatterso911 Well, Yahoo Autos now recognizes Tesla Model S Signature Performance as a future classic car...
Tesla Model S Signature Performance is a classic
Granted, they were wrong in assuming ALL sigs are P85 models...�
Oct 22, 2012
bonnie If you're going to quote people on the forum in an article 2012 Tesla Model S Signature Series: Is It Worth The Premium?, please get people's names correct (and perhaps ask if they mind being quoted). "Arnold Panz" is a screen name, not the reservation holder.�
Oct 22, 2012
AnOutsider lazy reporting as usual. Though, if they've gotten wind of it, I'd assume Tesla definitely has and should be getting their arses in gear. It's entirely plausible though, that they feel they have given us value. If that's the case, it's not what I was sold on and would happily drop my X reservation. Heck, if someone wanted to pay a premium for my car, I could sell it and get back in line for a more refined S in the configuration I actually WANT and at a lower cost. Value indeed.�
Oct 22, 2012
Arnold Panz You and me both! But at this point, I think for Tesla it's water under the bridge. If they could go back in time and do things differently I'm pretty sure they would, but at this point all they can try to do is make things better going forward. I'm pretty confident that X Sigs will have a more enjoyable experience during the ramp up as they build their cars than we did, but that's the price we pay (literally) for being first in line.�
Oct 22, 2012
bonnie The author is a reservation holder, so not so much 'gotten wind of', but is part of this group. And yes, lazy reporting.
I think it's hysterical that your screen name is quoted as "Arnold Panz, of Miami". That should give some Fletch fans a good laugh.�
Oct 23, 2012
NigelM Oh now you ruined it....I had to move the "Fletch" posts here. :tongue:�
Oct 24, 2012
dsm363 For those hoping to get that cool silver box for the key fobs (I thought they would at least be given to Signature owners), it looks like that was a Founder only gift. Don't think they should have displayed that with such pride if they weren't including that in the car but oh well.�
Oct 25, 2012
doug I recently saw this. It's ridiculous really. They hadn't even bothered to link to this thread. Some members besides Josh are quoted as well, but without attribution.
I sent the editor a note to remedy the situation, and they did add a link, but it's lost in the noise of all their Skimwords-type links. I mentioned that they might have asked permission before quoting people, just as a courtesy, and this is the response I got.
�
Oct 25, 2012
KBF And I would reply that that's exactly why they shouldn't quote TMC in the first place. A forum isn't really a "reliable" source, and a real journalist would PM a member and then interview them directly. Journalistic integrity is rare.�
Oct 25, 2012
steve841 I find that hilarious!
So typical of today's reporting. Exactly why the internet is a reference and not a source.�
Oct 25, 2012
ElSupreme And it is only going to get rarer.
Emory University plans to close its journalism program
Emory Cuts Journalism Program
Sounds to me like they need a new/another dean to me.�
Oct 25, 2012
doug Well, I think members' opinions are as reliable as any other opinion, just as long as it's put in context. And in this case the opinion of Model S reservation holders/owners is the story, which is fine. Just think it's nice to ask before they quote you.
Really though, the germ of the story is here (and should be credited), and then the "author" should have just asked to interview a few folks. We've had several TMC members interviewed in the past.�
Oct 25, 2012
Arnold Panz Aren't journalists taught a modicum of skepticism? For all anyone knows, I could be a 15 year old kid in my parents' basement in Wichita. Quoting people with non de plume's from the Internet without even asking for a real interview (or name) is pretty slipshod.�
Oct 25, 2012
bonnie Makes me want to add something to my signature that indicates they're not free to quote me without talking to me first. It's not like you said they should ask TMC's permission. You mentioned they should have checked with the people they were quoting.�
Oct 25, 2012
Doug_G OMG that is ridiculous. My comments are fair game because I made them in a public place and a journalist didn't edit them first? (And I do mean my comments - I was in fact quoted without permission or attribution.)
If this is where journalism is heading, I can see it now:
CNN Breaking News Report: According to somebody I just overheard on the street, Iran is about to announce new higher uranium enrichment levels. Details at six!
(Note to all reporters: that was sarcasm.)�
Oct 26, 2012
dsm363 Posts about journalism and media bias, NPR and other new organizations moved here
Quality of journalism/media bias�
Oct 29, 2012
Andrew Wolfe I picked mine up Saturday and just today, I noticed that Elon actually did sign it - with a Sharpie!
Is anyone else's signed? Maybe the location is just secret?�
Oct 29, 2012
steve841 A picture would be appreciated!�
Oct 29, 2012
dsm363 That's awesome. I asked for mine to be signed since I know he was personally inspecting each of the early ones but don't think it happened. Can you share on the car where he signed it? Did you ask for him to do that or you just found it when going over your car?�
Oct 29, 2012
NigelM I made that joke way back here and a few people speculated on the location (perhaps the joke was too subtle). Did he really do it?�
Oct 29, 2012
v12 to 12v Maybe they are watching us...�
Oct 29, 2012
KBF I'd love to see an actual Signature on mine. Not that I'll be selling mine any time soon*, but I think it would be a great touch. Although probably someplace hidden like the glove box.
*I imagine Elon signing it in person would actually raise the value down the road, since it looks like he will be / is an incredibly successful businessman.�
Oct 29, 2012
v12 to 12v I tend to keep anything that is autographed for me forever. How can you let a personal touch like that go?�
Oct 29, 2012
KBF Maybe my grandkids will sell it someday�
Oct 30, 2012
STxTesla David Nolan of Green Brain....errr....Green Car Reports failed to mention that Tesla has stated that Sig owners will eventually be rewarded for the early adoption. I have faith that Tesla will do something special for us.�
Oct 30, 2012
Andrew Wolfe Here be the picture.
I just found it yesterday. Do I need to get it authenticated like on Pawn Stars :smile:?�
Oct 30, 2012
mlascano Andrew Wolfe, is this the sun visor?�
Oct 30, 2012
AnOutsider To be fair, many things Tesla originally intended to do have not come to pass. It doesn't necessarily mean there was any mal-intent behind it, just that things change...�
Oct 30, 2012
PRJIM If I had a signed visor I would take that visor off, get a replacement from Tesla and keep the signed visor in a safe place. Having a signed Elon Musk visor has to improve the resale value of your car.�
Oct 30, 2012
Zextraterrestrial looks authentic to me
I think he did the M after the other stuff (usk?) in mine. It is a small awkward car to sign if I didn't see him sign it myself I might think it was a forgery:wink�
Oct 30, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla I'd raise a stink with Tesla about the car coming with 'graffiti' straight from the factory and will demand some recompense for the pain and suffering :tongue:�
Oct 30, 2012
Zythryn I am so damn envious you wouldn't believe it
Did you ever see the scene on Big Bang Theory where Penny Gives Sheldon a napkin signed by Lenoard Nimoy for Chistmas? That would have been me when I discovered Elon signed my Tesla�
Oct 30, 2012
Andrew Wolfe Yes - driver's side - when folded down
- - - Updated - - -
That extra $10G now seems so worth it :wink:�
Oct 30, 2012
v12 to 12v Saw it! I'm with you on that.
Since I'm from the fabulous Great Northwest, I wouldn't have seen it for at least another 9 months! I tend to forget that we even have those visor thingies.
Now it will be the first place I look when I get mine.
- - - Updated - - -
And the $35k loan too.�
Oct 30, 2012
mlascano
Cool! I'm assuming your sun visors don't have the lighted mirror, right? Since they have promised to replace them down the line you can keep your autographed visor safely for posterity! :smile:�
Oct 30, 2012
Andrew Wolfe No lights on mirrors. Barely mirror on the mirrors... They look really cheap. (Other than the sharpie signature)
The steering wheel, on the other hand, feels like it would be right at home in a Bentley.�
Oct 30, 2012
mlascano Hey, well now your cheap visor is potentially a collectible! Value has been added to your Signature Model S :wink:�
Oct 30, 2012
dsm363 That's awesome. Congrats. Did you ask your rep to get him to sign it or he just did it?�
Oct 31, 2012
STxTesla Maybe Elon will sign 1000 sun visors and send them out to all Sig owners. That would make it a true Signature Model S.
I guess he would have to use a silver sharpie on my visor....it's going to be black.�
Oct 31, 2012
PRJIM All visors/headliners are the same color from the factory. Tesla uses this beige color on visors/headliner as it reduces eye strain.�
Oct 31, 2012
Andrew Wolfe I just found it when the sun got in my eyes.
I only asked my rep for 1 thing - my car. I didn't want anything else to distract him.�
Oct 31, 2012
JakeP I wonder if Elon signed every Sig, or at least every one he inspected (though possibly in different places)? Maybe this is just the most obvious signature, and the first to be spotted? Though I find it hard to believe that Cinergi wouldn't have found his by now.�
Oct 31, 2012
dsm363 I actually asked for the key box to be signed by him (one I found out we won't get since it is only a Founder thing) but hoped he'd have signed my car too. I'm sure he checked it since it was one of first 100. Anyway, awesome present and surprise.�
Oct 31, 2012
cinergi lol nope nothing that I've seen. Wonder if the sig is in a unique location for each car. I haven't exactly been looking ... hmmmm�
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