Nov 12, 2014
zhur0002 So about a month ago I purchased a lightly damaged 2013 Model S 60kw with 2600 miles on it and have been trying to make it work again. Tesla will not sell me any parts due to the salvage status of the car, they don't even want me bring it into their service center. Their certified body shop told me that they are not allowed to work on salvage car. Which is a load of BS. I have my own body shop and have been working on EV for a few years now and never received such a cold shoulder. My car has absolutely no frame damage and should not have been salvaged in the first place. The most frustrating part of it all, if I had the parts I could have this car 100 % fixed in a day.
I could not power the car up due to the HV battery being disconnected and the terminals being taped off. My 12v bat was long dead because the car sat at auction since march but I was able to charge it. I was calm about the HV battery and taking my time fixing other stuff and locating parts on ebay because car was telling me it had 100 miles of charge in the HV bat(when it was unplugged). On Monday I dropped the battery pack and connected it up. As soon as I connected it up the charge went to 5 miles and than 0. I had to bypass the pyro fuse and replace a 30amp fuse to get the HV system to wake up, I was able to move the car around the shop under its own power and plugged it in to charge.
Had car plugged in at 120v 12amp charging @ 4 mph overnight (did not want to overheat main battery since it has no antifreeze yet). When I came back in the morning charge was at 35 miles, and was not charging anymore. Had errors on dash, 12v battery low, car may not restart, car may shut off unexpectedly, car not drivable contact tesla service. Put jumper pack on it still could not turn it on which is weird.
The 12v battery had 12.6 volts going through it. I do not think its enough to close the relays to turn on the main hv battery. A good 12v battery supposed to have 13.3v to 13.8 v going through it and 14.3 to 14.8v when the hv bat is connected to it. But I'm not sure on that. When the car ran it had 12.9v on Monday.
I'm hopping that it's the 12v that is causing the problem not my main hv bat having some error in it, and shutting itself off. Being at low charge for such a long time.
Took the 12v battery out of the car and charged it overnight so hopefully it will work today again.
Question of the day, does anyone know at what voltage the 12v opens closes up the solenoids to power up the HV system? Additionally how many cranking volts does a good 12V battery supposed to have? I had mine tested and it is producing 356 cranking amps.
12v bat is not sold anywhere except tesla, any model s owner could you order one for your car and I will pay you for it. Any help would be greatly appreciated I really want to start driving this car!�
Nov 12, 2014
spaceballs 12v battery likely can't hold much of a charge now. If it's anything like the Roadster battery it's just an 12v AGM battery, it should be easy to find a substitute.
Oh that sounds like it still might be good.. but no idea of it's total amp hours though.
I would remove the bad 12v battery, and just connect up a full normal 12v car battery to the front battery jumper terminals and let it charge overnight again to see if you get the 12v battery error again.
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oh... I wouldn't do this... there is an pump that WILL try to run dry, and can burn out if there is no fluid present... Please add in antifreeze.
Also it might throw up error codes if it able to detect it's running dry.�
Nov 12, 2014
zhur0002 I think I have another issue somewhere. Unless the car tried to update and Tesla shut it off. With the car powered just by 12V bat error code are "Car needs Service unable to Drive" will not move out of Park, "12V Battery power Low car may shut down unexpectedly" and "Car needs Service car may not restart"
With the jumper box connected to the front terminals bat voltage is 13.3V and the only error "Car Needs Service car may not restart" will go to Drive but nothing happens, charge port opens but is solid red. HV system is still a sleep because I can't hear the solenoids clicking to turn it on.
Received my 3 way valve today and was able to fill up my cooling system, cooling pump works I can hear antifreeze going through all the hoses and it sucked the fluid from above max to min.
I'm kind of stumped now, why would it work one day than stop working. There is one mystery relay that was laying on the floor when I first got the car. Its a gray Omron 8567 relay, I have no idea where it goes and if its even from this car.
Does anyone know what would cause "Car needs Service car may not restart " error?
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Car was purchased through Manheim. I was able to get majority of the parts through ebay, that had light damage on them and are still usable. Biggest issue that I ran into so far was, that the key was lost at the auction tesla would not make another key for me. I got really lucky and was able to contact the original owner who had a spare key, thank you Phil.
There is going to be a really messed up model S with the battery taken out of it going through copart on Friday, I will try to buy it and salvage all the airbags from it after that my car will be just about complete. Except it does not want to turn on now.�
Nov 12, 2014
kennybobby You might want to pull the 3G card out so they can't shut you down, but it may be too late. These cars are just big cell phones with wheels and nobody has cracked the code yet. Search the forum and you will find others have had your same experience trying to rebuild one.�
Nov 12, 2014
Cerie Isn't this the exact same thing that one guy in San Diego went through? I thought all Tesla wanted from him was to get a chance to inspect the car and then have him sign some kind of release in order to fully "activate" the car?�
Nov 12, 2014
spaceballs This is the first I've heard of this. At most I just thought it would disable the supercharger ability.�
Nov 12, 2014
randompersonx This whole Salvage cold shoulder thing really is a very sad move from Tesla.
What would they prefer, the car is crushed and recycled?�
Nov 12, 2014
Victory The trouble was there was some language in there that said Tesla had the right to take the car away from him if they deemed it not up to their standards. That's a pretty scary clause, especially if you've already spent a few thousand dollars fixing it.
I think Tesla is just playing the safe legal route so they don't make headlines in a bad way. Imagine if someone drove a improperly fixed salvage title Tesla and it caught on fire because of its flaws. It's bad press for Tesla no matter how you spin it. A fledgling auto-maker that already has tons of doubters can't afford for something like that to happen.�
Nov 13, 2014
wk057 It sounds like your DC to DC converter is either damaged or otherwise not functioning (fuse?). I would start there.
If you were able to charge and move the car, then the car is not "deactivated."�
Nov 13, 2014
spaceballs My guess is the the car noticed a very serious issue, i.e. battery coolant pump running dry then throwing an error code thus causing the "Car needs Service car may not restart" error. At this point it could place itself into an state where Tesla SC would have to reset the error code to make it drivable.
I don't believe in the scenario where the car is phoning home and Tesla then remotely disables the vehicle due to it's salvage state. Because I think this would be huge liability issue if they did that after you purchased the car in a drivable state.
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I agreed with wk057.�
Nov 13, 2014
wk057 I've dismantled a battery pack and have had a hand in some disassembly of another badly damaged salvaged Model S.
If your car has passanger side damage low on the car, it is possible some of the HV cables are damaged. If it is an older VIN the DC to DC is in the front passanger side "firewall" area and could be damaged
The HV stuff is tied in under the rear seat bottom in a junction box in the middle. I can't recall if there is a fuse there or not...
The BMS inside the battery pack is never off. It is powered internally whether or not the pack contactors are closed or not. Not sure if this makes a difference or not, but if the pack were sitting discharged for months I could see it having issues.�
Nov 13, 2014
spaceballs Actually you bring up a good point, zhur0002 what is your HV battery voltage level?�
Nov 13, 2014
wk057 If he can't get the contactors to close, there is no place to directly measure it without opening the pack or having access to the service menu.
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If opening the pack is something you're considering doing, there are two places I could see the pack voltage being measured without a full disassemble. First being at the contactors, carefully, under the plate where the HV connector is. The second would be at the end of the series loop in the front under the hump part, near the black plastic cover where the pack fuse is. However, I'm not sure exactly whats under there in a 60kWh pack...�
Nov 13, 2014
zhur0002 I'm afraid to open up the battery I do not have the right tools or equipment to go that far into the car. I feel like I'm trying to diagnose a spaceship with a volt meter with this car. None of my diagnostic tools work with it!!!!
I do not know how to check the voltage of the HV battery, I do think its always shut down until the car tells to turn it on. If I were to take the battery down and put my volt meter on the plug connectors it would read 0V. I would need to jump some of the low voltage connectors that go into the right side plug to activate the battery.
My damage was not extensive enough to damage any of the high voltage connectors here is a link that a friend took http://ccmanor.com/TeslaBeforeBodyWork/ of the car before anything was done to it, as you can see the only damage to the frame is a tiny chip in the end cap of the right rail, that I do not even want to mess with and will never effect anything in safety or how the car works. It is even crazy that the insurance company totaled the car, I have their original estimate on fixing the car. It is crazy they told it will be 104 hours of specialized tesla labor to put the car together @ $150. 6.2 hours of specialized labor to replace the windshield, they must be watching the glue dry!
Tesla is running on a very dangerous line here they gave certified shops a monopoly so they can charge what ever they want and insurance either has to pay or total a car. This should be illegal. Additionally they are going to hurt themselves in the long run. There will be more and more cars that will get into accidents and if insurance will need to total almost every car due to a fender bender, it will jack up the insurance rates or some insurance companies will not even want to insure Teslas. That would be really a shame because the car is simply amazing. It is built so logically so easy to work on and simple. Getting quite deep into my car and being an engineer by trade I'm still trying to figure out what I would do differently and nothing if I were making a Tesla and nothing comes up.
I also find it very interesting that the car charged almost exactly to 20% of full battery capacity and shut off. 20% is a good safe level to keep the pack, maybe just a coincidence. I attached the pictures I took of the car when I first plugged it in and a picture of when I came the next morning to the shop. I know that my battery was not completely dead, because like I said earlier car moved under its own power.
I will look for more fuses under the back seat I did not see any, unless they are hidden inside the units. Anyone knows where all the fuse locations are?�
Nov 13, 2014
zhur0002 My pack was never completely dead it was able to move the car under its own power before I plugged it in. Where are you located in NJ do you have a shop there? I will check the junction box under the back seat today. I already have the seat out but did not find anything interesting under there by first look. Thanks
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My vin is p20838 a 60kw�
Nov 13, 2014
ggr That is not correct. There was nothing in the Tesla agreement that said that. It was the owner, petulantly saying "they can just keep it", he wanted to wash his hands of the whole deal.�
Nov 13, 2014
zhur0002 Was going to bid on this car at copart to use for parts primarily for dash airbag and steering wheel air bag and knee airbags but it already up to $6900. The car does not even have a battery pack what are people thinkinghttp://ww2.copart.com/us/Lot/29882594?searchId=1474088178
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Nov 13, 2014
JST
If Tesla isn't selling parts to anyone other than authorized shops, it's going to drive the value of parts cars up.�
Nov 13, 2014
brkaus What is the value of the raw batteries?�
Nov 13, 2014
wk057 Interesting...
Is it still drawing power when connected to the wall?
If so the pack contactors are closing maybe, and might be able to read the voltage under the rear seat.
You appear to have the older DC to DC.
You are correct that you would read 0V anywhere on the outside of the pack by itself, without opening it.
First thing is first, get a fully charged 12V battery in there if you haven't already. Check all of the fuses on the battery (12V) panel right on/near the battery.
If it drove before it should drive again unless something else got damaged somehow.
Could test by trying to blast the heat or defrost. Those need the main battery pack working.�
Nov 13, 2014
zhur0002 Took the junction box apart. There is no fuses in there just solenoids. My errors change when I disconnect yellow and gray wire the one that is by the pyrofuse. I know that solenoids stay open without that wire connected, that's how the car shuts itself off in event of the accident when the pyro fuse blows. In that pyrofuse circuit there is also a 30amp fuse mine was blown. When I bypassed that fuse car came a live last time, I did not have a fuse in that circuit. Could it have shorted something out? Where does that yellow and gray wire go?�
Nov 13, 2014
zhur0002 I unplugged it from the wall, when it first had the problem and stopped charging was able to pull the cable out from the port. Now it just opens the door of the port but never unlocks the port so I can't get the cable plugged in. I had the exact same behavior with that 30amp fuse blown and solenoids open.
No heat, last time I went to connect the 12V battery the DC DC inverter clicked shut and than clicked open again. Weak 12V did not have a battery booster on the car at the time? When I connected the booster still nothing but had a good voltage at the battery 13.3V�
Nov 13, 2014
wk057 You may want to disconnect the 12V battery completely for a bit (hour or so) and let things settle down if you haven't done so already. This brought some life into the salvage I was tinkering with (was not mine). The HV battery will be essentially disconnected while the 12V power is gone, also.
In my examinations I noticed there are quite a few tamper switches around the car to prevent certain actions, like taking the cover off the back of the charge port.
The contactors inside that juction box are the ones for supercharging. They allow the charge port to be connected directly to the battery HC+/HV- when properly initialized.
I'm not sure off hand where those wires for the fuse go, but if your fuse was blown and you bypassed it whatever caused the fuse to blow in the first place may now have a problem.
But really, a good old reset (no 12V power for a while) might do some good. Make sure to put a 30A fuse of some kind in that place instead of a bypass, though, before firing things back up. I also suggest checking all of the 12V fuses in all three fuse boxes AND the larger fuses at the 12V battery itself with a continuity tester before reapplying 12V power.�
Nov 13, 2014
Drtadakichi I am going to give you guys some food for thought here. If you manage to get this thing running (which from what I have seen on here so far, doesn't seem likely) then you will have a car that will fail in the future, and you won't be able to replace it. The modules of this vehicle aren't plug and play. If your DCDC goes out you can't just slap another one in without going to the SC. They shut you out of service and charging because they don't know what state you have put the vehicle into, and it makes it a HAZARD for you or anyone else not HV certified to be around. Plus, how do you think public charging stations/Tesla charging station owners would react if your non-certified Tesla blew up their charger because of a fault you weren't aware of? The Tesla Salvage Certification is rough, I won't deny that, but its perfectly reasonable considering they want to protect the rest of the Owner's Charging Infrastructure.�
Nov 13, 2014
kennybobby Did your HV junction box under the rear seat look like the one shown in this thread? If so there are 3 fuses as shown in the schematic, one goes to the DC-DC.
There is a tamper switch for the lid of the HVJB (magnetic reed switch?) that will lock out the pack, so either the lid must be in place or a jumper put in place. Do you have single or double chargers? If single then there is a jumper stowed in the box for the second charger which could be used to 'operate' with the lid open and you might measure the pack voltage off the fat copper buss bars at the rear of the box.
Battery Power-Up After an Accident
i think direct Tesla buyers are not allowed to reverse engineer their cars so there is no information or less on how to fix them, slavage owners are by necessity required to reverse them...�
Nov 13, 2014
zhur0002 The car was already running after the accident I got it to turn on and move under its own power. Salvage car is not a bad car, for example, if your car would get a bunch of hail damage insurance would make it a salvage. Estimate to fix car is $45k, insurance estimate that salvage car will sell for $50k at auction market value is $80k. So they write you a check for $80k sell the car for $50k and are only out $30k instead of $45k plus rental car expenses etc. Does this mean that your hail damaged car is HAZARD, tesla will not touch it?
Nothing vital was damaged on my car from the accident, if your car sat for 10mo with the HV bat disconnected you would probably have same issues like I have with your clean titled car. Additionally there is no risk to the charging infrastructure if there is any problem at all with a car or charger solenoid would open up charging will stop or never even start.
Thanks for the other ideas I will try them. I also have an idea that might wake it up. HV junction box looks like the one in the thread but I could not see fuses in it will take picture of it tomorrow. My car did not have supercharging capability and does not have dual charger option.�
Nov 14, 2014
ElectricFury Sorry to hear about your misfortune!
Now that tesla is making some money ad becoming more popular, i guess they can do what they want...�
Nov 14, 2014
David_Cary I wonder what this attitude by Tesla is going to do to the salvage values. The decisions by the insurance companies are based on getting $40k or whatever at auction. No one who has read these threads will pony up $40k for a salvaged Tesla. There will be a few more buyers but then it will be common knowledge and people might pay $10k just to part it out but even that will take several years to recoup.�
Nov 14, 2014
Zarwin Another data point. My car failed with the same common "12v battery low" errors but the 12v battery was fine. Turned out to be a "pressure switch" in the junction box(possibly the tamper switch mention earlier?). See image below for description
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Nov 14, 2014
glhs272 I understand the idea of wanting to keep the public safe. I would be happy to work with Tesla hand-in-glove. But they don't seem to want to work with me. Even if I paid them. If I wanted to install a perfectly good battery, have Tesla inspect said battery to make sure it's good and safe, have Tesla install said battery to keep me from doing it and to keep me safe, they won't do it. They won't even sell me a brand new battery and install it. They have taken a position that we are not owner's of our vehicles, but rather just users.�
Nov 14, 2014
zhur0002 A little confused I thought there was a junction box is under the rear seat in the middle. What junction box is in the frunk, is it the one with all the connections and fuses that sits above the 12v bat?
After thinking about my issues over night I'm wondering if the only problem that I have is bad ground at the bat. When I first put on my neg terminal and pushed down on it yesterday I heard my solenoids briefly close and open up again. I have not ever tightened my neg terminal for convenience reasons. Its really easy to disconnect 12v bat, and a must if your HV system is not turned on because the 12V bat will die very quickly without the HV system charging it. On the other hand everything works door handles, windows, sunroof so it should have plenty juice.
Another interesting thing happened when the solenoids closed for a second in updated the battery status, went from 35mi of range to 36mi. At this point I think its a connection issue could be a bad connection somewhere and a weak 12v bat. Where could I get a 12v battery that will work? Any tesla owners that want to buy a spare one for their car?�
Nov 14, 2014
zhur0002 Insurance company always wins if that was not the case they would be out of business. They decide to make a car salvage or not salvage. I know in Michigan where it is very hard and expensive to become salvage car agent (Need to have a dismantler license and a whole bunch of other stuff, I'm a Michigan Salvage Agent) insurance sells about 75% of their vehicles with clean titles, that way people from other states and non agents can bid on the cars. Some of those "clean titled" cars are so gone they should be part cars. So my guess to get good amount for their salvage insurance will just leave Tesla's clean title and that's when Tesla will pay for it. There will be a bunch of car's getting their batteries replaced under warranties because they sat uncharged for month etc.. and their unlimited mile 8 year warranty will not help them.
I look at the car because that's what I drive, not the title and tesla should do the same. It is still a tesla even if it had an accident and tesla should support it just like any manufacturer does. Unless tesla thinks that their $100k cars are disposable.
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Maybe Tesla should stop supporting their car's after their warranty expires also, it could be an issue with body getting tired and the battery getting older could be a safety issue if it just fails in the middle of a highway?�
Nov 14, 2014
Zarwin I'm not sure, I only know what they told me, "you had a bad sensor", and what was on the invoice. The car was charging and cut off long before completing the charge. Got into it to see the low 12v battery (and other messages) and the car would not go into drive, had to be sent via flatbed to the SC where they quickly repaired it.�
Nov 14, 2014
K5ING A couple of the pictures you posted on that link show the car on a dolly. Did you tow the car with the back wheels on the ground for any distance? I didn't think you could do that unless the car could be put into "tow mode". Could that have messed something up that's causing some of the error messages you're getting?
If you can't get it going, you might be better off just parting it out. You might get some good $$$ for them since parts seem to be so hard to get from Tesla. The battery could to to someone wanting to do a home solar power storage project.�
Nov 14, 2014
zhur0002 Of coarse the car is tow mode, wheels would be locked up if it was not with the brakes applied. Car on the dolly only goes between our shops about a mile, and does not exceed the speed of 20mph. I already have some good $$$ in this car it would be a shame to part out the car its almost a brand new car with no structural or electrical damage on it. After all its not magic, something is causing it not to turn on I'm hoping something simple since it turned on already once and ran. I know the SC would probably have it figured out with in an hour. I have a few Nissan Leaf's in my junk yard that have batteries could be used for solar projects, it would be a lot cheaper for one to connect 3 leaf batteries than get 1 tesla bat.�
Nov 14, 2014
curt_toolman I hear that Pep boys sales a battery that is made by Bosch. I don't know the specs but it look like a Tesla battery to me. Bosch MM370, maybe someone else can confirm.
http://www.pepboys.com/product/details/9456161/00073?isPayInStoreOnlyStore=false�
Nov 14, 2014
Dchint Am I missing something here? You bought a salvage Tesla instead of a brand new Tesla because you were presumably trying to save a buck...and your pissed off and bad mouthing Tesla because they won't work with you?�
Nov 14, 2014
spaceballs Sounds like your having a hard time seeing it from his view point, most people here can understand.�
Nov 14, 2014
JohnQ I wouldn't jump to conclusions. While monetary savings may have had something to do with it, it sounds like the OP has some experience and enjoys repairing cars. Let's not derail the thread on this topic, there's another one where this was hashed out.�
Nov 14, 2014
abasile Whoa. I'm not picking up any "bad mouthing". He's just telling it like it is. People buy and fix "salvage" vehicles all the time, and there's nothing wrong with saving a buck. I'd personally be happy to buy a "salvaged" Tesla if it were significantly cheaper, in good condition, and I could get it serviced as needed.
When I do buy a Tesla, I expect it will be used, and I'm not bothered by cosmetic damage as the appearance of my cars is not a high priority for me. I just want an EV with lots of range and great Supercharging infrastructure.�
Nov 14, 2014
spaceballs I would focus on this until you figure out if this is the problem or not.�
Nov 14, 2014
Dchint
Theres already been been a similar thread...in any case, I have no problem with someone buying a salvage car and trying to fix it up if they're able. More power to you. And I have no problem with the mental masturbation that occurs afterwards in trying to do so...its what the forums are for....my problem is with the fact that you bad mouth Tesla and acting entitled like someone owes you something....if it's salvage fix it and don't bring Tesla into it....
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You're not picking it up? Fix your radar.
"So about a month ago I purchased a lightly damaged 2013 Model S 60kw with 2600 miles on it and have been trying to make it work again. Tesla will not sell me any parts due to the salvage status of the car, they don't even want me bring it into their service center. Their certified body shop told me that they are not allowed to work on salvage car. Which is a load of BS."
"Tesla is running on a very dangerous line here they gave certified shops a monopoly so they can charge what ever they want and insurance either has to pay or total a car. This should be illegal. Additionally they are going to hurt themselves in the long run. There will be more and more cars that will get into accidents and if insurance will need to total almost every car due to a fender bender, it will jack up the insurance rates or some insurance companies will not even want to insure Teslas."
This is the kind of s**t that usually gets picked up by the ignorant media and causes stocks to fall....�
Nov 14, 2014
wk057 While I don't like it, I'm pretty sure what he says on those lines is pretty accurate with regard to salvages�
Nov 14, 2014
spaceballs So looks like your unable to understand his view on this, I suggest you start another thread topic on what you feel is a problem so this thread doesn't get cluttered.�
Nov 14, 2014
skboston Why would you derail a perfectly good topic with this non-sense Dchint?
The OP is asking for advice and help from other members that might have run into similar issues or have experience repairing cars and you're coming here acting like a child.
There is already a topic about the San Diego owner, go share your negativism over there. I for once and I'm sure many others want to see OP succeed in his project and get the car running.�
Nov 14, 2014
abasile Fear of the media should not generally prevent people from posting their true experiences, whether good or bad. Besides, if Tesla is in the wrong on this issue, which appears to be case, then they will likely be more motivated to rectify the situation if it is apparent that enough people are concerned about it. Ultimately, that will be best for the EV movement.�
Nov 14, 2014
wycolo TM simply cannot devote their best minds and craftspersons to fixing every salvageable car. Suggest that salvageurs assemble info and share their discoveries as they work on Teslas. Look to auctions for their future supply of parts. Operate as completely as possible separate from TM. As drivers seem to crash cars at an increasing rate the future looks good for parts supply.
All this will be possible since apparently TM has not permanently disabled anyone's salvage car so far, or even said they would [correct me if this is not true].
--�
Nov 14, 2014
lolachampcar I think the rub here is that "normal" car companies document their product (service manuals) and diagnostic tools (there is an industry group that dispenses manufacturer test tool interface specifications so companies like AutoLogic can create diagnostic tools for independent service providers). Tesla has yet to do so. Tesla may be side stepping some of the right to repair laws with the over the air updates which remove the issue of "can your local shop re-flash/update that module?" argument.
Sooner or later, Tesla is going to have to come to grips with people working on their own cars. Gas explodes and can kill you just like high voltage. Both activities can be dangerous so that alone does not seem reason enough not to document your product. I'm not sure how long this software/silicon valley mentality is going to fly.
I would like a manual but have accepted that there is not one nor am I likely going to see one anytime soon. I would not buy a salvage for that reason. Now buying one for the reason WK057 bought the battery, now that is a different matter.�
Nov 14, 2014
curt_toolman You can look at this many ways but the fact is we all will see it different. I feel that Tesla should sell parts to hopefully insure that people aren't bypassing important safety features. If the car was built by Tesla and deemed repairable by the insurance company then as long as it is repaired correctly, why should Tesla or any one else care. I just feel that Tesla will have to take some of the responsibility for not supporting vehicles that they built if someone gets seriously hurt. If a car is unrepairable, it should be sold as a parts only car. Well anyways, thats just one point of view. I can see many arguments, I just wonder why most other car companies don't use this model.
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Nov 14, 2014
JST I haven't dug into the question very deeply, but I suspect the right to repair law in MA (and the agreement that the industry adopted that mirrors it) doesn't apply to Tesla because it doesn't have franchised dealers.�
Nov 14, 2014
stopcrazypp That's definitely a big part of it, but the reason may simply be differing priorities in engineering resources (focused on releasing Model X and Model 3) and the fact Tesla has so many ongoing internal revisions in the factory (so such a manual would need to be constantly updated). And until recently, local Tesla service centers don't even service the battery or drive unit (they just swap the whole thing).
And to address some others' points about Tesla inspecting salvage cars, I think it's totally reasonable for Tesla to do that. The new owner may claim that the damage is cosmetic or minor, but without inspecting the car thoroughly, Tesla doesn't know that (likely even the new owner doesn't). And if anything happens after Tesla agrees to work on the car, it's on Tesla.�
Nov 14, 2014
lolachampcar And to add to the need to inspect, something in the car's systems shut down functionality. This leads credence to the idea that there is something more than just cosmetic going on.�
Nov 14, 2014
rlang59 I wonder if the fact the OP charged it without any coolant in the battery damaged something.
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Nov 14, 2014
Gizmotoy Right. I'm 100% for zhur's endevour to get the car back on the road, and think Tesla is overly-heavy-handed with salvage vehicles, but that strikes me as a horrible idea. Even if the rate is slow and the batteries stay cool, who knows what could have happened to the cooling system itself. Dry pumps can burn out and it seems pretty likely the system is designed to verify that it has coolant.
I think it's entirely possible that it WAS working, and suffered from unintentional, owner-inflicted damage that caused it to disable itself.�
Nov 14, 2014
zhur0002 I'm not trying to bad mouth Tesla, I love Tesla and their product. I already sold 3 clean title damage free Tesla's was the first group of people to drive a tesla from Minneapolis to Fremont using the Supercharger network and own their stock. And I think they are the automotive future. Human nature is to love deal's a Tesla may be perfect in everyway but a $30k cheaper Tesla will be better. I'm experimenting and learning with this car so my company could fix and sell salvage tesla's to people. Allowing more people to have a chance of owning this wonderful automobile. Yes, I can go personally buy a new one but that's not the point. My entire company goal is to get more people into affordable EV's, biggest draw back on EV is the purchase cost. People love the idea that they don't have to buy gas they are sold on that idea.
There is no need to have Tesla engineers involved in this they did their job and designed a wonderful car. Any Ranger or service technician should easily be able to inspect the car and see if there are any issues with it. The car itself is very simple!! I just want to purchase parts for my project so it could be fixed without any corners cut. I'm an engineer myself and have a lot more experience with wrecked cars than an engineer designing some components for Tesla. I would love to take my Tesla to SC and have them inspect it after it's fixed. It would give a customer a piece of mind that the car was inspected by Tesla. The problem is Tesla does not want to sell me parts so I could fix it and does not want to inspect it. No I'm not their certified body shop I asked if could become one and they said I could not because they already have enough certified body shops in my area (one that is a large chain) tesla's aluminum is no different than Audi A8 aluminum and we have no problems working on the Audi's.
Anyways, back to my issues connected my ground good. Solenoids closed at the port was able to plug in the charge cord. Car still would not charge port was blinking red still the same error codes. Would turn white for a moment when charge cord was plugged in and turn blue for a moment when unplugged. Screen would read "charging will start momentarily" for about 30 seconds than would say charging stopped. After closing and opening my port shutting the car on and off a few times. Solenoids would not close anywhere and the car was at the same state as it was when ground was not tight. I had no cabin heat at anytime even when my port solenoids were functioning.
I'm thinking that Hella sensor part # 173 949 00 the negative terminal of the battery is bad. I will see if my Mercedes has a similar sensor. When I pushed down on it at first it was closing the solenoids and it does have some plastic melted on it. I think that is the switch which was mentioned earlier in the thread in the frunk and was replaced under warranty for someone. And had the same errors as me.
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I have antifreeze in car now and can hear fluid move around so the pumps are fine I don't think they can get hurt by running dry. Battery will not overheat charging at 12amps at that rate it would it would take 2.5 days to fully charge the battery!�
Nov 14, 2014
zhur0002 Found a kit just need the switch: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hella-IBScontrol-Batterie-Management-System-fur-Wohnmobile-Wohnwagen-Boote-/261659799417?pt=DE_Autoteile&hash=item3cec23af79�
Nov 14, 2014
sparc Is it possible you spoke with the wrong person at Tesla?
There was a news story recently about Tesla wanting to do an inspection on a salvage vehicle. That article even posted the Tesla release form.
Article: Buying A Crashed Tesla Model S: Damage, Risk, Safety, Salvage, And Reporting
Liability Release Form: http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1305093/tesla-salvage-release.pdf
Good luck and I hope you get it working. I think Tesla is doing themselves a disservice by making this process so difficult on a car that seems repairable. This issue is only going to get more common as they crank out more of these cars in volume. Sounds like it will effect insurance rates if tons of vehicles just start getting written off as total losses with even modest damage.�
Nov 14, 2014
FreeOfPge Whoa, hold on a second. Before you change more parts on the car, I had this exact same thing happen to me. My car is not salvaged, nor did I have the other error messages, but I did have the "charging will start momentarily" for 30 sec, "charging stopped" messages AND the white then blue lights. Long-story-made-short, the switches inside the HPWC were set to the wrong amperages (for the breaker at the panel). I set the switches to their correct positions, then reset the HPWC and the problem was solved.
This may be a long shot; but have you tried charging with a different charge cord? 110v maybe? You could have a charging problem - or perhaps damage to electrical in the car is causing the system to detect a problem with the wall connector. Anyway, like I said this might be a long shot, but I've personally experienced this situation and figured it's worth passing along the information.
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BTW, YES, do have the car inspected by Tesla before you sell it to someone else! Please! You don't want to be sued if the new owner's house burns down because of an undetected problem, and they don't want their house to burn down or their families lives put in danger by an otherwise avoidable situation.�
Nov 14, 2014
spaceballs Agreed battery would be fine. btw water pump on the Roadster will say Over-current if there is no fluid present... so if they have current detection in the roadster, I think they would have the same thing in the MS. Also regarding my water pump, today was the first time I've ever seen the water heater system kick on when charging the roadster! (been cold here in Washington of late.)
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At the moment I don't think Tesla service center will sign off on a salvage car regardless of how good condition it's in.�
Nov 14, 2014
drees I would be worried about the charger itself - the one(s) under the rear seat. They are liquid cooled - you don't want to charge unless they are getting fluid as they will easily overheat. Not sure if they're the same coolant loop or if there are multiple, though.�
Nov 15, 2014
sparc Hey zhur0002, take a look at post 57 with those links I included and see if that's helpful. That liability release form seems like Tesla already has some sort of policy for inspecting vehicles. Maybe it's a matter of contacting the right person at Tesla as I can't see them contracting a very public statement they made to the media. Here was an official statement from someone at Tesla saying they would inspect that vehicle:
�
Nov 15, 2014
zhur0002 I followed that story it broke out about a week after I bought my car. First thing I did when I received my car is call tesla parts and asked if I could order some parts they asked for the vin#, I gave them the vin# they told me that this is a dead car and they will not sell any parts. I asked what I needed to do they said I need to contact their certified body shop and they should be able to fix it. Certified body shop said sure we will fix it but we want to do the entire fix, understandable I would do the same if someone came to my shop. Than 2 days later the GM calls me from the certified body shop and tells me that Tesla does not give him permission to work on a salvage car (I think someone very high up at Tesla does not understand the difference between salvage and a junk car). I was not very excited about the certified body shop doing all the work anyways I have seen quality of their work and we can do better additionally it would cost a lot more.
I have the original estimate the one that determined the car's title status so I know how much parts from tesla would cost and how much the certified body shop was charging for their services. The total estimate was for $49k, I should note there was no battery damage or any HV system damage in the estimate. Where $23k was the parts cost. Part cost is justifiable they wanted to replace every single part that had a mark on it. It is almost a new car so if I was the original owner I would want the same thing. Now at this point of the game on a repairable car, you don't buy a new headlamp if it has a tab broken you repair the tab, you use used parts also. To make long story short I have acquired about 99% of needed parts for about $4k even if Tesla all the sudden would allow me to buy new parts directly from them it would cost me another $3k to get remainder of the parts. Granted I do have a lot of time into sourcing the parts.
At this point you might be interested where the other $26k came from. This is the monopoly effect. There is 104 hours of advanced tech labor on the estimate. Now remember there is no HV system damage on the car the bat never even needed to be removed from the car! Just to disassemble the car and to see the depth of the damage insurance company got charged $4755! I would have my dismantler disassemble a project like that in about 4 hours I pay him $17 n hour. You get the picture.
My goal is to fix the car myself and show up at the SC with the signed waiver and the car and see what they tell me. Like I said, I know what exactly my car needs and do not need Tesla SC telling me what I already know and sending me to their certified repair facility where they would stick it to me.�
Nov 15, 2014
qwk In the beginning, you had an HV box issue, but now it seems that by mucking with stuff(without really knowing what you are doing), it's deeper than that. I would start with checking ALL of the fuses first(including the ones in the HV junction box). If everything checks out fine, then the next step would be replacing the HV junction box.
You also mentioned a melted battery connector? Post a pic of it, so we could see what it is you are looking at, because that is definately not normal.�
Nov 15, 2014
kennybobby That's why i suggested removing the 3G card--once they put that vin on the disabled list it will turn the car off when it next talks to it. So when the 12 volt battery was fixed and powered up the system, it turned on the 3G and allowed them to send the disable charging command which turns it into a dead car. The charger, like almost everything else on the car, is on the CAN bus, and it has internal relays to control powering up the logic board and will only charge when commanded over CAN.
i don't think you damaged anything, there is plenty of heatsink aluminum in the charger for the FETs and diodes to handle 1400 watts, plus there is a thermistor on the FETs that would shut the charger off if the temperature got too high. i have repaired several EV 1.5kW chargers and all were damaged by high internal temperature events.�
Nov 15, 2014
zhur0002 Checked my HV box yesterday all the fuses seemed to be good. First thing I did when I first got the car is to check all the other fuses, usually the first step when you are rebuilding the car. Here are the photos:
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Nov 15, 2014
spaceballs I'm still trying to find confirmation on this, do you mean Tesla is remotely disabling the car from driving under it's own power if put into that list? Or is it just to prevent the car from super charging from working?�
Nov 15, 2014
zhur0002 last picture is from when car was working 2 days ago.
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San Diego man seems to think that, the one who had the news story. I would think tesla could turn the car off remotely if needed to be. I do not know if they would actually do it for legal reasons. Strechla project has no trouble driving his car and was also able to supercharge. I think my problems lies in the 12v system. I will try to get a new 12v battery here soon and see what will happen, no reason to point fingers at Tesla yet until everything is 100% in order.�
Nov 15, 2014
spaceballs looking at the sensor you posted.
Looks like it could communicate with this display, that be one way to test if the sensor is still good or not.
You might be able to get details info from the manufacture of the sensor. Battery Sensors | HELLA�
Nov 15, 2014
kennybobby oh now i see you were charging at 235v with 30 Amps, that is 7kW--probably too much for a 10kW charger without the cooling working.
The strechla is parked out in his pasture now and he did not supercharge after getting the written notice about no more parts would be sold to him. And i'll bet his car has the 3G card removed.�
Nov 15, 2014
spaceballs If these systems are anything like the roadster it has at minimum 2 temp sensors to prevent it self from overheating. My guess the charger electronics are unharmed.�
Nov 15, 2014
zhur0002 Just for a few minutes. Than switched to 12a 120v and went home leaving the car to charge.
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Good link spaceballs, maybe I can just by the sensor would probably be cheaper than the display to test the sensor: http://www.my-caravanning.com/en/products/energy-systems/battery-controller/WAECO-PerfectCharge-Accessories/65521
Unfortunately they are in England, would be longtime before I get the display or the sensor.�
Nov 15, 2014
qwk The pic you posted is of the 12V battery terminal. Nothing really looks like it melted to me. I thought you were talking about the HV negative battery terminal.
So, with the 12V battery connected, do you hear the battery contactor close when you open the doors? It should be two clicks.�
Nov 15, 2014
zhur0002 The black plastic where it touches the cooper is melted. When 12v was connected yesterday it would close solenoids in the back area of the car I'm thinking around the charge port or under back seat the DC DC charger did not close the solenoids. Unless I pushed on that sensor and wiggled it around I would get the second click for a second and than it would click open again.
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I never closed my doors I leave them open got tired of not being able to open them easily from outside�
Nov 15, 2014
qwk The doors(and most other things), only need 12V power to operate. Even with a low 12V battery, as long as you have a good battery charger connected to the battery posts behind the nosecone, most things should operate fine. You need 12V power to the car to diagnose this stuff.
It sounds like you have high voltage at the HV junction box, what about the DC/DC?�
Nov 15, 2014
spaceballs You could always call/email to do DHL, take like 4-5 days.
btw if you look at data brief it says "Galvanic isolated LIN communication and supply interface" so it talks over via LIN, you could grab a scope and power supply and see if it tries to start to communicate.�
Nov 15, 2014
zhur0002 Where would I check the HV on the DC/DC? I assume I do not have it there because there is no click. No wires are damaged on my car. Would a bad connection to the main bat pack cause my problems? I know when I first put the HV battery back up into the car my right spring connection was bad I wiggled it and it clicked in place. My car did sit outside for the most of the last 9mo and all the fuses above the 12V battery would get wet every time it rained along with that Hella IBS sensor. My gut feeling is that its the IBS sensor functioning intermediately and sending false data to the car, and the car not powering up the HV system due to the sensor's input.�
Nov 15, 2014
qwk It sounds like repairing this vehicle is quite a bit out of your knowledge zone. I would hate to have you kill yourself(DC HV will kill you on the spot), trying to save a few bucks. Please have someone with extensive electrical experience help you with this.
Anyway, here is a pic of the DC/DC converter used on the Model S.
�
Nov 15, 2014
spaceballs What do you mean spring connection? got photo?
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I have to agree, I would leave DC/DC alone focus on areas your comfortable/safe in, bring in someone who can handle the HV for you.�
Nov 15, 2014
zhur0002 Yes, I know that is the DC/DC converter located behind the pass wheel on model s, this is my first repairable Tesla. I know that the orange wires are the HV wires. I always have the 12V disconnected when I work on EV or a Hybrid to keep myself and the shop safe, as should anyone. I do a continuity test on all HV wires if there is no continuity I replace wire if there is I replace unit. I'm not going to be probing the HV system with the 12V hooked up too many unknowns and too many risks. Unfortunately I do not have the luxury on replacing Tesla components. I do not know at which wire to check the HV I never took Tesla DC/DC converter apart and have no idea how this particular one works there are also no wiring diagrams for it. The only thing I'm armed with is a voltmeter. It's not about saving a few bucks I would love to take the car to tesla and have them scan it with their scanner and tell me exactly what is wrong its just not an option.
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Will the cabin heater only have power when heat is turned on or the bat heater will have power when it calls for heat? Those things I do not know.
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I called the connection to the main battery a spring connection. As the battery gets pushed up into the car it compresses the spring on the main battery connections that is how they are kept in place, so when you take the battery down there are no clips to compress. What keeps the battery plugged in are the pressure from the spring. I took a picture but it is not very good when I had my battery down.
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Actually I bet if I had power in the Cabin heater HV wire my heat would work, so there is no power at those connections.�
Nov 15, 2014
kennybobby That sensor is a shunt to measure the 12V battery current. There should be no continuity between the rivet thru the black plastic and the copper bar, and there should be continuity between the ends of the copper bar (very low resistance).�
Nov 15, 2014
qwk This is the problem. Without a Tesla laptop, or access to the diagnostic menu, this is the only alternative. That is why I mentioned sourcing outside help.
First and foremost you need to be 100% sure that either the 12V battery is up to snuff, or be 100% sure that you get enough power to close the main battery contactors.
Then you need to find out whether or not there is HV at the junction box. If the heater or AC work, then you have HV at both the DC/DC convereter and the HV junction box. If they don't, you need to find out why by using a voltmeter in the correct areas.
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I really doubt that this is his problem. That sensor alone probably won't render the car undrivable.�
Nov 15, 2014
zhur0002 Qwk I agree with you 100%. I need to get 12V system 100%. I bought a bosch urt1 battery from pepboys today that I will adapt so it will work in the model S. I will be posting the adaptation process on Monday.
If the car senses any fault in the 12v system it will not turn on the HV system. A simple open in a pyro fuse will disable the car completely but all the 12V systems will still function.
Kennybobby, I have continuity everywhere on that sensor with negligible resistance. The only large resistance that I got is at the 2 terminals inside the plug that resistance is aprox. 5.35 M ohms.�
Nov 18, 2014
Sogorman
Any luck bringing life to the 12V system?�
Nov 22, 2014
zhur0002 Put a new 12V battery in. Still the same messages and contactors stay open: Car may not restart, 12V battery low, Car needs service. So I need to get my hands on a new IBS sensor. From what I have learned on here it causes those error's.�
Nov 29, 2014
CJS2 What is an IBS sensor? I am having these very same problems with my Salvage Tesla that I drove for 14,000 miles after I purchased it from a restorer since it had minor problems. Now I have the dreaded 12V problems.�
Dec 2, 2014
zhur0002 IBS sensor is attached to negative terminal post of the 12v bat. I had some pictures of it earlier in thread. I have just replaced mine no luck. I really think that my car has been disabled by tesla, now 12v system is 100%... None of my error messages say "contact tesla" my 3g stopped working and will not load anything, maps stopped working. I'm going to try one more thing, drop the HV battery again and make sure all the connections are good, I did have moisture between the bat pack and the car before because the insurance company did not put the battery all the way up after they disconnected it. Water was leaking through the frunk on top of the battery hump and flowing off the hump between car and battery pack. Does anyone know a good EV mechanic around the mid-west? Otherwise my only solution on this car is to finish up with the body work, print off Tesla salvage form and beg Tesla to take a look at it.(They told me that they do not want to see the car earlier in the process). Any help would be greatly appreciated.
CJS2 did your car go through a Tesla inspection? Are you able to buy parts for your car? Does your 3g work or has the sim card been taken out?�
Dec 2, 2014
Sogorman sorry to hear that @zhur0002, Sounds like maybe the worst case has indeed happened. If you end up having tesla look over the vehicle it will be interesting to see what they 'fix'�
Dec 3, 2014
glhs272 I think it would be interesting to see if Tesla WILL work on it!�
Dec 4, 2014
zhur0002 I hope they will. I have the original estimate from the insurance company showing that there was no battery or any HV component damage on the car. It is just wrong on so many levels that Tesla can take my running car and disable it without my permission and the only way I can have a running car is to pay them $ (if they even decide to work on it). I understand the reasoning, they do not want to have negative media if something would happen to a car that was not properly fixed. Additionally, you need to pay a lot of $ to acquire a crashed model S, so if parts are readily available why would you not fix it properly? Its the certified shop's labor that makes the cost unbearable.
Why not just put a restriction on selling HV components? That way if you have a lightly damaged car you can fix it yourself and a major damaged car will need Tesla's assistance.
What my plan is now:
Is to take battery down one more time check bat connections
Get remainder of parts that I need
Complete body work
Take it to Tesla to inspect�
Dec 9, 2014
Scotty While I am a relatively new owner of a MS, and don't have any experience working on it, I have quite a few years working on high voltage, high current electric vehicles. (Ok, not as high a voltage, and not as high currents as the Tesla).
I don't think that Tesla really anticipated this issue of Salvage Title Tesla's showing up in the mainstream, and for this topic to bubble to the surface, like it has. I also expect that Tesla is finding their way on salvage repairs, much as they worked their way through the drive train problems that ultimately lead EM to impose an 8 year, unlimited mileage warranty to the motor and controller, in addition to the existing same duration warranty on the battery pack.
I also have seen a couple of problems regarding the 12 Volt low error (but not in my MS). I am reminded of a Ford Technical Service Bulletin that basically says that after you replace everything else without success, you need to replace the wiring harness. I think the error messages are very vague, in particular to the MS owner / operator. However, The Service Center technician will connect up their specific diagnostics equipment and let it do the more detailed and specific troubleshooting. Electronics failures have been moving away from component level repairs and towards major assembly replacement for decades, and that's a very lengthy discussion in itself. However, a technician at a service center doesn't need to know the reason for the particular component(s)failure, as long as they can pinpoiunt the assembly that needs to be replaced. Now, unfortunately, the resources available at a Tesla Service Center, or at the factory, are not available, outside the network. The reason I bring this up is that Bjorn Nylund recently had an issue with his famous P85 (Millennium Falcon)which turned out to require the battery pack assembly replacement due to a faulty contactor inside the battery pack. Tesla replaced his 'B' revision battery pack with a 'D' revision pack, which also meant the contactor (which is insde the pack) was replaced, and under warranty.
I don't know what type of contactor is in the Tesla, but in the 2002 Ford Think that I specialize in, the contactor connects the high voltage, high current battery pack to the motor controller. If the contactor fails to operate properly, a wrench symbol is displayed on the instrument cluster LCD display, and the Think will not move. It's also important to note that this also serves an important safety function; if the motor controller sees a fault, it will open the controller, and display the wrench. I would expect that the contactor in the Tesla is probably a 12 Volt one, and if the 12 volt battery isn't working, neither is the car. Maybe the battery, maybe the contactor, maybe the vehicle is seeing a fault; I didn't see that you posted which revision of battery pack you have in this car, but several points arise (at least to me).
'If you have a 'B' pack, you might have an internal contactor problem. In addition, if your MS was even slightly impacted, it may be suffering from an impact or percussive failure of the contactor. As I recall, Bjorn showed his error messages in his video.... might be prudent to see if it closely resembles what you are seeing. He also stated that they remotely diagnosed it, and said it had to go back to the Service Center. Obviously, their remote access to the onboard diagnostics told them they had a contactor problem, and it was not going to be fixed there at the side of the road. Now, I also would expect that Tesla is NOT remotely looking at your vehicle to see what their systems are telling them is the problem. I would expect that Tesla is continuing to formulate their salvage vehicle policy, but are probably NOT wanting to call you saying that you have an issue that they are seeing, and then trying to extricate themselves if there could be more negative publicity or pressure from outside.
The last thought I have is that success for you and your salvage Ms will be directly related to it being a success for Tesla. Don't know if publicity would be what they seek, but negative publicity is generally only sought after by washed up celebrities that truly saying no publicity is worse than negative publicity. It might be a PR coup to be able to report that Tesla vehicles not have a superior rating in every facet of crash testing, but also in repair and return to operating condition of a properly repaired or rebuilt MS. Once your MS repairs are completed, it would be in everyones interest in having it inspected, approved, and back on the road. I'm sure that Tesla realizes that it's not in their best interests to have a BMW or MBZ repaired properly and back on the road, and yet a Tesla MS can't meet the same standard.
I have not looked under the 'hood' of my MS. I think that Tesla needs to get with the industry as far as dealing with Salvage titled vehicles. In California, to get a salvage title relicensed and registered for public use is a bit of a joke. It needs to be inspected and cleared by the California Highway Patrol, which basically inspects the lights, horns, and brakes for proper operation. This in no way verifies that any frame damage was repaired to any industry certified standard. I don;t know whether I feel I should applaud Tesla for wanting to ensure that the vehicle is repaired to their designated standard, or whether they are just reacting to try to keep a repaired or rebuilt Tesla off the road, (and possibly out of the news). When a Mercedes or BMW is repaired, the manufacturer does not have the final say on whether it meets 'their' standards'; why, one might even surmise that a repaired or rebuilt MBZ or BMW might never meet their standards.... 'we'll be happy to sell you a new one... maybe also a lingering question about loved ones and salvage titles".
I think that Tesla is evolving their approach. I think it's reasonable for Tesla to inspect the vehicle after repair or rebuilding, since I think there's 2 important benefits. The first is that the high performance car will continue to function properly and safely in it's continued function as a high performace car. Secondly, though, I'd be very surprised if Tesla didn't expend a few hours with their design staff and examine whether there are any deficiencies that might be resolved in future production. I know, I would, if I was in this situation and had the opportunity.
I also like to say I appreciate the postings on this thread. It's amazing what Tesla has done, and what can be accomplished by working with the public (whether it be their shareholders, owners, future owners, and even the naysayers).
Model S85 Owner, 3 months and 8600 miles�
Jan 22, 2015
zhur0002 Car is alive! So here is what happened, had moisture between battery and body. Battery was not tight up against the body and frunk was dis-assembled when car sat at auction so every time it rained water got between the bat and body. When car worked the first time about a month ago right after I connected the battery up I wiped all visible water, but I bet it still had a moisture build up which set a sensor off and disabled my car.
I was out of the country for a month while the car sat in nice heated garage all the moisture dried up and I have a functional models s! My 3g did get shut off so my navigation does not work anymore. Here is what the car looks now, still trying to find some airbags and a few trim pieces that were lost when car was taken apart by insurance shop.
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I apologize for accusing tesla on shutting the car off.�
Jan 22, 2015
tdiggity Cool! Does the nav work when using your phones Internet?
Hm..on second thought, I bet it gets gps position from the 3G chip that's disabled.�
Jan 22, 2015
zhur0002 have not tried yet. Need to get seatbelts before I worry too much about navi :wink:�
Jan 22, 2015
CurtGentry What a great outcome to a very interesting thread! Congratulations!
I wonder if it would be possible to buy a 3G chip for a laptop and replace the current chip?�
Jan 22, 2015
Kalud Or get a LTE Wifi hotspot.
Great outcome, congrats !�
Jan 22, 2015
Gizmotoy Well, to be fair, they did shut *something* off. :wink:
Glad it's up and running for you.�
Jan 22, 2015
rlang59 I wouldn't say they shut anything on the car "off", more likely they just canceled the data contract.�
Jan 22, 2015
breser That makes no sense to me. GPS and 3G shouldn't be connected in anyway. Even if it happened to be provided by the same chip the 3G chip isn't disabled, just the data service from the Telco provider. I suspect navigation works fine if he tethers the car to another device. Data service on the car could probably be restored by replacing the SIM (though it'd probably need to be the same provider since there's no way to really configure the APN on the car).�
Jan 22, 2015
swegman Shouldn't Tesla reactivate the 3G once he gets the repairs all completed and has Tesla review and "sign off" on the repairs?�
Jan 22, 2015
flankspeed8 great work and perseverance. Would this car be blacklisted from Super Charging?�
Jan 22, 2015
Gizmotoy I'd be a little bit surprised if Tesla themselves didn't want the connection active either way. Based on their stance on the safety of salvage vehicles, I'd think they'd be interested in keeping a close eye on the vehicle for signs of a dangerous situation. They may be of the position that it's not their problem, but having some computer monitoring warning metrics is dead cheap and could protect their brand. I can see why they'd cancel it if they thought the car was destroyed, but if they find out it's back on the road...�
Jan 25, 2015
zhur0002 The navigation does work car knows where it is. Its just that none of my maps load up its just a blank gray screen where all the roads need to be. The first time I charged before the car shut itself off, it left a flag in that spot so now when I drive away flag moves away. I wan to complete all repairs and take it to inspection to them, hopefully it will reactive the 3g(even if I have to pay something for it monthly like onstar). Plus it would be nice to get updates on the car, unique part of tesla's ownership.
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Car originally did not have supercharging capability. If I pass inspection and pay them supercharging initiation cost I don't know why they would blacklist it. I will find out soon enough.
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If car is connected to Wi-Fi everything works on it. The car uses 3g to update the navigation map, traffic etc.�
Feb 13, 2015
CJS2 I will pretty much guarantee that your supercharging has been turned off. I drove my restored salvage 14,000 miles on superchargers after I paid tesla for a yearly inspection right after I purchased the restored salvage car where I have documented that they blessed the car. Now due to new policy they think my car is junk after they already inspected it, and have turned off my car and, I believe, now forced the car to throw errors at me to get me to pay the new $1200 inspection fee and pay for repairs that they have cooked up. The reason I say this is I messed with rebooting the computers and drove it for an hour to the nearest supercharger and tried to charge, which now it will not do. It then threw codes at me and I had to limp home. Now it will not start. So a perfectly working car for 14,000 miles past original inspection is now not driveable? The 800 number tesla guys say all I need is a software upgrade which the service center will not do unless I pay them $1200 and give them the rights to permanently shut off my car with no recourse and sign all my rights away. I own another tesla so I love the car and now hate the company. I also own a Nissan leaf that was a restore salvage and nissan begs me to service the car and will sell me any part I want. I have serviced my own airplanes which are a hell of a lot more dangerous, and love working with mechanical things. Tesla is being completely ridiculous in this regard.�
Feb 13, 2015
qwk For some reason Tesla thinks they have a right to do anything they want with the car after they sell it, without the owners permission. This is something that is plain ridiculous. It's going to only bite them in the behind. It's bizarre that Tesla has to learn every single thing the hard way.�
Feb 13, 2015
wk057 Sounds like we all need to move to MA where the right-to-repair stuff is in effect and force them to release whatever is needed to do these things... and then move back to wherever.�
Feb 13, 2015
Gizmotoy They're essentially applying the software model to vehicles. I can see where that's attractive to them, but they're fundamentally different products, and I agree that eventually they're going to get sued over it.
It's strange that CJS2's car was inspected, and now needs another $1200 inspection. Is that the out-of-warranty general diagnostic fee? If so, :scared:. If it was already inspected and passed, it should be treated like any other out-of-warranty vehicle, IMO.�
Feb 13, 2015
wk057 Some of the issues brought up in this thread and others regarding salvage vehicles are exactly the reason I decided to not buy and repair a salvage Model S as a project car. When software became an issue disabling the car, I'd eventually just start replacing everything on the car that is needed to make thing thing move with non-Tesla equivalents, starting with the BMS and inverter control. Once that was done there would be nothing Tesla could do to stop me from driving the car since I would be controlling the inverter/motor and battery with my own software/hardware. Probably wouldn't be quite as safe, but hey, if they want to be a******s about it then oh well. Now they'd have a Model S on the road running 3rd party drive unit software that is certainly not up to their standards. When I finally wrecked the thing in a huge fiery ball of overtaxed lithium ion battery meltdown explosion since my hacked-together hardware/software didn't quite do things safely, and it ends up on the 6-o'clock national news... maybe that's what it'd take for them to stop being stupid about selling parts and performing service on these vehicles.
Granted, the time, effort, and money needed to actually accomplish this would likely be higher than it would be to just buy the car new and not worry about it. So, by the time I felt like taking on such a project (years down the road when a salvage can be got for say, $15-20k) I feel like Tesla will have sorted out this salvage title car issue.�
Feb 13, 2015
CJS2 I am honestly thinking of starting a kickstarter project to completely reverse engineer the car creating repair manuals, and convert the OS to android and other open source software so that others will not suffer the same problems as we salvage owners, and future non warranty cars WILL have. I believe turning off a feature such as supercharging after my car was inspected and had 14,000 miles of supercharging post salvage is a violation of just about every doctrine of business I can think of. Plus it was on the original purchase papers as an option to the car. Can you imagine GM telling you you must return all options of your car the moment it becomes salvage. Yes return your V8 please, and the tires you purchased because now you are salvage. The arrogance of the company is ridiculous.�
Feb 13, 2015
wk057 I would definitely back this if the management was competent and capable of the task. I think too few are actually capable though, honestly, of doing this and making it comparable to the stock software/hardware.�
Feb 13, 2015
yobigd20 I like this idea. Wish I could help (as I am a software engineer) but don't know how it's possible without direct access to the systems. There are definitely more qualified people than me for hacking embedded systems like this though.
I don't see how what they did is legal. Maybe you could find a lawyer to nab them on something like hacking or vandalism?�
Feb 13, 2015
HankLloydRight Yes.. The bad PR generated from such a lawsuit would be 1000x more damaging to Tesla than just working with salvage owners to make these cars drivable again.
This business policy is baffling, in that clearly Tesla can't see the bigger picture.
EDIT: And just think of the field day the Dealers Associations would have with this, rightfully so!!�
Feb 13, 2015
yobigd20 Actually extortion might work. I think you have enough legit evidence for that.�
Feb 13, 2015
bonnie So unless I missed something in the thread, this car never had supercharging capability. Tesla never turned it off. It never had it.
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No. I don't think he does. What would be the extortion claim?
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And congrats to the OP on getting the car working.�
Feb 13, 2015
JST There are two different cars being discussed here. I think you're right that OP's car didn't have it, but I see nothing in the description of CJS2's car that suggests that.�
Feb 13, 2015
bonnie Ahhh, you're right. Thanks for the correction.�
Feb 13, 2015
wk057 Well... as for Supercharging, IMO Tesla needs to partition the car and station portions of this option. I personally think Tesla should certainly be able to limit who can use the supercharger network.
Imagine the case of some damaged Model S with shoddy repairs to the DCHV system using a supercharger and damaging the supercharger itself in some way. That person should be responsible for those damages, but we all know how that would go. IMO the car should definitely have to pass some testing and inspection for access to the supercharger network. As someone who depends on it for long distance travel, the last thing I want is someone with a busted Model S breaking every stall at a site somehow before I get there.
The option for DC charging, however, shouldn't be disabled if the car had it for things like the CHAdeMO adapter and future adapters. The Tesla owned and operated network of charging stations, on the other hand, are not, IMO, the option listed on the window sticker for "Supercharging Enabled" (or whatever it says). So if Tesla says you can't use the network, well, you can't use the network. It is their network after all.
Tesla also should have zero obligation to enable it if it wasn't enabled prior and I think this is perfectly fine.
As far as totally refusing to help fix a car or requiring an inspection before it can be "activated" after 3rd party repairs... that nonsense needs to stop.
Honestly, however, I highly doubt Tesla is remotely "breaking" salvage cars. In the case of CJS2, More likely there is something actually wrong with the car that needs to be repaired. The fact that it happened while trying to supercharge or shortly after probably just caused or exposed the issue.�
Feb 13, 2015
CJS2 My vehicle is an 85 which Musk has said numerous times charging on superchargers is "for free for life"! There were no qualifications on this statement. I agree that cars should be checked for their fitness, which I did by bringing the car to them for an immediate yearly service interval even though the car at that time had 3,000 miles.
My vehicle was inspected by a service center and blessed to go on my cross country escapade and I told the service center before inspection that I was departing on a cross country trip, I subsequently went 14,000 miles on superchargers.
i received the dreaded 12V fault like hundreds and hundreds of other cars. This error is a manufacturing defect. It is bad engineering and ridiculous to require a massive disassembly of the car to access the 12v battery that runs everything but the drivetrain. I charged the 12v battery. I removed it, went to two separate places to evaluate the battery and they find it perfectly fine. The dc-dc converter checks out too. I give up on the car, and after some months, the car magically resets all its errors.
i start driving it again, and then bam, tesla pulls 3G access so I have no console maps, and at the same time they pull my supercharger access. Thanks tesla, you pulled supercharging from a car that was inspected. Now they want another inspection for $1200 and they will not tell me the criterion for inspection. They also say that if the car is not brought up to their specs, they will not allow any service to be performed on the car - ever. They won't publsh the specs, so I have no way to comply with this arbitrary and capricious request. I am totally mystified why anyone should be treated this way. Even though I bought a restored salvage car, I am still a customer. Tesla can choose if I am a happy customer or not. They choose to treat salvage cars and their owners as pariah and not worth any help or assistance,
I am also a second customer. That I guess is not a pariah. The other tesla 85 that I own has a warranty. This car I purchased used but warranty intact. This car has had its drivetrain replaced 3 times, it's 12v battery replaced. The high voltage battery replaced. Numerous other problems with the car, which thank goodness, were covered by warranty. I worry about this car and everyone else's'car post warranty period. As they certainly do have a monopoly on their parts and service centers.�
Feb 14, 2015
wk057 Tesla's stance on salvage vehicles definitely needs work, no doubt about it.
As for superchargers being "free for life," unfortunately regardless of what Elon Musk has said, this particular line item is not in any of my paperwork after three Model S purchases. No where in any of my documentation, purchase agreements, order confirmations, etc does it say anything about superchargers being free for life and/or accessible forever or anything else along those lines. The purchase agreement specifically excludes any verbal promises, if I recall correctly, also. There is also no mention of 3G, free or otherwise, in any of the legal paperwork. Do I believe they'll go back on that particular feature? Probably not, would be horrible PR. Do I believe they're eventually going to start charging for 3G? Yep.
The only thing about supercharging in the documentation is an item that says "Supercharging" and a line that says "Supercharging enabled." This, to me, just means that the hardware in the car is unlocked and able to do DC charging.
As for 3G, it makes perfect sense for Tesla to cut off 3G access to a car that has been reported as a total loss. Why keep paying for service for a car that is in a junk yard?
Supercharger network access probably just disappears along with it. As I said before, I wouldn't want someone with a crappily repaired S breaking superchargers.
It is pretty much implied with any salvage situation that you're kind of on your own. The car was deemed a total loss for a reason.
I do believe Tesla needs to open up service documentation and diagnostic tools to 3rd parties, but I don't believe that they should indefinitely provide ongoing support for things like 3G and supercharging for vehicles not serviced and inspected by them on a regular basis.
Honestly, I think the $1200 inspection is more than reasonable, especially if it allows access to the supercharger network after passing. Even if it were a $1200 yearly inspection, that'd still be reasonable, IMO, to permit a salvage vehicle access to the infrastructure.�
Feb 14, 2015
Brass Guy Yes, but I've seen too many on eBay that the reason is probably cosmetic. Insurance companies decide if a car is a total loss, it's not necessarily dependant on its road worthiness.
I must disagree. This implies that after my warranty is over, I should be paying Tesla to regularly service my car in order to continue using 3G or the supercharger network. That's not free supercharging.
Aw hell no! First of all, no inspection should cost that much. Due to the complexity of the vehicle, I could see maybe $200-$300. If I had to bring a VW a dealer for an inspection, I'd be pretty upset with a $100 tab. Actually, I'd be upset to have to bring it to them at all.
No way an annual inspection by the manufacturer, especially at the rate you suggest. Once a car`s vital systems have been given an ok, there's no reason to suspect that would change prior another major accident.�
Feb 14, 2015
schonelucht According to Tesla, the car is simpler and easier to maintain than a comparable ICE car. How then is $1200 in any shape of form a reasonable price for a yearly 'inspection'?�
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