Feb 14, 2015
wk057 You're free to disagree. I think the overall health of the network is the most important and would definitely require that the cars utilizing it be given periodic checkups. I'll say again, no where in any of my paperwork do I see anything about the supercharger network at all, let alone it being free forever with no caveats. My car is supercharging/DC charging capable per the paperwork. That doesn't say that access to the Tesla-owned-and-operated supercharger network is free forever without anything required.
Granted, I think this will be the case for most. But I'm all for Tesla being strict on enforcement of who and what cars are allowed to use the network, especially when it comes to salvage/total loss repairs.
At that point it would be more of a fee for continued use of the supercharger network for which they're not obligated to support for the salvage vehicle, as well as the on-board 3G service for the year. $1200/yr for fuel and unlimited 3G? The unlimited 3G alone is virtually nonexistent elsewhere and even limited data hotspot plans cost at least ~$500/yr.
I'm not saying they're going to actually do this, but I think in the case of salvage vehicles it wouldn't be unwarranted and you can't expect them to continue to provide these service for free indefinitely.
Edit: As an owner of two in-warranty vehicles, I'm not even expecting free 3G forever, or even while still under warranty. I believe Tesla will hold up the free supercharging stance at least for non-salvage Model S and Model X. I doubt it will be free for Model 3, however, and it wouldn't surprise me if eventually it were not free for Model S/X either (say 10-15 years from now).�
Feb 14, 2015
rlang59 Tesla has stated that 3G will be free for the first four years of ownership, so I wouldn't count on it being free past then. The also started the clock on January 1 2014 for anyone that was an owner before then.�
Feb 14, 2015
wk057 Yeah, this isn't documented anywhere in any paperwork I have either, so, guess we'll see how it goes in ~4 years.�
Feb 14, 2015
Gizmotoy Which SC are you dealing with? Can you just visit another one? To me, this sounds a lot like a cranky SC. If not, I think you should politely write to Jerome or one of his direct reports. PM me if you need more info.
The reason I say that is because the car was already inspected once. It is surprising and, IMO, unreasonable to require a follow-up inspection after they've already blessed the vehicle. Your car should be treated like any other out-of-warranty vehicle (salvage titles from all manufacturers that I'm aware of automatically void the warranty). Your original inspection paperwork should negate the need for ongoing inspections.�
Feb 14, 2015
Andyw2100 I'm not making any comment on how this applies to salvage vehicles. But with respect to regular Model S vehicles, I think we are safe to expect free supercharging for life, even though it may not be in the purchase agreement. As discussed in other threads, every detail of the car can't be in the purchase agreement. We rely on what Tesla publishes on their website to supplement the purchase agreement. In this case, on this subject, we have a pretty clear promise of free supercharging for life, as seen here:
Supercharging | Tesla Motors
How much does it cost to use the Supercharger?
Supercharging is free for the life of Model S, once the Supercharger option is enabled.
Why is it free?
We want to encourage Model S owners to take road trips.
Will it always be free?
Yes, Superchargers will be free to use for Supercharging-enabled vehicles for the life of Model S.
Again, I am not trying to say that this should apply to a salvage vehicle. I'm just saying that for regular, non-salvage vehicles, the fact that there is nothing in the purchase agreement about it does not worry me.�
Feb 14, 2015
JRP3 You might contact Jack Rickard of EVTV.me. He and others have had luck using their GEVCU to gain control of the Siemens/Azure motor/inverter combo, along with the UQM coda units, and maybe a LEAF. EVTV Motor Verks Store: 1 Generalized Vehicle Control Unit (GEVCU), Motors and Controllers, gevcu It's also open source if you don't want to deal with Jack.�
Feb 14, 2015
rlang59 It's in the shareholder letter from Q4 of 2013 (see page 2):
http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/ABEA-4CW8X0/0x0x727013/9885dd26-2e82-4052-b171-3685fd8150b3/Q4%2713%20Shareholder%20Letter.pdf
To further enhance the driver experience, new Model S customers will now receive free data connectivity andInternet radio for four years. As an added benefit to our existing Model S customers, the free four year periodstarts on January 1, 2014. To be fair to all, in rare cases a customer may be charged for extreme data use.�
Feb 15, 2015
schonelucht If they come out with stating it as such, fine. Own up to your price, if they want that money for continued connectivity and fast charging, why not, everyone still has the choice not to be their customer. But CJS2 stated that his car 'won't start'. To fix it, he needs to pay $1200 for the service center to do a software upgrade. He's paying, again according to the service center,a $1200 yearly to 'keep the car up to their specs' just so he can continue to drive the thing not 'for the supercharging and connectivity'. We know Tesla's communication is exceptionally poor, so you could still be right : what they say is not what they mean. But until they clarify their salvage title policy it is still reasonable for me and CJS2 to take their words at face value... That $1200 is not a reasonable price to keep a vehicle driveable while Tesla claims it to be so much simpler and lower on maintenance than everything else on the market.�
Feb 16, 2015
zhur0002 Sorry to hear about your car CJS2. My car is a 60 so supercharging was never paid for.
What computer controls everything in the car lets tesla know what vin# the car is etc.? Is it the BMS or does it have some other ecu that controls the car? When I was in Russia and was convinced that my car was turned off by Tesla I talked to a computer hack, he was very confident that he would be able to create a program that would be able get into the cars system and I would be able to scan the car, turn on supercharging. Does anyone have a spare BMS that they are willing to donate for research? It would probably cost me about $3k to create a program.
Latest update on my car: Clearing SRS module, cloning key and trying to figure out why I have torque steer under very heavy acceleration above 180kw. Car want's to move over into the left lane if I floor it, alignment is all set to spec.�
Feb 16, 2015
zhur0002 From my experience the 12V low battery message occurs when main pack stops feeding power to the 12v through the DC DC inverter. Voltage drops and the car displays that message, does not mean your 12v is bad. Occasionally my car will display the 3 messages when it decides to shut off "car may not restart, car unable to drive, 12v bat is low car may shut down" that only happens when I hear a solenoid click open somewhere underneath the where the motor is. Click sounds the same as when car is a sleep and you open a door.
I have not been able to solve my issue yet, only happens when I charge the car sometimes. Its either moisture or a bad connection somewhere. I already put a 1000 miles on the car.�
Feb 17, 2015
Gizmotoy I'm sure that's true in some cases, but not all. Certainly it's possible for the 12V to go bad, as tons of us can attest, without needing new DC/DC converters. Without a functioning DC/DC converter, your 12V is not going to last very long at all. A day or two? Something like that. The constant current draw on these things is pretty substantial.�
Feb 17, 2015
breser Not even that someone on another thread calculated the number of discharges a day the 12V does just from the vampire draw and I seem to think it was roughly every 8 hours. That's not accounting for using anything while driving which would increase that rate. Without a working DC to DC converter you've got a dead car pretty quick.
Edit: Here's the post I was thinking of:
Near annual replacement of 12V battery is typical according to Tesla Service Tech - Page 3�
Feb 17, 2015
Gizmotoy Worse than I remembered. Yikes. Thanks for the link.�
Feb 17, 2015
skilly Supercharging isn't free. Its included with the 85kW battery and thats kind of like saying the stock radio is free as long as you buy the car. They appear to have a value associated with it - noted in the build that its 2500.00 iif your car didnt come with the Supercharging option.
�
Feb 20, 2015
zhur0002 Another interesting thing I learned about model S. Disconnecting the 12V negative terminal before the car goes to sleep(contactors still closed) will not kill the car. Car will still function doors will open headlights will work, I did not try but will most likely be able to drive also. That surprised me because I thought it needed 12V power to keep contactors closed. The only thing I could think of its getting a ground from somewhere else and only uses 12V positive side to keep contactors closed. Meaning that the contactors will open instantly once positive side is disconnected. I did not disconnect the positive connection. Or another possibility is that I have sticky contactors that would explain why sometimes they open when I charge and leave the car dead. Any input anyone?
Going back to alignment shop today, car wants to torque steer to left if more than 120kw of power is delivered.�
Feb 20, 2015
wk057 The HVDC to 12V converter is operating while the contactors are closed, so the 12V battery shouldn't be used once they're closed. This seems like normal behavior.�
Feb 20, 2015
kennybobby Your pack contactors may need replacing, such as has been done for several battery packs as reported on this site. No telling what the throttle position was at the time of the accident, but the motor was likely spinning and pulling current, so the contactor life may have been used up or degraded in breaking the circuit while under a current load.
i don't know if your battery pack would be considered to still have a warranty and the contactors being covered under that.
Maybe you could find another battery pack to swap out and see if that fixes the problem, although any salvage pack may have also been running at the time of accident and have degraded contactors-- but at least you could know even if that is an expensive troubleshooting cost. i assume you could sell or part out any extra battery packs.
If that turns out to be the case then i think you could purchase a set of replacement contactors for about $1k from Tyco. The hard part will be the R/R since HV DC tends to have a high pucker factor and is not forgiving of mistakes. i have probed and made measurements on an 800 VDC buss while troubleshooting a 300 hp inverter and it is not for the faint of heart or those with shaky hands, so be careful if you pursue that route...�
Feb 20, 2015
zhur0002 Ok that makes sense, I'm just used to the Chevy Volt disconnecting the 12V shuts the thing down completely. With a Tesla once contactors are closed you could theoretically take out the 12v battery and car would function, HVDC would supply 12V for electronics to keep contactors closed. A way to disable contactors instantly would be take out the pyro-fuse or the fuse right before the pyro-fuse or unplug the loop for the emergency responders, that would cut the 12V supply to contactors and open them. Thanks
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There is nothing under warranty on my car, it makes me sad. Tesla is replacing the power-switches as part of preventative maintenance in a lot cars right now. That would most likely cure my problem, I wish they would issue an actual recall, than my car would qualify.�
Feb 20, 2015
breser For those that don't realize it an insurance company totaling a car voids the warranty.
From the warranty (page 42 as labeled in the document):
�
Feb 20, 2015
zhur0002 If you install a 85kw battery into a 60kw car, will the car realize its an 85kw battery?�
Feb 20, 2015
eco5280 Maybe, maybe not. Other companies will extend safety-related recalls to salvage vehicles but not all recall items. It's up to them, I don't think they're forced to work on salvage vehicles in every recall.
No, it needs a software update to switch it over. This is discussed in the thread with the guy that got Tesla to upgrade his battery last year. They have different software because the 60kWh is limited to 60 fewer horsepower as "The smaller battery isn't safely able to deliver the necessary current to provide 362 hp." A software update fixes that. But good luck getting Tesla to do it to a salvaged car, right?�
Feb 27, 2015
zhur0002 Guy's have spent about 6 hours on the alignment rack without any success. Car pulls to the right when producing more than 120kw under acceleration. Drives perfectly straight when coasting or under light acceleration. The all green picture had it how I first aligned it. The one with 0 toe for the rear is what I have it as now, feels the best, but far from right. Any suggestions?
�
Feb 27, 2015
AnOutsider Can't really help, but my car used to be very similar. I don't know what ONE thing did it, but the SC changed out some bolts, did an alignment and some other suspension stuff. It's not perfect, but doesn't pull more than I can easily compensate for.�
Feb 27, 2015
zhur0002 I'm sorry it pulls to the left, I need to turn steering wheel right to keep it going straight under acceleration.�
Feb 27, 2015
wk057 @zhur0002 going to PM you some info that may or may not help.�
Feb 27, 2015
zhur0002 Wk057 just studied the info that you gave me, that are the same spec's that the alignment machine had. So my initial alignment is correct. How does the differential work in the model S? Could it be that my right wheel is pushing harder than left making the front end go to the left? Never experienced this in a rwd car.
Put about 1500 miles on the car already tires seem not to have any access wear. Drove a 85 model s with coil suspension and when I accelerated it went always nice and straight. On my car my entire rear suspension leans to the right when floor it at 55mph.�
Feb 27, 2015
wk057 I wonder if any of your auto leveling sensors are having issues... only other thing I can think of off the top of my head.
Seems odd that it would be consistent at above 120kW though.�
Feb 28, 2015
kennybobby Check the rear rubber bushings for wear
The lateral attachments of the control arms are made using rubber bushings, and as the bushings wear it will allow a fore-aft displacement of the rear wheel position. You will need to get the car on a lift and use a large pry bar to put a fore-aft load on the control arms and test the bushing joints for looseness.
Looking at the rear suspension from below, the shape of the lower control arms appears to have a forward cant. If the left side moves back, or the right side moves forward, it would cause the rear of the car to pull to the left.
My guess is that the smaller joints in the integral link at the front of the knuckle might be the first to wear,
but wear in the large bushings of the LCA at the chassis could also produce the symptoms you described.
Bottom view of LR LCA
Aft view of LR LCA
Good luck and report back what you find, kb�
Feb 28, 2015
zhur0002 I would not call it consistent. Right at about 100-120kw it like a jab, like someone hit the car from the left side or pushed very hard on, to correct it you turn the wheel to the right about 8 deg and the car goes forward straight. When you let off the gas and have the steering wheel to right when power goes below 100-120kw it will jump back and steer where you are pointing the steering wheel.
We thought also that some of the bushings might have gotten tore, but everything seems like it should be on a 3k mile car. We even had car in the air with stability control off and in drive under load everything seemed to be staying in place.
I will try posting a youtube video of what it does.
Thanks�
Mar 2, 2015
W0QR I hope you realize how valuable your traumatic experience with this whole thing really is. This means that it's possible to fix a Tesla exService Center. You're paving the way to confidence in the viability of this technology. THANKS!�
Mar 2, 2015
kennybobby Remember at that power level and low speeds that the rear wheels are reacting about 1000 to 1500 lbs each against the asphalt, and that load has to be carried thru the suspension joints and bushings. So to test it you can't just run the motor on a lift as there is no reaction force to stress the joints.
That is why you need a 3 or 4 ft long pry bar and a block of wood to put force on the joints and bushings to observe how much deflection or looseness occurs. It could also be a loose fastener as i noticed there don't seem to be lockwashers used between the flat washer and nut. In any case a side load must be imposed on the joint to determine the integrity.�
Mar 3, 2015
neroden Worth knowing: Tesla is already using large amounts of open source software.
Illegally.
There's already a legal case being started over it by some of the copyright holders. Tesla has hired a lawyer who is known for specializing in delay, so the case will probably take a while before Tesla inevitably loses.
So you should be able to use large hunks of Tesla's software unchanged, due to the fact that it's already open source and they're required by law to release it. (Or discountinue selling cars.)
You should do it.
Yes, it is, and it's going to bite them in the ass.
----
Worthy of note: as a previous poster pointed out, the Massachusetts "right to repair" law requires that the manufacturer give independent repair shops the same information and tools which they give to franchised dealers. So it wouldn't be directly useful for Tesla owners.
However, this provides a potent political weapon for the dealerships in their fight to prevent direct sales by Tesla. See (the dealers can say), if franchises are required, people are guaranteed to have the tools to repair their car -- but if Tesla sells directly, they can just refuse to give you the tools to repair your car. This happens to be true.
If Tesla Motors execs are paying any attention whatsoever, they will quickly change their policy on independent repairs before the dealership association uses this potent weapon against them. (I am pretty sure that Tesla Motors execs are paying no attention whatsoever. They have been grossly incompetent when it comes to stuff like this.)�
Mar 3, 2015
NigelM You've been accusing Tesla of illegal activities for what 2.5 years now? And trying to encourage folks to start a legal case. Can you provide a link to this supposed legal case you're talking about?�
Mar 3, 2015
breser I think he's right about GPL violations, Tesla has no offer to provide the source (as required by the GPL) and we know they're using Linux. But those violations don't make all of their code open source as he suggests. But I'm also curious about the information on copyright holders seeking to enforce their copyright against Tesla.�
Mar 3, 2015
Gizmotoy Right. I don't think there's any question that they're currently in violation of the GPL and are vulnerable to a lawsuit over it. The assertion that this would make the vehicle's source available to the public, though, is unfounded. It is entirely possible to protect propriety code when also using GPL-protected code. Beyond the fact that it's a little suspicious they haven't complied with the terms of the GPL this far into the production run, we have no reason to suspect their proprietary bits aren't properly protected.�
Mar 3, 2015
kennybobby Let's keep this on topic please--how about y'all delete or move all these legal mess posts to the firmware section that already has this discussion. Thanks, kb�
Mar 7, 2015
neroden I never said it was all open source, and it isn't. I just said that *large hunks of it* are.
After getting stonewalled by Tesla for months, I notified some of the copyright holders, and they started the process. :shrug: Last I heard, Tesla was being obstructionist, but still didn't have an actual defense.
I don't know why Tesla doesn't just do the right thing. I asked them for the source for the exact version and configuration of Linux they were using (just the version of Linux) back in 2013; they still haven't provided it.
My point in regards to devising your own service manual is that you shouldn't need to reinvent *everything*. Knowing some basic stuff like what version of Linux (, Busybox, SSH, etc) is running on each chip, and how it's configured (there are, like, 20,000 configuration options for compiling Linux), would go a substantial way towards being able to get at the diagnostics for your own car.�
Mar 8, 2015
breser Come on now. The version and configuration options for the Linux kernel and SSH don't help that much in getting diagnostic information. SSH version probably doesn't help at all since SSH advertises version information when you connect and it's backward compatible anyway. I could see the Linux kernel information being helpful if you're trying to connect more hardware to the car due to knowing what hardware the system has drivers for. But we already know that Tesla has an Ethernet interface on the car that they've disabled.
I totally agree that you have every right to getting copies of the source of GPL code used in the Tesla and I agree that Tesla should provide it to you. But I think this has almost nothing to do with getting diagnostic information off this salvage Tesla. It's highly likely that their own code is running in user space under the kernel and thus isn't exposed to GPL. The best you could hope for would be some drivers to any unique hardware if they've been sloppy and actually implemented kernel drivers instead of putting everything in user space.�
Mar 9, 2015
AnOutsider Guys, the issue of Tesla and software rights has come up and been discussed numerous times in the past. Let's try to keep this on topic.�
Mar 9, 2015
breser You realize that's what I said?�
Mar 13, 2015
zhur0002 Car shut down again. I now have 4600 miles on it. In the past month or so that I have been driving it I had several problems of it shutting down while I was charging it. It would open up contactors and display Car Needs Service "car may not restart" usually unplugging the 12V battery for 30 min or so brought it back to life. Very rarely I would get an error message while driving Car needs service "car may not restart" It would display maybe for a second or so and than would disappear car would perform normally if I would not turn it off.
So yesterday I got out of the car while it was having it's little fit and it shut off leaving me stranded. Had it towed back to the shop, and disconnected the battery over night, when I came back next day connected the battery all was happy car was drivable. Than while I was doing other stuff around the shop I heard my contactors open. I came to the car it now has 2 messages Car Needs Service "Pull over Safely" and "car may not Restart". The only time I have gotten Pull over Safely message is when pyro fuse was missing, so its definitely something new. If I disconnect the 12V battery for a while and go to connect it will close HV contactors for a second that open them up again and display the 2 errors.
I'm thinking taking the main bat down again and looking at those connections. This car has been the most annoying and frustrating vehicle ever!�
Mar 14, 2015
wk057 Sounds like an issue with the high voltage interlock loop (HVIL). There is a loop that runs through all of the high voltage components, including the battery and drive unit, along with some micro-switches on the covers of things like the HV junction box under the rear seat, DC-DC converter, charge port, etc. If anything is wrong with this loop, like a bad connection, the contactors will open and you'll get the car needs service messages.
It is likely that in a collision part of this loop got damaged, maybe one of the micro switches or connectors?�
Mar 14, 2015
zhur0002 I think that you are correct I'm thinking it is some micro-switch that is sticking. One time when it shut itself off I gave a car a good shake and it clicked on again, might of been a coincidence. I have examined the pressure switch on the junction box under the seat and the charger cover. Where is the pressure switch on the DC-DC converter? I have the earlier style DC-DC converter located behind pass wheel.
On page 3 of this thread zarwin mentioned that he got his FJB replaced due to pressure switches not setting in correctly. The FJB I believe sits on top of the 12V battery(my part number on the top cover is very close to zarwin's replacement). I could not find any pressure switches on it. I think that my trouble switch is located somewhere by the DC/DC converter or around that area. Like I said my car sat outside for months and the FJB and everything that is the firewall got soaked every-time it rained. Does the AC compressor have micro-switch?
Does anyone have the schematic of the HVIL and all the pressure switches fuses it has going through it?
BTW: Got to see a taken apart tesla battery. I would say that just the aluminum shell weighs about 300lb. It is also sealed very good, there would be no way I could have any moisture get inside the battery from water going in between car and battery from rain.�
Mar 14, 2015
kennybobby Did you solve the pulling-under-power handling issue--what did you find? Any strange tire wear?�
Mar 14, 2015
wk057 I'm not 100% sure physically where the micro-switch is on the DC-DC converter side. I know there is a HV junction setup at the DC-DC converter end of the wiring for use with the AC compressor, cabin, and pack heaters however. So I believe it would be on the cover for that.
(Sent PM)�
Mar 14, 2015
zhur0002 No strange tire wear. I think that you are correct about bad bushings here is a video that I made of my rear driver side wheel. I'm taking the main battery down on Monday and will address the suspension issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTIZ1YIkIeg
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Here is the pressure switch on the DC/DC converter. It is located behind a metal cover that is held by a 10mm bolt. Mine seemed to look good and was sealed water tight. Did not make a difference with my problem.�
Mar 14, 2015
kennybobby When you say it did not make a difference--does that mean you still have the problem both with and without the metal cover installed on the dc/dc?
Looks like a good place to measure the pack voltage.�
Mar 14, 2015
zhur0002 I had the switch depressed manually with a skinny screw driver and it did not make my contactors close. Was still displaying car needs service message. It would be a good place if you can figure out how to depress the switch while measuring voltage.�
Mar 16, 2015
zhur0002 Took the main battery down today. Had some moisture on the connections that power the battery computer blew the moisture out put di-electrical grease on it. Thought that I fixed it. Not so fast about five miles into my test drive started to act up again took a video of it while driving. Additionally now as soon as I plug it in to charge it displays car needs service "may not restart" and I get the red ring around charge port contactors open up.
one that had some moisture in it
Loose bolt that caused car to pull under acceleration
HVIL pressure switch at the HV battery(male side)
Female portion part of the bat
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Here is the video of the car acting up while I drive it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjol38TptL8�
Mar 17, 2015
EV6 Did you try to add some sort of seal to the connector?�
Mar 17, 2015
wk057 Doesn't seem like a HVIL issue. I *believe* the car would shut down if it were a HVIL issue. "Car may not restart" suggests a 12V issue. Possibly the DC-DC, but not sure without diagnostic info.�
Mar 17, 2015
FlasherZ I was thinking the same thing - if it were the HVIL, you'd feel that "CLUNK" of the entire system disconnecting, and the P/R/N/D indicator would turn red. I can't imagine the car would allow a violation of that interlock to take place without shutting down the contactors and isolating the HV.�
Mar 18, 2015
zhur0002 This is after charging for about an hour. Hear my contactors open displays "Car needs Service" May not restart while charging ring goes red. Was able to disconnect 12v battery and reset car quick enough before contactors opened up again and turn car on. Once car is turned on it will not shut down just will do what is shown in the video and than be ok. The video is taken in the garage the car is on and is completely still no movement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5D5rGupRA0
Very closely related to the outside temp, seem to have more issues when its Minnesota warm out.(above 0 deg C) Or after charging car for a little bit. After it opens up contactors and stops charge, unplugging the car and opening and closing any car door usually closes up the contactors and car is ready to charge again, but will fail again after short period unless I let it sit for about an hour before I plug it back in. Sometimes opening the door will close contactors for a few seconds and than they will open again. I have a feeling that it still might be a bad connection to the HV battery computer module, uses the 12V system. While the car was on and having a fit I tried wiggling as many wires as I could with no luck. Or another possibility is that some sensor thinks something is not right or giving false data? Any thoughts? I'm lost.�
Mar 18, 2015
zhur0002 I guess all I'm waiting for to have the car 100% complete is a pyrofuse, get the pyrofuse installed and drive the car to Tesla to get it inspected. I'm sure they will know what's wrong with as soon as a scanner will get hooked up.
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My company has rebuilt a lot of car's and I do not even remember the last car I had to take to a dealer to get it running right. I hate to be defeated by a car but I think this Tesla did it.�
Mar 18, 2015
murphyS85 Are you certain that the cooling pumps are running and that there is no air in the cooling lines?�
Mar 18, 2015
zhur0002 Yes I checked all the pumps they all vibrate when I first connect the 12V on the car. There are just 3 of them located under the frunk? There could be a little bit of air in the system, when the rear seat is out I can hear antifreeze-air traveling through the hoses. Is that normal?
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Is there a way to bleed the system for air. I know there is a bleed plug on the front radiator and that is what I used to bleed the system.�
Mar 18, 2015
LMB (LMB spouse)
LMB's car had a pump replaced in our driveway shortly after delivery. The tech did a bleed cycle via software (at least, he said it would take a few minutes to bleed and he didn't appear to do anything mechanical to the car.)�
Mar 18, 2015
qwk You either need a password for the service menu, or a tesla laptop to bleed the coolant lines.�
Mar 18, 2015
zhur0002 I have neither of those yet. Does anyone know if password is unique to each car or is it all the same? Or if each software version has its own password? I would like to get into the diagnostic mode it will give me so much more info additionally I could then add fog lamps to the car since it now has them but does not see them.�
Mar 18, 2015
FlasherZ Rumors are that it's unique to car and is time-based.�
Mar 19, 2015
Adrian I can confirm both laptop software and service-menu password is a rolling authenticator code that changes for each time.�
Mar 22, 2015
XxCyberHackerxX Are you taking it to tesla? If so can you update us on how it goes�
Mar 23, 2015
zhur0002 Waiting to get my pyrofuse for the car before I contact tesla. The only thing I'm afraid about contacting tesla they will inspect the car and I might have something major wrong maybe like a bad control module inside the battery. They will tell me it will be $30k to fix it and will blacklist my car where they will permanently not sell parts or do any service on it unless a new battery is purchased.
I wonder if my car still has rolling authentication code since it does not get 3g updates anymore?�
Apr 27, 2015
CJS2 Bump*
Any updates on your progress Zhur0002?�
Jun 30, 2015
zhur0002 Car is at service center right now, they will be getting into it on Tuesday. Estimated cost is $1250 to start with for their inspection. If car passes all the test it will be 100% functional, will be getting software updates remote link etc. I will also be able to upgrade it to supercharge capability if I decide to(my car originally did not have supercharger capability). Only thing Tesla is not sure about is if the 3g service will be free for the remainder of the 4 years. I feel it should be since it was already paid for when the car was purchased. So far I'm happy with the customer service I have been receiving from the service center. Will keep everyone posted.�
Jun 30, 2015
AnOutsider that's awesome news!�
Jun 30, 2015
Sogorman Fantastic! Best of luck!�
Jun 30, 2015
AB4EJ Good news. Bear in mind that Tesla (HQ) is figuring out a lot of things for the first time, and things are in flux; so sales offices and service centers may sometimes be behind the info curve (based on discussions with sales center, and also experience with starting up a new assembly plant). It may take a few days for them to get an answer, because the answer has to be decided by the home office.�
Jul 2, 2015
zhur0002 Another interesting fact. The service advisor was totally aware of this entire thread, that's what I call total dedication!�
Jul 3, 2015
kennybobby Since you've got it in the system and they are working on it, can you ask them about whether a dcdc converter can just be swapped out or if they are serialized and require reprogramming or some CAN buss addressing, etc? Maybe we can get to understand more about how parts are swapped out.�
Jul 4, 2015
XxCyberHackerxX So are they actually fixing his car?�
Jul 5, 2015
Ingineer The G1 DC-DC will even run completely without the CAN bus if needed, so the car should have a baseline 13.6 volt float voltage even if it cannot see the Gateway or BMS. I have personally confirmed this on the bench.
Tesla's default procedure is to flash all vehicle firmware on any module replacement to mainly ensure it's compatibility, regardless if the module needs VIN information or not. I do not think the DC-DC needs a flash to work properly, at least within a certain version range.
Yes, please keep us updated on any progress so we at least have some baseline information for others in the community. This may be useful for other people's cars with crash damage, when Tesla decides not to support them for liability reasons.�
Jul 7, 2015
Sogorman Any update from tesla?�
Jul 11, 2015
mspisars Would love to hear if there is any update at all on this car!�
Jul 11, 2015
MsElectric I've been following this thread for a while. Good luck and I hope Tesla does the right thing in working with you to get your baby working properly. Please let us know of any updates.�
Jul 22, 2015
Ingineer We got Yauheni's car going w/o Tesla's help. I'd also love to hear what's going on with your's Zhur!�
Jul 31, 2015
mspisars Zhur dropped off the forum for almost a month now... Would love to see where this went!�
Jul 31, 2015
Ingineer Unfortunately some people come here for information, but never give much back. I get PM's often asking for help, and I tell them I'm not going to answer in private, only in a public post, that way everyone benefits.�
Aug 10, 2015
zhur0002 Guy's sorry for the long delay there was no news for the last month. Tesla had my car since June 30th to go through their processes. The car passed their inspection and they were able to start working on it last week. I did not want to log on, there was nothing to say except something negative. Reviewing the data logs on the car they determined that my battery has a intermitted short in the BMS, it is a shame since my pack is very healthy 198 ah. My choices right now are to buy a reman pack from them for about $17k that has 201ah rating and give them my pack as a core. Their new pack will only carry a 1 year 12k mile warranty. My second option is to find a used pack and they will program the BMS to work with my car. Final option is to have an independent expert look at my pack and try to repair it. Tesla strongly recommends the first choice.
I have told the service advisor who has been great to ask if I get an 85kw used pack if they could make my car an 85. The initial response was a no but the service advisor he will find out more since my car is not under warranty anymore.
Once the battery pack issue is solved I'm going to have an issue getting updates for the car. They can only update my car at the service center via usb port. Problem being that att blacklisted the sim card in my car. I have a earlier version of a screen where the sim card is attached to the motherboard att told tesla they can't activate that sim card because it has been black listed solution is a new up dated screen with a removable sim card option. I would need to pay for the screen and than would have a choice of carrier. Thank you ATT.
I need to make a lot of decisions now any input counts.�
Aug 10, 2015
HankLloydRight What about paying $500 for the LTE upgrade that replaces the entire cellular daughterboard and SIM card?�
Aug 10, 2015
XxCyberHackerxX That's a great idea! And I recommend to go ahead and buy a refurb battery pack�
Aug 10, 2015
zhur0002 Yes I was I was talking to Yauheni was a fuse in junction box. I'm glad for him.
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Just talked to tesla LTE upgrade just includes just the connectivity board does not include the SIM card unfortunately. Just had a phone call that they will not upgrade the car with a 85kw bat.�
Aug 10, 2015
XxCyberHackerxX Why can't they upgrade the battery?�
Aug 10, 2015
zhur0002 From talking to them I can sense that they are very strict about car modifications. They want the vin to match the car configuration. The vin# is for a 60KW and that is the only thing they will put in that car, since that is what it was originally designed for. If you have a 85kw they will not allow you to put a p85 motor in it.
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My optimum configuration of car would be p60d with that configuration I bet the car would be 2.5 seconds to 60mph. Since 60kw pack is about 300 pounds lighter.�
Aug 10, 2015
JRP3 I doubt the smaller pack could generate the amount of power needed for that 0-60 time, the weight reduction alone won't do it.�
Aug 10, 2015
drees That doesn't make sense. People who are doing the LTE upgrade are getting charged for a SIM card...�
Aug 10, 2015
zhur0002 Hmm interesting. I asked service advisor to give me a price on the screen maybe he will have more information about LTE upgrade and if it is possible in my scenario.�
Aug 10, 2015
qwk Most SC employees don't know much. There is so much misinformation from them, its scary.�
Aug 10, 2015
jaguar36 Is that $17k with the core? That seems awfully steep since they really are just taking the hit for repairing the BMS, I would have guessed even high side thats only gonna be a few k.
I'm suprised they even offer the option to have an independent expert look at the pack. That'd be the way I would go, particualrly since there are some folks on the board who have alot of experience with the BMS.�
Aug 10, 2015
zhur0002 Yes that is with the core. I thought that is kind of steep as well. Well they never told me I could have an independent expert look at it. It is my battery pack and I can do what I want with it, bottom line is that if I bring them a functioning 60kw bat they will program it to my car. It is my choice how I'm going to get them a functioning 60kw bat. Now, if they would give me 10year 120k mile warranty on their refurbished bat I would consider spending 17k on it. I'm almost better off buying a heavily smashed up 60kw car for the battery, selling parts off it to recoup my money taking the screen if it has a removable sim and the battery. Selling my battery to someone that wants to use it for a home project since the battery part of it is like new.
But on the other hand I would be taking a risk buying a smashed car without knowing the battery state on it. So it would probably be the best to try to save my battery, what I'm being told that the BMS is getting voltage readings where it should not and opening the contactors. According to tesla contactors are good in my pack and functioning as they should. Risk involved of someone besides tesla taking my battery apart and not being able to fix it, tesla will probably not want my battery as a core. I will ask how much they are giving me for my battery as a core value.�
Aug 11, 2015
tom66 It would be so nice and useful to get access to these Tesla debug logs. They would probably indicate the exact error, maybe even at the cell or module level, which would help you locate where the fault is.
Who wants to bet they are stored on those SD cards built into the touchscreen assembly? After all, that seems to be connected to the in car ethernet network, which is used by Tesla staff to access the rest of the car systems.
Also, this is the first time I've seen Tesla refer to the capacity of a Model S battery in Ah. 198Ah at 325VDC nom is just over 64.5kWh; Strange that is more than 60kWh but I wonder if that includes the "brick protection". Nominal capacity is 56kWh user-advertised, plus 4kWh zero mile?�
Aug 11, 2015
zhur0002 Would be nice to see the logs they are all stored in the car. I doubt that they will let me see it. Latest update is they must take an old battery in order to give a refurbished bat, they do not want people using their batteries for other purposes. So the price for a refurbished 60kw from tesla is $16k plus taxes. So eventually every MS owner will need to caugh up at least $16k to keep the model S going unless the price of the pack will be reduced.
As for LTE conversion they are talking to the engineering team to see if that is possible on my car, the sim card might just get clonned in the conversion. New screen replacement is over $4k. I do not think I should be responsible for that because Tesla and ATT caused that damage to my car, 3g was functioning when I first bought my car.�
Aug 11, 2015
jaguar36 So it basically sounds like they aren't offering you anything for your old pack, which is ridiculous.
Seems like this is the sort of thing that will change eventually as they think through the process and determine what the best standard procedure is. This just seems like a default, make the customer pay for everything kind of policy.�
Aug 11, 2015
Ingineer Sounds like they are concocting ways to discourage you from getting it on the road. I've never heard or seen of a MCU with a non-removable SIM card. I've seen several MCU's from all date ranges, and repaired a few that were not working. Every single one has the cellular modem on a removable daughterboard, and the SIM socket is on that board. As several people have pointed out, they could simply upgrade you to LTE for $500, problem solved.
When a warranty customer's pack has something go wrong with it, such as contactors or a bad module, they tear it open and repair the problem. But on yours, being out of warranty, they refuse to touch it. I'm very suspicious. What was the exact intermittent fault they claim is occurring? I would ask for a printout showing the fault.
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Yes, all logs are stored on the SD card. Problem is they are tokenized and not human-readable, so useless without their decoding toolbox.�
Aug 11, 2015
stopcrazypp Actually on the sim card thing, I remember reading on another thread of the modem supporting an embedded sim, so I find a non-removable sim believable.�
Aug 11, 2015
qwk They are all removable.�
Aug 11, 2015
zhur0002 As far as I know the battery was not even removed from my car all information they collected was from logs and diagnostics through the car. What I was told BMS sometimes is getting voltage readings where it should not and the pack should be replaced. I do not think our Service Center takes packs appart. They do replace contactors because my friend had his contactors upgraded at the facility. Additionally they charge 3.5 hours of labor to R & I the battery. Waiting for call back on the LTE upgrade information, will ask to get logs of codes emailed to me .�
Aug 11, 2015
Ingineer I'm willing to accept that possibility, but that still doesn't explain why they won't swap him out to an LTE modem. If he wasn't salvage, he'd be able to get the LTE upgrade no problem. Tesla hasn't said "only certain Model S cars are eligible for the LTE upgrade" (because they have a soldered SIM?), no they will swap the whole daughterboard and it likely comes with the SIM pre-installed.�
Aug 11, 2015
davewill Seems obvious to me that it's time to tear down the screen enough to see whether the sim is removable or not. The battery thing is just plain bad luck. It's a salvaged car and you always knew there could be a hidden problem like this. At least they're willing to pair up a battery if you can find one.�
Aug 11, 2015
Matteo On ebay somebody is selling 85 kWh modules for $1400 here. Maybe these could be used to repair your pack. I think the 60 kWh has the same modules with some cells missing.�
Aug 11, 2015
Ingineer The contactors are in the pack. You have to drop the pack and take at least some if it apart to replace them.
"voltage readings where it should not" doesn't make much sense. If it's leakage voltage, that could just be moisture in the connector.�
Aug 11, 2015
tom66 Ingineer, do you have access to a sample log file as you state they are tokenized, maybe it is possible to make some guesses as to the format? (Perhaps it is encrypted or compressed in some way?)�
Aug 11, 2015
Ingineer Unfortunately no, but I've seen what it looks like. Essentially random garbage to a human viewer.�
Aug 12, 2015
wk057 If they will program your car as an 85 with a used 85 pack, I would jump on that. Find a used pack in good condition and go for it, then resell your old pack to recoup some of the cost. This is probably the best bet, IMO.
Edit: Missed the part where they said no. Sorry to hear that. Sounds stupid since the 85 and 60 use the same motor and everything else besides the pack and a flag in the software.
This is where I'd start working with a shop in Massachusetts and start demanding the software that allows you to diagnose and work with the car to do these things myself.�
Aug 12, 2015
Ingineer If you don't have Air Suspension, you also have to change springs to upgrade the pack.�
Aug 12, 2015
stopcrazypp David Noland was the only one who got his car upgraded from 60kWh to 85kWh. After they did it for him their official policy has been that it is not offered (no one else was able to get it done). It'll be curious to see given they are offering 90kWh upgrades to 85kWh owners, if it also applies to 60kWh owners. However, for the OP the situation is a bit different given his car is a salvage title.�
Aug 14, 2015
zhur0002 My car is equipped with air suspension. Have not heard anything from tesla about LTE upgrade will call them today.�
Aug 18, 2015
zhur0002 Tesla is finally working with me and I'm very happy. I can't say anymore for now because none of their salvage policies are set in stone yet and they asked me not to disclose my situation to anyone. On the other hand I have purchased a parts car to be a donor for the battery pack. I need to have the bat pack inspected by Tesla in California to make sure it is in good working order before they program it to my car. Does anyone have a repair shop around San Francisco area or northern CA that has car hoist and a fork lift and is willing to help me remove the battery from the donor car? Please PM me and we will discuss this more. Thank you for all you guys help and being so active on the forum.�
Aug 18, 2015
sorka Many cars have been updated to LTE in the last week or so. Some are getting charged $500 with no tax and some are getting charged tax on top of that.
LTE upgrade is on the way�
Aug 19, 2015
jaguar36 That's great to hear, hopefully after this they will solidify and publicize their policies. (and they won't suck:smile
�
Aug 19, 2015
mspisars I will drink to that! Oh, wait, its not even noon yet!�
Aug 19, 2015
zhur0002 Does anyone know anyone in San Francisco, San Jose or anywhere in northern CA area that has a fork lift and a car-lift so I could remove the battery from my parts car? My parts car is currently in CA and I would hate to ship the car all the way back to MN and than ship or deliver the battery back to Fremont so tesla could test the battery. Plan currently is to drive to CA grab my parts car take the battery down deliver it to tesla in Fremont, have them inspect it and tow the parts car and the battery back to MN, and finally have a fully functioning MS on the road.�
Aug 19, 2015
JST Tesla won't help you out with that, if you deliver the complete car to them? It seems like if they are going to be inspecting the battery anyway, there is pretty much no one better positioned to remove it from the car.�
Aug 19, 2015
zhur0002 Yes, that would be the easiest solution but Tesla policy is that can't lay a wrench on a car that has not been certified. A car that is not certified by their repair shop is not even a car to them. The car I got for parts will never be certified I do not want to rub their feathers. They are at least working with me now and told me that I must provide them a battery pack not a wreck and that is what I want to do.�
Aug 19, 2015
JST Oy.�
Nov 17, 2015
zhur0002 Got my "Electra" back last week ago with LTE, latest firmware and a new battery fully tesla certified. I have driven it about 800 since than with no issues. It has been a journey thank you for all your the advise and help. This has been a journey but I have met a lot of interesting people doing this and without them this process would not have been possible.�
Nov 17, 2015
JimmyAZ That's great news! Congratulations!! This was a long process for you.�
Nov 17, 2015
S'toon Congratulations. Well done. Happy driving.�
Nov 17, 2015
Brass Guy By "new battery" I hope you mean the one from your parts car. Or did you have to by a battery?�
Dec 27, 2015
zhur0002 Yes battery from the parts car. Now, at 7700 miles with everything working perfect.�
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