Chủ Nhật, 25 tháng 12, 2016

JdeMO for the Roadster? part 1

  • Oct 5, 2015
    dpeilow
  • Oct 5, 2015
    AEdennis
    @dpeilow Tony has a 1.5 from one of our illustrious members in his shop now for this and when that member returns to Southern California, he has another willing volunteer to take its place.

    Looks like he is working on it. (And for the B Class electric too...)
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  • Oct 7, 2015
    m0rph
    I want it.. yes I want it! :)
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  • Oct 7, 2015
    Stefan T
    Me too
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  • Oct 7, 2015
    AEdennis
    @TonyWilliams is traveling around installing and building the JdeMO in a bunch of 2nd Gen RAV4EVs right now.

    So, I'm not sure his timing on the project for the Roadster. But with the new battery coming for the 2.x cars, higher speed charging becomes a necessity.
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  • Nov 19, 2015
    mpt
    Call to Action for JdeMO

    I just received word from Tony that they're getting going with the Roadster. In case anyone's not aware, Tony and his team have built CHAdeMO adapters for RAV4EVs and, after spending an afternoon with him chatting and looking over the unit whilst he installed it on a friends car, I was really impressed by the workmanship and the thought that went into the design - it is no hack!

    Here's what he said:

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  • Nov 19, 2015
    shrink
    Any idea where he's planning on putting the CHAdeMO charge port? There's not a lot of extra room in a Roadster. (Self-edit, I just read #16. So we'd have to charge with the trunk open).

    Tony should clarify a few things, too.

    8) Some Roadsters were indeed leased.

    12) I do not imagine any Tesla Service center installing this.
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  • Nov 19, 2015
    mpt
    Good point on leasing, are there any still leased I wonder?

    Location wise, that's undefined afaik however, there was talk of a trunk location or behind the license plate.
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  • Nov 19, 2015
    AEdennis
    Thanks for the update @mpt, glad you got to see AA's JDeMO equipped RAV4 @ Nauna's...

    I remember the meetings these guys were having in SoCal when they were debugging the protocol and several 3D printed mockups.

    The final product is definitely rock solid.
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  • Nov 19, 2015
    ElectricLove
    I got this message from Tony before as well, very cool that he is offering this kind of upgrade for us! I too am a little weary of the location of the charging plug, leaving the trunk open is sketchy (I wouldn't want to let it out of my sight but would inevitably need to if road-tripping, it'll take 30-60 minutes to charge up)

    I think integrating the port into the rear bumper (under the license plate) could work or at the air-intake in the rear... Or under the front hood in a manner that it could be closed/locked during charging... Options are limited though...
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  • Nov 19, 2015
    adiggs
    I gotta say - this sounds pretty exciting. Whether I'd personally take advantage or not. We have a pretty well developed Chademo network in the Pacific NW (West Coast Electric Highway) - this would definitely improve mobility up and down the coast, down to Eugene, and up to Seattle. H'mm...
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  • Nov 19, 2015
    Habious
    I also wonder about #9


    I think that's a question that only Tesla can answer. Are they OK doing annual service on a Roadster with this installed (since that requires removal of the PEM)?
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  • Nov 19, 2015
    ecarfan
    Good point. In my opinion, anyone considering making this modification to their Roadster should not assume that Tesla will be okay with it and be willing to service or repair their car in the future.
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  • Nov 19, 2015
    mpt
    The Rav4EV installation is 100% parasitical, no wires are cut or even tampered with, only clamped on to. Let's see what the Roadster design entails. I see it as being comparable to a regular service, as long as it doesn't complicate with extra work or stop them moving around it, it should be ok. Toyota techs have been more curious than cautionary with the Rav's it seems.

    fwiw, Tesla used to unplug my OVMS at service, but no longer.
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  • Nov 19, 2015
    shrink
    These are valid concerns, but I would also like to point out Tesla's policy seems to be evolving. About 2-3 months ago when I took my Roadster in for service, the service center asked me to sign a 3rd Party of Aftermarket Accessory Waiver (or something to that extent). I wish I kept a copy, but the gist was that Tesla would work on cars with 3rd party accessories (I have a few on my Roadster - subwoofer, stereo, back up camera, dash cam, OVMS, smartphone mount, lightening cable in place of dock connector, powder coated wheels), but Tesla reserved the right to remove or disconnect any accessories if it was required for their repair. Again, I don't have the exact wording, but they certainly seemed to acknowledge many owners now have non-OEM parts and accessories and were willing to work around them.

    A CHAdeMO/JdeMO is, of course, potentially a whole new beast, but if done well and professionally (and I expect nothing less from Tony), I imagine a knowledgeable owner with a good relationship with the service center could come to a mutual service understanding. No guarantees, of course, and there is certainly some risk, but the cost-benefit of CHAdeMO charging for $3000 vs a new battery for $29,000 might be well worth it for many owners' typical driving needs.

    I'll be following this closely.
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  • Nov 19, 2015
    AEdennis
    I'll look at this as both new battery AND JDeMO to allow really long travel and faster refill on a 300 mile Roadster.
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  • Nov 19, 2015
    Tesla 940
    I find the thought of having this option in the car interesting. However, just for kicks I looked at the PlugShare map for the greater Los Angeles area and it was shocking how many CHAdeMO's were non-operational and for extended periods of time or dealerships were limited their use to only their vehicles. Unless things change - I'm not sure how beneficial having this will be. I wouldn't leave home without my JR can and my RV plug cord.
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  • Nov 19, 2015
    mmccord
    I found question #12 very interesting...
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  • Nov 19, 2015
    Oba
    I don't have a Roadster, but without a Supercharger option, is sitting at an RV park for 5 hours (40 amps max from 50 amp RV service) or even 7 hours with a 70kWh battery) really competition? In a place like SoCal, you can't find ONE working charger with a car with a 150-200 mile range? Or the car with a 300-400 mile range?

    There has to be hundreds of these things in SoCal alone, and they can't all be broken. I'm not even sure why you would want to go to a Nissan dealer (or ANY car dealer) when there are so many chargers that are at shopping malls and restaurants (like Supercharger) and up and down the freeways (like the West Coast Electric Highway).

    Certainly, if you were in Kansas, this might not be a viable option. But, many major metro areas have chargers and both coasts of the USA are very quickly becoming quite doable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Could the boot storage be made to be enclosed with the lid open, so that all your boot stored items are locked and waterproof?
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  • Nov 19, 2015
    ecarfan
    Thanks shrink, that is interesting info. I recently had the annual maintenance done on my Roadster for the first time (I am the second owner) and I was not asked to sign anything like you describe even though I have an OVMS installed and an HUD speedo. I don't have any other aftermarket stuff, however. Would like to have a backup camera but that's a major project on a 1.5 car.
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    hcsharp
    Yeah, good luck with that! :biggrin::rolleyes:

    You have to read the question very carefully. He said "Can my local..." He didn't say "Will my local..."
    The first answer is Maybe. The second answer is a resounding No.

    My understanding is that Tony is doing most of the Rav4 installs himself. I wonder what would happen if I placed an order here in VT? Would they sell me the parts and let me do it myself?
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    Stefan T
    And if place an order on a kit
    I don't think he want go to me and install the kit
    Would he sell the kit to me so i can install it by self or i let someone do to me ?
    I live in sweden the tesla service guys have more or less never worked with a roadster
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    mpt
    From Tony:

    {I've updated the original FAQ post above}
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    djp
    You could still close one side of the trunk lid to keep the trunk closed and protected. Possibly even both sides if the cable is run through the center, the lid is fairly flexible.

    I live in a CHAdeMO desert so the port isn't that useful to me yet, but could be a very interesting add in the future. I'm also wondering how Tony will handle installations outside the west coast.
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    m0rph
    The price is very attractive. I'd buy one if available for Europe..
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    mpt
    Tony originally went on tour around the US to install the RAV units. I'd expect same again or a trip to a local agent dealer be that Toyota or someone else certified to work on high voltage equipment.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Please contact Tony with a deposit as a means to cement that interest. We do need to reach some threshold where is makes sense for Tony to invest the time and effort, well, to be fair, make that cost and cost!
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    TOBASH
    I am super interested BUT I don't like the trunk idea... I actually would prefer to cut a port into my passenger side that would look and function like the door for regular charging on my driver's side.

    Is that a possibility?

    The other option is to cap the port and place it in the rear of the car where a Lotus would have an exhaust muffler hole.

    Another option would be to hide the port inside a rear wheel well, and cap the port to protect from dirt.

    Another option would be to cut a hole in the trunk over/to the side of the rear wheel well and mount the port to the rear wheel well.

    Best,

    T

    P.S. - How much is a JDEMO charger if I chose to install one at my place of business?
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    ravng
    If Tony would do an european tour, or partner up with someone, I would be first in line to get this update. There is chademos everywhere here. No I am "stuck" paying for 43kw charging while I only get 14kw into my roadster

    Edit:
    Re-read, and see that they are partnering up with someone in Norway. So maybe it will be a reality!
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    supersnoop
    I imagine a flip-down license plate would be an easier and less intrusive solution.
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    jeremyz
    I suggested to Tony that he should put the port behind the license all 70's style gas bomb style. All I heard back from him was crickets. I think it's a good idea because it's hidden and you're just cutting into plastic instead of carbon fiber. I also think there would be a ton of room down there.
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  • Nov 20, 2015
    Stefan T
    I think this is better becase if starts to rain is bad ide with trunk open+ you can't live the car if you have annything in the trunk becase of risk of it be stolen
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  • Nov 21, 2015
    eugenel
    Sounds interesting, and maybe a more practical and cost-effective alternative to the v3.0 battery upgrade. I'm guessing that a ferry trip to Norway for fitting would be required? Also, given UK weather, a connection option that didn't involve leaving the boot/trunk open would be more desirable.

    That said, I'm certainly interested.
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  • Nov 21, 2015
    asgard
    I am not sure the Roadster battery cooling was ever designed to work with such a high rate of charge. Heat kills batteries faster than you think. My original LEAF with the ChaDEMO charger lost 5% capacity after just 4 ChaDEMO charges.
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  • Nov 21, 2015
    GSP
    That is unusual.

    Plug in America did not find any correlation between battery capacity loss and fast charging usage in their multi year survey of hundreds of Nissan Leafs. The only variables that correlated with capacity loss were high ambient temperatures and vehicle mileage.

    Also, a third party tested two new Leafs for 100,000 km on a test track. One was always fast charged, the other always L2 J1772. No difference in capacity loss.

    This is on a car with no battery cooling system whatsoever.

    GSP
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  • Nov 21, 2015
    stopcrazypp
    Might vary depending on it is the heat resistant battery or not. I suspect in most situations the amount of quick charging isn't enough to matter. Even back when Nissan had a warning, it was against charging more than once per day. If you aren't doing a back to back charge, the pack probably won't heat soak enough for it to matter. It's going to be rare with the Leaf's short range to be doing quick charges back to back (probably the only case close were the Leafs in Japan being used for taxi duty).
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  • Nov 21, 2015
    ElectricLove
    We have a Leaf and have ChaDeMo charged it at least a dozen times and haven't had any capacity loss beyond what is to be expected... We have the original battery pack in our car, not a "lizard pack" it is a 2012...
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  • Nov 21, 2015
    Oba
    Doesn't the JdeMO equipment monitor the cell / pack temperature? I can't imagine it being designed to not do this.

    Also, the equipment wouldn't just arbitrarily pump energy in without monitoring other battery basics, like cell / pack voltage, faults, etc.
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  • Nov 21, 2015
    ecarfan
    I thought that the Roadster software monitors the battery and adjusts the charging power as needed. Your post appears to say that the charger monitors the battery. I don't think that is correct.
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  • Nov 21, 2015
    stopcrazypp
    I'm not sure by JdeMO you mean the part on the car or the charger.

    If you mean the charger that is not true. While the car does transfer battery parameters to the charger first to ensure compatibility, once the charge session starts the BMS on the vehicle controls the entire process (including cell / pack conditions). The charger itself only monitors the signal that the vehicle uses to command it (basically current).
    https://code.google.com/p/open-chademo/

    If you mean the JdeMO equipment installed in the car, that may be true. It might not be the Roadster BMS doing the job.
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  • Nov 22, 2015
    asgard
    I drove my new Leaf from San Jose to Sacramento and back with only a short stop in Sacramento. On the way I charged ChaDEMO twice back to back and on the way back I had to charge twice again. I lost a full capacity bar on the Leaf that day. I ended up filing a complaint with Nissan and they attributed it to the ChaDEMO.
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  • Nov 22, 2015
    Oba
    I think we're confusing elements of how this has to work. The CHAdeMO charger is just that... an off-board charger. This JdeMO equipment is somewhere between the battery and the charger. The vehicle BMS is programmed to control up to 70 amp / 240 volt AC charging (16.8kW / 42 to 56 amps DC at battery voltage from the Roadster onboard charger or three phase motor, depending on which Roadster model), in addition to its many other functions.

    I can't imagine that the Tesla firmware is modified to now provide the ability to detect DC charging (which CHAdeMO does not send, unlike CCS / Supercharger which sends a signal of "less than 6 amp", signifying digital communication), in addition to modifying the Tesla BMS power settings (at least 125 amps DC, up to 200 amps DC). I'm sure there are other things I'm overlooking.

    It was stated up thread that the RAV4 EV version was parasitical, so it doesn't seem logical that this version for the Roadster would be a different design, correct? In the grand scheme of things, a 400 volt battery is just that. But, as we know from the Tesla CHAdeMO adapter, there must be some basic suite of hardware, including relays.

    It sounds like that hardware goes in the boot, which means that the actual inlet could likely go anywhere with enough cable between the hardware / relays and the CHAdeMO inlet. The other end of the hardware would be connected to the battery somehow. That hardware, if operating as a parasite, must be fully capable of controlling both the CHAdeMO charger and adjusting the charge rate by whatever the BMS is reporting concerning the battery parameters.

    If if there were no BMS interaction, clearly this could still charge the battery, albeit without the protections of exceeding any limit of the battery. So, my conclusion is that the BMS on the Roadster will be "along for the ride", and not controlling anything except its normal duties of cell balancing, protection from bricking, and blindly reporting all the data that we already know (from service center screen shots) that it reports... pack and cell voltage, temperature, etc.

    What more would any off-board charger need to properly charge the battery? By your link, the SINGULAR most important piece of information the off-board charger needs is "how many amps?". It appears any external hardware can provide this information to the charger with the data derived from BMS reporting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    This seems to be an "open and shut case". Clearly CHAdeMO destroys batteries after just a couple uses. I recommend switching to Superchargers... just trade that LEAF in and get a shiny new Model S, Model X, or in a few years, Model 3.
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  • Nov 22, 2015
    stopcrazypp
    I understand all that, that's why I wanted clarification when you say "JdeMO" were you specifically referring to equipment on the car, or are you including the off-board charger. I have no idea how the RAV4 EV JdeMO works (did it involve firmware modifications on the RAV4 EV?), which is why I refrained to say if the Roadster BMS had anything to do with it.
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  • Nov 22, 2015
    Oba
    I assume that with the description given as "parasitical" meant that there are no firmware changes. That would be invasive. Plus, if the same equipment is doing more than one car, it seems unlikely that there would be many (or any) changes to the actual cars.
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  • Nov 22, 2015
    stopcrazypp
    That's probably a good assumption, but going through the FAQ for the RAV4 EV JdeMO doesn't really make it clear if there are any firmware changes. So can't really say for sure.
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  • Nov 22, 2015
    TOBASH
    I just spoke to Tony. What a great guy! Tony has explained a little bit about how this device works. The device has an 11" x 6" x 5" box. He recommends placement of the box in the trunk. The actual charger port can be placed anywhere. The standard charger port comes with 1 meter of wire. For custom installations, the end user can request additional length for placement almost anywhere on the car.

    Ultimately, Tony has a device that works, and he is glad to customize to allow the device to meet the end user needs.

    He is quite receptive to input, and he seems as if he will be super friendly and super easy to work with.

    He has been following our thread, but apparently is unable to post.

    I am very interested in this device, and I plan on purchasing one in the near future.

    At some point I will also be installing a CHAdeMO in the new office that I am building. If and when that becomes a reality, I will of course give that information to Bonnie so that she can posted in the appropriate channels for Tesla Roadster owners in the New York area.

    Best,

    T
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  • Nov 22, 2015
    AEdennis
    Weird that he wasn't allowed to post here on this, since he is authoritative and some of the members posting on this thread are involved with TMC... Either way, I invited Tony to cross-post on another (more generic) EV forum at SpeakEV.com... Thread for that site is here - CHAdeMO for Tesla Roadster, Quick Charge Power JdeMO deposits | Speak EV - Electric Car Forums

    The more Roadster owners hear about it and put their 2� in (or more accurately $2,999) the better chance that this will happen. After all, he and his team did make it happen for the 2nd Gen RAV4EV.
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  • Nov 23, 2015
    dpeilow
    This is the best news I've heard all year.

    Funnily enough I was talking to a member of Tesla Engineering staff yesterday at a supercharger. Before he admitted he worked for them, we were talking about the 3.0 battery and the topic of Roadster supercharging. He said it was probably too difficult and expensive and I said I heard a rumour that a CHAdeMO upgrade was coming, to which he thought it would damage the PEM - but admitted that he had not heard of the project and would go check it out.

    Then I logged in to TMC this morning to see that the project it likely on. I can't see it damaging the PEM, but I do hope that once word reaches TESLA that someone can do this for < $3k it makes senior management ask themselves why they can't offer supercharging as part of the 3.0 upgrade.
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  • Nov 23, 2015
    spaceballs
    I've had a good look into the PEM, I see no risk of damaging the PEM via a DC tap/input procedure is done correctly.
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  • Nov 23, 2015
    mpt
    To add to TOBASH's comments.

    The RAV4EV unit listens to the can bus for information on the state of charge and vehicle situation, e.g. is it turned on? Are the batteries warm? etc. It only speaks when needed to, e.g. "Please don't drive away, the CHAdeMO cable is still plugged in!!!" and this they've done by looking for and replicating existing error conditions - in the extreme on the Rav, i.e. the drivers turned the car on, and selected a direction, the unit will issue fake fatal errors to stop the car. With the Roadster, it might be easier as it already has a sensor for 'charging door open' so, Tony can probably simulate that. So, no firmware updates, nice battery condition monitoring and a pleasant user experience.
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  • Nov 23, 2015
    asgard
    Is the BMS and cooling designed to cope with the heat generated from 400V charging?
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  • Nov 23, 2015
    mpt
    I think that we have to assume that - no point it creating one that doesn't.
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  • Nov 23, 2015
    Oba
    All charging with ANY battery is done at up to (and even slightly above) battery voltage. The cells in the Roadster are 99 in series multiplied by 4.2 volts maximum. So, yes, over 400 VDC.

    The question you needed to ask is "high amperage" going to cause too much heat and overwhelm the cooling system.
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  • Nov 23, 2015
    asgard
    Oops yes. You are right. Thanks for reminding:)
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  • Nov 23, 2015
    Oba
    The answer, of course, is that any modern charger (Supercharger, CHAdeMO, CCS, GB/T) can and will adjust current in one amp increments from zero to the maximum possible, all at the control of the vehicle.

    So, assuming the vehicle is programmed correctly, the charger will deliver the correct number of amps.
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  • Nov 23, 2015
    miimura
    You can see some pictures of the production JdeMO parts in a RAV4 EV on that forum here. They decided to have the car ON in the READY state, but in Park and the parking brake set for JdeMO quick charging. That way all the Tesla BMS, cooling pumps, etc. are fully working. The JdeMO controller is listening to the Tesla CANbus the whole time since it indicates current limits for the battery. The Tesla BMS is controlling the charge tapering and the JdeMO controller is just passing the correctly formatted control commands to the CHAdeMO charger.
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    stopcrazypp
    Is the BMS on the RAV4 EV charger aware (meaning it will never issue a current demand that exceeds 10kW of the onboard charger) or will it always note the maximum allowed and let the onboard charger give as much as it can? This is a fairly important distinction, or it would have to be the JdeMO making assumptions about the safe maximum current to charge.
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    drees
    The BMS most likely broadcasts a "max charge current" which the car uses for both limiting L2 charging as well as limiting the amount of regenerative braking allowed.

    So by tapping into the CAN bus and listening for that value along with monitoring other parameters, you can safely charge the battery. To the car, it will just look like you're undergoing regen while standing still if the car is left on like on the RAV4-EV.
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    dpeilow
    I'm also thinking we Europeans could partner it with one of these for the ultimate flexible charging solution on the road. http://design-werk.ch/wp2/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/MDC22_E.pdf

    Come to think of it, QC Power's technique of bypassing the PEM would allow 3 phase charging to be built in to the car - e.g. via a Brusa charger with some CAN control electronics between it and the Tesla PEM.


    MDC22_Product.png
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    m0rph
    Miimura made an insteresting remark. In the RAV4, the car must be on (with key) during the charge. Even if a good location can be found for the charge port, I can't see myself leaving the car with the key in there.
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    dpeilow
    I think the Roadster is different in that opening the charge port door wakes it up. This can probably be faked. Let's wait and see what Tony comes up with.


    By the way, CHAdeMOs in Europe...

    EU CHAdeMO big.png
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    Stefan T
    And i can see there is manny missing in sweden
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    dpeilow
  • Nov 24, 2015
    tom66
    The concern I would have is if the Roadster battery is capable of being charged continuously at more than 16kW. For example, the cell balancing logic may not be able to balance enough current from each cell to prevent overcharging. Also, I am almost certain Tesla would void any battery warranty if this was used, as this would be operating the battery beyond design specifications. If the battery were not charged over the standard 90% charge then some concerns would be eliminated -- it would primarily be down to cooling. Charging a lithium-ion battery is less efficient than discharging one, so assuming 50kW charging is worse than say 50kW/80hp average power, how well will the cooling system be able to cope with the rate of charging?
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    Stefan T
  • Nov 24, 2015
    spaceballs
    I suggest you calculate C rate for each cell, likely will help answer your question.

    This make no sense, cell balancing only kicks in after charging is done.

    I think If it fails it's the car manufacture job to prove that it caused the failure. Also worse case in my view is faster battery degradation which isn't covered by Tesla anyways.

    ESS will kick on cooling if it gets warm, I've done tests and I believe it it can cool the ESS fast for higher C charge rates. Also think about the discharge rates of the ESS on how fast it needs to cool the pack down if you were to take it on a race track....
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    Stefan T
    one another ide accoring this topic is use CCS/EU insted of Chademo and replace the roadster contact with Type2 CCS/EU intlet
    And in that case that posible to charge both AC and DC in same inlet
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    tom66
    C rate for whole pack around ~1C at 50kW charging. Most li-ion cells are capable of this, but there are some cells that are less capable.

    I have worked with batteries that balance during the end stage of charging too. Presumably the existing controller can measure the cell voltages and end charging (or modulate power towards zero) as soon as any once cell hits, say, 4.2V. Will the new JdeMO controller do this? I do not know if the Roadster balances only when charge current is zero or if it balances throughout the cycle. I'm also not sure what the peak voltage they use is, I suspect it's much lower than 4.2V to increase cell lifetime.


    Yes, most likely--but they would also immediately point to such a system in the case of any failure, such as the PEM, because they share the same battery bus. The owner would have to contest such a decision to refuse service. Lawyer up!

    Question is, can it do this without air flowing over the radiators? (I haven't looked into it but I'm presuming the Roadster has exposed radiators like the Model S for cooling while driving.) I know the Roadster has cooling fans but is the system purely designed to remove heat generated by 17kW charging? Would 50kW charging be possible given the lack of direct air flow?

    There are a lot of unanswered questions about this project for me.
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    Habious
    Yes...and no. Theoretically, it's up to the Manufacturer/"dealership"/Service Center to prove that the modification caused the failure. In practice, they can just tell you "We're not going to work on your car because you modified it."

    Then what? You gonna sue them? If you can hire a better lawyer than theirs, you'll probably win the case. In the meantime, you'll have a really cool-looking lawn ornament. And, since it'll take 3 years to work through the court system, and the problem you're most-likely bringing the car in for service is the battery/charging, you're gonna have a dead battery pack at the end of the day.

    I put in an aftermarket remote system in my Lexus once. Independently of that, I later had issues with the immobilizer system recognizing a valid key present (causing the car not to start sometimes). I took it to my Lexus dealership, and they said "There's too much going on in there that we don't know anything about - We're not going to touch it."

    The aftermarket system I'd installed worked in parallel with the existing wiring, and "no wires were cut" during the install. None the less, Lexus would not touch the car.

    I'm in no way saying "No one should do this!!!"; but I am saying that people need to be aware of the consequences. Especially considering that you can't take your car to "another dealership" for a second opinion, or take the car to an "independent service center".

    I'm also not saying this WILL happen, but I am saying it COULD happen.
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    spaceballs
    Pack is 53kwh, so ~1C be at 53kw. You seem worried about this maybe you should find closest cells matching the roadster and run tests on it.

    Switching from CC to CV is a good question, you should find out by asking the project owner for QA and post back here?

    Do you own a roadster because if you did you should know the answer, the electric fans on the radiators have more than enough capacity. Also saying "I know the Roadster has cooling fans but is the system purely designed to remove heat generated by 17kW charging?" is just weird, think about how much is has to remove when you discharge at the maximum rate.

    How about seeing any of the modified Rav4 EV are having any of these issues? Or how about emailing the project owner for QA and post back here?

    - - - Updated - - -

    So your suggesting no significant car modification should ever be done to a car you own? And always roll over when Manufacturer/"dealership"/Service Center says tough?
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    stopcrazypp
    I think his point was that when the car is stationary the air flow is completely different than from when you are discharging at maximum rate. You will not be anywhere near stationary when the discharging at maximum rate.

    Radiator fans are typically not designed for a situation where the engine/motor is at maximum power but the car is stationary. For example, some cars overheat on a dyno when there is no external fan to provide air flow. While in this case, the car is not at maximum power, the difference is that it is at high power for a continuous amount of time (while a typical dyno run lasts an extremely short period in comparison).
    �
  • Nov 24, 2015
    ElectricLove
    Has anyone modded a US Roadster PEM to accept 3ph input for charging?

    Having been inside the PEM I can see what needs to happen but would really rather have a working sample to work off of... Perhaps a 3ph input Roadster owner would be willing to post some pictures of the inside of their PEM? It is my understanding (and I may be wrong) that the Euro-spec 3ph variant will allow something like 50% increased charging speed... I know it isn't DC quick charging but it would be an improvement...
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    spaceballs
    Roadster has two of these in the 625 CFM 9" Spal Curved Blade Puller Fan 30100452 VA07-AP12/C-58A - Universal Parts Inc. | High Performance Automotive Cooling | Humboldt, IA
    over the Radiator, they have plenty of CFM. Why don't you do the math to see how much heat would need to be generated at high charge rate? As if you know the IR of the battery, and charge rate.. you would know how much heat would need to be needed to be removed.

    Also if this mod listens to the CAN bus it then would have the ability can back off C charge rate if ESS temp gets to high.. Also be able to see bricks voltages and taper from CC to CV without issues.
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    dpeilow
    There are no 3 phase input Roadsters. The EU ones are also single phase 70A.
    �
  • Nov 24, 2015
    miimura
    The RAV4 EV has the Toyota Smart Key System with push button start. You can take the key fob with you and lock the doors with the mechanical key, leaving the car in READY mode. However, if someone disconnected the charger and broke a window, they could drive off. To me, this is good enough for the kind of locations that host CHAdeMO chargers in California. I would mostly only be gone for a restroom break anyway. The hood also remains open about 8-10cm.

    Edit: Also, if you do things like turn off the Daytime Running Lights and the NAV screen, it's not obvious that the car is on at all. The instrument panel is the only thing that would give it away. I think you can turn down the backlight on the instruments too.

    Obviously, the CHAdeMO port placement on the Roadster will be very important.
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  • Nov 24, 2015
    stopcrazypp
    I can only do the cell part, not radiator airflow part (don't have the expertise). The cell I picked as closest is the Sanyo UR18650F (era is correct, Sanyo had confirmed contract with Tesla, capacity 2200-2400mah correct), DC internal resistance is 0.102 ohm. At 50kW and 410V charging voltage, current is 122A. 122A is split over 69 cells in parallel, so 1.77A per cell. That means 1.77A^2*0.102 ohm * 6831 cells = 2.18 kW of heat from cells alone (before module/pack level losses).
    http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20100028067.pdf

    At 16kW charging (ignoring AC-DC losses at the moment for simplicity and to be even more conservative), that goes down to 39A, or 0.565A per cell. That means 0.565A^2*0.102 ohm * 6831 cells = 0.222 kW, which is a huge difference.

    For the Leaf, pack level charge resistance is 0.12 ohm. At 50kW and 403V charging voltage, that is 124A, so 124A^2*0.12 ohm = 1.85 kW of heat at pack level.
    http://media3.ev-tv.me/DOEleaftest.pdf
    Unfortunately I wasn't able to find cell resistance yet, which would be useful to estimate the pack level resistances and use it with the Roadster figures.

    edit:
    For the heck of it, I decided to do the CFM part as an estimate. The Roadster reaches peak power at ~40mph (3520 ft per minute). From the radiator fan being 9.72 inch * 9.72 inch and having two next to each other, the radiator is at least 2*9.72 inch * 9.72 inch =1.3122 sq ft in area. 3520ft*1.3122 sq ft = 4619 CFM from driving airflow. That compares to 625*2 = 1250 CFM with the fans alone.
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  • Nov 25, 2015
    felixtb

    As far as I know the EU roadsters are also single phase........?! were there some very last ones that were produced with 3ph....? I never heard of them at least.

    - - - Updated - - -

    ah dpeilow you got there before me. :)
    �
  • Nov 25, 2015
    spaceballs
    That more than enough to move 2kwh of heat, i.e. think of the size of your small portable AC space heater fan and how much heat it's moves.

    Good to see you crunching numbers!
    ~2kw is might be near the max capacity of the heat-pump in the roadster. But the nice thing about the large ESS thermal mass, even if you were at the limit of the heat-pump it would still be good enough. i.e. I've already did some ESS heat soak testing (your on that thread I see) with my roadster and shows even at 16kw charge with no active cooling on a >100F day, and ESS VDS temps stayed within nominal ranges. And when I enabled the ESS active cooling it cooled the ESS down fast.

    All this is nonissue anyways if this mod can monitor the CAN bus and thus limit charge rates and temps.
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    Oba
    It's fun to pontificate about all the wrong ways to do this, but something has to control the CHAdeMO charger. That is one of two ways:

    1) a reprogrammed Tesla firmware
    2) an auxiliary external firmware

    Either way would work, but I'm guessing whatever method is used, it just HAS to have AT LEAST the basic battery data, including voltages and temperatures that the car already knows. It's a bit silly to think that the battery would be allowed to overheat, as several seem to suggest.

    Somenody asked up thread if there were any issues with the RAV4. It seems that if this equipment is already deployed on that car, if it either didn't work, or didn't work well, or caused some equipment issues, there would be people complaining. With an admittedly short search, I couldn't find anything like that.

    There is a thread on the RAV4 forum that is two years old with over 50,000 hits.
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    dpeilow
    Indeed RAV4 owners have posted that the mod works well in regular use.
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    tom66
    Although the RAV4EV is based on a 2nd Gen (Model S-like) battery, powertrain and cooling system, which was designed with fast DC charge support at 90/120kW, where the Roadster isn't.

    Remember the fiasco of 90 vs 120kW charging and how Tesla won't upgrade packs to support faster charging. Obviously they believe there are limits that aren't just down to cooling.

    Does the Roadster use the AC compressor during charging like the Model S? When supercharging the Model S fans go full blast in hot weather.

    I just have concerns that charging the battery at over 3x the original design rate may cause problems. Perhaps I'm being overly cautious, though.
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    Stefan T
    It sound like the AC is working if it hot and charging with little higher current
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    dpeilow

    I think it's fair to say that most Roadster owners - at least those who participate here - are pretty technical and are well versed with the issues you describe. We are aware that the RAV4 uses an evolved version of the Tesla battery architecture.

    The guys developing this took a long time to understand the issues on the RAV4 and have stated they regulate charge based on reported temperature. I have no doubt that 1) they understand and will do the same with the Roadster and 2) will test it thoroughly with the kindly donated Roadster in California before it goes on general release.

    Others have shown in this thread and previously that the Roadster HVAC system has plenty of thermal overhead, but even if the full 50 kW from CHAdeMO cannot be acheived, just having access to a much bigger network of chargers than the ubiquitous 7 kW posts would be worth the upgrade by itself.
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    samcarney
    Excellent point about the network and even at a more relaxed 30 KW the charge rate will be close to 100 CMPH.
    �
  • Nov 26, 2015
    dpeilow
    Found this vid with Tony talking about the work last year.

    �
  • Nov 27, 2015
    dpeilow
    By the way, I know that Tony is skeptical about the value of supporting the Frankenplug in the US, but for Europe I think there could be some value in having CCS and CHAdeMO supported on the unit.

    CCS/Combo Charge Map - Europe

    Although many chargers have both plugs, there may be times when the CHAdeMO is in use or out of order.
    �
  • Nov 27, 2015
    Stefan T
    Is mabe better with CCS in europe
    That's posible to change the inlet to a CCS type 2 and still posible to charge AC and support DC in same socket
    �
  • Nov 27, 2015
    dpeilow
    To be clear - I meant to have CCS and CHAdeMO. I would not want to go without CHAdeMO.
    �
  • Nov 27, 2015
    AEdennis
    I think another reason for the development of JdeMO instead of CCS was the ready support that @TonyWilliams got from fellow #EV folks in testing and reverse engineering CHAdeMO over the past few years. The project started a while back and CCS deployment was pretty sparse in California at the time.

    Secondly, the CCS standard is also different in its deployment between NA and EU, not sure about Asia or Oz...
    �
  • Nov 27, 2015
    miimura
    The JdeMO for RAV4 EV has an additional microcontroller type cpu that is talking to the CANbus on one side and the CHAdeMO charger on the other side. It is basically acting as the middleman to talk to the CHAdeMO charger based on what the car is saying about its status. There is no change to any Tesla or Toyota firmware in the car - it is completely bolt-on and can be completely removed with little or no evidence that it was ever there. Tony and crew went to great lengths to get exactly matching connectors from automotive suppliers. The Yazaki CHAdeMO inlets are particularly long lead time and relatively expensive, which is one reason that they required such large deposits before committing to the project.
    �
  • Nov 29, 2015
    Doug_G
    Personally I would be more interested in a Chademo to J1772 20kW adapter. I'm sure that is possible, and would require no mods. Yes it woukd require a fairly powerful AC inverter, but it would allow fairly rapid charging at many more locations than are currently covered by high power L2 stations.
    �
  • Nov 29, 2015
    MileHighMotoring
    That's something that has been discussed on every EV forum for many years. It's not going to happen IMO. Too different in design and purpose, not to mention hardware.
    �
  • Nov 30, 2015
    Stefan T
    I have mailed Tony and did some quistions according the JdeMO kit for roadster
    The control box shall be placed under the trunk and the Chademo inlet can be placed anny were you want to do it but he said that behind the licesce plate is the best ide for the moment
    �
  • Nov 30, 2015
    Stefan T
    And one more thing
    His plan is to have the kit ready in June 2016 for 2,5 roadsters
    �
  • Nov 30, 2015
    m0rph
    Did you ask about installation in EU? Personally, I don't need it, but I want it :cool:
    �
  • Nov 30, 2015
    dpeilow
    We have a discussion going on at the thread mentioned above. There is an ex Roadster technician in the UK who has volunteered to fit it.
    �
  • Nov 30, 2015
    Marius
    I live in the Netherlands, but you can inform him and the technician that I am more than willing to drive to UK to get a set installed.
    Does the unit fits also in Roadster 2.0?
    �
  • Nov 30, 2015
    dpeilow
  • Nov 30, 2015
    Stefan T

    I asked him about that too
    If i could find some local that have EV experaces would he sell the parts to me
    So i can get them localy installed
    �
  • Dec 1, 2015
    dpeilow
    So they are now taking FULLY REFUNDABLE deposits for the project. They need a certain amount of commitment to make it go ahead.

    CHAdeMo charging for Tesla Roadster



    I guess having confirmed customers in California will also help.
    �
  • Dec 2, 2015
    dpeilow
    And just to add to that, closing date for the first round of deposits is February 29th 2016.

    They plan to test an alpha version next week.
    �
  • Dec 2, 2015
    Stefan T
    I shall rember that is the last date
    I think to a buy a JdeMO kit to my roadster
    I hope and wait the dollar price shall be better
    �
  • Dec 3, 2015
    Juanmax
    Me wants too :)
    In Germany please
    3k�+installation = DEAL
    �
  • Dec 5, 2015
    dpeilow
    I've just put my deposit down for this. I think QC Power needs to see more deposits to make this happen.

    They plan to demonstrate a CHAdeMO charge on a Roadster in the coming week.


    It looks a like an experienced Tesla technician is willing to do installs in the UK and nearby in Europe.
    �
  • Dec 6, 2015
    dpeilow
  • Dec 7, 2015
    Stefan T
    I think to do it quit soon
    �
  • Dec 7, 2015
    Stefan T
    Now have places the deposit now
    �
  • Dec 7, 2015
    dpeilow
    JdeMOzeeMapRoadster7Dec2015.jpg
    �
  • Dec 7, 2015
    augkuo
    nobody in the US??? I have a 2.0 but up in Northern California, maybe if Tony comes up we could arrange a group install ;)
    �
  • Dec 7, 2015
    gregd
    Seriously considering jumping in too. I'm 30mi east of Sacramento, also with a 2.0 (but it has some 2.5 CF pieces front and rear for mechanical consideration).

    Berkeley is just within my 1-way range, but getting home would require a full range charge after the install, so it better work!
    �
  • Dec 7, 2015
    dpeilow
    Message from Tony

    �
  • Dec 8, 2015
    m0rph
    Just waiting for the renewal of my contract, this should be ok before Feb 29th..
    �
  • Dec 8, 2015
    dpeilow
    Nikwest in Germany now put down a deposit.

    So that's Europe 5 - USA 0 :-D
    �
  • Dec 9, 2015
    dpeilow
    And so the testing starts...

    CVyrlxWVAAAvGUV.jpg
    �
  • Dec 9, 2015
    AEdennis
  • Dec 9, 2015
    samcarney
    Yes Dennis. The initial test was spectacular. The Roadster charged at 400+ volts and 125amps for nearly 30 minutes, with no errors or heat issues.
    For sure, more testing is needed but this was a great first effort with a Roadster 1.5.
    �
  • Dec 9, 2015
    AEdennis
    Back in SoCal for the Winter, I assume. Hope to see you on this month's OC meet. That's impressive. Hope you were there with @TonyWilliams for the test on your car... You supplying the 2.0 as well?
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  • Dec 9, 2015
    samcarney
    I was along for the initial test. Tony's "Quick Charge Power" team was very impressive.

    I am not supplying the 2.0 as it is in Michigan. Gigi and I plan to drive down for the Dec 20th meetup.
    Snowing in Michigan, it's good to be back in SoCal.
    �
  • Dec 9, 2015
    stopcrazypp
  • Dec 9, 2015
    dpeilow
    Fantastic to see this.
    �
  • Dec 9, 2015
    Stefan T
    Good see some progress
    �
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