Dec 26, 2014
Johan Do you have any kind of indication, even if just indirect, of it running warmer? Where does all that extra energy go???�
Dec 26, 2014
wk057 I haven't attempted to track down the "energy leak" beyond checking tire pressures and alignment (both of which were fine before, during, and after the trip I made).
I suppose I could do a few laps around the block in the P85D driving conservatively without climate control, then take some FLIR pics, then repeat with my fiance's P85... not sure how much info this could really provide though since there should be more heat in the front of the P85D anyway.�
Dec 26, 2014
Johan Well... Energy "wasted" i.e. not used to propel the car, must come out as heat somewhere. If a FLIR showed the rear motor as being substantially hotter as compared to the rear motor in a P85 (they should be very similar in set up) after an identical drive then it might suggest that in fact the front and rear motors are counteracting somehow?�
Dec 26, 2014
wk057 Ah, you mean when they are not working together appropriately? That is definitely a theory... and hopefully such a thing would be correctable in software. I'll see if I have time today to do some more P85 vs P85D comparison stuff. Perhaps I can get my fiance to drive around with me using both cars for a bit and take some notes.�
Dec 26, 2014
Johan Yes, that would be interesting! As you say the front of the P85D should obviously be warmer after a drive, but if things were correctly programmed (which they're not) the rear ought to be cooler. Now if the rear of the is as warmer, or warmer than in the P85 it would surely suggest there is some kind of magnetic field interaction or something going on.
However, thinking more about this theory of the magnetic fields of front and rear motor being out of sync thereby causing them to work against each other just doesn't make sense. The motors are AC asynchronous right? They don't have permanent magnets in them. Their parts only become magnetized as you feed them with AC power, right? (Electromagnetism). So why would it be hard to idle a motor. Just don't feed any power to it and it will just spin along with the wheels it's attached to (at whatever the gear ratio is) with almost no amount of "passive resistance". Or am I misunderstanding some basic concept here?�
Dec 26, 2014
wk057 They could be providing power against each other, ie one regen off of the other's power input... but this seems unlikely.�
Dec 26, 2014
randompersonx Induction motor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In this case, these motors are mechanically connected via the ground.�
Dec 26, 2014
wycolo The s85 is remarkably easy to roll in tow mode compared to an ICE car in neutral. No 90* hypoid complications to the differential for one thing. I'm always surprised.
Suggest comparing cars on a flat concrete section using a fish scale, at both static and constant speed. Tow car could be an MS with scale hooked to hatch catch and assistant riding the tailgate with clipboard.
Fwiw.
--�
Dec 26, 2014
AWDtsla You're making this incredibly complicated. There's an easier way to directly measure loss, this is done on ICE cars on dyno's by clever engineers. You measure how long it takes to spin down/how much power it takes. Same can be done for a Tesla.
The simplified version is on a flat surface you enter at a constant velocity and measure the exiting velocity, making sure not to use regen.
Even more simplified is an A/B comparison. It doesn't really matter how flat the road is. Do the same measurement for an S85/P85/P85D.�
Dec 26, 2014
RAW84 Amazing and disheartening seeing all the people eager to give Tesla a pass on this.
Elon boasted that the both the P85D and the 85D would see greater range. The 85D would see a greater increase. I shouldn't need to do PhD level research to decipher what he really means. I, like most people, understand that rated performance does not equal actual performance so I'm not holding him to task on the actual numbers, but I did expect the relative performance to be in line with what Elon said and from the reviews, it is not. The range increase was a major part in my decision to purchase the P85D.
Now if an update fixes that, I'm OK (even tho it is a faux pas to release it this way), but they def need to fix it and no one should be giving them a pass for it.�
Dec 26, 2014
403portside 110% agree. I'm very frustrated with the lack of explanation from Tesla as to why the numbers have evolved this way, without any communication to owners. I've sent a note to Jerome to see what he says. Either say, "we were wrong" or explain why the software will get us close to a P85 but not better, as they originally claimed when they were all too happy to take our money.�
Dec 26, 2014
wk057 I did a cruise @ 65 MPH test over 43 miles of interstate this evening. Results were not promising.
P85D First long trip, range data, etc... - Page 7
Firmware v6.0 (2.0.81)�
Dec 26, 2014
403portside Would highly encourage you to send this data to Tesla if you haven't already.�
Dec 26, 2014
mspohr Twisted shorts over random anecdotes.
Just relax and let the pros sort it out.�
Dec 26, 2014
403portside FunnyI haven't seen one anecdote that matches what Tesla claimed. Have seen several that sound like the one above.
�
Dec 26, 2014
AWDtsla Who's giving them a pass? It's frickin Christmas. Let the engineers get in the office and take care of it. The reality is people are ready to get outraged at anything. Our entire "news" and "blog" sectors rely on it.�
Dec 27, 2014
lolachampcar
Hinder
I knew I liked you�
Dec 27, 2014
RAW84 half this thread is people trying to explain how Tesla didn't actually claim it would get longer range. At least one person chided the consumer and suggested he should've gotten the 85D if he was concerned about range.�
Dec 27, 2014
Krugerrand And it is from their perspective that Tesla didn't claim it. Frustrating isn't it that you can have five people in a room and each one will hear something different from the speaker.
Are you honestly going to say that the vast majority of people bought the P85D for added mileage? Nobody even knew, let alone sniffed a hint, that AWD might add efficiency. NOBODY. People were waiting for AWD because they felt they needed AWD for weather conditions where they live. A small segment of 'performance buyers' bought it for insane mode. Even fewer bought it based solely on added efficiency, which apparently is coming.�
Dec 27, 2014
Hmbldr1 Well said Raw84. I pick up my P85D in 6 hours. Only because Elon committed to fixing it with an update. He better fulfill his representation or we might all be getting free cars!
�
Dec 27, 2014
dsm363 Free cars. Really?
Congrats on the delivery though. It's going to be an amazing car even if it is a few percent less efficient than the P85.�
Dec 27, 2014
Krugerrand Not free, but I do believe they could return their cars and get their money (mostly) back.�
Dec 27, 2014
scottf200 And then they should be put on a list forever. I've read some stunning comments overall these issues in the past many months (car lowering as classic example while they figured out a solution).
�
Dec 27, 2014
RAW84 There's no one reason why people chose to buy this car. That whole line of questioning is irrelevant. Fact is, Elon made a claim, and some people (including me and others in here) factored that into their decision to purchase.
If it didn't factor into your decision, that's fine but don't dismiss the gripes of others. It's a legitimate gripe.
The next gen seats are not a huge deal for me (I paid for them, so I do expect to get them eventually), but while I won't be vocally complaining about it, I won't dismiss the gripes of others for whom the upgraded seats are an issue.
And Elon definitely claimed increased range. There's no doubt about it. Every news story reported it after the launch event and even on here it was touted as a selling point. It wasn't until later that people began questioning it and Tesla began changing numbers on the website.�
Dec 27, 2014
darthy001 +1 to RAW84
I just dont see why people feel the need to belittle other peoples reasoning for buying a 130k car just because they dont agree with range playing a part in such a decision. Of course most people know that AWD normally means less range, but when the CEO stands on a stage boasting about a major enginiering-feat resulting in the opposite are we supposed not to believe him? Are we not supposed to believe the numbers in the sales material?
Is it really that hard to understand that people are mad and/or disappointed that for the time being there is a real risk they have been taken for fools?�
Dec 27, 2014
green1 Happiness guarantee allows you to return the car if you aren't satisfied in the first 3 months. You are however "put on a list" and can't "immediately" reorder. I'm not sure what the cool-down period is before you're allowed to order again.�
Dec 27, 2014
Andyw2100 I haven't been complaining much about the range issue, but it most certainly is an issue that is of great concern to me and my wife. As such, it may be of interest to you, Krugerrand, as to how we came to our decision to purchase the P85D, because you are both right and wrong in what you wrote above, at least in how it relates to us.
I knew almost nothing about Tesla before the D announcement. I certainly wasn't even thinking about purchasing a Tesla. I've also never owned any kind of real sports car. The car I'll still be driving some of the time, that the P85D is "replacing" is a 2004 Acura TL. My wife drives a Subaru Forester. She'll also be driving the P85D, on a regular 100-mile round trip to work.
Before the D announcement in October we had half-heartedly looked into electric vehicles a little bit. I liked the Honda Accord plug-in. In my mind, that was probably the front-runner. And when I say "looked into" I mean "researched online." I doubt we had spent more than an hour on it. It wasn't a serious endeavor.
I also had known for years that the next new vehicle I bought would have to be all wheel drive. Shortly after buying the 2004 Acura I bought a house with a long, steep driveway. In the climate I live in, coupled with my driveway, I need AWD.
I had heard rumors of what was to be announced at the D announcement, and watched some of it live (I believe--I remember trying to find a live stream), and then read more and watched more the next day. I was really interested, but not in a "I might buy this" kind of way. It was just a really cool car that I wasn't ever going to have.
The thing was that I became kind of obsessed with the idea of having one, and kept reading more and watching more. The autopilot stuff blew me away! I don't know how it happened, but at some point I decided that I actually wanted to own one of these things. Even more crazy was that I somehow convinced my wife that we should buy a Model S. I'm really still not sure how I pulled that off, but I did.
So at that point we're buying a model S, and it's definitely going to be a D. Fine.
Part of me--a big part--wanted to have the top of the line. The best of everything. Of course I was looking at the P85D. I saw that it had --SLIGHTLY-- less range than the non-P version, but I decided that wasn't a big enough issue for me to not get the top of the line car. I knew I didn't in any conceivable way need 0-60, 3.2 acceleration, but I had seen it and now I wanted it. But then came the issue with the wheels. I had read about the 21 inch wheels, the issues those caused with going through tires quickly, the issues with damaging the wheels on the rough roads, and I made the practical decision that we needed to have 19 inch wheels on our Model S. I got in touch with Tesla to ask if they'd be offering a 19 inch wheel option on the P85D. I was told they would not be. I made the difficult decision to go with the S85D. I told myself it's the only sensible thing to do. The increased range wasn't even a factor at that point. To be honest, neither was the lower cost. It was all about the wheels.
Configuring cars on the site, which I had been doing over and over and over again--it's a good thing Tesla doesn't charge for that--I had also realized I wanted the Next Generation Seats, in grey. They were not available yet on the S85D. It was pretty clear to me, though, that it was probably only a matter of time before the seats would be available, and we were not in any rush to order, since the S85D wasn't going to be available for a while anyway, so we decided to wait and see what happened.
One morning I woke up and read on this forum that the P85D was suddenly available for ordering with 19 inch wheels, and with grey Next Generation seats! I called my wife at work, and we wound up ordering the car that morning! And again, the slight difference in range between the models was not a factor.
Like everyone else here, I am hopeful that the software update Musk tweeted about will, in fact, make the range difference between the P85D and the S85D the slight difference that was initially shown on the website. But if it doesn't, and if the range difference winds up being very significant, then it really will be an issue for us, as we really may have made a different decision. We were all set to go with the S85D if we had to just because of the wheels. We certainly would have done so for a major difference in range.
Does that make sense?�
Dec 27, 2014
breser That only applies to the lease. We have reason to believe that Tesla will do something like the happiness guarantee for a purchase (Elon's "The House Always Wins Blog"). The happiness guarantee on the lease only says that you can't lease again not order. I'm of the opinion that I pretty much got treated like a happiness guarantee with my S85 and have reordered an 85D. So I believe the limitation on the lease is just that you can't return a lease and re-lease.�
Dec 27, 2014
gg_got_a_tesla I can commiserate with those who did expect higher range let alone not losing any from the 265 mark. Personally, I would not miss the missing 23 miles (or 15 miles with the 19" wheels) with the P85D anytime soon and the software update to remedy this will eventually be here anyway. I had done several roadtrips in my erstwhile S60 so can easily manage.
As many of you on these forums know, I've been around a while and hang on anything Tesla. And, had an order in for an S85 in early September before the D announcement. Then, briefly an order for an S85D before going all in. The distinct takeaway from the D event, Elon's speech and the announcements/web page updates after was indeed that the Ds will have (atleast slightly) higher range, period. And, that the P85D would have marginally less range than the S85D but, that they would both beat their non-D counterparts for sure and that that was a first with any AWD/non-AWD comparisons for any given car.
Anyway, long story short, Tesla/Elon did miss a trick here - with not having the right firmware ready at launch and making it seem (in my opinion, surely unintentionally) not entirely what it is and even what it is going to be. The software update will hopefully calm some nerves. I'm still a very happy camper.�
Dec 27, 2014
Krugerrand First, I didn't say there was only one reason people chose to buy the car, nor did I say it wasn't a legitimate gripe. So, thanks for proving my point.�
Dec 27, 2014
wk057 I'm not 100% sure I would not have gotten the P85D if it had said "200 mile range" on the website for example... but I don't know if I would have traded my P85 in that case. I was under the impression I was basically upgrading on all fronts: power, range, tech. Turns out I now have more power, a good 25% less real world range, and tech that I bought and paid for that does virtually nothing yet (autopilot).
The range issue is definitely a factor. My ~572 mile drive on Tuesday took at least an hour longer than expected due to longer charges needed. With my P85 I could make that trip with a 5% rated miles buffer between stops. With the P85D, not so much.
I've been thinking a bit about it and I'm actually curious if Tesla would let me out of the P85 trade-in and sell me back the car at a reasonable price. It is still on my app and My Tesla dashboard... and still sitting at the Devon, PA service center exactly where I parked it so far. I like the P85D. It's pretty awesome. But if this efficiency stuff isn't solved soon (as in, within the next couple of weeks), I'll prefer something with a longer range for my out of town trips, probably, and my fiance's P85 isn't going to always be available for such trips. And it may push me towards reselling the P85D out of practicality, since I really don't need three Model S at my house...
I hope they get it right, and soon, because I really am feeling a bit duped.�
Dec 27, 2014
RAW84 *sigh*
I'm done.
- - - Updated - - -
Makes perfect sense to me. I was wavering between the 85D and the P85D myself. The wait (and implications of said wait) for the 85D is the biggest factor that steered me towards the P85D�
Dec 27, 2014
jweinstein Do we have any indication on the ETA of the range increasing update? Has anyone inquired with TM?�
Dec 27, 2014
Johan ~2 weeks? (Tesla weeks that is, which could mean anytime).�
Dec 27, 2014
Andyw2100 That 2 weeks is just a complete guess, though, right Johan? We haven't seen or heard any ETA from Tesla officially, unoffically, or otherwise, right?
We have been hearing lots of rumors about the Adaptive Cruise Control software update, but I don't think other than confirmation that it will come eventually, we've heard anything about the one Musk made reference to.�
Dec 27, 2014
Johan Yes it's a guess, and a comment as to the fact that Tesla are extremely poor at giving time guidance.�
Dec 27, 2014
Andyw2100 OK. Just wanted to clear that up, as jweinstein was asking if we had any INDICATION of when it was coming, which I took to mean as a request for something that someone had actually heard from or seen put out officially by Tesla.
Two weeks Tesla time is as good a guess as any.�
Dec 27, 2014
gg_got_a_tesla I'm guessing the update will come by February right around the first S85D deliveries. Otherwise, there may be a lot more confused and potentially irate new D owners.�
Dec 27, 2014
rcc Anyone who buys the first of anything should expect bugs. Just be glad the bugs are in the software and can be fixed by OTA updates.
One big thing about software - you don't know when it'll be done until it's actually done. And most of Tesla's features are either software-based or have a huge software component.
So I wouldn't expect Tesla's time guidance to get significantly better anytime soon. Or ever. Unless they decide to move to a more conservative model where they only do major upgrades at set times per year. Personally, I'd rather they not go there but that's just me.�
Dec 27, 2014
dsm363 I don't believe the P85D has 25% less real world range. Anyone have numbers to back that up?�
Dec 27, 2014
darthy001 Wk057 and MarcG has several threads on this. With wk057 coming directly from a P85. Several others who have upgraded have also written about not having a chance to reach the same numbers as their previous cars.
Personally I wanted to believe their numbers where off, but so far everyone has written about similar numbers way higher than RWD cars. There was one user who got within 30wh of the numbers from his old car, but that is the best I've seem so far and in perfect conditions in Florida.�
Dec 27, 2014
lolachampcar rcc,
This is not a bug issue. My take from Elon's tweet is it was a decision to ship something that was not in keeping with initial expectations and a subsequent tweet indicating a correction was coming.
As for actual change in range, the only way for me to form an opinion is to borrow a PD and drive several known routs for which I have developed very repeatable consumption numbers for both my P+ and the P before that. I am planning on doing just this before my car goes into production.�
Dec 27, 2014
NOLA_Mike I can add my datapoint to this discussion - take it for what it's worth.
As a P85+ owner for 1.5 years and 15,000 miles I have a very good handle on what to expect in the way of range in varying weather conditions. I had become very comfortable estimating range and with specifically what I needed to do to improve it.
I can tell you that my first trip in my P85D yesterday from Houston to New Orleans made me nervous in a way I haven't been since my earliest days of P85+ ownership. I would not doubt that a 25% reduction in range is a good estimate compared to my P85+. If it would not have been for this forum and those that took delivery before me reporting here I might have blindly headed out just assuming everything would be as it was in the P85+.
I made the leg from Lake Charles, LA to home - 195 miles - in the P85D yesterday starting out with a displayed Rated Range of 249 miles. I had 13 rated miles remaining when I arrived home. No adverse weather, temperatures in the mid 60s and no elevation changes. I traveled 60 MPH for most of the trip (10 MPH under the speed limit). Had I been in my P85+ (as I've made the trip numerous times before) in those conditions I would have used less Rated Miles than Actual Miles traveled.
I trust Tesla will make this right with a firmware update in the near future.
Mike�
Dec 27, 2014
lolachampcar The response I got from Tesla indicated I should expect roughly an 8% reduction in range with the PD when compared to the P+ (both on 21s).�
Dec 27, 2014
Andyw2100 What does this mean? An 8% reduction currently, before this software update that Musk tweeted about? Or an 8% reduction --AFTER-- the software update that Musk said would get them close?�
Dec 27, 2014
lolachampcar "[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]The only range test for Dual Motor Model S that has been confirmed by the EPA is for a P85D equipped with 21" wheels and summer tires. With this configuration, the EPA tested 242 miles."[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]There was no indication as to what firmware was being used so I have no way of knowing if it was using the firmware that is being shipped or the one that is on its way. My solution to the problem is four posts up as I really do not know what it means. All I can do is understand what it is that I am buying if take delivery in three weeks.[/FONT]�
Dec 27, 2014
NOLA_Mike A little more perspective on my trip this week - at 60 MPH with no wind, moderate temperatures I would have consumed between 280-290 Whr/mile. The new P85D was consuming 350-360 WHr/mile. Easily 21%+ more consumption. I'll give you it was one trip and therefore just one datapoint but certainly well more than 8%.
Mike�
Dec 27, 2014
dennis This looks a little suspect to me, like it came from sales or marketing. First, it says "has been confirmed by the EPA", but the Tesla website says " Range shown for 85D and P85D is estimated, pending EPA confirmation". Second. it says "the EPA tested 242 miles" but we know that the manufacturers do the testing and submit the results to the EPA. The EPA only tests a small percentage of cars - I think I read 15% on the EPA site. So I think his 8% is just a (265-242)/265 = 8.6 % truncated to 8%.�
Dec 27, 2014
lolachampcar Actually, I generated the roughly 8% number myself using that exact method.
As for the verbiage, I agree that it is suspicious which is why I want to do my own test to see if I can live with the range Tesla is currently delivering.�
Dec 27, 2014
wk057 Did some more driving today. I'm holding firm on my statement of 25% range reduction. 900 miles on the P85D now.�
Dec 27, 2014
dennis Did anyone else notice that the 2 posts about increasing the range for the P85D have been removed from Elon's Twitter feed? I tried linking from the first post on this thread. Twitter now says those pages don't exist:
Also, if you go to his Twitter feed you see his recent tweets about battery swap, Roadster upgrade and oatmeal raisin cookies, but not the ones on the P85D.
Elon Musk on Twitter:
I wonder what this means? All conspiracy theorists please step up. :wink:�
Dec 27, 2014
403portside Wow. In the twitter-verse that is borderline criminal. Just when I thought tesla or elon couldn't get any more dodgy on this issue.�
Dec 27, 2014
wk057 Yeah, that does not seem like a good thing. Not like removing it will remove the knowledge of it anyway. I'm pretty surprised that he would say something then pull back on it if it were valid.
At this point I'm afraid the P85D may very well be stuck with crap range... and if that's the case, I'm going to be seeking a resolution.
On a side note, I haven't heard back from Jerome or ownership@ in response to my emails about the issue... not that I expected one before early next week anyway.
Edit: This seems like it needed some additional exposure, so I started an Elon Musk deletes twitter posts about P85D/85D efficiency increases thread�
Dec 27, 2014
403portside So, I just recalled that I tweeted to both Ricardo and Elon earlier today and asked them to explain the discrepancy between getting range 'near' the P85 vs exceeding the P85 as originally marketed. I wonder if that played a part? Perhaps the removal means they do plan to 'exceed' or perhaps that's wishful thinking on my part. I have to think they are savvy enough to understand what I means to delete a tweet.�
Dec 27, 2014
Andyw2100 The bit that keeps me optimistic in all this is the fact the ON THE STICKERS THAT CAME WITH OUR P85Ds Tesla is showing an EPA Highway rating HIGHER than the P85.
You can say whatever you want about what we should or should not have inferred from the D announcement or from the numbers Tesla had on their website at any point in time. But the bottom line is that Tesla put EPA test figures on our cars' stickers that demonstrate a higher highway MPGe than the P85. That has to mean something.�
Dec 27, 2014
wk057 Yeah, definitely not seeing those numbers in real world right now.�
Dec 27, 2014
dennis I agree with that sentiment. It is clear that the current software in the delivered P85D's couldn't possibly be the same as what Tesla used to conduct the EPA tests.�
Dec 27, 2014
Andyw2100 Oh, I know.
I have 100% confidence in the numbers you have been reporting, and the numbers others here have been reporting. There are plenty of people here, you among them, who have enough experience driving the P85s to be able to say with certainty that there is a huge range difference in the P85Ds. I was just saying that I'm optimistic, based on the number on the sticker, that deleted tweet or not, something has to change for the good.�
Dec 27, 2014
EarlyAdopter I agree, we are definitely not seeing the increased highway mileage shown on the EPA sticker.
That said, for all this talk of 25% drops, I say - show me the exact same conditions, exact same route. Otherwise, it's complete conjecture.
When I did a back-to-back test, same day, same route with my P85 and P85D, both on 21"s, I saw a 6% drop.
That data is here.
Interestingly enough, that's exactly the difference shown by both cars on a full charge - 265 rated miles vs 250 rated miles.�
Dec 27, 2014
wk057 No offense, but your data is 15 miles. I have 900 in on the P85D already on routes I've taken many many times in the P85. I know pretty much exactly how the P85 would do on these routes, and it is way better than the P85D. Closer to 25% than 6% for sure.
But to put it to rest I have two dash cams and two GoPro's ready to go for the next clear day that my fiance is free for a bit to do a controlled run on the same round trip at the same time in her P85. GoPros will be positioned to see both screens.�
Dec 27, 2014
dennis I don't see the point of getting our knickers tied in a knot over this issue. The CEO has already said that the software that will enable comparable range is not in the hands of the current owners of P85D's.�
Dec 27, 2014
EarlyAdopter No offense taken. It's just that it's the only controlled data I've seen so far. By all means, please show me more!�
Dec 28, 2014
randompersonx In fairness. The CEO said it, and then un-said it [deleted the tweets].
I am stunned at this point. I was asking myself last night if all of the information that was available up to that point had been made available on the launch date if I would have ordered (seats, range, etc) -- and I probably would have.
With the pulling of that tweet, I honestly would not be placing an order today. And it's a shame, because the car is lots of fun to drive.�
Dec 28, 2014
yak-55 I'm trying to determine what to make of the retracted/deleted tweet as well. I'm scheduled for a P85D delivery in two days, and frankly, with now apparently no promise
of range improvement for the P85Ds on the road from Tesla, I'm thinking about canceling. With a reasonable belief that a future s/w fix is coming, I'd take delivery eagerly,
but without even a vague "due bill" item like "Next Gen seats to be delivered as soon as practical" I have serious doubts.
What does it all mean ?? Is a fix coming or have they learned more than s/w will need to change ??�
Dec 28, 2014
dennis IMO the most likely reason for pulling the tweets is that they are "forward looking statements" in SEC parlance and were only disseminated on Elon's Twitter feed. They also pulled the one about the S eventually getting a longer range battery. His recent forward looking statements that are left on Twitter (Roadster upgrade, battery swap beta) have corresponding blog posts on the official TM site.
The reason I'm confident that we will [eventually] get improved P85D range over what owners are currently seeing is that Tesla submitted P85D numbers to the EPA that show better highway MPGe than the S85. Those tests are rigorously defined and must be performed on a dynamometer. The open question is why Tesla was not able to ship that firmware with the production cars and how long it will take before it is released.�
Dec 28, 2014
xy46 I take delivery of my P85D in 2 days as well, and I am of the same opinion as you are. Maybe I am just naive - but I have to believe that a fix will be forthcoming. I have actually been wondering lately if the software update that will solve this range problem might actually be bundled and released at the same time as the autopilot software? The reason for thinking this is that during the D event, the demo cars had functional autopilot software and NORMAL driving mode; therefore it is possible that this was the same "test" version of the software that was used for the EPA testing? If so, then in my mind it's not a huge jump to think that the updates might get released together.
In the end, this is all conjecture on my part, and the go/no go decision is a personal choice. But as someone new to the Tesla family, I am going to make a leap of faith and go for it. By everything I can tell, it's still an awesome car, and there will always be a reason to wait.�
Dec 28, 2014
darthy001 @xy46 did you actually see the normal-mode on the same screen as Insane-mode? I cannot recall seeing any pictures of that.�
Dec 29, 2014
WarpedOne My bet is that those HW 94mpg were obtained in "normal mode" the is not available in current FW.
My second bet is about why it is absent.
Somebody (from tesla) somewhere said they spent considerable amount of work on reducing vibrations generated by both motors working together. I'd guess this work is still not complete i.e. they are still improving normal mode to not produce noise, vibrations, jerks etc. Or to put it simply - normal mode is not refined enough yet for a $120k car.
It might not be simple to cut the power from a motor or enable power without inducing a jerk to the car. This could be a big bigger problem when dis/enabling is going on all the time while driving.
a) normal mode: cut off the power from motor when the other has considerable higher efficiency at given speed and power demand
b) sport mode: both motors work all the time, cap the total power going out of the battery at p85 level
c) insane mode: both motors work all the time, allow both inverters to draw their max power�
Dec 29, 2014
ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well, he then untweeted that and other tweets that expressed certainty about future stuff.
Tesla Unfinished Task List:
CHAdeMO adapter
Dual Motor
Driver Assistance/AutoPilot
Model X
Tesla has a bit of a record ...�
Dec 29, 2014
xy46 I thought I had previously seen a screen shot of the NORMAL/SPORT/INSANE mode selector, but after considerable searching of the web, I can't find anything. My statement was really from the combination of what was said and shown at the D Event; specifically, Elon's quotes about their being a NORMAL mode and of course the video demonstrations showing the functioning auto-pilot.�
Dec 29, 2014
Vger As has been pointed out, hammering on this will only encourage Tesla to stop talking about anything that is planned, in development, or slated for improvement. Is that what we really want?
No one in the history of humankind has ever done what Tesla has done, starting from zero in 10 years, and enduring the worst recession since the depression. All that while the CEO was also moonlighting as the first successful private rocket company CEO in history.
Criticism and holding Tesla feet to the warm glow of the fire is one thing, but expecting perfection from an incredibly bold collection of human beings is quite another.�
Dec 29, 2014
EarlyAdopter I know, it's easy to focus on these things but it's also worth noting what Tesla has finished:
An electric sedan that can go over 200 miles
DC rapid chargers that can charge at 120kW
AWD in an electric car
5 star car test ratings in every category
Over-the-air updates
To me at least, the unfinished list seems so insignificant in comparison. I want those things, don't get me wrong, and I'd love more clarity on what's up with them, but I can wait.
I have faith in Tesla given the record of what they have accomplished.�
Dec 29, 2014
scaesare I largely agree with this.
While certainly no person or organization is perfect, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt more to those who demonstrate a desire to do the right thing. In my opinion Tesla has done that on a number of occasions.
They give indication of wanting to work along with customers, and "clue them in" on exciting developments in-process. While communication could use some improvement in some areas, remind yourself you get NO SUCH COMMUNICATION from the folks in charge of other like companies.
Thus, if we'd like change, I believe that constructive dialog rather than merciless hammering[1] is the best way to effect said change without making this all so much of a headache for Tesla that they just stop sharing...
[1] aimed at no one in particular, but at a common sentiment in general�
Dec 29, 2014
Andyw2100 I agree that we should not be "hammering" Tesla too much, and that we should, to some extent, trust that they plan to do the right thing. I know I do.
That being said, I want to point out that there is a difference between complaining about dates they don't meet for updates, or things they tell us are coming and then they don't deliver on and features that they sell cars based on that are then not in those cars at time of delivery. I completely agree that if we continue to brow beat Tesla every time they miss a date for some new feature, or change their plans about something new that they announced that we all wanted they may stop communicating their plans concerning these things. But that's not what most of this discussion is about. This is something entirely different. This is Tesla selling us cars that were to have a given range and when the cars don't have this range at delivery, Tesla not providing an explanation. So in my opinion, for whatever that may be worth, I feel like in this situation some brow beating and feet-to-the-fire-holding is appropriate. Not necessarily demanding that the cars do something they may not yet be able to do, but rather just to get information on what the plans are. We deserve at least that.�
Dec 29, 2014
403portside Are the people on this thread who think we are 'hammering' Tesla too hard for merely asking them to deliver a specific feature that they marketed to us when we placed orders, also people who have actually placed P85D orders? Or just folks sitting on the sidelines?
I'd be curious to hear from people who have actually ordered a P85D and would not care at all if Tesla didn't come close to the efficiency numbers they claimed when they took thousands of orders. I bet it's few and far between.�
Dec 29, 2014
randompersonx
So after a lot of thinking ... I agree with a lot of what has been said on the last few posts.
Tesla has a list of unfinished promises (I am listing only the ones I personally care about): P85D Range, P85D Next Gen seats, Chademo, Autopilot (Though this one was specifically stated that there would be a multiple month delay at time of order).
On the other hand, the P85D I have taken delivery of is quite an amazing car:
* It has the best stock stereo of any car I have ever owned, all of which have had the upgraded stereos, including Porsche Panamera, Porsche 911, BMW M3. There were not official changes here, but I know that the P85+ I test drove did not sound this good.
* The acceleration is well above Porsche Panamera Turbo S.
* The fit and finish is MOSTLY as good as a Porsche now -- some key things are missing (No cubbies for storage in the doors or armrest, no center console, terrible cupholder design), and there are some perplexing deficiencies in QA (I had overspray on my car -- I fixed this myself, as well as a crease in my front bumper and glue stains on my dash -- these two Tesla promised to fix). I am almost certain the damage to the front bumper occurred from shipping, and I am still amazed that Tesla ships $130k cars on open containers without even wrapping most of them the way they do.
* The car is sexy. I've already generated a crowd a few times by merely parking my car. (Red/Grey 21's, red brakes, carbon spoiler -- definitely the most attention grabbing config).
* Other than the defects noted above, the paint is stunning -- better than the red paint currently offered by Porsche.
So, am I annoyed about the range -- yes! Did Tesla screw up by promising 285 miles @ 65mph (which is impossible) and 242 miles EPA (which also seems impossible even at 65mph, forget mixed driving), and not delivering it with the standard firmware? YES!
I hope they fix it, and I am really annoyed that Tesla would shoot themselves in the foot by making it so easy for their detractors to criticize them -- but for me, I am ultimately very happy I took delivery -- the car is well worth the $135k price tag.
I still maintain that Tesla's biggest problem is communication, and "little things". These "little things" tend to be amplified hugely by the communication problems, and turn them into big things. The range issue is a "medium sized thing", and becomes amplified to a huge issue -- again because of communication.
The correct solution is not to reduce communication, but to stop miscommunication -- In this particular instance, Tesla would have been much better served to say there was a pending "normal" mode which would have improved range, but that it may take (weeks? months?) to be released. For some people, the range issue is going to make the car unusable. For me, it's a (fairly large) inconvenience, but the positives outweigh the negatives.
I, for one, am going to try and put some conscious effort into being as positive as I can be in future posts about this issue.�
Dec 29, 2014
403portside Agree, well said. Am trying to stick to this same outlook. I think the number of people on here that think we are crazy for being disappointed in one aspect of Tesla's marketing/communication is just frustrating though . I love Tesla, believe in the product, but have never committed to $250K of any company's product in a period of 12 months, and so in that context have a high bar for them delivering what they say or AT LEAST communicating effectively. Their communication lately has been a goat rodeo.
Ok, deep breath, ready for delivery on Wed AM�
Dec 29, 2014
scottf200 A little tongue in cheek perspective tho...
Why don't you just wait until they fix it and not take delivery. Until then you can complain to every reporting that will listen to you to see if you can generate some bad press until you are satisfied.
Re: $250K of any company's product in a period of 12 months
Be sure to include this in your interview with all the reporters so they can print it and get some sympathy from the readers.
And given those tongue in cheek comments I am thankful for the 85D/P85D early adopters (even if they wait a month or two for it to be perfect) to get much of this worked out for the Model X I'm in queue for.�
Dec 29, 2014
FatSal I remember reading/hearing the same thing and I really think the above is correct. I've been driving a P85D since 12/24 and comparing it to my P85. When driving around town, there does appear to be a slight vibration in the steering wheel that to me feels like the two motors are fighting each other (i.e. hurting efficiency). Almost like something is slightly out of sync. It doesn't happen at all speeds, but when going from 0 to about 40 at a leisurely pace, I feel it.
They have made incredible improvements to the fit, finish and comfort since my car was made (vin 7473). I'm sure they will get this right.�
Dec 29, 2014
ItsNotAboutTheMoney I should have emphasized the key word of my post:
That's the key problem: when you promise stuff, and then sell products based on those promises you have a legal problem. And for a car like the P85D, where you are claiming efficiency and not delivering it, the EPA is liable to get very, very upset and fine you lots of money.
The early salesmanship spiel from Elon Musk to get people to part with money, followed by a lack of interim communication as they struggle to deliver a real product is getting old. Customers really need to stop giving Tesla the benefit of the doubt and instead simply treat things as either not existing or existing. They have cash reserves. There is no CHAdeMO adapter, there is no AutoPilot and no driver assistance of value, there is no Model X and the P85D is significantly less efficient than the P85 was; they're in beta, in development, in maybe beta, and in development.�
Dec 29, 2014
scaesare Seeing as you quoted the word I used in my post, I'll answer:
I don't have a P85D. I bought a S85 19+ months ago. It didn't meet my expectations in a couple of significant ways, including one feature (fog lights) for which I felt there was an expectation communicated by Tesla that I felt strongly about.
I penned a constructive open letter to Elon/Tesla asking them to hear my concerns, and offering a couple of suggestions for remediation I felt would be acceptable. I posted it here & at telsamotors.com, asking other owners who were in the same situation to voice support if they cared to do so. A significant number did.
I got a positive response back from Elon outlining a plan to address the concern, and he even solicited feedback to see if it might be acceptable. It still involved waiting, but in the end we secured a retroactive installation of a superior item (redesigned Gen 2 fog lights) for all affected.
Now with 10K+ cars a month being shipped, I suspect the days of direct responses from Elon may be harder to come by... but I have had other dialog with ownership, the supercharger team, and folks from the service center that make it clear that corporate HQ is watching.
Try sugar before vinegar. I'd like to encourage more open dialog from Tesla, not less... Yes, help them to recognize there's missed expectation from some of their communication... but give them some time to respond and try and make it right.
And be sure to be just as vocal about the positive "unexpected" items (upgraded top speed... better torque curve for higher RPM acceleration, free internet access for 4 years, upgraded warranty, etc...) you get as you are about the negatives...�
Dec 29, 2014
wk057 Unfortunately, human beings always tend to be more vocal about the negatives than the positives. I don't think there are many exceptions to this rule.
I've written about some of the positives, and even put up a few launch videos showing the awesome acceleration. However, the range issue is more important than this, since it affects the vehicle entirely and in everyday use.
I took my P85D out today, drove ~30 miles... 540 Wh/mi! I got on it one time at a light, though. (One of those two lanes on one side that merge into one on the other and someone always feels the need to one-up everyone in the main lane when the light turns... didn't allow that to happen and I defended the honor of everyone in the main lane from some fool by not allowing him to win this time... lol) Aside from that should have been a pretty uneventful drive. One I've done many times where in my P85 I probably would have seen mid 300s at worst Wh/mi.
Unfortunately it got a bit wet out and I wont be doing my side-by-side vs the P85 today... but I'll try tomorrow, or if it clears up today.�
Dec 29, 2014
AmpedRealtor Yes, that is what I would like. The alternative is confusion and distrust, as you can see. Giving some buyer autopilot and others not, who took delivery at the same time, angers customers and makes them dislike your brand. So does saying that the P85D can go 285 miles, then change it later to 242 miles, then change it again to 250 miles. Then you state the top speed is 155 MPH, and after undoubtedly hundreds or maybe thousands of orders, Tesla adds an asterisk and footnote that the car is software limited to 130 MPH and that it will go faster after a forthcoming software update. Although not intended as such, it feels shady.
That's not something customers forget easily or quickly. These are self inflicted wounds.
You can do the same without shooting your mouth off and prematurely launching products.
The illusion of perfection is easier to achieve when you play your cards closer to your vest. Apple has found tremendous success in being secretive.�
Dec 29, 2014
jerry33 Apple also gives a 30 day period where you can return the product. That covers those who purchase shortly before the new model came on sale. I doubt Tesla (or anyone else) could afford to do that with cars.�
Dec 29, 2014
Krugerrand So what are your plans? Are you taking a wait and see approach? Are you actively bugging select members of Tesla to get an answer? Are you hiring a lawyer?
We've heard about your concerns/disappointments/label them however, but I don't think we've heard how you plan on being compensated/made whole as a consumer.�
Dec 29, 2014
wk057 As I have stated elsewhere, I'm presently waiting, along with having sent messages to multiple people at Tesla expressing my concerns. I'm realistic and will give them some time to sort out the issue, and I think that is more than fair. But as I've also stated, my patience do have limits.
If a reasonable solution is not made in a timely matter, I will deal with it at that time. I'd much prefer to come to a resolution with Tesla directly rather than hiring legal counsel. But one thing is for sure, the car as it sits with the efficiency it achieves is not acceptable and it either will be corrected or I will be compensated in some way for the difference in spec.
For now, I'm going to continue gathering data to use in my defense if needed, and to share with the folks here. I've moved my efforts on that front to a new thread: P85D vs. P85 Efficiency Testing�
Dec 29, 2014
skilly a cooling off period (what you are referring to) is typically not available - in California they don't exist.
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Sorry but what publicly is TM saying about anything significant that would be missing out on by being vocal? I think their communication is pretty mixed in terms of its relevance and in fact, this issue isn't about a color change or fog light changes - its about the overall usability of the car. That to me, should be right before it hits the streets. Hell, they held the P85D back over seats (and horribly managed that communication), yet overlook this fundamental range issue? Sorry - I don't buy that approach at all. This is a two way street...not a one way with hope as a strategy.�
Dec 30, 2014
breser The seats were certainly an issue but we have good reason to believe they were not the only issue. Jerome's email implies as much in its wording. It's possible one of the hold ups is this very range issue and they decided they could fix it later. But if that's the case they should have told owners that before they took delivery.�
Dec 30, 2014
toto_48313 Gas mileage: Fuel Proof - Marketplace - CBC News
Watch this, and you will see that ICE car manufacturer are even worth than Tesla on efficiency annoncement.
And without being able to expect any software update vs Tesla that annonce that an update will improve it.�
Dec 30, 2014
NigelM If a product doesn't perform as advertised it's hardly the consumer's responsibility to come up with a corrective plan.�
Dec 30, 2014
Krugerrand Not arguing that, but is one simply going to sit at home, pound on their keyboard for days, waiting for the company to show up at their door with a new product or refund?�
Dec 30, 2014
AWDtsla Well you guys keep bickering for couple weeks more, that is exactly what will happen in this case.�
Dec 30, 2014
mspohr Basic customer service. Ask what they want to fix the problem. You have been quite vocal in your complaints but I'm still not sure what could be done other than the upcoming software update. What do you want? Perhaps a personal visit with a massage? Or perhaps have some software engineers serve you tea?�
Dec 30, 2014
dennis The P85D still goes 285 miles: at a constant 65 mph as originally stated. And the distinction between 242 and 250 was made as well: 21" wheels vs. 19" wheels. If you only focus on the number, and not the words around it, you do so at your own risk. AFAIK, the only number that has changed is the P85D EPA rating of 253 miles vs. 250 previously stated. That was announced today in JB's blog post, which also reconfirmed the 285 mile rating at a constant 65 mph.
Maybe the issue is that Tesla gives us too much information, so buyers get confused. The engineering mentality of the company shines through once again. Personally, I wouldn't have it any other way.�
Dec 30, 2014
AlMc A blog has been set up by a TM forum member documenting his winter cross country trip in his new P85D: 'P Dave': crosscountrytesla.blogspot.com
His post on TM: http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/blogging-5000-mile-p85d-crosscountry-winter-trip�
Dec 30, 2014
NigelM What on earth would we do if you weren't here to preach constant patience? :smile:
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You're confusing me with someone else. I don't have a P85D, didn't order one and haven't complained about one.�
Jan 5, 2015
digitaltim One of my criteria to "upgrade" before the P85D was announced was more range...which expected to addressed mostly through higher density batteries. After reading all this, I am glad I have waited thus far. I really want AWD plus the performance, but my daily/weekly commutes are horrendous and range gets the highest weighting for me in the decisioning.�
Jan 5, 2015
skilly it most certainly does not at the moment do that. Not a chance.�
Jan 5, 2015
mspohr Straubel has a comprehensive blog post covering range and all of the ways of measuring it and the factors which influence it.
Driving Range for the Model S Family | Blog | Tesla Motors
In it, he states that the P85D gets 285 miles at constant 65mph with the new software (which hasn't been rolled out yet).
This blog post is a good read... highly recommended.�
Jan 5, 2015
randompersonx I agree. I attempted this last week in Florida (so no heat, no turns, no elevation changes, etc), range mode, sport mode, cruise control set at 70MPH (the speed limit) for ~100 miles, and I would say with those conditions, 250-260 miles would be the tops you could expect. Air conditioning was running, as I think you would have to just be insane to want to sit in a P85D with cruise control set at the speed limit and no air conditioning for hours in Florida.
At this speed, I was being passed by everyone on the road, and it would have been unsafe to go slower.�
Jan 6, 2015
Jallum.pa.us maybe it's just me or my imagination, but my p85d seems to use far more power when using cruise control than when I maintain a constant speed manually.�
Jan 6, 2015
RAW84 With city driving, it's extremely hard for me to keep my D under 500 Wh/mi. Often times I'm up near 600. I'm not sure how worried I should be about this, but I see folks posting numbers in the 300s and that pretty much never happens for me.
City driving here in the northeast is such low mileage that range is not a concern in my daily driving, but I haven't taken an extended highway trip to see if I can get Wh/mi in the mid-to-low 300s.�
Jan 6, 2015
dennis Way to take something out of context. Here is the entire post:
I was responding to @ampedrealtors complaint that Tesla had changed the published numbers from 285 to 242 to 250. I wasn't making any statement about what the car is capable of doing with the current software.�
Jan 6, 2015
skilly 70 on a freeway would create road rage in California! lol
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No. I didnt. I think many of us struggle to realize that 285 range, even under perfect circumstances and a tailwind. In fact, I haven't seen anyone post that they have....have you (assuming that you have one)?�
Jan 6, 2015
dennis How could anyone have possibly achieved 285 at constant 65 mph when Tesla has not delivered the torque sleeping software that is required to achieve this? Again, I was talking about the range numbers that Tesla has claimed. No P85D owner has a chance of achieving those numbers until the software update is delivered. Did you not read JB's blog post?�
Jan 6, 2015
bluenation maybe you coudl've have worded it much better.
no it does not. what you perhaps wanted to say was:
also
you got it backwards. they give us too little. that's piss poor customer service.
yes, i'd agree that's a consequence of having mostly engineers in charge of communications. or shoudl i say, lack thereof.�
Jan 6, 2015
skilly I read it and your use of present tense language in your post. While I remain hopeful they get it right, you said (along with other words) "The P85D still goes 285 miles: at a constant 65 mph as originally stated". you continue to refer to "current software" in the post following...nothing current gets there...but regardless of your use of present or future tense, the fact is, we have no idea (reading other posts on the subject) what version of SW was supplied to achieve this rating or how 'real world' it will translate to us. We have never seen it and clearly, something wasnt ready for it to be released for public consumption.
Ultimately, while its not a popular view for the TM loyalists, if a person bought on that advertised number, and some did, which then was reduced via regulatory intervention, and still remains unachievable, I would say they have a right to point to that and cry foul. It doesn't have to be met with a "vote with your dollars" statement or some other comment to defend. In reality, this whole fiasco of mileage on what is their premiere model S has been managed poorly on their end.�
Jan 6, 2015
Andyw2100 bluenation--It's one thing for you to argue with someone and show your own shortcomings by writing poorly and using poor grammar. But as a user of these forums I take issue with your putting your poorly written and grammatically incorrect words into "quote bubbles" that make it appear as if another user--in this case dennis--actually wrote the words. That's exactly what you did in the post two above this one, post number 226 in this thread, when you wrote, "what you perhaps wanted to say was:" and then proceeded to put your words in dennis' quote bubble. Someone casually scrolling through this thread might easily think dennis wrote those things. Luckily I know dennis writes a lot better than that, so I was not confused or misled by your tactics. But others may be. That was inappropriate.�
Jan 6, 2015
dennis I guess we will have to wait until we have the new software to see if customers can duplicate Tesla's claim of 285 miles at a constant 65 mph for the P85D. I'm of the belief that they actually measured that number, since it is part of the non-intuitive curve that shows the P85D having better range than the 85 below about 65 mph and worse range above it.�
Jan 7, 2015
Krugerrand Okay, so now what? Has been pointed out, foul cried... I'd say 'vote with your dollars' is an excellent example of one way to conclude the situation. While it's not a popular view for the non-TM loyalists, it can be quite productive as a whole to offer a solution and move on, rather than picking at the sore incessantly.�
Jan 7, 2015
dennis The real problem is that Tesla did not deliver the car with the software used to achieve either the 285 number or the EPA 242/250 numbers. If they had this whole fiasco would not have happened.
But you have no basis to claim there was "regulatory intervention". All cars must have mileage numbers submitted to the EPA before they can ship. Prior to the EPA test of the P85D, Tesla provided some mileage guidance with the "285 miles @ 65 mph" statement. They also said on the website that the S 85 achieved the same number. So if someone expected the P85D to have better range than the S 85 it wasn't because Tesla told them.
This is also no different than what Tesla did with the original Model S. Before they had EPA numbers they published a curve that showed the range vs. constant speed. They picked one data point (55 mph) and talked about 300 miles of range. When they completed their EPA testing they switched to advertising the range as 265 miles - the EPA number.
What would you have Tesla do? Not announce any new model until the EPA testing was complete and the number had been blessed by the EPA? Not provide any guidance on range at announcement? ("Since we haven't completed EPA testing we can't tell you want the range is of our new top-of-the-line model. But it will be good.") They provided one metric. They clearly stated how that number was determined. They provided a comparable number for their current product using the same metric.
Maybe they need to administer an IQ test before allowing someone to purchase the car.�
Jan 7, 2015
skilly Yeah so suck it up or move makes for such a great company moto. Give it a break - pushing internally and responding to market pressures is how a company becomes great.
People overly sensitive to what TM is accomplishing as a company see it as an attack; I don't. I see it as how the company gets better. And, lets face facts. This is really not about the product itself, rather, its about very poor communication and mismanagement of expectations from the TM marketing machine. It would be a VERY different discussion had they been more conservative in their pitch on range (which is FUNDAMENTAL to the usefulness of the car). Instead, they overstated.
Consider this - is there even value in this range measurement of 285 @ 65 miles?? If you have to discard the interior; turn off all accessories and hope for a tailwind with a slight downhill grade, what is the point? Wouldnt it be more appropriate to view this important data point from a measurement that is highly achievable; so much so that people are bragging on the forum about smashing through the posted range?? Instead, you find the exact opposite - people surprised, disappointed, angry, or (more positively) hopeful of a fix. And then the blindly loyal defending the cause and telling people to quit the club if they don't like it....hardly a solution that gives TM longevity. In dismissing them, you overlook that these people "picking at the sore" care about the company and its product as much as you. They are just conveying their message in a different way than you carry yours...its the beauty of a public forum.
Communication can make or destroy marriages, friendships, working relationships, and the customer experience. In the end, this is all controllable with the steps that TM makes in the market.
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Ill assume that you didnt mean to be as condescending as that sounds and let it pass unchecked.�
Jan 7, 2015
bluenation @skilly
totally agreed. too many fanboys (and girls...there are some here) are emotionally sensitive to any criticism of real issues, instead of taking it as what it is: customer frustrations that can be constructive criticism for product improvement.
see also: the unfortunate comment by dennis�
Jan 7, 2015
breser Good grief guys. From what I've seen dennis has been plenty critical of Tesla on their handling of this. The disagreement here is basically if Tesla gave incorrect numbers for the initial numbers or if those numbers might still be possible to achieve with the software no owner has yet. Nobody knows yet and quite frankly even after we have it I'm sure there will be plenty of doubters. Those numbers are essentially the ideal range at 65mph. It's hard to get the ideal range even in an S85 without AWD.
The initial numbers (285/275) are not comparable to the EPA range numbers (253/250/242), I pointed this out way back on October 11th. Dennis made an unfortunate comment, but he's just frustrated because he appears to feel that those two sets of numbers can't be compared should be obvious and you guys are twisting what he's saying. Maybe he should have been clearer a few posts back when he said that the 285 was still achievable. But give the guy a break and take him at his word about what he meant and move on.�
Jan 7, 2015
Krugerrand Not at all what I said.
I'll pretend you didn't type that.
I don't think it's an attack, but we do likely disagree about who's being overly sensitive at times.
Tesla isn't affiliated in any way with this forum, but they do have their own forum. Sometimes Tesla employees read this forum, but I'm not sure anyone knows how often or who. Nope, not saying people can't discuss their complaints here, just addressing your claim that everyone is for the betterment of the company. Complaining here comes across much of the time as being about venting and finding others who feel the same and therefore are supportive, because logically best results for customers AND Tesla is direct communication.
I've not dismissed or overlooked anyone. I can *hear* as plain as day and I understand the situation. The disagreement is on how best to get resolution and help the company improve. This isn't the first kick at the can on this forum. I've asked before what the results have been from past similar episodes.�
Jan 7, 2015
dsm363 These 'fanboys' comments are just as insightful as the comments you are criticizing.�
Jan 8, 2015
wk057 I hope Tesla pushes this update soon so that everyone, including myself, has less to complain about.�
Jan 8, 2015
Krugerrand If JB? had the timeline correct, then it'll be within 23 days.�
Jan 8, 2015
J1mbo 6.1 is being pushed now...�
Jan 8, 2015
wk057 ?! Really? *runs to car*
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Nope, nothing waiting on the P85D or P85.�
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