Thứ Bảy, 3 tháng 12, 2016

Competing technologies to BEV part 4

  • Dec 27, 2014
    Robert.Boston
    There's a long thread discussing this article over in the Environment section: Study: Comparative EV to ICE environmental impact
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  • Dec 27, 2014
    CalDreamin
  • Dec 27, 2014
    Auzie
    I read abstract and summary only, without scrutinizing test methods.

    The falseness of this study lies in trying to taint the clean bev technology with unclean power generation technology by falsely making these two independent variables appear to be dependent. Bev operation and the existence and cleanliness of the power source are independent of each other. This study makes a link between the two variables and such link does not exist in a real world.

    The choice of the type of power plant in an area is not driven by the type of transport that people choose. Any area that uses coal-powered plant as its electricity supply source most likely does not have other, better choices, or has the plant as a legacy. The existence of the coal powered plants is independent of the type of transport that people choose in the same area.

    The study implies that we should not be using bevs powered by coal-generated electricity if we wish to have clean air. My counter argument is that the number of bevs on the road has no meaningful impact on the cleanliness of the air that a power source creates. Electric vehicles are unlikely to increase demand on the said power plants as the charging happens during the night.

    Once we have a coal-powered plant operating in an area, and people do not wish to shut it down, the best way to clean the air is to install adequate filters on the plant.

    The question for residents of an area should be: given your power plant source will not change, which kind of transportation adds the least to polluting your air?
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  • Dec 28, 2014
    Robert.Boston
    The key point is that his article is looking primary at fine particulates. Gasoline doesn't have many of these, while coal does. The article is explicitly not about GHGs.
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  • Jan 1, 2015
    Auzie
    BMW to test fuel cell car

    BMW Marketing Head suggests battery cars will ultimately prevail

    :rolleyes:

    :rolleyes:

    :rolleyes:
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  • Jan 1, 2015
    Johan
  • Jan 1, 2015
    ggr
    Maybe contractual obligation. That would give a whole new meaning to "compliance car"!
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  • Jan 1, 2015
    Auzie
    Pursuing FCV seems to make their strategy more transparent. Drag their feet for as long as they can and pursue compliance cars.

    So much talent is lost in pursuing compliance at the expense of pursuing innovation

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  • Jan 1, 2015
    ItsNotAboutTheMoney
    1) Hedging
    2) Subsidies
    3) CARB has such generous credits for HFCV in comparison to BEV that it's a sensible thing to do
    4) ... and they might abandon BEVx and sell the i3 REX without the crippled REX.
    5) Fuel cells would be a very useful technology if the price can be lowered.

    Edit: in 4, meant BEVx
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  • Jan 1, 2015
    Auzie

    BMW Head of Marketing states his view on FCV likely future and announces that BMW will begin testing the technology he proclaimed obsolete.

    I find it astonishing that he said these incompatible statements in the same breath. Even more astonishing that this comes from a Head of Marketing, so it is unlikely to be a slip up. The only way that I can read that is that he does not like his job any more??? Maybe he wants a job at Tesla.:biggrin:
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  • Jan 2, 2015
    Familial Rhino
    Astonishing, indeed.

    Ah, ok. I'm not astonished anymore.
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  • Jan 2, 2015
    Auzie
    BMW 7 Series next generation revealed

    Bmw-7 series next generation 730d sedan photographed

    [?IMG]
    [?IMG]

    gas-guzzler

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  • Jan 2, 2015
    bluenation
    wow its...a kia k900

    *slow clap*
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  • Jan 5, 2015
    RobStark
  • Jan 5, 2015
    Peter_M
    I thought mainstream fuel cell cars were perpetually 15 years in the future. Now Toyota is saying 100 years...
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  • Jan 5, 2015
    pGo
    So it looks like one hydrogen station costs $2M. To build 500 stations, the bill would be $1B. Tesla will only spend around $150-200M to build just that. Add home chargers, and you can say Toyota is going to make the biggest strategic mistake of the century.
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  • Jan 5, 2015
    RobStark
    Toyota is only giving low interest loans to hydrogen fueling station companies.

    Most of the bill is being paid by taxpayers. First in CA, Japan, and Germany.
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  • Jan 5, 2015
    stopcrazypp
    With the big catch being only up to 2020. Then they can continue to charge whatever they want for the patents. That kind of catch makes the announcement much less meaningful. And there's a whole lot of other restrictions on what you can use the patents for.
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  • Jan 6, 2015
    chickensevil
    That way when 100 years comes to pass and the technology still isn't there no one will still be alive that remembers that the 100 year timeframe was mentioned. :p
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  • Feb 23, 2015
    Auzie
    Top horsepower per $

    Autoblog published comparison of 2015 cars on some interesting metrics

    Here is what the creative author Seyth Miersma has to say about his spreadsheet:

    The link to Seyth's spreadsheet is here

    Snapshot of the most expensive cars on this metric ($/hp):

    HPLIST.JPG

    Comparative list of more than 600hp cars:

    600hplist.JPG

    And something for the eyes to feast on:

    11-pagani-huarya-review-1.jpg :love::love::love:
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  • Feb 25, 2015
    Auzie
    BMW seem to have difficulties making up their mind about i5/i7

    New rumours on BMW i5 (or i7, not decided yet)

    Very difficult to let go of petrol bit.

    TESLABMW.jpg

    :love::love::love:. ..................................................:love::love::love:
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  • Feb 26, 2015
    Auzie
    Hot

    McLaren lighter, longer supercar revealed

    mclaren_600c-620x414.jpg
    :love::love::love:

    mclaren1.jpg mclaren_back.jpg
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  • Feb 26, 2015
    mspohr
    Sounds like a frankencar.
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  • Feb 26, 2015
    Auzie
    Combustion engine must be part of the future, one way or the other

    It is like a protected species

    babykoala.jpg cutaway_hemi_v8_engine_by_jetster1-d3k0819.jpg
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  • Apr 2, 2015
    FluxCap
  • Apr 2, 2015
    kenliles
    Best quote in that re: market of unique cars:
    "frankly, Tesla's are rare anymore" -
    thank goodness :)

    thanks for the post Flux!
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  • Apr 4, 2015
    Johan
    BTW did you guys see the Toyota Mirai's new "Inane mode"? 0-60 in 9 seconds. No wait that's standard mode...

    Also did you see how much Toyota belives in the Mirai? It's getting super special treatment:

    "Toyota will be manufacturing the fuel cell vehicles in the same area where it put together the Lexus LFA supercar. The assembly team, which is composed of 13 people, will be manually assembling the Mirai units to produce three cars daily without the usage of conveyors that are commonly seen in mass-production facilities, Toyota Motomachi plant assistant manager Mitsuyuki Suenaga said to reporters."
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  • Apr 4, 2015
    austinEV

    Oh my goodness the "stations" map is beyond sad: Toyota Mirai – The Turning Point
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  • Apr 4, 2015
    Johan
    I don't get the map. What is a "supporter" station?

    Nice if Tesla did this with SCs. Red for "here's one" and grey for "it'd be cool if we put one here"
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  • Apr 4, 2015
    AnxietyRanger
    ...one can argue they have to start somewhere, and ICEs started somewhere too.

    That said, even while Tesla's and EVs in general charging maps originally were pretty sad (still are in many places), the difference there is home "fuelling". I for one would become an AnxietyRanger in a Mirai very fast and in a completely new fashion, that's for sure.

    Also, that fuel cell diagram is not instilling me with warm and fuzzy feelings of simplicity and beauty... Fuel cells and alternatives to ICE are interesting, but color me unimpressed so far.
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  • Apr 5, 2015
    hiroshiy
    I think it's another side of the fact that the vehicle is too complex to build on a conveyor. The only hand manufacture line they chose to use. Not a special treatment IMHO. Only governments just buy those for Tsukiai, keeping relationships well.

    In Japan we have "mobile" FC stations; i.e. they didn't have enough money to have a fixed FC station. At one place in the morning, another place in the afternoon.
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  • Apr 5, 2015
    Johan
    I was being ironical. The paragraph quoted above is an attempt to spin the fact that cars like this are extremely expensive to make, are hand built and in very small numbers, in to something positive.
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  • Apr 5, 2015
    austinEV
    Indeed, gasoline stations started rare too. Electric doesn't have this problem. There are plugs everywhere. There is electric infrastructure everywhere. Even the challenge of doing a Supercharger station pales to the challenge of a hydrogen station. We HAD to build out the zillion dollar gasoline infrastructure in the 20th century. There is no similar need to build out a massive Hydrogen network. This will be the Betamax of vehicles.

    Also, hydrogen pumps cannot effectively meter how much is being taken. They don't have a viable model for even billing customers.
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  • Apr 5, 2015
    Auzie
    Every new BMW to get a hybrid version

    BMW NA CEO Ludwig Willisch on:

    -future BMW models: 'every new model will have a hybrid version as well'

    -on i5 and i7: 'Not anytime soon'

    -and on Tesla as a competitor: 'I wouldn't say I don't see any competition. But I still see that a Series 5 BMW and a Tesla are completely different animals'.

    2babytigers.jpg elephants.jpg
    S and X................................ BMW

    Ah how could I forget roadster roaming around

    Road.jpg
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  • Apr 6, 2015
    CHGolferJim
    Willisch doesn't mention 3 or 7 series :cool:
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  • Jul 24, 2015
    Newb
    CA Fuel-Cell Car Drivers Say Hydrogen Fuel Unavailable, Stations Don't Work

    "early lessees of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles in Southern California are complaining that they can't reliably fuel them at the handful of stations now supposedly operating in their region. The stations are frequently inoperative, they say, closed for days or weeks at a time.

    [...] Moreover, when the stations are functioning properly, they sometimes can only fuel one or two cars before an hour-long wait is required--and some stations can only fuel the cars to half-full. A private Facebook group for drivers of the Hyundai Tucson Fuel Cell SUV overflows with complaints about these issues, and the lack of accountability among the several different parties who oversee pieces of the nascent hydrogen fueling infrastructure."

    So much about the superiority of fool cells and hydrogen storage and distribution... :rolleyes:
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  • Jul 24, 2015
    austinEV

    Wow, that is crazy bad. The supporters of H2 should be throwing resources at this. If you buy into the consipiracy theory that the old guard wants to support H2 to discredit pure EV, then doubly so. They are taking the one advantage of H2 (ordinary, fast fueling) and turning it into the false complaint levelled at Pure EV's, namely that it takes a long time and you have to wait at superchargers. My personal consipiracy theory is that H2 proponents want to be seen to support it, find that the public doesn't buy them, then use that as an argument to water down CARB requirements on the logic that people hate AF vehicles. But to do this just undermines everything. It undermines real adoption, and it undermines the false narrative that "we tried, everyone hates them". I mean these drivers must be switching to their other cars right? No way would I dependon on a FCV if the fuel supply was iffy.
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  • Jul 25, 2015
    Newb
    yep, this is really crazy bad. :biggrin: I mean, digest that: you live in California which is kind of a pilot project state for hydrogen fuel stations. you drive this utterly expensive hydrogen-fool-cell-car through town and your tank is getting close to being empty. You go to one of those massively expensive hydrogen fueling stations, and it's just closed and nobody notified you or your car.

    What do you do then? You're stranded there, and the best thing: nobody cares. No party involved feels responsible. And then, even if it is open, and you're unlucky enough that some other early adopter of FCVs has just successfully managed to refuel, you've got to wait an hour to get refilled to half tank (which is a theoretical range of just about ~150 miles, btw). Then you go home and the next day you wake up with the uncomfortable feeling that you couldn't recharge to 100% over night, you cannot rely on the hydrogen fueling stations but you're totally dependent - every single day of your life you depend on those crappy hydrogen fueling stations.

    And about the responsibility/accountability issue: If hydrogen is so inexpensive to produce, efficient to distribute, and in general the "bright future" of fuels, why the heck nobody takes care of non-functioning fueling stations? Imagine Tesla did this with superchargers and totally frustrate early-adopters - they'd severly damage their business model and the integrity of their vision of free and clean long-distance travel. It's either just unbelieveably dumb action from the hydrogen people or this whole hydrogen idea does only work on paper, but surely not in reality. Poor poor early-adopters...
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  • Jul 25, 2015
    atang
    Okay @austinEV and @Newb, You guys are so correct in your calling BS on Hydrogen. But I already had to clean coffee off my screen and keybord once, now twice! You guys are having entirely too much fun with this matter. But hay, I'm laughing right along with both of you! :tongue:
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  • Jul 25, 2015
    Johan
    One alternative view could be that this whole fiasco with hydrogen cars coming to market extremely slowly, with poor performance, with a completely non-functioning infrastructure etc. is an intentional strategy from the ICE makers aimed at demonstrating to the world that going away from ICEs (with the exception of small battery hybrids) is oh so difficult and will take decades. And that consumers just need to accept this and keep buying gasoline powered cars.

    And actually this strategy would have worked perfectly, with small, short range, weird looking EVs as a super niche product if it weren't for Tesla coming along really stirring the pot and throwing the big car makers off their game.

    See, they had planned on having decades to devest their ICE factories, dealer systems, to build up in house expertise etc. Not 5-10 years or whatever Tesla is doing to the market.
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  • Jul 27, 2015
    austinEV
    Johan, your conspiracy theory is as good as most, but strikes me as sub-optimal because the public already thinks that. I think their audience is regulators. If *I* were in charge of killing AFV's, and I am not, I would go the route of keeping the fuel stations working. That way they can tell the regulatory officials that they honestly did everything they could to support the idea. They don't need to *further* poison the idea, beyond the original sin of designing a H2 fuel vehicle. H2 at it's best won't succeed and they know it. But, I guess this might be even better since Toyota can blame the state government for the failure of 2015, and buy some time to let H2 fail by itself in 2016/2017. Hmmm.

    This is the reason I think McDonalds keeps selling salads. I think they really don't want to, and they don't make money, and they don't sell very many. I think it is so when they are inevitably sued they can just say "we try to sell healthy food, but you people don't buy them". Toyota and the other Big ICE cars want to say "we tried making low-range wierdmobiles, but you people don't by them". Its a get-out-of-jail free ploy.
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  • Jul 27, 2015
    Johan
    Yeah maybe you're right, they love the fact that they can share/place the blame for the failure of "green cars" with the regulators.

    It's like a boxer taking a fall since that'll pocket him more than a win would have.

    At least that we they thought they were in line for, until Tesla came and suddenly turned the clock forward 10 years. Highly unsettling and not at all what they expected.
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  • Oct 21, 2015
    uselesslogin
  • Oct 28, 2015
    Newb
    Don't really know where to put this, but came across some frightening parallel while watching old Kodak ads/commercials...

    Jurassic Park 1997:



    Jurassic Park 2015


    ...bad omen, if you ask me...
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