Jan 11, 2016
boonedocks Broke out the stopwatch on my drive home. Usually have 2 know "hold steering wheel" nags at known locations only during 40+ mile commute. Today with 7.1 at 75mph had the "nag" every 3 minutes on the que. Have never had timed nags until today.�
Jan 11, 2016
Rockster I understand Tesla's desire for timed nag, but this trend towards increased nagging could quickly become annoying.�
Jan 11, 2016
jbcarioca Could indeed. Driving 300 miles with alerts every five minutes is a trifle irritating. On the other hand, I understand the Tesla logic because if so many well-documented idiots. I always pay close attention anyway so touching the wheel every five minutes does not bother me. If we are as attentive as we should be that should not really bother anyone. Autopilot, as in an aircraft autopilot, is an aide, but not a substitute. If we become irritated by the calls might we perhaps paying too little attention?�
Jan 11, 2016
davidc18 Quite disappointed at the new nagging after my "upgrade" this afternoon.�
Jan 11, 2016
Max* Agreed, it definitely nags. 3 mins on highway, 1 min on local road for me. With stop watch, repeatable.�
Jan 11, 2016
TexasEV Maybe you should hold the steering wheel then.�
Jan 11, 2016
Cyberax I'm on the old AP which appears to be more sensitive, but even it often fails to detect that I _do_ have my hands on the wheel.
Needless to say, I'm not upgrading.�
Jan 11, 2016
davidc18 I would then say there is no need for "autopilot". The nags are not a technical requirement, it is just that the car has now been upgraded to full "lawyer" mode.�
Jan 11, 2016
CHG-ON Unfortunate for those of us who are actually paying complete attention to what is going on.
Like the old saying, "one bad apple ruins the whole barrel". Thank you idiots doing stupid things. You have ruined it for the rest of us. I hope you are completely unsatisfied by your irresponsible stunts.�
Jan 11, 2016
Patrick W Maybe it's location specific. I put about 70 miles on the car today with 7.1 and only got maybe one or two more nags than with the previous firmware.�
Jan 11, 2016
Cyberax The timer seems to be reset every time you do some action like changing a lane, adjusting the set speed or doing manual acceleration.�
Jan 11, 2016
S4WRXTTCS Ugh, I predicted that they wouldn't do timed nag (except where there are even slight corners) cause the steering wheel can't detect hands on steering wheel. The only thing it can detect is torque and the only way to produce torque is to turn slightly.
Not that it matters for me since I haven't gotten any update since the first V7.0
So it's kinda like an enforced grace period to allow me to think hard as to whether I really want this upgrade.
So it's between
Doesn't work well in the right hand lane, but only bugs to hold steering wheel in situations where it can easily detect it.
Vs.
Works well in the right hand lane, but forces me to slightly turn the steering wheel every x minutes.�
Jan 11, 2016
JenniferQ Agree. I'm still waiting and it's good to hear all of this before updating. But, I suppose in the end, it is what it is. We know Musk and the entire industry are headed toward this, so eventually the nagging has to stop or we won't get there, will we? We'll all revolt first.�
Jan 11, 2016
Cyberax I'm now used to drive for more than 10-20 miles without any nag. And the right exits are pretty predictable.
For me the choice is clear: 7.0 until the restrictions are lifted or there's a REALLY major UI update (CarPlay or third-party app support).�
Jan 11, 2016
Jool So there really are timed nags now? How disappointing. I loved using auto steering on multiple Vegas trips, it worked fantastically. But having to torque the wheel every few minutes is a huge downgrade in functionality.�
Jan 11, 2016
S4WRXTTCS I'm still going to update assuming I ever get the update.
My reasoning is I like complaining. Oh, boy do I love a good complaint. At the same time I'm a strong believer that you have to have X to complain about X.
It's also the most effective way to make X into Y.�
Jan 11, 2016
bonnie Can't wait. Try to make it something memorable, okay?
�
Jan 11, 2016
S4WRXTTCS I'll try. But, I have to keep in somewhat sane because I know this is just a weird transitionary period between Level II semi-autonomous driving, and Level III.
I also have this inescapable feeling that this is somewhat related towards regulatory concerns. Where Tesla might be protecting themselves especially on their home turf given the DMV's confusion over V7.0, and the nag.
The second drawback of it miss-detecting roads/speed limit signs might be the more meaty of two to complain about. It's more engineering anyways.�
Jan 11, 2016
Mark Z 7.1 will make the comparison between Model X P90DL and the original Model S more interesting.
Now the Model S P85 is quieter in more ways than having one motor.
I wonder if the lawyers will demand that Tesla Motors force the update to all Autopilot vehicles so no delay will occur in getting these life saving improvements into every Model S and X as soon as possible.�
Jan 12, 2016
GasKilla I keep my hands on the wheel and still get the "nag" (no 7.1 update yet) once I was grabbing the wheel with both hands in many different places before the "nag" went away. Guess I didn't realize you really have to torque the wheel.�
Jan 12, 2016
martinwinlow " The only thing it can detect is torque and the only way to produce torque is to turn slightly." Ah, yes. Maybe this is why the AP steering always feels like its working to hard - very small jerky movements. Its not 'steering' - it's just sensing if one's hands are on the wheel? MW�
Jan 12, 2016
Dborn That is what my SC told me.�
Jan 12, 2016
stevem With all this talk about a new timed nag, I decided to try it on my way home last night. Used Rt80 heading west away from NYC. Autopilot engaged at 6:20. First "hold wheel" message 6:45, second hold wheel message 6:50. Exited the highway at 6:55 and didn't see it again. Got on local roads and turned it off.
The second one was 5 minutes after the first. But the first was 25 minutes after I started it.
Anecdotal evidence at best, but it's what I saw last night.�
Jan 12, 2016
sillydriver Frankly, after testing it yesterday (see posts in firmware 7.1 thread) I would roll back the "upgrade" if I could.�
Jan 12, 2016
sillydriver IMHO that truly, completely eliminates the benefit of the system: an opinion I feel very strongly about for the reasons below. If hands on the wheel were genuinely required (e.g. by nags after ten seconds of no torque as in the current Mercedes system) I would never engage AP again.
The reason is that with hands on the wheel I, or my muscle memory, wants to do the steering. Since my muscle memory steers the car slightly differently than AP steers the car (different placement in the lane or entry into curves) I find myself fighting AP, so that by having hands on the wheel I force it to disengage after a short while. Not a pleasant experience. And yet if I trained myself to be passive while my hands are on the wheel, the issues are 1) training my hands to be passive on the wheel reduces the muscle memory for driving and becomes potentially dangerous when AP is not on, and 2) it is pointless, since it eliminates the use of an even better autopilot (me) that is engaged as the result of having hands on the wheel.
Autopilot has the ability to relieve the handstrain and cramps caused by having hands in the same position on the wheel for long trips (such as the drive between Virginia and New Hampshire I sometimes make - in a gasoline car - to see relatives) but if I was holding the steering wheel that benefit is eliminated.�
Jan 12, 2016
boonedocks I'll try and take a couple of time lapse videos to post tonight BUT I have verified with a stop watch that at 75mph touching nothing to do with TACC A/P or speed it prompts to hold steering wheel every 3 minutes to the second
Not anecdotal at all. Fact!!�
Jan 12, 2016
Rockster At this point, I believe the annoyance of the nagging is greater than the gimmicky "summon" features and I'm kicking myself for upgrading. I'm quite capable of being responsible in my $100,000+ car. I don't need to be nagged.
But, I don't blame Tesla. I'm a pragmatist and I recognize that the idiots out there left Tesla no choice. Like so many other things in society, the idiots have ruined it for everyone else.�
Jan 12, 2016
ecarfan And this post is also fact:Multiple people have reported no timed nag on 7.1 and multiple people have reported a timed nag.
Different people are having different experiences on different roads. I think that AP is more confident on some roads than others.�
Jan 12, 2016
Ryan H We know that Autopilot only works at 5 MPH over the speed limit on "restricted" roads. Is it possible the nag is based on the set speed over the posted speed limit, meaning more nagging occurs at 10-15 MPH over the limit versus +5 MPH or less?�
Jan 12, 2016
Chasedrgc1223 That's a great guess. Let's test it.�
Jan 12, 2016
Soolim I would guess that Tesla must had several internal debates before they decided to implement this nag. The lawyers could be saying that the disclaimer is not enough to protect Tesla, the AP needs to have a more proactive role in preventing misuse. This is not to say that it cannot be willfully defeated by a can of soda (as shown in youtube). The nag would probably stay until autonomous driving is implemented in the next few years (Elon's time).
This nagging might also be related to the pending regulatory approval in other countries.�
Jan 12, 2016
Vince Cobelo Or it could be number of miles traveled. But good idea.�
Jan 12, 2016
cytranic I drove for 30 min @75mph this morning on the highway without touching a single thing. No Nag at all.... The road is pretty straight however, not alot of turns. I always got the nagging prior to 7.1 when there were alot of turns. The limiting option doesnt do a very good job either. I was on a 6 lane road with a clear divider and it was telling me the autopilot was limited. cars were honking and zooming past me because everyone drives 10MPH over the speed limit... So Autopilot is no longer useful on that stretch.
The summon feature is pretty lame in my opinion. I have a 1/2 lip on my garage and it wont climb over it. In addition it seems that the autopilot is less accurate in my residential roads than before.
I would also downgrade if I could.�
Jan 12, 2016
Vince Cobelo Yes..I experienced AP at about 80 MPH the same as you and no nag as long as I was on the highway for about 20 miles. I don't understand this lip over the garage thing because I have a inch and it had no problems. One time however it wanted to back out of the garage and into the bushes at the side of the driveway. It did that once in about the 8 times I played with it.
Other than that 7.1 seems to be working good for me. I haven't given up on the idea that it will improve as it "learns" my driving habits. Like where the car was before I put it in the garage it should return it right back to. Something to be figured out which makes the car so fun.�
Jan 12, 2016
Cosmacelf The new 7.1 AP is a lot more robust and safe. For instance, it slows down for curves now.�
Jan 12, 2016
Max*
7.0 slowed down for curves too.�
Jan 12, 2016
Vince Cobelo I wonder why Tesla doesn't let us let our cars go back to the previous version after the upgrade. Legalities? I think Tesla vets any software changes and mitigates liability as much as can be done.
Can do it with almost everything else technological and if this is to be the tablet or cell phone of the automotive industry you'd think it would be customer choice. I can take a computer back to a previous OS. Why not the car?�
Jan 12, 2016
Korben It is expensive to maintain multiple code branches. Nowadays the push is always forward. The apps on your phone are a good example. FWIW, the OS in the car probably is not changing much at all.�
Jan 12, 2016
msnow I do think there are some things in the updates that address legal/regulatory issues as well as bug fixes. I'm sure that's part of the reason for not allowing rollbacks.�
Jan 12, 2016
jbcarioca I suspect most people who are not aircraft pilots are not aware of the amount of monitoring, control and intervention is required with autopilots.
The 6.5 release of Autosteer did not alert enough, in my opinion, to deal with inattentive drivers and/or sudden changes in driving conditions. These 'nags' are ceetainly technical requirements if "Autosteer" is not equivalent to "Autonomous" which is certainly is not. There may have been legal involvement, but I regard the new alerts as well placed to deter complacency. I wish we could be assured that our fellow drivers would be attentive at all times. The number of texters, talkers, makeup appliers, readers and other such make me prefer more alerts.
I freely admit that my experience as a flight instructor doing jet type ratings influences my views. Otherwise capable people often forgot basic hand flying as they became overly reliant on advanced autopiots. In order to get some high time airline pilots to pass a type rating check ride for a Learjet I often had to give them basic 'stick and rudder' training. Our Tesla Autosteer is not the same, but the price of being lulled into inattention and complacency by our excellent technology is quite similar.
We should be thankful for the 'nags'. One day we'll have autonomous driving. Then it will be different.�
Jan 12, 2016
msnow I'd agree to a point. If it's a timed nag and your hands are already on the wheel then it makes autosteer of less benefit.�
Jan 12, 2016
davidc18 Agree that the system needs to monitored, but not with timed nagging. The autopilot in 7.0 worked surprisingly like the autopilot LNAV/VNAN systems in the Boeing 737. It was very consistent and easy to understand when it would work well vs when it needed close monitoring. I was very confident in v7.0 and thought that Tesla had done an excellent job.
I was able to bypass the new nagging very easily. If you are interested in a non permanent solution, I used a plastic clamp and a small bag filled with about 5 ounces of popcorn. Super easy to clip on and take off and environmentally friendly.�
Jan 12, 2016
jbcarioca Personally, I agree. However, in our cars there is no requirement for training, much less recurrent training and no performance monitoring. I wish I did not think the timed nags were needed. They seem to be, given some publicly known behaviors. Still, Tesla could have used seat sensors (the same ones used for passenger side airbags) to disenable vehicle operation without the driver seat occupied to prevent some egregious offenses. That still presents the driver inattention problem. In airliners, even the smallest commuters, there is time available to react. In cars there is much, much shorter reaction time available. Can you think of other ways to cope with that problem other than timed nags? We would all like something more pertinent to the problem, I think.�
Jan 12, 2016
boonedocks
My long morning stretch is on Interstate 985 which is a divided expressway in Georgia with a posted speed limit of 70mph. I get the nag every 3 minutes driving at 75pmh without fail. I will try driving 70mph on my way home today and see if it continues the 3 minute nag. I will also try and do a time laps video to show it.�
Jan 12, 2016
davidc18 I was hoping that the weight in the seat switch would be enough.
The problem with the speed limit signs is that the car gets it wrong quite often. I am also very curious if there have been any accidents caused by not having a timed "nag". Its just my opinion but I don't need my car nagging me to touch the wheel. I am very capable of monitoring the car and what is happening around it. Touching the wheel has nothing to do with how much the driver is paying attention. As you well know, driving safely in S.Florida is an exercise in defensive driving at all times. Anyway, there is no avoiding the update in the long term, so the best I can hope for is that in a future update the nagging will be removed.
I know this is not really an "answer" to your posted question. I do know that there is no way to force the driver to pay attention. The driver is there to monitor and back up the automation. This tends to work well with aviation, but I can see that there will likely be issues down the road with this type of automation and driving. As the automation becomes better, there will be less "hand on" experience with driving and the circle of dependency will continue. Just look at the latest from the FAA on pilots and "stick and throttle" issues arising from the over reliance on automation.�
Jan 12, 2016
msnow I've got to believe that the "nags" are a result of media attention to the "look ma no hands" videos and, more importantly, legal and regulatory issues, not accidents.�
Jan 12, 2016
kort677 maybe the car will "learn" to nag less often�
Jan 12, 2016
JMG I'm really bummed about these new safety features.
50% of my commute is on a 2-lane state highway with 75mph speed limits. It was just repaved not long ago, so it has very distinct lane markings. So autopilot always handled it with ease. However, there is a small section where the car thinks the speed limit drops to 70. There is no sign to trick it, must be some GPS database that is incorrect.
I initially thought the "restricted" roads were just residential roads and those without a center line. I now that it says, center divider. So unless the road as a turning lane or median, it's restricted. Normally this wouldn't be an issue for me personally, because of Texas highway patrol, I usually keep at 5mph above the speed limit anyways. However, this morning on my way to work, it missed a 75mph speed limit sign and thought the speed limit was 60mph for a good 10 or so miles of my commute until I came across another 75mph speed limit sign to correct itself. Thus, it wouldn't let me go above 65mph for using autopilot where I normally drive 79-80.
Not liking it...�
Jan 12, 2016
zer0cool Texas has some high speed limit... speed limit for 2 lane state highways here in the Carolinas generally won't exceed 60 mph, maybe a few at 65 mph in really remote areas (and these are generally divided highways).�
Jan 12, 2016
InternetDude I didn't read all the threads on the nag yet but perhaps the nag timing depends on your set speed?�
Jan 12, 2016
Max* I'm trying to gather data here, How and why to nag (AP V7.1)
I'm more inclined that it's speed limit, not set speed, but I don't have enough data points yet.�
Jan 12, 2016
InternetDude I have 7.1 but just haven't had time to test anything yet�
Jan 12, 2016
AWDtsla Yup. I can understand Tesla taking the stance that the car is still your responsibility, but nagging you to perform a useless function completely eliminates the benefits.�
Jan 12, 2016
Carl Leermakers There was an accident in the Netherlands yesterday, where the driver, after driving into a truck moving on the same lane, and making a total loss of his car, blamed AP. Probably not very difficult for Tesla to find out whether AP was deficient or not, but anyway: are we in the future going to have Tesla in-board cameras monitoring whether our eyes are on the road (or reading the news, instead), and nagging us about that as well�
Jan 12, 2016
Max* I doubt it. The future is getting out of Level 2 autonomy and moving to Level 3, which is semi-autonomous, which means you can take a nap and the car would be legally responsible.
EM promised that future in 2 years, maybe 3. So we'll probably see it from him and other big name brands in 5 years time.�
Jan 12, 2016
Todd Burch Today I went 8 minutes, 34 seconds without a nag. Plus or minus about a half second. Didn't touch the wheel, cruise speed, turn signals, pedals...not even the radio. Didn't touch a single control in the car the whole time. This verifies what I thought I saw yesterday.
I was traveling between 60-70 mph almost the whole time, with my set speed at 70 and the speed limit at 65 mph. Even went thru a construction zone where they're widening the highway from 2 lanes to 3 and had ground down some of the old stripes and painted new ones half a lane away--not one nag.
It wasn't until I passed by a car that was parked on the shoulder that the nag appeared. Coincidence maybe, but maybe not.
Timed this with a stopwatch, and watching it like a hawk.
If there is a timed nag, it's only under a certain set of conditions.�
Jan 13, 2016
boonedocks Two time-lapse videos showing the 3 minute nag made back to back on this mornings commute. A/P set at 75mph on I985 Southbound in Georgia with light traffic. (posted speed limit 70mph)
�
Jan 13, 2016
davidc18 Okay, I did hear back from Tesla today (after emailing after the 7.1 upgrade) and they stated that they the way autopilot interprets when it need you to "hold wheel" has changed but there is "to their knowledge" no specific timed requirement. On my drive to work today I did not get the hold wheel request until about the 15 minute mark and on my return trip I was not "nagged" at all on the 25 minute drive. The time of day was different from my first report but the roads were the same. Perhaps there is no timed nag. My drive today does suggest that.�
Jan 13, 2016
boonedocks
ABSOLUTELY there is. I have confirmed it repeatedly and even posted videos. Now it may be by road or expressway/interstate but there IS. Mine started the minute I upgraded to 7.1 Never had them before on this stretch and now they are repeatable at 3 minute intervals�
Jan 13, 2016
Max* Same. Mine is also 3 minutes on the highway and it's 1 minute on (what Tesla thinks) is a undivided highway with a lower speed limit.
Something is definitely up, and typical Tesla making **** up as they go along. Why not answer truthfully "I have no idea, I'll email engineering, who knows better and hopefully they get back to you soon"�
Jan 13, 2016
Todd Burch Ok, so again on the highway I went over eight minutes without a nag and without touching any controls. Two days in a row, timing with a stopwatch. For those so convinced there's a timed nag, how do you explain that?
If there is a timed nag, it has to be under a set of specific circumstances--it cannot possibly apply everywhere.�
Jan 13, 2016
andrewket For all of you who are deferring upgrading, keep in mind that if you take your car to a service center for just about any reason they will upgrade your car to the latest version. You can ask them not to, but they will do it anyway.
I personally do not believe I've experienced the timer nag. I will be more diligent in looking for it.�
Jan 13, 2016
green1 No they won't update it, because they'll be in court if they do, and they won't get my key until they sign something saying they won't cripple my car.
They have no legal right to modify my vehicle in any way without my prior authorization, that includes software. And this also does not excuse any of their obligations under either the warranty or the service plan, those contracts are still binding as well.�
Jan 13, 2016
boonedocks As I said it may be by expressway or interstate BUT I can repeatedly make it happen and even included videos below for you to see that it is repeatable on demand. Not happenstance.�
Jan 13, 2016
AWDtsla To be fair to Tesla, this could be an illusion. Since they reveal nothing about the control logic, any decision you see it make is pretty much magic, and anyone will attempt to find some pattern that it fits is like seeing animal shapes in clouds or the virgin mary in toast.�
Jan 13, 2016
boonedocks If it is 100% repeatable without fail it is not magic, it is a fact. Maybe staying in the clouds is best for some.......�
Jan 13, 2016
Max* Not sure if that's directed at me, but I never said a nag happens in all circumstances. I said I have a 3-minute nag that I'm sure is there. As do others. But not everyone has a nag. And there is no clear pattern yet.�
Jan 13, 2016
Max* Not sure which part of NoVa you're in, but I could name 2 roads in Northern Virginia that have a repeatable timed nag for me.
Every 3 minutes (I did the test for 12-minutes, so 4 times) on I-495 going south from roughly Gallows road down to I-95. Pretty sure had a 3-minute nag on I-95, though I can't remember now...
And every 1 minute after getting off I-95 onto the Fairfax County Parkway going north (after about 4-5minutes, I got tired of the nag and held the wheel).
- - - Updated - - -
That's very condescending, and blatantly wrong.
I can repeat multiple times a timed nag in my car on 2 different roads, at 2 different timed increments. Someone here (boonedocks) has posted a video of his repeatable 3-minute nag.
This isn't a "well it's around 3 minutes and 18 seconds, but sometimes it's at 3 minutes and 23 seconds". These are whole minute increments.
If it happened once to 1 person, then sure, maybe he did something wrong and it's a coincidence. But when it's happening, in whole minute increments, to multiple people and each one of those multiple people can repeat the experiment multiple times, it's not a coincidence anymore.
Hands OFF the wheel will cause a nag in my car on 2 roads that I've tested it on. Hands on the wheel will not cause a nag, even gently the car seems to detect that you're holding the wheel.�
Jan 13, 2016
AWDtsla That's how superstitions start, humans think something is 100% repeatable but it's just coincidence.�
Jan 13, 2016
Max* A coincidence that never happened before the update, being driven on the same roads. Give me a break.�
Jan 13, 2016
skialpine I drove for about an hour on the highway last night in traffic averaging about 30 MPH. I did not receive any nag requests. I am sure others are seeing it frequently, but I have only been requested to take the wheel a couple of times since the 7.1 upgrade.�
Jan 13, 2016
AWDtsla It's new software. Basically one report of anyone exceeding a 3 minute stretch nullifies a forced nag at this interval. There seems to have been several. Personally I haven't gone over about 1 minute without a hold warning on known roads so far, but I haven't done that much highway driving. Not enough info for me to conclude anything, other than there are more of them.�
Jan 13, 2016
green1 That's what the stopwatch is for, exact whole minute increments repeatable over long periods of time across multiple users on multiple different roads. Seems far more likely there's a nag than not. The bigger question would be to determine why it's only there sometimes. There's obviously an algorithm that decides whether to nag or not, it's too bad we don't know what that is.
- - - Updated - - -
Actually it doesn't, it invalidates the idea of a timed nag of that duration in the particular situation that person was in.
In 7.0 many people claimed a timed nag, I always told them they were wrong based on the fact nobody could ever put a stopwatch to it and come up with an exact number. 7.1 is different because the stopwatch shows that exact time.�
Jan 13, 2016
Max* So close, but that's not how it works. In order for your proof to be bulletproof, you need to take into account all possible variables.
The nag could be linked to the road. Or the speed limit. Or your set speed. Or any number of other things.
This is why I started this thread to see if there is any discernible pattern: Survey: How and why the nag (AP V7.1) happens
If you said one report of a person exceeding 3-minutes on the same road as someone else having the 3-minute nag on the same stretch of road under the same driving conditions, now that would likely make it null and void, but that hasn't happened.
So you're arguing for the sake of arguing? Gotchya.�
Jan 13, 2016
gizmoboy I looked at your videos and didn't understand what I was supposed to be seeing. In neither of them did I see the nag message at all.
What am I missing?
P.S. Don't have 7.1 yet, and am ambivalent about the wait, given the furor...�
Jan 13, 2016
Max* As soon as the timer ends he zooms into the IC where at the bottom of it you see a "Hold Steering Wheel" message.�
Jan 13, 2016
Cyberax Not really. It just means that some people either don't get nag or somehow don't trigger it otherwise. It's also possible that Tesla is doing a large-scale test with only some people getting the new timed nag.
Another conjecture is that AP hardware does some periodic recalibration or re-evaluation that can trigger a nag as a side effect.�
Jan 13, 2016
gizmoboy I watched each video twice and didn't see that.
Turns out it's there for like a split second at the end before the screen cuts to ads for the next video. Sorry for missing it.�
Jan 13, 2016
Max* Red arrows are mine:
�
Jan 13, 2016
gizmoboy Yeah, as I said earlier, the video flips from the last frame to a set of ads nearly instantaneously, so I didn't see it even after rewatching them looking for it.
When I was told they were at the very end, I could see it for a split second.�
Jan 13, 2016
sillydriver Seeing the Virgin Mary in toast is an observation. Measuring the spin of a neutron is an observation. They are both observations, but the second qualifies as empirical scientific investigation, the first does not. People on this board timing nags with a stopwatch are in the second category, not the first.�
Jan 13, 2016
boonedocks My guess is you could Skype with me or even be in my car and time it yourself and you would still deny it. Keep your head in the clouds counting unicorns jumping cotton ball mountains. Just for you I'll see if I can do another NON time lapse video with plenty of room at the end to see the IC clearly. If you still deny that it's a FACT and not a fantasy story, well then keep playing with those unicorns...�
Jan 13, 2016
Todd Burch Wasn't directed at anyone in particular. I'm not challenging that people are seeing nags at three minute intervals, I believe everyone saying that. I'm just pointing out that it's not always 3 minutes.
One theory, based on what boonedocks saw: Maybe if your set speed is above 70mph, or your actual travel speed exceeds 70mph, the nags are more likely? When I drove 8+ minutes my actual speed was in the 65-70mph range.�
Jan 14, 2016
Max* I'm trying to track that in the other thread. I was going 55mph in a 55mph zone and I had 3 minute nags.
Someone else was going 75mph in a 70mph, and he had 5-minute nags. Someone else going 60-79 in a 70 had 3 minute nags.
I think as Andrew pointed out (I think it was him?) this might be an A/B test, where they're deploying various time based nags only on certain cars and comparing... who knows what. This makes the most sense at this point, as there is no clear correlation to... well... anything yet.�
Jan 14, 2016
Todd Burch Well I *have* seen one 3 minute nag (3 min, 4 seconds as I recorded) so I'm thinking instead of an A/B test, it may be more of a certain set of conditions that we just can't figure out.
The odd thing is that probably 80% of my nags occur at times where autopilot is doing just fine!�
Jan 14, 2016
tezzla It's also a fact that my car (with v7.1) does not have a 3 minute nag. Maybe your car/sensor(s) has an internal problem that will meet a threshold every 3 minutes, repeatable because it's always failing?�
Jan 14, 2016
ecarfan This ongoing discussion shows that different people in different cars have widely differing levels of "nag" on different roads.
This is hardly surprising. The "nag" appears based on a complex algorithm evaluating multiple inputs. It's going to vary quite a bit in different situations. For the same driver traveling on the same road at the same speed it is likely to be fairly consistent but may also gradually change over time.�
Jan 14, 2016
andrewket Perhaps the only way to solve this is to get several cars together and drive the same route at the same time.�
Jan 14, 2016
kort677 for me the nag isn't a problem, in fact I like the fact that it reminds me to stay focused�
Jan 14, 2016
donv Remember, too, that we're talking about a camera, which is highly sensitive to lighting and weather conditions.�
Jan 14, 2016
msnow Agreed, and there's one sure way to avoid this particular nag altogether (as noted by Max * and others).�
Jan 14, 2016
JenniferQ I can't find Max*s poll (and I have searched a lot of different things), but I used AP today on the normal route with about 5+ miles of freeway driving set at 75 in a 65. No nag at all and I kept my thumb and index finger loosely around the wheel as I always do. Now, I did have to change lanes several times about every mile. Seriously, what is it about CA and their freeways always running out of the right lanes and making you keep going left, left, left? :smile: So, I'm not sure if that prevented the nag.
I will be on a longer stretch later today with no lane changes for about 15 miles and am anxious to see what happens then.�
Jan 14, 2016
Max* I should've used a better name: Survey: How and why the nag (AP V7.1) happens
- - - Updated - - -
When I keep my hands loosely around the wheel I don't get a nag either. It's hands off = timed nag for me. And from my last comment here, it might be travel speed dependent: Firmware 7.1 - Page 106�
Jan 14, 2016
JenniferQ Thanks. I searched "Poll:" and "Autopilot nag"
Ok, I will check with hands off this afternoon. I use that sometimes on very long monotonous IH drives where there's not much bad that can happen. Or if I'm excitedly showing someone everything the screen can do while I drive.:redface:�
Jan 14, 2016
Patrick W Playing Devil's Advocate here but when we activate auto pilot we all see a message saying hands must be kept on the wheel. So if we don't do that shouldn't we expect to be nagged?�
Jan 14, 2016
JenniferQ Indeed.�
Jan 14, 2016
AWDtsla Devils Advocate #2: We ask Tesla to give us back our $3k and disable autopilot.�
Jan 14, 2016
RDoc I'd put it more in the Angels' advocacy camp.�
Jan 14, 2016
msnow I would think so yes.�
Jan 14, 2016
AWDtsla Imagine if a software update came out that wouldn't let the car drive above the detected speed limit.
Just imagine how fanciful that statement isn't.�
Jan 14, 2016
msnow I can appreciate the difficulty in accepting a limitation like that hypothetical and I wouldn't like it BUT in this case we accepted use of this feature (in beta) by agreeing to use it as intended. If I don't I'll have to deal with nags. I've only driven about 20 miles with it lightly touching the wheel and have had just a couple of nags. It really wasn't that bad.�
Jan 14, 2016
Max* When you get your drivers license you agree to obide by all laws. You've never went over the speed limit by 0.1mph?�
Jan 14, 2016
msnow Well sure but I had my hands on the steering wheel, I guess your saying hands free autosteer is like fudging a little over the speed limit and nobody should nag you. Is that your point?�
Jan 14, 2016
Max* I'm just equating your counterargument to AWDteslas counterargument. Basically we agree to a lot of things, like not speeding, like holding the wheel. It would suck if all the rules we agree to, though are constantly broken, all of a sudden become enforced. Like speeding. Or holding the wheel.
FTR: I don't think the nag is that bad, if I have my hands lightly on the wheel it's doesn't exist. I usually drive with one hand on the wheel anyways, so it wont change much for me.
I'm more interested in understanding how and what triggers it (since not everyone has it, and it's not always 3minutes)�
Jan 14, 2016
msnow Got it, thanks.�
Jan 14, 2016
gizmoboy FWIW, I installed while at work today, and my 35 mile drive home didn't seem to have appreciably more nags, and definitely none on a timer.
Nothing more to add except the timed nags must be triggered by some as yet unknown criteria.�
Jan 14, 2016
Max* Hands on or off the wheel?�
Jan 14, 2016
JenniferQ I did my weekly roughly 40 mile r/t today on the same road (IH5) I've been doing it on since AP 7.0. I really tried hard to keep my hands off the wheel and force it to nag me, and I couldn't. (For the lawyers, I almost always keep one hand on the wheel as I actually find it more comfortable; this was for experimental purposes only!) The only nags I got were in the usual predictable spots where the freeway curves and AP seems to always want to know I'm still there. I was very worried at all the drama being posted in this and other threads that I would have to jerk the steering wheel much more than I had in 7.0. Let me assure everyone that is NOT the case. I barely had to touch the wheel for it to remove the "hold...wheel" message.
I am very impressed at the changes that have been made. No diving for the right-hand exits. Yay! Handles curves better and slows down for them better. Still not perfect, but much smoother. I love AP and my Tesla more after every update.
I only wish that in CA, where lane-splitting is allowed by motorcycles, that we had more side and rear cameras that could scoot me over some when they come roaring up on my right side. Maybe in the next gen. As it is, I do not know why I need to see on my IC the pictures of all the cars in front of and to the side of me that I can see anyway?? Maybe there's a future use for this that we haven't been told about yet. Time will tell.
Thanks, Tesla!�
Jan 14, 2016
robert774 Thank you! I was starting to think I am the only one thinking this...�
Jan 14, 2016
Ryan H I admit I have never driven a Tesla, but for me, I think it would give me a bit of peace of mind seeing what the Autopilot sees. Since the driver is fully responsible for what Autopilot does, I think it makes sense that they should give the driver an idea of what Autopilot sees so if something doesn't show up, it gives the driver an advanced warning that something is off and gives them the opportunity to take appropriate action.�
Jan 14, 2016
donv In heavy traffic, I find it nice to know that autopilot is already aware of the car which is about to cut into my lane. That's the purpose that it serves for me, anyway.
�
Jan 14, 2016
JenniferQ Yes, that does make sense. I guess I wish the car could help see things I don't. Baby steps.�
Jan 14, 2016
Ryan H That makes me think of the one photo I saw. I'm pretty sure it was somewhere in this forum where someone took a picture of dense fog with the IC showing a car far ahead that isn't visible through the fog.�
Jan 15, 2016
anxman I'm seeing more nags on certain highways but not others in the Bay Area. 101S has the 5 minute nag but HWY280 doesn't.�
Jan 16, 2016
gizmoboy Off but hovering near.�
Jan 20, 2016
gregsapphire Drove 1300 miles from California to Oregon then back during the past few days. Amazed how autopilot still worked in the rain in the mountains. Would not recommend it though, scary with all the big rigs though. Got the constant nag every 3 minutes if my hands weren't on the wheel. I understand the nag coming up in a curve, I always make sure to keep my hands on the wheel in a bend/curve, just in case. I think it would be fine if the nag was only used in situations where it is ACTUALLY needed (say unsafe conditions, like heavy traffic, bad weather and/or large curves). But on I-5 where I had 100s of miles of straight and flat roads (the perfect conditions I believe), really don't need the nag, I doubt it's hardware limitations of the sensors or processor because in the past on a route I take often, I always got the nag at the same 2 curves on the highway but never on the straights until now (doesn't seem to be "learning" on 680). Did notice that the autopilot did seem smother and more accurate once crossing the boarder back into California and getting closer to the Bay Area. Not sure if that is the autopilot learning talked about in the past. And not sure how the autopilot is learning. If it is learning it is more likely in California where more owners live. Did not see any Teslas while in Oregon. Hope the talked about learning and Autopilot improved roads (HD mapping/GPS), as mentioned by another user would be made clear to users with a solid blue road instead of just the blue lines, so users could feel and be more or less confidante or certain roads. These roads could allow for few to no nags. Hope these limitations are lifted and more UI tweaks in 7.2 like blue road are in the works and implemented. It's sad to see limitations being made across the line because a few stupid owners postings videos on non recommended roads. Sorry for the long and rambling post just had a lot to say. Drive safe all.�
Jan 20, 2016
wk057 I just drove 150 miles today, mostly highway. There is definitely no timed nag in v7.1 (2.9.154). I specifically tested this on a stretch of highway that previously had pretty much zero nags. So, on this stretch I set all of the autopilot dev settings back to normal (re-enabled the +5 MPH non-highway rule, disabled debug stuff, etc) and rebooted. Engaged autopilot. Went roughly 30 miles at 75 MPH with no nags whatsoever. No traffic, so no lane changes and nothing else steering wheel related for the system to infer my alertness from either.
Edit: Definitely a lot of people here claiming timed nags, which is weird since evidence and testing on my end suggests it's not true...�
Jan 20, 2016
andrewket I too thought there was no timed nag, but I'm seeing it now. I drove about 1700 miles this week, 90% of it on AP. Miles of straight highway with a limit of 70, clear day, and I timed it - every 3 minutes.�
Jan 20, 2016
gregsapphire Can you explain what you mean by setting "autopilot dev settings back to normal"? Step by step.�
Jan 20, 2016
wk057 Nope. Some info in my hacking thread, but I'm not going to go into detail here.�
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