Oct 7, 2012
dpeilow Sounds pretty expensive though.�
Oct 8, 2012
RDoc That's clearly a very reasonably result. As crazy as the EU (or any govenment) might be, Balkanizing the charging systems, especially without any clear single standard sounds a stretch.�
Oct 8, 2012
dpeilow Well to be fair to the EU, they've said they won't pick a winner at L3 until 2017.�
Oct 8, 2012
doug For Level 2, they're effectively using adapters anyway. They carry around cables with Type-2 (Mennekes) on one end whatever your car needs on the other end.�
Oct 9, 2012
jcstp the point of vieuw of abb
multiple standards is no problem
no value in slow charging
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Oct 9, 2012
widodh They are obviously talking in their own direction, since they will sell the additional features to the EVSE infrastructue
I also think there is no value in 1-phase 16A charging (Europe!!), every car should at least charge with 11kW (3x16A) to gain any significant range in a short period of time.�
Oct 9, 2012
Kevin Sharpe it's not... remember that the ZOE includes 43kW in a 'mass market' EV so I think that demonstrates what's possible :smile:�
Oct 9, 2012
dpeilow Yes - in the case of a ground up design that is fully integrated into the car's other electronics. But in that very thread you linked to they talk about $1 per Watt, maybe $0.50 best for an aftermarket charger to integrate into the LEAF.�
Oct 10, 2012
RDoc It still seems to me that for a car like the Tesla, there's not a lot of difference between 10kw charging and 40 kw charging. The rate has to be at least Supercharger 90kw or faster to really make a difference for most trips for most people. The below list of scenarios assumes a Tesla-like car with a range of around 250 mi at normal driving speeds. IMHO that is a very different vehicle than one having a range less than 100 mi.
- For normal daily trips, charging is at home overnight so 10 kw is fine.
- For an overnight visit to friends or other non-public charging station location within 250 mi, if there is access to something like a dryer socket, 10 kw is all you can get anyway.
- For a relaxed road trip of 300 to 400 mi/day, driving 5 to 7 hours with no or minimal recharging overnight, 40 kw means over 2 hours for a recharge. That's much too long for most people. An hour is probably OK if it's somewhere to get lunch, but anything longer would be a hard sell to most people for normal trips I'd think.
- For a relaxed overnight at a parking garage or hotel with a public charger, 10 kw should be fine.
- On a long distance trip doing 600 - 800 mi/day, 10 to 12 hours of driving requiring more than one stop, the 40 kw 2 hour charging would be completely unacceptable. Even spending an hour at the second and/or third stop would be a big problem for most people on such a trip. If overnight charging were available, the 10 kw charger would be fine, but I don't think current EV's are what most people would want on such a trip.
- A relaxed trip just beyond the range with overnight charging at the end, say 350 mi total, seems like one of the few normal trips where 40 kw charging would be useful. With 40 kw charging a 50% charge would take around an hour which would be OK for lunch. With 10 kw it's 4 hours which sounds unacceptable to me.
I realize that people currently do long trips stopping for a few hours at KOA etc. during the day, but doubt that most non-enthusiasts are willing to do that.
It seems to me that for normal use, for a Tesla-like car, medium level charging isn't particularly useful.�
Oct 10, 2012
Robert.Boston @RDoc: from here to NYC is 215 miles. Easy enough for the 85kWh battery. Tomorrow I'm going down for lunch and then to give a presentation in the afternoon, finishing up around 5pm, so say 6 hours of charging time. At 10kWh, my battery's not yet full; at 40kWh, it is. Just one example.�
Oct 10, 2012
JRP3 Yeah, I can come up with many scenarios where 40kw charging would be quite useful.�
Oct 10, 2012
RDoc That's true, but even with the 10 kwh charger, you'd probably just make it. Leaving NYC at 5 PM is likely to be an exercise in stop and go traffic until you get well out of the city, so your range would likely be more than 250 mi. if you stay around the speed limit the rest of the way back. Obviously though, more charge would be better.
I'm not saying that there are no trips where it wouldn't be useful, just that such trips are not common.
I don't think most people do many trips where they drive 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 hours, stay for a few hours, then drive back. That's a pretty long day with a lot of driving, particularly through NYC rush hour traffic. I, for one, would avoid making such a trip. Provincetown (150 mi) for the afternoon and back in one day is about as far as I like without an overnight.�
Oct 10, 2012
Robert.Boston I'm flying, actually, because (a) I agree that it's stupid-crazy to drive that much in a day and (b) I'm going on to DC.�
Oct 10, 2012
RDoc 
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Oct 10, 2012
tomsax For the Roadster, 10 kW is about 35 ideal miles per hour of charging (IMPH), 16.8 kW is 60 IMPH. For Model S, 10 kW is about 31 rated miles per hour of charging and 20 kW is 61 RMPH. That's a big difference for medium range trips.
For example, Seattle to Coeur d'Alene, ID, is about 300 miles, definitely beyond the single charge range of the Roadster. To make the drive, we stop in Ellensburg to get a leisurely lunch while we charge at the Tesla HPC (16.8 kW). In 60 to 90 minutes, we have enough charge to make it to Coeur d'Alene. Before we got the HPC there, it required three hours of charging and several owners got impatient with the wait and had close calls making it.
Seattle to Portland is 180 miles on I-5, which makes it just beyond the range of the Roadster at 70 mph. At 55 to 60 mph, it's easy to make the drive on one charge, but that's a horrible drive. Most of I-5 on that stretch is two lanes in each direction with a 70 mph speed limit. The left lane has cars going 70 to 75 mph and the right lane has big trucks going 60 to 65 mph. So sitting in the right lane keeping it at 60 or under, forcing the big trucks to pass, is not fun. In 2010, several of us in the community worked with the Burgerville chain of eco-friendly burger joints to get an HPC installed at their Centralia location, about halfway between Portland and Seattle. Now, we can drive 70 to 75, stop for a break and snack for 20 minutes and pick up enough charge to make it the rest of the way with no concern about speed or range. If there were only a 10 kW station (or worse, one of the anemic 7 kW J stations), that stopover would be a much bigger disruption than it is.
I like having a 20-minute break on a 3-hour drive and an hour break on a 5-6 hour drive (although two 30-45 minute breaks would be better).
Every EV owner thinks their maximum charge rate is the bare minimum required for extended driving, however there's a gigantic difference between 20 kW and 90 kW charging. To get 90 kW charging, you have to wait for Tesla to do it. It's incredibly difficult: expensive to install, complex to get permitted, with considerable demands on the host site. On the other hand, we have proven that a few motivated owners can get 16.8 to 19.2 kW charging installed strategically, inexpensively, and in a timeframe of months not years.
20 kW charging can open up big chunks of the country to EV travel, places that won't see Supercharger (or even CHAdeMO) support for many years.�
Oct 10, 2012
RDoc @tomsax: But with the S, the range at 70 mph is about 220 mi, so it could keep up with traffic and make the 180 mi run easily.
The 300 mi trip is my case 6 where faster charging is useful. However, for most people, an hour and a half stop on what normally would be a 5 hour trip in an ICE car would be quite unwelcome. It's better than a 3 hour stop, but neither sounds very appealing.�
Oct 10, 2012
tomsax RDoc: You're missing the point. Level 2 charging can make trips at or a little beyond the single charge range doable, even reasonable, and the faster the Level 2, the better the result.
If we could click our heels and get Superchargers everywhere overnight, then talking about Level 2 would be silly, but that's not where we are. It's a mistake to dismiss Level 2 charging when it can be very helpful getting to areas that won't be covered by Superchargers for many years.
I'm sure it doesn't apply to everyone, but when a lot of EV owners get used to the pleasures of driving electric, they'll choose to drive electric even if it means a change to their driving habits.
I didn't start out as an EV fanatic. My wife bought our first EV as an experiment in 2008, a used 2002 Toyota RAV4-EV. We weren't sure how well it would work out. We hoped it would handle about 50% of our local driving. With a 100-mile range, it handled all of our local driving, except when we had to be different places at the same time. We sold our Nissan Pathfinder a month or two after getting the RAV. In 2009, we got the Roadster and six weeks later we sold our Acura NSX-T. We held onto our Honda Insight "just in case" until we realized we were never driving it. We sold the Insight, our last gas burner, in mid-2010.
I drive the Roadster far more than I drove the NSX, and I absolutely hate driving gas cars.
This didn't happen because of some genetic or political disposition. Cathy and I would have been perfectly happy with one EV doing half of our local driving. It happened because EVs offer a vastly superior driving experience. I'm perfectly happy to trade a relaxing stop in a six-hour drive for the smooth, instant acceleration of an EV, for the quite ride, for cheap fuel, and for the general satisfaction of driving electric.
I'll rent a gas car when an EV isn't convenient, but that hasn't happened once in the last four years, except for when we're on vacation and we're forced to rent a gas burner.
It's OK if you haven't spent enough time driving electric to understand what I'm talking about. It's even OK if you never get totally hooked on driving electric. But don't dismiss the value of charging below 90 kW for the rest of us.�
Oct 10, 2012
widodh I call this "destination charging".
I regularly take a trip in the Roadster, a 400km round-trip to Amsterdam which involves a lot of highway speeds, so I need to charge in Amsterdam.
With the Roadster on 16A it is doable, but not perfect, I'd rather have the 3x16A (11kW) charging with the Model S.
Most of the time I'm at my destination for a couple of hours before going to the next one.
Why would I stop at a supercharger for 45 minutes while my car can charge outside on Level 2 with 10 ~ 20kW while I'm doing my work?
Quick/Supercharging will co-exist with Level 2 charging.�
Oct 10, 2012
Kipernicus I think both RDoc and tomsax (and wido too) have valid points. There is no one solution, as different scenarios have different optimal solutions, especially when you consider the costs involved. Of course faster is better, but at what cost? While the infrastructure is in its infancy I'll take what I can get, which is why I opted to spring for the twin chargers. Even here in CA there are routes I want to take that don't yet have SC, but do have 70-80A level 2, so having 20kW capacity means less time that the wife and family are annoyed with me and my car :smile:�
Oct 10, 2012
Doug_G In the "real world", Supercharging is likely only to exist along major artery highways. I have no doubt that there will be plenty of need for Level 2 (hopefully higher power Level 2) along secondary highways and at destinations.�
Oct 11, 2012
Cottonwood I beg to differ. Its all a matter of degree. 15 minutes is way better than 2 hours, but 30 minutes is not so bad. Let's look at a long distance drive that I do. When I make the 300 mile trip from Boulder to Pagosa, climbing 3,000 ft and going over multiple passes, I need one top up on the battery. Let's call that 60-90 mile to avoid range anxiety going over the last pass, Wolf Creek.
If it is possible to make a downsized version of a supercharger, or some other DC standard that can charge at 40kW for a reasonable price, I think that it would be very, very useful. A 40kW charger only needs a 200A, Split phase, 240V panel, or a 100A, 3-phase, 208V panel. If the install cost can be cut by a factor of 10 to 40 and get 1/2 charge rate, there is a happy middle ground that can serve many EVs well.
- If I stop at an RV Park, with a 50 Amp, 14-50 outlet, that is 30 mph charging and I need 2-3 hours. These are essentially free to install, because the RV Parks already exist.
- If there is a supercharger on the way, the top up is 15-22 minutes. This is great, but the chances of a supercharger showing up on that route are pretty small. The supercharger install takes the 500 kVA 3-phase transformer and costs something like $400k to install.
- If there is a 40kW charger along the way, I need 30-45 min for the top up. That is way better than the 2-3 hours, not too much worse than the 15-22 min for the supercharger, and may actually be economical in the near term. This can be powered by one 240V, 200A panel, or more taps off the larger panel at an RV Park, and presumably can be built from 4 10kW Tesla chargers ($1,500 each, retail) with the associated control structure done for the supercharger. As a wild guess, $10-15k at an existing RV park.
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Nov 8, 2012
eledille More rumours, supposedly info from Tesla employees, at the Tesla forum. Quite vague, though.
I've experienced exactly the same. When we bought our Think five years ago, it was the best performing EV available in Norway. It's a bit underpowered and not pretty, but a joy to drive nonetheless. Even that little plastic box of a car was able to turn both me and my wife into EV fanatics. I didn't expect that at all, we bought it because of the bus lane access and congestion charge exemption. All of a sudden both of us are trying our best to avoid the gas burner, which I used to be rather proud of. Now my wife is talking about selling the fossil to get another EV while we're waiting for Model S.
Several times per year we drive 435 km to visit her parents. There are two mountain passes. A 43 kW, or even 22 kW charge point somewhere along that route would be very, very useful, half an hour of 43 kW would be enough to complete the trip without worry. If I had to settle for 22 kW, I would still much rather take two half-hour breaks and drive a Model S than drive a gasser.�
Jan 2, 2013
TEG When I got the LEAF there weren't really many good options for J1772 charging in San Francisco.
So, I would not use the LEAF to drive up from the Palo Alto area to San Francisco out of fear that I might not be able to make it back.
Fast forward to now and there are J1772s scattered around SF, so I have made many trips there when I knew I would be near a J1772 spot for at least an hour. So, going to a movie, a meeting, convention, visiting a friend all work out now even with slow J1772 charging because I just need a little bit extra to have enough charge to make the trip back.
So, like tomsax says, the slow(ish) charging can be helpful if making a short range EV work for slightly longer trips if they are put in strategic "destination" locations.�
Jan 5, 2013
Brian H Yeah, there seems to be insatiable demand for that "finishing touch"!�
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