Thứ Năm, 1 tháng 12, 2016

What charge port connector? part 2

  • Oct 10, 2011
    TEG
    http://www.calodges.org/ecrl/4th Quarter 2007-W.pdf
    �
  • Oct 10, 2011
    doug
    I appreciate you trying to preserve a sense of order. Those posts moved here (your link will still work).
    �
  • Oct 10, 2011
    AndrewBissell
    I recently for the first time handled a CHAdeMO cable on a Leaf. I was surprised how small and light it was. My impression was it was about the same thickness and weight as my MC240 cable and thinner/lighter than a Roadster HPC cable.
    �
  • Oct 10, 2011
    doug
    I don't think I said the connector was silver. If I did I was only referring to the hue.

    Thinking about materials, though I wonder how many make/break connection cycles it's expected to last.
    �
  • Oct 10, 2011
    TEG
    Maybe it was VFX...
    What charge port connector?
    �
  • Oct 10, 2011
    VolkerP
    It will grow HEAAAVVY in your hands during that 45 minutes... intended by design, makes you free up that expensive fast charger.
    What is the guy looking at so anxious? A running meter? Uh oh, electricity hitting 490Yen/carat?
    �
  • Oct 10, 2011
    Norbert
    I'd think a thicker cable is fine as long as the end of it doesn't try to eat you. ;)

    That's probably why the part of the connector going into the plug is quite long, and has the triangular mechanical connection in the center. The connector and the plug need to be of solid material, of course.
    �
  • Oct 10, 2011
    Norbert
    Good, then a 90 kW cable should't be that much worse (in case Tesla can't make it thinner, relatively speaking).

    I think the CHAdeMO connector is a bit less unwieldy than the combo connectors (but then, it requires a second plug for Level 2).
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    VolkerP
    The Tesla Connector resembles the IBM PS/2 microchannel architecture:
    * technically superior
    * no legacy design elements
    * protected & proprietary standard, Tesla controls access for competitors

    So why did microchannel go down the drain?
    * competing standards already established (ISA bus)
    * vendors and third party suppliers shy of supporting additional standard
    * IBM didn't have the market penetration to make customers switch (though they "invented" the PC)

    I do hope Tesla either has more luck in establishing a standard or, by the time things go awry, they make the switch to support established standards: J1772, Mennekes, and CHAdeMO.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Norbert
    As long as Tesla does indeed install a charging infrastructure for traveling, how could it fail? Do you think it will keep people from buying a Model S? Consider how many Roadsters and Leafs were sold in the US without much of an infrastructure. And once there are thousands of Model S, what would keep their owners from using 90 kW chargers? And once they tell everyone else how they can travel with less waiting time at chargers, why would that not speak in favor of the Model S?
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Kevin Sharpe
    We need to see the Tesla DC Charging Station on the ground and in locations where we want to charge. Until that network exists across Europe then I cannot use the Model S in mainland Europe (because it does not support 3-Phase) and I cannot travel more than ~200 miles in the UK because a family of 7 do not want to hang about for hours waiting to recharge on the HPC or "mennekes" networks.

    If I'm unable to use the Model S as an EV 'fanboy' then large numbers of 'mainstream' car drivers who wish to undertake 200+ mile trips will not consider the car. Given that the DC Charging Station network is critical we need to see locations being announced and hardware being installed before the car arrives in Europe... from experience I know that these networks take years to build.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Kevin Sharpe
    If the pricing structure is wrong then people will choose not to use the sites.... I think that would be a failure
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    VolkerP
    No point in reasoning with people from a nation that's used to have different sockets for every electric appliance. I stared in disbelief on the list of NEMA sockets for which you can buy an adapter for the UMC (for $100 each).
    The problems of ZCW and Ecotality to install charge points, even with sufficient funding or a low-cost approach, have been reported here. They indicate that Tesla will face serious obstacles in providing such infrastructure. They managed to put amazing cars on the road. Does this qualify for trying to establish yet another charge port standard?
    Yes I am in serious doubt if Model S is the right car for road tripping Europe. And I have no arguments to anybody questioning that subject, except what you state: "Don't worry, when the car arrives, Tesla will supply the infra structure."
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Norbert
    Perhaps you need to wait then until that happens... however is there an option your Roadster gives you which the Model S doesn't?

    Which "pricing structure"? Earlier this year Elon said that in the beginning, the DC chargers will be free.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Norbert
    Based on what I read on this forum, NEMA 14-50 is the single most important one (other than 120V), and that is (AFAIK) included in the UMC.

    First, I haven't said that it will be there from day one, on the contrary, I have said it may not.

    Second, if installation is so difficult, then how is Nissan supposed to be able to install CHAdeMO chargers in no time all over Europe? (They already have a certain number at a number of their dealers in the UK.)
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    widodh
    So, let's go and setup a second fast charge network for Tesla only?

    If you have a Nissan, here is your list with charging stations. With a Tesla, please go to this location! Seriously? I don't get it! It might be because I work in IT and I'm a big fan of Open Source software and Open Standards.

    I'm already getting confused with al these new 'standards', how do we think new EV owners are going to work their way through this? You won't be able to sell that to them.

    But to get back ontopic.

    Do I like the new connector? No, I don't. Yes, it's smooth and small. Do I really care? No, it's just a plug. As long as the protocol it uses is the same, I'll make a cable or someone can make an adapter.

    But the idea new of putting a whole new DC protocol in the S and not being able to charge at the existing CHAdeMO sites really scares me! Also, the frustration of being at a 3-phase charging station, knowing your car could charge there 3 times faster will be huge. But even worse, somebody had the stupid idea of re-inventing the wheel and being "Apple like" will probably cause more frustration.

    The CHAdeMO chargers in Europe are not being installed only by Nissan, but by various companies and cities.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Kevin Sharpe
    I have decided to do just that and will advise the same to anyone who needs to travel in Europe or more than 200 miles a day fully loaded.

    I'm prepared to 'tolerate' long waits while charging on road trips because I'm often alone or can change my schedule to meet the cars requirements. The Model S is a completely different proposition and if it wants to compete with ICE cars in Europe then it requires a DC Fast Charge network.

    Even if the DC Chargers are free to start no site will subsidise 90kW charging indefinitely because the economics don't stack up... it's one thing to swap an HPC charge for a good meal at a 4* restaurant but something completely different if you're stopping for coffee or a snack at a service station.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Norbert
    I'm not a salesman, I'm a customer/future owner of an EV, and that is indeed what I want to buy. Small, elegant, ease of use, and last but not least, 90 kW.

    An adapter from what to what? To charge a Leaf with 90 kW, or a Model S with 50 kW? Problem solved?

    Who says there won't be a CHAdeMO adapter? Everyone here thinks it will be likely (except for the "standard" proponents who don't want a Tesla connector in the first place).

    The same would apply to a Leaf (and probably a Volt/Ampera), actually even more so.

    Which means ?
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Kevin Sharpe
    we need to see Tesla state that and deliver a working adapter so that we can road trip when the car arrives in Europe

    hundreds of CHAdeMO locations that can be used for charging by the time that the Model S hits the streets. This will almost certainly include many of the service stations on the UK road network making it possible for a Leaf to travel anywhere in the UK and fast charge.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Norbert
    The same applies to CHAdeMO except that customers will be more willing to pay for 90 kW charging than for 50 kW charging, and Model S customers are more likely to charge a larger amount which makes it more worthwhile, needing less time to do so.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Norbert
    And in the meantime act as if it isn't possible in principle, and bash the Tesla connector system for it?

    If I were Tesla, seeing that attitude, I'd explore all other options before bringing the Model S to Europe.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    VolkerP
    The choice between Tesla Fast DC and CHAdeMO standards is not a choice between 90kW and 50kW. Tesla rates its current Model S plug and future DC charger at 90kW. The CHAdeMO spec goes up to 100kW. EVSEs for CHAdeMO are installed with 50kW because there is no car that can take advantage of more, right now. Tesla could install their 90kW charging network with CHAdeMO plugs if they want.

    The point in CHAdeMO is, it's far easier to get one installed because it is an established standard and there are cars that can use it. Go ask any govt for subsidies for a proprietary charging standard - I expect them to decline to spend tax payer money. Ask any restaurant/shop/mall owner to install Tesla Fast DC. What if they already have/plan CHAdeMO?

    Yes, in the UK there is the first country-wide HPC network. Model S requires an additional adapter to use it, and the second on board 10KW charger to make full use of 70A. That is, if the are not converted to J1772 in the mean time. Then, another adapter is required.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Kevin Sharpe
    I've seen nothing which officially says that Tesla will support CHAdeMO or anything other than their new proprietary DC standard. Do you have a link to something that says different?
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Kevin Sharpe
    Given that Tesla seem to have backed away from their verbal commitment on 3-Phase are you not concerned that the Model S maybe unusable as a long range car in Europe?
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Kevin Sharpe
    I agree that people will pay for fast charging. However, that charging still needs to be in convenient locations because people will not wish to drive miles out of their way to charge.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    widodh
    To charge my Model S at locations which have the Type 2 connector (AC) which is being used in Europe. I need a adapter to charge there.

    As long as there is no conformation from Tesla that there will be one, we shouldn't expect on to be there.

    The big difference is that the Volt/Ampera are not real BHEV's. They have a 16kWh battery which you charge in a few hours. To short? The ICE kicks in :) The battery of the Model S will be 90kWh, much more to charge.

    That it is not only Nissan carrying the load here. How do we expect Tesla to do the same? But let's keep the discussion about Tesla's DC network here: Tesla DC charging network.

    What I don't like about the new connector:
    * Propriety
    * No 3-phase support
    * No specs about the DC charge protocol available
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Norbert
    The range of the Model S is sufficient to cover most driving with home/office charging. The occasions where people need to charge outside of that range are in most cases those where you really want 90 kW (if not more), and also because of the larger range, the Model S will need fewer charging points.

    The situation in Europe doesn't seem any worse than in the US, and here in the US, I expect I will be well served by Tesla's range and charging options, *especially* for road trips.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    widodh
    I think we will keep disagreeing about this topic :) Please do keep in mind that the legal speeds on the highway here are 120 ~ 130km/h (~80mph), that eats battery.

    But, also read this post from tomsax again, he has some really good points: What charge port connector?

    We are really going way offtopic here, let's stick to the connector only and not divert to other topics. I've said my thing about the connector, how I think it's wrong to come up with a non-standardized connector.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    vfx
    No, they could never start charging for things that used to be free. Like parking, or ATMs or fishing or ...land....
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    vfx
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Norbert
    Possible. :)

    You must have misunderstood: Whatever the speed, an EV with a larger range needs fewer charging points for a long trip.

    As far as I can tell, Tom is arguing for a 20 kW network in the US. But which car except the Roadster (and the Model S with that option) would take advantage of it, and so, who will build such a network? The Level 2 chargers currently being installed max out at around 7 kW. I see an advantage in having 20 kW destination charging in addition to a DC network, but not instead of it, and I don't see that happening without any other EVs announced which could use it.

    And in Europe, the time where you can just plug in for free at any 3-phase plug in any substantial amounts will sooner or later be followed by some mechanism to either charge money or limit access to customers. As soon as the number of EVs increases noticeably, you won't have enough free 22 kW plugs for all cars to hop from plug to plug, in any case, so someone will need to install something. Will Nissan and GM switch to Mennekes? Will there be J1772? What exactly will happen when? Not clear yet, but that future does not exist yet.

    The connector and the infrastructure go together, and discussing one implies discussing the other, especially when it comes to the question of standard vs. innovation. However we have done a good amount of that, and could agree to disagree at this point if you want. I suspect the discussion will continue, with others, here or elsewhere.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    tomsax
    In that post, I was mostly arguing against things I've been told by Tesla people based on information like the graph from 2009 in JB's slide show. I encountered a bunch of lame arguments in 2010 when I was trying to convince Tesla they needed to support J1772 charging for the Roadster, some of which was popping up in this thread.

    My points relevant to this thread are...

    • Low power (3 to 10 kW) Level 2 charging is great for overnight charging at home, but that doesn't diminish the greater utility of high power (19.2 kW) Level 2 charging on the road.
    • Every EV should support 19.2 kW charging, or whatever the C/2 limit is for that car's battery pack.
    • Level 2 infrastructure is cheap enough that it can be community funded. (We've lit up all of the interstates in Washington and Oregon with less than 100 Roadster owners. Imagine what 10,000 Model S owners can make happen, especially if it also benefits 200,000 LEAF owners.)
    • We don't need a new proprietary connector to support 19.2 kW Level 2 charging.
    • We don't need a new proprietary connector to support 90 kW charging, CHAdeMO allows for 100 kW.
    • We don't need a new proprietary connector adding a barrier to using 50 kW CHAdeMO charging stations.
    • It's orders of magnitude more expensive and logistically difficult to set up DC fast charging. Doing it twice is more than twice as hard.

    I think the Tesla connector is cool, and even just did an interview where I told a journalist I thought the Model S connector shows what a monstrosity the proposed SAE AC/DC combo connector is, but I don't think Tesla is best serving their Model S customers by using a proprietary connector which is only a significant benefit if they actually build a comprehensive, worldwide fast charge network.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    TEG
    There will be a battle emerging for the low end of the market where lowest price drives higher volume.
    Higher current chargers are more expensive so there is a reason why some manufacturers may chose not to put a fully capable charger onboard.
    Tesla also mentioned the extra weight. If you have high speed DC offboard for Roadtrips and < 10kW is fine for home use there is some merit in the argument of avoiding the extra weight and cost. At least Tesla plans to offer the 20kW upgrade for those that really need it (or at least think they do.)

    With that said, the current trend of 3.3kW (e.g., LEAF) is just lame. Everything should at least be 6.6kW since that is basically the lowest common denominator EVSE you can expect to find most places.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Kevin Sharpe
    I think a significant number of the host sites will remain free for ever... all host sites want customers and electricity is cheap enough that they will be happy to supply it in return for some other paid service - eat, drink, sleep, play, park, etc.

    The 32A 7kW 1-Phase "mennekes" Charging Stations that we donate typically resell for �250 ($390). A 63A 44kW 3-Phase version will be released early next year and will resell for less than �500 ($780). Once these products hit serious production volumes then you can expect the cost to halve. I fully expect that we will see "mennekes" Charging Stations everywhere.

    It really doesn't matter because it's all the same protocol with a different physical connector. So yesterday I plugged a Leaf (J1772) into a "mennekes" Charging Station using a simple 'dumb' cable....
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    vfx
    Funny how charging is mirroring the mistakes made with EVs themselves.

    Try to please the masses by offering a low cost product that no one wants. Then Tesla comes along and says a quality product is the mover.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Norbert
    While I agree on this "if" (at least to a large degree), I otherwise think Tesla's connector is a significant improvement in terms of facilitating customer acceptance outside the enthusiast/early-adaptor group. We'll be living with these technologies for a long time, and just as Nissan and GM decided not to use the Roadster connector, I think it is the right decision for Tesla to their superior all-in-one connector.

    Foremost, for electric cars with a range of the Model S, it is absolutely the right thing, outside home/office charging, to focus on DC fast charging below 1 hour. You appear to mention this only in passing, and that is where in my opinion you are missing the point.

    Regarding your other points:

    - With 10 kW, theModel S Level 2 charging is still 3x the Leaf, and 1.5x the Ford Focus and future Leaf. Level 2 stations currently installed have mostly 7 kW only.

    - I cannot say anything about whether every EV should have 19.2 kW charging since I don't know the cost factor and other implications it would have. However there isn't an existing 19 KW network of significant coverage, and while I respect the community efforts being made, they don't seem to be something Tesla could rely on for future mass-market cars.

    - Level 2 infrastructure is cheap in so far as the electricity supplied is of small amounts. Cars with increasingly large ranges will need small amounts in decreasing priority, except overnight.

    - Level 2 connector: I'd prefer using Tesla's connector at home and for the UMC, and don't mind an adapter for the few cases where I might use one elsewhere (currently can't think of any, knowing my previous ICE driving habits). I would in fact have had no use for external Level 2 charging, other than overnight, in my whole life. This may be easily be different for Leaf and Volt owners with their much smaller ranges.

    - 90 kW charging: CHAdeMO allows 100 kW so far only on paper as far as I know. No support can currently be expected from Nissan, Tesla would have to build 100 kW chargers itself, and would risk these (in principle) more expensive chargers then being occupied by Leafs using them at 50 kW only, which would have a chance of not being cost effective. Using CHAdeMO might involve fees and mean that Tesla (obviously a very innovative company) would be bound by consortium decision in the future. As one can tell from the Tesla connector, Tesla is going for different designs than this consortium.

    - using 50 kW CHAdeMO: good point, although in the US none exists yet, and Tesla so far does not have much catch up to do. ANother question is if Nissan is fine with Tesla cars using CHAdeMo chargers (they might have conditions not seen favorable by Tesla). However, with Tesla building a 90 kW network, I consider this of secondary importance. Personally, I would welcome Nissan or other car companies using the Tesla connector for future 90 kW capable cars, though, and them building a joint network of 90 kW. AGain, given the capability of the Model S, a 50 kW network does not seem all that interesting for Model S owners.

    - logistically difficult: The kind of thing Elon might excel at.

    Altogether, the Leaf is a great electric car, and I'm happy that it exists and hope its owners enjoy it.
    Nevertheless, I have both larger expectations as well as more confidence in Tesla.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Norbert
    Except for the DC ability, Tesla's connector is also J1772 electrically. So if that doesn't matter, then what matters? Or did you not know that?
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    GSP
    "... if Nissan is fine with Tesla cars using CHAdeMo chargers"

    The nice thing about standard connectors is that Nissan has nothing to say about who uses ChadeMo chargers. Anyone with a ChadeMo equipped car is on equal footing. Just like GM can't say who is allowed to buy Shell gasoline, or that their customers have to buy their gas from Shell.

    EV charging station providers want all EVs to be able to use their station. EV owners want to be able to use any charging station. Propritary connectors throw a wrench in the works. Even at home I will want my new EV, or friends EVs to use the same charging station as my old EV.

    The Model S connector looks great from a usability perspective, but it is PROPRIETARY, a four letter word.

    GSP
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    Norbert
    As a customer, yes, but in order to get access to CHAdeMO protocol specifications etc, to implement CHAdeMO, it appears one has to be a member of CHAdeMO (not free) and is then bound by whatever rules they have (which I don't know).

    (Which I guess means that CHAdeMO is not a completely open standard. Membership also needs to be approved at some level, at which I'd guess conditions can be imposed.)
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    GSP
    As you point out, the important thing for us customers is the interoperability between various gas pumps and automobiles, not the process to design and build the gas pump or inlet. Same for charging connectors and protocols.

    It costs money to buy SAE recommended practices and design and tool connectors, same for ChadeMo, same for gas pumps, but anyone can do it if they want to offer products to us. This allows us many more choices for fuel and automobiles than proprietary solutions do.

    GSP
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    William13
    It is still way too early in the evolution of the electric car for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth on this thread. However I am concerned about who is Beta (twice the quality) and who is VHS, or who is blue ray versus HD DVD. I however think that we are talking laser disk versus DVD.

    The electrical engineer who is working on the chargers told me that they are working on adaptors for both J1772 and CHadoMo. He specifically did not promise they would be supplied. He strongly indicated that car owners might get adaptors from third party vendors. I speculate this was to avoid potential liability issues if they don't make it perfect.
    �
  • Oct 11, 2011
    vfx
    Well that's just not his job.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    widodh
    Tesla never released the Roadster connector, it was never standardized. So nobody was able to use it :) As a Roadster owner you couldn't even get your hands on one unless you bought a whole new charging cord.

    We are really going to keep disagreeing on this point ;-) (See my comments below on the next quote)

    Let me shed some light on my situation, as a European. I drive a lot, long distances through different countries. I'm convinced it is possible with a Model S without DC charging (although I really like 50/90kW charging!). When I'm driving around I usually have various stops of multiple hours.

    DC charging won't be needed, but higher power L2 will. I don't want to make this a "3-phase discussion" again, so I'll try to stay away from that. But simple fact is, we'll be limited to 16A single-phase in MOST of the times when the Model S will be sent to Europe the way it was presented.

    I take the ferry to the UK quite often, onboard the ferry they offer 3x16A (11kW) or 3x32A (22kW) charging. The trip is about 5 ~ 7 hours (depends on the line I take), so with 11kW I could reach a high SoC. I won't be fully depleted when I get there.

    When I'm in the UK I'll arrive at my hotel and charge there again, but that hotel could easily be about 400km from the ferry. A overnight charge with higher power (~10kW) would get me filled up for the next day.

    Sure, I could visit a fast charging station with 90kW the next day and not charge at the hotel. But I would be wasting 45 min there while my car could have charged overnight. What's the point for the fast charger there?

    The next day I play my tournament and drive back to the ferry and charge on the ferry again. This way I did a +/- 1000km trip in about 36 hours without using a fast charger, only using Level 2 charging at the points where I was for a few hours.

    Here it really depends on what your intentions you have with the Model S.

    I live on a "remote" location, so whenever I need to go somewhere I'm looking at a at least 300km round-trip. Possible with the Model S, but also when I'm driving at 130 ~ 140km/h with A/C or heater on? Could be though :)

    Here we are seeing the difference between Europe and the US again. In Europe the CHAdeMo chargers are "popping" out of the ground. I want to be able to use them, even at 50kW. 50kW is better than 0kW, isn't it?

    I won't be arriving fully depleted at these stations and I probably do not need to leave with a 100% SoC all the time. I might just only need 25kWh to get to my destination. That would mean a 30 min charge at 50kW, fine with me! With the WiFi access point probably being available in the Model S I could kill some time by working my way through my INBOX or spamming at this forum.


    Tesla should not be dictating how or where we charge the car. The world is divers, so many different parts of the world where various conditions ask for other charging habits/methods. The car should not limit you in that, it should support the driver/owner in the best way to get the maximum out of the car.

    I just want to get rid of my ICE!
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    Kevin Sharpe
    In Europe the cable that connects the Charging Station to the car is the 'adapter'. So most people will be using the Mennekes-to-J1772 cable, Mennekes-to-Roadster cable, Mennekes-to-Mennekes cable, and possibly in the future Mennekes-to-Model_S cable. This works just fine because everyone is using the same communications protocol and standard electrical systems, so it's just a simple mechanical issue.

    The first problem with the Tesla Model S connector in Europe is the lack of 3-Phase support. Now as an American you may not give a damn about 3-Phase, but for the people in mainland Europe this is a BIG issue because it restricts the Model S to 16A (maybe 32A) 1-Phase charging in the vast majority of locations. Think about this for a minute.... can you see the Model S being used on road-trips if it can only charge at 16A?

    The second problem with the Tesla Model S connector in Europe is the proprietary DC interface that prevents the car from using the CHAdeMO DC Infrastructure that is on the ground. Now I understand that people here believe that Tesla will develop a CHAdeMO adaptor or license third parties to build one, but I'm surprised they have not already done this and announced such a plan at the beta event... IMO it's just more likely that they believe they can build a proprietary DC Infrastructure for a few million dollars... and that's where I will sit back and watch with interest.

    If the Model S supported 3-Phase and CHAdeMO today I would have been one of the first UK drivers of the Signature Series. I was looking forward to completing record breaking End to End, London to Edinburgh, and Gumball 3000, and continuing to promote Tesla as I do every day of the week. Unfortunately for me, the current charging options offered on the Model S simply make many of these events impossible when the car launches here.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    widodh
    For the people across the pond:

    GEM_3385.JPG

    Here you see how we connect. There is no cable coming out of the charging station, we plug a cable into the station and into the car. Here we created our own Mennekes<>Roadster cable. Later this will be a Mennekes<>ModelS cable, not such a big deal. (Except for the 3-phase ;-) )
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    vfx
    I don't want to carry charge cables with me. A bag-o-adapters is ok. Putting a wet muddy cable in my clean car is not acceptable.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    Doug_G
    I'm fine with the connector as long as you can connect to NEMA 5-15, 5-20, 14-50, J1772, and DC fast charge, without having to buy a whack of extra high-cost adapters.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    Kevin Sharpe
    David Peilow and I recently found a HPC cable covered in oil, and the last HPC site I visited had the cable in the dirt by the side of the road. Personally, I like having the cable under my control and have no problem wiping it down before putting it in the car (as I do now with my Roadster cables).
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    vfx
    The woman in the fancy white dress will not like this.

    Barrier to adoption.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    TEG
    Just theft (for copper) and vandalism makes me think the "carry your own cable" solution is better. Plus, with different vehicles needing socket adapters now, having the cable be the adapter makes sense. But I think that "train has left the station" in the USA, and we will likely continue to have a shared cable left as part of the EVSE. Roadster owners are probably more touchy than most about needing to carry their own cables just due to lack of storage space.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    dpeilow
    The Dale Vince "Nemesis" car has a retracting cable. The mechanism, which I believe they are patenting, means that it is not coiled up inside.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    tomsax
  • Oct 12, 2011
    dpeilow
    We're talking about it in the other thread. It can't be the SAE combo plug as it supports three phase, it must be the Mennekes combo plug...
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    doug
    Right, like I said before, the Europeans have their own Mennekes combo plug that will use the same signaling as the SAE J1772 combo plug. (This announcement just confirms that.) It seems to me Tesla will also use the SAE signaling, so I wouldn't be so concerned about the DC side of things. If CHAdeMO to SAE adapters become popular, a CHAdeMO to Tesla DC adapter can use the signal translation electronics.

    Tesla has a year after the US Model S launch to get things right for the European market. I sincerely hope and expect they're have a 3-phase solution (i.e. connector) by then. I just think it's unnecessary to have a different connector in different markets when you could have one that does it all. Four smaller pins of diameter D have the same contact area of two larger pins of diameter 2D.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    Norbert
    If says it will be ready by mid-2012. But I wonder whether that will be true for the DC part as well.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    Norbert
    Mennekes uses the four small pins only up to 70 kW. Above that it is the huge combo.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    TEG
  • Oct 12, 2011
    Norbert
    That's perhaps simply because they didn't want to encourage people playing with fire... but perhaps Tesla was already anticipating the need for something including DC.

    I've lived long enough in Germany, and travelled all over western Europe, both driving and with others, to know that your statement about DC is not true. Not at all. That's a case where one says "it's not even wrong". Using a ferry is certainly not a typical thing, even if some may do it regularly. As long as you are dismissive about DC to that degree, there is really no point in arguing about anything related to charging.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    TEG
    At the factory tour, someone from Tesla told me it was because they were worried about a shortage of components. Apparently there was only one vendor providing parts, and they only agreed to provide enough for Tesla's direct needs. They said if others tried to use those same parts it could have caused a supply problem for them. At least that was the story that was fed to me.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    dpeilow
    Amphenol, supply problems? Pull the other one.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    doug
    What's your point? If Tesla says they can do 90kW on the 2 pins they've shown, then they should also be able to do it by doubling up on four pins of half the diameter. The only reason this matters is that Tesla should really offer an on-board 3-phase solution for European customers which means they should design a connector capable of 3-phase.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    doug
    Not very likely.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    dpeilow
    I've almost lost track of what you are arguing about now but it's getting tedious. Widodh was using the ferry as an example, not THE example.

    You seem to be arguing for the sake of it. Please just accept that many Europeans are asking for this from many different countries, they know what they need and what they can hook up to. And most of all, if they get what they are asking for it is not going to affect you anyway. End of.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    VolkerP
    Let's all agree with Norbert that residential DC networks are great and he will generously concede 3 phase support on us.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    jkirkebo
    Why four pins ? Three should be enough, L1+L2+L3 for delta connection. N is only needed for wye, why would we need that ?
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    Doug_G
    Funny. The new PEM cooling fans have limited supply. The new HID headlights have limited supply. Makes you wonder where they get these things from.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    VolkerP
    I second that. The two large pins serve either AC 1 phase 80 amps or DC 200 amps. To add 3 phase 32A support (22kW), Tesla could add one medium sized pin to the Model S connector.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    Norbert
    I might have missed what you were trying to say, but my point is that the Mennekes standard already uses the 4 pins potentially for DC by using them in two pairs, and the spec allows doing this only up to 70 kW (2*35 kW), whereas Tesla will use 90 kW. So are you saying Tesla should modify the pins, to allow them to carry 2*45 kW? I'm not an electrical engineer, but I guess it is not just a question of the diameter, however Tesla might be limited in what it can do in terms of modifying the pins without breaking compatibility.

    EDIT: Guess you are suggesting Tesla should not just add 1 pin for 3-phase, but 2, and then use all four for DC. Not sure why you would suggest that, though.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    Norbert
    Mostly I'm arguing for the value of 90 kW fast charging in Europe as much as everywhere else, and I'll argue as long as everyone else argues.

    Use a better example then.

    I don't have to answer that.

    I don't just accept anything. You'll have to convince me. Besides, this is not a 3-phase thread.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    mpt
    I don't think that four pins = 2 x two pins. If the current is split between two pins all is equal but if one gets dirty and presents resistance the current swings to the other pin overloading it.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    Norbert
    I don't mind if you all agree with me (and/or with Tesla), but what do you mean with "residential"? I don't see fast-charging as being primarily related to anything "residential".
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    Norbert
    I should add that I was responding Tomsax's post, which wasn't about Europe. I don't know why Widodh then responded to my post point by point in a European context.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    doug
    I was just making a math point. Sure you can get by with just 3 pins too. Though, four pins just allows things to be a bit more symmetric and versatile. No unused contact area during DC operation. Also there was some talk of using a separate charger for each phase (sub-optimal, I know). Anyhow three is fine too.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    doug
    Easy enough to engineer around. But like I said, I'd just prefer they made one connector instead of introducing yet another one when they launch in Europe. Four power pins makes it more easily directly adaptable with Mennekes, but whatever. Just as long as they have a solution.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    TEG
    By the way, the Tesla announcement of the small Tesla proprietary new Model S socket reminded me of the early Volt prototypes where they seemed to be toying with some smaller, non J1772 plug/socket:
    [?IMG]
    I gather, whatever that was, never came to be.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    Norbert
    Who knows if eventually they'll even use european electronics (by Bosch, Brusa or other third party supplier) for the charger (outside part), once a european standard is actually established. But currently it seems mostly paperwork, they might still change shapes, protocols and whatnot, so Tesla may need to do something that's useful independently, at least until european car manufacturers actually start building EVs.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    tomsax
    That's funny! When I was trying to figure out why Tesla was so adamant about using their plug instead of converting Roadsters to use J1772 when it was approved in January, 2010, I was told by someone who claimed to have inside knowledge that Tesla had to buy a huge number of those connectors in order to get a good unit price. They had to keep using those heavy, non-standard, unwieldy things to keep from just eating them.

    Of course that doesn't explain why they refused to sell them to anyone at anything resembling a reasonable price.
    �
  • Oct 12, 2011
    Doug_G
    Probably because they really, really didn't want to have to order another batch.
    �
  • Oct 13, 2011
    zdre
    You get lower DC voltage (but higher current can be pulled) in phase-to-phase connections (total ideal power output remains the same). I'm sure Tesla can engineer something with just 3 pins, but I don't know how the use of Neutral affects efficiency.
    �
  • Oct 13, 2011
    qwk
    Why does almost every thread turn into a 3-phase argument fest??? I'm getting tired of it. I think that almost everyone can agree that if Musk is smart, he will give Europeans what they want and have the engineers incorporate 3-phase charging into the Model S. If he doesn't, Tesla will not get too many European sales. End of story.
    �
  • Oct 13, 2011
    Kevin Sharpe
    maybe that's a measure of it's importance to European drivers (and by implication to Tesla's future IF European sales are important to the company and stock holders).
    �
  • Oct 13, 2011
    TEG
    Somewhat oversimplifying and paraphrasing, but I got the impression from some of the TM staff that they view the situation like this:

    #1: People overestimate how much power they really need for home charging, given that the car will likely be parked for 10 hours or so.
    #2: People will not be happy even with 3-phase AC for Road trips. They want higher speed DC charging when forced to stop and wait.

    So their focus is on 10kW (home/overnight) and 90kW (road trip pit stop) and not so much on anything in between.
    In neither of those cases do they need 3 phases going into the vehicle.
    �
  • Oct 13, 2011
    GSP
    But, they will need a 3-phase home charger at least to get 10 kW home/overnight charging in Europe. And, what is the best strategy for getting a high speed DC charging network? I don't think having a separate network for every make of automobile will win out in the end.

    GSP
    �
  • Oct 13, 2011
    qwk
    Exactly.

    What Tesla needs to do is offer a 3-phase charging option, and price it accordingly. The one problem I forsee with that is, people would whine about it costing too much which takes Tesla back to square one.
    �
  • Oct 13, 2011
    doug
    Believe me, I know what you mean. Been trying to keep the 3-phase stuff contained, but seeing how this is a charge connector thread it's relevant here (to an extent).

    But like GSP said, many customers need 3phase to get even 10kW (not sure why some are finding that hard to understand). With only single phase some will be limited to a paltry 3.6kW to charge that 85 kWh (or so) battery pack. That would be nuts.

    And we still don't really know what Tesla is doing with DC fast charge. Best I can tell they were charging the Alphas and the Betas with this:
    [?IMG]
    http://www.rema-shanghai.com/en/Product.asp?ArticleID=34&Action=Show

    A temporary solution, I'm sure.

    Right, the problem is the connector they've shown can't support 3-phase. Which brings us back to why the Europeans are "whining" about it.
    �
  • Oct 13, 2011
    TEG
    So, I guess my point is that you might get more traction with TM arguing the point that 3 phase charging is needed even for adequate home / overnight charging.
    Most of the "up in arms" shouting has been over the need for roadside 3 phase which I gather Tesla thinks is a waste of time when you really want 90kW there.

    Some stats on how many European homes can only offer 3.6kW ([email�protected]?) max from one phase might be useful to be the main point of argument, not the need to support the full 63A Mennekes 3-phase. Perhaps they really should offer an alternative 2nd 10kW charger option as a 3 Phase 3x16A with a different connector on the other side of the vehicle for those European customers who have low current single phase home power, and really do need to use all 3 of their phases during overnight charging.

    Man, this whole thing has me "sucked in" as well, and it doesn't even affect me directly at all...
    �
  • Oct 13, 2011
    Eberhard
    JB Straubel told me finally, the Model S will support 3-ph only via DC fast charging.

    The discussions is not only for Europe. this is for america as well. i am surprised how widespread 3-ph is in your country too. if you have the chance to charge at work, you would like it. How do you think is teslas 90kW DC charger being powered? with 240V 400A? surly not. Its 277V/400V 120A 3-ph.
    i only hope, that Model S will not get the homologation for Europe without the "standard" mennekes 3-ph port. i still thinking about canceling my reservation for the signature edition if not. i upgraded my home powers supply from 3-ph 32A to 3-ph 48A to charge my Roadster with 32A single phase. if have not chance to get 100A single phase. i am tired to charge my roadster 6 hour when i could be done in 2 hours while being on a long distance trip.
    But as a shareholder of tesla, i have to tell the CEO and CTO to do the best for the company to sell as much cars as possible. ignoring the situation in Europe may cause damage to the company. Sooner are later even America has to improve and upgrade the grid to best best technical standard. We are just moving towards HG� = Very high voltage DC transmission to transport power over thousands of km with little loss connecting Norge to Germany. Elon fires Rockets into space but fails to do a simple 3-ph 10kW charger. additional cost - none.
    �
  • Oct 13, 2011
    Eberhard
    10kW is 16A 3-ph in Europe. This socket is already available on 500+ charging station throughout Europe. 32A sockets are quite rare, you have to go to workshops or farmhouses to find one, but even there are plenty of 16A 3-ph only a few 32A.
    �
  • Oct 13, 2011
    Norbert
    This (+1) and that it comes across as a "we'll walk over dead bodies for this" approach, while the european situation on the road doesn't seem any worse than the one here in the US, where we have to be happy if they install 7 kW chargers on the road. Even the US EV advocates have until recently often tooted the horn for 110V charging (somewhere around 1 kW). For on the road. If you know what I mean.
    �
  • Oct 13, 2011
    Doug_G
    FWIW I think Tesla is half-right about fast DC charging. If it's available I absolutely want to use it. BUT at best they will get deployed only along major highways. There will be some need for low-cost but high-ish power charging along lesser highways.
    �
  • Oct 13, 2011
    Norbert
    Yes, and once the value and feasibility of DC fast charging is established, and that it works, then the rest follows easily. The other way around, things gravitate towards what is easiest for the utilities and the electrician, which is 7 kW and less.
    �
  • Oct 13, 2011
    William13
    I hope that Tesla engineers a solution for the Europeans. They have 6-12 extra months to do so. It makes sense that they need to satisfy European needs. Trying to push the Tesla agenda too hard they may truly resemble The old Apple Computers and fall behind the open source IBM PC computers.
    �
  • Oct 13, 2011
    Norbert
    I find it very difficult to follow posts like this. TEG was talking about 10 kW charging at home, but it seems now you are talking about charging stations on the road?

    Most of the time these posts refer to charging on the road, but then once in a while a post says the real problem is charging at home.
    �
  • Oct 13, 2011
    TEG
    Basically I think he is saying there are two main types of power available around where he lives:

    3x16A <== Common, easy to find
    and
    3x32A <== Semi commercial locations only

    With a one-phase charger you could then do:
    3.6kW (common)
    7kW (more unusual)

    But if you had a 3-phase charger you could do:
    ~10kW (common)
    ~20kW (less common)

    The latter two match the power specs of a Model S with one or two 10kW chargers on-board and would provide a meaningful overnight charge on either kind of socket.

    But the current (one-phase) solution would leave many people stuck at the 3.6kW rate which would take about a full 24 hours to recharge a completely empty 300 mile model S.

    A good rule of thumb may be to say that any good home charging should be able to completely recharge your vehicle in under 12 hours, so no matter how much you drove in the day you could go out again the next day fully charged again. If you managed to get the 32A installed to your house you would be barely OK. If you were stuck with the more typical 16A then you would likely run into situations where the vehicle wasn't ready (not fully charged yet) on some occasions.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    Norbert
    Hmm, I was kind of hearing so far that 3-phase would be so great because you could make 22 kW (3x32A) possible almost everywhere.

    But this would mean that Tesla should know from their european Roadster customers that they are commonly limited to 3.6 kW home-charging... are they saying that should be enough for the Model S? I'm wondering. I'd think there would be more to it, whether announced or not.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    mnx
    How much would it cost to build a small DC charger that took in 3 phase? Something in the 8-15kW range (comparable to the output of the UMC/HPC2) for home charging in Europe?
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    widodh
    3-phase 22kW is not that hard to make.

    I'm getting my new house in a few weeks with 3x40A. I'm laying out the cables for 3x32A at my charging station, but during the day I'll probably charge at 3x24A, which is still nearly 17kW. At night I can go to 3x32A.

    Almost every house gets 3-phases, but most of them are just connected to one. It's just a matter of a phonecall to your energy supplier and they'll upgrade you to 3x25A, 3x35A or 3x40A.

    3x16A won't be a issue at all. 10kW is enough for a overnight charge, but 1x16A is not. We need 3-phase just to get the overnight charge done, not even talking about charging with Level 2 20kW.

    BRUSA's NLG6 charger would be about 22kg and does 3x32A. Nothing official yet, but as you can see it's to heavy to be really portable.

    Something portable is what you want, since all public Level 2 charging stations are 3-phase.

    Check out my letter to Tesla: Endorse my letter to Tesla for supporting 3-phase charging for the Model S

    I've explained everything in there why we want 3-phase.

    But we can stop the three-phase discussion I guess, we'll just have to see how Tesla will respond to my letter.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    TEG
    I think that concept has been more or less discussed, requested, or assumed to be one possible option.
    The concern would be over size/weight/cost. If they could make it small, light, and cost effective enough then it might be a viable solution.
    Model S has so much more storage room than Roadster that size might not be such a huge issue.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    Norbert
    Then it is more difficult to see how that is different to the US where 110V plugs are very common. On the Roadster, 110V allows 1.8 kW charging only. That's even half of what you apparently get by using one phase of 3*16A.

    Those who live in apartments often cannot get 240V, and so some Leaf owners can charge only at 110V (and the Leaf allows only 3.3 kW charging in any case). The US has many who park on the street, overnight, as well, and they would have no access to 240V either. Their only possibility would be public access to DC fast charging on a daily basis.

    And even those who can get 240V, often have it difficult to get it into the garage, and are often told that 240V 30A (meaning 7kW) is the practical limit without lots of extra cost. And 7 kW is apparently what you can get by using one phase from 3*32A, and 30A is also the usual maximum for public Level 2 chargers here (and there are only very few so far).

    So in summary, it's not easy to see if your situation is any worse than the typical situation here in the US, except one can see that you have those other 2 phases dangling in front of you. But it doesn't seem obvious (at least not yet ) why you are in a position to demand "extra treatment" as if you are in some kind of emergency.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    TEG
    The 120V situation for US apartment dwellers is less than adequate for many as well. I wouldn't use it as an example of what works.
    I think the expectation is that Model S should be a practical, versatile, uncompromising vehicle.
    You wouldn't want to spend that kind of money, get a 300 mile range pack, then find you can only really drive ~120 miles a day because you can't recharge fast enough.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    Kevin Sharpe
    Why do you not understand that the lack of 3-Phase charging prevents many of us from buying the Model S for use in mainland Europe? Maybe Europe is not an important market for Tesla... if that's the case then they can happily ignore our requests for 3-Phase and CHAdeMO.

    Maybe it's a question for the stock holders.... does Tesla need to sell cars in Europe to be successful?
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    dpeilow
    It's like this:

    16A 3P can be found across the continent in all sorts of premises.
    32A 3P can be found in many commercial locations and is the typical maximum curent level mandated by the new common EU standard (63A is an extension to it). It is right now being installed in service stations the length and breadth of the UK and I expect across Europe.

    If you have three phase supply then making it available to EVs is as easy as installing this 380-415V MK Commando Interlocked Angled Socket 3P+E+N (IP44) Screwfix.com

    This really is our equivalent of NEMA 14-50. Shall we not support that? Do you think that because 90kW charging is promised to be rolled out by Tesla, having the option for 14-50 charging when away from that has no use?


    This whole discussion has got faintly ridiculous. It has no affect at all on Norbert what Tesla does in Europe and there is time for Tesla to provide a solution before the European version launches. In the meantime a thread tidy up is long overdue and we will have to start locking those which get dragged back in this direction.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    Eberhard
    i was just flying over to get the confirmation from JB Straubel for his promise given my at the Milan store opening. The DC fast charging is no real alternative because those station will be rare in Europe. The Tesla comes with one or two onboard charger 16A 3-ph (10kW) or 32A 3-ph (20kW) would be the perfect fit for those. But the powertrain architect told me, that the cannot be used on different phases. This would leave most Model-S with 16A = 3,6kW 24h charging to way.
    I think the only reason is, that Tesla is very proud on their new sleek plug and don't want to change anything.
    The only thing we can do, replace the onboard charger by our own. I found a producer of a 10kW charger at 600$

    i got this informations

    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    TEG
    I think using an 'aftermarket' charger would fall into the 'could void the warranty' category.
    Tesla probably does some proprietary things with the way they charge their packs.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    Norbert
    I'm not saying that 110V works at all. I'm saying it seems we have the same problem here, in terms of how I understand the situation with the information given here.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    TEG
    But being stuck with 120V in the USA in some situations is not the fault of the car... You just can't get 240V everywhere and no real alternative.
    The 3-phase case in Europe is different in that would be that you have a potentially adequate socket, but the car doesn't let you fully utilize it.

    Talk to US condo / apartment ( & house ) builders and tell them you think they should make all garages with 240V 40A outlets standard...
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    dpeilow
    TEG hits the nail on the head.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    Norbert
    One of the reasons is that we don't have 3-phase charging either. But more meaningfully:

    a) 3-phase: I'm not even assuming that Tesla is not working on a 3-phase solution. Eberhard has once said they do, and now he says they don't. I don't have any other information than that. He might have misunderstood some important detail.

    b) Meanwhile we have heard that Tesla engineers *are* working in a CHAdeMO adapter, but it is not certain yet whether that will be a product (offered at introduction).

    c) There are indications Tesla is open to third-party solutions. What's the price of the Brusa charger?

    d) I do believe Tesla will be working on a DC network.

    e) European deliveries are still far away, and a lot can happen. Tesla is currently very much focussed on the US introduction, I assume.

    f) Tesla hasn't even announced many details for the US yet.

    g) Lots of european car manufacturers, along with GM and Ford, have just announced support for a common high-power DC standard. I'm sure Tesla will provide means to connect to european (Mennekes) DC fast chargers even in case it won't support 3-phase except through third party suppliers.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    Norbert
    Good point, I haven't said anything else than that. In fact that is the reason why I've been opposing some of the EV advocates here in the US who try to tell us 110V charging is great [EDIT: to some extent].
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    Norbert
    Stop building up a strawman. I'm not saying what you think i"m saying. Doug has now indicated this thread is fine for discussing 3-phase in this context.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    dpeilow
    This is also all true.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    Kevin Sharpe
    That is exactly the point... with 3-Phase support I could and would travel anywhere in mainland Europe... with CHAdeMO support I could do that in most of Europe in a similar time to an ICE.

    Without these I cannot use the Model S for 200+ mile road trips with the family which is the only reason I would buy the car. I am not alone with these requirements and several people on this forum have expressed similar views.... bottom line, IF Tesla need to sell in Europe to become a successful and profitable company then the stock owners on this forum might want to think about the ramifications of Tesla's lack of knowledge about non-US markets.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    Norbert
    That doesn't make any sense. I'd like to make my position clear for you: I'm not opposing 3-phase support. That would be nonsensical, as would be opposing NEMA 14-50 support.

    What I am opposing is the assumption that 3-phase support would replace, obsolete, or otherwise diminish 90 kW DC fast-charging support.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    doug
    In so far as it relates to the Model S connector. This can include "will Tesla provide a 3 phase connector, or some kind of workaround, etc."

    This is not the "Norbert has to be convinced of the need for 3 phase charging in Europe because he says it's not yet obvious to him" thread.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    dpeilow
    I don't think anyone is saying that.

    Tesla is all about no compromise. People are asking for the ability to hook up to the highest power they can find, which may come in the form of three phase, CHAdeMO or Tesla's 90kW system. All these are not mutually exclusive and should at least be on the options list.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    TEG
    I don't think we have the full answer from Tesla with regards to what exactly has been happening with the charging R&D for Model S over the past couple of years.
    My guess is that some time was 'wasted' trying to coordinate with SAE, IEC and such until they finally decided they had to go their own way.
    I also guess that they might be a little behind on having a 'global solution' ready. Since they may not have a coordinated, finalized strategy ready we may be getting different information from different people about the current state of affairs and future plans.

    Just as a data point - they showed off the new UMC2, but not HPC2, and the UMC2 had prototype plug ends on them, not the universal plug adapters that they say will be on the production versions. So I gather they rushed together some prototypes to show off even though they aren't totally done yet. Also, with all the parts scattered around the factory demo, I didn't personally see any chargers so it seems like they are either too new, or in some state of flux as well.

    My guess is that Tesla is all too aware of these mainland Europe charging concerns, they value that market, but they just don't have their final answer ready yet.
    I see a few possible ways out of this:
    #1: A small / cheap portable 3 phase to DC adapter that you can take with you on road trips.
    or
    #2: An alternative charger option so that you can order the car with a 3-phase capable charger option for European customers only. It would likely need to come with a different socket on the car that supports 3-phase, which could mean adapters to UMC2 / HPC2, or alternate versions of those that have the 3-phase type plug end even though you might only use it for 1 phase sometimes.
    or
    #3: They really do manage to install 90kW Tesla style DC fast chargers in enough global public locations to satisfy their customers.
    & They also provide a home 3phase to DC charger that can do 10kW through the DC socket.
    (I think this would be the preferred option, but many of us are dubious that they could pull this off.)
    [ Note, with this option you could almost get away with having no charger in the car at all !]
    or
    #4: They provide DC adapters for CHAdeMO and/or Mennekes/J1772 DC Combo plugs so that Model S can charge off of upcoming shared, public DC infrastructure instead of public 3-phase AC.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    Norbert
    From my point of view the question relevant to the Model S connector is whether (in case the connector will be the same for Europe, which I do not take for granted at all) the connector is able to give similar driving options as it does in the US. So far it seems it comes somewhat close, unless I'm missing something, although europeans expect more because there are those two other phases available in many places.

    I'm not sure whether you would see that as being a valid question on this particular thread.
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    dpeilow
  • Oct 14, 2011
    Eberhard
    Here you find a
    http://www.evtec.ch/c5website/index.php/download_file/view/49/101/
    �
  • Oct 14, 2011
    dpeilow
    Yes, a bargain at $20,697.
    �
    • Người đăng: vào lúc

    Không có nhận xét nào:

    Đăng nhận xét

    Đăng ký: Đăng Nhận xét (Atom)