Mar 28, 2013
EMDoc Hello all! I've posted this on the Tesla website forums but was recommended to try this site as well. So here is my post:
I wanted to know if anyone else is familiar with a major change that took place and went unannounced by Tesla. I took delivery of a loaded P85 3/22 and have been very happy with Tesla and the car. I want this company to succeed! I've expected a few problems here and there though I am very detail oriented and a perfectionist. I'm ok not having the spoiler, HPWC, and parcel shelf available at the time of pickup.
However, the entire headliner is fabric instead of the promised Alcantara as has been the case up until the 2nd week of March. This is unacceptable to me. It appears that recently the factory made a change and all cars come with the same fabric. Mine was one of the first to have had this. I was never informed. Cost savings? Im not happy about it at all and to me it completely changes the feel of the interior. I was promised a car as configured, and changes have been made without my knowledge or even approval. I'm working to see what Tesla can offer and will keep you updated. Anyone else in a similar boat?
Thanks
BTW, P85 cars up until the 2nd week of March all had alcantara and that is what I understood when I took the test drive. In fact, most of the cars on the lot had this so it is not something limited to the Signature edition.�
Mar 28, 2013
shokunin I hate ninja updates like this. This happened with the paint armor as well. They initially published an image of all the areas that would be covered by the paint armor. They ninja updated the paint armor and removed a huge portion of the smaller areas they were covering.�
Mar 28, 2013
qwk Yep, the tan headliner made out of cheap fabric. You order a black interior yet half of it is tan, WTF? $100k cars with kia headliners. This is about my only gripe with the car.�
Mar 28, 2013
FlasherZ Have you confirmed it was a change in specification and not just a mix-up?
The web site still says "Model S Performance features an interior replete with Alcantara and carbon fiber accents."
I can't imagine that you'd end up only with alcantara bolsters and pillar covers... that's not "replete".
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Mar 28, 2013
EMDoc Hi guys - thanks for replies. Nope, not just my car. That is what I initially thought. Apparently mine was one of the first to have it. So the alcantara is only on the seats!
And yes, it is a "ninja" update and it is just not right. The car was promised as shown during the test drive. The alcantara is much more rich appearing and I'm familiar with it on my previous cars.
Qwk - Exactly. I was ok dealing with the fact that it is tan with an all black interior, but this is completely ridiculous spending 100k+ and having the cheap fabric.
Confirmed by service advisor and delivery specialist that the received an internal memo couple weeks ago stating all cars would be fabric. Why not inform us? They informed us about the 3rd row seats which I still passed on (stating they could not be retrofitted). Not happy and I've taken this up with ownership experience. Let's hope they rectify this.
Tesla really needs to communicate better. I want them to excel. But this is one of the things that can ruin their reputation.�
Mar 28, 2013
ckessel That's definitely disturbing. I like my alcantra headliner. I think you may have a case if you wanted to push it as what you signed up and paid for isn't what you received. That alcantra throughout is one of the selling points of the perf model.�
Mar 28, 2013
Cheerose Can you post or links to pictures that show the headliner?�
Mar 28, 2013
Beavis I usually don't jump on Telsa for stuff, but I do agree with this. I really like the alcantara headliner and would be upset if my car came without it.�
Mar 28, 2013
teslasguy I agree. Making changes like this is very unprofessional and not the Tesla so many longtermers have raved about. I would push back as well.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD�
Mar 28, 2013
EMDoc Ok glad you all agree. They need to be on the same page. My buddies P85 delivered 1 week before mine has the alcantara and looks great though it is tan with black interior. The fabric version appears so cheap it changes the entire feel of the interior for me. I've contacted ownership 2 days ago and am waiting to see what they say. To me, the alcantara was a HUGE selling point for the P85.
To those expecting delivery, just be aware of it. Mine is vin 8027.
I don't jump at Tesla for all the other minor issues, but this is a big deal and was kept internal. Almost as if they didn't want us to know. These small details can make or break a company in my opinion. It's the principle of the matter whether the car is 5k or 200k.
I hope they realize this because I don't think anyone would put up with this if this were a BMW or MB (speaking in terms of their reputation).
Will keep you updated on what TM says...hopefully sooner rather than later.�
Mar 28, 2013
Panacea Oy this is disappointing. Seriously the suede headliner was one reason why I upgraded to a P85, more worthy of how expensive the car was. I feel duped, especially since I am waiting for a red car. Had I ordered a different color, maybe I would have made it before the cutoff. Bait and switch.�
Mar 28, 2013
carrerascott Just checked my car, P85 VIN 6040, basically everything in mine above eye level is alcantara -- roof, sun visors, all pillars, side pillars, rear pillars, etc. Anything that isnt black, is alcantara. Maybe Tesla pushed these out with the cloth to get them delivered and the switch to Alcantara is on your punch list? Or should be...!�
Mar 28, 2013
vcor I guess all those "high-end" Lexuses and Mercedes that come with fabric headliners are now cheap cars too. Acutally, does anyone know of any cars that do include Alcantara headliners as standard equipment, or if an option, how much is the option?�
Mar 28, 2013
EMDoc Oh i'm at work at the moment and can't post pics from here. However, the fabric is the same as the 60kw and non performance cars.
And yes, bait and switch is how I feel. And no, at this point service advisor can't do anything and I've got an exchange going with TM ownership experience though they didn't give me a timeline. I'm sure they will be hearing from many many P85 owners and I don't know what they will end up doing about it. My service center in san diego told me they dont have the ability to change it. So, I'm waiting to see what happens. Not happy at all...and yes it feels "sneaky" though I don't think Tesla is about that...�
Mar 28, 2013
neroden Guh. Not good customer service. Tesla does warn that specifications may change between reservation and delivery, but it's really rather unprofessional to change specifications between *finalization* and delivery. And they didn't even update their website!
Now, I can guess why Tesla made this change. Attaching the headliner is a labor-intensive operation which is done on the assembled body, and having two different headliners means the people on the assembly line have to keep track of which sort of headliner goes with which car *while* doing a complicated gluing operation. (The seats are prepared in advance and basically inserted as a block, creating much less of an assembly line process issue, since the people inserting them aren't doing anything complicated and can devote their entire brains to checking that they've got the right seats.)
But it's unprofessional to do the change without warning. First they should have changed the website, then they should have emailed everyone with reservations who hadn't finalized, then they should have waited to make the change until the finalized reservations had been manufactured.�
Mar 28, 2013
carrerascott Here's pics of mine with alcantara. Of course with the sunroof I don't have as much Alcantara as some of you. But this is certainly how all P85's *should* look...
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Mar 28, 2013
EMDoc Also, sorry to be the bearer of bad news. But at least you guys won't have to go through the initial shock of realizing that you don't have the alcantara when you pick up the car.�
Mar 28, 2013
andrewket I have a P85 on order and one of the reasons I ordered a perf was for the Alcantara interior. I will be very disappointed if Tesla doesn't switch back and offer compensation or a fix to those impacted.They can't change options for the worse after a customer has put down a deposit and finalized. It's bad business and it will come back to bite them.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD�
Mar 28, 2013
gobagheera I have the same issue. Took delivery this Tuesday, vin 8057. I have cloth. I didn't even realize. I probably would have been okay if they were upfront and maybe offered some discount or something, but this is borderline scam.�
Mar 28, 2013
v12 to 12v Yours is a Performance model too?�
Mar 28, 2013
gobagheera Yes, performance.�
Mar 28, 2013
AnOutsider While I wholeheartedly agree, one thing of the MVPA we signed does state (and I didn't like this either) that the car can change without warning. It would be the wrong thing for Tesla to do (from a PR perspective), but I bet they could fall back on that in court. Though since it seems their legal team is actually a pod of failwhales, perhaps they'd still lose.�
Mar 28, 2013
artsci I'm not at all happy about this. What does it save Tesla? $20-$30 if that much. But it costs a lot more in customer satisfaction. This is penny wise and pound foolish. George B are you listening?�
Mar 28, 2013
EMDoc Yes, I agree they may find a way in the MVPA to get themselves out of this...however based on principle alone I don't think I would be a repeat customer no matter what they came out with. It is bad practice. I'm hoping that they realize how big of a deal this actually is (and I agree maybe the headliner is not an issue to most of the population) and fix it. Keep me updated if you guys hear anything and I will do the same. Still waiting for word from Ownership experience. 2 days and going?�
Mar 28, 2013
EarlyAdopter Has anyone confirmed with Ownership that this was intentional? It could be a temporary supplier shortage or a screw up on the line.�
Mar 28, 2013
neroden The change in headliner material actually may save them a *lot* more than that if, as I hypothesize, it is a factory efficiency issue.
But it's the way they went about it which is the real issue. If they'd announced the change in advance and it had been for people who had not finalized yet, people would probably shrug their shoulders and deal with it. What did it save them to shove the change out so quickly with no prior notice? Given the current (quite short) times from ordering to delivery, maybe two weeks of slowed production; they could have put all the remaining "finalized with Alcantara headliner" orders in a single queue, done them all at once, and then made the change. Why make a "stealth change"?
Yeah. This is another piece of utter carelessness when it comes to customer relations. And Tesla's developing a reputation for failing to communicate with customers appropriately.�
Mar 28, 2013
yobigd20 I would be very pissed. They can't just start stripping features out like this. The *is* one of the selling point features of the P85. If this is a permanent change, they should *AT A MINIMUM* reduce the price of the P85.
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Can someone post photos of the cloth interior so we can compare with the above Alcantara photos?�
Mar 28, 2013
gobagheera Tried on my iPhone but couldn't. I'll upload tomorrow. I have p85 with all options except parcel shelf.�
Mar 28, 2013
AnOutsider I went weeks without hearing anything on my HPWC. My local service rep finally got on them and then it showed up. So perhaps try that route?�
Mar 28, 2013
carrerascott I got a call from Customer Care about a week ago saying "by late April." My local service rep has no idea when it will show up. I'll just wait, as my 14-50 is fine, and the HWPC is going in in addition to the 14-50, so not a huge deal. Of course if it's May and I still don't have it, then I'll start being the squeaky wheel...
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Mar 28, 2013
EMDoc
I am very pissed but what can you do. I'm trying to be patient. It's bad enough thinking about how the interior will have to be torn apart if I want it fixed.
At work right now so I can't get to it right away...
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How do I find out about the local service rep? Not my service advisor at the service center? Thanks.�
Mar 28, 2013
AnOutsider Yes, sorry I meant the service advisor. I just asked them for help nudging Tesla�
Mar 28, 2013
EMDoc Thanks..yeah that is what I thought. He straight up told me this couldn't be handled in their service center. I drove straight to the service center (where I picked up the car) as soon as I realized the switch in headliner and couldn't believe my eyes. He didn't know what to say other than contact ownership experience.
I just got an email from Tesla ownership...they state the issue has been escalated to a "top level."�
Mar 28, 2013
AnOutsider Good to hear. Hopefully at the very least there will be clear communication on the matter�
Mar 28, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla This is very poor form on Tesla's part. Much much worse than carrerascott getting plastic inserts instead of chrome ones in the rear hatch area (did that ever get resolved, Scott?!)
Wonder if some maverick at the factory made this call coz' I can't imagine GeorgeB and the like ever approving something like this. Hope this gets addressed soon; it'll be messy and painful to have to replace it outside the factory.
Here's how my cloth headliner looks (I have a lot of it given no pano roof); I'm happy with it but, there's no reason for someone who paid a pretty penny for the Perf to 'live with it':
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Mar 28, 2013
scriptacus Not that this is an excuse, but is it possible they are done with alcantara headliners altogether? Did I read correctly that it was only officially for Signatures? If so, it seems possible that they had excess from bulk orders and ended up using it for production P85s until it ran out.�
Mar 28, 2013
carrerascott According to my DS, the chrome rear hatch inserts were for Signature cars, and they used up the leftovers in some non-Sigs, and black plastic is what is the "norm." Whether that's true or not, I don't know. I do have chrome in the same place in the Frunk that i have black plastic in the trunk. I can only take their word on that since it's not an item mentioned in the car's description. As for the alcantara, that's obviously mentioned in the description of the car, even right now if you go to order online it says "Model S Performance features an interior replete with Alcantara and carbon fiber accents." (ps I didn't order the Carbon Fiber interior, so I have no carbon fiber accents anywhere -- I thought there were supposed to be some exterior carbon fiber, but I guess not.
It does have this disclaimer on the order page:
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Mar 28, 2013
jimbakker666 As you said, it's the principle of the issue. Nobody likes a switch-a-roo.�
Mar 28, 2013
pete8314 TM also posted (on their blog I think) a justification of why the Performance was such good value for money, noting that the Alcantara headliner was a $$$ option on the Porsche Panamera. I'm on my iPad at the mo and can't find it, but I clearly recall it, and if this isn't a production line screw up, it's exceptionally cheap of Tesla.�
Mar 28, 2013
UMD86 >>To me, the alcantara was a HUGE selling point for the P85.<< I AGREE - that's the ONLY reason why I spent the extra money. The fabric headliner seemd VERY CHEAP LOOKING and when you spend over $100K you don't want CHEAP. I didn't really care about the stronger motor......1 Second is not a big deal for me. The interior was my main focus.
It seems like Tesla is feeling the pressure of GROSS MARGINS. It makes no sense for them to change the interior unless they are having supplier issues and if that's the case they should have informed reservation holders. My arrived at the end of Feb. and it has the Alcantara.�
Mar 28, 2013
shokunin Alcantara is definitely not cheap, $100+ per yard. However, I'm quite sure Tesla could get a much better deal than that. I don't have the pano roof, so my P85 has a huge alcantara headliner. Seems like a cheap way to be penny pinching.
Most P85's I've seen on the road have the pano roof, so it's not like they are using a huge amount of fabric. If anything, they should have just added this as another option and have people who order after the switch-a-roo date to opt for it or not on the Performance version.
While the Alcantara is nice, I don't think the cloth version is all that cheap. Heck, I had sit in my other cars and look up at the roof to see what kind of fabric they had. I've been driving the other cars for years and had no clue what the headliner was made of. :redface:�
Mar 29, 2013
yobigd20 Just as a point of reference, I picked my car up March 6th and I have the alcantara headliner. Though I'm out on the east cost, so technically my car was done building a week prior to that. This change must have happening sometime during the first week or two of March.
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WOW...I had no idea that's what the 'cloth' interior looked like. This is shocking!! I agree, the cloth looks VERY cheap and should *not* be on the P85 (or any other Model S IMO honestly). I would not let up on this issue if I were you.
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You paid for it. You should get it:
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hmmm...I see it says 'Alcantara accents', but that could just be for the seats. Does it actually say 'Alcantara headliner' anywhere on their website or official documentation? I can't seem to find any.�
Mar 29, 2013
Panacea +1
That is exactly what motivated me to get the P85. I am very disappointed. I hope TM remedies the situation immediately. This is not the buying experience I imagined when I finalized my order in Feb.�
Mar 29, 2013
jkirkebo Same here, the interior upgrade is what's pushing me towards the P85. If the headliner must be an separate upgrade, so be it. I'll pay up to $1000 extra for it if I have to. Please make that available for the EU cars...
I'm getting a "short end of the stick" vibe for us who have reserved an european P85. No grey 21" wheels included and now we don't get an alcantara headliner either?
Getting on the sig waiting list is not an option for me since I want blue/grey.�
Mar 29, 2013
Al Sherman Not to rub salt in the wound. Just as a point of reference. I took delivery on March 12th and DO have the full Alcantara. As another point of reference FWIW, I'm usually extremely accepting, and calm. I can see how I would be VERY annoyed if my car just showed up with the cloth headliner. If it's not a mistake, it's just not OK.�
Mar 29, 2013
ElSupreme I can see why you are upset about getting a headliner different than what you expected. And yes I think it was somewhat crappy of Tesla to change something so visible without giving people a heads up. But think about these questions before you get all judgmental.
Should Tesla contact all their reservation holders every time they make a change to how the car is made? Every time a part is changed? What if they start using a different LED bulb in the overhead lighting? What if they start using a different Velcro to hold down the mats. What if they change the thread in the seats that they are sewing? What about if they change the color of the foam in their seats? How about change the molding of a plastic part, such that it comes out of the mold easier?
Tesla can't tell you about all the changes they make. Sure something as visible as a headliner will be noticed. And perhaps should have been communicated.
But what if they stopped using the Alcantara headliner for another reason. Perhaps their supplier told them the price was going up, and their commitment was over with. Perhaps the supplier was having problems making the headliners and told Tesla they wouldn't make them any more. Maybe there were quality issues with the headliners and Tesla decided they didn't meet a quality requirement. Perhaps they saw some issues with premature wear of the headliners, and they started to sag. And Tesla decided having a 'cheap' headliner would be better than having a droopy headliner. Maybe the Alcantara was shedding and getting small microfibers all over the dash and screens, and Tesla decided it wasn't acceptable.
Maybe Tesla made the car HIGHER (by some other non-aesthetic measure) quality by removing the headliner?
Also I have never seen any writing that says that you will get an Alcantara headliner. And I don't think anyone else on the forum is claiming to see such language. I would hardly call a headliner an 'accent' piece.
A lot of this problem is coming from Tesla's sales model. You order, and get what you get. Versus you looking on a lot, and getting what you touched. I know that buying something online is different than buying something at the store. I accept some of the risks. I will NEVER buy shoes online for this reason. I have bought one pair of shoes online in the past decade, because I couldn't find a store in Atlanta that sold the boots I was looking for. They were exactly the same as my previous work steel toe boots. But they weren't. The laces were different, and much crappier. The eyelets were different, can't really tell if they were better/worse but they were different. And well the tongue was sewn all messed up in my left boot. It still won't stay behind the laces after over 1 year of wear. Part of the deal with buying online. I won't do it again, because I am VERY particular about my shoes. I am not so much with my car.�
Mar 29, 2013
montgom626 Breach of contract, get an attorney.�
Mar 29, 2013
joer00 Sorry, your arguments do not count ! You cannot advertise one thing and than sell another, I agree to the breach of contract ! What would you say if your leather seats now come with leather immitation ? It's the same thing !
I think I am lucky that I got one of the last cars with Alcantra on March 18th. If I would have gotton the cheap stuff, I would not have accepted this. I am not a lawyer, but common sense tells me that Tesla can change anything if it is SIMILAR or equal quality, not just cheaper stuff.
Joe
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Mar 29, 2013
Kaivball I call this "in writing"
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Mar 29, 2013
ckessel If affects something visual or performance, then yes.
People don't get to buy the car they look at with Tesla, unlike a traditional dealership. If the car they look at (or pictures of it online) does not match what they receive, they'll feel justifiably a victim of some level of bait and switch. Tesla's disclaimer about changes may occur only goes so far. If I were on the parking lot and said, "yea, I want this car!", then the dealer pulled out another to give me that didn't have the same leather interior I'd refuse it on the spot.
If Tesla isn't going to go the dealer route and sell the car on the lot, then they need to be extra attentive in delivering what the customer does get to see. If Tesla has a change to make, such as the alcantra, they should deliver as it was for everyone locked in, then notify anyone of the change with a non-locked reservation.
They should also include a list of visible changes attached to showroom cars with a generic statement like "We are constantly updating our car and you should be aware that this showroom car differs from the production car in the following ways."
Other choices by Tesla I may not have agreed with, but they were published and things hashed out before cars were shipped (e.g. supercharger costs, etc). And in those cases, some folks got grandfathered in. In this case, Tesla did not deliver the car that was reasonably expected, a change that may very well have impacted someone's choice when they locked in. I know I was really on the perf bubble and the interior was part of the appeal.�
Mar 29, 2013
pete8314 OK, so I had a proper hunt. Tesla had posted on their 'Bulletin Board' here, but the link no longer exists. This was at the time where they were explaining the reason for the price hike for the 2013 models.
The wording was:
WHY ISN'T THERE A CREDIT FOR 19" WHEELS IN THE PERFORMANCE PACKAGE?
[email�protected].. | NOVEMBER 24, 2012
The Performance Package was priced assuming a 19" wheel. Here is how we arrived at Performance pricing:
Base 85 kWh Model S $77,400
Performance Drive Unit $10,000
Upgraded Interior and Treatments $3,500
Active Air Suspension $1,500
Total $92,400
The $10,000 Performance Drive unit includes upgraded drive components, hardware and software.
The $3,500 Upgraded Interior includes all items in the $1,500 Nappa Leather Interior package, plus an Alcantara headliner ($1,900 on a Porsche Panamera), additional leather treatments and Alcantara seat bolsters ($600), Carbon Fiber d�cor option ($500 on Audi S7), and contrast color piping on seats ($200). This package rolls up to between $4,200 and $4,700 (depending upon if you choose the Carbon Fiber D�cor on not), but was included in the Performance Package at $3,500.
The $92,400 price assumed a 19" wheel. However, we wanted our very early reservation holders to have the option to choose their favorite wheel as part of the Performance Package at no additional cost.
I've highlighted the relevant section - these are Tesla Motors' words, looks black and white to me. Shame they took the link down, but I'm sure there's a cached version out there somewhere. Either way, there it is, in writing.�
Mar 29, 2013
Stoneymonster Kaivball,
Where does that say headliner?
Edit: Nice find Pete!�
Mar 29, 2013
jerry33 It would be in writing if they said "Nappa leather and Alcantara interior" or "Nappa leather interior with all Alcantara accents". I agree that this was a change (from the beta models) that they should have communicated about. (I have an S85, so no dogs in this fight.)�
Mar 29, 2013
rlpm To me, "accents" doesn't necessarily include headliner. Is there anywhere on their website that explicitly states that the Alcantara headliner is included for non-sig P85s?
Don't get me wrong. I am irked by this change, as my P85 will very likely be affected (but I won't know for sure until it gets here next week). Would Alcantara be nicer than cloth? Sure. Are there plenty of non-sig P85 owners that have Alcantara? Yes. Was it a bit disingenuous that they changed it without informing locked-in customers? Yes. Will the car be any less usable without it? No. Will the car be better without it? Possibly, depending on why they made the change.
So I guess the only thing that irks me is that they didn't tell locked-in customers about it. Sigh.
Edit Good find, Pete. I do remember reading that page. I certainly hope removing it wasn't CYA due to this thread. That would increase my opinion to them being more than "a bit" disingenuous. Double sigh.�
Mar 29, 2013
Zextraterrestrial Dark dog hair sticks to the Alcantara headliner if that makes any difference to anyone. not sure about the 'standard' headliner though
woof.�
Mar 29, 2013
markb1 I presume they removed it because the question at the top of the bulletin board post is no longer relevant. 21" wheels now cost extra for the P85 under the 2013 pricing.
Anyway, has anyone sent an email to GeorgeB to see if there's an official response?�
Mar 29, 2013
wstuff I understand your concern if the headliner is one of the reasons you bought the car. I just took some pictures of my ORDINARY headliner and I have to say ( personal preference only) I like the look of the regular cloth liner, the Alacantara looks like a material you would put in a cheaper car to try and richen it up but fails miserably because it doesn't flow with anything else in the car. I am going to an event the end of April where I will have the opportunity to see several performance models and I will pay attention to the headliner. This is only my personal preference but I love the interior of the S, simple and minimalist that goes with the lack of switches and buttons. To the person who said they want a button for the pano roof , it is on the steering wheel. I never liked the two tone effect of a dark interior with a very light headliner. I'm not saying you should not try to resolve this, it was listed as one of the benefits of the performance edition and you should get what you pay for, as Tesla made the decision to delete that prepaid option I think they should allow a reasonable discount for the lack of the feature. I love the slight texture of the cloth headliner , the Alacantara looks like a Velour coverup, hope I don't ruffle too many feathers, just an honest personal opinion from pictures posted.
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Mar 29, 2013
gobagheera Here is my P85 delivered 3/26 with the cloth headliner. It might be personal preference for some people, but I personally wanted and expected the alcantara headliner in the performance.
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Mar 29, 2013
Kaivball That's the issue.
This is a very visible item.
Alcantara is always treated as an upgrade over cloth. Always.
Look at the Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, etc spec sheet.
Alcantara is an upgrade.
If you test drive a car with Alcantara, then you have a built in expectation that you get this.
I would certainly disappointed if that had happened to me. VIN 6662 still has Alcantara.�
Mar 29, 2013
ElSupreme How do my arguments not count. Besides I don't know anywhere they are advertising and Alcantara headliner. Pete's finding is based on the increased cost reserevd in 2013 Model S. So if you reserved in 2013 and paid a higher price you might have a legitimate legal gripe. If he has a contract stating an Alcantara headliner then you would be correct.
How is the largest single piece of fabric in the car an 'accent' piece. I would say it is a main piece.�
Mar 29, 2013
wstuff Gobagheera, I am a FANBOY, but if your disappointed and expected the Alacantara, you should call ownership and complain, I know I would feel slighted if my car was not delivered the way I expected it. Let us know what kind of an answer you get if you decide to complain, Robert�
Mar 29, 2013
ckessel I suppose to clarify my earlier post since it could be interpreted as strident, I can certainly understand if Tesla decided the alcantra is hurting the budget and removing it. I just think they should have grandfathered in any existing orders. Perhaps make it an add on cost option in the future. Due to this thread, I went and sat in my car and looked at the alcantra pillars and headliner and thought that I would indeed have been very upset if I hadn't gotten it. That level of luxuriousness is an important factor for me personally, especially in a car with an intentionally spartan interior design. That and the CF interior were why I got the perf, or I should more appropriately say that pure performance alone wasn't enough and those things tipped the decision.
I'd like to see Tesla do right by those that want the alcantra interior, either with a retrofit or some sort of partial reimbursement if a retrofit isn't an option. It's simply not right that folks like me got it and other folks won't when we all saw the same demo cars, pictures and all paid the same price.
Edit: I have had a couple people specifically take note of the nice all around "leather" interior as they admired the dash, ceiling, etc, and ask me in test drives if this is the standard interior. I said it was part of the Perf package, though now that's not fully true anymore as they can't get the interior I have.�
Mar 29, 2013
ElSupreme I pointed out that Tesla probably should have done some notification on something so visible. But technically EVERY change affects something visual or performance. It is just a matter of how much.
I had a Dodge Neon in high school. It was made in Ohio and had a manual transmission. When it burned out I got new clutch plates put into the clutch. I had a friend with a Dodge Neon (same year but better options). It was made in Mexico and had a manual transmission. When his burned out he had to replace his whole modular clutch unit. That is because Mexican built Neons (1996) had modular, non-serviceable clutch units. Ohio built Neons had fully serviceable part built clutches. Should Dodge have had a disclaimer on all those cars? And in general the modular non-serviceable clutches were better than the Ohio built clutch assemblies.
That is basically what I said in my post. I just said that I would not be exceedingly upset about a change from what I saw in real life, versus what I got in the mail. Should I be upset about my cloth headliner, since I only saw cars with Alcantara headliners before I bought my car? Should I be upset about my synthetic-leather lined cloth seats because they have more/less cloth than I want? Should I be this upset about the fact that I don't have driver profiles?
No. Because I ordered something online, got it in the mail, and none of those things were expressed in what I ordered. Can I be annoyed yes. But threatening legal action over something you assumed is absurd.�
Mar 29, 2013
ckessel Well, this is being pedantic on my part, but something like changing suppliers for 1/4" bolts wouldn't have any visual or performance impact. However, point taken that the line is obviously blurry in many areas.�
Mar 29, 2013
Kaivball This is not what you expect from a luxury performance vehicle maker.
If this was KIA all the apologies might make sense.
But it seems that everyone has a different tolerance level.
When you are trying to brake the mold, you shouldn't create unhappy customers.
Replacing Alcantara with cheap cloth is demeaning for those that expected to get Alcantara.
To get cloth without explanation or heads up is insulting.
Very disappointing.�
Mar 29, 2013
Krugerrand That's not possible because...
:wink:�
Mar 29, 2013
mknox I actually prefer the cloth, but that is not really the point. Before my car was delivered, they dropped reference to Fog Lights in the Tech Package and I was worried I wouldn't get them (I did). It'll be interesting to see if Fog Lights eventually stop showing up on cars when they run out of the current part.�
Mar 29, 2013
gregincal This is the key mention to me. They still say this on the website under options and pricing:
They specifically mention "extensive leather throughout" for the Performance model. With this change, is there any more leather in the car than in the standard model?
(although I suppose since Alcantara isn't really leather it shouldn't be referring to this anyway, but that's what I always assumed it referred to).�
Mar 29, 2013
Oyvind.H Tesla should not switch from alcantata to cloth headliner without informing. No discussion. I would be furious if I expected alcantara and got cloth!�
Mar 29, 2013
SCW-Greg It's about managing expectations. At $100k, unannounced (perceived or real) downgrades are not taken lightly... No matter how you explain it away.�
Mar 29, 2013
qwk This is something not comparable at all unless Chrysler advertised the Neon including a serviceable clutch, and charged extra for it.�
Mar 29, 2013
ElSupreme But Tesla never advertised an Alcantara headliner. And never charged extra for it either.�
Mar 29, 2013
qwk They sure did. Read the advertisement posted a few pages ago..�
Mar 29, 2013
ElSupreme Well if you paid extra and reserved a car after 2013 hit then they certainly did advertise it. That was why there is a price increase for 2013. Says nothing about cars reserved before then.�
Mar 29, 2013
qwk You are trying to defend the indefensible here. Most of the early cars got it, now it's disappeared.�
Mar 29, 2013
ElSupreme Well I misread that. But a post stating that you get a 'free' Alcantara headliner as part of a price justification of why there is no wheel upgrade deduct in a package is pretty weak standing. Granted it is some standing, but pretty weak.
I wouldn't call that advertising.�
Mar 29, 2013
AnOutsider I think, with the battery pack costing so much, Tesla is hitting that ceiling where folks who are expecting true luxury at this price range aren't really seeing luxury all the way throughout. The interior takes a hit to absorb some of the battery cost.
On the other hand, those who may be upgrading and perhaps not used to what is to be expected in a high end luxury car may be more tolerant since it's all pretty luxurious in comparison.
Perhaps Tesla thought there would be more of the latter type of customer than the former and the cost-cutting would go largely unnoticed.�
Mar 29, 2013
Doogue +1 on being really pissed if I got the switcheroo from Alcantara to cloth... I picked up two weeks ago, car was ready a month ago (I was travelling) and mine came with Alcantara.�
Mar 29, 2013
ElSupreme Tesla changing something they never promised, and them not telling you is crappy. But the amount of outrage here is indefensible. "I paid the $12k mostly for the headliner" is pure hyperbole. Trying to say the largest single piece of fabric/leather in the whole car is a 'accent' piece is absurd.
Should you be irritated? I think that is a fine reaction, and acceptable. Should Tesla have notified people? Probably, but they didn't have to. Did Tesla promise an Alcantara headliner? No. Was expecting an Alcantara headliner with the Performance upgrade expected? Yes. Did you sign a document saying Tesla can change things without notifying you? Yes. Did you make an internet purchase? Yes. Did you get your car mail ordered? Yes.
Did Tesla change their windshield, so that there is no longer a RF 'gap' in the coating? Yes. Are people saying they no longer want their cars because of it? No. Are people threatening lawsuits because of it? No. Will this affect more people negatively? Yes.�
Mar 29, 2013
Tommy I side with the OP's position and would use this as an analogy: Suppose Tesla removed the metal brake and throttle pedals from the Performance version and substituted with the generic rubber ones that are on regular S models without making any announcement, would any one here be happy with that and think it ok (I ask rhetorically). I think not.�
Mar 29, 2013
ElSupreme Right people would be upset. I am not saying they shouldn't be. But threatening legal action, and saying you spent $12k mostly for aluminum pedals is pure crap. Complain to Tesla. Maybe they can give you a free parcel shelf or something.
You signed an agreement that said "Tesla can change things without notice". You bought something site unseen. You got it mailed to your house. You have to accept some risk here. It sucks but deal with it. I don't have driver profiles. I am very irritated about it. I don't seem to be threatening lawsuits, claiming that I spent the $4k for the Tech package to have driver profiles, or claiming the car is somehow worthless now. I am dealing with it.�
Mar 29, 2013
AnOutsider You don't? I do. Regardless though, you HAVE to see how picking out the config you want and crossing your fingers that it arrives as advertised isn't something most people will tolerate.�
Mar 29, 2013
ElSupreme No somehow Tesla has paired Driver Profiles to Leather seats. When all the website says is seat memory. I am in EXACTLY the same boat with driver profiles as the Alcantara headliner people are.
Except Tesla does have specific references to driver profiles, not an Alcantara headliner. They just don't ever pair it with leather seats.�
Mar 29, 2013
qwk FYI, I didn't order the performance so this doesn't affect me. One of the main reasons was I don't like alacantera leather. The other was air suspension. Don't want it.
For the people who like alacantera and extensive leather throughout, this is clearly a bait-n-switch. No way to argue otherwise because the description in the Signature/Performance packages not only said it was included, but Tesla even broke down the cost for this feature. You are trying to argue the like of 1+1=3, cannot be done.�
Mar 29, 2013
teslasguy If you were shown a car with leather seats and told that car is the version you will be getting, and then you were delivered a car with fabric seats
it seems to me you would be fully justified in demanding a car with leather seats. I see this as no difference. However, I think we all should take a breather until we see how this is finally resolved by Tesla.
P1117 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk�
Mar 29, 2013
gobagheera Here's the issue. I love the car and hope that Tesla succeeds. But when they switch things out without notification because they have a clause in the contract, I lose faith in the product and the company.
I am a stockholder and a Model X Signature reservation holder. I've been spreading the Tesla word to everyone I know and have given numerous test rides in the Model S. I hate dealing with traditional car dealers and thought that Tesla was a breath of fresh air to buying a car. But when they do something like this, my positive perspective of the company starts fading. It also makes me question my Model X Signature reservation.
I've been trying to get a hold of my Tesla contact since last night about this issue, but have not heard back. Is it because it's Good Friday or is he avoiding me due to this issue? I wonder.�
Mar 29, 2013
gregincal Although nobody's ever responded to what "extensive leather throughout" refers to. Which they definitely do advertise.�
Mar 29, 2013
Kaivball Irritation is not what I would call this.
Cheap cloth vs. expensive Alcantara?
And we are just supposed to bend over and say thank you?
Lol. And I thought only Ferrari owners were helpless fanboys.�
Mar 29, 2013
Stoneymonster Kaivball, you can be as upset as you like, but please don't be rude because you disagree with other folks here.
You'll get more satisfaction directing your displeasure to Tesla.�
Mar 29, 2013
EngineerXLence To me, Tesla's character as a company matters tremendously....their integrity matters tremendously...it's not just about what is legally allowable or defensible in court based on disclaimers on the MPVA. Call me old-fashioned...but for me, the values of honesty and fairness are absolute conditions to earn my business.
I finalized my P85 order roughly 3 weeks ago...and couldn't be more excited. The upgraded interior (inc. Alcantara seat accents and headliner) was important during my configuration decision-making.
However, if Tesla starts to "skimp" on my ~$110K dream by changing the features from what I was shown and told would be included....I may just continue driving my BMW M3. If I need to walk away from my $5000 reservation to truly show how important honesty/integrity are...I'm willing to do so.
I've contacted Tesla ownership experience on this topic and expressed my concerns. They will be responding...and I am completely confident Tesla will somehow make this right. I believe they ARE truly different than "all the others"...they'll prove themselves again on this issue.�
Mar 29, 2013
Martini Isn't today a holiday in North America? You will probably have to wait until Tuesday at the earliest. I hope they can resolve this to your satisfaction, and for other Performance customers as well.�
Mar 29, 2013
gregincal No, we don't have a holiday either today or monday in the US. The stock market is closed today, but that's about it.�
Mar 29, 2013
Stoneymonster Just a bank holiday. Most companies are open and postal service is still delivered.�
Mar 29, 2013
Cheerose There hasn't been anything official from Tesla except that they are looking into it, right?�
Mar 29, 2013
ElSupreme And the factory I work at that typically runs 5.5-6 days a week.�
Mar 29, 2013
jomo25 Not sure what you are implying, but Tesla staff are in the office today. If they aren't responding, it's likely because of last minute Q1 activities. My IDS proposed we talk today, so I would take that as a clear sign that they are working.�
Mar 29, 2013
BlkCld If true not happy about the change on finalized orders.
Looks like someone will be making money with aftermarket custom headliners.�
Mar 29, 2013
gobagheera My Tesla delivery specialist called me late this afternoon. He told me that my issue has been reported and I should hear something soon. He told me that corporate decided to go all cloth a few weeks ago, but agreed that I really should get the alcantara. Will update as I hear back.�
Mar 29, 2013
highfalutintodd 10 whole pages of complaining about not having fake leather overhead in an all-electric, stupidly fast, multiple award-winning, super high-tech futuremobile.....
Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to officially proclaim this a "first world problem."�
Mar 29, 2013
gobagheera True. But if Tesla changed the multi coat red to plain cheap red and delivered it to you without notice, I'd assume you'd be complaining.�
Mar 29, 2013
highfalutintodd Probably, but it would sound just as whiny. :biggrin:�
Mar 29, 2013
TurboFroggy Hilarious..�
Mar 29, 2013
brianman I don't buy this. Didn't George mention playing the "how long 'til they mention it on the forums?" game from time to time?�
Mar 29, 2013
stevezzzz I'm so clueless about the headliner in my S that I had to go to the garage to see what I've got. I guess the Alacantra headliner was part of the Signature premium, because I've got it in my (non-Perf) car, S187.�
Mar 29, 2013
Kaivball Well, we clearly have two types of Model S owners.
Those that came from the Volt, Prius and Leaf world, and those that are coming from the Ferrari, Aston Martin, Lamborghini and AMG world.
One is more used to cloth, the other to Alcantara.�
Mar 29, 2013
contaygious Wow that sux they changed it. I love mine! It's very noticeable given its the entire top half of the interior. Even our 35k mini has this.�
Mar 29, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla Oh, that "fuzz" in our Minis is Alcantara?! Didn't know better
All the same, big time misfire from T.�
Mar 29, 2013
EMDoc WOW! I didn't think we would be on page 11 after a day of not logging in.
Still waiting to hear back after the email I got said it had been raised to a "top level" as of yesterday.
Pete - Thanks for the info from the bulletin
CKessel - Thanks for the support as well.
Engineer - Sent you a PM. I'm about to sell my 2011 M3 sedan tomorrow...so overall the P85 is amazing.
Gobagheera - Hang in there. I will update if I hear anything. And I agree...I fully support Tesla and want them to survive and thrive.
It does appear there are two types of buyers. Ones that see the car as a point A to B, and others that come from higher end cars who are used to ultra plush interiors. It all comes down to detail. Whatever makes you happy.
I don't care how you look at it, but whether its getting the wrong wheels, paint, steering wheel...it shouldn't be happening without informing the customer! An honest mistake is a mistake. This is different. It was a corporate decision. I first thought my car slipped through the cracks and then find out the next day there was an internal memo and email about the change! What?! How can you change such a feature for an inferior feature (to me anyway) and have the customer just accept it.
It comes down to principle. Perhaps Tesla IS able to get away legally with this, but it would reflect so poorly to me if they use this avenue that I don't think I could trust them with configuring and finalizing and delivering a car as promised in the future again. That could destroy a customer base. Someone else made this point earlier. That is the BOTTOM LINE to me.
Let's see what happens.
Thanks all.�
Mar 29, 2013
huntjo I think they'll fix it for you doc�
Mar 30, 2013
Oyvind.H And they should fix every single car they've shipped with wrong headliner! This comes from a non perf non sig reservation holder with stocks....�
Mar 30, 2013
Martini When worlds collide...on the internet.�
Mar 30, 2013
andrewket This is how I feel. My P85 has been on order for months (deposit over a year). I will be upset if I don't receive what I ordered. But the larger issue is about trust and integrity, which is very hard to earn back once it's lost. It could kill Tesla and none of us want to see that happen.�
Mar 30, 2013
bob_p As I was preparing to finalize the order of my P85 late last year, over the phone with Tesla, I went through the complete list of feature differences between the P85 and S85 - and the Tesla rep mentioned the headliner as one of the differences. Before I finalized my order, went by the local Tesla store - and looked at the P85 on display - and decided the headliner was a nice upgrade along with the upgraded seats - in addition to the higher performance. While it wasn't a huge part of my justification for going with the performance version, I would also have been disappointed if they'd made such a change in features after I finalized my order and committed to purchase the car.
With Tesla's ordering process, they really need to make this a very clear policy. Customers are not allowed to change their configurations after an order is finalized. Tesla should similarly not be allowed to make any changes. And if something does change, the customer should be notified, and be given the option to change their configuration or rescind the order (without financial penalty).�
Mar 30, 2013
BlkCld Exactly what I was thinking. Just be fair and give your customer the choice.
EMdoc, did you happen to include a link to this thread in your email to Tesla? I would hope they read it to see what the customers think and that it is not just you.�
Mar 30, 2013
yobigd20 This probably goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway - anyone taking delivery of their P85 that has the cloth headliner, you should *not* accept the car unless they put the Alcantara headliner on the due bill.�
Mar 30, 2013
contaygious Oops that was anthracite not alcantara. My bad! The latter Looks a lot better! Minis have a cashmere option too now, but I'd still prefer the alcantara..�
Mar 30, 2013
pimp-boy That really really sucks. I picked mine up on March 22nd at the 11am appt. The car was supposedly ready for pick up on the 19th, but delayed it. Mine still had the Alcantera headliner on my P85. I really hope they make it right for you. Reading through all 11 pages, replacing the headliner to cloth is a BIG change. Sure, you can say changes will be made to the materials, but if it affects value or is a major change, that is a bait and switch setup. Go ahead and change a bolt manufacturer or a trim piece (but of the same quality and style), but not a whole headliner material. It's like you order your 21" rims with that particular style that you paid for and then they replace it with some ugly or cheapo design w/o informing you and giving you an option. Your showrooms are your advertisement pieces and the P85's reflect the headliner. Sheesh!
�
Mar 30, 2013
Elshout Well TMC has your money, what do you propose? Let it sit at the factory?�
Mar 30, 2013
EMDoc That is a great idea. Thanks. Will ssee them a link. I know they are getting calls about this.
Yobigd20 - I didn't realize it when I picked it up since there was so much going on!�
Mar 30, 2013
TokyoRush Picked up my beautiful white P85 today in Boston - absolutely has the Alcantra headliner, sun visors, and seat inserts. Looks awesome. I asked and was told that it is standard for P85 's so I'd talk to Tesla about yours. Must have been a mistake.�
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