Mar 7, 2013
swegman Not sure if this is the right place to post this. Moderator, please move to the appropriate place if necessary.
Picked up my Performace S on Tuesday afternoon. Drove it home and placed it in the garage. It snowed Wednesday, so I left the car in the garage all day, especially because I have the 21 inch tires. Today (Thursday), I drove the car to Germantown, MD in the morning. No problems. In the afternoon, I drove to Leesburg, VA. No problems on the drive to VA. About an hour after arriving in Leesburg, I opened the trunk to put something in it. I closed the trunk and walked to the driver's door to open it. When I put my hand behind the handle, the handle retracted into the car and the doors locked.
The car would not extend the handles when I walked up to the car (I tried this several times), but would extend by pressing the button on the fob. I opened the door, but the car would not wake up. The hazard flasher, the interior lights, the trunk and the wipers worked, but the 17 inch screen and instrument cluster were dark, and the stereo would not operate.
Called Tesla. I told them it was as if the car went to sleep and would not wake up, and asked if there was a way to reboot the car. They informed me they would send a tow truck to get my car to the Rockville (MD) Service Center and arrange for a rental for me. Tesla was very nice and apologetic, but I am somewhat upset. The car has only 100 miles on it and is 2 days old. I have been driving for nearly 40 years, and this is the first car that has left me stranded. Yes, I have had cars that broke (a long time ago; GM cars), but none of my prior cars left me unable to drive them. And I have never owned a Datsun (now Nissan), Infiniti, Audi, Lexus or MB that left me stranded. Even my Corvette, that had a fair amount of problems when new was always driveable to the dealer. My confidence in the car is not high at the moment.
The lttle time I spent driving the car was fun. It is so fast (too fast?). But I am nervous now that the car will not be dependable.
My question to everyone here is whether there is a way to try to reboot the car should this happen again? I asked Tesla, but they said they wanted to see the car. My iphone app shows the car is on-line again (it could not find the car when I was stranded), with the frunk open and parked at the Service Center. So I assume it is running now. Tesla told me they pulled all the logs and the engineers are reviewing the files. Should this happen again, I would like to try to reboot the car instead of losing 4 hours time waiting for a tow truck and a rental car.�
Mar 7, 2013
bluetinc Hey Swegman,
First, that totally blows!
There are a few things that you could try, though depending on what they find, may not have helped.
1. Reboots of the Displays (Dash and center console): You do this by holding the top two buttons down on the steering wheel pads for about 15 seconds, and the center click wheels down also for about 15 seconds.
2. Main dash fuse. There is a yellow fuse in the frunk that can be pulled to cause a hard powerup when reinserted(provided you are the type that likes to pull fuses).
Please let us know what they find from the logs!
Peter�
Mar 7, 2013
yobigd20 perhaps this was something like a faulty 12V battery or loose 12V battery cable. that could have happened on any type of car. no way to really know until you get feedback from Tesla. I would not worry about it, just a fluke. looks like they figured it out pretty fast if you're seeing it online already.�
Mar 7, 2013
bonnie Not that this is an consolation (I'd be upset, too), but experience has shown that an electronic device will most likely fail in the early part of its operating life. "Infant mortality rate." That's the purpose of burn-in --- to catch the majority of the infant mortality failures. The failure rate will then level off throughout normal device life ... and increases again in old age. (Hey! Like all of us!)
I wouldn't use an early failure as a predictor of long-term reliability. And again, I'd be upset...�
Mar 7, 2013
stevezzzz Sorry for your troubles, swegman. I don't think any of us knows enough about what happened to your car to make a recommendation on what you might have done to 'wake it up'. I'd ask that you give Tesla a chance to make it right and try not to let this one experience place a shadow over your enjoyment of the S. Many of us have driven thousands of trouble-free miles in our cars.
At this early stage in the production of an entirely new automobile, every failure in the field represents an opportunity for Tesla to improve their processes and make future vehicles even better. We early adopters should expect some of this: what matters to me when something like this crops up is how the company responds, both in terms of the owner's service experience and improvements in production. Please let us know how it goes for you.�
Mar 7, 2013
Velo1 I may have a way to reboot from sleep mode. But first a brief background: I was having trouble 3 days ago where I would return to the car only to find my driver-side window open. This happened several times over the next two days. Then yesterday I drove to Home Depot, returned to the car, the window was up, but I had a very difficult time getting the door handles to present. Finally after a few minutes the handles presented. I sat in the driver's seat and the car was DOA. Nothing would wake it up. I called the Denver Service Center. They had me pull a 20-amp fuse that serves the display. After pulling the fuse, I waited 10-15 seconds and reinserted. The Service Center was monitoring the car remotely and said it may take 2 minutes to wake up. So after 1:30 I felt a full-bore linear panic starting, but then the big Tesla logo appeared on the display. Another minute later the car was up. I took it directly to the Service Center where they replaced the 12-V battery, as it was not charging. Today the car is fine and perfectly normal, and I am convinced the issue is resolved.
So check your owners manual to see how to access your fuse boxes. You can easily see two boxes side-by-side near the top. Remove the lid/top of the box on the left as you face the windshield. There are 2 different bright Yellow 20-amp fuses, but the one controlling the display is in the 4th column in from the right side of the box, and in the slot closest to the windshield. You may want a pair of small needle-nose pliers to grasp the fuse and wiggle it up and out. Wait 10-15 seconds and reinsert. Try and wake up the car with the FOB, but you may have to wait a few minutes for the display to start lighting up. If that doesn't work, then your service center will need to help.
I bet you, too, have a bad 12-V battery the simply is not charging. The Service Center guy said they have replaced a handful of them, as there seems to be a bad batch or something preventing it from charging. Good luck, too.�
Mar 7, 2013
steve841 Too add / agree with everyone it blows. And yes, I can empathize ... I was left stranded when I had the early 12v battery issue.
Same feelings .... "is this going to happen again???" But, they fixed her up and within a few days confidence was restored and the car has been zen like since....
Its a nasty speed bump, dont let it get you down.�
Mar 7, 2013
Velo1 I forgot to mention that I first tried depressing and holding both scroll buttons, but it didn't wake up the car. It was only after pulling and reinserting the display fuse did the car wake up. I, too, was unable initially to use my iPhone app to log into the car, as it could not connect since it was asleep. The Service Center was able to see the car on their computer, but confirmed it was asleep and they couldn't wake it remotely. It was during my drive to the service center when they contacted TM engineering and, as per their logs on my car, it showed my 12-V betters was only at 8 volts, hence the approval to replace the battery.�
Mar 7, 2013
kinddog can't wait to see this as tomorrow's headline in BusinessInsider...
�
Mar 7, 2013
stopcrazypp If it's just a bad batch of 12V batteries, that should be addressable by stricter 12V battery testing at factory (and like other people said, it could happen with any car). If it's some other problem then it's more worrisome.�
Mar 7, 2013
swegman I had asked the service people if it could be the 12 volt battery. They did not think so, as the door handles, rear trunk, lights and wiper worked. But I'll update everyone after I speak to Tesla tomorrow.
I know I'll eventually get over the confidence issue. But my wife got a new Avalon hybrid at the end of January, for less than half the price of the Tesla, and is repeatedly pointing out to me that she has no problems.�
Mar 7, 2013
MikeL Yikes! A 12V automotive battery is "dead" at about 10.5V-ish. Seems like an awful lot is riding on the proper operation of that one piece of very old technology, but that is also true for any new car.�
Mar 7, 2013
steve841 Suck it up.... And when some young hottie is looking to see who's driving that Tesla, just tell the wife not to worry, it happens all the time.�
Mar 7, 2013
vetboy45 Sorry to hear of your troubles. Being an early adopter is a lot of fun but you can't expect the experience to be 100% for everybody. I haven't had a single issue. The small number of people who have had serious issues seem to be universally impressed with Tesla service and back on the road quickly. Believe me, I'd take a stranding for all the fun I've had driving this thing.�
Mar 7, 2013
dsm363 The door handles and trunk can still work at least with a bad 12V battery (up to a point at least). Hope it gets fixed soon.�
Mar 7, 2013
ckessel FWIW, this is probably going to be the norm for electric cars. All of the drive train related components are either going to work or not work and when they don't work it's probably not anything obvious on physical inspection, which is different than the partial failures you can get in an ICE with things like loose fan belt, soft clutch, one bad fuel injector, etc.
I'm not saying that it's ultimately not as reliable as an ICE (it's probably superior in the long run), just than the failure modes are going to be different.�
Mar 7, 2013
brianman No doubt in my mind it's the 12V (or cabling/fuses related to it).�
Mar 7, 2013
Lyon That's a major bummer! With any mass produced product there's going to be a few immediate failures, no matter how good they get at manufacturing. Even Toyota. Unless this starts happening a lot, I wouldn't worry.
The good news is that Tesla's going to fix your car and it's going to run perfectly for many years to come, the bad news is that your wife may never live it down. And, FWIW, I wouldn't be caught dead in an Avalon!�
Mar 7, 2013
kendallpb That really bites, very frustrating--all I can say is to echo what everyone else said, so I won't repeat it all...but keep us posted, please!
Kendall ;-(�
Mar 8, 2013
dsm363 If it's the 12V battery, we will likely merge this with the main 12V battery thread.�
Mar 8, 2013
swegman tried to check on the car this morning via the iphone app. I noticed last night that the car was not plugged in at the service center, there was 179 miles remaining on the charge and that the cabin temperature was 64 degrees. I guess they don't heat the service center at night. Anyway, can not connect to the car. Don't know what that means. Will have to wait to they open and call them.�
Mar 8, 2013
dsm363 If the 12V battery is down, I don't think you'll be able to connect to the car or that it can charge. They'll likely replace the 12V battery and all will be good I'm hoping.�
Mar 8, 2013
wycolo 12 volt batt ---> hiss . . . boo . . .
Do we really need this archaic throwback?? After all it is just a small reservoir for 12.6 volt dc power. Could be easily replaced with a capacitor like dirt bikes use, with more capacity of course. Better: two caps in parallel so one could be shed if it starts operating out of spec. C'mon Elon, lets go space-age with this royal PIA!!
--
We are detecting continued ravings from this particular I.P. Again, accommodation and consideration is all we ask. Msg 003.�
Mar 8, 2013
justaddsun This all happened at my house as swegman was helping me finish a 14-50 install (btw, I've never been so proud of an outlet before). Better to be in friendly confines than the side of the beltway, right swegman? Anyway, 3 thoughts we had were:
1) should this be posted on TMC? I'm glad it did b/c knowledge can only come from it (and maybe some bad press...).
2) same thought that someone else posted: this electronics/computer everything system probably means it is either working or it's not (no halfway working/limp mode) which makes for way more dramatic fails ie tow trucks in the parking lots kind of scene (as an aside, flatbeds and rentals cannot be cheap for TM).
3) I was just as concerned as swegman about this, mainly b/c I am expecting my MS in a few weeks and the last thing I needed was for my wife to get home from work and see this 2 day old one being lifted on a tow truck! Not good for morale as we hand over the check.
Anyway, you handled it great and we will all learn from this. How could you be that frustrated with something like this (sorry to keep posting pics of your car, but somebody's got to do it!)?
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2�
Mar 8, 2013
Iz While it may not always be good press, communicating vehicle issues is very important to owners, future owners and to TM. Of all the problems reported, the 12V battery appears to have the largest impact on drivability.�
Mar 8, 2013
WarpedOne IIRC they disable remote access while servicing the car.�
Mar 8, 2013
FlasherZ They do sometimes, but you'll be told that "remote access is disabled", rather than "unable to connect" which signals out-of-range or... something else.�
Mar 8, 2013
Velo1 While waiting to hear of a positive resolution here, I thought I'd add my initial impression of seeing my 12-V battery being replaced. The battery itself is much smaller than that on an ICE car, plus it is located under a support bracket or brace used for crash protection. So the service center guy has to dissemble the bracket/brace first, but this took them only a few minutes. The whole process of removing, replacing and reassembly, plus verifying all systems go, took about 30 minutes, and kudos to the technicians as they impressed me with their skill and knowledge about the car.
Also while we wait, a sidebar: I showed my car to our local Goodyear dealer, who has always performed service on our ICE cars. He was both impressed and depressed, as he looked at me and said "I hope to make it to retirement in 5 years, but as more and more of these EVs become common, I can see our service business declining.". He then brought out a 20-year old technician and told him I need an oil change. The kid had now clue what he was looking at, and when I popped the Frunk, he said "so the engine's in the rear," then I popped the trunk and he stood there scratching his head while his boss was laughing like a hyena. I told the dealer, at least I will be buying tires from you in 3-4 years. Gotta roll.�
Mar 8, 2013
Plug Me In Ha - that reminds me of the old Navy days when kids would get sent to the fire room for a bucket of steam. That in itself reminds me of the advance of technology as you want find oil-fired boilers or fire rooms on Navy ships anymore.�
Mar 8, 2013
Doug_G Stuff happens. The last time I bought a Ford, the transmission disintegrated a few days later.
- - - Updated - - -
They are supposed to. Imagine someone working near a 400V cable and the customer remotely honks the horn...�
Mar 8, 2013
Velo1 Folks I need to correct myself - it was not the 30-amp fuse, but the 20-amp fuse (yellow, in Fuse Box 2, labeled F51 in owners manual), and it is located in the top left fuse box, fourth column in from the right-hand side/edge, and closest to the windshield. This fuse F51 serves the touchscreen display. The 30-amp fuse was for another troubleshooting action the service tech was having me attempt, but it was only after focusing in on the yellow F51 fuse did the car reboot. Sorry about the confusion.:redface:�
Mar 8, 2013
swegman Spoke to Tesla. They still have no idea what is wrong. Was told that they are waiting for the engineers in CA. However, they did tell me it is not the 12 volt battery. The battery is good. The car is back on-line, so i assume it is "live" now. I was told that they have not seen this issue before. Thus, I think (nothing to base this on, other than a feeling), that they are examining the car very carefully to find the cause. Which is good for all other owners. But in the meantime, I miss my car. The rental they gave me is a 2013 Pasaat from Enterprise.
While I am inconvenienced by this, Tesla has been very nice. They arranged for towing, a rental car, and even that I be picked up and Taken to Enterprise. They told me when my car is ready, I can leave the rental car at the Rockville (MD) Service Center (where my car is), and they will take care of getting it back to the rental location in VA. All this is on Tesla's dime, without me even asking. Their treatment of me in this situation has been great. The only way it could be better would be if they gave me a Model S loaner.�
Mar 8, 2013
vfx If it's the 12V battery low (or even if not) then I look at what was working. Door (eventually), emergency flashers, interior lights, the trunk and the wipers worked, things you need when stuck on the road.
You should edit your original post.
- - - Updated - - -
That will be they day they have made it.�
Mar 8, 2013
kinddog correct. your inconvenience will be a big learning opportunity for the team at Tesla and will prevent others from having the same issue.
so... thanks for falling on the grenade on this one!
lets meet up when you get your car back. twins, Basel... TWINS!�
Mar 8, 2013
Ardie Hmmm. I wonder if the key Fob itself is the baddie here...
-- Ardie�
Mar 8, 2013
Al Sherman Pretty doubtful at this point. No?�
Mar 8, 2013
GeekGirls I had a similar experience a few weeks ago while charging at work. I received a ChargePoint text message indicating that the cable had been unplugged, which seemed unlikely. I was also sure the car shouldn't have been fully charged, which used to trigger the same message prior to 4.2. When I went to the car to check it out I had the same symptoms: handles didn't auto-extend, but they responded to a double-press on the fob. Inside, the dash and touchscreen were unresponsive.
Tesla sent a ranger who removed the yellow jumper described elsewhere in this thread, waited a few minutes, and replaced it. I was told that there was only one similar report where the car "turtled" like this when dealing with a situation that shouldn't arise, and that it's a form of self-defence against chargers that violate specifications. Presumably later firmware updates will be designed to allow easier recovery? In any case, I'm sure I could find and remove the jumper if I needed to repeat the process.
This process compared favourably with my experience a few weeks prior after I found out our Boxster's battery was dead (it still had the original battery and hadn't been driven in a month - I suspect you can guess why!) Jump-starting a Boxster turns out to be a royal pain because you can't open the hood when it's dead, and the procedure listed in the owners manual didn't work. We wound up borrowing a device that loads the 12V system sufficiently through the "cigarette lighter" outlet to allow the hood to be released. It was interesting to compare the two experiences.�
Mar 8, 2013
JakeP I have had that happen with the Boxster, and what a pain it is. But there is a trick: above the left front tire there is a spot in the wheel well where you can access the cable that opens the hood. It might be covered with a small plastic door, but it is fairly obvious. Grab that cable and pull down and/or twist it enough, and the hood will pop open. I think I found this originally on 986forum.com.�
Mar 8, 2013
swegman Geekgirls, the car was not connected to a charger, so your issue was different from mine.
Doesn't look like I will have the car this weekend. The app loses contact with the car, then sees it later, then loses it again. Last time it connected to the car, all doors, the frunk and the trunk we open, and the interior temperature was indicated to be 74 degrees. At this moment, I lost contact with the car.
Kinddog, happy to meet when this is behind me.
- - - Updated - - -
Just got off the phone with the srvice center. Not getting the car back today. They told me the techs are in constant touch with the engineers in CA trying to figure out the problem. Apparently the car has "gone to sleep" on its own several times while at the service center, and then "woke up" on its own. Diagnostics indicates an error code, but they have not been able to ascertain if there is a crimped or broken wire, a loose connection, or a software bug. The techs are checking every wire and connection on the car. I cringe imaging the whole interior is removed to gain access to all the wiring, and hope that is not the case.
I need to be patient. I know Tesla is doing what they can. I just so wanted to drive the car this weekend. On the bright side, if I can't drive it, I don't risk getting stopped by the MD/VA police for not having a cardboard temporary license, or risk getting a speeding ticket.�
Mar 8, 2013
yobigd20 FYI mobile connectivity is down right now for everyone. They must be updating the backend server infrastructure for the upcoming 4.3 update. So that connectivity to your car is not an issue.�
Mar 8, 2013
rlpm Instant Classic!�
Mar 8, 2013
Velo1 Done, thanks. I forgot we had an edit option, as I read both this and the TM Forum, which cannot be edited.�
Mar 8, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla swegman, really sorry to see your troubles. Has to be asked: at what point would this car have to be considered a lemon? What's the legal recourse then for you where you live in case Tesla decides to not consider replacing your car entirely but you feel otherwise?�
Mar 8, 2013
swegman I have not thought about that and hope it does not get to that point. I do remember Tesla providing the law for the various States wen signing the final MVPA. I think they deserve a chance to fix the car before even thinking of such drastic action. I am trusting that Tesla will do whatever is needed to fix the car.�
Mar 8, 2013
Todd Burch Sweg: sorry to hear of your troubles. I lost my car for a week soon after delivery. P1577, so I'd been waiting a very long time. The wait was painful, but when I got the car back, it ws just that much sweeter. Hold out a few days longer and it will be worth it!�
Mar 8, 2013
FlasherZ There are different laws in different states (and countries). Most of the recommendations I've seen recommend giving formal notice to the manufacturer/dealer after a repair is attempted 3 times for the same problem, or if the vehicle has been out of service for 8 different incidents or more than 15-20 days. The dealer or manufacturer usually gets one final attempt to fix the problem.
That said, my experience so far says Tesla won't let it get that far.�
Mar 8, 2013
brianman The vehicle can still talk to home (Tesla) over 3G with the battery below the point of the 17" displays being available, at least to the point of Tesla being able to identify the main pack's SOC. There was evidence of this in the Broder reporting, for example.�
Mar 8, 2013
Joyrider Isn't this jumping the gun, a litte? Oh oh, I just sneezed. Hope I don't get pneumonia and die...let's see where did I put my will.�
Mar 8, 2013
jomo25 I get what you are saying and would generally agree. But I think what happened is a bit more than a "sneeze".
�
Mar 9, 2013
Joyrider What happened so far, as much as it might be a real downer, does not qualify the car as a lemon under any lemon law I have heard of. If the problem can't be fixed, or keeps returning once it is, than we're talkin'. As far as I can see, nothing has happened yet to indicate either of those scenarios is happening or can be expected.�
Mar 9, 2013
stevezzzz Velo1, even after you edited it I still see that your original post refers to the 'wrong' (30A) fuse. I'm so confused...�
Mar 9, 2013
Velo1 Hopefully it stays corrected now. I made the edits and saved it, but for whatever reason the correction didn't appear -at least the initial time. Perhaps pilot error, as I was using my iPhone, which is a bit difficult at times for me to manipulate the "keys". Thanks�
Mar 9, 2013
tezco Is there a jumper wire in addition to the fuse that Velo1 mentions?�
Mar 9, 2013
swegman Just got off the phone with Tesla. Still no progress. They tell me they are waiting on the engineers in CA to give further guidance. The car has now been in for repair longer than I have had it.�
Mar 9, 2013
Velo1 Good question, as I wondered the same. When I saw the 12-V battery it was smaller than what I'm used to seeing in ICE cars, but it did have + and - terminals. I would like to know if the battery could be attached to a standard battery and be "jump" started?�
Mar 9, 2013
ggr I'm not sure whether this will help or not. But when our Roadster was a couple of months old, it had an intermittent problem where, when parked, it would just start spewing apparently random error messages. And, of course, not go anywhere. We had it picked up, and interestingly they pushed it out of the garage and then drove it onto the truck! It seemed fine. But the logs had all these weird error messages. Anyway they did all sorts of stuff to it, including a new PEM, and returned it after about two weeks, just in time for an Earth Day display at work. Unfortunately about a week later the problem recurred. It took about three weeks this time (BTW, that *does* make it a lemon under CA lemon law). It turned out that a wiring harness over the back axle had either broken or not been done right in the first place, and the wiring could fall onto the axle, which wore off some of the insulation. When moving there was generally no problem, but if parked, and things happened just the wrong way, it shorted the CANBUS and caused the problem. Tesla shipped two of the engineers down to Santa Monica, and I gather told them not to come back until it was fixed.
I was of course very disheartened at the time. But (and here's the point of the story), (a) Tesla WILL take care of you, and (b) when it comes back you'll fall in love all over again.
So buck up. And if you're in San Diego contact me and I'll lend you the roadster, but I gather you're not, and it isn't an open invitation for anyone.�
Mar 9, 2013
jerry33 Yes, there are jumper terminals under the plastic nosecone (no need to find the actual battery). Use a credit card to gently work the nosecone off. Have service show you how to do this if necessary.�
Mar 9, 2013
swegman GGR, thank you for the offer. That is very gracious of you, and too much to ask for. I could not accept, even if were in San Diego. It just shows the "family" that is created by mutual ownership of the Model S.
I know I will fall in love with it again when it is returned to me. I also believe that Tesla will do everything possible to fix it, as soon as possible. I have no complaints with the Rockville (MD) Service Center so far. I just wish I had been able to enjoy the car a little more (and put on more than 100 miles) before this happened.�
Mar 9, 2013
neroden There was actually a technology used once with railroad locomotives with no boiler, which refilled a steam reservoir -- basically a bucket of steam -- from a fixed steam boiler at the side of the track.
--
Regarding the original problem, I have a story which may be relevant. We recently had to *replace a circuitboard* on an ICE car -- it had been causing weird problems which two different repair shops failed to identify, before we went to the one really scientific repair shop in the area. If you've got something like a subtle circuitboard fault, it can be extremely hard to track down. The goal in this case should be to figure out which subsystem it is -- which takes a lot of time and experimentation, cutting out one subsystem at a time and reproducing the problem. At that point it may be a matter of simply replacing an entire circuitboard. When computer motherboards go flaky like that, people generally replace the entire machine.�
Mar 11, 2013
wycolo > I would like to know if the battery could be attached to a standard battery and be "jump" started? [Velo1]
Just to clarify: yes, the 12 volt battery in the Teslas is simply a smallish 12 volt lead-acid battery sized similarly to the batteries found in ICE garden tractors. It can be jumpered by any ~equally sized (or larger) 12 volt battery. It should NOT be used to jumper a significantly larger 12 volt battery, ie an ICE car/truck battery!
--�
Mar 11, 2013
swegman They still have no idea what is going on. Today, I was told that the logs indicate there may be a resistance problem that could have caused the car to shut down. Or it could be an erroneous reading. The engineers in CA instructed the service center to measure the resistance of each battery cell, and the resistance of each wiring harness and send them the results. So now they are telling me there could be a problem with the 85kWh battery, it could be a problem with the wiring or a loose connection, or it may be a software problem. This is basically what I was told since Thursday. In other words, no progress has been made in narrowing down the cause of the car dying.
At this point, I am very discouraged. The car has been in the shop more than twice as long as I have had it, and I don't see any end in sight. I feel like the service people are gropping in the dark and really don't know what to do. As a result, if I ever get the car back, I don't think I will feel that they actually found the problem and don't think I will feel confident driving the car beyond my immediate home, for fear it will die again. Family and friends keep telling me I should have bought another Lexus instead of this car, which doesn't help the situation.
The iphone app lost touch with the car early this morning, so I assume the car went back to sleep again.
I'm thinking of paying a personal visit to the service center on Tuesday, and then try to call Elon or George. Maybe if they become aware of the situation, something will happen.�
Mar 11, 2013
Lyon I would totally send an email or private message to GeorgeB to let him know what's going on. At this point it looks like they're doing what they can to figure it out. My sister got a new Passat a while ago and it kept dying during hard left turns. They basically took it apart and found a wire that had been clipped during production. It kept rolling over and grounding out on the block. They fixed it and the car was solid until she sold it earlier this year, it was a 1999. The point is that these things happen in manufacturing but, once fixed, they have no bearing on the car's future reliability.�
Mar 11, 2013
andrewket Measuring each cell will take a long time (what was it - 7k+ cells?). If they suspect the battery pack, why not replace the entire pack and then test the old one on their time, not the OP's.�
Mar 11, 2013
swegman Can someone post or PM me Elon's and George's email addresses. Thanks�
Mar 11, 2013
carrerascott This is really lousy. I would message GeorgeB and email Elon. If this was going on with a "press" car it would be a disaster. They need to find out what's wrong and keep you in the loop, or get you a new car. I don't think Elon would like to hear how this is being handled...�
Mar 11, 2013
swegman For one thing, the service center does not have a spare battery pack. Second, they are not convinced it is the battery. It just as likely could be the wiring or a software bug. I agree measuring 7,000 batteries will take a long time. I also feel that if a person is measuring 7000 plus cells, human error can occur in the testing operation.�
Mar 11, 2013
stopcrazypp The problem is the service center may not have all the expertise to diagnose everything, which is why they have to phone to engineers. They may have to fly over an engineer or ship the car back. But even doing so will not guarantee they will find the issue any quicker, esp. given it's a new one that has not popped up in other cars.
They are going to have to do diagnostics on every subsystem and that's going to take some time.�
Mar 11, 2013
pguerra Very sorry to hear this. This is a worst case scenario or close to it. Thanks for sharing.
1) Keep the faith. We all rolled the dice buying this car and it could've (and still could) happen to any one of us. For example, I haven't sold my Prius yet so I can keep it around just in case your same situation happens to me.
2) Tell your friends/family to be quiet b/c it doesn't help the situation.
3) Inquire about how long should you give Tesla before it is reasonable to demand a new vehicle. In any event, Tesla should move fast on this one b/c word travels quickly and another negative press article "$100k Tesla Model S - Dead As A Doornail on Day 2" would not help Tesla sales - the lifeblood of the company.
I ran into another Tesla owner with a badly cracked windshield, A/C heater problems screwing up the electronics and another big prob I can't remember. Perhaps they are building a little too fast...
BTW my frunk won't open and they need to replace the manual latch assembly. Appt for repairs is next week. ...bummer b/c I just love driving this car.�
Mar 11, 2013
Francis Lau Kinda off topic but I have the same issue too. My frunk was stuck - popped but secondary latch did not release, they adjusted it once soit works but then a few days later, same issue. Now, I am waiting for a part so that the latch can be replaced.�
Mar 12, 2013
Martini The car is under active troubleshooting by the service centre. There is no way to rush this process. I can't see any reason how emailing the CEO or other company officers will help the process, and if there is information from the situation that is valuable for them, they should have internal processes to handle that. It's a tough situation, but all you can do is wait.�
Mar 12, 2013
justaddsun Just read a post in the delivery section about someone emailing Elon about difficulty financing and getting an email back in 2 hours... Although that may have been b/c it's a finance question
You should be Tesla's number one priority right now for reasons we all know are really vital to how we and the public look at these cars.
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Mar 12, 2013
swegman To all those that say be patient, I ask how you would react if you just paid $105K+ for your vehicle and after you put less than a hundred miles on the car it dies and have to be towed, and the service people keep telling you the car goes to sleep by itself, cannot be woken up until it decides it wants to wake up, and they have no idea why it is doing this.
I have been patient. I have not complained to Tesla or yelled at them. But it is starting to get ridiculous. Service has the car now for 5 days and is no farther along in finding the cause of the problem than they were on day 1. Perhaps if Elon or George gets wind of this they will send an engineer to the site to work on the problem. I can tell you going back and forth between the engineers in CA and the service center is not very efficient and productive for a serious problem like this. Perhaps if an engineer is on site, he/she may be better able to fix the car.�
Mar 12, 2013
kinddog
unfortunately, I agree.
I know you are bummed, swegman, but unless you think the Rockville SC is knowingly dragging their feet, or that they just don't care about the situation, then emailing Musk or GB will do nothing but make the situation worse. The folks at Rockville SC will not appreciate that and it won't make them more enthusiastic about fixing your car if you run and tell mom on them.
If I were you, I would make an appointment with them. Make it for a couple days out, maybe Friday. Tell them you want to come by and have a long discussion about what is going on. That will motivate them to work their asses off the next couple of days, and they will also have time to get you some solid answers. Speaking with you over the phone probably only goes so far. Going there in person and staying for a while, introducing yourself to almost everyone who works there, and (most importanly) BEING POLITE AND FRIENDLY, yet firm about your disappointment and expectations, will get you a lot further. At the end of the visit, sit down with them and make out an "action list" of what to expect in the next couple days and weeks. Ask "at what point do lemon laws have to be considered in this situation"? You can even bluff and tell them that your brother-in-law works for the Loudoun Times Mirror and wanted to do a story on the car, but because of this, he can't.
Basically, drop some very big "worry points" to them, but do it with a smile and a "we're in this together" attitude, instead of an adversarial stance. I know this is shocking coming from the one and only Kinddog, but I do know a thing or two about how to get what I want.
At the end of the day, they are paying for a rental car for you, so there is no real inconvenience factor in your life because of this. So while it sucks you don't have your Model S, you gotta remember that life is sometimes a crapshoot. Sh*t happens. But remember it's just a material possession and how you treat people at the end of the day is what really matters. You still have the choice whether to wake up and be happy that you are healthy and alive, or pissed off and angry about a material good.
The Tesla team wishes this didn't happen as much as you do. Your attitude about it can either make it tolerable, or much worse for everyone involved. You have waited an incredibly long time for the car already (I assume you reserved last summer?), so what is a couple more weeks in the big scheme of things?
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just to manage your own expectations and sanity, I think you should start thinking in terms of weeks here, not days.�
Mar 12, 2013
DFibRL8R "You can even bluff and tell them that your brother-in-law works for the Loudoun Times Mirror and wanted to do a story on the car, but because of this, he can't."
Maybe Broder got reassigned to a new gig in Leesburg, Virginia�
Mar 12, 2013
justaddsun Just got an update from swegman and he coincidentally seemed to do a lot of what kinddog recommended this morning at RSC. I'll let him provide the details.
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Mar 12, 2013
AnOutsider 100% agreed. Give them a bit of time to do their thing and reserve judgement.�
Mar 12, 2013
Jeff Miller Swegman, this will be small consolation to you, but if it makes you feel any better I had to take my car to the service center five days after I got it for a power steering issue. They ended up keeping the car for 11 days, during which I had many of the same thoughts that you are having now. In the end they were not able to definitively pinpoint the problem so they replaced the whole steering rack and steering assist motor. It's been working fine since I got it back last week. I think one way to look at your situation is that Tesla has (at least) as great an interest in fixing your car as you do. Their reputation depends on it. For that reason alone, I'm totally confident they are doing their best to to fix your car as quickly as they can, and although it may, unfortunately, take somewhat longer than you like, they will get it fixed. When my car was in the shop, I asked the head of the service center in Chicago (which was great) to keep me updated on a daily basis even if they didn't have any progress to report. They were very good about doing that, calling me once a day to give me an update. Just being kept in the loop made the experience less painful.�
Mar 12, 2013
Doug_G I think you'll find that, in the early days, there will be rare faults that they don't recognize from the symptoms. It may take them a substantial amount of time to diagnose the first time they encounter such a problem (like the "mouse flatulence" thread). Once they understand the problem, that won't happen again. The moment they see the symptoms again they'll be, "oh, we know what that is!" and the problem will be fixed very quickly.
Of course it's inevitably an unfortunate and annoying inconvenience for the first customer affected... but I doubt there's anything they can do to prevent that.�
Mar 12, 2013
swegman I went to the Service Center this morning and met with the manager. I had met him when I picked up the car and found him to be very pleasant and he was again today. He remembered me as I walked in and expressed his regret at what is happening.
It was a friendly meeting. I went there for several reasons. I wanted to get a better idea of what is happening and I wanted to make sure they understood that I was not blaming them for the situation.
They explained to me that they do not have an idea what is causing the problem with the car. The car has repeatedly gone to sleep on its own, and there is nothing they can do to wake it up, other than wait until the car decides it wants to wake up. Nothing they do wakes the car when it goes to sleep.
The logs indicate there were some error messages between the 12 volt battery communication and the 85kWh battery. But they are unable to replicate the errors or figure out its cause or make the car generate the error messages. When the car is awake, it operates properly and without error messages.
They informed me that headquarters is aware of the problem and discusses it with them several times a day. I was also told that if they can't fix the car in the next day or two, an engineer will be sent from CA to the service center.
The way things go right now, they run diagnostic tests and forward the results to the CA engineers, who then advise them further what to do. This procedure is somewhat inefficient, as they must wait for instructions before trying the next thing.
I told them I do not blame them, and have repeatedly told people on the 877 telephone number that I do not blame the people at the service center. I wanted them to understand that. They are as frustrated as I am. It is as if the car is possessed, as it goes to sleep and wakes up on its own, and will not respond to any of their attempts to wake the car up.
At present they think there may be a bad connection somewhere, but have not been able to find one. Alternatively, they say it could be a software issue, and if that is the case, only the CA engineers will be able to determine that. I was told that a software update was in the works, and that perhaps that is why it is taking so long for the CA engineers to get back to them.
I will wait a few more days to see whether any progress is made.�
Mar 12, 2013
kinddog another point... i know you (swegman) think there should be real engineers/techs in the service centers... not just a "hands team" acting out what the engineers in Palo Alto are directing them to do. That is a fair point, but the fact that this structure doesn't exist isn't negligence or cheapness on Tesla's part. Rather, it's due to the fact that they are a start up. Right now, the economics of the situation says they need all their engineers in California. This is, for now, the most efficient and effective service structure and use of their extremely limited resources. it wouldn't surprise me if a year from now, they have an engineer at each service station. but at that time, they might be running at an actual profit.
basically, they can't afford it right now.
that said, most people have had GREAT service experiences so far. so your case is very unique and serious. but that's no reason for them to re-write their entire service model.
basically, it just sucks being you right now. grab a bottle of wine and get drunk or something...�
Mar 12, 2013
montgom626 I had a Audi A8L that was in the shop for 30 days while they fixed it. Best darn car I owned. I loved it. never had any problems since that 30 day stay. Fixing cars can take some time.�
Mar 12, 2013
swegman Kinddog, its not an issue of resources that there are no engineers at each service center. It was explained to me today that much of the car's tech is kept secret from all but a few people in order to prevent leakage of the technology to others. The people in the service center are trained to troubleshoot the most common issues, but when there is a serious issue, only a few people are provided with the complete design and workings of the car. This is not unique to Tesla, but apparently the way many (if not all) car manuafacturers operate.
Personally, I think that if MB, Toyota or GM wanted to know everything about the car, they have the resources and talent to just buy a car and reverse engineer it.�
Mar 12, 2013
kinddog oh... wow. that's kinda cool actually. i stand corrected..�
Mar 12, 2013
wiztecy I wouldn't let this one experience give you the overall picture of EV's. I work in Consumer Electronics in Millions of Mass quantities of production. There are a few defects that can't be caught by Quality Assurance / Testing and the true testers are the consumers in the field. The thing is whether a company wants, will, or is motivated to fix the issue. Looking at the model S its the 1st Gen of this vehicle. for any product of a 1st gen release you have to have some cushion to allow these types of issues to appear. I think Tesla should build a good support to not leave a customer hanging, however, getting your car in that troubled state will help Tesla and others have more robust vehicle in the future.
I'm a true believer in EVs. I swapped out all my mowers, weed wackers, blowers, and a a motorcycle, even a skateboard for the electric / Lithium Ion versions and I'm not regretting it at all. I also have a Tesla Roadster 1.5 that I'm truly in love with. This weekend I was playing around in some twisty turns when a BMW M3 came up behind me. I gave it a quick sprits through the first corner, even heard his car downshift and hit high rpms as he disappeared from my rear view mirror. There's nothing that touches that, pure power, quickness, and excitement, and bottom line consistency from the push of the accelerator from a high performance EV.
Even with my Roadster with minor issues I hit I was very critical and vocal, however, Tesla was there 24/7 and corresponding with emails which showed they were concerned and motivated. I've never had that support with any other car or product manufacturer and praise them for that.
Once you get your S back and have a week with it the joy and pure amazing driving experience will come back I'm sure.
I know its allot of $$$ for the S but with any 1st Generation vehicle or device its always been this way, you're helping pave the way for others.�
Mar 12, 2013
Martini My brother in law bought an Audi A3, which was a lot of car for him at the time. It spent three months total in the shop in five separate visits, much more than half of the time he owned it. It had an intermittent electrical problem that they were unable to duplicate in the shop. They replaced a bunch of parts and then tried to tell him it was all in his head and stonewalled him for two months more. He had to go to the mattresses with the dealer but finally they gave him a new car. And that was not a early-adopter car, and Audi was not a start-up. On the bell curve of experiences, somebody has to be on the left tail. They will fix it or you will get a new car, and I bet you won't have to fight them like my bro did with Audi.�
Mar 12, 2013
JMO I am sorry for your troubles.
Florida has something called "Lemon Law" which means that if you get a "lemon" you can have to be given a new car.... hope there is a law like that where you live.
Knowing Tesla's customer service, however, you will not need to use any laws. I am sure Tesla will give you a new car. You may have to wait for it though.�
Mar 13, 2013
kendallpb People keep talking about Lemon Laws, so to put it to rest--yes, Maryland has one. "The law provides that a dealer or manufacturer must correct a defect within 30 days after the consumer writes to the manufacturer by certified mail." They have either 30 days or 4 visits, but the latter is clearly aimed at places that don't fully fix things; Tesla obviously doesn't want to return the vehicle until they are sure it's fixed. More details at the link. Premature to consider it a lemon, by far, but if paranoid that it won't be fixed, a certified letter's the way to go.
Honestly, I don't feel it's warranted. Obviously they want to figure this out and fix it. But that's Swegman's call, of course, whether to proceed. Good luck, Steve! I know you feel like you can never trust it but seriously, the hope here is that they identify the problem and fix it--then there will be no reason not to trust the car you get back! I hope they do send an engineer.
Since they suspect something related to the 12-volt (even if it's not the battery, just interface between it and the main battery), I wonder that they don't (a) replace the 12 volt and (b) replace however it connects to the main battery. Or maybe that's part of what they're working on/deciding to do
Anyway, good luck and keep us posted. I know it's tough. And like many, I'm surprised at--but mostly in agreement with--kinddog's comments. ;-)�
Mar 13, 2013
swegman Another update, they found a couple of connections that were near the limit of the resistance range. They fixed those and thought that would take care of the problem. They took the car to be washed in preparation to return to me. Unfortunately, the car went to sleep at the car wash. So, they are back to square one.�
Mar 13, 2013
kinddog hey now... :tongue:
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aw, that SUCKS! so close!�
Mar 13, 2013
PeterSZ Sweg rest assured that even from the other side of the Atlantic we are closely watching and hoping (and expecting) that Tesla is going to fix this for you!�
Mar 13, 2013
Raffy.Roma I think that you (swegman) shouldn't worry at all. Your car is under guarantee. If they will not manage to work out the problem you will get a new car for sure.
The fact is that Model S is a completely new car, whose technology is very much at the border of present technology. For this reason what happened to you (swegman) should be considered normal. Maybe that Tesla will find out a problem whose solution will be useful for next buyers.
I know that for me it's easy to say this not being at your place but this is my opinion anyway.�
Mar 13, 2013
MikeC Painful, man. Hope you get a resolution soon.�
Mar 13, 2013
kendallpb LOL, just had to tease. Not serious at all, actually.�
Mar 13, 2013
swegman Digitaltim's car died today with the same symptoms that my car has, thou that does not mean it is the same problem. And I got an email from cinergi that his car previously died just like mine. Cinergi's car had a bad dc-dc converter. I told that to my service center. They said they had checked that part but would check again.�
Mar 13, 2013
brianman @swegman - I hope you get a healthy vehicle back in your hands soon. Maybe they should start making "Get Well Soon" cards for cars.
@Tesla - When I hear stories like this I think, "discount on 4yr service plan for this customer". If it isn't a huge financial problem for Tesla (i.e. if they have a large volume of such situations), that's a simple stroke that would repair a lot of the damage to the experience of such customers. And the brand loyalty and goodwill that comes with such gestures is hard to overstate.�
Mar 14, 2013
kinddog haha... i know man...�
Mar 14, 2013
RubberToe This is going to turn into a "very big deal" very quickly, mark my words. I'm not saying that it should, but given the visibility that Tesla is getting from the journalistic community, this story will take off like a SpaceX rocket. Cars running out of battery juice because of an incompetent journalist is one thing, and that was easily refuted by Tesla. Car(s) dropping dead is another level of magnitude entirely.
RT�
Mar 14, 2013
swegman I'm willing to be patient, to a point, and let Tesla try to figure out what is wrong. I was told this morning that the service center received another car with the same problem and they traced it to a high resistance connector to the DC-DC converter. They just found the same problem with the connector on my car. If that is truly the problem, all will hopefully be fine, thou Tesla may (in my opinion) want to investigate whether the connector requires a re-design. They will hopefully contact me this afternoon with an update.
I want to note again that I have no complaints with the Rockville (MD) Service Center. I just want my car back to drive. I have been without it for a week now.�
Mar 14, 2013
Merrill Swegman, we are all with you on this and I hope they find a solution quickly, it is a real bummer to have such a fantastic vehicle and not be able to enjoy it. It leaves a bad taste in your mouth, but once it gets resolved I hope you can look to the future and enjoy it. It will be interesting to see how Tesla handles this, because guaranteed this will not be the last situation of this kind that they will see.�
Mar 14, 2013
kinddog ermahgerd, threer cers ert erf tern thersernd! Whert erver sherl wer der?�
Mar 14, 2013
justaddsun swegman is a high roller -- so far he is at $1000 per mile driven
Looks like they are on to a bit of a pattern here, ?including what they find with digitaltim...
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2�
Mar 14, 2013
JakeP We feel your pain Swegman, and I hope that this allows Tesla to prevent this from happening on other cars down the line.
Personally I can relate, as I am smack in the middle of a week without my two-month old car, as it undergoes a paint correction/detail and reinstallation of paint armor (including full hood this time) to address scratches and issues present upon delivery (during the Dec 2012 mad rush). I am of course very grateful to Tesla for graciously performing these corrections, but it is SOOOOOOO hard to drive my ICE car while I wait for the Tesla's return. I swear the BMW engine sounds like rocks being ground together after the Tesla silence. And of course, the weather is warm and sunny for pretty much the first time since I got the car!�
Mar 14, 2013
Oyvind.H Some norwegian Nissan Leaf owners have had to live without their Leafs for weeks, even monts, because of a faulty DC-DC converter. If it`s any consolation�
Mar 14, 2013
swegman The connectors do not appear to have been the problem. They have now ordered a new high voltage junction box to replace the one in the car. Anyone know what this part is and what it does?�
Mar 14, 2013
SkyKidFalken I sometimes have problem open the door no matter how hard I pull the handle.�
Mar 14, 2013
radinator If the LED light in the handle is not working also, then you will have to get the door handle replaced. Same thing happened to me with the driver's door.�
Mar 14, 2013
stopcrazypp According to page 7 of the Model S emergency response guide:
http://www.evsafetytraining.org/Resources/Auto-Manufacturer-Resources/~/media/Electric%20Vehicle/Files/PDFs/Tesla_ModelS_ERG.PDF�
Mar 14, 2013
swegman Thanks for the info. Not certain how this would prevent the car from waking up, or go to sleep on its own.�
Mar 15, 2013
EdPalermo I picked up my Blue loaded 85 today from Westchester Mall and drove home to my home on Long Island. Plugged it at home with 170 miles left and similar problem to Swegman. Car basically went to sleep. Ranger came and woke it up for a minute and then back to sleep. Very disappointed as Ranger told me that they cant come to get it until Monday morning. Really hard to spend over $100,000 and have this happen. After reading this thread, I'm preparing for long haul. I hoped it might be a quick fix.....�
Mar 16, 2013
digitaltim My car had similar set of symptoms but never wakes up without a hard reboot of center console by pulling the fuse. It then immediately shuts down.
Tesla flatbed towed it to the Rockville service center where they will replace the main battery.
I'll let you know the outcome - next report out will be on Monday.�
Mar 16, 2013
swegman Digitaltim, I think I was at the service center when your car was brought in. Is it a signature red with 19 inch wheels and a license plate starting with "F" (if I remember correctly)?
I'm still without the car but hoping to get it back today.�
Mar 16, 2013
dsm363 Great. So they think they fixed it then?�
Mar 16, 2013
digitaltim My plate is EIRE4VR - I am sure that was mine. I do have 19" wheels on right now - 21" will go back on soon.
I asked them to detail the car and do full hood paint armor while it is there.
Fingers crossed your issue gets resolved soon!!!�
Mar 16, 2013
swegman Just got home from picking up the car. Hope it is fixed. Time will tell.�
Mar 16, 2013
jomo25 Great to hear you have it back. I hope too that they have found the issue and fixed it. May take some time to re-gain your full trust, but hopefully, they and the car do and you get your Tesla grin back...�
Mar 16, 2013
carrerascott Awesome. Let's hope they fixed it for good!�
Mar 16, 2013
Merrill Glad to hear your back in your MS, what was the problem? Did they give you info on what they found was the problem. Hope you can get back to enjoying the vehicle.�
Mar 16, 2013
digitaltim Congrats - fingers still crossed!!!�
Mar 16, 2013
Todd Burch Awesome swegman, hope the car's solid for you from here on out.
Digitaltim, don't you have 10k miles on your car? And aren't you getting a battery pack replacement? If so that's at least some consolation...they're taking 10k miles of life off of your pack!�
Mar 16, 2013
kendallpb AWESOME! You are a patient man and I know Tesla appreciates it. What a frustrating PITA it must've been. I'm so happy you have it back and I hope it's all good now and you can enjoy the car. :-D
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Yowza, please do keep us posted. I'm very sorry to hear this and I hope it has a quicker resolution--hopefully it will, if it is actually the same issue as swegman's!�
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