Sep 9, 2015
anticitizen13.7 Just a heads up on more possible trouble in Model X land :cursing:
It appears that Model X does not have a second row that can fold. See this thread: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/53255-Reasons-you-might-cancel-your-MX-reservation/page2
And
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/52842-Will-the-second-row-seats-fold-flat-If-so-how/page27
If this is true, and the seats don't have any alternative method of getting themselves out of the way in order to accommodate long cargo, the X may actually have less utility than the S in terms of things like wide TVs and lumber.
Tesla's silence on the issue, even apparently to Signature Series reservation holders, is of concern to me, as it could possibly signal higher than expected order cancellations.
In the long run, I believe that Tesla could eventually sort out the second row issue should it prove to put a dent in sales, but this could mean a slower than expected ramp.�
Sep 9, 2015
drinkerofkoolaid This isn't new, and probably isn't accurate. Below is a pic from this link.
http://my.teslamotors.com/fr_CH/forum/forums/worried-about-model-x-seating
�
Sep 9, 2015
Zaxxon Didn't the reveal in 2012 specifically show 'all this space' with both rows flat? If so, doesn't this contradict Elon's claim that the production model will always be better than the concept?
I was hoping this particular seat option was just a sig thing, but it sounds like that is not the case.�
Sep 9, 2015
drinkerofkoolaid This picture was posted last year. A lot could have changed since then.�
Sep 9, 2015
anticitizen13.7 The slides for the Model X concept set the expectation. This is why I think there might be trouble.
Yes, this would definitely contradict Elon's statement that the production model would be better than the concept. It also goes against the near universal expectation that Model X would have a folding second row, or some kind of equivalent way of making a large cargo area just like the vast majority of mid-size CUV/SUVs.
If people reserved with the expectation that they could have a large and useful cargo area, and that expectation isn't met, this could be a disaster.
While there is the possibility that Tesla has some more tricks up its sleeve, there is no indication from either the screen shots of the Configuration website or statements from Reservation holders to the contrary.
People trading for the short term need to be aware of this risk. If the X doesn't live up to expectations (in reservations turned into sales, as well as press critical acclaim) after a 2 year delay, TSLA will likely tank until a solution can be engineered and implemented.�
Sep 9, 2015
Chickenlittle Uh oh did you miss your entry point? Looking to lower it? Why not wait for the car to appear before you complain about it�
Sep 9, 2015
sub AlMc was responding to me in that thread, I Just can't fathom Tesla not having a fold flat option. I'll gladly eat my words if I'm wrong. I'm one to worry about things AFTER they happen rather than spending all my time worrying about things that COULD happen. life is much more enjoyable that way. I would advise not to trade with this attitude however! :tongue:�
Sep 9, 2015
anticitizen13.7 No. I bought the vast majority of my shares in 2012, and the remainder in early 2013. I currently have no plans to buy or sell any shares in TSLA anytime soon.
I participate in the short term thread because it is often a good source of news about Tesla Motors. However, many people in the investor sub-forum do not often visit other areas of the forum, and may not be aware of what is actually going on with the product.
Should traders be kept in ignorance of a potential short-term problem?
If this were just idle speculation on Yahoo! or some other crummy news site, I wouldn't give it any credibility.
However, this information is from people on this forum, some who are actual reservation holders. So no, there is little point in waiting to see actual product.
If Tesla Motors wants to clear the air, they can easily do so by clarifying the specification for the second row rear bench. Frankly, the lack of communication for the company is a problem that is getting worse, and people who have significant deposits and are contemplating a $130,000 purchase should be getting better and more complete information. This is BS, and I would say it to Elon's face.�
Sep 9, 2015
hershey101 You should write him a detailed email regarding this. I did so when they ****ed up my order and he took action. To be fair though, this was a couple of years ago when the company was a lot smaller (I'm vin#~7100)�
Sep 9, 2015
Krugerrand Do we have to use the word tank? I've seen people bandy that around on 1-10% drops, none of which ever constituted or correctly described the stock 'tanking'. Can we put a percentage point or dollar figure on what you feel the market would penalize TSLA in regard to this particular subject matter rather than use hyperbole type adjectives. Unless, of course, you actually think the bottom is going to drop out of TSLA - as in a 50%+ drop - because a row of seats won't currently fold flat.�
Sep 9, 2015
anticitizen13.7 Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2015
The word "tank" is imprecise, but short term predictions are not easily made in exact terms.
Trading entities, whether Human or AI, can be fickle. There's no way to know exactly what will happen, but I believe that negative news on Model X will place more than usual downward pressure on TSLA.
If the seats not folding flat hurts the conversion of reservations to paid orders, it will hurt the stock price. I don't think it helps to ignore or downplay this risk. Design and engineering choices have consequences.�
Sep 9, 2015
Krugerrand Yes, of course it's imprecise, but it's also 'over the top' indicating a VERY HIGH level of bad.
I'm not suggesting anyone ignore or downplay the risk. I'm asking you to use dialogue that isn't of the 'sky is falling kind'. We get that enough around here without adding to the pile. I'm not asking you to predict market reaction to the penny. I'm asking you do put a better defined context to it based on your years of experience following TSLA. This might include finding relevant information on the percentage of SUV owners that fold down those seats regularly vs those that don't. It might include some logical and reasonable dialogue that'll come out via the likes of Motor Trend, Car & Driver etc... Unless of course you really feel this a situation of do (make those seats fold) or die for Tesla and thusly TSLA. Then by all means use the word tank. I gather, though, that you don't think this since you just also posted you aren't planning on selling your shares any time soon.�
Sep 9, 2015
eloder
I think the media and most owners will react far more positively to the fact that the MX speeds are vastly faster than first expected. The MX is faster than the fastest Model S's when it was unveiled. The MX is faster than many high-end sports cars.
Storage space is something you can get out of any old SUV/CUV on the market, 0-60 at McLaren speeds is not. Plus it's only a very specific kind of storage--very long objects. Third row folding only plus frunk will still put MX cargo room way beyond that of any other SUV/CUV on the market, overall.
This is assuming of course that the seats do not fold flat. I think what's more likely is that the seats don't fold flat (when optioned for rear executive a la Signature series), but that the second row seats fold "flat enough" that it's still useful for storage. I've been in a number of cars that can fold rear seats at a 20 degree incline and it still works for most purposes just fine.�
Sep 9, 2015
anticitizen13.7 Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2015
I'm glad my point is clear then, because an unfavorable level of sales and critical acclaim WOULD BE a very high level of bad in the short term (months to a year).
Model X is 2 years late, and expectations are sky high, both in terms of product functionality and financial benefit to the company. Any stumble now is going to affect the timetable for free cash flow, and call into question the company's ability to make good design choices. Any engineering remedy would take time.
This is misunderstanding what I am saying. Tesla can survive screwing up the seat design. It won't kill the company, but it will hurt the stock price, possibly significantly, in the near term if the seat design results in lower than expected but rates.
"Regularly" folding down the seats is not a good metric. It's like range. Model S 85 has 265 miles EPA range� NOBODY asks how regularly one would use all of this. It's about having the capability when one needs it, and not being inconvenienced like a LEAF driver. For a 130k vehicle, there shouldn't be much if any compromise in ANY aspect.
What s the big deal about the word tank anyways? TSLA has tanked plenty of times (F**re scares, the plunge this March, which was off nearly 100 points from ATH). Who cares? This is a volatile stock and I knew that buying in. I expect wild swings.�
Sep 9, 2015
TSLAopt I wouldn't panic...I trust Elon and his word when he says there is something special about these 2nd row seats and that some of the features won't be shown until the first cars are delivered, which we now know will be Sept 29th.
End of discussion...anything else is just speculation...even if the Tesla reps say the seats don't fold down, i trust there is some other special feature about them...maybe they turn around to make space, or rotate and fold up somehow wit the push of a button, or can be pulled out easily, or can hover on air...who knows? I just know there will be something special about them that I'm excited to wait and learn about come Sept 29th. Guessing does nothing other than project our fears or fantasies.�
Sep 9, 2015
anticitizen13.7 It's pretty lousy to ask people to configure and not disclose an important feature� not to mention that it could possibly result in a needlessly lost sale. If reservation holders have been told "no folding" and nothing else, the assumption from most people, rightly or wrongly, is that there's no alternative method of creating a big cargo area. Why take that chance? It's not like Honda is going to be able to copy the idea in 3 weeks.
I'm a big proponent of Tesla, but this company often does idiotic things and should be called out on them.�
Sep 9, 2015
AlMc You are absolutely correct that guessing does nothing about advancing our knowledge about the X. Problem: You can't make an informed decision about configuring your vehicle without having all the facts. AFAIK the Sigs are under no NDA and several have been very good about sharing the details they know. Many people may trust Elon implicitly and want to be surprised. When my number comes up I just hope that the reveal happens before I have to configure/confirm because plunking down 130K and trusting in Elon is not what I had in mind when I made my deposit long ago.
I know this really is a 'first world' problem and I am lucky to be in a position to even contemplate spending this type of money on a vehicle but TM has had a history of not being forthcoming/informative with their customer's questions.�
Sep 9, 2015
TSLAopt If a signature holders doesn't want to be surprised on the chance they won't be happy with the surprise then can't they just defer their order and configuration in a later batch until after the Sept 29th reveal? I'm sure that is an option that wouldn't necessarily put them to the very end of the line, but perhaps I'm wrong.�
Sep 9, 2015
Bgarret Wow....this went down the rabbit hole fast. So, to be clear, the 2nd row seats on a yet to be produced CUV may or may not fold down and that may or may not cause widespread cancellations (or new orders) because people won't be able to fit their 50in. TV (that I wouldn't buy anyway, as I don't have any connectivity) to cart it back from Best Buy...or Cicuit City...or BetaMax.
More people will not by the Model X because it has an all electric drive train than will not buy it because the 2nd row may or may not fold down. Doesn't mean we should add an ICE. It goes beyond 1st world problems - myriad of decisions had to be made for each option - towing, driver assist, display, connectivity, charging, cup holders ..ad infinitum. I find it difficult to hang a potential major stock correction on seats and equate it to firxs or delivery misses.
Lets be done.�
Sep 9, 2015
Krugerrand Ask the periodic bears that show up in this thread and pronounce such things only to get their heads bitten off.
None of those episodes are what I'd ever define as 'tanked'. But now that I know what your definition is, I can put your view and terminology into context that I can understand: It's TSLA as usual going forward.
- - - Updated - - -
Stop making it sound as if people are being forced to configure without knowing details. The option to defer until a person has all the information they require and/or a test drive is very real. So there's nothing lousy in this regard going on. As well, it's been WIDELY and PUBLICALLY known for quite some time that Model X would not be revealed until first delivers, giving early Sig holders plenty of time to decide how they'll handle the situation if time to confirm comes up before the reveal.
On the topic of the seats and how it may affect TSLA: if they don't fold then that is going to be a deal breaker for some reservationists. Logically and reasonably that lack of functionality to create full cargo space is going to be mentioned in media reviews as a negative on the vehicle even if that row of seats serve secondarily as an aquarium and barbecue.
- - - Updated - - -
And as of last year during one of the ERs they very specifically said they would be holding their cards close to their chests from then on and they have kept to that.�
Sep 9, 2015
eloder Quick side note, there's nothing of Model X related news with the Musk's appearance on Colbert. Mostly talk about SpaceX with just a little brief talk about the Model S automated charging arm and video.�
Sep 9, 2015
AlMc We are looking at this through different frames of reference for sure. My definition of 'holding cards close to their chests' does not include poor communication with their customers over simple questions about the products they are trying to sell. If they were truly trying to hold those cards close, IMO (yep opinion), the design studio should have opened AFTER the reveal on Sept 29th. If you decide to open up the design studio and start asking people to configure/confirm their vehicles you better be prepared to answer questions, in detail, about the product and potential options or lack thereof.�
Sep 9, 2015
sub Maybe the issue is the wrong question has been asked to Tesla. Someone needs to ask if 2nd row seats are movable in some way to allow for added cargo space. If this is not done via "folding" then Tesla hasn't done anything except answer the question that was asked (folding seats). I'm not saying this is ok for them to be this coy however.
I do understand the issue for those that need to make a decision based on their reservation number. If tesla answered the more vague question I've posed then maybe that would satisfy everyone. I don't have a horse in this race yet, and I do frequently fold the 2nd row seats in my Land cruiser to allow for added space for hauling cargo, but honestly this is so low on my list of priorities it would get nothing more than a shoulder shrug. Opinions vary on this obviously.
I really hope Tesla has a solution that makes everyone more than happy. I appreciate those of you willing and able
to shell out the money for these vehicles to help push this company forward. However, I feel there would be little
to zero effect on tsla regardless of 2nd row seat. I've never seen an analyst put a dollar value on that
option either.
�
Sep 9, 2015
Yggdrasill I decided to reduce my TSLA holdings somewhat due to Foldgate. I'm no longer geared, at least.
I think Foldgate has the potential to mess up many positive reviews, where they all add caveats at the end, like "This could have been a great car, but for some very strange reason, Tesla decided against folding seats, thus preventing the transport of large objects. We feel this compromses the utility of the car." Additionally, I think Foldgate will cause something like 25+% cancellations.
This may not materialize, but I just think caution makes sense.�
Sep 10, 2015
drinkerofkoolaid You people are crazy. Rumors based on nothing are causing you to sell?�
Sep 10, 2015
Yggdrasill The seats in the signature version do not fold. This info comes from multiple signature buyers as well as the design studio. The question is if the seats in the general production version fold, and as more information is becoming available, they seem to not fold. I'll be quick to buy if Tesla comes with good information, but until then I want to keep some options open.
Of course, the seats don't matter in the long term. But this is the short term thread.�
Sep 10, 2015
Bet TSLA You have to realize that many such people bought due to rumors based on nothing. So they sell the same way.�
Sep 10, 2015
Yggdrasill I expected Tesla to make the Model X a significant step up from the Model S. As more and more information becomes available, it seems added features aren't such a big step up from the Model S, and with regard to carrying capacity, even a step down. That is cause for correcting the exposure to TSLA.�
Sep 10, 2015
mrdoubleb With all do respect, I think the whole seat folding and towing thing is being blown way out of proportion. I mean foldgate? Really? Why don`t you start speculating the end of Tesla Motors because you can`t use a 100k+ car as a cargo van and can`t tow a house with it. I think some people may have thought the X is going to be a pick up truck.
Don`t get me wrong, some people may be cancelling, but the 25% floated in one of these threads is ridiculous. With the trunk and the frunk and foldable 3rd row, plus - based on the pictures I saw - movable 2nd row, there should be plenty of room for most users who thought they would be buying a 100k+ luxury SUV.
I just don`t see TSLA being impacted by this at all.�
Sep 10, 2015
Johan -1. Unlikely this will impact TSLA. 25% cancellations due to possibly only forward moving, or partly folding 2 row seats. No way.
+1�
Sep 10, 2015
Theshadows I believe it will have an impact. I fold the seats in our S down all the time to haul things.
Without the option to fold the second seats how is one supposed to haul skis for a weekend ski trip? I don't have super fancy skis and there is no way I am putting them on a roof rack on our S to haul them. I fold down the split seat in our car.
IMO without the folding or removable seats and the larger towing capacity how can it be a Sport UTILITY Vehicle?
If I can't haul skis inside, pick up a couple of 2x4's for a weekend project or haul a new fridge home because mine died and the appliance store can't deliver it for a week, or pull my boat or camper to the lake then this is not a SUV. It's an oversized sedan.
I don't see a 25% cancelation rate but I do see an impact to the share price of it does not have these features. I also do not see how consumer reports can give it a 100 if it's missing those features.
Elon is building "perfect" cars. Missing these features is either an oversight or a compromise the engineers had to make. Kinda like missing rear cup holders and coat hooks.
These items will impact the short and medium term price.�
Sep 10, 2015
AlMc I have no idea how much any *rumored* or actual shortcomings the X will have on TSLA. I do know that an SUV/CUV generally provides 'utility' above and beyond most sedans built on the same platform. Time will tell whether that applies to the S/X platform.�
Sep 10, 2015
jhm Can we please have a separate thread for foldgate. This is ridiculous and only relevant to the stock price in its ridiculousness. At least, those who are concerned about this should follow relevant Model X threads and make comments there. There is a lot of functionality being discussed there with the benefit of pictures. It was known on September 1 that the seats do not fold, but it is also true that the seats move in ways we will not fully understand until the reveal. If the market was really freaking out over this, it would have done so already. There is no need to spaz out over week old information.�
Sep 10, 2015
Papafox Remember that the second row of seats are supposed to do something so interesting that their functioning is being kept out of sight until Sept 29. Perhaps one of the options of this something interesting is to move in such a way to create space for cargo. We'll find out in just over 3 weeks.�
Sep 10, 2015
Drax7 The model X is not an f 150, f 250 , f 350 utility truck, and the stock price in no
way will discount that as a negative, in my very not humble opinion.
Those that believe otherwise are entitled to believe whatever they please�
Sep 10, 2015
doggusfluffy I think there is a point where teasing the details is a positive force which generates interest through the curiosity factor. For reasons I don't understand, Tesla has seemingly shot well past that point now and instead leaving even more questions and uncertainty which are impacting actual and potential customers alike. It's seemingly doing more harm than good by not simply showing how the features enhance the car you're also trying to sell. The seating, towing and overall utility with the radically different falcon wing doors are not on the same level as what does the new front grill look like, is there a vegan interior option or will it have infotainment built-in. It appears to be shooting yourself in the foot during your own protracted product launch. Just my $.02.�
Sep 10, 2015
ggr Maybe the seat back can move forward so that the seats face the rear? That would give almost the same space as folding the backs down. Also the benefits of "club seating"... the five people in back can have a party while the Autopilot is on, like in the Ron Burgundy movie.
And, simply because I don't know the answer, do CUVs like the Audi Q7 (that is, the competition) have folding 2nd rows? I assume there's a third row at least.�
Sep 10, 2015
austinEV I don't like it either, but it is really only a negative to investors. They still have no interest in creating sales for the X that they cannot deliver for 6 or more months. Incremental sales and interest are a net negative right now since they would osborne S sales.�
Sep 10, 2015
uselesslogin That is the problem, they aren't trying to sell the car. They may only ship 2,000 in Q4. We'll see. Maybe there aren't that many people who would buy a Model S instead of reserving and X but it still, at least to Tesla, may make more logical sense to not do anything to encourage Model X sales when someone tired of waiting might decide to buy a Model S instead.�
Sep 10, 2015
Yonki Exactly. I was trying to explain what's going on with the MX release to my wife and as I was talking about it I realized the release has gone from exciting to confusing and sort of miserable. Maybe it's just because I'm reading too much TMC - what do we think the MX launch looks like to the outside world?�
Sep 10, 2015
uselesslogin To the outside world? To the outside world there hasn't been an MX launch yet. It is still "coming."�
Sep 10, 2015
austinEV To the outside world there is no X launch. It doesn't look like anything. We TMC people are working ourselves up by examining spy photos and then getting mad about what the spy photos say. I think it is fine a fun sport, but getting mad about it is crossing a line. Tesla Motors doesn't owe us an explanation about their unreleased secret products! </soapbox>
Uelesslogin and I are synchronized posting...�
Sep 10, 2015
Papafox Grr, that was my thought too. Another variation would have the outside seats facing inward and the middle seat moved all the way forward and facing aft.�
Sep 10, 2015
MitchJi I agree, but I enjoyed having a good laugh.�
Sep 10, 2015
uselesslogin :smile:�
Sep 10, 2015
doggusfluffy Sorry, I meant configure a signature reservation rather than 'sell'. My point wasn't in the technical details, only they are selling the car to the public through the information they release. Having this recent speculation about what it can't do, how it won't work for me and implanting those doubts as first impressions are not positive reactions when seemingly you could show those features. Even if some percentage do become X cancellations they might still become Model S purchasers...once they can make an informed decision comparing the two.
I know I've been hanging out and reading too much in the X forums. :smile:�
Sep 10, 2015
RubberToe I think many short term traders don't give enough credit to the extent that psychology can drive short term price movements. Just remember back to late 2012... TSLA was selling for $20 per share, hadn't moved significantly above or below that level for years. Even when Motor Trend made it the "Car of the Year", stock was still flat. The reason is that the Fisker debacle and the GM EV debacle cemented in peoples minds that an EV couldn't possibly be successful. Mind you, this mind set even persisted after the car of the year award. CAR OF THE YEAR AWARD!
Tesla now is in the news every day, no matter what little thing happens. Media coverage is over the top. Tesla is like Donald Trump, nobody is paying attention to anyone else, even if they are saying/doing the same thing. Bad news sells, good news doesn't. Turn on any "news" channel and see what is presented as news. CNN now only shows "breaking news" for anything related to homicides or other spectacular events that have no impact to the real world. Why? Because people eat it up.
My band leader back in high school had an interesting take on our annual pilgrimage to the state competition. Expectations for our school were very high, because we always got the top possible award. It wasn't good enough for our band to just be really excellent. He said the judges paid special attention to us versus other schools because we had always done so well. When other bands played and many different instruments were hitting bad notes, as long as the overall performance was still good, they did pretty well. But, when our band played, everyone was so good, that when a single bad note was hit by anyone, it stood out like a sore thumb. That is what the judges were listening for, because expectations for us were so high. During practice, we would literally stop playing and just look dumbfounded at the person who did it when it happened.
So how does this all relate to Tesla/TSLA
So while it may be the case that a non-foldable second row seat will have "absolutely zero impact" on the long term success of the company, as a short term trader, you have to ask yourself what effect this will have WRT media reaction, public reaction, all the momentum traders, and the HFT algorithms that will start making decisions on any bad news and exacerbate any drop due to any X related bad news, second row seats related or anything else less than 100% perfection.
My $0.02
RT�
Sep 10, 2015
Citizen-T Again this board is falling into the trap of thinking that product news (folding seats) is going to move the stock. How many D announcements do we have to go through before we learn that the stock makes sustained moves on financial news---not product news?�
Sep 10, 2015
austinEV True, and as astonishing as this may SEEM, the majority of tesla car buyers are not on these boards scrutinizing spy photos. There is this huge population of people who go about their lives and just buy and use excellent Tesla products. Foldgate and secondrowcupholdergate are not really impacting sales. TM doesn't have to beat an idealized car, they have to beat the competition. We just have to trust that there are compensating features that are neat.�
Sep 10, 2015
Yonki That may be Tesla's plan, but my only personal "outside world" datapoint is a friend who knows I'm into Tesla texting me on September 3rd: "Am I missing something...or is the Model X CRAZILY expensive??"
I know Tesla isn't worried about the short term SP (to their credit), but I wish they'd put a little more thought into this launch so it wasn't so easy for it to be misunderstood by advocates AND haters.�
Sep 10, 2015
sub Do people really think the tesla engineers stared at the model X for years, a Utility vehicle, and the thought of cargo space never crossed their mind? Raise your hand if you would design a product, especially a car, without analyzing all of your competition? Why would they waste their time doing this, it's only billions of dollars on the line right? Please people. I can't believe this discussion has escalated like this. I'm going to stick with my belief that Tesla isn't run by a bunch of idiots until proven otherwise.�
Sep 10, 2015
schonelucht The stock reacted to the fires and that most certainly was product 'news'... However, I agree : stock price is not going to react to folding seats yes/no. However there is a secondary effect we shouldn't ignore. If at launch the model X demonstrates a best-in-class autopilot making reservations shoot up to double/triple numbers we see today, we will most certainly see a big move upwards. Likewise if the X disappoints for product reasons (due to the seats, range or whatever) and the press reports cancellations rates over 50%, I would expect the stock to go downwards.�
Sep 10, 2015
JRP3 My thoughts, whatever the seats do it won't impact the stock much either way, but I'm leaning towards the 180 swivel theory.�
Sep 10, 2015
FluxCap The release of the X will not move the share price up significantly. Investors care about financial performance of the company and future outlook to price the shares. The Model X release is a known, planned event and thus baked into the current share price. If it does not happen in the near future for some reason or happens with significant problems, however, then that would be unexpected and could have an effect on the share price.
What this guy said.�
Sep 10, 2015
sub I don't think you can compare the fires to a seat, fires put the scare of "recall" into everyone's mind which is a tad bit more significant than what a seat does or does not do.�
Sep 10, 2015
doggusfluffy It's just about changing the subject. They don't even argue the car scored as well as CR says. It's very similar to the Merchants of Doubt playbook...and effective sadly.�
Sep 10, 2015
hobbes Can you link to the posts please? I was remembering someone was told by a Tesla service center employee they don�t fold, but I don�t remember anyone actually getting hands on one. But I might have lost track...�
Sep 10, 2015
Twiddler Again, why is everyone so stuck on the term "FOLD"? If they instead pivot out of the way, which would explain why the seat's pillars are shaped the unique way that they are (design and prototype being identical) as in this figure Will the second row seats fold flat? If so, how? - Page 34, then that would be just as good of a solution.
I think there is error in interpreting "they don't fold" as "they are fixed in place."�
Sep 10, 2015
aesculus At least one individual asked Tesla how they moved and the only directions were forward and backwards. No other movement. They confirmed this on two calls backed up with a supervisor.�
Sep 10, 2015
Twiddler But that is my point exactly. If the mechanism to move the seat out of the way is by pivot arms at the floor and seat base, is that not "forward?" Again, forward does not equal fixed.
View attachment seats.bmp�
Sep 10, 2015
mmd I know it sounds crazy. But could it be that the second row seats can be removed completely from the car with ease? That should create enough cargo room for the rare occasions one needs that space.�
Sep 10, 2015
Krugerrand I've said this before, but it obviously needs repeating: *this* situation is NOT an example of poor communication on the part of Tesla. Tesla IS communicating just fine. They are communicating that such and such will not be revealed or answered until the first deliveries to Founders. Some people simply do not like that answer from Tesla. That's different than poor communication.
Gosh, how could they open the design studio after Sept 29th with all the people here bellyaching about how the design studio wasn't open yet? I'm mean seriously. Rock meet hard place.
The opening of the design studio beforehand allowed those Sig holders who do NOT have to know everything and don't have to test drive to go ahead and configure. Everyone else will get the information they need on Sept 30th or later on in the year after a test drive.�
Sep 10, 2015
Ocelot I could not care less if the seats fold.
With that said I am worried about short/term stock price and reveal of the model X. It makes no sense to me whatsoever to open the design studio when they did, or have people sign non-disclosures or whatever the case may be. The car is 2 YEARS late. Why not wait an extra month to do the unveil and open the design studio? Is it because Elon said the studio will be open by the end of the month (i cannot remember where he said it , but do remember him saying it)? did they not want the stock price to go down so hurried out the design studio without themselves knowing some of the 'answers' yet? I really cannot imagine the reasoning for not giving all the answers and details at the unveiling...even if that came another month late , which at this point seems like a trivial amount of time. So I am going with there a hiccups, and major ones, which have surfaced.
As for Tesla's communication being good? I would beg to differ. I have got ...maybe one email from them regarding the model X over the three plus years they have held my deposit. Maybe a semi-annual "appreciate your patience and support" email , which someone could compose and send out in what, an hour? would go a long way.�
Sep 10, 2015
doggusfluffy Well if they put themselves between a rock and a hard place it was Elon's own words and timeline estimates that put him there in the first place. Missing deadlines should have consequences. I'm tired of apologizing and feeling like a fool for ever taking his estimates as being remotely accurate.�
Sep 10, 2015
Krugerrand Let me give you another perspective so you might be able to understand that not everyone thinks as you do. Some people, such as yourself, appreciate periodic updates even if those updates contain zero information. Hi, nothing new to report, blah, blah blah, bye.
But there is another group of people (like engineering types, but not exclusively) who simply wouldn't think there was a need to tell people - even periodically - that there's nothing new to tell them. It just doesn't register on their radar to do something that appears to have no value from where they are sitting.
This is not to suggest that you're pov isn't valid, this is just to make you aware that not everyone thinks the same way on this front. We've known that there's been some revolving door stuff going on in the communications area with Tesla for a couple of years now. We can make some educated guesses as to why this has been an issue from the start and continues to be, and we need look no further than the top of the food chain and consider what kind of person he is, what he believes to have significant value and what does not, his managing style and so on.
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I believe he's publically acknowledged is over zealous timelines. It's a personal fault and he's aware of it. But like all of us, some habits die hard. I can live with it because he has so much else to offer that I view it as an annoyance more than anything. I've learned to recalibrate timelines, as have many others here.
There have been consequences of missed deadlines and will continue to be, but in the scheme of things, looking to where the puck is going to be rather than where it currently is - there are bigger fish to fry than missed deadlines. And you shouldn't apologize for someone else's mistake/s, that's not your responsibility. :wink:�
Sep 10, 2015
doggusfluffy I'm not disagreeing with anything you said. I also don't want them to rush a bad product to market...like anyone on this board. I'm suggesting that the tone of this launch reads a bit arrogant...is the way it's starting to appear. Sort of like here I'm turning in my homework late. Trust me, it's great. You don't need to see it...but it's really great. Which would play better in other circumstances. I can't afford an X myself, but I can understand the frustration of people who are trying to decide on one. It seems more like Tesla is trying to win the best kept secret award instead of selling better cars.�
Sep 10, 2015
anticitizen13.7 Again, it's not just the product news itself -- it's the impact the news ultimately has on turning reservations into paid orders. That has all kinds of consequences for earnings, meeting guidance, and cash flow, which ARE financial news.�
Sep 10, 2015
drinkerofkoolaid This makes a lot more sense than the baseless assumption that Tesla overlooked something important for many people.
Anticitizen is harping on this baseless assumption for no reason. We'll find out all the information in less than 2 weeks. I'd strongly urge waiting until then before drawing any conclusions.
This is worse than when bloggers were trying to find reasons why people wouldn't buy the next iPhone.�
Sep 10, 2015
anticitizen13.7 Again, this is based on information provided by a reservation holder who asked specific questions to the North American sales team (reference: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/52842-Will-the-second-row-seats-fold-flat-If-so-how/page26). I acknowledge the possibility that the information provided by NASales could be incorrect or incomplete.
I do not advise making any share transactions now based on any of this. I do advise people to be wary if (1) they have short term positions and (2) the seat rumor turns out to be true.
Because: 16GB. Display too small. Display too large. Ugly antennae lines on the back. iOS looks like Jony Ive tripped on LSD. Sam Sung AMOLED displays look nicer. Apps refreshing too often because of 1GB of RAM :cursing:. Space Gray is not dark enough. The bezels are too thick. Phone too thin. PPI too low. Camera lens sticks out. Phone bends. Power button on opposite side of volume buttons. Battery life on 4.7" model didn't improve.
I know all the reasons. They can be found on Mac Rumors forum. Link: http://forums.macrumors.com/forums/iphone.99/
:biggrin:�
Sep 10, 2015
Papafox Because of all the concerns shown in this forum today, I am optimistic about a positive share price response to the Model X reveal. Today's comments about the 2nd row of seats confirms that many TMC Investor Thread members and the general investor world as well harbor concerns about the Model X reveal being a success. In other words, a successful reveal of Model X is not already priced in. I would be terribly surprised if Tesla has not made provisions for hauling large items. With an innovative row of seats, there's more than one way to accommodate large items other than the folding of the seats. The seats themselves can get out of the way. I have confidence that Tesla will offer a solution to the concerns expressed, and I strongly suspect that the stock will respond nicely when investors realize that the Model X looks amazingly good compared to the competition.�
Sep 10, 2015
anticitizen13.7 I agree, and also add that it's not just the reveal that's not priced it. The production ramp up isn't priced in either.
Model X has been delayed so long that there's real skepticism about Tesla's ability to deliver. 2 years is a long time in tech land. If Tesla does deliver in quantity and it's great, there will likely be substantial upside.�
Sep 10, 2015
mmd I just threw the idea (of removable 2nd row seats) in there, to see what more knowledgeable people think. That was just a speculation, to be sure. The fact that the 2nd row seats cannot fold flat seems verified by Tesla sales.
I agree with most here, that Tesla should reveal the full specs so people can check those out before confirming their orders and plunking down over $100K. It doesn't seem reasonable to expect the customers to confirm without these vital information. May be, Tesla is not quite ready yet for the X launch.�
Sep 10, 2015
JohnSnowNW Well, as an MX reservation holder...I don't give a shiat about the 2nd row folding flat. Could be in the minority...*shrugs*�
Sep 10, 2015
AlMc Again. Different frames of reference. I don't agree with your opinion and you don't agree with mine. OK.�
Sep 10, 2015
Krugerrand One more time...nobody is confirming their Model X order who does not want to. Sig reservationists who do not need more or all the information (for whatever reasons) are being given the opportunity to confirm (in order), all other Sig reservationists (in order) have the option to defer. Is there some other way I need to say that for people to comprehend?
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No, it's not really okay for someone to think an answer being given that they don't like is somehow the definition poor communication.
Poor communication is when the message is garbled or ambiguous. Definitely not the case here. Poor communication is when the receiver of the information isn't listening, is judgmental or filters the message through their pov. Poor communication is when either party is overly emotional. Poor communication is when the sender of the information attacks the receiver.�
Sep 10, 2015
AlMc you win�
Sep 10, 2015
Krugerrand Sweet. When can I expect my prize in the mail?�
Sep 10, 2015
AlMc we have a winner�
Sep 10, 2015
Krugerrand Yep, I got that the first time. Now I'm needing to know when the pony is coming.�
Sep 10, 2015
AlMc can't be happy just knowing you won? Over and out. If you post you may also have the last word. Good by me.�
Sep 10, 2015
Krugerrand But the pony needs hay and bedding and a saddle and a bridle and a blankie. Do I buy pink or blue accessories? What size cart should I get? Does it need shoes? Think of the pony as a Sig Model X. :biggrin:�
Sep 10, 2015
Ocelot Thanks krugerrand...now I know not everyone thinks like me:wink: I get what you are saying ...but respectfully disagree.�
Sep 10, 2015
Yggdrasill If the seats form a flat floor, in spite of what sales people have been saying, and in spite of information given at the Model X launch as well as subseuent updates, that's poor communication. So, I wouldn't rule it out at this point.
If the seats don't form a flat floor, Tesla has been communicating this to those who it matters to, so there's no poor communication. But on the other hand, Tesla will have failed to deliver a car with the expected utility.
I don't yet know in which way Tesla has dropped the ball, but we should know at the end of the month, or shortly thereafter.�
Sep 10, 2015
Krugerrand I'm not sure what you're disagreeing about. I thought I wrote my response to your communication concern is a pretty decent sitting on the fence kind of a way, taking neither side of the issue. I acknowledged your pov as valid, just explained that what is obvious to you in terms of communication may not be on someone else's radar. That's a fact of life and how different people think differently. Or do you believe those at Tesla responsible for communication are fully aware of how each customer prefers to be communicated with? Or are purposely trying to upset people? Or that Elon isn't in fact where communication trends start?
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Yes, that's would be a form of poor communication. That (folding seats specifically) wasn't what was being talked about as poor communication.
That's a debatable point, in that each person who reserved has a different view of what they are expecting in terms of utility. There are some who were expecting the seats to fold flat and need those seats to fold flat to use the vehicle as they intend to, and then there are some who outright don't care what the seats do, and still some others who are fine with whatever the seats may or may not do as long as there's still a certain amount of cargo space behind those seats, and some others who fall in between those categories and so on.�
Sep 10, 2015
Yggdrasill True, but you need to draw a line between significant and insignificant changes. I would say that if a change is big enough to get many people to cancel their reservations, it's significant.
It's like if Tesla decided to make the Model X a plug-in hybrid instead, with 30 miles electric range. Some people wouldn't care, many people would be outraged, and many would be somewhere in between. Even so, I would consider this a significant change, and I would think Tesla had failed to deliver the expected vehicle. In my view, non-folding seats is a significant change.�
Sep 11, 2015
RobStark An all-electric powertrain and the transition to sustainable transportation is Tesla's raison d'�tre. Folding seats are not. Neither are heated ventilated cooled seats. Or any freaking seat.
A PHEV with 30 miles AER would have 95% plus reservation holders cancelling.
A few people are all about the internet of things and trendy brands but most Tesla owners and reservation holders are not.
And a few Volvo XC90 and Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV intenders would switch.
Most would not because Tesla would have no track record with ICE powertrains.�
Sep 11, 2015
Yggdrasill What percentage of reservation holders would need to cancel based on a design change before you would say that Tesla failed to deliver what was expected?�
Sep 11, 2015
JRP3 Actually all that was said is the seats don't fold flat. That does not mean they don't move out of the way in some other manner to provide similar useful space. It's an important distinction.�
Sep 11, 2015
Yggdrasill "Spoke to a Tesla rep yesterday. He confirmed that the 2nd row does not fold, rotate or transform in any way to make a flag cargo space. The 3rd row seats however do fold flat." First Production Cars Delivered Sep 29 at Factory per Elon Tweet - Page 4
"I spoke with the Tesla inside sales folks today about my X order and they also me that the second row seats do not fold flat or fold in any way or twist or move in any fashion to become flat." Will the second row seats fold flat? If so, how? - Page 39
The above is a pretty strong indication that minimally, the Signature 2nd row seats do not form a flat floor. The alternative is that vandacca and MrBoylan or Tesla staff were mistaken or lying.
"I know there is/was some speculation that the Production models may give you another option for the second row seats that might allow folding. Based on a lengthy conversation with the NASales team yesterday this is NOT the case. No folding second row seats..period Sig or Production." Will the second row seats fold flat? If so, how? - Page 25
The above is a pretty strong indication that just like the Signature 2nd row, the standard 2nd row does not form a flat floor. The alternative is that the standard seats are superior to the Signature seats, in that they too don't fold, but magically stow somehow. Or that AlMc or Tesla staff are mistaken or lying.�
Sep 11, 2015
JRP3 They don't have to fold to form a perfectly flat floor to still provide good utility. If they move mostly out of the way that would be plenty for most people. Frankly I think most people never do anything with the folding seats in most vehicles, but I do realize some want more utility.�
Sep 11, 2015
Yggdrasill "Most vehicles"? Maybe... Most utility vehicles (CUV/SUV/wagon)? Probably most people use the folding seats to some degree or other.
The seats will probably move a bit forward and then tilt forward to some degree. For some people that will be enough, but I doubt it's good enough for me. I will of course have to see the actual implementation.�
Sep 11, 2015
Krugerrand Okay, but we have no idea if the seat change is indeed significant enough to cause many people to cancel their reservation. (And what is many anyway?) A handful of people have indicated it's a deal breaker and a handful of people are speculating it's (the seat change) a big (or to use your word, significant) change. Personally, (and what I think personally is irrelevant because I'm not a premium SUV customer in this life time) my initial reaction was 'oh, no, they didn't!' and I expected way, way, way more backlash about it then what I've actually seen. I expected backlash far exceeding the AP and HP threads combined. But so far that hasn't happened even fractionally. So now I'm personally thinking it might very well end up not being that big of a deal for the majority.
Non-flat folding seats vs plug-in hybrid with 30 electric range miles is very lopsided and really not on the same planet in context, imo.�
Sep 11, 2015
austinEV I wanted to see like 3 more pages of Almc and Krugerrand discussing the pony. The meta is strong here.�
Sep 11, 2015
Krugerrand I think you're letting your personal experience cloud the larger real world. This is sounding a lot like the whole range argument - probably most people have a time or two in their lives to go 500 miles, therefore BEVs must have 500 mile range batteries, which ignores the reality that truly most people don't need that and for the odd occasion when they do, they have other options.
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I'm ready, willing and able, but I don't think AIMc wants to play. :frown:�
Sep 11, 2015
dalalsid Maybe this needs a poll about how often people fold their second row seats. I say I do it once a month or so for partial folding once a quarter or so for all folded. I'm fairly certain folding seat events far outnumber driving far events.�
Sep 11, 2015
Yggdrasill You won't see more backlash until more firm info is available. Right now it's a strong suspicion that the Model X will have inconvenient cargo solutions, nothing more.�
Sep 11, 2015
Yggdrasill I made a poll, so let's see then: How important is it for you that the 2nd row seats of the Model X are stowable?�
Sep 11, 2015
Yggdrasill Apparently, I may have been optimistic when I estimated 25% cancellation rate, if the seats don't fold or stow in some way. It makes complete sense, of course. Being in the premium/luxury segment does not exempt the car company from meeting the basic needs of the customer.
(The sample size is of course not huge, and there is probably some selection bias involved, as well as various other factors that skew the poll.)�
Sep 11, 2015
aesculus Not sure what you mean by being optimistic but at this time its over 60% that require the seats adapting, with almost 40% stating they must be flat.
I agree that the numbers are still small (~60) and all could change.�
Sep 11, 2015
Krugerrand We'll see, but I don't think so.�
Sep 11, 2015
eloder No other car will come close to matching MX cargo space used by real-world, average individuals (not talking about plywood haulers, or those who need two folded rows of seats for camping trips but only take one other passenger with them on the trip). No other car will have a cavernous frunk available.
Even if they don't fold flat in any configuration (highly doubtful standard seats won't, I can see why "rear executive" do not fold given how they differ in the Model S), there's just simply not enough people who haul plywood while also simultaneously not taking more than one passenger somewhere.
People are applying their own personal over-exaggerated needs of space, much like the countlessly empty pickup truck beds I see on a daily basis. Many people are thinking of the need to fold down seats on significantly smaller vehicles, or vehicles with only two seat rows and not three.
I simply see this as false outrage, and I don't think Tesla will be affected in the slightest. Even assuming there's no second row folding whatsoever, there are a ton of people who would love to have a performance car but right now are only limited to boring minivans and slow competitors. A big appeal of the Model S is that it is both a family sedan and a sports car on the weekends, and the same is now true of a Model X for bigger families. People will love it.
Not to echo earlier comments endlessly, but Tesla's specialty is incredible electric drivetrains and a car designed from the ground-up to be electric (enabling things like frunks). People buy Honda minivans for pure utility and folding seats. People buying a Tesla for any reason are going to have much different reasons for doing so, until we have an econo-model available.
And also to echo, any signature not certain about ordering sight unseen can defer, and then get a full and complete refund if not satisfied post-revealed. With a 27k and fast-growing waiting list, Tesla and TSLA will see zero realistic impact from "foldgate". Reviews aren't going to care about folding seats--when was the last time you even saw folding seats mentioned in any review, ever? They're going to care about the fact that it's a SUV that bests the McLaren on the drag strip to 60 mph.�
Sep 11, 2015
anticitizen13.7 This is not a good argument because the issue is not so much the cargo volume, but the type of cargo that can be accommodated. In the various threads on this issue, I have seen photos of people hauling IKEA furniture, sports equipment, and even disassembled small airplanes in their Model S w' rear seats down. The Frunk doesn't help with long items.
First of all, this isn't "false outrage", because it is a real concern for some customers here on this forum. Being dismissive of people who actually have reservations down (and may also already be Model S owners) doesn't make the issue go away.
It is a fair point that with 27k+ reservations, Tesla may still be able to sell all the Model X vehicles they can build, at least in the short term. If the sales hold up and the financials aren't impacted, there won't be any negative effect on TSLA. However, limiting the appeal of Model X may not be the best idea for sales in the long run.�
Sep 11, 2015
Robert.Boston Moderator's Note
Just a friendly reminder -- this is the Investors Forum. Please use the MX threads to join into the general conversation about how often people haul plywood.�
Sep 11, 2015
JohnSnowNW I believe there is a fable in this, though: "The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass"
You're not going to be able to build a vehicle that appeals to everyone, you have to pick and choose. It's pretty clear from the poll that it's a minority of people that require the 2nd row seat to fold flat. So, I'd say that if the 2nd row doesn't, Tesla has not made an error.�
Sep 11, 2015
anticitizen13.7 I'd say "no error" if the 2nd row can somehow get out of the way, regardless of flat or not. Many crossovers don't have a perfectly flat load area. However, no way for the 2nd row to move would be an error in my judgment.
Look at all of the poll results.
About 30% require flat folding
Another 31% require "stow in some manner" (not necessarily flat, but out of the way)
The problem is that the information that Tesla Sales has conveyed leaves it ambiguous as to whether the second row can move out of the way. We know it doesn't fold flat, assuming that NASales is correct. The question is does it move out of the way somehow?
Model X is supposed to be a better SUV/CUV than Model S is a sedan. I believe Elon said that himself. Hauling large, bulky, and sometimes long items is part of what defines an SUV or CUV in my observation. I know people who own small crossovers like a CR-V, and medium crossovers like a Pilot or MDX, and large SUVs like Expedition. Without exception, people use these cars to haul big stuff: furniture, grilles, televisions, and much more. Having the potential to carry big stuff is an essential function for many buyers.
People should keep in mind that there's a risk that if the product doesn't match customer needs, it could impact meeting guidance. If initial volume is low enough that there are enough buyers in the pipeline who don't care about the 2nd row, the impact may be nonexistant at first.�
Sep 11, 2015
MikeL I'd say the opposite. Big mistake.
We'll see, I'm not making assumptions about the design I've never seen, but IF . . . I'll be disappointed, a lot. Maybe I'm in some sizable minority, but I don't think it's a small one.�
Sep 11, 2015
JohnSnowNW That's true. In fairness I'm assuming that the 2nd row moves, or is removable. From the design studio images, if the seats don't move in some manner then I don't understand the ovular plastic base under each "pillar."�
Sep 11, 2015
Yggdrasill The seats probably minimally move forward until the base of the seat touches the front row, then tilts forward until the top of the seat back touches the front row. This means that probably, some of those who have voted that they require the seats to stow in some manner will be satisfied.
If we say half of that group would be satisfied, that's 43% of the people who have voted who would cancel. Counting only the ones who have actually voted, that's probably something like 3.9 million dollars in revenues and at least 215k USD in reservation payments that would walk out the door. If the 43% apply to the 27k reservations, that's 1 billion dollars in revenues and at least 58 million dollars in reservation payments.
I think 43% cancellation rate would definitely impact TSLA in the short term, even if Tesla could find new buyers and avoid becoming demand limited.�
Sep 12, 2015
callmesam Will Your Family Fit? | U.S. News Best Cars
Third Rows
Families of six or more have to shop carefully. There are only eight minivans on the market, and most three-row SUVs don�t have adult-size back seats. If you only need those extra seatbelts for occasional carpooling or passengers shorter than 5-feet, you have more wiggle room. Most reviewers say that minivans are your best bet if you frequently drive adults or teens, which may limit your choices further if you regularly carpool with coworkers or other grown-ups.�
Sep 12, 2015
sub I'm anxious for the Model X reveal so that these endless seat folding conversations will go away. I'll repeat myself, I have confidence that Tesla isn't run by a bunch of idiots until proven otherwise. Why would they create a utility vehicle and forget about the utility? Why would they create a utility vehicle that has less utility than their own sedan? Why would they show a photo and ask "what could you do with all this space?" then completely ignore that feature (the biggest reason to choose a CUV/SUV over a sedan)? None of that makes sense.
As for the poll, I think a lot of people will feign outrage or may be legitimately upset IF the 2nd row doesn't fold or stow out of the way. However, I prefer to give signature reservation holders more credit than to think they would walk away from buying a Tesla based on this one issue. I think once these people calm down they will remember what Tesla is all about and will continue to throw their financial support in the companies direction. I'm driving around a clown car right now (i3) because I want to get off of fossil fuels and I can't justify a Tesla yet due to the price and the low number of miles we drive as a family. I expect similar behavior from signature res holders. I believe there will be zero impact on the company short/long term based on a folding seat. I can't believe one person mentioned they sold stock over this issue. Get a grip.
I agree car reviews never mention seat configuration other than how many people can fit and how much leg room there is. However, we know that journalists read this forum so they will for sure pick up on the outrage and write about it. The good news is that the average person (specifically those not on TMC) will probably get nothing more than a chuckle out of the issue if they take notice at all.�
Sep 12, 2015
bonnie Many of us are already driving a Tesla, have evangelized on behalf of the company, and are long-term stockholders - please don't lecture us as to what our support level should be.�
Sep 12, 2015
sub
Not lecturing, simply stating my opinion on what I see happening.
I can see the headlines now "Tesla, once a great company on the path to changing the future until.....they omitted a 2nd row folding seat".
Yeah, probably not
I evangelize for the company (precisely what my post was doing by the way) and also a long term share holder as well.
No desire to pick a fight with a fellow Tesla supporter by the way. But really, do you honestly think that a sig res holder, the most evangelistic of Tesla believers is going to go pick up a gas guzzling, planet destroying SUV instead of a Model X because a 2nd row seat doesn't fold? If your answer is yes then I guess we will just have to disagree on this.�
Sep 12, 2015
bonnie Let's leave room for the fellow Tesla supporter who already uses an EV for 90%+ of their driving and also has a real need for the cargo space. Should they sell what they already have (in my case, a Jeep that I use occasionally) and go rent an ICE with adequate cargo space whenever needed? Why wouldn't I just leave that Jeep in the other side of my garage? You cannot dismiss those who actually had that flat space as shown as a requirement, just because it isn't important to you.
In any case, let's wait for the facts. But in the meantime, I acknowledge there are different user groups who have different needs. And I suspect Tesla will want people to buy a vehicle that they're happy with.�
Sep 12, 2015
Krugerrand If the vehicle can not be used for an intended and needed purpose, then it would be reasonable for said person to not purchase said vehicle regardless of anything else. It's not logical to think people will pay large sums of money for something they can't use in a manner they need, even if they are in love with the company that makes it.
We've seen people here be upset about much smaller sums of money being spent: a few grand for AP that hasn't been implemented yet, a few more grand spent to gain a fraction of a second more in 0-60 time that they aren't able to realize. Heck, we've got people upset because they paid 100k+ for a vehicle without door pockets, enough cupholders/cupholders placed in more convenient locations, vanity mirrors, grab straps and a closed compartment big enough to stow a suitcase of personal possessions.
So, yeah. Even the most evangelistic of Tesla believers might consider a gaz guzzling, yadda, yadda, yadda instead of the X, if that X doesn't meet their personal day to day requirements. Or, said evangelist might wait for Tesla to provide a different option down the road that better suits the evangelist's needs.
Am I the only one that really dislikes the word evangelist?! Every time I read that word I think of Jim and Tammy Faye Baker and I want to puke. (and go wash my face - vigorously)�
Sep 12, 2015
bonnie Don't forget the eyelash remover.�
Sep 12, 2015
aesculus +1
Been catching up on Orphan Black. Lot of that there too.:scared:�
Sep 12, 2015
kenliles I'm holding out for the second row seat that folds into a first row center console...�
Sep 12, 2015
bonnie I wish you much luck with that.
:tongue:�
Sep 12, 2015
Auzie I second this. Some entertaining read, pity the 'winner' is already settled.
Perhaps AlMc might be back in the fight if we declare a draw.�
Sep 12, 2015
Auzie Positive product announcements (D release) did not impact the sp because the 'perfect quality' was priced in TSLA. At the time of D release, the sales or ability to sell was more in focus than the product quality, the car was good enough without the improvement.
Also, it might be easier to move the stock down than up.
If there is some disappointment with the product release, I would not be surprised with a minor correction. The correction might be blown out of proportion if there is some other, more relevant bad news happening at the same time (poor sales or similar).
+1. My bet is that the engineers must make many compromises under a tight deadline.
As these unavoidable choices/compromises are made, the pool of unhappy customers can only grow from here. It is just not possible to cater for many diverse people's wishes and desired features.
Such situation dictates the need for upfront communication about the product features before selling the product, to avoid unnecessary disproportionate disappointment due to 'missing' features on the world best car ever.
It is my impression that the most of the disappointment comes from the feeling of 'being cheated' rather than from really missing out on car hp, non-folding seats or acceleration that 'does not measure up' to Mc Laren non-measured performance.
Customers can not feel cheated if they make a conscious decision and a known choice. The feeling of being cheated comes from the choice being taken away from them.
Most people would still buy the same car but would not feel cheated if they had the upfront knowledge of 'missing hp/fractions of second/not folding seats/you name it'.
Going forward, Tesla will learn to manage customers expectations with water tight purchase contracts that allow for product uncertainty/ambiguity if they wish to continue taking orders for their products before the products are fully developed, tested and communicated about.
Such preannounced product uncertainty/ambiguity must be explicit and prominent to be effective in weeding out future dissatisfaction and vocal complaints.
Perhaps that was unavoidable communication (missing) strategy during the business rapid growth. As the business matures, they will learn what sort of communication makes the least damage. I would expect upfront communication about the product features to be part of a more mature business.
In the meantime, perhaps CPO market may be a better place for some customers that are unwilling to risk/bear product uncertainty.�
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