Dec 10, 2012
PRJIM The car is borderline uncontrollable at posted road speeds if moisture or any contaminants are present on the asphalt.�
Dec 10, 2012
cinergi Sounds like someone has a lead foot :tongue:
I'm now curious. I may have to disable TC (I've never done it in the Model S) to see what kind of power is being held back! :scared:�
Dec 10, 2012
brianman I don't recommend it when it's raining.�
Dec 11, 2012
PRJIM On the roadster disabling T/C does make the vehicle somewhat uncontrollable but on the Model S it goes to a whole new level. The car is pretty much useless if T/C is disabled and especially if the surface you are running the car on is not pristine. Any decent romp of the accelerator results in lateral motion and experienced hard corrections are required to make sure the vehicle goes in the direction intended.�
Dec 11, 2012
sublimaze1 My Model S Ambient Light "buzzes" - I hear this is not uncommon.�
Dec 11, 2012
Robert.Boston The buzz should go away if you turn up the lighting level above 80%. But, they do need to fix that in software.�
Dec 11, 2012
lolachampcar It has been my experience that anything with north of 300hp is "borderline un-driveable" or a little hard to control on less than ideal surfaces. Horsepower over 400 is mostly a high speed item with little or no use at lower speeds. Porsche's AWD turbo 99x series seem to make good use of it but I have a 550 that will literally spin the tires at 60 mph by simply rolling into the throttle in third gear (TC off of course). I've been tempted to buy cars with more horsepower (the 458 comes to mind) but always find myself asking the question "Why?".
Anyway, TC lets you enjoy the power you have available without the need for cat like (or Montoya like) reflexes. If you really want to play, just find a skid pad at the local track and ask them to wet it down. Get a driver coach, turn off the TC and practice your CPR (Correct, Pause, Recover). It's a real hoot in just about any car and a lifesaver in one you drive every day. It's well worth the couple of hundred dollars it takes to make it happen.�
Dec 11, 2012
contaygious I have a small buzz at 100% and a bad one at anything lower.�
Dec 11, 2012
dailydriver It can be great fun. Just be sure you have an open parking lot and some room to play. :wink:
�
Dec 11, 2012
NigelM I disagree with that as a blanket statement, but you're right in so far as it takes a good, experienced driver to handle that much power without TC. I grew up racing cars and there's a few other roadster owners who to the track regularly, I've driven he roadster without TC and its kinda exhilarating but get it wrong and you're toast. Haven't tried Model S without TC but I'd like to that at the local track or airfield with plenty of space for the first time out.
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P.S. nice video dailydriver, that you driving?�
Dec 11, 2012
Doug_G I've not found the Roadster to be at all "uncontrollable" with the TC off. Quite the contrary. But whatever you do don't switch off TC in the rain - bad idea!!!�
Dec 11, 2012
dailydriver Thanks. Yup - I couldn't wait to see what the car could do with all of that torque. I made the video just a few days after I got the car. I'll have to wait until spring to get the car on the track though.�
Dec 11, 2012
stephenpace I prefer just turning off the ambient lights until they come up with a fix. 100% is bright.
@dailydriver: Nice! I thought we were going to have to wait for the Russians to get the car to see the first one of those.
�
Dec 11, 2012
wycolo > The Model S is borderline undrivable with T/C disabled [PRJIM]
Apart from the fun n games, I'd be concerned if the S could not climb a muddy/snowy/icy/slushy hill almost as well as the Roadster can (which is quite well, thank you). With all that xtra weight on the front axle, the S needs to allow complete power control.
--�
Dec 11, 2012
Trnsl8r I picked up our car on Saturday morning. On Sunday morning I noticed this condensation in one of the tail lights. Anyone else see this?
(Emailed the "ownership" address and my DSs on Sunday and again on Monday, but haven't heard back yet.)�
Dec 11, 2012
NigelM Yup after washing the car, and there's a few others who have mentioned it. Not a biggie, but it needs fixing.�
Dec 11, 2012
ckessel I'm not sure how this gets past Tesla's water testing environment. Surely that's more vigorous than a car wash?�
Dec 11, 2012
qwk This is just a generalization. A measure of HP is useless in comparing different vehicles because of factors like vehicle weight, dyno used, where the hp is measured, transmission type etc. A 500hp car that weighs a lot can be a snail. If you are spinning the tires at 60mph at the power levels you stated, you are using the wrong tires, or the car is poorly setup. I have been in 800+rwhp cars that get good bite on the street even at low speeds, too many variables. A better measure is trap speed at a drag strip.�
Dec 11, 2012
Dave Rauschkolb Yes, I've had the car one week and the left backup light does this but not the right one.
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I have had the car one week with everything working perfectly. Today I had a "Call Tesla Service" light come on for a few minutes then it turned off. I called the Tampa Service Center and they said it was a "false positive" glitch in the last upgrade. He said if the light does not go off then there is a need for concern otherwise don't worry.�
Dec 11, 2012
stephenpace Yes, although mine is on the passenger side (I can see similar after a car wash), but not as bad. I've got it on my list, though. I'm not sure if this part is supposed to be sealed or not, but it seems like it should be. My guess is some adhesive came loose on a few, but they have not evaluated it yet.�
Dec 11, 2012
jomo25 So, based on the list of issues, the ones that would concern me the most are the ones with anything related to how the car drives. I.e., the issues related to TC being disabled or reduced power only being available. Not to be too dramatic, but it would seem these could lead to a serious problem (like an accident) if they happened in the normal course of usage. This is my read based on the descirptions of the issues. Or are they not that concerning?
I'd hate to be driving along, in bad weather, when TC became unusable. Or pulling onto a road from a parking lot and trying to speed up to the flow of oncoming traffic and not be able to do so and get hit from behind.
All the other issues are annoyances. But anything related to the drive would be deterrents for people to feel safe in the car.�
Dec 11, 2012
contaygious The reduced power bug happened when I started the car. It didn't happen while driving. It's very reduced so you can't really get far without noticing it. Seems totally fixed now with v 4.0. Of course now I have the low windshield wiper fluid one in it's place every once and a while...�
Dec 11, 2012
NigelM Ditto.�
Dec 11, 2012
Rich105 Another bug I have seen with 4.0 is after using nav, once you exit nav back to music, the left side of the dash which normally displays the current audio source is blank. I have now gotten in a habit of rebooting the dash after every use of navigation to get the current audio display back. Have others seen this issue?�
Dec 11, 2012
NigelM I've had that but you don't need to reboot, you can just press the left scroll wheel and re-select whatever you want to see there (I like to have the trip meters there).�
Dec 11, 2012
Rich105 ah - thanks! and since others talking about windshield fluid warning, +1 from me (including trying to fill it and having the fluid disappear).�
Dec 12, 2012
Sparrow I don't have the 4.0 software yet and I have had that same experience with the left side of the dash no longer remembering what it was displaying before using the nav function so I think it is a pre 4.0 problem.�
Dec 12, 2012
mknox Is it just me, or is Tesla releasing a lot of buggy software? False alerts (washer fluid), having to re-boot screens, weird performance issues and so forth seem like obvious things that Tesla's software engineers should have tested and de-bugged before release.�
Dec 12, 2012
dflye I'm thinking for non-critical components (i.e., not directly related to making the vehicle move), it is more of a typical software release cycle: add some new features, fix some known bugs, take a few laps through QA testing, unintentionally add some new bugs (hopefully less added than fixed). Rinse, repeat.
If Tesla didn't release until they found and fixed every single bug in non-critical components, we'd never see a software update!
As long as I'm not left with a smoldering heap on the side of the road, I'll take new bugs along with new features. :wink:�
Dec 12, 2012
efusco Push it with bugs and fix it in the updates I say. Little quirks like that are minor inconveniences, the benefits of the added functionality are WELL worth it.�
Dec 12, 2012
PhatCat As we say in the business, "Clean compile, ship it."�
Dec 12, 2012
ChadS It can get depressing when you read through this thread and see all the problems. But then I remember that this is where everybody with a problem is talking about it, so you should expect to hear about a lot of problems here. Then I go out in to the garage and see the car we've been driving since September, and I feel a lot better - we are not having any issues with it.
Every car has issues. Are Teslas having more than most? Could be, but I'm not sure, and don't think we can tell by reading this thread. It will be interesting to see once JD Power or somebody surveys owners.
Something even more important than the issues a car has is how the manufacturer addresses them. So far Tesla has done a great job on that. (Yes, communication could still be better).�
Dec 12, 2012
ckessel I'm not sure the general population is going to feel that way. I remember in some other threads statements that Tesla needed to absolutely nail the quality aspect of the car given the market they're in. Tesla themselves said they delayed delivery to focus on quality though that seems to have been more physical than software.
At this point, Tesla's quality on the software front seems debatable.�
Dec 12, 2012
mnx I think the general population will be tolerant of bugs if they know an update is coming in ~6 weeks that will fix the problem. I know I would.�
Dec 12, 2012
MikeK Depends on the bug, obviously. False "windshield washer" warnings, sure. Failures of the 3G that require pulling fuses, or the car entering limp modes that keep it to 10mph unless you reboot it three times, not so much.
I think it would also be good for there to be a way to tell users about issues. For example, the windshield washer thing cost me some time and caused me to email the service folks. Would have been nice to know that it was an "expected" bug.�
Dec 12, 2012
lolachampcar Someone mentioned in another thread (or perhaps this one) that a winning JD Power quality number was 72 or 73 defects per 100 cars and that most manufacturers like BMW and Mercedes were over 100/100! I think Tesla is doing just fine given the software element on this car controls everything. Most mfgs simply plug in modules by other vendors with nowhere near the feature list.�
Dec 12, 2012
ElSupreme
Yeah that was me. It is probably worth repeating. But remember that a single software bug is probably 100 defects (or close to) per 100 cars. As it would be present in all cars. The reported defects would probably be less than 100 but it still would be a really big number. Also new models will have higher defects than an industry average.�
Dec 12, 2012
strider All 4 of my doors require the same amount of effort to close - regardless of which one is last.�
Dec 12, 2012
NigelM Same here. In any case the slightly lowered windows should obviate any air pressure effect.�
Dec 12, 2012
strider I agree w/ MikeK. The "general population" buys smartphones and computers and those things (be it Microsoft, Apple, Google, etc) have tons of bugs all the time. I've had to reboot such devices an innumerable number of times yet I keep buying and using them because so far the benefits outweigh the pain. Cars are becoming the same way.
That being said, 3 days in our car has been flawless.�
Dec 12, 2012
ckessel They also buy washers, dryers, refrigerators, stoves and such with non-trivial software components these days and there isn't much forgiveness for bugs there. I think a car is more like those items than the ones you mentioned. Obviously we see that differently, but the point is Tesla is going to have a sizable chunk of customers with low bug tolerance.�
Dec 12, 2012
Todd Burch I've got a question about the buzzing ambient lights. Everyone keeps saying that they expect a software update to fix the problem. I'm a bit confused. It seems like this is a hardware problem. Forgive my ignorance, but how would a software update fix the ambient light buzzing?�
Dec 12, 2012
aviators99 The way you talk about bugs in software sounds like someone who used to work at Microsoft---oh, wait.�
Dec 12, 2012
AndyM This way, we can feel more involved in the process of developing the best car in the world. (?)�
Dec 12, 2012
stephenpace Not sure who said that. From what I understand it is a hardware fix. Only software fix would be "if ambient lights = on then set screen brightness to 100".�
Dec 12, 2012
nolngrgrsngslde When I use an LED bulb with a dimmer at home, it hums until i raise the power to the max. This is because the LEDs cannot deal with the modified signals. Doubt that can be fixed via software. You can fix it on your own by buying an old style ambient bulb that fits in there.
Has anyone noticed that in the last few pages on this thread , there has not been any reports of new problems.�
Dec 12, 2012
MikeK Has anybody else noticed a very low-frequency rumble when you first start the car? I'd guess it's 15-20Hz, and it lasts maybe 30 seconds if that. It seems to be tied to whether or not climate control is turned on.
Wasn't sure if this was just a normal thing or if I might have a bum compressor or something.
Oops.�
Dec 12, 2012
efusco I think it is the heat pump, turning off climate control makes it stop.�
Dec 12, 2012
Doug_G There are many possibilities, because the line between hardware and software is much blurrier these days. "Firmware" can mean software executed in a microprocessor or it can mean configurable digital logic in an FPGA. Or both - my company uses FPGAs that contain soft-core microprocessors; you can modify both the hardware and software for those processors simply by changing the FPGA firmware.
Another simpler possibility is that there is a PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) signal being generated by a microprocessor, which is used to regulate the brightness of the lights. They could alter the PWM frequency to make it inaudible.�
Dec 12, 2012
Todd Burch No car yet for me so I can't confirm but it might be this, from Model S Owner's Guide p. 14: "When Model S starts, you may hear the compressor as it fills the system�s reservoir with air."
Wouldn't be tied to climate control...just offering it as a possibility.
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Thanks...that makes sense.�
Dec 12, 2012
MikeK Good thought. I hear that one too, but it's a very different sound. Almost a buzz, very reminiscent of the same sound I get from my RAV4's brake system, which uses a pump to develop pressure (vacuum?) in the absence of engine vacuum.�
Dec 12, 2012
ibcs I noticed something very interesting with the ambient light issue. When all lights are on when the car is unlocked with dome lights the ambient lights do not buzz. When they are one by themselves they buzz. Don't know if this means anything, but it is interesting.�
Dec 12, 2012
bob_p There are going to be trade-offs between frequent software updates and quality control.
As of now, the software is missing base-level functionality that has been promised before we all finalized our orders - such as WiFi or stored music, and the functionality that is present in the latest release is still pretty rough in places.
So we all want to see them continue making improvements - and releasing them - without unnecessary delay.
But as more time goes by, and more people get their cars, there will be less tolerance by owners for buggy and/or incomplete software.
Since the software is a major part of the Model S - it's probably time for Tesla to start handling this as a commercial software product - and institute a more formal system for collecting feature requests and problem reports from customers - and implement a beta testing environment - so that customers can "opt in" to try out early releases of new software updates, before they are made generally available.
Beyond quality control in the hardware - having incomplete and/or buggy software will start to damage their reputation. Plus, there is the additional risk that a driver could be distracted while dealing with the buggy software - and that distraction could be identified as the cause for the accident.
While what they are doing with the onboard software is new for the automative industry - this isn't new for the software world - and while there are still a relatively small number of cars on the market - and in the hands of relatively friendly and currently forgiving customers - they should be more proactive about this situation - and make the necessary improvements to their development team and development/release process.�
Dec 12, 2012
Zapped I agree with you completely.
It should be up to the end-user to decide on an upgrade (unless the upgrade addresses a safety issue)
At our company updates are turned off on all software including the OS, until stability is confirmed usually after 1 -2 months after a release. Certainly there are individuals that are needed as "beta testers" for new releases but they are for the most part volunteering to running the new release through the paces in a non-mission critical environment.
Personally I don't like to try new releases, so I will usually wait to get the new features�
Dec 12, 2012
strider But those things you mention perform only one function. I also would expect them to perform that one function correctly. Cars used to fall into that category but no longer. A Model S is a car, phone, GPS navigation system, multi-featured A/V system, web browser, etc, etc.
I would assume people will have varying degrees based on what system the bug is in. On my phone, if I can't make a phone call, I become pretty furious. But if there's a bug in say, the weather app, I'm more tolerant. I would imagine the same would apply to the Model S. If a bug affects drivability then I would expect the expletives to fly. But in a "nice to have" feature will become less irate. And other manufacturers are struggling w/ this - witness Ford's ongoing debacle w/ their MyFord Touch, people's endless complaints about BMW's iDrive or MB's COMMAND. The more functions you want a device to perform the more chance for something to go wrong. It's just the way it is.�
Dec 13, 2012
lolachampcar The number of "very important issues" requiring Tesla's attention is beyond out of control. I've lived through start ups and crisis growth. It was NOTHING like the scale Tesla faces and it was all hands on deck triage.
Great job Tesla..... I'll live with the bugs for a while if you make it long term as a company.�
Dec 13, 2012
aviators99 Yes, I do. I actually brought it to service this past weekend because of it. I was told that it's normal, but for me it is way too loud to be normal. My father-in-law says that the way it sounds is similar to what he hears on fans that have bearing issues. It's a bit embarrassing to me when I'm demonstrating the car. I made a big deal to everyone about how quiet it would be, and then this thing sounds like a steamship (I'm exaggerating, but still). I agree that it's tied to the HVAC. When I turn it off, it stops. It's not just when the car is started up, though. I can hear it occasionally when I've been driving for a while, when I'm on a quiet road or stopped at a light. Interestingly, if I turn off the HVAC and turn it back on, oftentimes it stops. Keep in mind that temperatures outside here are still in the 80s, but it happens whether I start it in the garage, or after it's been in the sun.�
Dec 13, 2012
NigelM ^ For some reason it's always been my habit to turn off the AC before exiting the car, so I never notice that noise. One thing you do realize with an EV is that all the other small noises suddenly seem loud when there's no ICE masking them.�
Dec 13, 2012
ckessel For me (and many drivers) a car has one function, to drive/park/stop and such normal acts as transportation. The rest are nice amenities. When the car's door handles don't work, the suspension settles onto curbs, the motor restricts you to 10 miles per hour, and the car won't take a charge, those are problems in basic function.
Amenities, while not the core function, can also be significant enough to make the item undesirable. When the Model S lights buzz, the Nav screen requires rebooting, the car gives false warnings on startup, the passenger door requires slamming, and such those eat away at a consumer's patience and faith.
Obviously you and I don't see things the same way on this. And that's ok. Do realize though there is a non-trivial number of people like me. Tesla is going to need to balance their development against not pissing off chunks of the market that don't want to be continual beta-testers.�
Dec 13, 2012
MikeK Thanks for the confirmation. It actually sounds like yours might be louder than mine. Mine is just a low frequency rumble right on the edge of audible frequencies. I thought it could actually be coming from the subwoofer, as you would certainly need a sub to reproduce this frequency.
I will mention it to the service folks today when I drop it off to have the sunroof repaired. "Normal" or not, they should hear from customers who are bothered by it, as that feedback will drive changes down the road.�
Dec 13, 2012
jomo25 I agree with these statements. Too many issues with the primary functions will affect short-term survival of Tesla as a company. Too many issues with the secondary functions will affect Tesla's long-term success.
I guess I'm part of the non-trivial number of people. Let's put it this way, if you bought any other "usual" car, would you be "satisfied" if these things happened with it? If the door doesn't close right consistently, or the lights buzz, or the dummy lights come on improperly, I'd call that an issue and expect it to be fixed quickly. If too many of these things occurred, then I'd reconsider ever buying from them again.
Yes, Tesla is doing something revolutionary here to be sure. And they are a new company, so that buys them some, if not alot of leverage with people. But that only goes so far and for so long. And if Tesla wants to be the mass market company they seek to become, not everyone will give them the same amount of leeway.�
Dec 13, 2012
brianman It's not an ICE vs. EV thing. An EV doesn't get a "pass" on these things because it's an EV.
It's a new company getting its footing vs. an established automaker churning out vehicles after multiple decades of doing it.
For me at least.�
Dec 13, 2012
nolngrgrsngslde I agree a car has to drive/stop/reverse whatever but, this is a $90k car. it is a luxury car, nothing luxurious about having to slam a door shut, or deal with humming noises or, door handles that don't work. I am willing to wait for all that to be fixed but, i hope no more problems pop up with age. Will the door panel fall off in a few years, will the HVAC system die right after the warranty expires???
We are taking some chances with this new company and i accept that, i just hope Tesla will not only fix today's issues quick, but also have mercy on us after 4 years or whenever the warranty runs out.�
Dec 13, 2012
Trnsl8r Sorry if this has been posted before, but does anyone else feel that FM radio reception is a bit iffy? Some channels have more static than I think I get in other cars in the same neighborhoods. Or am I imagining things...�
Dec 13, 2012
brianman Cross-linking the first report I've seen of "missing regen limiting indicator":
�
Dec 13, 2012
jomo25 I was implying that in my use of "usual". "Usual" means ICE vs. EV as well as established company vs. new company. It's why I didn't just say "ICE".
But IMO, one could turn that argument around and say that the issue rate for a new company needs to be lower than the established one. Because the consumer might feel that the chances of it being addressed by an established company are higher since they have the infrastructure and credibility to do so. Whereas its hard to say if a new company does/will.
I can promise you that some of the deferrals are related to the feeling of "I'm not sure if I want to fork over $80K plus for a long term product from a company that may not even be around beyond 12 months." So, the little secondary issues can add to that concern. They can promise lighted visors, but if they aren't around in 6 months, that promise isn't worth much.
That said, I'm not one who is worried about that possibility much. But I guarantee you there are some who are.�
Dec 13, 2012
DrComputer It's like Deja Vu all over again. These "acceptable problems" discussions and "will Tesla be around in XX months" are the exact same issues that we brought up 3+ years ago when we took delivery of our Roadsters. It's now 3+ years later and the company is still around and our Roadsters are still working.�
Dec 13, 2012
jomo25 The roadster audience was/is a very small niche. The Model S audience is orders of magnitude larger. Tesla's ultimate target audience is again orders of magnitude larger than the S'. Each time you try to make a quantum leap in target audience size, the questions will come up. Not because they dont have any track record. But because the education/communication needs to go out to a whole new audience who likely haven't lived on the forum or followed Tesla meticulously as most of us have.
Heck, I took a 6 week break from the forum (after following it almost daily for over a year) and I'm seriously behind in information.
[End of off-topic sidebar from me]�
Dec 13, 2012
ckessel One fellow mentioned his Roadster has been in the stop 24 times in 22 months. Bonnie's died on her west coast trip. Tesla's service might be awesome in all of these cases, but based on the limited anecdotal bits Tesla's Roadster's seem to have a pretty poor quality level as far as bugs/problems/failures. Given the market it's competing in, the Model S needs to be on a much higher level.�
Dec 13, 2012
bonnie To clarify: My Roadster did NOT die on my roadtrip. Tesla chose to err on the side of caution. My car was charging just fine and running as it should. (And to further clarify, I talked with the mods about the wisdom of even posting that part of the story because I thought people would turn it into a negative. We chose transparency. Again, my car did not die. And nowhere in my blog did I imply that it did.)
Who mentioned that his Roadster was in the shop 22 times? I did have mine in the shop earlier this week (well, technically, they came to me) - but it wasn't anything to do with Tesla technology, it was merely a door latch. Something they had done by an outside company. So, IF there was an instance of 22 times, the question really is 'how many of the total times in the shop was it 1) because of a battery/PEM/motor issue or 2) because you didn't like the paint armor/needed new tires/broke something/rerouted an antenna?'.
I don't see anything wrong with holding a company accountable, but to be fair, you have to get the facts straight.�
Dec 13, 2012
Beaker Same issue here, Tesla's ordering new seals and will schedule an appointment when it arrives.�
Dec 13, 2012
ckessel Sorry, my understanding was that you were not able to drive the car home. Whether it was functionally disabled or because it was a conservative service choice by Tesla didn't make much difference in my perception. To me it means the car was in the shop and unavailable. If that take on it bothers you, I can understand.
As for the other fellow.
I fully feel I have my facts straight.�
Dec 13, 2012
bonnie You stated my car died on the trip. That is not true. I was THERE, you were not. I carefully worded my blog to be clear about the situation. I don't know if you misinterpreted because I wasn't clear or because you deliberately misinterpreted because you wanted to use that as evidence to support your opinion. Play all you want with the words, but the facts are otherwise than what you stated. Tesla did not have final decision on the outcome there, I did.
As far as the other, as you've seen on this forum multiple times, people get upset about both big issues and small. Before damning a car because ONE person says they have that many visits, perhaps you should understand what the visits were for. That's all.�
Dec 13, 2012
kvietor Apparrently, the clear plastic piece is imbedded in the chrome strip and that assembly just sits on top of the taillight housing. I can't really tell without disassembling but I don't think there is any kind of seal between the two. Hense, the condensation.�
Dec 13, 2012
mattjn New car company or not, if I'm forking over 80K+ for a car, it better work the very first time I drive it and every time afterwards. Right now they can get away with it because they are still in the enthusiast part of their waiting list, but if they have any hope of being truly mainstream with gen3 and beyond, these issues need to be fixed and not happen in the 1st place. Same with superchargers. It's great that they are free, but that's not as important as having a huge amount of them, more than Tesla thinks they need. The average family going on vacation is not going to put up with waiting 1 hour or longer 4-5 times per trip.�
Dec 13, 2012
ckessel I stated only what I remembered of the discussion. I did not go read your blog before I posted. I have now since gone and read it:
That was, as far as I can understand it, the end result of the service required. You said that Tesla didn't want to let you drive home in it.
Now, the car didn't actually die on you, but if Tesla was reticent to have you drive it and you had to have the most expensive component in the entire car replaced after Tesla looked at it, then I am comfortable saying that's a pretty major event.
My intent was not to mischaracterize it, but in discussions of technical/mechanical issues with Tesla's cars, I think that qualifies.�
Dec 13, 2012
Grendal I think your post is completely unrealistic. Tesla is not GM, Ford, or BMW with their enormous history of making cars. They are a relatively new company making an exceptional new electric car and will be for the next decade or so. Even the older companies I listed have issues with their cars from time to time. That goes for even very expensive cars like Ferrari's which recently had a tendancy to burst into flames. You think an owner that's paid $350,000 for a supercar wants it to work perfectly each and every time?
It will be an ongoing concern with Tesla to keep their cars and infrastructure working at the very best. BMW 7 series just had a recall for their doors flying open while driving. Perfect is not going to happen. That's from a car owner that had his car in yesterday for a fuel pump recall in my old ICE GM car.
As for the "the average family going on vacation is not going to put up with waiting 1 hour or longer 4-5 times per trip." It's going to take a while for the average person to change their expectations of how a car works. Tesla is going a long way to do that but an EV has strengths and weaknesses. An EV will probably never be as easy to fill up as a gas car, but a gas car will never be as easy to drive around town.�
Dec 13, 2012
FlasherZ I've had a ranger visit where the FM reception was looked at. They tried replacing the FM amplifiers but it didn't make them any better. I was able to demonstrate a fuzzy station in the Model S that was near crystal clear in my other cars (and the ranger's). He said he will do a bit more research, but it may be a design problem that needs to be looked at.
As to the other current topic of conversation: I will repeat something I said in an early thread. No car that I've ever purchased -- regardless of amount -- has ever had zero issues and worked perfectly, and there have been a good number of them. I had my first Ranger experience over the past couple of days and I have to say that I'm extremely pleased with the service.�
Dec 13, 2012
strider I completely agree with you that anything that affects drivability is a big problem and should not be tolerated. However I think we need to differentiate between problems affecting a few cars (what are effectively manufacturing defects) and true software bugs that affect the entire fleet. Any manufactured good is going to have some kind of failure rate with a bias towards the beginning of the cycle.
We have not had a single one of the issues you mention in our car. I guess I have the suspension settling issue but we just leave the car in standard and don't park over curbs (thanks to Steve and TMC to warning us about this before we got our car). So that means only one of the things you list are true system-wide problems. The rest are related to getting cars that are first off the line while Tesla was still getting it's feet under it.�
Dec 13, 2012
Doug_G I disagree with that statement 99% of the time. When I'm charging at home for daily driving it's uber convenient. 10 seconds each night beats pumping gas outdoors every time.
The only time it's "not as easy" is on road trips, when it does sometimes become a bit tedious with the waiting.�
Dec 13, 2012
bonnie Context matters. Yes, those specific words were in my blog. Also in my blog were the words, "My car was fully charged, operating perfectly." I took exception your statement asserting my car died on the trip (since I was there and that did not happen). My blog also mentions that I suspect they took the battery for reasons having to do with engineering knowledge, rather than drivability. But of course, I don't KNOW that. I only believe that is a possibility. And if I don't know that, then outside of Tesla Service, none of us know that either.
It's fair to want to know what the reliability of the cars are - but of your two examples, one was not correct and the other doesn't have enough context to draw any real conclusions. And of course, as others have noted, the Model S is not the Roadster, which was an early-adopter, image-building, proof-that-EVs-can-be-exciting halo car. Different scenario.�
Dec 13, 2012
Grendal That was my exact point too. Perhaps I could have written my post better to clarify that. Add in "for long trips" after "never be as easy to fill up as a gas car." I thought it was implied from the quote I pulled from Mattjn.�
Dec 13, 2012
MikeK I dropped my Model S off at Menlo Park today to have the sunroof repaired and get the door handle with the discolored chrome replaced. I'm told to expect it to take a few days because the techs don't have a lot of experience with the roof, so they will likely take things a bit slowly. They're also quite busy, with a bunch of cars being prepped for delivery.
Am I disappointed? Honestly, yes. After waiting three and a half years for the car, it's disappointing that it's not perfect. It sounds petty and whiny to say it, but it really does detract from the pleasure of having the new car at last, when you have to take it to the shop right away because of things that were defective on delivery day.
I do want to be clear, though, that everybody -- from the folks who did our factory tour, to my delivery specialist who hadn't had a day off in weeks, to the service folks at Menlo Park -- everybody has been great and very helpful and focused on making things right. Everybody has been wonderful to deal with. Really wonderful. I can't say enough about how conscientious and professional everybody at Tesla has been. They are all a credit to the company. Tesla has done a super job with hiring great people.
The Model S is a splendid car, and it should absolutely be an enormous success. I do think they need to up their game a bit on initial quality, though.
I'm going to be writing up a bunch of first-week feedback to send off to GeorgeB and whoever else at Tesla may benefit from it.�
Dec 13, 2012
dsm363 I totally agree with you on the quality. Basically a rock solid car with a few glitches and software issues that should lessen over time. Glad you're providing feedback and sorry to hear your car is taking a mini-staycation. Hope it gets fixed soon. I agree that all the service people (including the new service person I've been talking with but haven't met yet) have been very professional and great to work with.�
Dec 13, 2012
Doug_G Unless the door handle is a serious "blocker" problem, i.e. you can't easily get in the car, I would have just waited until the December delivery panic was over. Things will settle down once they get past the end of the quarter. I think you'll find under normal circumstances that Tesla service is extraordinary.�
Dec 13, 2012
MikeK The door handle is only a cosmetic issue with the chrome. If that were the only issue, then I certainly wouldn't be parting with my car for several days to get it fixed at this point.
The major purpose of the visit is to repair the sunroof. I've been waiting 12 years for an EV with a sunroof! Since the car was going to be there for that work, I asked if we could delay the visit by a few days so that they could order the parts and do the handle at the same time.
Honestly, although it sounds a bit pessimistic to say it, given the push to deliver cars this year, I don't expect January to be a very quiet time around the repair centers either. So, better to bite the bullet now.�
Dec 13, 2012
jomo25 It's easier to deliver "excellent customer service" when the ratio of service reps to cars like 1:20. But its MUCH harder if the ratio increases to 1:200. Unless your quality on delivery increases drastically.�
Dec 13, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla MikeK, any mention of a loaner (not necessarily a Tesla)? Did you ask for one?
This has been one of the complaints in the past with the Roadster when it was in for repairs; Tesla hasn't provided loaners thus far (to my knowledge).
However, for the more mainstream Model S, if no loaners are provided (unlike BMW, Audi, Lexus etc.), it'd be a real pain for a several-day-repair affair.�
Dec 13, 2012
GDH +1
Id like to know about loaners as well.�
Dec 13, 2012
efusco I saw that too...guess I better mention it.�
Dec 13, 2012
Robert.Boston Let's decompose this post:
- I just spent 9 hours with my Model S, driving etc. (first full day after delivery). There were a few rough spots, but the core functionality of the car is a full notch above my Audi or my BMW. Mild buzzing of ambient lights? Sure, let's fix it, but I'd rather drive a Model S without ambient lights than a BMW 535.
- No car I've ever owned worked "every time afterwards." Complicated things break; my wife is best buddies with the BMW repair team.
- It's unreasonable to expect that Tesla is going to create a massive charging infrastructure overnight. It's worth remembering that that this will be the first time in history that the vehicle manufacturer will also be taking on the challenge of building a fueling network. Ford does not own gas stations.
- Does the "average family" go on road trip vacations anymore? That's what happened when I grew up in the 60s and 70s in Ohio, but today in Boston, none of my friends pack up their families and drive to the Grand Canyon. Regardless, the irrefutable fact is that the vast majority of driving is done within 100 miles of one's home, so EVs have a firm place in the market, even if they can't fulfill the "spirit of the open road" quite yet.
�
Dec 13, 2012
efusco Thought I'd post a photo of the tail light condensation I saw.
�
Dec 13, 2012
ckessel Well, if we're digging from the anecdotal evidence file, my RX8 had zero items in the first 3 or so years I owned it. Aside from the fact rotary engines eat spark plugs every 25k I haven't had any problems aside from normal maintenance in 8 years with the exception of a rattle in my driver's door. Admittedly, Mazda is one of the companies that sets a pretty high bar for being low on defects.�
Dec 13, 2012
MikeK I was offered a rental car, which I thanked them for but declined because I still have my RAV4-EV, which I would rather drive (white stickers!) than any rental car.
They also offered a ride home or to my office, which I accepted gratefully.
When I dropped my Prius off at Toyota Sunnyvale for its 60k service, I was given my choice of Toyota loaners. I took a hybrid Camry, which was a rather nice car. I imagine that the dealership writes this off as a marketing expense, because they give customers an extended option to try out other models of their cars. In Tesla's case, it wouldn't make sense to offer a Tesla loaner until they're completely caught up with production, and even then I'm not sure it makes sense until they may want to tempt people to consider a new model. For example, in a couple of years, I wouldn't mind a Model X loaner.
- - - Updated - - -
Has anybody else heard the infamous GSM (cell phone) "tick-a-tick, tick-a-tick, tick-a-tick" sounds through the sound system? I've had this happen a couple of times with my cell in the under-screen cubby, but so far only when the stereo wasn't playing anything, and I was in an area with poor/no signal (e.g. an underground parking garage).�
Dec 13, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Thanks, MikeK; a rental car option is great!
Hmm... the speakers aren't shielded well enough?�
Dec 13, 2012
Charged_Up Same issue for me. I was told its not sealed and that's jut the way it is. Can't be good for internals but I guess if ventilated, condensation disappears when dry...�
Dec 13, 2012
FlasherZ Yes... this happens when the phone boosts its signal to try and reach a tower that tells it the signal is weak. This happens in my other cars as well. The cubby is just too close to the amplifiers.�
Dec 13, 2012
JohnEC I dropped my Model S off on Monday at Menlo Park and they had an Enterprise rental ready for me (this was pre-arranged). I tried to talk them into loaning me a Roadster, but that just wasn't going to happen. It's been four days now and the rental gets me around, but I sure miss my S.�
Dec 13, 2012
brianman Request for mods:
1. Please add "discussion" to the title of this thread.
2. Open up a new thread that points to a Wiki so we can have a place to collate "just the facts (ma'am)" on issues discovered.
I come to this thread looking for content that would probably easily be found in #2, but is buried like gold nuggets in this thread these days.
The discussion is great (so I don't it's worth pushing people away from this thread) but a place to collate purely issues (and their resolution) would be lovely.
Thanks!�
Dec 13, 2012
JohnEC - - - Updated - - -
I've noticed that FM reception is kinda lame too. Most stations that used to receive quite clearly in my old car are a bit spotty in the Model S and those that were marginal before don't come in at all. I don't know if this is common because I've never used HD radio before, but quite often when listening to a station that also has HD, I get a strange echo effect at times when I think the radio is picking up the HD signal and regular FM signal and somehow combining them.�
Dec 13, 2012
FlasherZ That's common when the signal reception is spotty -- the HD carrier is on the edge of reception and the radio drops back to analog mode, and when it recovers it blends back to HD mode. I live 40 miles east of St. Louis where TV and radio are crystal clear, except in the model S. The service folks said to turn off HD if you get that fade-in-and-out effect. You'll also notice the annoying habit of the station getting louder when in HD mode vs. the analog fallback.
I claim it's a design issue, because where I live you get great reception on even those clock radios with a 4" tail antenna. I should not hear fuzz in St. Louis stations and should not have to turn off HD mode based on where I live.�
Dec 13, 2012
JohnEC So ... Has anyone received their parcel shelf yet? Or even heard anything about them? I've had my car for a little over a month and a half now, but still no word on the shelf. How hard can it be to make a silly little shelf?�
Dec 13, 2012
Sig698 I have one. I think it may be the old design that they just gave me to shut me up though :tongue:�
Dec 13, 2012
kitk Perhaps every successful product needs to have their own AntennaGate. Has anyone determined where the FM antenna is located in the Model S? I know there was discussion surrounding XM Radio support and it initially being tied to the pano roof option. Would be interesting to determine if there is any difference in either FM or XM reception between the two roof options.
I know that many manufacturers place the FM antenna as a part of one of the window assemblies. Cars I have had with this "feature" have had dramatically degraded FM reception as well.�
Dec 14, 2012
FlasherZ The antenna is on the rear glass. Beneath the glass, in the trim panels on the left and right side of the liftgate are two antenna amplifiers about 1" x 2" which have a snap onto the window, similar to 9v battery snaps but with two female ports on the connector. The left side has an AM/FM amplifier with two coax snap connectors, the right side is an amplifier for XM/Sirius with 1 coax snap connector.
That said, even compared to the embedded windshield antennas in the 80's, the model S's performance is horribly anemic when it comes to AM/FM reception. My ranger's rental car had no external whip antenna and it could receive the stations just fine, while the model S had static and couldn't tune HD on local St. Louis stations (transmitters 40 mi from me).
The GPS antenna is located beneath the upper left corner of the rear glass as well.�
Dec 14, 2012
Robert.Boston I saw a few minor problems in the firmware yesterday:
- The timestamps in the Phone/Recent Calls list are wrong. It looks like there's a bug in parsing the timezone of the call.
- On the center console map, the red icon showing my car disappeared for a while. The screen continued to scroll as I drove, so the car knew where I was. This went away after I stopped, got out, got back in, and set a navigation point. (I'm not sure which of those actions, if any, did the trick.)
- I crashed the center console twice while recording a voice command. No idea why.
�
Dec 14, 2012
mknox My Cadillac CTS has been rock solid too. After 3.5 years and 75,000 miles I haven't even had to do brakes or wipers. No rattles, no cosmetic problems... nothing. There was a recall to "check" for a potential issue, but my car didn't even have the issue they were investigating.�
Dec 15, 2012
brianman Ooh, thanks for the reminder. I meant to post...
On Thursday, I made about 4 phone calls. On the last call, it showed the correct number but the name below it was from the third call. I contacted the desired party with no issues and they weren't confused by what they couldn't see�
Dec 15, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Good idea, Brianman. You should be able to take a stab at kickstarting the wiki, no?!
I do have a request for the mods; it's about time this thread became a sticky?! Not that it's hard to find otherwise but, we can have it front and center. Unless we are all trying to hide something from prying eyes
If there's an effort to limit the number of stickies, I think the sticky about the free Supercharging for early 60 kWh orders can safely be demoted now IMO...�
Dec 15, 2012
dsm363 Looks like someone created a wiki in this thread already
Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues�
Dec 15, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Nice! Thanks, Dave.�
Dec 15, 2012
MikeK I've seen that too. It seemed as if it happened when the number I was calling was not in my phone book -- it left the stale info from the previous call.�
Dec 15, 2012
walla2 Same problem here too with condensation in the tail lights. Just on the driver side. Just like the picture.�
Dec 15, 2012
Jeeps17 I seriously hope that is not the case.
Condensation may dry up in warmer climes, but it will not during winter, or during long periods of wet weather...�
Dec 15, 2012
pilotSteve FlasherZ - your knowledge never fails to amaze! Thanks for all your posts.�
Dec 15, 2012
timdorr TPMS Warning
So, got my Tesla today and I'm loving it. It came off the truck with a few warnings about servicing the car, but I was aware of those being fixed by the 4.0 software. That update was immediately available to me and I didn't yet have my temporary tags (shipping issue with FedEx, but that's another story...), so I took the opportunity to upgrade.
Most of the warnings have gone away (the windshield wiper one comes up occasionally, but I know that's a 4.0 bug), but I'm left with a tire pressure system warning. I've checked my tires and all except one were over-inflated to 51 PSI, so I dropped them down to 45 as indicated by the label inside the driver's door. But despite that, the message remains and is persistent.
I've noticed no other serious issues and I left a message with the Dania Beach service center (the Atlanta one isn't open yet) to see if this is a known issue. Has anyone else seen this warning? I didn't see anything come up in searches, so maybe it's just me. I hope I'm not damaging the car, but I just want to drive it all day long!�
Dec 15, 2012
strider Yes, this should be a note to everyone who's getting a car w/o a DS there - the tires are set to max pressure for shipping. The recommended pressure is 42psi for the 21's.
Did the warning say tire overinflation warning or a more general TPMS error? We had the pressure warning (our tires were at 51psi even though we picked up at the factory) but once I dropped it to 42psi it went away and hasn't come back. If the warning is still there at 42psi a ranger will need to take a look and possibly re-sync the sensors.�
Dec 15, 2012
timdorr Nothing about overinflation, just a general TPMS warning and a note to contact Tesla Service (which I have done). I have 19" wheels, so they are 45 PSI cold and therefore 51 isn't a huge deal, just non-optimal.�
Dec 15, 2012
MikeK I believe the manual says that the car has to be driven a certain distance before the TPMS will register correct inflation.�
Dec 16, 2012
Mike_Schlechter Not sure if this is a bug or purposeful. Want to remove the charger by coming around the back of the car. I couldn't it was not responding when I hit the button. I walked around from the front, no standing to the left of the charger, and out it came. I tested it a few more times. You can't pop the charger if you are standing to the right of the thing. Am I nuts?�
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