Thứ Ba, 1 tháng 11, 2016

Tesla Gigafactory Investor Thread part 9

  • Jul 24, 2014
    heosat
    Until I see photos I'm loathe to believe that.
    �
  • Jul 25, 2014
    Lump
  • Jul 25, 2014
    Yggdrasill
    If this is a Tesla Gigafactory site, no way they would terminate the contract unless they had something else brewing. If this is a Gigafactory site, this layoff (if true) pretty much confims a second site, that is moving along according to plan. Or that there is a second contractor ready to step in very soon.
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    vgrinshpun
    My thoughts as well...

    So, Texas won??
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    Jackl1956
    California has adopted the United States' first energy storage mandate, requiring the state's three major power companies to have electricity storage capacity that can output 1325 megawatts in place by the end of 2020, and 200 MW by the end of next year. The new rule issued by the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) will be key to implementation of the state's ambitious renewable portfolio rules, which calls for 33 percent of delivered electricity to come from renewable sources by 2020 and virtually guarantees that California, along with Germany, will remain in the world vanguard of those aggressively building out wind and solar.

    California has mandated the purchasing of energy storage. In Texas you can't even buy a Tesla.
    �
  • Jul 25, 2014
    Lump
    Transport Evolved thinks the contractor was fired for being behind [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Tahoma, sans-serif]schedule & is being replaced. [/FONT]
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    vgrinshpun
    I think if they also can offer changing CARB rules to stop preferential treatment of fuel cells, they might have a better chance ...
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    Jackl1956
  • Jul 25, 2014
    ckessel
    We really have no idea how long the contract was for; was it just ground prep work?

    Seems like very few large scale construction projects (or, hell, any large project in almost any field) hit estimates. Just the complexity in estimating and managing things of that size cause butterfly-effect havoc on early estimates. I certainly hope it was a very long term contractor where the shift can be made up by a better contractor. Otherwise, firing and restaffing just takes longer to finish the job.

    In the software world, I've seen so many projects cancelled for being behind (far too optimistic) targets and then restaffed 3 months later with the exact same deadlines even though nothing had been done in the interim and the new folks had to ramp back up. It's a recipe for long term disaster.

    I'd certainly hope whoever is managing the Gigafactory build doesn't fall into that trap.
    �
  • Jul 25, 2014
    dalalsid

    I'm hoping it's just a race between contractors at multiple locations and whoever is ahead gets to keep working on gigafactory 1. gigafactory 2 will hopefully start 2-4 years later at site 2 considering it needs to come online 3-4 years after site 1 goes online.
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    c041v
    All it takes is one "Owner may terminate contract for convenience" clause.

    Lots of companies that can move dirt, not hard work to level a site. I would be pretty impressed if Tesla was grinding these guys hard to hold the schedule.
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    chickensevil
    Assuming this was indeed a site for the factory, and assuming they were laid off. I would think that the two plausible outcomes would be the two that were suggested.

    Either they were behind schedule so they are getting fired and replaced
    Or Tesla has already decided to move forward with another location

    Since there has been no word yet of another "secret" construction project on a scale this large, and it is really hard to keep a secret when you have this many moving parts (I am surprised the Nevada one lasted a whole month) that I am inclined to think that they are being fired and restaffed with another company.

    Any while it may not be the best idea to fire a contractor, sometimes if they are screwing up that bad you have to do it that way.
    �
  • Jul 25, 2014
    daniel Ox9EFD
    If they are going to bare the cost of breaking ground on multiple sites, how does the economics of that work out? doesn't getting permits, hiring workers etc cost money? so if they have 2 or 3 sites in parallel it means for 1 - 2 of those the investment is dumped.
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    c041v
    Less than you'd think. Probably a few million to get it as far as it currently is.
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    Cosmacelf
    Elon has already stated that they will need more than one gigafactory. The sites that don't win out to be the first site will just be held and put on back burner until they need it. Not as if land is going to get cheaper.
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    MikeC
    Seems like quite a coincidence that the same day that the article came out work was stopped indefinitely.
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    mkjayakumar
    Or... Or.. Or.. Could it be, may be, perhaps, possibly there is now a complete rethink on the need to build a Gigafactory. ?
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    palmer_md
    yep, he and Colbert had a chat last night after the show and they figured out a way to have a wireless power cloud follow the car around the provide power. haha
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    TES-E
    I doubt that. It could be as suggested... replacing a slow contractor. It would also send a pretty powerful message to any current/future contractors to stay on schedule... or risk losing the work.
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    Lump
    Looks like a second source confirmed the site shutdown so today a reporter went out & filed the following according to Bob Tregilus

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  • Jul 25, 2014
    Lump
    Bob Tregilus wrote the original Guest Post: Top-Secret Groundworks Outside Reno, NV Mark First Tesla Gigafactory Site & until he is approved to post in these forums I am trying to relay the news.

    One gentleman on Facebook theorizes...
    Paul Hughes on FB "There is another explanation. This whole thing was a ruse to get California (where they secretly wanted to build the factory in the first place), to step up to the plate and give Tesla what they wanted. And on the same day they closed the Reno site, a Tesla spokesperson said that "California has closed the gap"... that California is ready to move as fast as we are ready to move". it's looking like California, the state with all the high tech jobs already, is about to get 6500 more."


    Bob just messaged me the following...

    http://www.longtailpipe.com/2014/07/gigafactory-says-good-bye-to-reno.html
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    Jackl1956
    I hope this is true. Great for California. Great talent pool for Tesla. We need the brightest most creative people in the world.
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    mkjayakumar
    Creative talent is not necessary to run a factory making batteries. You need people who have a good work ethic and lots of them.

    It is the R&D and engineering talent that brings innovation, and that technically can be anywhere where such talent is available.
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    JRP3
    Has there ever been such intrigue around earth moving? :wink: I'm still hoping for a Nevada site, maybe this is just some sort of pause in the action.
    �
  • Jul 25, 2014
    Lump
  • Jul 25, 2014
    JRP3
    Nice find.

    �
  • Jul 25, 2014
    StapleGun
    Interesting, this is the most relevant quote from the report from the "Tahoe Reno industrial Center Director":

    The way he says it sounds like it was a planned stoppage, but he could just be covering up for the contractor getting tossed.
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    dhanson865
  • Jul 25, 2014
    JRP3
    Since we're talking about Nevada and the GF, this seems appropriate:

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  • Jul 25, 2014
    ckessel
    Given how much of the stock he owns, he's nearly the owner.

    As an investor, I understand what Tesla was doing with the multiple ground breakings, but my heart goes out to the folks in Reno if it doesn't go through. That's a lot of folks getting their hopes up and feeling excited, only to have it dashed. That can generate some serious ill-will. Hopefully Tesla throws whoever was the 2nd site a bone in the ER, talking about potential future development of the site down the road.
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    LakeForest
    The video showed the signs on the security gate well and one of them listed as F&P and Yates. Through some google searches, F&P appears to be a relatively large excavator based in Reno(F&P) and Yates is a Large manufacturing partner, which happens to have built the Nissan battery plant along with some car assembly factories(Yates Construction). Yates seems like a logical partner from my minimal knowledge of the construction industry, and maybe F&P is the company that is "behind".
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  • Jul 25, 2014
    maoing
    From project tiger evacuation permit, the commencement date is 06/26/14. Also the news confirms that the project started 3.5 weeks ago. So the project actually started from end of June which is coincident with Elon/JB's hints. Hope Nevada is the GF site #1, and California will be the GF site #2.

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  • Jul 25, 2014
    tentonine
    I was just glad to see the reporter say that the Tesla spokesperson declined to comment. I don't see why they would refrain from denying any knowledge if it wasn't a Tesla project, so that seems to confirm it (at least for me).
    �
  • Jul 26, 2014
    Jackl1956
    July 25, 2014


    (Sacramento) � California�s Senate Leader Darrell Steinberg issued the following statement after a Sacramento Superior Court denied an injunction to prevent Sacramento�s Sports and Entertainment Complex moving forward. State law, enacted by SB-743 (Steinberg), prevents injunctions against the project pending the resolution of California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA) lawsuits, unless opponents can demonstrate an imminent threat to public health and safety or peril to American Indian artifacts. Opponents also challenged the constitutionality of SB-743, which the Superior Court also rejected.
    �SB-743 protects legitimate lawsuits. But the court determined that the passing arguments, such as post-game rioting, are unfounded. I recognize the passion of the project�s opponents but this latest ruling signifies that unreasoned arguments will not stall progress in Sacramento. It is time to move forward with a brighter economic future for our city.
    �I have always felt that this fight has been bigger than basketball. It is about growing our economy in an environmentally-sustainable way because this project follows California�s vision for smart growth and transit-oriented development. Progress at the Railyards and Seventh and K are real indicators that our community is already seeing a positive effect from the potential of downtown renewal.�

    Background
    SB-743 modernized CEQA throughout California by cutting excessive red tape around urban development and economic growth, including:

    • Removing parking and aesthetics standards as grounds for legal challenges against project developments in urban areas. These standards are most commonly used as CEQA litigation hooks to slow or terminate a new development project. The standards remain in place for green-field developments.
    • Modernizing the statewide measurements against which traffic impacts are assessed and resolved. Currently, a project�s traffic impact can be mitigated by increasing surface parking lots and new vehicle lanes, which increases congestion and pollution. A modernized metric allows traffic impacts to be offset by mass-transit stations, which won�t be subject to CEQA litigation.
    • Expanding an exemption from CEQA litigation for projects located within transit priority areas where a full Environmental Impact Review has already been completed and the project doesn�t deviate from the local specific plan. Currently, the exemption applies only to residential projects but the new proposal expands that exemption to include mixed use (residential/commercial) projects. Examples of mixed-use developments include Rockridge in Oakland, CA or Midtown in Sacramento, CA.
    The law also accelerated judicial review of CEQA litigation challenging the downtown Sacramento Sports and Entertainment complex, while maintaining high standards for environmental protections through demanding a full Environmental Impact Report, public comment, and mitigation of any adverse environmental impacts related to construction of the Sacramento Kings arena.
    Senate Bill 743 was authored by Senate President pro Tempore Darrell Steinberg. Co-authors were Sen. Ted Gaines (R-Rocklin), Sen. Cathleen Galgiani (D-Stockton), Sen. Jim Nielsen (R-Roseville), Sen. Lois Wolk (D-Davis), Assemblymember Ken Cooley (D-Rancho Cordova), Assemblymember Roger Dickinson (D-Sacramento), Assemblymember Dan Logue (R-Marysville) and Assemblymember Richard Pan (D-Sacramento).
    ###?

    - See more at: STATEMENT: Steinberg on Superior Court ruling over Sacramento's Sports and Entertainment Complex | Senate President pro Tem Darrell Steinberg
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  • Jul 26, 2014
    Papafox
    Boots on the ground in Reno this morning with a report on Project Tiger. Although online versions of the story don't include these words, the print version of the Reno Gazette-Journal on July 26 includes an intriguing hint about the potential connection between Project Tiger and Tesla. The spokesman for the Tahoe Reno Industrial Center stated "The pad is 85% complete. It may well be they have reached a transition point and will go into a second phase. There will be more to come next week." It's the "more to come next week" comment that is particularly illuminating because that timetable coincides with with the Q2 ER by Tesla. Hmmmm.

    Also, please note that the photos of Reno-Stead Airport depict a location that is northwest of Reno. The proposed Project Tiger site is located in a valley 18 miles east of Reno. Thus, one would likely be well served by disregarding the photos and focusing instead on the site east of Reno. Since the Reno area has suffered from a loss of gaming revenue over the past number of years, the region would be very eager to attract Tesla and diversify the local economy. Many companies such as Amazon have been setting up warehouses in the Reno area because of a lack of a warehousing tax. Although there'd be no need initially to do much warehousing of batteries, at some point warehousing becomes a necessary component of a large battery manufacturer.
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  • Jul 27, 2014
    Lump
    Work halted at rumored possible Tesla site; more to come
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  • Jul 27, 2014
    hobbes
    If that is a coincidence ;)...
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  • Jul 27, 2014
    BlueTan85
    Pardon if this silly question has already been asked, but why does the Gigafactory need 6500 workers? Are the batteries hand-made? Why isn't the Gigafactory almost entirely robots and automation? Shouldn't it be? In 2015-2016+? If for no other reason, 6500 people suggests quality control risk. Has Elon or someone else at Tesla explained what the 6500 will be doing?
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  • Jul 27, 2014
    tom66
    Tesla expect to be churning out around the same quantity of batteries by 2020 as the rest of the current manufacturing base combined. You will need a lot of machine operators, QC, management, maintenance, administration etc. I would expect a lot of the factory to be automated but not entirely so.
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  • Jul 27, 2014
    chickensevil
    I don't think you quite appreciate the size of this facility. The pad alone is a mile long. Even with a ton of automation, there are going to need to be many people overseeing these machines or doing some of the hand made pieces. Just to put this in perspective assuming that it will be 5,280 by 1,000 ft that would come out to a single floor square footage of over 5 million. Contrast with the Pentagon that employees over 25,000 people and has a workable space of 3,705,793 square feet. I use this as a reference point simply because if I am not mistaken that building is the largest office building in the world (by square footage)... at the very least it is one of the largest.
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  • Jul 27, 2014
    Curt Renz
  • Jul 27, 2014
    chickensevil
    Did you see that Fremont has the 2nd largest footprint? :)

    But yeah, I will take 13 overall, but that 6million number is not usable space... In any case, it is a really big building! So I fully expect this battery factory to break a lot of records.
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  • Jul 28, 2014
    AlMc
  • Jul 28, 2014
    Jackl1956
    But Stockton, population 296,000, is shaping up as a leading in-state contender, economists and business development experts say. They point to plenty of industrial-zoned property, a port that handles ocean-going vessels, major freeway access and nearby rail and airport facilities.

    Having a port would make great sense for shipping battery packs to Tilburg, or China.
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  • Jul 28, 2014
    AlMc
    Jack, I hope it is there but the article also acknowledges that labor costs, taxes and restrictive laws may be a negative. This has been my contention all along that it will be a difficult decision. TM's heart may say Cali, but their head may say Reno. Personally, my only concern is that is get up and running asap.
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  • Jul 28, 2014
    chickensevil
    Well, since their head and heart can't get in sync I see them just saying screw it and building both factories all the way in parallel. :p
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  • Jul 28, 2014
    AlMc
    Works for me. :)
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  • Jul 28, 2014
    palmer_md

    Wow Stockton? I just moved from Stockton to Sacramento two years ago. I'm interested in working for Tesla at their battery factory, and never thought I'd hear Stockton in the mix.
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  • Jul 28, 2014
    ecarfan
  • Jul 28, 2014
    AlMc
    Hence, the reason for my question mark in the original post :wink:
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  • Jul 28, 2014
    hobbes
  • Jul 28, 2014
    Papafox
    More "boots on the ground" update about potential Nevada site.

    If "Project Tiger" is in fact a Tesla project, then it is located in Storey County, Nevada. This is a terrific location for receiving building permits quickly because Storey County has a reputation for doing so in the Tahoe Reno Industrial Center. The center is located across a substantial range of hills from the main population center of Storey County: the Virginia City area. Thus, any property tax revenue from the industrial center benefits residents who never see the commercial activities nor deal with any traffic concerns, etc. It's a perfect environment for fast approval of building permits.

    Geographic proximity to California is of course another plus, when coupled with the ability to ship batteries by rail to the Fremont factory site. A major trucking company works from the area, with mostly one-way traffic from the Port at Oakland to Nevada and an assumption of somewhat empty trucks heading back in that direction. Again, this is another plus in terms of potential transportation costs.

    The Reno area is a forty-five minute drive from Lake Tahoe, with its summer recreation and winter skiing/snowboarding activity. With no income tax in Nevada, Reno has been a popular location for California retirees fleeing the high tax environment of California. The Reno area would be an attractive location to live for gigafactory employees.

    Finally, lithium has been found in Northern Washoe County, the county in which Reno is located. For all these reasons, I'm placing my bet that the Reno area will either win the first gigafactory or be awarded one of the next few gigafactories to be built as the inevitable demand for Model 3 necessitates additional battery capacity. I'll be very curious to see if California lawmakers can pass sufficient measures to entice Tesla into that state instead of Neada. We may find out on Thursday.
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  • Jul 28, 2014
    AudubonB
    Or...just maybe....the new chemistry is a Titanium-Germanium-Radon battery..... ;)
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  • Jul 28, 2014
    JRP3
  • Jul 28, 2014
    Zzzz...
    The energy density, the specific energy of proposed chemistry from that paper is much higher than what Tesla is currently using.

    The much hyped tech from some Japanese startup is completely different story.
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  • Jul 28, 2014
    Matias
  • Jul 29, 2014
    evme
    Some more info on the Nevada site:

    Layoffs Cost 280 Jobs, Raise More Questions About Secretive Project

    Apparently the halt came after a high level inspection. So there might be something wrong with the area.

    Though one thing is I am not too thrilled about the behavior of the contractor Tesla chose. Giving people promises of long term employment if they quit their jobs is not very ethical in my book :mad:
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  • Jul 29, 2014
    chickensevil
    so as I posted in the comments on the article:
    "Given that I work for a contractor, and being awarded a "5 year" contract doesn't even mean you will get the full 5 years (you could just get 1, or you could do terrible and get kicked off the contract...) And the contracting company will tend to tell you whatever in order to get you to go. So I am more inclined to blame the contracting company more than whoever hired them *cough Tesla cough*"
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  • Jul 30, 2014
    evme
  • Jul 31, 2014
    Benz
    On the Dutch Autoweek website they just mentioned that Panasonic will invest a total cumulative amount of at least $2B in the Gigafactory, instead of the earlier mentioned total cumulative amount of $1B. Are there any other reports that confirm this?
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  • Jul 31, 2014
    wk057
  • Jul 31, 2014
    Benz
    PANASONIC AND TESLA SIGN AGREEMENT FOR THE GIGAFACTORY
    THURSDAY, JULY 31, 2014
    OSAKA, Japan / PALO ALTO, USA, July 31, 2014 � Panasonic Corporation and Tesla Motors, Inc. have signed an agreement that lays out their cooperation on the construction of a large-scale battery manufacturing plant in the United States, known as the Gigafactory.


    According to the agreement, Tesla will prepare, provide and manage the land, buildings and utilities. Panasonic will manufacture and supply cylindrical lithium-ion cells and invest in the associated equipment, machinery, and other manufacturing tools based on their mutual approval. A network of supplier partners is planned to produce the required precursor materials. Tesla will take the cells and other components to assemble battery modules and packs. To meet the projected demand for cells, Tesla will continue to purchase battery cells produced in Panasonic's factories in Japan. Tesla and Panasonic will continue to discuss the details of implementation including sales, operations and investment.


    The Gigafactory is being created to enable a continuous reduction in the cost of long range battery packs in parallel with manufacturing at the volumes required to enable Tesla to meet its goal of advancing mass market electric vehicles. The Gigafactory will be managed by Tesla with Panasonic joining as the principle partner responsible for lithium-ion battery cells and occupying approximately half of the planned manufacturing space; key suppliers combined with Tesla's module and pack assembly will comprise the other half of this fully integrated industrial complex.


    JB Straubel, Chief Technical Officer and Co-founder of Tesla Motors said: "the Gigafactory represents a fundamental change in the way large scale battery production can be realized. Not only does the Gigafactory enable capacity needed for the Model 3 but it sets the path for a dramatic reduction in the cost of energy storage across a broad range of applications."


    Yoshihiko Yamada, Executive Vice President of Panasonic, added, "We have already engaged in various collaborative projects with Tesla toward the popularization of electric vehicles. Panasonic's lithium-ion battery cells combine the required features for electric vehicles such as high capacity, durability and cost performance. And I believe that once we are able to manufacture lithium-ion battery cells at the Gigafactory, we will be able to accelerate the expansion of the electric vehicle market."


    Cost reductions will be achieved through optimized manufacturing processes driven by economies of scale previously unobtainable in battery cell and pack production. Further price reductions are achieved by manufacturing cells that have been optimized for electric vehicle design, both in size and function, by co-locating suppliers on-site to eliminate packaging, transportation & duty costs and inventory carrying costs, and by manufacturing at a location with lower utility and operating expenses.


    The Gigafactory will produce cells, modules and packs for Tesla's electric vehicles and for the stationary storage market. The Gigafactory is planned to produce 35GWh of cells and 50GWh of packs per year by 2020. Tesla projects that the Gigafactory will employ about 6,500 people by 2020.
    �
  • Jul 31, 2014
    Matias
    Great!
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  • Jul 31, 2014
    Benz
    "Tesla and Panasonic will continue to discuss the details of implementation including sales, operations and investment."

    No mention of the amount that Panasonic will invest in the Gigafactory. Why is that?
    �
  • Jul 31, 2014
    AlMc
    Panasonic is very conservative and wants to see that TM can locate/build the factory AND that demand for the cars continues to grow before committing the cash.

    Benz: You mentioned in another thread that a Dutch? magazine said they were committing $2 billion...Do you have a link? I have tried googling all types of combos and found nothing about 2 billion dollars...just 2 billion yen.
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  • Jul 31, 2014
    Benz
    That's correct, here is the link to that Dutch Autweek news article: http://www.autoweek.nl/nieuws/29354/panasonic-tesla-bouwen-samen-grote-accufabriek

    - - - Updated - - -

    Here is the text of that Dutch Autoweek news article:

    Het Japanse elektronicaconcern Panasonic en Tesla gaan samen een grote fabriek voor de productie van accu's opzetten. Daarover hebben beide partijen een overeenkomst getekend.




    Tesla wil uitgroeien tot een massaproducent van auto's. Maar daarvoor moet het wel op grote schaal goedkope lithium-ion accupakketten aangeleverd kunnen krijgen.

    Accumaker Panasonic, die voor 1,1 procent eigenaar is van Tesla, zegt toe zeker 2 miljard dollar in het project te steken. De geschatte investering kan oplopen tot 5 miljard dollar tegen 2020. Eerder deze week lekte de deal al deels uit in Japanse media. De bedragen die in de kranten werden genoemd, waren alleen lager.

    Er wordt nog gekeken naar de meest geschikte plek voor de accufabriek. Tesla onderzoekt daarvoor mogelijke locaties in de staten Arizona, Californi�, Nevada, New Mexico en Texas.
    �
  • Jul 31, 2014
    Gwgan
    Is Panasonic privy to M3 reservation numbers? I suspect TM wants to move as fast as possible to meet the huge demand that already exists and P's desire to "wait for demand" would only serve to motivate an impatient type to develop their own open-patent tech. The only acceptible delay is the time it takes to actually assemble the raw materials, build the factory, make the batteries, and make the cars they will go into.
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  • Jul 31, 2014
    Zaxxon
    It seems to me that this morning's press release would indicate that we're not likely to get any confirmation on site selection. If Tesla was going to divulge that today, it would have been in the release, no?
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  • Jul 31, 2014
    Krugerrand
    Does it matter? Partnerships are not always 50/50, nor do they need to be in any sense such as monetary contribution. Re-read the press release paying attention to the difference in roles that Tesla and Panasonic will play. A partnership merely needs to satisfy each party in terms of energy contributed and energy received.
    �
  • Jul 31, 2014
    AlMc
    Since TM is responsible for the site location/prep and superstructure I would think Elon would want to announce it himself so I did not think it would be in a press release. However, I do have concerns that TM/Elon will be coy about potential GF locations on the CC.....the 'long' part of my holdings does not care; my Jan '15 options cares A LOT :wink:
    �
  • Jul 31, 2014
    Benz
    "The Gigafactory will be managed by Tesla with Panasonic joining as the principle partner responsible for lithium-ion battery cells and occupying approximately half of the planned manufacturing space; key suppliers combined with Tesla's module and pack assembly will comprise the other half of this fully integrated industrial complex."

    That's a lot of space for Panasonic alone. The other half is for Tesla + other partners. Panasonic's investment in the Gigafactory must be equally close to half of the total investment for the Gigafactory too, one could think, right?
    �
  • Jul 31, 2014
    vgrinshpun
    The statement indicated that Tesla will be responsible for ALL infrastructure, i.e. ALL buildings, roads, communications, power, etc. The Panasonics responsibility is for what INSIDE the building, i.e. manufacturing equipment, tooling, etc. Other suppliers will probably be responsible for the manufacturing equipment associated with their production.
    �
  • Jul 31, 2014
    Benz
    Got that.

    What I actually wanted to say is that although the total amount to be invested in the Gigafactory by Panasonic is not mentioned in the Tesla Motors press release, it will surely be substantially high. As they will be using half of all the space inside the Gigafactory. They will need to buy a lot of machines/tools if they want to fill half the Gigafactory, right?

    Anyhow, Panasonic has finally decided to come on board and to commit themselves to join Tesla Motors in this EV journey. The Gigafactory is of an enormous significance for the future success of Tesla Motors (and EV's in general).
    �
  • Jul 31, 2014
    Zzzz...
    Couple months ago Boston Power raised $250 millions. Raised to build factory in China to produce li-ion cells with 207 Wh/kg specific energy. And BP is a small startup. And there is no contractually obligated party to buy output of the plant...

    Worries about gigafactory funding/financing IMO are unfounded. Tesla alone could raise 10x that much easily. And two billion $ would be more than enough to start initial production, at scale. Much more important part for Tesla is to pick right partner and to place bet on a right tech.
    �
  • Jul 31, 2014
    palmer_md

    Where do I reserve?
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  • Jul 31, 2014
    Madartist
  • Jul 31, 2014
    Benz
    From the Shareholder Letter of Q2 2014 ER:

    "In June, we broke ground just outside Reno, Nevada on a site that could potentially be the location for the Gigafactory".

    Now it's been confirmed that the first location indeed is the site just outside of Reno, Nevada.
    �
  • Jul 31, 2014
    Cosmacelf
    From today's call, the reason the Reno location has been put on hold has to do with permitting. They are waiting for Nevada/Reno to move ahead with incentives and permits...
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  • Jul 31, 2014
    Zaxxon
    More specifically, 'Ball's in the governor's court.'
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  • Jul 31, 2014
    chickensevil
    In addition they confirmed that they took it to the point where they had a pad flattened out ready to go as soon as they get the word. They still plan to do exactly this at 1 or 2 other locations so whichever state pulls through first will get everything moving forward with pouring concrete and such.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I would suggest to any contractors in those states if you get brought onto a project that is clearing about 5 million sq ft of land you might not want to expect that job to continue beyond about 1 month...
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  • Jul 31, 2014
    Newb
    If I remember correctly, during the call Elon said total GF investment by 2020 will be around 4 billion, Tesla investing around 30-40%, Panasonic around 40% and other investors + state would take the rest.

    Did I get that right? So Tesla will have invested around 1.4 billion in GF by 2020?
    �
  • Jul 31, 2014
    mrdoubleb
    Something like that.

    i am always amazed at the average analyst/writer saying how big of a scam the GF is as Tesla is short 3bn. One would expect people doing business analysis for a living understanding the difference between starting up a plant and reaching full capacity 3 years later.
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  • Aug 1, 2014
    evme
  • Aug 1, 2014
    chickensevil
    Close, it was 4BN to get into production by 2017 and then the rest to go to full production would likely hit 5BN. Percentages are correct though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Here are all the relevant notes I took relating to just the factory from the earnings call, hopefully this helps, since a lot of questions being asked were clarified on the call:

    Full notes here: Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2014 - Page 594
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  • Aug 2, 2014
    Robert.Boston
    FWIW -- I had a meeting with a senior official in the California government last week and mentioned the Gigafactory potentially in California. He said "follow the rails, look for a big industrial property." The official exuded the sort of "I know something but can't tell you" confidence that makes me think the odds are very high that the GF will be in California.
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  • Aug 2, 2014
    uselesslogin
    I guess that lines up with the Naval Weapons Station speculated in this article:
    Calif. still in the running for Tesla | www.ktvu.com

    I think if it is there they should build a fully electric locomotive to move the batteries to Fremont. In theory it could be stripping out the diesel tanks and generator and replacing them with batteries. Trains still use electric traction motors so no need to design anything new there. They just need to replace the 3200 horsepower engine and generator which is less than 8 P85s worth of horsepower. Now maybe that is a giant distraction and they shouldn't but it could show the potential for electrifying all transport and at the same time save them transport costs in the long run.
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  • Aug 2, 2014
    AlMc
    That would certainly qualify as 'we are not showing all our cards' on TM's part. Think the State of California or Feds for that matter would not be 'helping' in a big way battery powered trains!
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  • Aug 2, 2014
    Lump
    No way Elon is getting involved with the EPA, scratch that location off the list.
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  • Aug 2, 2014
    daniel Ox9EFD
    It was mentioned that the batteries will be 'next generation', does anyone know what sort of advances are expected? From my understanding of the conversation it is not something revolutionary but relatively evolutionary and conservative. Still NCA or new cathode material?

    It would also be interesting to speculate how much of the expected 30+% cost reduction in battery packs is due to new chemistry, vs. use of custom manufacturing equipment which was mentioned as a big one, and logistics.
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  • Aug 2, 2014
    Jackl1956
    Stockton also has a port. Doesn't Tesla ship cars separately from battery packs to Tilburg. The ability to ship battery packs directly from Stockton to China would be huge.
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  • Aug 2, 2014
    Papafox
    Looks like we've clearly entered the "bidding war" stage of Gigafactory site selection. Nevada has an attractive site that could receive regulatory approvals very quickly, but I suspect the "by the end of the year" timetable indicates there's much more under consideration than just site and regulatory approval. Tesla is obviously looking at the whole package, and California is very hungry to land the Gigafactory. I think it'll come down to whether Nevada can offer inducements that are on the scale of what we're seeing likely in California. Right now, landing the Gigafactory would be a huge feather in Jerry Brown's cap come Nov. 4, and Nevada needs to understand the competitive environment and sweeten the deal accordingly if state officials wish to prevail.
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  • Aug 2, 2014
    Newb
    Thanks chickensevil! That means in turn that there's no need for another "big" investor since Tesla and Panasonic aim for about 80-90% of total GF investment.

    Now I only hope Nevada bureaucrats will decide wisely and swiftly. :cool:
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  • Aug 2, 2014
    daniel Ox9EFD
    If Tesla is looking for the state to invest 10% of the cost, that's about 400 - 500 million $. Doesn't that make Nevada much less likely to take the GF compared to California or Texas that are more likely to have that kind of money?
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  • Aug 2, 2014
    techmaven
    I am not sure that the $500 million or so from the state is cash like that. It is likely a bevy of tax breaks, like property taxes, as well as improvements like roads and rail. Things that will be there after the Gigafactory might be shut down some time in the distant future.
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  • Aug 2, 2014
    RobStark
    The only cash outlays NV will need is for roads,water,sewer, and electrical leading to the front gates of the GF.

    That will quickly be repaid by taxes paid by contractors and workers building the GF and working at the GF.

    Reno has a population of ~230k. The GF is a really big deal to the local economy.

    The rest are tax breaks, or taxes that Tesla will not need to pay for a determined period of time.
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  • Aug 2, 2014
    mountaineer
    The gig factory will employ more than 6000 people. With a population of ~230 and not much manufacturing industry? I am wondering ????? will be able to find enough qualified people in a 2-3 years?

    Here're the major employers in Reno?
    Reno, Nevada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    # Employer # of Employees
    1 Washoe County School District 8,250
    2 University of Nevada, Reno 4,250
    3 Washoe County 2,750
    4 Renown Regional Medical Center 2,750
    5 Peppermill Hotel Casino 2,250
    6 International Game Technology 2,250
    7 Integrity Staffing Solutions 2,250
    8 Silver Legacy Resort Casino 2,250
    9 Saint Mary's Regional Medical Center 1,750
    10 Atlantis Casino Resort 1,750
    - - - Updated - - -
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  • Aug 2, 2014
    dhanson865
    6,000 people will relocate there no problem. It isn't that hard to get staffing for a major player, offer the right pay / benefits and people will line up for the jobs.
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  • Aug 2, 2014
    mountaineer
    Elon talked about the >30% cost reduction from the Gig, ?o anybody what's the current material cost???????? ?????????????????????????

    ?????????????it is forecasted that?????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????lithium anode,???????????????????????????
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  • Aug 2, 2014
    blakegallagher

    based on the earnings call I would say there will be no anode and cathodes but nothing more than that than the many savings that will come from the Gigafactory .. in other news ... if possible please refrain from typing that way ... all the changes in it messes with my brain
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  • Aug 2, 2014
    RABaby
    This may all be obvious, but too much is made about the need for highly skilled people or how Tesla needs to find a location that will entice people to move. I don't think that is an issue at all.

    The Gigafactory is projected to eventually employ around 6,500 employees, just as it is projected to cost around $5 billion when fully operational. In both the case of the expenses as well as employee head count, it won'-t be all at once. The expenses will accrue as more structure, more equipment, and more employees are added. And more employees will be hired as the factory expands.

    As to the skill level required, there will be several levels of skill/experience/education Tesla will be needing. Not everyone, and probably not the bulk, will need a high skill level. This is a new type of factory and we don't know for sure what sorts of tasks will need to be performed but we can probably assume that the highest skill level is already part of the development team and that they will be determining what experience is necessary for each piece of equipment or task. Once the factory is under construction, the "now hiring" sign will go out and the only qualification to get hired may be to pass an aptitude test. Those selected will be trained by Tesla so that they are familiar with the equipment as it gets installed and set up.

    So basically, I don't think there will be a big need for experience in high skill levels because the skill will increase over time and before Model 3 is delivering 500,000 cars a year. The first employees will work with those putting the plant together and once they are independent, they will train newer employees, and then you will have trained personnel to open the subsequent Gigafatories.
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  • Aug 3, 2014
    Jackl1956
    I have owned Mercedes that were manufactured Germany, South Africa, and Alabama. I disagree with your premise.
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  • Aug 3, 2014
    RABaby
    My premise is that skill level is not going to be required for the bulk of new hires. Secondarily, some of the trained people will be part of subsequent factories.

    I do not think we are talking about the building of aircraft which requires a lot of A&P licensed mechanics as well as lots of highly trained machinists. And I also think we are talking about a company run by Elon Musk, which is an entirely different story than companies that look to build complex machinery wherever they can do it the cheapest.

    In the case of Boeing built in Seattle vs other US cities and other countries, those who have worked for the company see the decline in quality, as well do those who study all the expenses and customer complaints by comparing Seattle to every other supplier. Boeing suffered a dramatic decline when McDonnell Douglas bought Boeing with Boeing's money and the cancer invaded. When you squeeze employees, you suffer in quality. When you dismiss the value of tribal knowledge, your product will suffer and it will take longer to build or overcome problems. Those who work for Tesla love the company. Elon knows the value of respect and he respects his employees. As long as Elon is in charge, I don't think multiple locations will suffer the decline in quality demonstrated by companies whose only goal is more profit.

    Currently Tesla trains all its service people. They may be mechanics, but they don't come trained to work on a Tesla and no regular mechanic can work on it. The first employees learned on the job and are only now getting some of the training. That's how work on new technology develops. I was speaking to a technician the other day and he is going to class to learn what he has already learned by himself over the last year, but some haven't worked on the cars long enough to pick up this knowledge so Tesla is making sure everyone gets up to speed on all aspects of the car.

    It isn't a matter of hiring people who are qualified to do the job as much as being part of something that people take pride in building. The pride and the tribal knowledge is passed on to each new employee after they go through an initial training period. This technician couldn't say enough positive about the company.

    The Gigafactory is new, presumably with new processes. The experience will be developed by those who assemble the first products. And this is not old school hand work. This is an automated system that is going to require much less interaction with humans. The manual labor tasks are not likely to require the skill level of those who operate and perhaps tweak the automated systems. Until I hear details of the factory and its machinery and processes that suggest all the traditional training is required and hiring skilled employees is necessary for the bulk of the positions, I stand by my premise.
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  • Aug 3, 2014
    Model 3
    Just remember one thing - the most of this employees will not be Tesla employees, but Panasonic or others partners employees.
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  • Aug 3, 2014
    RABaby

    That may be entirely true, but will the skill level of those non-Tesla employees be significant? The debate is regarding the experience/education required of new hires for the majority of positions - Tesla, Panasonic, et al. And I can't imagine that co-located companies, with Elon as the one in charge, would not be an employee friendly environment. I believe that is key to a successful operation for everyone.
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  • Aug 3, 2014
    Model 3
    Let's hope your right :)
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  • Aug 3, 2014
    Jackl1956
    Jim Sinegal the CEO of Costco was frequently questioned as to why he paid significantly greater salaries than his competition Wallmart (Sam's Club). In addition, he paid on average 85% of employee health benefits. He would respond stating: we are not trying to meet the quarter to quarter expectations of Wall street, rather we are building a company to be here one hundred years from now. He emphasized that paying good wages and providing strong benefits was good business.

    Good wages and successful business paradigms are not mutually exclusive. Go into Walmart and look at the employees and customers. Go into Costco and look at the employees and customers. They are both successful businesses.

    Tesla has the ability to attract the finest people in the world. A great corporate culture should reward all disciplines for their contributions. I am suggesting that Tesla has a remarkable opportunity, there are many ways achieve cost effectiveness. Tesla should recruit from the finest talent pool available.
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  • Aug 3, 2014
    AudubonB
    Good, jackl. Just fyi: Walmart's club store is "Sam's Club". Your stated "Price Club" is the name of the entity that merged with Costco some 20 years ago. A bit confusing, all.Regardless, as someone who has to make use of both Sam's Club (400 mile r/t) and Costco (600 mile r/t), I can attest we far prefer driving the extra 200 miles to avoid using Sam's Club.
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  • Aug 4, 2014
    evme
    Generally speaking, the state that lands the factory usually has a training program worked out with the local universities. So more than likely, Tesla will not have to pay for training most people and it would be covered by the university. Some states even offer funds for training employees.
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  • Aug 4, 2014
    roblab
    It's not the pool, but what you pull out of it and what you throw back. "A company is known by the people it keeps".
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  • Aug 4, 2014
    AlMc
    On another note: Western Lithium Mining Company on the move again today......probably due to the speculation that TM will build the GF, particularly if it is built in Reno.
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  • Aug 5, 2014
    hobbes
  • Aug 6, 2014
    Jackl1956
  • Aug 6, 2014
    chickensevil
    Based on the data in the article it wouldn't seem like it. What qualities would she bring that would directly relate to the project? (I am sincere in asking this since I really don't know anything about her)
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  • Aug 6, 2014
    TSLA Siempre
    agree. would be interested in your line of reasoning here.
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  • Aug 7, 2014
    Jackl1956
  • Aug 10, 2014
    Jackl1956
    800 Million!!!!!!

    Corporate Shakedown? Automaker Tesla Demands $500 Million For its Gigafactory | Alternet

    San Antonio offers up 800 Million? First time I've heard that number bandied about. The article differentiates between Elon's stated 10 percent (500 Million) and Sproule's "fiduciary responsibility" clarification.

    Obviously Tesla will accept the best offer proffered. In any case, Elon goes down in history as greatest poker player ever.
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  • Aug 10, 2014
    Lump
  • Aug 10, 2014
    bollar
    Several Texas MSAs have the resources to make extremely lucrative offers, but I'm sure none will be considered, unless the State fixes the dealer problem.
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  • Aug 10, 2014
    Cattledog
    *800M offer has been around for awhile (several months), makes me think San Antonio is not really on their radar, or they think $800M can be larger since it was a first offer.
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  • Aug 10, 2014
    chickensevil
    I don't know if it is just Elon saying it nicely (so people don't think he is a selfish jerk) or if he really means it... but every time he mentions the Gigafactory and getting the "best deal" from the states, he always includes that it is the best deal for both Tesla AND the state... indicating that is isn't going to do something that would ultimately be bad for the state.

    Makes me wonder though about Texas and if they are turning down (not accepting) the 800 million for a good reason.
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