Jul 18, 2015
dhanson865 I don't know what it was, but it doesn't seem to be there now.�
Jul 18, 2015
brantse It was a very basic, early 2013 model with about 19k miles. I guess the market disagrees for the time being, but I don't think these low end prices will hold up too long.�
Jul 18, 2015
dhanson865 I don't think they will hold up long at all, Elon said yesterday that Model X will start deliveries in 2 months, that means more trade ins to become CPOs.
Same day he announced battery upgrades from 85 kWh to 90 kWh and so far hasn't mentioned an upgrade path for the 60 kWh owners. If there isn't a direct upgrade that will be another wave of CPO cars coming in as people upgrade to the 90 kWh model.
If there is a direct upgrade that will prop prices up as 60 kWh on the cheap becomes a 90 kWh car with upgrade. You'll see 60 kWh cars hovering in price near what they'd be worth with a 90 kWh battery minus the cost of the upgrade.
If there isn't a direct upgrade that will depress the price of the 60 kWh cars further as they are seen as unupgradable.
either way the influx of newer trims of the Model S and the roll out of Model X I'd expect the price of CPOs that are pre autopilot to continue to drop at a steady rate even if that isn't shown on the CPO website yet.�
Jul 19, 2015
No2DinosaurFuel Not sure if anyone brought this up in this thread, but i think people should understand a critical point about the S60.
S60 CPO - keep in mind the original warranty is 8 years/125K miles on power train and battery. With a CPO you get 4 years and 50K miles on top of the current miles but the 125K is the real kicker. So dont expect the power train to be warrantied much pass the CPO warranty. As other have mentioned you dont want to keep a models s out of battery and power train warranty. Recently i hear the repair cost can be in the 10 of thousands for thr drive unit.
S60 inventory - no supercharger enabled. You will need to enable the supercharging which is another 2K or so. Finally also the 8 year/125K miles power train warranty.
Again i am just trying to reinterate why i feel the S60 should be worth a lot less. The new S70 is a much better buy than those inventory S60.�
Jul 19, 2015
ModelSFL I do agree less, not sure how much less though. I still believe a "8 years/125K miles on power train and battery" vs "8 year / unlimited mile" isn't a huge factor. If the owner isn't going over 15,625 miles then it is pretty much the same warranty. I would also assume many plan on upgrading the battery at some point anyways (assuming Tesla ever figures this out).�
Jul 19, 2015
ModelSFL I believe I misunderstood this point. Are you saying you believe the 8 years/125K miles doesn't apply to the CPO/Inventory vehicle? Or are you saying the 8 years/125K miles starts at the date of when the car was made not purchased as a CPO?�
Jul 19, 2015
No2DinosaurFuel I guess i should be more clear. All cpo vehicles will get the remaining balance on the warranty. For sake of understanding ill use the s85. The s85 has a 8 years/unlimited miles warranty on the drive train and battery. If the cpo s85 is a 2013 then the remaining warranty on the drive train and battery is 6 years. The remaining mileage is unlimited still.
So going on this rule, if you purchase a 2013 s60 that has 30k miles. Then your bumber to bumber warranty will end in 2017 or once you hit 80K miles whichever is first. Your power train and battery warranty ends at 2021 or 125k miles which ever comes first.
As i stated before you dont want to own a model s out of warranty on the drive train and battery. As for those who think 125k is a lot, it is not for those who plan to drive the wheels off the car. I have noticed once i had an electric car, my usage greatly increase. Normally i would do 10K miles per year, but recently i can easily do 15k or more per year. Now it seems like i will be doing closer to 17K per year. And that is with an EV that cant leave the city. Imagine if i had the ability to go out side of the city?�
Jul 19, 2015
Cyclone I am not confirming No2Dino's assertion, but I felt the same and prior to the 70D announcement, I had decided on getting an 85 b/c of the warranty (and at the time, supercharging enablement) vs. a 60 that easily could have handled 90% of my driving needs.�
Jul 19, 2015
dhanson865 It's been stated repeatedly that they are enabling the supercharging for CPOs. They weren't doing that for inventory cars but will for CPO.
An S40 that gets traded in goes through the transformation:
S40 -> S60 -> Supercharger enabled -> CPO�
Jul 19, 2015
Cyclone True, but note that now Tesla does list inventory S60s alongside the CPO S60s. As such, it is not yet guaranteed the inventory S60s will come with SpC enabled automatically. Personally, I think Tesla should do this to avoid the confusion, but I could see them going either way on it.�
Jul 19, 2015
ModelSFL I've seen almost all the inventory S60s with SC enabled and CPOs have been hit or miss.�
Jul 19, 2015
Wshowell I'll go out on a limb with a price prediction. By January 1, 2016 a CPO S60 with Pano, tech and leather and under 30k miles can be had for <$37.5k. The same S85 for <$42.4 and P85 <$47.5. They'll get snatched up quickly but that's where I see the price trends headed.�
Jul 19, 2015
ModelSFL How much do you believe AP materially increases those prices?�
Jul 19, 2015
Wshowell "A lot". I know that's not a fair answer but everyone will be chasing AP and that's what drives the price "demand" side of the equation. Pop on Craigslist for an example. Price out iPhones and compare the 6+ and 6 to the 5S/5c. These can all still be pruchased new from Apple too. They are fractional valuations versus their new retail costs. Everyone is chasing the 6 series models so they are offered up at prices very near the retail (new $650, used $550). The 5s and 5c can be had for @ $200 but they are $450 new. A model that isn't sold any longer like a 4 can be had for $100. The difference is both excess supply and underwhelming demand for the older models even though the differences aren't truly that large (with the AP being the one that arguably is revolutionary). If I had to put a value on AP, I'd say $6500-$8500 will be the Delta tween like kind vehicles with and without AP. That'd mean you can buy a fully loaded CPO P85 without AP or a CPO base S60 with AP in my opinion.�
Jul 19, 2015
ModelSFL Interesting observation. I would imagine it is also one of the top reasons why there is a sizable CPO market. Why else would anyone trade in a fairly new Tesla other than to get AP or perhaps a D. It will be interesting to see if the Model X will have a similar impact to the CPO market. If not, the next notable event might be in 2018 when the AP models start coming off lease.�
Jul 19, 2015
bonaire The CPO market will see some impact from the trade ins for X but i believe people are buying X as a 2nd car not to replace an existing S. The CPO list should grow when the three year leases are turned in. Until then, the more immediate trade ins will be those who want the 90D+L who still have their P85 and did't initially jump into a P85D. I wonder how many will go from P85D to P90DL.�
Jul 19, 2015
Cyclone While abything is possible and it would be a steal for people to get these prices on a 3-4 year old car, I do not think this is realistically going to be where the prices are in less than 6 months. Though if I'm wrong, I anticipate a second Model S joining our household.�
Jul 19, 2015
No2DinosaurFuel On the contrary, it is thr opposite. Every cpo i have seen save for a few had supercharging enabled. However a lot of thr inventory s60 did not list supercharging while other things were listed like some with air suspension and tech package, etc. If tesla's website is still selling the supercharging enabling, you can bet your ass these inventory s60 without supercharging list NOT have supercharging enabled. Tesla is in the business of making money so you know they will squeeze as much as they can.�
Jul 19, 2015
Buckeye2320 So out of the 20 Inventory S60's on the CPO Consolidator (18 in US CPO Section/1 in Canada/1 in Hidden Section), 15 have Super Charging enabled and 5 do not. Does not seem to matter where the car is as there is a S60 in Chicago that does not have Super Charging, but other in Chicago that do.�
Jul 19, 2015
ModelSFL 75% are enabled, those are good odds.�
Jul 19, 2015
Fiver I'm fairly certain that even if the inventory 60's don't list supercharging, they will have supercharging when you pick it up. It's silly for them to sell it otherwise.�
Jul 19, 2015
Las Vegas All have Supercharging?
A local Tesla Rep gave me the impression that all S60s sold by Tesla have supercharging - irrespective of how they are advertised or if they were originally sold without that capability. Apparently, they realized the lack of supercharging didn't make much sense b/c it was such a major disadvantage to not have such a critical feature. So all CPO/Inventory cars sold through them will have this feature enabled. It was a "software" update - no physical modifications made to the vehicle.
The iPhone price fluctuation/depreciation comparison tells me that such a system is not viable for such an expensive investment. It may be for those with flexible discretionary income but inevitably consumers just wont tolerate such depreciating values on such a large investment.
I hope Tesla makes their vehicles more scalable. Consumers cannot be expected to take such a heavy loss in such little time when investing $80k+ on a car. Such a system is just not feasible - at least not for the larger market share of consumers.
The bare bones/base of the car should be flexible enough for future modifications. I understand this can be a difficult task since technology changes so rapidly. But Tesla has the market cornered on Electric Cars. They should think ahead and set the standard. Get rid of the old business model. Set the stage for a new future. Lets put a nail in the ICE car coffin along with its business model.�
Jul 20, 2015
Jeffgtx on my 60 (inv car) and one i inquired about this weekend, they will add supercharging for the pre purchase price of $2000 if it is not listed. but it was not added for free.�
Jul 20, 2015
MsElectric I'm all for scalability and I hope battery upgrades and other hardware updates at a reasonable cost becomes the norm. But a car purchase is hardly ever an "investment." You are paying for the pleasure of owning a steeply depreciating asset to the tune of around $1,600 - $2,000 a month in the initial years.
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I would look at the resale values of the Mercedes S class for a good indication on where the Model S resale values will end up, sooner or later.�
Jul 20, 2015
Cyclone That is precisely what I was thinking of when making that statement. AutoTrader within 100 miles of Charlotte NC puts a Certified 2011 S-class in the $43k-$50k range, precisely where I feel it is more realistic to see a 2012 Model S in 6 months. So basically, about $6k above Wshowell's estimate.�
Jul 20, 2015
brantse Personally, I think Tesla is breaking new ground when it comes to reliability, which is going to have a huge impact on the long term resale values. At the moment, the jury is still out... I'm not aware of many high mileage MS's and what maintenance has been required. In many ways, electric vehicles obviously have a lot of significant advantages over ICE; but there is obviously one HUGE risk and it rhymes with flattery.
Tesla's lightning fast speed to improve on the current vehicle can only hurt legacy vehicles in terms of resale. This is always going to be an issue that upsets owners, but certainly doesn't appear to be something that's going to stop them from doing it in the future.�
Jul 20, 2015
No2DinosaurFuel I think the "breaking new grounds when it comes to reliability" is hurting resell values modestly. Keep in mind, Tesla can almost always replace the suspected parts. It's really the new features and upgrades that are hurting the resell value.
For instance:
1) S70 is now roughly the price of the S60 of the past. Meaning S60 are worth less
2) New Model S have Auto Pilot hardware that people can use later on. Old Model S doesn't.
3) New Model S have more sensors (part of the autopilot HW) which the old didn't have.
4) New Model S 85KWh has ability to upgrade battery. Old one maybe, but not offered right now.
So i would think the new features AND the more reliable parts are depressing the price of the older model.
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I guess I might be wrong in terms of seeing more S60 without Supercharging, but it seems like the ones with supercharging, they are tacking in the price of the supercharging already so it's not really a good deal when the S70 has the supercharging built in, more battery, and a better warranty (8 years/unlimited miles) for less. So hence why I didn't even considered the higher priced S60.�
Jul 20, 2015
ModelSFL I didn't realize AP has different sensor versions. Where did you read this?�
Jul 20, 2015
No2DinosaurFuel Didn't read, actually saw and demonstrated at the demo drive.
The older Model S (pre-auto pilot) does have proximity sensors so the car could not show you cars around you. The new Auto-pilot HW Model S has the proximity sensors.�
Jul 20, 2015
brianman My understanding is that there are 3 levels of technology here: (1) original Model S, (2) parking sensor suite, and (3) autopilot sensor suite.
(1) No sensors.
(2) Assists with parking only -- shows distance from stationary objects in color form at first, and then shows units when you get closer.
(3) Superset of (2) that also includes sensors that currently support TACC, blind spot warning, lane departure warning, forward collision warning, and emergency braking collision mitigation. "Promised" to support more features via OTA updates to vehicles containing this hardware.
I believe the first question quoted above is asking if there are different versions of (3). My understanding is "no" w/r/t customer vehicles, though I'm sure that Tesla has research underway with one or more additional versions for future release.
No2DF - Is your understanding different than this? If so, please elaborate.�
Jul 20, 2015
Cyclone My understanding is consistent with brianman's post�
Jul 20, 2015
No2DinosaurFuel Yup you got it right. There are no different 3) versions. Just more hardware compared to the original model s. If you paid for the auto pilot, tesla just turns on a software switch.�
Jul 20, 2015
mmd Edmunds' long term tests and Consumer Reports' own car saw several minor and major issues during their testing. Edmunds went as far as to say that they couldn't recommend the car. That was one reason why Tesla extended the warranty to 8 years, infinite miles last year. So far, Tesla and the early adopters have done a good job hiding many of these issues from new buyers. These many minor issues can be a problem for those who are just looking for a car for daily use. The early productions might have more of these annoyances.�
Jul 20, 2015
3mp_kwh I wouldn't. The buyback guarantee was based on something close to an S-class depreciation curve. Making money on a guarantee of at least that amount, was one of the best calls Tesla made. The cars still don't trade near it. Saying "sooner or later" otherwise doesn't really say much.�
Jul 20, 2015
No2DinosaurFuel I am not sure if it is the best call for Tesla. If you read this thread from the beginning or do some search, I can assure you tesla, for the most part, is losing money because of the policy of guaranteeing the price of their cars. As I have stated before, what tesla is doing is artificially controlling the depreciation rate. In the long run, this is definitely NOT sustainable. And we can already see the effects: Tons of CPO Model S priced higher then they should given the new stuff Tesla are releasing (Think new S70 vs the Inventory S60).�
Jul 20, 2015
dennisayre Reading this thread reminds me of reading a topic on Reddit I actually understand and realizing how quickly opinions start being taken as fact. The reality is often quite different.
If Tesla has been paid an "insurance premium" to cover the residual value above an S-class depreciation curve, well so far that bet is working out well. There is also the benefit of additional sales from nervous first adopters of this kind of technology. Can't say the same for the Chevy Volt which has depreciated worse than an S-class without the luxury appeal.
If Tesla is artificially controlling the prices of CPO's, then why are they selling several a day? I also don't believe Tesla has much of an issue holding onto those CPO's as demand for loaner vehicles is incredibly high. If you wanted to check this, try locating an actual CPO vehicle for inspection. You'll find how difficult it is to actually pin down. Tesla has the benefit of depreciating a somewhat productive asset which provides the type of customer service that allows them to hopefully create future sales. How many S85 owners drove a P85+ and decided to upgrade?
I don't get the way people are looking down at vehicles without auto-pilot, parking sensors and heaven forbid power folding mirrors. Those early VIN vehicles still have a subjective 95% of the features that Model S owners want and love. Based on where they price CPO's today, I would guess that the battery capacity relative to current technology along with milage/time will determine the vast majority of the depreciation. And yet with an 85 battery pack I can still travel with ease across the country using superchargers and it probably allows for daily travel of another subjective 95% of the population. I mean if you used up 250 miles a day you would be looking at 91k miles a year. I don't get all the fuss over having a 90 pack versus 85 either. If anything it's showing that advancement in battery tech will allows for a much more inexpensive battery swap in the future. How awesome is that?
At the end of the day I think this CPO program provided a few important attributes for Tesla. They finally established some used market pricing in an otherwise confusing and scary market for used buyers. It also helps regulate the flow of older models to perhaps lower the capital intensive nature of this business given their trade in volumes. And you introduce the cars to a whole new market of buyers who would love to buy the car at 30-45% discounts to "sticker" price.
For those that are waiting for massive depreciation in the used market (I'm sure a lot of short sellers of TSLA are), I suspect you will end up being disappointed. And more than likely Elon will keep giving us plenty of reasons to wait for the next great feature. But those great features are what creates the brand value behind Tesla that should help retain future values better than the Leaf or Volt. This seems similar to me as the used market that exists for Apple products versus HP or Lenovo. Having a vibrant resale market for products that consumers love creates a fairly inexpensive way to upgrade over time. People are assuming you'll see the same type of situation for the Model S versus other ICE vehicles when we already have plenty of evidence that values are holding up better than most had anticipated.�
Jul 20, 2015
MsElectric That's the direction they are going. Wait an year or two and see. My bet is we'll see Model S resale values around S Class retail values.
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I agree completely. Artificially controlling the resale value will never work and it's not sustainable. Ultimately the market sets the price and it's not in Tesla's interest to make up the difference. Car values should be based on what they are worth in the market. For example it's hard to imagine anyone buying those S60s priced in the late 70ks to late 80ks. Same for the P85+ vehicles in the 90s.�
Jul 20, 2015
mmd Now that the 70 kwh RWD is $70,000, I don't see why any CPO S60 can be worth more than $40k if it has 10k+ miles on it. Here is my reasoning:
A brand new model S 70kwh out the door with 0 miles & immaculate condition is worth only $60k due to tax credit and state rebates. Then, due to 70 kwh having AP, better build, better warranty, free supercharger etc., the CPO S60 should be another $10k lower than $60k, which brings it down to $50k. Then, depreciate it for age and mileage, and it should be no more than $40k. IMHO, It should really be $30k to $35K if the age or mileage is higher.�
Jul 20, 2015
smorgasbord The build quality and the fit and finish of later VINs is far better than the Sigs and early VINs, however.�
Jul 21, 2015
Cyclone Most states in the U.S. do not have incentives for the purchase of electric vehicles and even then, not everyone would qualify for it. Personally, I would be jumping up and down if NC offered incentives like CO does!�
Jul 21, 2015
ModelSFL
The assumption is the 60 kWh includes the supercharger as we have seen the majority do. The difference between the 60 kWh and 85 kWh battery was $7,000 w/ tire upgrade or $280 per 1 kWh. Therefore, $2800 for 10 kWh difference.
There is likely going to be two values if it is a Inv vs CPO model. From what I have seen most of the Inv still have the tax credit, TP (now in the premium package) and AP hardware The CPOs don't have the tax credit and aren't AP capable. It could be an easy argument that lack of AP hardware is more significant than $5,000 but I will use that value for now.
1. CPO 60 kWh
$73,000 [70 kWh w/Premium Package] - $2800 [-10 kWh] - $7500 [tax credit] $5,000 [no AP hardware] = $57,700 - miles ($1 per mile) - depreciation (1% per month) = Price
2. Inv 60 kWh
$75,500 [70 kWh /AP & Premium] - $2800 [-10 kWh] = $72,700 - miles ($1 per mile) - depreciation (1% per month) = Price�
Jul 21, 2015
MsElectric I think your logic is absolutely reasonable. This would mean CPO 60s should be in the 40s. Some of the S60 pricing is about the same or even more expensive than a nicely loaded 70 or 70D even. IMHO the cars that are a good buy as CPO are the P85s. Some of the S60s for sale seem to be overpriced by quite a margin.
�
Jul 21, 2015
PokerBroker The market will most definitely set the price as soon as Model X starts shipping or Tesla will find themselves sitting on 5,000 used Model S instead of 300. They are not going to be able to pump up prices or they will have boatloads of cars on their books. My checkbook is ready.�
Jul 21, 2015
MsElectric I have a feeling they are already sitting on 1,000-2,000+ Model S vehicles. I wonder if they can sell more if they clean up that ridiculous interface they have for finding a Model S. People might be waiting for a Model S with a certain color and option combinations and they might not be buying because the car is in the Tesla inventory and they have not listed that car yet because their interface is clunky and idiotic mess that lists cars at around 30 each by a certain geographic location. I bet most CPO car buyers don't know of Hank's wonderful interface. They should clean up the interface and list what they have so people looking to buy can find exactly what they are looking to buy. Mercedes for example lists about 500-600 S class vehicles (2013 and 2014) in their CPO program at a time.
In any case it is really telling that as soon as they price an S60 in the 40s it is gone while the rest that are overpriced just sit there. It indicates that's where the market is as @ModelSFL suggested. As overpriced as some of the other models are, the P85s seem to be absolutely reasonably priced. In fact if you are looking to buy an S60 or S85, it really makes sense to pay a bit more and go for a P85. 2013 P85s are available for the late 60s and 2014 P85s are available for the late 70s.�
Jul 21, 2015
mmd I think your 2 formulas are very good starting points. I forgot to list the battery pack difference.
But the new 70 kwh also comes with 8 years, infinite mile warranty, while the cpo cars only carry 4 year/50k miles warranty, right? I believe the extra warranty is also worth something around the cost of an extended warranty, which needs to be deducted in the formula.
Once you depreciate 1% per month and $1 per mile, the price should really be +/- $40k. But of course, some will pay more than that if they can't resist
�
Jul 21, 2015
brantse I think the market has a much steeper demand curve than most other vehicles, due to a large number of aspiring Model S owners. I know I'm in that camp. All the options, features, lack of miles in the world do not mean a thing to a purchaser who just flat out cannot afford the vehicle.�
Jul 21, 2015
MsElectric This is why I feel the market, not Tesla, will eventually set the price. @mmd brought up some good points and another point to consider in favor of the 70 is that the performance is better so that's also worth something. Basically if you are looking to buy a 60, based on all logical assumptions and considerations, the pricing for 60s should be in 40s. If it is not there, just wait a bit and I'm sure it will only be a matter of time. In a few months there will also be 70Ds available as inventory cars so for around what they want to charge for a CPO or inventory 60, you might be able to buy an inventory 70D with Autopilot, AWD, and a bunch of recent refinements.�
Jul 21, 2015
ModelSFL The price per kWh should have that baked in as the 60 kWh (125k / 8 year) and the 85 kWh (unlimited / 8 year) was already established.�
Jul 21, 2015
No2DinosaurFuel 1) Works well for early adopters and new owners NOT for Tesla. Read the comments on how Tesla are buying these back at a lower price than they are posting on the CPO website.
2) They reset the warranty on all CPO it will cost them more.
3) They also have to refurbish these cars and it will cost them more.
4) They have to pay for storage. So it will cost them more.
5) I can assure you most CPO cars are still overpriced. Check on how long some of these cars are still on the CPO website.
1) Not all cars removed from the EV-consolidator are sold. Some are just hidden and others are remove temporarily and put back.
2) Demands for the lower priced CPOs are high, not so much for the high priced CPOs because one can get a better deal by buying new tesla. Factor in tax credit and these CPOs now look not such a great deal.
3) The reason why you can't pin down the car is because they vary by location and can be moved. Moreover, tesla are more reluctant to let you inspect before they "refurbish" them to give to you. You might think it's a ****** car considering how long they been sitting outside in the environment.
4) S85 to P85+ upgrade? I don't have the number for that, but I do agree there were a lot of people doing S60,S85,P85 to S85D, P85D upgrades when tesla made the AWD announcement. Hence why you are seeing a lot of CPOs now.
The reason these are worth more is you have to look at the demographics of Tesla Model S buyers. They tend to be on the bleeding edge type of people. They will value those new features a lot more. In fact some are saying they wanted these luxury features on their old tesla because other luxury cars had them but tesla, at the time, didn't. Again why they are trading up and you seeing more CPOs. What you are describing is more of the common folks who car for a car just for the sake of a car. Now i am not saying ALL tesla buyers have this mindset, but a majority of them do, at least until the Model 3 comes out.
1) Confusing and scary market for used buyers? I think you mean Sellers.
2) Sure it might regulate the flow a slight bit because everyone thinks they can sell their car for high price and are willing to keep it longer.
3) You said it yourself! "given their trade in volumes"
4) I don't think it's 30-40% discount for the majority of the CPOs when you factor in the tax credit. Some are at that level, but most are still not.
1) I am not sure what you mean. Next great features help retain value for older cars without the next great feature? One using logic would think it will cause the opposite effect. Further depreciating values for the older cars.
2) There might be some truth when you said it can be fairly inexpensive way to upgrade over time. This is mainly due to the tax credit. Some people have been driving for free or close to free when they sold their Model S by private sales before the big AWD announcement. After the announcement? Not so much. We will have to see how much in the end it will cost to trade-up.�
Jul 21, 2015
HankLloydRight Likewise, the BMW-USA CPO site lists pretty much every used car (CPO or just "Preowned") for sale across all of their dealers. So there are thousands of cars listed. While the BMW interface could use a little improvment, it's actually really pretty good. I've bought two used cars using their CPO/Preowned site. Tesls should take a lesson from BMW (and/or EV-CPO�
Jul 21, 2015
No2DinosaurFuel The 4 years/50K miles applies to ALL tesla, new, CPOs, or inventory. This is your usual Bumper to bumper warranty. The 8 years/unlimited miles warranty is only the power train and battery warranty.�
Jul 21, 2015
MsElectric I still think Tesla should just give you a folly loaded P90DL and have you take over the design and implementation of their entire CPO (and Inventory?) interface. They can easily pay for your P90 by letting go of whoever they hired or contracted to design and manage the current mess they have -- as whatever they paid, they paid too much.
The person who signed off on the current Tesla CPO interface is clueless. As I've said many times, whoever designed the Tesla CPO interface had no inkling about the needs of someone looking to buy a CPO car. If I were looking for a CPO car, the geographic location is completely irrelevant to me and so are the silly stock photos of the cars, as presumably someone looking to buy a Model S already knows what one looks like. I'd want to see as much of an inventory as possible so I can find the right car, with the right options, at the right price. *cough* like EV-CPO�
Jul 21, 2015
HankLloydRight Even though it's a horrible design, it's actually well engineered (actually over-engineered, IMHO), so unless they did it in-house, I'm sure they paid more than $100k to have that developed (and it probable took months to do).
But yes, I'm sure if they had a better designed site that did much of what EV-CPO does, they would be able to sell A LOT more cars. Even by doing something as simple as "free shipping" for CPO or Inventory cars, A LOT of people be jumping to pay their current high/over-market prices. Any car, from any location for this price. Just eliminate the "location" aspect of it entirely, since people seemingly can't inspect the CPO cars prior to putting down a deposit or at delivery.�
Jul 21, 2015
Cowby
Waht a fantastic novel idea....and to make up for that, they could charge a $3-5K non-refundable deposit ( but make it 1 week transferable if the car they picked turned out not what they expected on delivery).�
Jul 21, 2015
BoerumHill I'm not sure those P85+'s in the 90s are overpriced. Most all of them are maxed out, MAYBE they won't have cold weather/dual chargers/RFS. That's 1K/2K/3K, so the list was $120-126K.
Start there and subtract time since build ($1K/month or even 1%/month) less mileage ($0.80-$1.00 per mile), and voila, most of the P85+'s are price appropriately.
As my target is a low mileage Q2/Q3 2014 P85+, I REALLY wish it were not so.�
Jul 21, 2015
MsElectric I realize some are maxed out but options are never worth used what they cost new. The rule of thumb generally is that options are worth about 50% or less when the car is used. I think the only good deals to be had for CPO cars now are the P85s. As I said earlier 2013 P85s are in the late 60s and 2014 P85s can be had for the late 70s. At those prices they are reasonable deals and make sense for someone looking to buy a used car to save some money.
The P85+ vehicles IMHO are horribly priced. They are too close to the price of an inventory P85D. When you can buy an inventory P85D for around $110K and receive about $10K in state incentives why pay 90-something for a P85+ that's really no faster than a P85. I know that Hank loves his P85+ low profile staggered tires but i never got the price justification for the plus version unless you happen to be a huge RWD or staggered wheel enthusiast. Personally I consider the plus package to me more of a liability than a benefit. I think they'll have to apply about $10K in price reductions to move those P85+ cars so if you are looking to buy one I suggest that you wait.�
Jul 21, 2015
HankLloydRight I got my P85+ as an Inventory car with 8k miles and was about 10 months old, so I got a real nice discount off of "new". Also, between the time my car was made, and when I bought it, the "list" price of the P85+ was about $10k higher. So depending on how you count, I got nearly a $30k discount from "new."
But if I were in the market now, with the same budget, I'd probably by a new 85D for about what I paid for the P85+. So yeah, I think the P85+'s are currently overpriced compared to what one can buy new.�
Jul 21, 2015
MsElectric By the way the following 2014 P85+ with 24,575 miles (VIN P35231) is $85,500. While the$90-something vehicles are overpriced this vehicle seems more or less reasonable. What type of pricing are you waiting for?
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/preowned/P35231
Tech Package
The Tech Package adds a host of features to an already advanced car.
- Onboard maps and navigation for North America with free updates for 7 years
- Daytime LED running lights
- LED cornering lights
- Automatic keyless entry
- Lighted door handles
- Electrochromatic heated side and rearview mirrors
- Power liftgate
- GPS enabled Homelink
- Memory seats, mirrors, and driver profile
- Blue Metallic Paint
- All Glass Panoramic Roof
- 21" Silver Turbine Wheels
- Black Nappa Leather Seats
- Piano Black D�cor
- White Alcantara Headliner
- Carbon Fiber Spoiler
- Tesla Red Brake Calipers
- Supercharger Enabled
- Dual Chargers
- Smart Air Suspension
- Ultra High Fidelity Sound
- Subzero Weather Package
- Premium Interior Lighting
- Performance Plus
�
Jul 21, 2015
ModelSFL There were some holes in my packaging and pricing. I didn't account that the left over TP package items got moved into the Premium package. I included them in below as most CPOs/Inv seem to include TP. I also had some bad math on the price per kWh. I corrected it below:
1. CPO 60 kWh
$73,000 [70 kWh w/Premium Package] - $2800 [-10 kWh] - $7500 [tax credit] $5,000 [no AP hardware] = $57,700 - miles ($1 per mile) - depreciation (1% per month) = Price
2. Inv 60 kWh
$75,500 [70 kWh /AP & Premium] - $2800 [-10 kWh] = $72,700 - miles ($1 per mile) - depreciation (1% per month) = Price
While I do believe there are a number of overpriced S60's on the CPO, this might be more inline with how Tesla is coming up with the CPO logic which might make a *little* more sense.�
Jul 21, 2015
MsElectric Or you can buy this P85+ from a Toyota dealer with no additional CPO warranty for $97,991. LOL. And they say Toyota does not sell premium EVs
I don't think that Toyota dealership has any idea how long they will have to wait to sell that car!
Oh and it is "$10,400 below NADA Retail." If you can't trust NADA who can you trust...?
http://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/628253501/overview/
- - - Updated - - -
It would still seem to suggest that the S60s should be sold in the $40K-something range.�
Jul 21, 2015
ModelSFL For sure for CPOs but the Inv might not make it there any time this year.�
Jul 21, 2015
MsElectric The only real value I see in the inventory S60s is Auto Pilot. Let's say that's worth $5K. So if I were advising a friend, the highest price I can justify for an inventory S60 is $65K. With incentives it comes down to about $55K. Otherwise it makes sense to buy a brand new 70.�
Jul 21, 2015
BoerumHill Not looking at mileage over 8K (and prefer under 5K) or build before Q2 (roughly 38XXX.) Given those metrics, I haven't spent a lot of time judging the pricing on the mid- and low-priced P85+ listings as they're not in my wheelhouse.
FWIW, I care not a wit about autopilot and actually prefer RWD over AWD. I thought long and hard about a new 85D, and after scores (hundreds?) of hours of research, decided I would prefer a CPO performance / performance plus version.�
Jul 21, 2015
BoerumHill So I'm probably looking at this through a *somewhat* unique prism, but the low mileage is important to me (as is build date within the last 15 months.) My thinking is I'd rather spend an extra $5-10K to get a CPO in pristine shape, and the odds having little/no paint defects decrease significantly above 10-20K miles. I would actually expand my artificial build date cutoff if it was low mileage. For instance, this P85+ was a December 2013 build. Very low miles, and every single option except (oddly) it has a body color roof.
85 kWh Performance Model S P26370 | Tesla Motors
That's a great deal, just wish it had the pano. Plus it will cost me around $2K to bring it here. Obviously I'm not the typical "great deal it was under $60K!" buyer, but rather my definition is "exactly what I was looking for at a fair price." I know I'm setting myself up to pay a premium relative to other CPO listings, and that's OK. The most important thing is to get a great car that is exactly what I want. i've waited a long time to reward myself with this purchase.
UNRELATED ASIDE...or maybe not - last night I booked four tickets for our family vacation. I have never in my life paid full price for an upgrade. I've accepted them as comp for getting bumped, I've "purchased" an upgrade at a steep discount with miles, I've paid a nominal fee ($25-50) at the gate to move up....but retail is for suckers. And last night I stared at my computer screen for 10 minutes before clicking that non-refundable upgrade button. It was like piling money on the table and lighting it on fire. For what? So we only have to share the bathroom with four other people? To be in the extra leg room front row? To save a couple seconds getting onto and off from the plane? A free drink and peanuts? That's worth how much? It's not that much of a hardship to fly coach. Except I've been flying discount fares for 35 years, and I'm kind of tired of it. So what the heck, I can afford it, not like I'm postponing retirement or sending the kid to community college, splurge once in awhile for a change. So I did.
This car, even at CPO prices, is a major splurge in my life. I'm not really interested in a rock bottom deal. I want EXACTLY what I want, with no compromises - or at least compromises (gently used, low mileage) I can live with. But that's just me, it's only applicable to me and my situation, and I think there have been some great points made in this thread about what these CPO listings maybe should or may one day be priced.
ETA - FTR, those brats are flying economy on the return leg. I haven't completely lost my mind.�
Jul 21, 2015
HankLloydRight Unrelated aside to your unrelated aside.. when I was traveling for work every week (ages ago), I once got bumped up to first class at the last minute, while my boss didn't. He boarded early but I was running really late, I was the last one to board. I saw him sitting 3 rows back in coach, while I just turned and sat in Row 2. The look on his face was priceless.�
Jul 21, 2015
mmd How did the 10 kwh difference come down to only $2800? And then, how is the difference in powertrain warranty baked into this $2800? A 4 year additional battery/driveunit warranty is pretty big for an used car. A 15 kwh pack difference is $10k additional (70 kwh vs. 85 kwh) with no difference in warranty. So, 10 kwh should really be more like $6666 price difference, no?
The typical state rebate is also missing here.�
Jul 21, 2015
BoerumHill Back in my road warrior days (it was long ago but in the same galaxy), I frequently bumped - Northwest had. $25 @ the gate policy to move up, no-brainer. But I took it too far when I bumped myself returning from a National conference at Kiawah. Virtually everyone at the conference had to route through Atlanta. I had to sit there and endure scornful WTH looks from about 60 people from other offices in the firm as they trundled past. I was pretty junior at the time & took no joy in it.
My partner heard about it from him his peers. Which translated meant I heard about it for months.�
Jul 21, 2015
ModelSFL The delta between the 60 kWh and 85 kWh was 8k - 1k (tire upgrade) = $7000 / 25 kWh = $280 kWh.
I don't disagree that it is low but that same warranty was in place when that same gap was in place before the 70 kWh battery came out.�
Jul 21, 2015
mmd OK, it makes sense that way.
Using the difference between 70 kwh and 85 kwh RWD yields a $666/kwh price though. The two are identical in almost all other aspects. Even 0-60 is almost same (5.5 secs vs. 5.4 secs). Top speed is same: 140 mph. Only hp is a bit more for 85 kwh. Using $280/kwh should make the 85 kwh RWD only $5k more than 70 kwh RWD. Seems the 85 kwh RWD is now overpriced compared to 70 kwh RWD�
Jul 21, 2015
BoerumHill The "typical state rebate" is in 8 states - and neither of the two states I own property.
But overall I really like the approach ModelSFL is using.�
Jul 21, 2015
ModelSFL It does seem like the 70 kWh is the best value at this time. Same warranty as well. Seems like the 90 kWh would have a better shot at justifying the additional 10k. At least that would be $500 per kWh.�
Jul 21, 2015
MsElectric Selling the 85 Kwh car and a 90Kwh car makes absolutely no sense. Maybe they are constrained with 90 Kwh packs at the moment. It makes all the sense to discontinue the 85kwh pack and offer only the 70 and 90 kwh packs. I agree that after they replaced the 60 with the 70 they need to do something similar to maintain the value of the upper tier battery pack. A 20Kwh difference for $10K so you get a 90Kwh pack makes a lot more sense than paying $10K for only 15Kwh more with the existing 85kwh pack.�
Jul 21, 2015
dennisayre There are probably more variables than you see on the surface other than 70, 85, and 90 kWh packs on a straight forward demand and supply curve. Every percent or two of gross margins matters for Tesla and so letting customers buy tomorrows standard battery pack for a higher cost per kWh perhaps increases margins a bit while the technology continues to improve to allow for a standard 90 kWh pack. I don't think people who were on the fence about a Tesla are suddenly going to pull the trigger because of an additional 5 KWh of storage capacity. So Tesla doesn't really need to be supply constrained to do this, but rather they are showing improvements in the battery technology that has been stagnant for years. And they get performance and range on par with million dollar super cars with an upgraded P85D which draws more attention to the advantages of electric cars. After all, the mission of Tesla is to shift people towards electric by showing how much better it can be.
Also I think it is a bit like the option of a Tall, Grande or Venti Starbucks coffee. When compared to the price on the Tall, it makes sense to go Venti. But then you just consume a ton of calories and it probably costs more to burn it off later in the day. So maybe Grande is just right for most people. There is some psychological pricing that goes on to influence buyer decisions beyond what makes financial sense sometimes. I think the 70/85/90 menu for Tesla owners is just a variation of that. We'll never really know all the cool battery advancements and supply issues that control that other than knowing it seems to be progressing near the 5-7% area that Elon has predicted for some time now.�
Jul 21, 2015
spentan Picked up the CPO Sig P85 today. It really is beautiful.
�
Jul 21, 2015
Cyclone That does look gorgeous spentan! Congrats!�
Jul 21, 2015
BoerumHill Congrats, spentan! She is a beauty.�
Jul 22, 2015
TomServo Juts one word - daum....
looking forward to to your comments on the state/condition of this CPO. I'm excited for you and jealous all at the same time.�
Jul 22, 2015
jtpassat That is a great shade of red!!�
Jul 22, 2015
AMPd I love my blue, but the sig red will always be my favorite color. Looks so good! Especially with the grey wheels�
Jul 22, 2015
dusterbuster I just received pics of the car from my Tesla delivery specialist, and it turns out the car comes with tan leather interior (instead of textile), so that was a nice surprise! How often does the actual car differ from the listed CPO specs? I also noticed from the pics that the car has the parcel shelf (which also wasn't listed in the options).�
Jul 22, 2015
Cyclone Often, sadly. I got dual chargers, Drucifer got dual chargers and alcantara, someone else (forgot which poster) got a P85 when CPO was S85, someone else ordered P85 and got P85+.
I also got a parcel shelf. It is still (to my knowledge) unknown whether this is because the previous owner bought (or was gifted) a parcel shelf and it was left with the car, or Tesla included one for free because all new cars come with it standard.�
Jul 22, 2015
mmd It is a bit puzzling why Tesla would undersell like this. I can't help suspecting, that it is to create an illusion of higher resale value on their CPO site. It has obvious implications on their RVG liability.�
Jul 22, 2015
SmartElectric I specifically asked for it on my CPO S85 when I did a walk around of the car the day after I put down my deposit, and they included one when we picked it up three long weeks later.�
Jul 22, 2015
HankLloydRight Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice, what can equally be attributed to stupidity. (paraphrasing).
IOW, I'm sure it's not intentional, but rather, just lazy miscoding on the options list.�
Jul 22, 2015
Cyclone One theory offered up is that Tesla is building the CPO options list based on the original MyTesla order configuration of the vehicle as the data source. Recall that new orders get a grace period to make changes and even after that, some things can retrofitted/added onto the car. It is quite possible they are not using the "as delivered" option list of the prior owner, but the "as originally ordered" option list. Still surprised they wouldn't build a new options list at intake of the car in the CPO process, but as Hank said, this could be the lazy part.�
Jul 22, 2015
dusterbuster When I spoke with my delivery specialist this afternoon, I asked about what work was done on the car as part of the conditioning process. In addition to mentioning a few minor repairs, the specialist also said that they replaced the "missing" rear shelf. Not sure if that means any CPO car without the rear shelf is considered to be "missing" the rear shelf, or whether this particular car as originally ordered was actually supposed to have the rear parcel. My guess is it's the former.
The other thing I learned is that there is no delivery fee to have the car shipped to another service center within the same state, which means there's no delivery fee to have the car delivered to the LA service center rather than Fremont, CA (I previously had switched delivery from LA to Fremont because the local store rep in Santa Monica mistakenly said there would be a delivery fee if I took delivery anywhere other than Fremont, which is where the car is currently located).�
Jul 22, 2015
freeewilly Where did you hear it from? I'm interested about a CPO car in Fremont, CA, the Brea, CA store rep told me it will cost $500 to deliver to LA. I'm debating to fly up there and drive it down myself, and take the opportunely to visit the Fremont factory.�
Jul 22, 2015
dusterbuster This is what the assigned delivery specialist in Fremont told me when I was making plans to arrange for delivery next week at Fremont. He asked if I was planning to take the factory tour and if that was the reason why I was taking delivery in Fremont, and then said they are not doing factory tours next week, so if that was the only reason for doing delivery in Fremont, I could just take delivery in SoCal. He said they do charge $500 to ship the car out of region, so for example from Seattle to Fremont. However, he said that there is no delivery fee for shipping within California, and that what I had previously heard from the Santa Monica store was incorrect (that person said there would be a delivery fee of around $750 to have the car delivered to LA, which is why I originally changed delivery to Fremont). I'm supposed to hear from a local delivery specialist, hopefully tomorrow, so I'll confirm with him or her when I speak with them.�
Jul 23, 2015
brantse Another barebones S60 http://www.teslamotors.com/models/preowned/p10240. I think the price on these are creeping up, as they continue to sell very quickly.�
Jul 23, 2015
No2DinosaurFuel Air suspension, Wood Decor, Blue color. This is better than some other S60 at lower price. So not really bare bone.�
Jul 23, 2015
clarkbariowa
Solid Black P85 popped in at $66,500. Audio, SAS, SC, dual charger ... was about to show my wife.. maybe 15 mins later - and it disappeared. Any legitimately optioned P85 ($65K or $66K) that hits (especially with 21s) lasts less than 4 hours. Blue one went two days ago.
that leaves a majority of the ones I am looking at 69,xxx. Going Saturday to the Highland Park, IL store to test drive and most likely pulling the trigger :biggrin:�
Jul 23, 2015
Skotty My quick thoughts. S60s seem way overpriced. However, I definitely see some P85s and a few S85s that are tempting.�
Jul 23, 2015
MsElectric We just discussed this a few pages ago... They are definitely overpriced and some of them need to be priced in the 40s to make any sense.
The best values on CPO are the P85s. If you are looking to buy a CPO 60, in some cases you can pay less by buying a brand new 70 with autopilot and all the improvements... If you don't like the pricing, just wait and they will come down.�
Jul 23, 2015
tkizzy Considering getting a second Model S in our household, this time maybe a CPO and a P85... wish there was a way to sort by interior options...it seems most of the cars are light interiors and headliners when black on black is the way to go IMO.�
Jul 23, 2015
1208 Question is then, as more model s' prices come down to that of the Model 3, would you choose 2nd hand S or brand new 3 in the future?�
Jul 23, 2015
MsElectric Nothing new in the car business. For the cost of a brand new C Class, you can buy a 3-4 year old Mercedes S class. Same will happen with the Model S. With a brand new car you will get all the latest Autopilot sensors and other enhancements and at the end of the day some really prefer buying a brand new car. A 4 year old Model S that sold new for $100K should be in the 35-early 40K range.�
Jul 23, 2015
HankLloydRight I think black headliners is a fairly recent addition/option, so I'd guess that most CPOs are tan alcantara headliners.�
Jul 23, 2015
Father Bill Mine was Tan Textile, S85 built 12/13
Peace,
Father Bill�
Jul 23, 2015
brianman Cream, not Tan.
More specifically, it pretty much matches the Sig white interior not the tan interior.�
Jul 23, 2015
HankLloydRight Ok, ok, whatever. I should have just said "NOT BLACK".�
Jul 23, 2015
tga That's the exact config I'm looking for. I was really tempted to grab it, but it would cost me an extra $4k in tax, vs waiting until moving to NH in a few months.�
Jul 23, 2015
TomServo I have no independent proof but I reached out to my local Store/SC over in STL last week and asked some questions re a CPO purchased and I mentioned I was looking at buying an S85 with some specific options/mileage/price and within 30 minutes I received 2 "Tesla Invoices" on two CPO cars that were not and still not listed on the CPO web site. BTW my price point was "low sixties" and these two S85 were actually in the "high fifties" which included a $500 shipping fee.
So I believe Tesla Stores have access to cars that have not been officially listed on the CPO site. Has anyone else come across this?
So by actually walking into a store they may have cars closer to your price point not on the CPO site.�
Jul 23, 2015
ModelSFL Yup, I was able to get inv 70Ds from the rep. There have never been 70s listed.�
Jul 23, 2015
MsElectric It would totally make sense as they undoubtedly have many more cars available than what they list. Maybe they list on the CPO Web site what they are not able to sell, judging by some of the prices
I wish they'd just go ahead and list everything they have and be done with it so everyone will have access to the same inventory.�
Jul 23, 2015
Cyclone Yes, the full list of vehicles is available on the back-end system as opposed to the website running on the front-end system. Prior to the website launch, I was given a couple listings and spec-sheets of CPO cars.�
Jul 23, 2015
MsElectric Another P85D for sale for $103,900.
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/preowned/P68877
Not badly optioned but missing Sound.
Tech Package with Autopilot
The Tech Package adds Autopilot convenience features and more to an already advanced car.
Autopilot features are made available through progressive software updates. Lane keeping and self-parking updates will be available soon.
- Traffic-aware cruise control
- Lane keeping with automatic steering
- Self-parking
- LED fog and cornering lights with automatic high beams
- Automatic keyless entry
- Lighted door handles
- Power liftgate
- Electrochromatic mirrors
- Power folding, heated side mirrors with memory
- GPS enabled Homelink
- All-Wheel Drive Dual Motor
- Grey Metallic Paint
- Body Color Roof
- 21" Silver Turbine Wheels
- Black Next Generation Seats
- Carbon Fiber D�cor
- Black Alcantara Headliner
- Tesla Red Brake Calipers
- Supercharger Enabled
- Dual Chargers
- Smart Air Suspension
- - - Updated - - -
Just realized it is also missing the pano roof...�
Jul 23, 2015
brantse �
Jul 23, 2015
spentan Thanks. Pity it doesn't have Autopilot, otherwise I'd consider getting rid of my P85D for it.
I have to say, for a vehicle that has 41k+ miles, it literally looks brand new. The interior and exterior have been detailed so well, that it is no less than perfect.�
Jul 23, 2015
brianman Fair to whom?�
Jul 23, 2015
brantse I suppose to all the other people who are staring at their computer all day pressing F5. Like I say, it's a very odd way to sell cars. I'm trying to not be in a rush though, as the prices have to come down, eventually.�
Jul 23, 2015
MsElectric They have offered CPO cars (that are not on the CPO Web site) to other TMC members here so it seems to be unfair to Brantse that his request for whatever else they have has been denied while other people have been offered such vehicles. Like I said earlier I think they should just list everything they have on the CPO site, as that's what's most fait to everyone.�
Jul 23, 2015
BoerumHill Great to read this. Pretty special having a Sig Red, and fairly priced to boot.�
Jul 24, 2015
ModelSFL Interesting, what did you find for when vechicles are removed?�
Jul 24, 2015
abasile If you can wait until January or so, that could turn out to be ideal. Generally, used vehicle prices show very clear seasonal trends. Quite often, depreciation rates seem to peak in late autumn or so. In spring and early summer, the trend reverses and prices can even rebound some. Tesla vehicles being anything but "ordinary", it's hard to say what the future holds. But I'd feel pretty good about being in the market for a used vehicle in the dead of winter. On the other hand, if I were ready to make a purchase now, in July, I don't think I'd want to force myself to wait six months. Edit: I do, however, think it's worth waiting for the first Model X deliveries to occur.�
Jul 24, 2015
SmartElectric FYI, the terms of use on the CPO site built by Hank expressly state not to take data from it and post it elsewhere...
Given how Hank has generously provided this application to the community, please respect those provisions.
You may want to just ask Hank first what he'd be ok with you posting.
- - - Updated - - -
That's how I felt. Then I just couldn't wait any longer, glad I did, we've had a fun summer with our CPO S85 and already done a number of supercharged road trips. YOLO�
Jul 24, 2015
HankLloydRight As long as it's the "free" data level and posted ONLY to TMC, I'm ok with it. It's the subscription levels I don't want distributed without prior consent.�
Jul 24, 2015
brantse Sorry about that. Technically, I used "historical" data to pull the dates that each of these were added to the website. No sweat to me if you want me to delete my post.�
Jul 25, 2015
dalamchops how is everyone's range on their CPO?? My suspicion is that Tesla resets the battery to its default rated range value and itself slowly recalibrate itself back to its actual available capacity. I've gone from 270mi when i first received it down to 253mi.�
Jul 25, 2015
SmartElectric My CPO was delivered with a half charge, and we did the orientation attached to a supercharger in the service center, bringing the car up to almost full before we left.
We did 3000 km in a few weeks with a number of 100% 'trip' charges, and I can confirm the battery range is slightly better than the average of the cars listed in the various surveys here and elsewhere.
Very pleased with my CPO, it's a dream to drive.�
Jul 25, 2015
Cyclone My car had 31k on the odo and I'd 239 mi at 90% during that first week. Just an hour ago I did a 100% charge after 3k miles of driving around 40-70% and got 260 miles at 100%. I'm happy and that is just fine of a degradation level in my opinion.�
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