May 12, 2014
CalDreamin Outstanding job! Thank you so much for doing this.�
May 12, 2014
dsm363 Awesome news and nice work!�
May 12, 2014
dsm363 That means it is very likely to not make it this session, right? I understood the session was almost up.�
May 12, 2014
bluefuego This has been a huge effort by reps from tesla and Missouri owners and a few Illinois owners too! I'm actually pretty proud of ourselves right now.
The current session ends Friday. My understand is that the house leader will ask the senate to concede from their position and it may go to conference. But so far so good.�
May 12, 2014
AlMc Nicely done. Thanks to all 'Show me State' owners and the people who came down from Illinois.�
May 12, 2014
GasDoc I see from the icons that you are attending TMC Live 14. Let me be the first to offer to buy you a drink there!!! Strong work!�
May 12, 2014
chickensevil I heard that going to conference is not such a good thing. If it goes to conference I thought someone was saying that it gets stacked 5 senate and 3 reps, and they will likely push people who were already in favor of the bill in the first place to go there and decide its fate... which could be very bad for Tesla.�
May 12, 2014
bluefuego Yes, I am not exactly sure how all of this works. Not much in the way if civics/government classes at my parochial school. :-/
Currently sitting in the floor of the house.�
May 12, 2014
bluefuego Just spoke with another rep. He explained that some language is being rewritten because Emerald, a Missouri company, follows a similar model and they don't want to interfere with them. (Apparently the state of Missouri is heavily invested in them)
Sorry I'm probably just babbling now (problem with trying to communicate the blow by blow as it happens via iPhone). Will be back of I have anything more meaningful.�
May 12, 2014
RobStark Common sense tells you that is incorrect as that would make the lower house irrelevant. It is 5 members from each branch.
http://www.house.mo.gov/content.aspx?info=/info/glossary.htm#Conference Committee�
May 12, 2014
GoBlue88 Hilarious. So the idiots who inserted that language into the bill didn't realize or forgot that there is a DTC electric delivery van maker right in their own state.
Emerald Automotive: Location�
May 12, 2014
RobStark Funny Emerald Automotive is a UK based company specializing in electric commercial vans that was purchased by China's Geely. Same people that own Volvo.
No interest in the interest of a genuine American company.�
May 12, 2014
qwk This is the problem with making laws according to the bribes the politician gets. Laws end up making no sense, and then you get pure chaos. It's time to hold these corrupt clowns accountable.�
May 12, 2014
RobStark If Missouri tightens the franchise dealership laws and makes an exception for a Chinese company manufacturing in Missouri but not for a California company then this would be the perfect case to take to the SCOTUS under Commerce Clause.�
May 12, 2014
Golden Sun I am wondering if victory is at hand, and we can all rest easy, or if the Governor needs to hear from people.
A petition to the Governor has been put on change.org, and you don't have to be a resident of MO to sign this petition.
https://www.change.org/petitions/missouri-governor-vote-no-on-hb-1124-the-anti-tesla-bill#intro�
May 12, 2014
Dutchie Signed�
May 12, 2014
dhrivnak Signed as well.�
May 12, 2014
Merrill Signed�
May 12, 2014
Dutchie Thanks for signing our petition, "Missouri Governor: Vote no on HB 1124, the anti-Tesla Bill."
Can you help this petition win by asking your friends to sign too? It's easy to share with your friends on Facebook - just click here to share the petition on Facebook.
There's also a sample email below that you can forward to your friends.
Thanks again -- together we're making change happen,
Made in St Louis
---------
Note to forward to your friends:
Hi!
I just signed the petition "Missouri Governor: Vote no on HB 1124, the anti-Tesla Bill" on Change.org.
It's important. Will you sign it too? Here's the link:
http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/missouri-governor-vote-no-on-hb-1124-the-anti-tesla-bill?recruiter=93880644&utm_campaign=signature_receipt&utm_medium=email&utm_source=share_petition
Thanks!�
May 12, 2014
skdave Signed�
May 12, 2014
RubberToe Signed.�
May 12, 2014
Clprenz Missouri House leader not fond of Tesla limits - Yahoo Finance�
May 12, 2014
RobStark Shout out to Republican Majority Leader John Diehl for being philosophically consistent.
Boo to rent seekers and their minions.
Boo to Democratic Gov Jay Dixon for remaining silent to curry favor with franchised dealers and the public.
And letting John Diehl carry the water.�
May 12, 2014
Cosmacelf That's great! Hopefully the bill doesn't in fact make it into law...
Anyone know how well the state capital rally went today?�
May 12, 2014
TexasEV Governors don't vote on bills. They can veto bills that are passed by a legislature.�
May 12, 2014
FlasherZ Hi all,
Now that we're all back from the day's events, we can give you a better update. As it exists, the language in HB 1124 is likely dead. The co-sponsor of the bill (Rep. English) told us that he was very unhappy about the substitute language. That's the good news.
The bad news is that a reporter overheard the lobbyists for MADA at lunch talking about at least two other bills where they wanted to use the same tactics to attach the issue before the end of the week. So certainly it's not over, but at least we generated TREMENDOUS awareness among the legislators. One legislator came up to me and said "my God, do you realize how much phone traffic you've all generated with this issue?" He told me that every dealership in the state is calling every legislative office to scream the same BS lines about "consumer protection", etc., but they are also aware that most of this noise is anti-competitive tactic and that their actual voters are NOT screaming for dealerships to be the only model.
We stand ready in case we see the same language being attached, and several of the St. Louis Tesla Enthusiasts' group sit in districts that are key, including majority and minority leaders in the House. Members of the St. Louis Tesla Enthusiasts met 1:1 with their legislators while the Illinois guys held the fort outside with the cars.
We had 8 cars parked right at the front lawn of the Capitol building, and there were a total of 14 Model S's there, and 2 Volts. A total of 23 or 25 people showed up. As usual, our enthusiasm was occasionally mistaken as working for Tesla.
A gem of a picture from one of our members:
�
May 12, 2014
Krugerrand Hmm...one of every color almost in that photo. Cool!
Great work by all involved!�
May 12, 2014
AlMc Nice. Thanks to all and great picture. Just keep starring at the SigRed..but I digress.....Keep up the good work. Do you have people that will tip you off to last minute bill attachments? Also, there was some mention up thread that they may be trying to even add additional language to 'grandfather' in a local manufacturer of electric vans/trucks that is actually Chinese owned while blocking American owned TM.�
May 12, 2014
FlasherZ There were some other conversations in the mix, the Farm Equipment Manufacturers' Association was noted as an ally, considering that some of their equipment may be considered "Motor Vehicles" in the language.
The Sig Red is my car. We had one of every color there except pearl white and gray - they were the only colors missing. That picture shows only 5, but we had 8 in front of the Capitol all lined up, and Tesla was giving test rides and drives.
Here's one from someone on twitter:
...and the staging area with all of the Model S cars and the Volts:
�
May 12, 2014
Bradleybang Great job everyone who attended. Keep up the good fight. Should we group fund a donation to John Diehl to show our support?�
May 12, 2014
Doug_G What this tells me is that this fight is on the front lines for the whole country. NADA is obviously going to try these tactics in every state of the union - and a successful sneak attack here would really have emboldened them. Still might. Everyone needs to be extremely vigilant in every state.
Remember: this isn't about consumer protection, or consumer choice. The dealerships only want to protect dealerships. They don't want a world with efficient, low carbon electric vehicles. Their business model isn't selling vehicles, it's servicing maintenance-heavy ICE cars. This isn't just about Tesla's sales models, their real goal is to stop electric vehicles in their tracks. I've run into too many dealers who are actively hostile to electric cars. They don't care that we need to transition to sustainable transport to protect the environment, preserve precious natural resources, and the economy. They just want to make money now and to heck with the future.�
May 12, 2014
SCW-Greg Right on! Way to organize and move quickly.
Don't let up though, don't be surprised about a second push with different title and language.
And Doug is right, every state is likely being set up right now. Each of us needs to make an effort to check on the bill cue. Likely every week or two.�
May 13, 2014
Tasmanian Devil Missouri House leader not fond of Tesla limits - Yahoo Finance
Sounds good. Reasonable men I suppose.�
May 13, 2014
jthompson Thank you guys (and the other Missouri Tesla owners who met with their representatives) for doing what you did!
And thanks to all the Owners who showed up at the State Capital with their Teslas!!!�
May 13, 2014
Pollux Signed.�
May 13, 2014
ggies07 signed and I love seeing all this hard work from others. It really is going to be the "people" of the country that will change things, not this president or the next.�
May 13, 2014
Skotty Not many from KC there (I might have been the only one -- correct me if wrong) but I think most KC owners are actually on the Kansas side and don't have Missouri representatives they can talk to. Still, if this ever happens again, I would love to see a few more KC folks there. St. Louis folks were clearly there in force. A few others showed up from other areas.
A big thanks to all in attendance, and especially those who helped to organize everything and give people direction on what to do.�
May 13, 2014
FlasherZ It would not have been possible without all the help of many people.
First and foremost, it is the presence of everyone that is what makes the statement. One legislator told me that "I told Tesla if they want to make a statement, bring the cars to the Capitol," before looking across the 8 in front, then saying "this is a strong statement". When I told him there were nearly as many more - and that they were privately owned cars - 2 blocks away, he was floored. So most of the thanks goes to all the men and women who sacrificed their time and perhaps a vacation day to attend -- even those Volt owners, who came out to support us!
Then, by and far, most of the logistics of yesterday was handled by Liz G and her husband Brian. She opened her home to the small gathering to collect in the morning (and top off with a charge), and for a quick dinner in the evening while we charged up to get home. She was a primary contact point with Tesla, and did all sorts of communicating to try and get some energy going in the media.
Tesla, of course, came in to provide a couple of briefings to us on the status of the process and where things stood.
A really unflattering image, but here is a photo of me talking with Rep. English, the co-sponsor of HB1124 (but not a sponsor of the amended Senate language):
- - - Updated - - -
Later in the afternoon, a couple from KC did arrive with a Model S to show support... so you weren't the only one! But a big thank you to you, too, for making the trek and standing to support Tesla. If you ever find yourself on the opposite side of the state, let us know, you're always welcome.
- - - Updated - - -
Finally, these are the bills we're watching throughout the week:
Missouri generally requires that amendments only be attached to "relevant" and "related" bills... of course, HB 1124 was about All-Terrain Vehicles, so the bar to "relevant" is pretty low here.
That quote pulled from PoliticMO:
Tesla, Missouri Auto Dealers begin late battle over state franchise law | PoliticMo
- - - Updated - - -
And finally, one more... a press release from legislators' offices. We all met to thank Rep. Kelly for his leadership on this issue as the House session warmed up:
Cox, Kelly Announce Bipartisan Opposition to Anti-Free Market, Anti-Consumer Auto Dealer Legislation
Rep. English stood up and recognized Tesla and the presence of 20+ Tesla owners at the opening of the session.�
May 13, 2014
efusco is there any way to monitor the status of this in real time? How do we know if/when it will come to a vote or go to committee or back to the senate? Is Tesla on site looking at things? I'm nervous Nellie with this thing.�
May 13, 2014
wycolo Mad Hatter: "Up is Down, No-Franchise is Franchise".
"This is a strong statement": Amazing what the threat of a motorcade engenders in the heart of a politician! With the pano roof open two* can sit on the roof and wave to pedestrians - grist for the evening news!!
* well maybe ONE.
--�
May 13, 2014
FlasherZ Tesla has hired additional lobbyists last week and has corporate presence in the Capitol; they're watching the developments. They have in their pockets our direct contact information and they have the ability to reach us so that we can mobilize owners as required. We'll obviously reach out as we need to.�
May 13, 2014
evme I don't know about real time, but they do have websites:
House:
Missouri House of Representatives
Senate:
Missouri State Senate
They have daily schedules and activity information. The house seems to be somewhat more transparent then the senate. When I was researching who made the substitutions, I only found out by going through the senate journals manually. The house seems to be more transparent in who makes what amendment/change on their website.�
May 13, 2014
chickensevil Thank you to everyone who sacrificed their time and efforts to support this. We can win this one state at a time
As I said before (I think here), this really shows how NADA is stepping up and wising up to Tesla. I would say at this point, and new state to come up in this fight will attempt to use the same/similar language which has the potential to completely lock Tesla out.
As a side note:
I was talking to a friend of mine and he was pondering that while all of the money chains and support leads back to NADA right now... does anyone think that there is someone else/some other group that is actively trying to push this? I mean, we have all written off NADA as a culprit, but is there someone else? I and he were just baffled that as of yet, it does not seem to highlight other involvement... but it is not just the dealers who have something to lose here.�
May 13, 2014
dhrivnak We can also likely make a difference by signing the various links already listed to let Missouri know that we the people are watching and noticing. I am sure out of state comments are weighted less but we should make up for it with quantity.�
May 13, 2014
FlasherZ All signs point to the dealers' lobby - they're the greatest and most powerful because of the local sales tax impact that they have. It's a great conversation to have, though, because it really crosses party boundaries. There are very few consumers who truly support the dealership model, and a good number of them work for a dealership and have been scared by the "all dealers will close" language the lobby is using. So you really can turn this into a "special industry group" argument rather than a consumer argument.
Any other interests are much smaller by comparison (in terms of lobbying power). I saw someone jokingly tweet that the dealer's lobby should require a gun to be distributed with every car, so that the NRA could get behind them too.�
May 13, 2014
bonnie I'm out of state and my comments may be weighted less by politicians - but those same comments have not been weighted less by my sister and her family in Missouri. They are not Tesla owners, but they are outraged. As small business owners, they're making a point to let everyone know what is going on and what politicians are behind it.
The politicians who ignore the out of state comments might want to think twice ... we know people.
�
May 13, 2014
rolosrevenge Has anyone thought about protesting dealerships who are financial backers of NADA? Hard to sell a car when nicer cars with protesters are at the gates.�
May 13, 2014
Merrill For me this would not be a positive position for Tesla and would not set well with the general public.�
May 13, 2014
chickensevil I mean, I knew they had clout... but I didn't realize it was that vast. For local economy I would guess them and maybe housing (Real Estate Agents) would be the two largest contributors to the government in the form of taxes. But I guess I just didn't realize the amount of power they really had... Dealers have been so ingrained into our society that until Tesla came along I don't think anyone even thought the world could or would run a different way.
But the government doesn't need a dealer to collect the same taxes on car sales... they can get that regardless (since I still had to fork out 4k here in VA for my car, and I didn't go through no dealer)... so as long as the local government doesn't feel like their income will be threatened, and as long as we can explain properly how this is a better market for the consumer (or should at least be given the chance to sink or swim on it's own), I think we should win this war�
May 13, 2014
dsm363 Tesla is able to sells cars with less people though. They do have a small point but if government is supposed to not allow progress because a single person could lose their job then they should have kept Amazon and iTunes from running CD and book stores (remember those?) out of business.�
May 13, 2014
dmckinstry Likewise.�
May 13, 2014
FlasherZ IMO, not appropriate. Let people buy the products they want to buy, the way they want to buy it. That's the core of the argument.�
May 13, 2014
evme A better option would be to see if we can get Kehoe to lose the re-election (If his opponent is competitive to win). They might think twice in taking NADA lobby money if it can mean losing their seat.
Taking a quick look:
Mike Kehoe - Ballotpedia
He is in district 6 and his next opponent will be:
Mollie Freebairn - Ballotpedia�
May 13, 2014
dsm363 Someone should contact Mollie Freebairn and find out what they think about this issue. Consider hosting a fundraiser at someone's house and presenting a check for campaign funds at the event.�
May 13, 2014
efusco I am protesting...I bought a Tesla and am going to by another one next year!�
May 13, 2014
GoBlue88 Well done guys! Since a bill like this has about a 0.0000001% chance of happening in California, I probably won't ever get to participate in something like this directly. But I'm willing to drive to Phoenix to support such an effort there like the Illinois guys did for Missouri.�
May 13, 2014
jthompson Well said!!�
May 13, 2014
RobStark Missouri Senate District 6 is a safe Republican district.
In 2010 Kehoe had three primary challengers and ran unopposed in the General.
He received $15k from Missouri Auto Dealers Assoc in 2010 and spent $80k of his own money to get a job that pays $40k/year.
He owns a Ford and Lincoln Dealership.
No primary challenge this year.�
May 13, 2014
greencharge Thanks for the march, will do my best to join the next one if called for. Very proud of the community.�
May 13, 2014
MrPinrel I am one of the KC owners on the Kansas side and, although I was unable to go to Jeff City this week, would be happy to go in the future if needed. Just let me know...�
May 13, 2014
MrPinrel and thanks to Liz G and FlasherZ and the other St Louis Tesla owners for leading the charge on this one!�
May 13, 2014
Botbldr45 Signed
Sure would be nice to drive from Denver to St Louis without going up thru Chicago. If MO restricts Superchargers, as next devious plot to "Kill the Electric Car" ....... again, that would be a tragedy.�
May 13, 2014
RobStark JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. � House Majority Floor Leader John Diehl said Tuesday that legislation aiming to block Tesla Motors from setting up shop in Missouri will likely not be passed in the final days of session. Last week, the Missouri Senate quietly attached language that painted a target on Tesla�s direct sales model. The language, slipped into House Bill 1124, was adopted at the urging of the Missouri Auto Dealers Association, which claimed the electric car company may have been violating the state�s vehicle franchise law.
'
�It�s dead for this year. We�re not going to move House Bill 1124, and I don�t think the Senate is going to try to move it on any other language,� Diehl said on Tuesday.
Earlier in the day, he held a meeting with officials from Tesla Motors and the Missouri Auto Dealers Association to discuss the bill for �a meeting in my office where they started finding some common ground.�
�They�re going to work on it in the next year and try to find some agreement,� Diehl said.
Diehl added, �The fear here was a company like Tesla would come in and have a franchise, establish that business model that may be acquired by a company that has franchises and it may be a back door.�
Doug Smith, president of the Missouri Auto Dealers Association, said in a statement that the association � which represents more than 400 auto dealers � was �pleased with the progress of the discussions and will continue working on this.�
http://politicmo.com/2014/05/13/anti-tesla-bill-is-dead-in-missouri-says-house-leader/
Sounds like Tesla is negotiating from a position of strength, maybe a "Washington State" compromise is coming?
I know the purist won't like it but it is a good deal for Tesla.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the really great situation for Tesla.
Once Missouri is settled lobbying resources can be better spent elsewhere.�
May 13, 2014
ggies07 Thanks for the update, but are they really serious that they thought Tesla wanted to create a franchise? Hahaha. Ridiculous.�
May 13, 2014
Liz G And here is the reply from my representative Bryan Spencer, whom my husband and I met with yesterday and then left a follow-up email.
- I was informed that the bill will not be coming up for a vote however they will enforce current franchise laws on Tesla. I will be a no vote if it comes up. Thanks for your info and visit. I really did appreciate your info. Spencer -�
May 13, 2014
dsm363 What does enforcing the current franchise laws mean in Missouri?�
May 13, 2014
ckessel Actually, it was a somewhat reasonable point. If Tesla got bought someday by someone like BMW then suddenly the Tesla stores would become BMW stores and BMW would have company stores now competing with franchise dealers in the area.�
May 13, 2014
Liz G Simply that if a manufacture currently has franchises in the state they cannot compete with those franchises.�
May 13, 2014
RobStark It means nothing since Tesla does not have franchises.
I suppose what MADA is saying is that Tesla can't follow a two prong strategy which is what would be ideal for large automotive companies.
Factory stores in greater St Louis and Kansas City but independent dealers in rural areas.�
May 13, 2014
dsm363 That's fair.�
May 13, 2014
AlMc Not only fair but that was why the franchise laws were into law in the first place.�
May 13, 2014
ggies07 oooooh, so they are using "if then" future statements for the present. hahahaha. Rrrrrrrrright. I get that though, but that type of reasoning should not pass for eligibility.�
May 13, 2014
FlasherZ Tesla sent its thanks this morning (and used Dave's picture that I forwarded to them) on Twitter:
The "enforcing the current franchise laws" thing brings up an interesting point. So, if at some point in the future, Tesla finds it can't scale the company-store-only model, it would have to immediately close all the stores to open a franchise. Something tells me the dealers would be happy to codify an exception in that case, though.�
May 13, 2014
RobStark
A more likely scenario is what would happen if Tesla buys out somebody like BMW in the future. :wink:�
May 13, 2014
MikeL Hooray! Nice job everybody.
Btw, I anticipate we'll need to go thru all this again in Utah, at which time the trailblazing you and others have done will be a greatly appreciated example. Go go tesla!�
May 13, 2014
dsm363 Make a friend in your state legislative body. Preferably someone on the transportation committee. Give them a ride, donate to their campaign or host a fundraiser at your house for them. Ask them to have their office keep you in the loop on any anti-Tesla legislation NADA tries to sneak through.�
May 13, 2014
Krugerrand Pfft! How about you try to have a discussion and work on coming to an agreement BEFORE attempting to execute a lowdown, dirty, slime ball, backdoor move?�
May 13, 2014
bonnie I love this. Maybe their way of business should NOT survive. That's part of the issue. Lots of things have not survived technology marching forward. Land lines are no longer a given in this cell phone connected age. Mimeograph machines (and that wonderful intoxicating smell!) are long gone. Same thing with carbon copies and secretarial pools to type letters.
Tesla, Missouri Auto Dealers begin late battle over state franchise law | PoliticMo�
May 13, 2014
greencharge This should be the PAC, an alliance comprising owners, politicians who are owners, politicians who are enthusiasts, politicians with tesla owners in family and friends. If a PAC of this sorts can be compiled at national and state level it would be a force to deal with politically for the sneaky few .�
May 13, 2014
Zythryn Don't PACs, by definition, exclude politicians?�
May 13, 2014
TexasEV The auto dealers cartel is going to try to pull something like this in every state where direct sales aren't already banned, because there is no risk to them in trying. We need to find a way to increase the cost to them for trying to block competition by Tesla or future entrants to the market. A way to do this is to make opening up the franchise law to changes be a two edge sword. If they want to try to amend it to ban Tesla direct sales, whether openly or by sneaky language changes, they should know that will open the law up to other amendments by supporters of Tesla and real consumer groups. For example, can we get friendly legislators to put their exclusivity to warranty repairs on the table if they try to threaten Tesla? It's not the sales they really care about, it's their monopoly on warranty service.�
May 13, 2014
FlasherZ Most of the editorial press has been Tesla-positive on this, but tonight there is one dissenting voice. The Springfield News-Leader has issued the first advertiser-friendly editorial:
Our Voice: Dealer system serves public
It just parrots the same MADA lines that we've heard time and time again. The handful of comments there are negative to their position.
- - - Updated - - -
I doubt this will last much longer. When debating the Missouri bill, we heard reference after reference to New Jersey and Missouri not wanting to be like the BS seen in NJ. The word is getting out -- overwhelmingly, consumers want their choice. Dealers don't give them that choice, but they have a big tax stick. In addition, it doesn't hurt that many dealers make the public feel as if they're being made love to with 60-grit sandpaper from the moment they enter the lot.
After another win or two, I think the issue will be firmly put to bed for those states where it is not illegal for Tesla to operate. Getting the states where it *is* illegal today to change might take longer, but they will come around.�
May 13, 2014
efusco Ironic, they were the first to contact me and publish a very nice long article on the front page of the Saturday paper in support of Tesla. Clearly the advertising dealers were holding a gun to the entire editorial staff's head when they wrote and printed that bit of drivel.�
May 13, 2014
TexasEV I don't understand the tax argument the dealers use. A buyer pays the same sales tax on the purchase price of a car if it's sold by a Tesla store or a franchised dealer. It's the same smokescreen as the employment argument- people will still be selling and servicing cars no matter whether the sign says Ford Store and Service Center or Billy Bob's Ford Dealer and Service. It's just who signs the paychecks. The millions of dollars a dealer says it contributes to the economy doesn't disappear under different ownership.�
May 13, 2014
dsm363 PACs donate to politicians. I believe politicians are not even allowed to be associated with them but not sure on that. Anyway, if your state has a PAC then that is better. You still host the fundraiser at your house or someplace bigger if warranted and present the big paper check for the photo there. Until there is a PAC, no harm is simply hosting the fundraiser on your own. I don't know the rules and how people contribute so would need to get that clear. I'm sure the politician's team would be more than willing to help you out if you called and asked to host a fundraiser for them.�
May 13, 2014
AlMc I applaud the efforts of the Missouri/Illinois tesla owners and feel that the 'grass roots' approach is better with TM supplying lobbyist/legal team. I think it does pit the MADA/dealers/special interest 'big guys' against the upstart US company and citizens (the 'little guys') that makes for swift pressure on politicians by informed citizens. MADA has no good argument to pit against 'consumer choice'. Dealers are always at the bottom of opinion polls about businesses people trust/admire. TM gets a ton of free advertising. I think forming an actual PAC may remove some of our 'little guy' image.�
May 13, 2014
FlasherZ This is incorrect in some states, and especially for local taxes.
Some states charge a different local tax rate for local retail sales vs. sales that come from out of state. In some states, if you purchase a car at a dealership, you'll be charged the prevailing retail tax rate (state tax rate + local tax rate). However, if you purchase a car from out of state, you'll be charged only the state tax rate, which could be as much as 3% less.
My state handles it differently, in that sales tax is collected at registration time based on the county you reside in, so that argument doesn't hold water in Illinois. But it does hold water elsewhere.
While in Missouri, I overheard someone saying that purchasing a car from outside of Missouri has sales tax benefits to the consumer, and the locality loses some tax revenue.�
May 14, 2014
PhilBa ?I can see the head lines - rich people picket autodealers. Try to shame poor people into buying expensive cars.�
May 14, 2014
wycolo > Some states charge a different local tax rate for local retail sales vs. sales that come from out of state. [FlasherZ]
We should tabulate this. Spreadsheet anyone?
Aren't all Tesla sales still actually done 'online' from California?
--�
May 14, 2014
PhilBa Agreed but I don't think they will stop in the states where it was rejected. I'm sure in WA, they will return with another sneak attack. Probably in the other 49, too.�
May 14, 2014
FlasherZ My car was supplied from Tesla Motors Illinois, because that was required to get the $4,000 rebate from IL (must purchase from an Illinois "dealership").�
May 14, 2014
chickensevil Even in my case with VA, where it was "purchased" from NJ because we don't have a Dealership License. All that did in my state was make it annoying to register my car. Nothing more.
When you register your car, you have to tell them where you are garaging the car. This tells them where to apply any appropriate taxes. Also, even when you buy a car "out of state" the taxes are ALWAYS applied to the location where you register the car. The only way you can generally get a tax benefit that I have observed, is if you actually hold a residence in another state so you can buy a car and register it in that state for 12 months. This is because most states will still come in and take the difference in tax and make you pay that. So if you registered in say... NJ first and didn't have to pay a sales tax and then 3 months later move the registration to VA, you would be required to pay VA the difference, which is 3%.
I mean, all states are different, so maybe there are some out there were you can play with other loopholes, but having resided in Ohio, NC, and VA, that is how it has pretty much worked in all three of those states.�
May 14, 2014
TexasEV I wasn't talking about buying it locally vs. ordering it from out of state (online or otherwise). I meant buying a car from a dealer vs. buying a car from a local Tesla store in states that allow them. One of the dealers claims about how much they contribute to the local economy is how much sales tax they generate. My point was a Tesla bought locally would generate that same tax. There is nothing different about the sale happening at an independent franchise vs. a company store. What you say about local vs. state sales taxes is actually an argument in favor of allowing Tesla to sell in a state. If dealers are successful in banning Tesla sales, so they have to happen online in another state, the locality misses out on their portion of sales tax. Either way the dealers talking point about how much sales tax they generate doesn't make any sense as a reason to stop maunfacturers without existing franchises from opening stores, but I haven't seen anyone call them on it. Of course whether the tax "contributes" to the local economy or extracts from it is another matter.�
May 14, 2014
FlasherZ I agree with you and saw what you were saying, I just didn't take the example far enough. I was just pointing out that the tax situation isn't always EXACTLY the same because Tesla won't have the same coverage with its stores that other dealerships have. While these arguments are happening at a business model level (where your argument is absolutely true), they're being argued at a local district-by-district level as well. Chevrolet has hundreds of dealerships that provide local tax revenues to various localities. A more optimal model (the one Tesla uses) would shift some of that tax revenue to other localities because of the level of consolidation that such a model has.
I agree that to the state it's a net-net proposition - they'll get their tax regardless - but this is a local argument too. Dealers are making the same "local benefits" argument as well, in terms of a jobs argument, and even that editorial I posted last night makes mention of how dealerships giving cars away in a contest provided local benefits.
You have to be careful making these arguments because of the differences.�
May 14, 2014
GoBlue88 48 anyway. Gotta believe that there is no chance of it happening in California.�
May 14, 2014
MikeC It's almost too bad that they won't dare try it here. There would be quite a turnout in Sacramento, I can tell you that.�
May 14, 2014
GoBlue88 I'd drive up for it.�
May 14, 2014
voidptr When I picked mine up in North Carolina they supplied it with CA paperwork, but the DOT here charges their registration and use taxes when you title and register the car, so it doesn't really matter where anyone considers the sale transaction to have taken place.�
May 14, 2014
greencharge Sorry, I meant a literal interpretation of 'political action committee', an alliance of citizens and politicians with the same passion for tesla, EV revolution and the business aspect of it .
I am sure there are a handful and they wouldn't mind networking to fight or support the relevant issues.
I wouldn't even get closer to the traditional PAC or super PAC.�
May 14, 2014
roblab Missouri Anti-Tesla Legilsation Likely To Die, Says House Majority Leader
Looks like they plan to let the bill die on the floor.
Who said there are no smart politicians?�
May 14, 2014
SCW-Greg You know, the dealers use the main talking point about how they're an advocate on behalf of the consumer. Consumer protection they say. Righttt.
I nearly forgot my own opposite experience of this, about 2 years ago... one of my tipping points to the Tesla.
We have a 2006 Cadillac DTS. At 65,000 miles, all of the sudden, overnight it developed a pretty significant oil leak. We took it into the only remaining Cadillac dealership/service center left in the Northern Oregon area, Vic Alfonso. When we took it in, after looking at it for half a day, the service manager came back and told us we have an (engine) "case half" seal leak. Even told us it's quite common with the Northstar engine. WTF?! Common?! I thought the Northstar engine was supposed to be one of the most reliable ever built, with no maintainence required for the first 100,000 miles. I asked how much. About $3,000 he said. But this car is just outside of warranty. Sorry, it's pretty typical he said.
So not satisfied with that answer, we didn't do anything that day. After stewing about it, my wife called Cadillac direct and told them the story we were given. Cadillac HQ wasn't that happy with the answer either. They called the dealership on our behalf. After a day or so, Cadillac called back and said they are having the repair bill lowered to $2,000, and that our out-of-pocket would be $950.
In this case, the factory stood up for us (quickly I might add), in place of the greedy dealership. If these numbers are to be believed, the dealer tacked on an extra grand of pure profit. And sounds like they do this commonly, and are likely getting away with it every time.
By the way, where's the competition dealerships talk about... with only one Cadillac dealership in all of Northern Oregon!
The other key talking point the dealerships bring up, is that the dealership model creates jobs, jobs that a factory-direct model doesn't. This is not a zero sum game. With a factory direct operation, you're still going to need nearly the same body count to run show rooms and service centers, direct or not... but without unnecessary bloat dealerships bring/steal from the barefoot pilgrims that slip I nto their shark infested lots.�
May 14, 2014
Doug_G +1. As I've mentioned elsewhere on the forum, I've had a couple of occasions where the manufacturer went to bat for me against the dealer.
Also a friend of mine recently had a similar experience. He went to the dealer to get a proper OEM towing hitch installed. They improperly installed a poor quality aftermarket hitch (yes, cheaper hitch installed wrong), despite telling him they were installing an OEM hitch. When the hitch catastrophically failed in the middle of a long road trip, he went to a local dealer who replaced it with the proper OEM hitch. Only after arm twisting from Nissan Canada - my friend called them to complain about the dealer - did the original dealer finally pay ALL of his costs for the replacement, including hotel charges for the resulting overnight stay during the repairs. Needless to say he's not going back to that dealer ever again.�
May 14, 2014
bluefuego Up until last year this was the case in Missouri. But I believe that a law was finally enacted last summer in order to eliminate this loophole (Illinois side dealers heavily targeted St. Louis area customers as tax savings can obviously be quite significant on a vehicle purchase, particularly around the time this bill was being debated). My MS purchase was actually a CA sale, and since I took delivery before Tesla had a MO dealership license last year my tax bill was significantly lower - but it was only my local municipality that lost out on my sales tax, not the state.
And even though I thanked FlasherZ and Liz and the other owners/enthusiasts in person... I would like to do so here as well. Thanks to EVERYONE who came out and supported this cause and helped to inform their representatives about this issue. And particular kudos to Liz for being so well spoken to all of the reporters who interviewed her - she was amazing!
That said, I do believe that we will need to continue to be vigilant on the activities of the MO Auto Dealers Association and their attempts to continue to curtail the direct sales model. Rep. Diehl, the house majority leader, is my local rep. I did appreciate the fact that he was willing to speak with myself and another constituent on Monday. He had already made up his mind on the bill, so there was no begging and pleading with him, but I do plan on following up with him in writing tonight/tomorrow (I really do find the whole Emerald angle which has been little mentioned in press to be an interesting twist to this whole debate). I did offer to take him for a test drive the next time he was in town.. but he kinda wryly smiled and said he had just driven one the night before and thought it was pretty awesome (well, he tried to be a bit understated about it - but my interpretation of it was that he thought it was pretty awesome). :smile:
While waiting to meet with Rep. Diehl, I applauded their office for keeping the Rep's FB page open for comments and for responding to both my emails and voicemail, and I lamented to his secretary about Rep. Kolkmeyer deleting the comments on his page and locking it down. She informed me that Kolkmeyer got quite an overwhelming response online as well via voicemail with many rude comments and personal attacks. I kinda just shrugged at her and said unfortunately that's politics in the social media age (though I agree that criticism can and should be relayed without resorting to personal attacks).
Though part of me is a bit disappointed in myself for only finally being a good citizen and participating in our democratic system on something that superficially looks like a rich girl trying to buy an expensive car (such a first world problem) instead of rallying against unfair wages or wars or civil rights etc etc... I try to remind myself that this issue really is bigger than just this free market fight. I truly believe that Tesla's and Musk's mission of ushering in sustainable transport is vital on a global level, so I am happy to be a small part of that as a consumer, enthusiast, and citizen.
#SaveMoTeslas�
May 15, 2014
efusco The Springfield News-Leader is still posting about the story and how the Republican House leader put the cabash on the bill. Has multiple photos included that were taken during my interview last week.
Republican leader puts brakes on Tesla ban�
May 15, 2014
EarlyAdopter Actually, there is one, and only one job at a dealership that would be eliminated with a factory direct model: the owner.
If you want to understand why dealer's associations are fighting so hard against factory direct sales, look no further than who would be out of a job.
Another fun fact, in many counties across the US the wealthiest resident is... surprise surprise... the owner of a car dealership!
EDIT: I realized there would be one other person out of a job: the finance manager. You know, the guy or gal you have to sit down with after deciding to buy a car and work out interest rates and also reject the guantlet of profit pads, like Scotchguard and underbody coating.�
May 16, 2014
jerry33 Took me nine hours to sit through this garbage the last time I bought a car from a dealer.�
May 16, 2014
dsm363 I bought VW off the lot and it still took 6 hours.�
May 16, 2014
SCW-Greg Excellent point!�
May 16, 2014
efusco So, is the Missouri legislative session officially closed? Did we officially win this round yet?�
May 16, 2014
Larry93428 A job so very, very well done.
I just read through this entire thread. It is frightening the sort of machine that is against Tesla and the sales system.
(Service also - those "service advisors" work on commision.)
The effort is so appreciated.
Thanks all.�
May 16, 2014
Skotty On a related note, for those who haven't seen it:
FTC Staff: Missouri and New Jersey Should Repeal Their Prohibitions on Direct-to-Consumer Auto Sales by Manufacturers | Federal Trade Commission�
May 16, 2014
Zythryn This was my favorite part:
�
May 17, 2014
Merrill I read what the FTC said and according to what I can find they have the ability to issue cease and desist orders. They have no punitive ability but they can use the law to stop what they feel is a restriction of fair trade or a monopolistic competition. Why would they not do this for those states that want to restrict direct to consumer automobile sales.�
May 18, 2014
Jackl1956 Wouldn't now be a great time for the Obama administration to respond to the White House petition, citing the FTC recommendations?�
May 18, 2014
ckessel Only if they used a huge, bold, italic font. That'd really give it some weight.�
May 18, 2014
Seattle Hah! Plus an appropriate snarky smiley face on the response. I like this one :scared:�
May 18, 2014
Jackl1956 What can I say, I'm a big man. And you?:biggrin:�
May 19, 2014
jerry33 Just check out my shoe size�
Jan 22, 2015
Skotty More Trouble In Missouri?
Citing Tesla licenses, Missouri Auto Dealers launch lawsuit against Department of Revenue
Citing Tesla licenses, Missouri Auto Dealers launch lawsuit against Department of Revenue | PoliticMo�
Jan 22, 2015
evme
For those who don't remember, Osage Industries wad at one point owned by Mike Kehoe, he is the one who tried to sneak in that legislation prior:
Mikes Biography | Mike Kehoe�
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét