Feb 11, 2012
emq I understand all this tecnical aproaches to solve the problem, because I tried since 2008.
For Power quality Expert training I spent about 10 000 sFr to get more access to the Utiity responsible for connection.
When I applied a 1ph connection for a Tesla Roadster with 32A 230V or 32A 400V the answer was:
It is tecnically possible, according D-A-CH-CZ Rules, but as long, as we have not discussed this supject, between the different utilitys we have a political agreement, not to allow for 1ph above 16A230V and 400V.
You do not need to apply, because we politically do not allow.
So there are 2 political statements: Teslamotors "neclection for 3ph" & Swiss Utility "1ph above 16A"
According IEC 61000-3-11 for 16-75A 1ph Teslamotors must declare the connection needs a 100A fuse or a max Impedance to allow this connection.
But this works only if the Utility does not decide politically.
Teslamotors hide this circumstances, by illegal recomandation, to install a free red CEE-5/32A plug.�
Feb 12, 2012
Eberhard i hope the regulations keep strict on their rules. To deny Tesla or other car makers the homologation for their electric cars would help.
the carmaker cannot setup their own rules. They have to accept standards.�
Feb 12, 2012
hcsharp IEC 62196 and 61851 do in fact allow 70A single phase charging. I remember reading it a couple months ago when building my cables/adapters. 62196 prescribes a method of determining what amperage the cable is capable of because everyone has to carry their own cable around. While this may be good for Roadster owners, obviously newer cars should not take advantage of this. Roadster owners can at least take heart in knowing a lot of these 70A 1ph chargers are being installed.
If you look at the World Map of Model S Reservation Holders thread you will see a huge European market. Tesla has made mistakes but they are not so stupid as to ignore a glaring need that this market has. OK, I know, they ignored it at first, but it sounds like they may have smartened up.�
Feb 12, 2012
eledille Ah, ok, then I agree with you.�
Feb 13, 2012
widodh The specifications might allow for 70A 1ph, but it could be that other regulations do not?
I know for sure that due to phase-balancing you are not allowed to draw more then 50A at MAX on a single-phase here. But getting that is really hard and you will need a special permit. Nearly impossible.
For EV chargers which are mass-deployed such permits will never be given. At home you'll never be able to get that kind of amperage.
For example, my fusebox at home:
* http://zooi.widodh.nl/ev/tech/charging/fuse-box-at-home/20111229_004.jpg
* http://zooi.widodh.nl/ev/tech/charging/fuse-box-at-home/20111229_005.jpg
That is heavy equipped with 3x40A, normal houses might have 1x40A or 3x25A.
So next to IEC 62196 I think there are other (non EV) related regulations who forbid these kinds of implementations. If huge numbers of cars start drawing 40, 50, 70A on a single-phase that could really imbalance the grid.
George B told at the event that he sees a huge potential in Europe, but that they are limited in capacity? They'd better hire me
�
Feb 13, 2012
eledille dpeilow, hcsharp: Even though IEC 62196 and 61851 allow greater than 16 A single phase, EU, national and individual utility regulations can still disallow it.
I hope they do, and homologation might be a good tool for it, as it would allow existing Roadster/Leaf/etc owners to continue to charge at more than 16 A where possible, but would force manufacturers to implement the right solution from now on.�
Feb 14, 2012
widodh I just had a 1hr call with my contact and this is what I heard:
- The Model S EU will have 3-phase charging from 1st delivery (February 2013....)
- They will place a 3rd charger in the Model S, each charger draws power from a different phase
- Tesla's biggest problem was the price of adding the 3rd charger. So we'd probably be looking at a $3000 option for 3-phase charging
My contact spoke with a guy who was actually working on the 3-phase charging for the Model S.
Another guy told him that 3-phase charging is mandatory for the Model S otherwise they wouldn't get it into for example Germany.
In about two weeks I might be able to get a hold of a high placed Tesla individual as he's traveling around Europe, not sure yet.
For now, this is the information I have.
I'm having mixed feelings since this is still not confirmed officially, but it however seems like solid information.
Why not just say: "Yes, we WILL support 3-phase charging. More information will be released in the summer of 2012!"�
Feb 14, 2012
LST Hi Wido
Congrats to those results. Even if this is not official yet, think it's a big step to boost acceptance and practicability of Model S in EU.
I wonder how fast charging will be on a Mennekes 32amp plug.
Thank you for the good work and initiative !
Let's hope the pricing will not be prohibitive.�
Feb 14, 2012
widodh I surely do hope this information is correct, but I have a good feeling about it since it came from people who are actually working on this implementation.
3x32A at 400V will output about 20kW of useable power. The 85kWh battery will then take somewhere around 5hrs for a 0 to 100% charge.
Per hour you'd charge something like 18kWh, with somewhere around 180Wh/KM you'd be looking at 100km per hour of charging.�
Feb 14, 2012
Kevin Sharpe Agreed, that's all we need for now.�
Feb 14, 2012
Eberhard That means: we can charge with the triple charger at the same speed (or a little faster) on 230v 3x32A = 22kW, like the US twin charger 240V (277V) on 80A =20kW.
In Europe we will always have hundreds of charging stations with 3x32A from the very beginning + a few hundreds additional with 3x16A with 11kW according to LEMNET.org.
Zooming around in Europe will be very easy.�
Feb 14, 2012
widodh Indeed! Not to mention the number of 3-phase outlets which are already available on markets, garages, etc, etc. You would probably have to manufactur a portable EVSE for that, but that won't be a problem with the Open EVSE project.�
Feb 14, 2012
dsm363 Congrats! I think that's what you were expecting with it costing more but hope it's acceptable to everyone who wanted 3 phase charging.�
Feb 14, 2012
doug Definitely sounds positive! Still some open questions, though, like what charge connector are they going to use (since the one they've shown won't support 3 phase) and why was getting any hint on something that's a technical no-brainer like pulling teeth? But it feels like talking about it before there's official word might jinx it.�
Feb 14, 2012
dpeilow Yes.
Well done to everyone who has campaigned for this.�
Feb 14, 2012
Eberhard The only current socket standard in Europe is the Mennekes Type 2. It may be an additional socket inside the car (like i wanted) keeping the official socket for DC-charging only.�
Feb 14, 2012
doug Standard???�
Feb 14, 2012
dpeilow Inside the car? What would you do, leave a door open?�
Feb 14, 2012
widodh Maybe they have made a second version of their plug which has a connector for the 2nd and 3rd phase? Who knows?
I however believe the sources I got this from are solid, for now I'm assuming the Model S will have 3-phase charging capabilities�
Feb 14, 2012
jkirkebo I don't like the sound of this...
3 chargers on different phases sounds like a wye-connection (loads between phase and neutral). This works well on 400V 3-phase which has a Neutral line. It will not work on 230V 3-phase which has no Neutral line and can only be delta-connected (loads between phases only).
230V 3-phase is most prevalent in Norway, few homes have 400V service.
I would prefer a delta-connected rectifier feeding a single charger, or two chargers connected in parallell. It would then work fine on both systems (IT/230V and TN/400V). This would also avoid the 3rd charger "problem". The car could have a Mennekes-port on one side connected to a 3-phase rectifier and the Tesla port on the other side connected to a single phase rectifier, then have the proper rectifier (the one with power to it) connected to the charger(s).�
Feb 14, 2012
dpeilow There are delta and wye outlets on the 400 V system too. They need to cater for both. Should be easy.
5 pin
4 pin
The 4 pin delta 32A is the type that refrigerated truck trailers use. So you can get charging on ferries and at ferry ports with these.�
Feb 14, 2012
Eberhard Yes a tiny door or flap, protecting the plug/line to be removed.�
Feb 14, 2012
widodh I think they want to stick to the same chargers in all the cars, that would make service much easier.
Are you sure there is no neutral in your system? If there is a neutral the system would work fine, you'd have 3 chargers running at 110V instead of 230V.�
Feb 14, 2012
Eberhard This can be done easily. The system checks the voltage (phase/phase) and the present of neutral and put the charger in star or delta configuration (or DC as well)
Mennekes can handle DC up to 140A 500V = 70kW but you have still the original port for DC charging.�
Feb 14, 2012
qwk Finally. I hope Tesla confirms this and then everyone will be happy.�
Feb 14, 2012
vfx +1 !!!�
Feb 15, 2012
Kevin Sharpe Yes, because even if I don't need/want this car myself I DO want to be able to promote it to everyone I know in Europe :smile:
I had an interesting 'off the record' conversation today... It would be great if Tesla announced 3 Phase support in Geneva, with a bunch of Roadster owners, and the Model S it would be a PR dream :wink:�
Feb 15, 2012
Eberhard Even in star configuration the neutral is not really necessary if al 3 phases are equally balanced.�
Feb 15, 2012
linaser I'm sorry if this is off topic, but:
The latest information we had on the delivery date for Europe was the blog post by G. Blankenship from March 2011.
He posted: "Delivery of the European left-hand drive Model S is scheduled to begin in late 2012."
@wido: How firm was your source about the delivery starting in February 2013?�
Feb 15, 2012
Eberhard When i was in Fremont 1st Okt 2011, i was told, delivery for Europe will be late in 2012.�
Feb 15, 2012
eledille YES!!
In time they will have to do something smarter than that. Looking at what Renault is doing with the Zoe, this is going to be too expensive once they get some competition. But right now I'm just very happy it seems we can buy it after all
Another thing is that this system should be able to charge at 30 kW, which is 43 A. You can legally pull less than 63 A from a 63 A charge point, right?�
Feb 15, 2012
widodh He was pretty confident, but still, I'm not sure.
We'd have to see how the US deliveries go.
I'm also still very happy with the 3-phase news, but I'd be VERY happy if Tesla would acknowledge it officially. I still have good hope for Geneva!�
Feb 15, 2012
Kevin Sharpe Yes, thats the maximum that's available, it's up to the car to decide exactly how much it will take.�
Feb 15, 2012
Kevin Sharpe Tesla know they need to deliver a 3 Phase option and announce it formally... whether they can do this by the time we get to Geneva is in the lap of the gods :smile:�
Feb 15, 2012
Eberhard on my visit 1.oct. in fremont, JB Straubel strictly denied 3-phase charging but offered DC as the alternative. I am happy that we put enough pressure on this to convince them, for what we really need here in Europe (as well as in America)�
Feb 15, 2012
dsm363 Since we can charge at 80A at home, not sure how necessary it is in the US but I'm really glad you got what was needed for Europe and other areas that have 3 phase available in most places.�
Feb 15, 2012
eledille In the US, I believe three phase would be a direct competitor to CHAdeMO, and not needed at home. Looking at the pricing of the Renault Zoe, it's clearly possible to equip even relatively inexpensive cars with a 44 kW onboard 3-phase charger. I think this may kill CHAdeMO, which needs a 3-phase connection, and is therefore just an unnecessary expense.
On the other hand, J1772 doesn't support three phase, so another plug would be needed. No one wants to switch plug standard, so who knows how it will turn out.�
Feb 15, 2012
Eberhard RWE a leading utility company in germany installed more than 100 charging station each with two 3x32A Type 2 socket in most german cities. It would be possible to charge with 44kW while using both sockets. But i am glad to charge at least with 22kW.�
Feb 17, 2012
widodh I spoke to dutch Tesla employee who works at Tesla in the UK and I asked him about the 3-phase charging.
He responded in Dutch (d�h) and he said:
We says he saw my letter when it arrived in London and it was forwarded to Palo Alto. He says he's not up to speed about the 3-phase charging, but in his lines I read something different. (Or do I want to?)�
Feb 17, 2012
eledille I'm afraid you just want to. I was certain Tesla would support three phase after talking to their Danish guy, but as it turned out, he was just hoping too. On the other hand, it now seems he might have been right after all�
Feb 17, 2012
Norbert They may not have made a final decision yet, perhaps they are negotiating third party solutions. Also I wouldn't be surprised if you don't hear anything until after the Supercharger announcement.�
Feb 17, 2012
widodh I guess so. Although I hope they have something to show at the Geneva Motor Show.
Otherwise I guess we'll have to wait to the end of the Summer/Fall before the European specs are announced.
With all the information I get from various sources I do think that the Model S will support 3-phase charging.�
Feb 18, 2012
eledille I think that is very likely too, a proper liquid cooled three phase charger would be much less costly than three separate single phase chargers, plus there will be less maintenance, noise and heat. They should probably buy a third party solution until they have the time to build a good solution themselves.
I'm hoping for a "Yes, we will support three phase at at least x kW, further details will be released later on" at Geneva.�
Feb 18, 2012
Eberhard The new BRUSA 22kW 3-phase charger will cost less then what tesla is asking for an additional 10kW charger ($1500)�
Feb 18, 2012
jcstp Curious how it will go!
But after reading all the motivations you all wrote, it will be hard for Tesla to withhold their customers the 3-phase charging!
Even for me, who is no electrician, it is obvious why allowing 3-phase charging is beneficial!�
Feb 18, 2012
widodh When Tesla creates a new plug for the European spec we could always retrofit a BRUSA charger in the Model S
In Europe you can already find 44kW AC charging stations.�
Feb 19, 2012
Morlaixjam Today in Europe there is three big car manufacturer who sell EV it is Renault, Nissan and PSA.
Renault and Nissan belong the same group. Even if they do not use the same plug, CHAdeMO for Nissan DC fast charging solution . Renault use only slow charge method 220V 16A with AC EV plug alliance.
PSA use a different plug who is A YAZAKI Type 1 see this website : http://www.dbt.fr/produits/bornes-et-coffrets-de-recharge-pour-vehicules-electriques/les-differentes-prises/
According me we will find a lot of CHAdeMO plug in Europe because Nissan order to DBT 4000 charging station with slow and fas charging solution (slow is Yazaki type 1 and fast is CHAdeMO type 4.
Even if most of trip will be done for home to work and work to home I use to made trip over 350 km with my Roadster TESLA and tomorrow I will want to made more than 600 km with the modele S. But for people like me we need fast charging solutions. So it will be easier ti find Nissan charging station than other plug.
But I am sure that our politics are going to promote a standard that is going to be difficult to find. In Europe there is a war between German with the Menekers plug and France with the EV Plug Alliance....
The best thing for EU user will be to use standard industrial plug like we have today with our TESLA Roadster the 220V 32A blue plug or 380V 32A red plug. It exist plugs for 220V or 380V with more 100A. Why to use a communication protocol that is making the using difficult.�
Feb 19, 2012
emq So. 19. Feb.2012 i spoke to Roger Riedener peraves, Father of E-Tracer at SwissMoto Show.
There are 2 types:
- E-Tracer with ACPropulsion 10-80A 240V AC Onboard Charger, 3rd Generation of ACP, Tesla Roadster 0-499 was ACP 1st Generation
- Zerotracer with Brusa 1/3ph Charger 230/400V,3,6/11kW or more
Roger says Brusa NLG6 22kW is more expensive than the whole ACP equipment PMC, Motor, Charger
NLG 6 22kW is about 13000sFr >14000 $
NLG6 22kW 14000$ / Tesla 2x10kW 2x1500$ > 3000$�
Feb 20, 2012
Eberhard Last year, i spoke to Arno Manthoy from CTO of BRUSA. He told me, that this charger, being in mass-production, cost would around �1000. Unfortunately he died 2 month ago. RIP .�
Feb 20, 2012
widodh That would be great.
I attached the datasheet of the NLG6, it really seems like a great charger.�
Feb 20, 2012
Morlaixjam I spoke with someone who work at the TESLA STORE in Paris and he told me that the Modele S will have a Mennekes type 2 plug for the European version.�
Feb 20, 2012
widodh Don't confuse the plug with 3-phase charging.
A Mennekes/Type 2 plug means physical capability to connect to a European charging station, however, with most cars only one of the three phases is connected.�
Feb 20, 2012
EV_de really ?
Oh wait, Tesla have to redesign it anyway, cause the flap easely broke of , right ?�
Feb 20, 2012
eledille That's changing. Check out Renault Zoe, it will ship with on-board 44 kW three phase capability. Renault is the only manufacturer so far that I know has integrated the three phase charger into the motor drive, and look at the price. No-one else can match that.
Personally I don't care all that much which plug wins out in the end, there will be lots of 3-phase charge points in Europe, all the EV plug variants support 3-phase. As the communications protocol is the same, the plugs can be made to fit using adapters, but only if they support three phase. But you're right that we need adapters to the red CEEform plugs.�
Feb 21, 2012
widodh Don't count on Red CEE adapters, your Model S (and no other EV) will not be able to charge directly from a 16A or 32A CEE socket.
Regulations dictate that without the presence of a communication signal the car will default to 16A 1-phase.
You would need to have something like a UMC the Roadster currently has or some kind of portable EVSE.�
Feb 21, 2012
Eberhard default is 16A correct, but not mentioned 1- or 3 phase. For me, Mennekes Type 2 socket will be standard.�
Feb 21, 2012
eledille Which regulations? I'm 99.9% certain that 16 A, 400 V three phase is allowed without any pilot signal or communications at all.
I know that many countries require a box on the cable, but no pilot pin or signaling is required, just like 16 A single phase today. The major point is to be able to connect to dumb 16 A, 400 V sockets. If we have to have a box on the cable I'll live with that, but IEC-60309 three phase connectivity would be very useful and should not be a problem.
As far as I've understood the charging protocol it works like this:
No pilot signal -> 16 A three phase or single phase depending on which pins are live.
Pilot signal -> Up to 32 A three phase.
Communication -> Up to 63 A three phase.�
Feb 21, 2012
widodh It could be that 3-phase is allowed, although I don't think so.
However, you will end up with a box in the cable like the Roadster has.
That box does the communication to the car and lets you charge on CEE 32A 5p.
There will have to be some kind of logic outside the car, otherwise the car won't be able to detect the Amperage. You could even make your own portable EVSE with the Open-EVSE project. That would be sufficient for 3-phase charging on any socket�
Feb 21, 2012
emq 1 week bevor Arno died, Arno said, he is not net convinced the 22kW NLG 6 will be the future solution, becaus of DC & wireless charging.
We have not yet massproduction of NLG6.�
Feb 21, 2012
Eberhard You are right, but we have to cover the next 5-10 years until wireless charging will be common and DC quick charging is widely available. You know how frustrating it is waiting 6h for what can be done within 2h. (32A single phase versus 32A 3-phase)
On long distances, a Saxo with 80km/h speed limit is quite faster with 22kW charging then my tesla.�
Feb 21, 2012
eledille Google: international standard IEC 62196. Check page 9 of top result. Mode 1 is up to 16 A, single or three phase, up to 690 V, any socket type allowed, no control signal or pilot pin required, no inline control box required. Disclaimer: This version is withdrawn, but this is the same as I've read elsewhere.
That seems to depend on whether local regulations are stricter than IEC-62196 or not, plus possibly whether the manufacturer wants to sell you expensive, unnecessary gear...
For 32 A, a control box is required by IEC-62196, yes.
I think it's the other way around, but by all means please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just an amateur and enthusiast. If the car tries to pull more than the socket is capable of, all that happens is that the fuse trips. The car decides how much current to draw - but if the car does not behave in accordance with the spec, the fuse will trip and its owner will be less than impressed. The protocol tells the car how much it can pull without tripping the fuse.
Yes, and then pay an electrician to verify it, in order to not void the insurance...�
Feb 21, 2012
eledille DC charging will never become available where I want it the most - where I parked for the night. I believe that goes for inductive charging pads too - they cost too much and have too high losses compared to the tiny gain of not having to plug in.
Forget about inductive roads. That requires digging up every major road and installing precision electronics and enormous amounts of copper wire. This one takes the prize for worst case of range anxiety ever... We need to build high speed trains first.
Conductive charging is reliable and relatively inexpensive. It's all about mass production, and keep in mind that the 70 A single phase charger in the Roadster is a much more expensive piece of equipment than a 22 kW 3-p charger, even without motor drive integration.
And the charging standards have been a work in progress for more than 10 years now... This stuff takes time.�
Feb 21, 2012
dpeilow 61851-1 ed 2 says:
So it is allowed.�
Feb 21, 2012
widodh Indeed. But going over 16A requires logic, otherwise the car won't go over 16A. So for that you will need something like a UMC with various pigtales for different sockets.�
Feb 22, 2012
eledille That is true.
But 16 A, 400 V three phase can take care of any overnight charging I will ever need at very low cost. Car manufacturers and potential customers in Japan, US, Norway, Brazil etc should also take note that any three phase voltage not exceeding 480 V is allowed - this includes 208 and 230 V. At 230 V this is 6.4 kW, which yields approximately 290 km in 8 hours, which helps a lot.
That doesn't mean that I don't need higher power than 16 A, just that a very inexpensive socket is sufficient in all sorts of garages, holiday homes, hotels etc. When I stop for lunch I want as much power as possible, of course.�
Feb 22, 2012
Eberhard i have agree, i found those sockets really everywhere, car stations, car wash and supermarket (waste press) and about 250 park&charge stations in germany and switzerland.
This socket would fill up even the 85kWh pack within 6h to 80% and 9h to 100%, thats more then enough for overnight charging. At my 32A socket, i would need 9h (80%) and 12h (100%), but I can charge my Roadster in parallel.�
Feb 22, 2012
widodh Yes, 3x16A at 400V (11kW) should be more then sufficient for most charging needs.
I just wanted to point out that charging on a Red CEE 32A will not be possible without an external charging stations.
But I agree, 3x16A is most common, 3x32A is a bit more rare, but they are available!�
Feb 22, 2012
emq I fully understand your point of view.
I do not understand the helplessness of Teslamotors to understand the europaen grid advantages.�
Feb 22, 2012
emq Mode 1, 1ph 16A max. is anymore a regular charging mode. Some countrys do not allow mode 1 at all.
Every massproduction manufactorer exept teslamotors handle Mode 1 as a non regular, emergency Mode with 6-10A 1ph max.
Mode 2 is pricipally allowed up to 32A 1ph, but most Mode 2 Incable Boxes limit 1ph charging at Mode 1 infrastructure 6-10A 1ph, because it is Mode 1 at Infrastructure Side.
Ampera/Volt mode 2 incable box was 6-16A 1ph 230V. They will disapear completly, replaced with a 6&10A Mode 2 IncableBox.
So forget a Mode 1 charging infrastructure higher 16A !!
I am sorry that this facts destoy your hopes for a teslamotors solution.
Teslamotors has to learn, that even a Steve Chops Strategy, does not cancel local rules.�
Feb 23, 2012
Eberhard Thats really the problem with tesla, as JB Straubel told me, if i cannot do 1-ph charging with higher current > 16A, I have do to DC charging. hope he changed his mind.�
Feb 23, 2012
AndrewBissell emq: could you please give a source for each of *1* to *3* above?
Could you please also explain what a "Steve Chops Strategy" is?
It seems if you are right then this is not a problem for Tesla as much as a problem for the whole EV industry. If "bare sockets in the wild" are going to be forbidden for charging use because Mode 1 AND Mode 2 will be limited to 6 or 10 A then it means everyone has to install an EVSE everywhere that charging is wanted. This seems problematic.�
Feb 23, 2012
widodh With mass deployment of EV's safety is very important.
In NL Tesla recently limited the spare mobile connector to 13A while it used to do 16A. It's a bummer, but I do get the point. With 16A the outlet where you plugged in could get really hot.
So without any communication we might be limited to 13A sinlge or 3-phase. Is that bad? I don't think so. Safety is the key with mass-deployment of EV's.
Only CEE sockets (blue or red) are capable of handling 16A continuesly or even 32A (up to 63A). For those sockets we might get a mobile EVSE, just like the UMC is doing right now. But again, it could be that those won't be available due to safety regulations.
I personally wouldn't have a problem with the fact that we can only do >13A when an EVSE is present.�
Feb 23, 2012
AndrewBissell Wido: I agree about safety
Yet I am confused by the discussion. Is a portable EVSE not the same as mode 2?
However emq implies that mode 2 above 16A is forbidden.
So then a portable EVSE plugged into a 32A 30609 socket would be forbidden.
So this:
Would be forbidden.
Do you think that's really safety driven if it's forbidden? I think it's worrying.�
Feb 23, 2012
widodh Indeed, a portable EVSE is mode 2.
So, with mode 3 there will be no problem at all since the EVSE is permanently installed.
But we could still see a mode 2 charger, but only with CEE sockets at the end. Those are designed for contiues power.�
Feb 23, 2012
dpeilow At this rate I can see that I'm going to post 61851-1 ed2 one paragraph at a time...
Some people here say they are posting from positions of authority - can they perhaps advise as to whether they have newer IEC documentation?
Andrew, emq's 1, 2 and 3 are correct, although some cars may not charge with mode 1 at all.
A "Steve Chops" (sic) strategy is to ignore industry or regulatory standards and do your own thing.�
Feb 23, 2012
eledille I see nothing against 16 A three phase mode 1 here? It's allowed by the charging standards and explicitly allowed in the German EV infrastructure plan.
I completely agree that Schuko should not be used at 16 A, but IEC60309 connectors are a different matter.
Do you mean that charging from IEC60309 400V 3-phase 16 A sockets is forbidden even with in-cable control box?�
Feb 23, 2012
AndrewBissell
David. Thanks for the detailed answer and the use of primary sources (which is refreshing versus some other posters who merely "appeal to authority" as you put it).
I am still though not sure on emq's 1,2 and 3. Maybe I am reading them differently due to interpolating where I think language difficulties have warped the sense of things.
For 1 I read "anymore" as "not any longer". David your primary source says only the US forbids mode 1. emq says countries ( Plural). Also wasn't the context Europe. Yet your source implies no European countries ban mode 1.
For 2Does Tesla view it as anything but emergency mode? They certainly don't encourage it's regular use.
For 3
Where was this announced?
I find emq's statements frustrating (perhaps for lack of referencing). He seems to imply at every turn that EV charging is both unsafe and essentially forbidden unless done via EVSEs in modes 3 or 4. Now that seems to fly in the face of experience and actual regulation (thanks to David for quoting from it). It could be that language barriers are stopping me understanding what emq really means but I am finding his inputs frustrating. I can understand why JB Straubel and others may not have wanted to spend time considering unreferenced opinion.�
Feb 23, 2012
Kevin Sharpe I know from the work that at least two EVSE suppliers are undertaking that new Mode 1 and Mode 2 products are in active development for at least three different vehicle manufacturers. This includes equipment that is rated at 10A, 16A, and 32A, and will be sold with new vehicles in the European market.
I see nothing in the recent standard updates, or EVSE product development commissioned by the vehicle manufacturers, that supports the notion that AC charging in Mode 1 and Mode 2 will be disallowed in the forceable future.�
Feb 23, 2012
dpeilow I first found out that Vauxhall/Opel were downgrading their mode two charger from 16A max to 10A max at the "e-pioneer" event in early December. It will support 6A and 10A charging. This is fine for overnight use for that car (note the car still supports 16A charging on the proper EVSE).
The reasoning behind this is that they say they have had heating issues when pulling 13A from a UK 13A socket for hours at a time. Andrew - I know you said you experienced something similar.
Subsequently Vauxhall updated their FAQ.
More questions and answers are on the site.
I recently heard that Renault are also limiting their charger to 10A max and I believe that Nissan does the same.�
Feb 23, 2012
eledille I have no problems with that decision as long as we can pull 16 A from the IEC60309 sockets. The Schuko, which is the standard socket in Norway, is rated for 16 A, but will overheat if it's not in perfect shape. When pulling 16 A for hours the pins of a perfectly maintained socket will reach 70 degrees C. That isn't dangerous in itself, but over time temperature cycling causes the screws to come loose and springs to go slack, and all of a sudden you have a fire hazard. Also, some people pull the plug during charging, which causes sparking and soot buildup. This leads to poor contact and overheating over time. I've had to replace a cable because it had melted and fused to the socket. Worse, a couple of years ago the ferry between Denmark and Norway had a fire on the car deck because of an EV and an overheated Schuko. Luckily nobody died, but many cars on that deck were totaled due to smoke and heat. At 10 A there is usually no problems.
The IEC60309 sockets are quite a different matter. They have enormous pins with a huge contact area compared to the Schuko and stay cool at max current. I can see absolutely no problems allowing 16 A, 400 V 3-phase with inline control box/rcd. Even if you repeatedly pull the plug during charging there is no way you can dirty up those enormous pins to the point where you get overheating.
So then I suppose the question is how to limit current to 10 A for anything that is not IEC60309 or better, while allowing 16 A for the more powerful connectors.�
Mar 6, 2012
linaser Tesla has now officially announced 3-Phase charging for the Model S in Europe:
https://twitter.com/#!/TeslaMotors/status/176999624169623552�
Mar 6, 2012
dsm363 Was just going to post that. Great news indeed! Congrats to widodh and everyone else who had been pushing for this. Looks like you either changed their minds or pushed them in the right direction.�
Mar 6, 2012
EV_de next question : How ? squeezing more pins in the Tesla Connector , Mennekes Plug or something entirely different ?�
Mar 6, 2012
dsm363 Did they talk about what kind of plugs it would support? Maybe that's going on right now too.�
Mar 6, 2012
Eberhard I am glad, that all the pressure we put on Tesla did finally worked out. Now the question: will we get 3x10kW or something less like 3x7,5kW = 22kW�
Mar 6, 2012
Eberhard what about the roadster? will we get an 3-phase charger as well?
best
Eberhard�
Mar 6, 2012
eledille And in Norwegian: Hurra! Str�lende, Tesla!
Now we want support for 230 V 3-phase through the blue 60309 connectors plus 400 V 3-phase through the red ones, plus Mennekes...�
Mar 6, 2012
widodh This is really great news! All the effort has finally paid off!
I wonder what specs we'll get, but I expect something like 3x32A, that should be more then sufficient.
I'll drink a beer on this great news!�
Mar 6, 2012
Eberhard Let us celebrate this at the Tesla Gala Dinner in Geneva, coming Friday March 9th.�
Mar 6, 2012
Fuzzylogic Very good news!
Thanks widodh for your effort in letting Tesla see it's really required in Europe.
3x32A is all i would ever need. Even less would be OK.
Maybe 11kW standard and 22 kW as an option?�
Mar 6, 2012
LST +1 !!!
thanks Wido for your initiative and all the others supporting and pushing the cause. this is (or will be) absolutely the key to the European market (including Switzerland). curious to know the specs. CU in Geneva !�
Mar 6, 2012
widodh I expect that you'll have the option for a single charger or 3 single phase chargers.
I assume it will do 3x32A, but also 3x16A is great.
At home I'll probably charge with 3x16A, but charging with 3x32A would be great on the road!�
Mar 6, 2012
widodh As I'm not in Geneva, here's my beer:
Cheers!�
Mar 6, 2012
eledille ^ :biggrin:�
Mar 6, 2012
Lyon Just to update this thread: TM just announced that the Model S will support three phase charging in Europe.
Get your orders in now euro-folks! ;-)
Edit: wow, in the time it took to type this out...�
Mar 6, 2012
Yggdrasill This should be good.
I've been worried that almost all new charging stations here are CHAdeMO (except for regular 16A/230V/3.5kW). It should be a piece of cake to set up some three phase chargers next to the CHAdeMO chargers. A CHAdeMO costs something like $30k, while a three-phase installation should cost in the area of $1-2k.�
Mar 6, 2012
eledille Keeping track of all 50 pages in this thread is a challenge, so I'll repeat myself :biggrin:
Every Transnova-funded CHAdeMO charger is required to have extra capacity for a 63 A, 400 V Mennekes outlet. A charge pole and an electrician is all that is needed
All Norwegians should remember to ask Tesla about support for 230 V three phase too. This should cost nothing or almost nothing, and it would be too bad if it is not included by oversight.�
Mar 6, 2012
Yggdrasill Oh really? I wasn't aware of that.
Who could have imagined - a government agency with foresight!�
Mar 6, 2012
Todd Burch For those who really wanted this, it might be a good idea to let Tesla know that this change saved your reservation (or let them know if you know of people who will now buy the S because of 3-phase support)...it helps them visualize the conversion of the decision into cash for the company so they can continue to meet our demands�
Mar 6, 2012
Eberhard I blamed to JB Straubel, that i will cancel my reservation if Model S wouldn't support 3-phase. But he didn't care, he said DC-charging is the future. But indeed its badly needed in Europe�
Mar 6, 2012
dsm363 He listened it looks like. Aren't you happy they added it?�
Mar 6, 2012
Eberhard yes, i am happy. JB Straubel promised this to me, when i met him first a year ago in Milan. But on our next meeting 1.oct he left me very confused and disappointed. it was a long way until today to learn that he finally understood whats is needed herein Europe.�
Mar 6, 2012
Mitrovic Well, I thought I will wait for the Model X. But now with 3 phase charging I really will have a close look at the Model S in Geneva!�
Mar 6, 2012
dpeilow All the forthcoming Nissan chargers will have 43kW 3 phase as well.
Tonight it was confirmed to me by Renault that the Zoe will have 43kW 3 phase charging.
Come on Tesla, if the cheapest of the new generation of mass produced EVs can manage this, I am sure you can.�
Mar 6, 2012
NielsChr I guess the 3 phase will be with the house mounted fastcharger, not the build into the car - this way they can still use the new Tesla plug. They convert the 3 phase to DC before it goes to the charge cable/plug.
This is a good solution, witch will work at home or at work - at shopping centers or other public places they will proberbly not offer 3 phases anyway....
Im very happy that they decided to offer this�
Mar 6, 2012
Yggdrasill That wouldn't be three phase charging - that would be DC charging.
This announcement means that it will be possible to plug three phase AC power directly to the car and charge it. Which seems quite useful, as long as the DC charging infrastructure is at it's infancy. In 10 years we might never use three phase AC charging anymore, but in the transition period it will be more or less indispensable.�
Mar 6, 2012
dpeilow There will always be three phase charging, be it at home, the office car park or at restaurants and hotels.�
Mar 6, 2012
Yggdrasill I wouldn't put money on it. DC charging is inherently better, as you can reduce the amount of weight in the car substantially, which increases range. And it's fast.
The thing about DC charging though is the fact it requires a large expensive dedicated charging infrastructure. The question is if it ever reaches the point where AC charging can be left unsupported entirely. This would require having DC chargers basically everywhere.�
Mar 6, 2012
dpeilow What if the onboard charger, perhaps as part of the regen system or perhaps through GaN, became so lightweight as to not matter?�
Mar 6, 2012
Norbert Not surprised Tesla does eventually offer some kind of support, in each case of CHAdeMO and 3-phase... always thought they were working at least on evaluating possible solutions, or on prototypes (or perhaps negotiating third-party solutions in the case of 3-phase). However I am surprised that the Jan/Feb timeframe for the SuperCharger announcement passed without further mention, and that it will now take place later than the CHAdeMO and 3-phase kind-of-announcements.�
Mar 6, 2012
eledille We've been through this about a million times already
The main points are:
1) All the cars already contain a huge three phase inverter/voltage regulator anyway. The regeneration circuit takes three phase AC from the motor and charges the battery with it. You might need to change it a little here and there, and you need a large contactor to switch between the grid and the motor for charging, and you must include the charging algorithm into the inverter (as of today it just stuffs electricity into the battery, control must be finer when it's being used as the standard charger). But basically all the needed components except for the contactor are already present.
2) Three phase power is already present practically everywhere.
3) Even if you have to buy a separate three phase charger, you get twice the power for your money compared to a single phase charger.
Renault has been building such an integrated inverter/charger for a couple of years, and the Zoe demonstrates the result. 17k GBP before the 5k EV incentive yields a final price of 12k GBP, batteries not included. It includes a 43 kW three phase charger as standard, and the whole car costs less than a CHAdeMO charger.
DC is better only when the onboard inverter can't handle the required power, which begins at around 50-60 kW.�
Mar 7, 2012
Yggdrasill Oh, I wouldn't put money on DC, either. My point is that it's still to early to be sure about where the charging infrastructure ends up. All we know is that right now, adding three phase AC is the smart thing to do.
The Model S already contains a three phase inverter, but what about the cars using DC engines? DC charging suits every EV, as it's linked to the battery and not the motor. We will see charging infrastucture becoming more and more harmonized, and it's hard to predict the result.�
Mar 7, 2012
doug Should probably point out that from what we've seen of the Model S drivetrain, the inverter is connected directly to the motor (through the diff casing). The only power cables are coming from the battery. I think this is fine because it allows Tesla to take a more modular approach with the charger, based on customer needs.
Also I believe the Roadster 1.x did some of what you're talking about. Tesla licensed AC Propulsion's Reductive(TM) Charging technology. But that ended with Roadster 2.0.�
Mar 7, 2012
Kevin Sharpe I can't imagine that any european Tesla employees truly believe that they can deliver a useful proprietary DC Fast Charge network across europe. Without AC fast charge support Tesla will never compete with mass market cars like the ZOE even if they had a suitable car to do so.
Tesla really need to stop wasting valuable time and effort on falcon doors and focus on critical technology that enables EV's to transition to the mass market.�
Mar 7, 2012
eledille I know. But adding another set of cables should not be a huge problem. If they need more space for the inverter when it includes the charger, then there might be a problem.
Not if it forces them to charge the customer USD 3000 extra with zero margin. But I have no idea how much more space would be required or whether it's feasible to sell different versions of the inverter.
The Reductive Charger technology is a smart way to handle the problem of smoothing high current single phase power. They used the motor windings to smooth the rectifier output, if I'm not mistaken. When you have three phase input you don't have that problem.
A DC-input non-regenerative AC motor drive contains a set of power transistors to drive the three phases of the motor. A regenerative drive for a 3-phase motor must also include a 3-phase rectifier for the motor output and a second set of power transistors to drive the battery. The regeneration circuitry produces regulated DC voltage from 3-phase AC, which is exactly the same as what a DC charger does.
I'm sure the whole inverter must be redesigned and re-optimised, but the same components can be used for both regen and charging. Some coarse schematics from both RWE and Renault have been posted on this forum earlier, but I can't remember where. I have tried to find more detailed schematics, but it's hard to find exactly the right one. Most of them are designed for AC input instead of batteries, some use AC to drive a DC motor, etc.�
Mar 7, 2012
eledille This.�
Mar 7, 2012
widodh I'm reading the discussion about the charging being inside the invertor/motor electronics. That is possible as Renault is showing, but Tesla decided to use seperate chargers in the Model S.
If they are going to install 3 10kW chargers somewhow the Model S should (in theory!) be able to handle 30kW.
That's 3x40A at 230V/400V.
I still think they'll limit the Model S at 3x32A, but I would be blown away if it would support 3x63A.
DC and AC charging will always co-exist I think. DC might be used for the really fast charging >50kW, but <50kW will stay AC. It's cheap and WIDELY available.�
Mar 7, 2012
Eberhard 12kg? that's the weight of the 22kW Brusa Charger, less then one of Teslas onbord charger which are 15kg each.
DC charging makes only sense with high power like 90kW quick charging, but then it would be better to draw the power form the medium voltage of 10kV or 20kV system via a AC - DC Converter down to 500V DV, saving the need and avoiding the loss (3-5%) of a transformer.
This may work for future quick charging stations on highways to replace the current gas station.�
Mar 7, 2012
eledille Renault has patented the charger. To what extent that excludes others from doing something similar I don't know. They are so proud of it that they have given it a name of its own: Chameleon.
But regardless of what Renault is doing, Teslas announcement of three phase support is great news.
At 16 A, I will be able to use the full range of Model S on consecutive days and extend range by 60 km while having lunch.
At 32 A, I will be able to extend range by 120 km per hour. That makes real-world 500 km range practical.
At 63 A, I would have unlimited mobility.�
Mar 7, 2012
eledille doug: Correction: For a while I thought that the Reductive Charger used the regen. I know now that it used the motor windings for smoothing and that it does not handle three phase, but I don't know what else it does. It might be that it uses parts of the regen. There was speculation that AC Propulsion might have patents that influenced three phase charging using the regen. Seems like they didn't.�
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