Feb 17, 2012
Norbert They may not have made a final decision yet, perhaps they are negotiating third party solutions. Also I wouldn't be surprised if you don't hear anything until after the Supercharger announcement.�
Feb 17, 2012
widodh I guess so. Although I hope they have something to show at the Geneva Motor Show.
Otherwise I guess we'll have to wait to the end of the Summer/Fall before the European specs are announced.
With all the information I get from various sources I do think that the Model S will support 3-phase charging.�
Feb 18, 2012
eledille I think that is very likely too, a proper liquid cooled three phase charger would be much less costly than three separate single phase chargers, plus there will be less maintenance, noise and heat. They should probably buy a third party solution until they have the time to build a good solution themselves.
I'm hoping for a "Yes, we will support three phase at at least x kW, further details will be released later on" at Geneva.�
Feb 18, 2012
Eberhard The new BRUSA 22kW 3-phase charger will cost less then what tesla is asking for an additional 10kW charger ($1500)�
Feb 18, 2012
jcstp Curious how it will go!
But after reading all the motivations you all wrote, it will be hard for Tesla to withhold their customers the 3-phase charging!
Even for me, who is no electrician, it is obvious why allowing 3-phase charging is beneficial!�
Feb 18, 2012
widodh When Tesla creates a new plug for the European spec we could always retrofit a BRUSA charger in the Model SIt would be even better if we could fit two of those BRUSA Chargers. 44kW AC, nice!
In Europe you can already find 44kW AC charging stations.�
Feb 19, 2012
Morlaixjam Today in Europe there is three big car manufacturer who sell EV it is Renault, Nissan and PSA.
Renault and Nissan belong the same group. Even if they do not use the same plug, CHAdeMO for Nissan DC fast charging solution . Renault use only slow charge method 220V 16A with AC EV plug alliance.
PSA use a different plug who is A YAZAKI Type 1 see this website : http://www.dbt.fr/produits/bornes-et-coffrets-de-recharge-pour-vehicules-electriques/les-differentes-prises/
According me we will find a lot of CHAdeMO plug in Europe because Nissan order to DBT 4000 charging station with slow and fas charging solution (slow is Yazaki type 1 and fast is CHAdeMO type 4.
Even if most of trip will be done for home to work and work to home I use to made trip over 350 km with my Roadster TESLA and tomorrow I will want to made more than 600 km with the modele S. But for people like me we need fast charging solutions. So it will be easier ti find Nissan charging station than other plug.
But I am sure that our politics are going to promote a standard that is going to be difficult to find. In Europe there is a war between German with the Menekers plug and France with the EV Plug Alliance....
The best thing for EU user will be to use standard industrial plug like we have today with our TESLA Roadster the 220V 32A blue plug or 380V 32A red plug. It exist plugs for 220V or 380V with more 100A. Why to use a communication protocol that is making the using difficult.�
Feb 19, 2012
emq So. 19. Feb.2012 i spoke to Roger Riedener peraves, Father of E-Tracer at SwissMoto Show.
There are 2 types:
- E-Tracer with ACPropulsion 10-80A 240V AC Onboard Charger, 3rd Generation of ACP, Tesla Roadster 0-499 was ACP 1st Generation
- Zerotracer with Brusa 1/3ph Charger 230/400V,3,6/11kW or more
Roger says Brusa NLG6 22kW is more expensive than the whole ACP equipment PMC, Motor, Charger
NLG 6 22kW is about 13000sFr >14000 $
NLG6 22kW 14000$ / Tesla 2x10kW 2x1500$ > 3000$�
Feb 20, 2012
Eberhard Last year, i spoke to Arno Manthoy from CTO of BRUSA. He told me, that this charger, being in mass-production, cost would around �1000. Unfortunately he died 2 month ago. RIP .�
Feb 20, 2012
widodh That would be great.
I attached the datasheet of the NLG6, it really seems like a great charger.�
Feb 20, 2012
Morlaixjam I spoke with someone who work at the TESLA STORE in Paris and he told me that the Modele S will have a Mennekes type 2 plug for the European version.�
Feb 20, 2012
widodh Don't confuse the plug with 3-phase charging.
A Mennekes/Type 2 plug means physical capability to connect to a European charging station, however, with most cars only one of the three phases is connected.�
Feb 20, 2012
EV_de really ?
Oh wait, Tesla have to redesign it anyway, cause the flap easely broke of , right ?�
Feb 20, 2012
eledille That's changing. Check out Renault Zoe, it will ship with on-board 44 kW three phase capability. Renault is the only manufacturer so far that I know has integrated the three phase charger into the motor drive, and look at the price. No-one else can match that.
Personally I don't care all that much which plug wins out in the end, there will be lots of 3-phase charge points in Europe, all the EV plug variants support 3-phase. As the communications protocol is the same, the plugs can be made to fit using adapters, but only if they support three phase. But you're right that we need adapters to the red CEEform plugs.�
Feb 21, 2012
widodh Don't count on Red CEE adapters, your Model S (and no other EV) will not be able to charge directly from a 16A or 32A CEE socket.
Regulations dictate that without the presence of a communication signal the car will default to 16A 1-phase.
You would need to have something like a UMC the Roadster currently has or some kind of portable EVSE.�
Feb 21, 2012
Eberhard default is 16A correct, but not mentioned 1- or 3 phase. For me, Mennekes Type 2 socket will be standard.�
Feb 21, 2012
eledille Which regulations? I'm 99.9% certain that 16 A, 400 V three phase is allowed without any pilot signal or communications at all.
I know that many countries require a box on the cable, but no pilot pin or signaling is required, just like 16 A single phase today. The major point is to be able to connect to dumb 16 A, 400 V sockets. If we have to have a box on the cable I'll live with that, but IEC-60309 three phase connectivity would be very useful and should not be a problem.
As far as I've understood the charging protocol it works like this:
No pilot signal -> 16 A three phase or single phase depending on which pins are live.
Pilot signal -> Up to 32 A three phase.
Communication -> Up to 63 A three phase.�
Feb 21, 2012
widodh It could be that 3-phase is allowed, although I don't think so.
However, you will end up with a box in the cable like the Roadster has.
That box does the communication to the car and lets you charge on CEE 32A 5p.
There will have to be some kind of logic outside the car, otherwise the car won't be able to detect the Amperage. You could even make your own portable EVSE with the Open-EVSE project. That would be sufficient for 3-phase charging on any socket�
Feb 21, 2012
emq 1 week bevor Arno died, Arno said, he is not net convinced the 22kW NLG 6 will be the future solution, becaus of DC & wireless charging.
We have not yet massproduction of NLG6.�
Feb 21, 2012
Eberhard You are right, but we have to cover the next 5-10 years until wireless charging will be common and DC quick charging is widely available. You know how frustrating it is waiting 6h for what can be done within 2h. (32A single phase versus 32A 3-phase)
On long distances, a Saxo with 80km/h speed limit is quite faster with 22kW charging then my tesla.�
Feb 21, 2012
eledille Google: international standard IEC 62196. Check page 9 of top result. Mode 1 is up to 16 A, single or three phase, up to 690 V, any socket type allowed, no control signal or pilot pin required, no inline control box required. Disclaimer: This version is withdrawn, but this is the same as I've read elsewhere.
That seems to depend on whether local regulations are stricter than IEC-62196 or not, plus possibly whether the manufacturer wants to sell you expensive, unnecessary gear...
For 32 A, a control box is required by IEC-62196, yes.
I think it's the other way around, but by all means please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just an amateur and enthusiast. If the car tries to pull more than the socket is capable of, all that happens is that the fuse trips. The car decides how much current to draw - but if the car does not behave in accordance with the spec, the fuse will trip and its owner will be less than impressed. The protocol tells the car how much it can pull without tripping the fuse.
Yes, and then pay an electrician to verify it, in order to not void the insurance...�
Feb 21, 2012
eledille DC charging will never become available where I want it the most - where I parked for the night. I believe that goes for inductive charging pads too - they cost too much and have too high losses compared to the tiny gain of not having to plug in.
Forget about inductive roads. That requires digging up every major road and installing precision electronics and enormous amounts of copper wire. This one takes the prize for worst case of range anxiety ever... We need to build high speed trains first.
Conductive charging is reliable and relatively inexpensive. It's all about mass production, and keep in mind that the 70 A single phase charger in the Roadster is a much more expensive piece of equipment than a 22 kW 3-p charger, even without motor drive integration.
And the charging standards have been a work in progress for more than 10 years now... This stuff takes time.�
Feb 21, 2012
dpeilow 61851-1 ed 2 says:
So it is allowed.�
Feb 21, 2012
widodh Indeed. But going over 16A requires logic, otherwise the car won't go over 16A. So for that you will need something like a UMC with various pigtales for different sockets.�
Feb 22, 2012
eledille That is true.
But 16 A, 400 V three phase can take care of any overnight charging I will ever need at very low cost. Car manufacturers and potential customers in Japan, US, Norway, Brazil etc should also take note that any three phase voltage not exceeding 480 V is allowed - this includes 208 and 230 V. At 230 V this is 6.4 kW, which yields approximately 290 km in 8 hours, which helps a lot.
That doesn't mean that I don't need higher power than 16 A, just that a very inexpensive socket is sufficient in all sorts of garages, holiday homes, hotels etc. When I stop for lunch I want as much power as possible, of course.�
Feb 22, 2012
Eberhard i have agree, i found those sockets really everywhere, car stations, car wash and supermarket (waste press) and about 250 park&charge stations in germany and switzerland.
This socket would fill up even the 85kWh pack within 6h to 80% and 9h to 100%, thats more then enough for overnight charging. At my 32A socket, i would need 9h (80%) and 12h (100%), but I can charge my Roadster in parallel.�
Feb 22, 2012
widodh Yes, 3x16A at 400V (11kW) should be more then sufficient for most charging needs.
I just wanted to point out that charging on a Red CEE 32A will not be possible without an external charging stations.
But I agree, 3x16A is most common, 3x32A is a bit more rare, but they are available!�
Feb 22, 2012
emq I fully understand your point of view.
I do not understand the helplessness of Teslamotors to understand the europaen grid advantages.�
Feb 22, 2012
emq Mode 1, 1ph 16A max. is anymore a regular charging mode. Some countrys do not allow mode 1 at all.
Every massproduction manufactorer exept teslamotors handle Mode 1 as a non regular, emergency Mode with 6-10A 1ph max.
Mode 2 is pricipally allowed up to 32A 1ph, but most Mode 2 Incable Boxes limit 1ph charging at Mode 1 infrastructure 6-10A 1ph, because it is Mode 1 at Infrastructure Side.
Ampera/Volt mode 2 incable box was 6-16A 1ph 230V. They will disapear completly, replaced with a 6&10A Mode 2 IncableBox.
So forget a Mode 1 charging infrastructure higher 16A !!
I am sorry that this facts destoy your hopes for a teslamotors solution.
Teslamotors has to learn, that even a Steve Chops Strategy, does not cancel local rules.�
Feb 23, 2012
Eberhard Thats really the problem with tesla, as JB Straubel told me, if i cannot do 1-ph charging with higher current > 16A, I have do to DC charging. hope he changed his mind.�
Feb 23, 2012
AndrewBissell emq: could you please give a source for each of *1* to *3* above?
Could you please also explain what a "Steve Chops Strategy" is?
It seems if you are right then this is not a problem for Tesla as much as a problem for the whole EV industry. If "bare sockets in the wild" are going to be forbidden for charging use because Mode 1 AND Mode 2 will be limited to 6 or 10 A then it means everyone has to install an EVSE everywhere that charging is wanted. This seems problematic.�
Feb 23, 2012
widodh With mass deployment of EV's safety is very important.
In NL Tesla recently limited the spare mobile connector to 13A while it used to do 16A. It's a bummer, but I do get the point. With 16A the outlet where you plugged in could get really hot.
So without any communication we might be limited to 13A sinlge or 3-phase. Is that bad? I don't think so. Safety is the key with mass-deployment of EV's.
Only CEE sockets (blue or red) are capable of handling 16A continuesly or even 32A (up to 63A). For those sockets we might get a mobile EVSE, just like the UMC is doing right now. But again, it could be that those won't be available due to safety regulations.
I personally wouldn't have a problem with the fact that we can only do >13A when an EVSE is present.�
Feb 23, 2012
AndrewBissell Wido: I agree about safety
Yet I am confused by the discussion. Is a portable EVSE not the same as mode 2?
However emq implies that mode 2 above 16A is forbidden.
So then a portable EVSE plugged into a 32A 30609 socket would be forbidden.
So this:
Would be forbidden.
Do you think that's really safety driven if it's forbidden? I think it's worrying.�
Feb 23, 2012
widodh Indeed, a portable EVSE is mode 2.
So, with mode 3 there will be no problem at all since the EVSE is permanently installed.
But we could still see a mode 2 charger, but only with CEE sockets at the end. Those are designed for contiues power.�
Feb 23, 2012
dpeilow At this rate I can see that I'm going to post 61851-1 ed2 one paragraph at a time...
Some people here say they are posting from positions of authority - can they perhaps advise as to whether they have newer IEC documentation?
Andrew, emq's 1, 2 and 3 are correct, although some cars may not charge with mode 1 at all.
A "Steve Chops" (sic) strategy is to ignore industry or regulatory standards and do your own thing.�
Feb 23, 2012
eledille I see nothing against 16 A three phase mode 1 here? It's allowed by the charging standards and explicitly allowed in the German EV infrastructure plan.
I completely agree that Schuko should not be used at 16 A, but IEC60309 connectors are a different matter.
Do you mean that charging from IEC60309 400V 3-phase 16 A sockets is forbidden even with in-cable control box?�
Feb 23, 2012
AndrewBissell
David. Thanks for the detailed answer and the use of primary sources (which is refreshing versus some other posters who merely "appeal to authority" as you put it).
I am still though not sure on emq's 1,2 and 3. Maybe I am reading them differently due to interpolating where I think language difficulties have warped the sense of things.
For 1 I read "anymore" as "not any longer". David your primary source says only the US forbids mode 1. emq says countries ( Plural). Also wasn't the context Europe. Yet your source implies no European countries ban mode 1.
For 2Does Tesla view it as anything but emergency mode? They certainly don't encourage it's regular use.
For 3
Where was this announced?
I find emq's statements frustrating (perhaps for lack of referencing). He seems to imply at every turn that EV charging is both unsafe and essentially forbidden unless done via EVSEs in modes 3 or 4. Now that seems to fly in the face of experience and actual regulation (thanks to David for quoting from it). It could be that language barriers are stopping me understanding what emq really means but I am finding his inputs frustrating. I can understand why JB Straubel and others may not have wanted to spend time considering unreferenced opinion.�
Feb 23, 2012
Kevin Sharpe I know from the work that at least two EVSE suppliers are undertaking that new Mode 1 and Mode 2 products are in active development for at least three different vehicle manufacturers. This includes equipment that is rated at 10A, 16A, and 32A, and will be sold with new vehicles in the European market.
I see nothing in the recent standard updates, or EVSE product development commissioned by the vehicle manufacturers, that supports the notion that AC charging in Mode 1 and Mode 2 will be disallowed in the forceable future.�
Feb 23, 2012
dpeilow I first found out that Vauxhall/Opel were downgrading their mode two charger from 16A max to 10A max at the "e-pioneer" event in early December. It will support 6A and 10A charging. This is fine for overnight use for that car (note the car still supports 16A charging on the proper EVSE).
The reasoning behind this is that they say they have had heating issues when pulling 13A from a UK 13A socket for hours at a time. Andrew - I know you said you experienced something similar.
Subsequently Vauxhall updated their FAQ.
More questions and answers are on the site.
I recently heard that Renault are also limiting their charger to 10A max and I believe that Nissan does the same.�
Feb 23, 2012
eledille I have no problems with that decision as long as we can pull 16 A from the IEC60309 sockets. The Schuko, which is the standard socket in Norway, is rated for 16 A, but will overheat if it's not in perfect shape. When pulling 16 A for hours the pins of a perfectly maintained socket will reach 70 degrees C. That isn't dangerous in itself, but over time temperature cycling causes the screws to come loose and springs to go slack, and all of a sudden you have a fire hazard. Also, some people pull the plug during charging, which causes sparking and soot buildup. This leads to poor contact and overheating over time. I've had to replace a cable because it had melted and fused to the socket. Worse, a couple of years ago the ferry between Denmark and Norway had a fire on the car deck because of an EV and an overheated Schuko. Luckily nobody died, but many cars on that deck were totaled due to smoke and heat. At 10 A there is usually no problems.
The IEC60309 sockets are quite a different matter. They have enormous pins with a huge contact area compared to the Schuko and stay cool at max current. I can see absolutely no problems allowing 16 A, 400 V 3-phase with inline control box/rcd. Even if you repeatedly pull the plug during charging there is no way you can dirty up those enormous pins to the point where you get overheating.
So then I suppose the question is how to limit current to 10 A for anything that is not IEC60309 or better, while allowing 16 A for the more powerful connectors.�
Mar 6, 2012
linaser Tesla has now officially announced 3-Phase charging for the Model S in Europe:
https://twitter.com/#!/TeslaMotors/status/176999624169623552�
Mar 6, 2012
dsm363 Was just going to post that. Great news indeed! Congrats to widodh and everyone else who had been pushing for this. Looks like you either changed their minds or pushed them in the right direction.�
Mar 6, 2012
EV_de next question : How ? squeezing more pins in the Tesla Connector , Mennekes Plug or something entirely different ?�
Mar 6, 2012
dsm363 Did they talk about what kind of plugs it would support? Maybe that's going on right now too.�
Mar 6, 2012
Eberhard I am glad, that all the pressure we put on Tesla did finally worked out. Now the question: will we get 3x10kW or something less like 3x7,5kW = 22kW�
Mar 6, 2012
Eberhard what about the roadster? will we get an 3-phase charger as well?
best
Eberhard�
Mar 6, 2012
eledille And in Norwegian: Hurra! Str�lende, Tesla!
Now we want support for 230 V 3-phase through the blue 60309 connectors plus 400 V 3-phase through the red ones, plus Mennekes...�
Mar 6, 2012
widodh This is really great news! All the effort has finally paid off!
I wonder what specs we'll get, but I expect something like 3x32A, that should be more then sufficient.
I'll drink a beer on this great news!�
Mar 6, 2012
Eberhard Let us celebrate this at the Tesla Gala Dinner in Geneva, coming Friday March 9th.�
Mar 6, 2012
Fuzzylogic Very good news!
Thanks widodh for your effort in letting Tesla see it's really required in Europe.
3x32A is all i would ever need. Even less would be OK.
Maybe 11kW standard and 22 kW as an option?�
Mar 6, 2012
LST +1 !!!
thanks Wido for your initiative and all the others supporting and pushing the cause. this is (or will be) absolutely the key to the European market (including Switzerland). curious to know the specs. CU in Geneva !�
Mar 6, 2012
widodh I expect that you'll have the option for a single charger or 3 single phase chargers.
I assume it will do 3x32A, but also 3x16A is great.
At home I'll probably charge with 3x16A, but charging with 3x32A would be great on the road!�
Mar 6, 2012
widodh As I'm not in Geneva, here's my beer:
Cheers!�
Mar 6, 2012
eledille ^ :biggrin:�
Mar 6, 2012
Lyon Just to update this thread: TM just announced that the Model S will support three phase charging in Europe.
Get your orders in now euro-folks! ;-)
Edit: wow, in the time it took to type this out...�
Mar 6, 2012
Yggdrasill This should be good.
I've been worried that almost all new charging stations here are CHAdeMO (except for regular 16A/230V/3.5kW). It should be a piece of cake to set up some three phase chargers next to the CHAdeMO chargers. A CHAdeMO costs something like $30k, while a three-phase installation should cost in the area of $1-2k.�
Mar 6, 2012
eledille Keeping track of all 50 pages in this thread is a challenge, so I'll repeat myself :biggrin:
Every Transnova-funded CHAdeMO charger is required to have extra capacity for a 63 A, 400 V Mennekes outlet. A charge pole and an electrician is all that is needed
All Norwegians should remember to ask Tesla about support for 230 V three phase too. This should cost nothing or almost nothing, and it would be too bad if it is not included by oversight.�
Mar 6, 2012
Yggdrasill Oh really? I wasn't aware of that.
Who could have imagined - a government agency with foresight!�
Mar 6, 2012
Todd Burch For those who really wanted this, it might be a good idea to let Tesla know that this change saved your reservation (or let them know if you know of people who will now buy the S because of 3-phase support)...it helps them visualize the conversion of the decision into cash for the company so they can continue to meet our demands�
Mar 6, 2012
Eberhard I blamed to JB Straubel, that i will cancel my reservation if Model S wouldn't support 3-phase. But he didn't care, he said DC-charging is the future. But indeed its badly needed in Europe�
Mar 6, 2012
dsm363 He listened it looks like. Aren't you happy they added it?�
Mar 6, 2012
Eberhard yes, i am happy. JB Straubel promised this to me, when i met him first a year ago in Milan. But on our next meeting 1.oct he left me very confused and disappointed. it was a long way until today to learn that he finally understood whats is needed herein Europe.�
Mar 6, 2012
Mitrovic Well, I thought I will wait for the Model X. But now with 3 phase charging I really will have a close look at the Model S in Geneva!�
Mar 6, 2012
dpeilow All the forthcoming Nissan chargers will have 43kW 3 phase as well.
Tonight it was confirmed to me by Renault that the Zoe will have 43kW 3 phase charging.
Come on Tesla, if the cheapest of the new generation of mass produced EVs can manage this, I am sure you can.�
Mar 6, 2012
NielsChr I guess the 3 phase will be with the house mounted fastcharger, not the build into the car - this way they can still use the new Tesla plug. They convert the 3 phase to DC before it goes to the charge cable/plug.
This is a good solution, witch will work at home or at work - at shopping centers or other public places they will proberbly not offer 3 phases anyway....
Im very happy that they decided to offer this�
Mar 6, 2012
Yggdrasill That wouldn't be three phase charging - that would be DC charging.
This announcement means that it will be possible to plug three phase AC power directly to the car and charge it. Which seems quite useful, as long as the DC charging infrastructure is at it's infancy. In 10 years we might never use three phase AC charging anymore, but in the transition period it will be more or less indispensable.�
Mar 6, 2012
dpeilow There will always be three phase charging, be it at home, the office car park or at restaurants and hotels.�
Mar 6, 2012
Yggdrasill I wouldn't put money on it. DC charging is inherently better, as you can reduce the amount of weight in the car substantially, which increases range. And it's fast.
The thing about DC charging though is the fact it requires a large expensive dedicated charging infrastructure. The question is if it ever reaches the point where AC charging can be left unsupported entirely. This would require having DC chargers basically everywhere.�
Mar 6, 2012
dpeilow What if the onboard charger, perhaps as part of the regen system or perhaps through GaN, became so lightweight as to not matter?�
Mar 6, 2012
Norbert Not surprised Tesla does eventually offer some kind of support, in each case of CHAdeMO and 3-phase... always thought they were working at least on evaluating possible solutions, or on prototypes (or perhaps negotiating third-party solutions in the case of 3-phase). However I am surprised that the Jan/Feb timeframe for the SuperCharger announcement passed without further mention, and that it will now take place later than the CHAdeMO and 3-phase kind-of-announcements.�
Mar 6, 2012
eledille We've been through this about a million times already
The main points are:
1) All the cars already contain a huge three phase inverter/voltage regulator anyway. The regeneration circuit takes three phase AC from the motor and charges the battery with it. You might need to change it a little here and there, and you need a large contactor to switch between the grid and the motor for charging, and you must include the charging algorithm into the inverter (as of today it just stuffs electricity into the battery, control must be finer when it's being used as the standard charger). But basically all the needed components except for the contactor are already present.
2) Three phase power is already present practically everywhere.
3) Even if you have to buy a separate three phase charger, you get twice the power for your money compared to a single phase charger.
Renault has been building such an integrated inverter/charger for a couple of years, and the Zoe demonstrates the result. 17k GBP before the 5k EV incentive yields a final price of 12k GBP, batteries not included. It includes a 43 kW three phase charger as standard, and the whole car costs less than a CHAdeMO charger.
DC is better only when the onboard inverter can't handle the required power, which begins at around 50-60 kW.�
Mar 7, 2012
Yggdrasill Oh, I wouldn't put money on DC, either. My point is that it's still to early to be sure about where the charging infrastructure ends up. All we know is that right now, adding three phase AC is the smart thing to do.
The Model S already contains a three phase inverter, but what about the cars using DC engines? DC charging suits every EV, as it's linked to the battery and not the motor. We will see charging infrastucture becoming more and more harmonized, and it's hard to predict the result.�
Mar 7, 2012
doug Should probably point out that from what we've seen of the Model S drivetrain, the inverter is connected directly to the motor (through the diff casing). The only power cables are coming from the battery. I think this is fine because it allows Tesla to take a more modular approach with the charger, based on customer needs.
Also I believe the Roadster 1.x did some of what you're talking about. Tesla licensed AC Propulsion's Reductive(TM) Charging technology. But that ended with Roadster 2.0.�
Mar 7, 2012
Kevin Sharpe I can't imagine that any european Tesla employees truly believe that they can deliver a useful proprietary DC Fast Charge network across europe. Without AC fast charge support Tesla will never compete with mass market cars like the ZOE even if they had a suitable car to do so.
Tesla really need to stop wasting valuable time and effort on falcon doors and focus on critical technology that enables EV's to transition to the mass market.�
Mar 7, 2012
eledille I know. But adding another set of cables should not be a huge problem. If they need more space for the inverter when it includes the charger, then there might be a problem.
Not if it forces them to charge the customer USD 3000 extra with zero margin. But I have no idea how much more space would be required or whether it's feasible to sell different versions of the inverter.
The Reductive Charger technology is a smart way to handle the problem of smoothing high current single phase power. They used the motor windings to smooth the rectifier output, if I'm not mistaken. When you have three phase input you don't have that problem.
A DC-input non-regenerative AC motor drive contains a set of power transistors to drive the three phases of the motor. A regenerative drive for a 3-phase motor must also include a 3-phase rectifier for the motor output and a second set of power transistors to drive the battery. The regeneration circuitry produces regulated DC voltage from 3-phase AC, which is exactly the same as what a DC charger does.
I'm sure the whole inverter must be redesigned and re-optimised, but the same components can be used for both regen and charging. Some coarse schematics from both RWE and Renault have been posted on this forum earlier, but I can't remember where. I have tried to find more detailed schematics, but it's hard to find exactly the right one. Most of them are designed for AC input instead of batteries, some use AC to drive a DC motor, etc.�
Mar 7, 2012
eledille This.�
Mar 7, 2012
widodh I'm reading the discussion about the charging being inside the invertor/motor electronics. That is possible as Renault is showing, but Tesla decided to use seperate chargers in the Model S.
If they are going to install 3 10kW chargers somewhow the Model S should (in theory!) be able to handle 30kW.
That's 3x40A at 230V/400V.
I still think they'll limit the Model S at 3x32A, but I would be blown away if it would support 3x63A.
DC and AC charging will always co-exist I think. DC might be used for the really fast charging >50kW, but <50kW will stay AC. It's cheap and WIDELY available.�
Mar 7, 2012
Eberhard 12kg? that's the weight of the 22kW Brusa Charger, less then one of Teslas onbord charger which are 15kg each.
DC charging makes only sense with high power like 90kW quick charging, but then it would be better to draw the power form the medium voltage of 10kV or 20kV system via a AC - DC Converter down to 500V DV, saving the need and avoiding the loss (3-5%) of a transformer.
This may work for future quick charging stations on highways to replace the current gas station.�
Mar 7, 2012
eledille Renault has patented the charger. To what extent that excludes others from doing something similar I don't know. They are so proud of it that they have given it a name of its own: Chameleon.
But regardless of what Renault is doing, Teslas announcement of three phase support is great news.
At 16 A, I will be able to use the full range of Model S on consecutive days and extend range by 60 km while having lunch.
At 32 A, I will be able to extend range by 120 km per hour. That makes real-world 500 km range practical.
At 63 A, I would have unlimited mobility.�
Mar 7, 2012
eledille doug: Correction: For a while I thought that the Reductive Charger used the regen. I know now that it used the motor windings for smoothing and that it does not handle three phase, but I don't know what else it does. It might be that it uses parts of the regen. There was speculation that AC Propulsion might have patents that influenced three phase charging using the regen. Seems like they didn't.�
Mar 7, 2012
Yggdrasill Assuming a weight of 20 kg, that's about 50 Watts to keep it going at 55 mph. That reduces the range of the 85 kWh battery by about 1 mile, and will cost around 200 kWh over 300k km.
That's not as bad as I would have thought, actually. It may be that the AC charger is worth dragging along in the long term.�
Mar 7, 2012
Eberhard wrong calculation. because the 3-phase 22kW charger weights less then the 30kg twin charger, you will even gain range.�
Mar 7, 2012
dsm363 This thread is so long now but what exactly did Tesla say they'll deliver with 3 phase charging and is it what you were hoping for?�
Mar 7, 2012
Eberhard the info was published via twitter. i think, tesla managed to add a third charger not a new development.�
Mar 7, 2012
Yggdrasill I would think it's more likely that Tesla stuffs in another 15 kg charger, meaning you have to drag around 30 kg extra on top of the single charger, and leading to a range reduction of around 1.5 miles.
But I was thinking in more general terms - whether it would be very beneficial to get rid of a 20 kg AC charger and use DC charging exclusively. It's apparently not very beneficial.�
Mar 7, 2012
Eberhard if DC would be available everywhere - no problem. Then we could also talk about inductive charging. It will take a few years. But AC 3-phase is already there, several hundreds of 16A 3-phase with 11kW or higher are installed by Park&charge in Switzerland, Austria and Germany.�
Mar 9, 2012
GeorgeB Hello from Amsterdam... I had a great few days at the Geneva Motor Show, then on to the Netherlands for a few meetings.
Just a quick note to say thanks to Widodh for the package he put together. It was nicely presented.
I know Model S 3-phase charging has been an important issue to many of you, and I'm very happy that Elon made it official on Tuesday. I have no further details to share at this point on the subject. We will give more details when they are finalized.
Thanks Widodh.
Have a great weekend! GeorgeB�
Mar 9, 2012
dpeilow Yes big thanks to Wido and the many others who worked behing the scenes to make this happen - you know who you are ;-)�
Mar 10, 2012
widodh Thanks!
Great to hear this from you! No thank you is needed, it was no problem at all to make the package, I'm just really happy with this announcement! I also don't think I was the only one sending letters to Tesla
We'll wait for the further details, I think now that the word has come out people will calm down around this.
In my mailbox I have two e-mails of people who e-mailed me telling me they made a reservation after the announcement was made. It was a real dealbreaker for people. But that's history now!�
Mar 10, 2012
dsm363 Widodh 2012!
Nice work. Also great to know Tesla listens when there is sufficient demand and a strong argument for a feature such as three phase charging.�
Mar 10, 2012
eledille Check out what Renault is doing with the Zoe charger. They actually did exactly what I've been arguing should be done for years, they have integrated the charger into the motor controller to reduce cost and weight. Zoe has an extremely attractive price and an extremely powerful AC charger. That would be very difficult to achieve without such integration. Shared cooling systems alone would reduce both weight and cost by quite a bit.
I don't think there is any weight penalty at all, remember that you can drop the single phase charger that would otherwise be required.�
Mar 10, 2012
hcsharp It's debatable whether integrating the two is more efficient and cheaper, or better. Both systems have different requirements for cooling. Both systems are handling different ranges of voltage levels and power. Separating the two systems allows you to optimize each for it's own highest efficiency instead of compromising to allow multiple purposes from the same components. The maintenance is probably also cheaper. If a charger breaks it will be much easier to replace than a more expensive integrated unit. Of course Renault's approach has benefits as well. I'm not convinced it's as simple as it looks.�
Mar 11, 2012
Eberhard I agree, if you have the inverter attached direct to the windings of the ac-motor, you have no space for a contactor or one, thats can do 1200A with nearly no contact resistance.�
Mar 13, 2012
eledille hcsharp, Eberhard: The fact that Renault can offer Zoe for GBP 18000 including integrated 43 kW charger proves that this can be done.
Cooling requirements would be essentially the same, both contain the same type of electronics and will require the same operating temperature, so they can be connected to the same coolant loop. I don't think there would be any efficiency loss, regen and charging happens at comparable voltages, frequencies and power. If there is any efficiency loss, then that must be balanced against cost - we could have extremely efficient electric drives if we used superconductors, but it's too expensive.�
Mar 13, 2012
Eberhard The ZOE has a detached Ac-Motor/Inverter combination. The power is with 65kW relative low. This cannot be done with Model S attached motor/inverter of 300kW and 1200A�
Mar 13, 2012
Norbert We don't know if the Zoe is sold with profit (and if so, with how much profit). Last I heard about the Nissan Leaf it appeared to be sold below cost. (As for the Volt.)�
Mar 13, 2012
dpeilow They're planning to sell 150000 a year. I doubt they're doing it for charity...�
Mar 13, 2012
Yggdrasill They might just be carving out a niche for themselves for the future. Toyota sold the first generation Prius at a loss to develop the hybrid market for themselves. That was about 2-300 000 cars. They've been profiting on their investment for a decade now.�
Mar 14, 2012
stopcrazypp That's with battery lease and a huge volume target (so any development/parts costs are more easily amortized).
Assuming this is still talking about the applicability to the Model S, I doubt the cost will be the same for Tesla to do the same approach. Based on the fact that there is little to no demand for 3-phase in the US, I doubt Tesla will go for an integrated solution. The modular solution lets them easily provide both upgradable chargers AND 3-phase support for the markets that want it.�
Mar 14, 2012
eledille Please tell me why.
The Model S motor and inverter are separate components, they are just mounted close together. There is no reason why a contactor could not be added, a 1200 A, 500-ish volt contactor is a fairly low-power component after all. This is a big contactor :biggrin: (failing to immediately break one of the phases). The contactor required in this application is particularly simple because it does not have to break any current. The motor is obviously not getting any power when you're about to charge the battery, so the contactor only has to conduct and isolate well, there will be no arcing to worry about. I'm not even sure contactor is the right word for it. The motor is not involved in charging at all.
I like the way they have mounted the motor and inverter in Model S, but if there is not enough room for an integrated charger/inverter then they will have to find a way to make room. As I've said many times, I don't see why a charger/inverter would take up much more space than a plain inverter anyway, the whole point is that one is almost a superset of the other.
I'm not arguing that they should change the first generation Model S to do this. I'm saying that they need to start working on this now. Renault has a lead of a couple of years here and Tesla didn't even think seriously about three phase until a few months ago. This is clearly the future, Renault has demonstrated that they can do it at high power in an extremely attractively priced EV, and if Tesla can't do it too then they're in trouble.�
Mar 14, 2012
GSP That was a BIG contactor!
Thanks for sharing.
GSP�
Mar 14, 2012
eledille GSP: My pleasure. Digressing a bit here, but see this one too. The arcing is due to the helicopter acting as a capacitor. Electricity is awesome stuff�
Mar 14, 2012
Robert.Boston @eledille: this sounds like a great item to put on the "to do" list for Tesla's EEs. I'd be very surprised if we see it on the EU Model Ss, because of timing, but it would be a very cost-efficient way to handle 3-phase charging in later iterations.�
Mar 14, 2012
rabar10 Something else to keep in mind -- the Model S already has contactors to allow for dual-mode charging (either AC or DC) on the same charge port conductors.
(somewhat off-topic) I would be interested to see the wire paths in the Model S between the charge port, one or more chargers under the rear seats, and the battery pack. Where do these DC-fast-charge contactors reside? Are contactors also necessary on the input side of the AC chargers? How are the dual chargers "wired up" to the charge port and battery pack? etc...�
Mar 14, 2012
Eberhard These contactors are on the charge lines, with max. 200A and they don't disturb the maximum ac-motor current up to 1200A.�
Mar 14, 2012
stopcrazypp In terms of the "integrated" charger. I think Tesla has used this before in the Roadster. I assume we are talking about the charger in page 18 of this presentation:
http://vppc2010.univ-lille1.fr/uploads/PDF/VPPC-10-Pres-Keynote-Perrin.pdf
The Renault charger sounds exactly same as the "reductive" charger technology from AC Propulsion described below, which Tesla used to license and use, but ditched later on for a separate charger (because the separate charger was actually cheaper, supposedly).
http://www.acpropulsion.com/products-reductive.html
Therefore I think even Nissan/Renault will have to license from ACP if they decide to use the same system in the US.
And anyways, it looks like the Max single phase power is 3kW for the Renault, which is pretty much the slowest you can get in the US for level 2 charging. Tesla is offering 10kW and 20kW right now, so that charger will have to be beefed up.�
Mar 14, 2012
eledille Yes, I should have written "as soon as possible" instead of "now". I have no illusions that this will be ready for the launch.�
Mar 14, 2012
dpeilow I don't see that. I read it as the MIN single phase power is 3kW.�
Mar 14, 2012
eledille Yes, and another one by RWE that shows the same components arranged somewhat differently. I don't understand that diagram, the motor's neutral seems to be connected to the junction box, but the three phase input is going nowhere. I think the RWE diagram had the junction box positioned between 3-p supply, motor and inverter.
Yes and no. AC Propulsion's "reductive charger" uses the motor windings for smoothing the output of a single phase rectifier (ok, ok, inverter) and operates on single phase. Both reuse motor drive IGBTs. The idea is the same, but the reductive charger has a more difficult and somewhat different job because of the single phase input.
Quite possible, I don't know. If ACP's patents are about motor windings, single phase and smoothing, maybe not. If they managed to patent the reuse of motor drive IGBTs for charging, then probably. On the other hand, Renault supposedly has 60 patents on its charger.
It doesn't say that max single phase power is 3 kW, that is only one endpoint of a range. It might be that it supports for instance 32 A single, but probably not 63 A. But I thought you guys were uninterested in three phase - I imagined this would be for Europe and Tesla would install the current chargers for NA.�
Mar 14, 2012
Kevin Sharpe agreed... I was told at the Geneva show by Renault that it was a "minimum of 32A and possibly 63A"�
Mar 14, 2012
dpeilow The minimum maximum�
Mar 14, 2012
stopcrazypp Here's the supported charging modes in the ZOE described in another site:
http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/electric-cars/renault-zoe-with-Plug-in-electric-car-grant.htm�
Mar 14, 2012
stopcrazypp I'm just commenting on the likelihood of it. I certainly know the European market will likely have a different charger (it's going to be the same way for J1772 vs Mennekes), but I see the modular approach more likely (given Tesla has ditched the integrated approach once before and it's easier to swap out a modular charger). The integrated approach will mean licensing issues for Tesla which might end up costing more money anyways (if Renault has patents, which I assume is in Europe, that means Tesla will have to pay both ACP in the US and Renault in Europe).�
Mar 14, 2012
dpeilow No, it says those are charge times, not supported charge modes. Given that it says 'any power level', those could just be examples.�
Mar 14, 2012
Eberhard you have to include the fact, that all of the DC charger with 50kW or quick charger with 90kW will be feed from the 277V/480V 3-phase grid. That would enable any electric car to charger with 22kW or 43kW from the AC-3phase grid as well without the need of an expensive external DC-charger.�
Mar 15, 2012
eledille My comment about American disinterest in three phase was a bit tongue-in-cheek. Sorry. To me, three phase is obviously desirable in NA too, and personally I'm sure that will become more and more evident. The lack of plug and standards support is a challenge, of course.
If the integrated charger supports everything then there is no need to swap it unless it breaks. Breakage is more likely to happen with two components than one. From my own experience, it seems that water intrusion and condensation is the most common cause of electronic component failure in EVs.
The list of charge times are just examples. It will obviously support 16 A, 400 V, this will be the most common circuit size for home charging in three-phase-land. That is not listed, but not supporting it would be completely lunatic. I'm quite sure it will support all the amperages that the standard can communicate between EVSE and vehicle, probably well below 16 A and up to the maximum (63 A).
Single phase maximum is not listed, but I would assume that it can handle 32 A, as it can do 63 A three phase. Kevin wrote that Renault had said 32 A, possibly 63 A, and that makes sense. Supporting 63 A single phase will probably mean higher parts cost, though.
If the alternative is USD 3000 for two extra chargers to get three phase (number off the top of my head, may be wrong), and then at only half the power of a small, inexpensive car, then perhaps they should consider licensing. But patents can often be worked around, you just have to find a sufficiently different way to do the same thing. Maybe that is possible, maybe not. Tesla needs to develop its own IP in this field as soon as possible, if at all possible.
This is really, really important. It enables powerful, inexpensive charging anywhere in Europe and (ignoring incompatible plugs and standards) many places in NA for those that have the technology and the patents. Those that don't will have to pay for access to it or their cars will have to haul more heavy, expensive gear around.�
Mar 15, 2012
stopcrazypp None of the three-phase sockets you guys are talking about are readily accessible to the public. Plus when you are drawing at that rate, the owners of that socket will likely want to charge you for it (esp. given there are little to no 3-phase sockets used in residential settings). And given J1772 has no support for 3-phase whatsoever, unlike the Mennekes connector standard Europe will use, there would be no existing level 2 stations (which have the payment system built in) that would support 3 phase charging. 3-phase will have virtually NO role in the US for that reason. That's why there's not even one automaker planning to offer 3-phase in the US (even the European ones, like BMW with the Active-E). Therefore, Tesla has absolutely no incentive to support 3-phase in the US. Any built in 3-phase support will just cost them extra money in the US and will not play any significant role in helping sales in the US.
Again, I'm not sure if you missed my other comment, but the car you are pointing out not only doesn't include the cost of the battery, it also will be made in about 10x as much volume as the Model S. Plus Renault doesn't have to pay any licensing fees presumably (like Tesla did before). It's just not going to cost the same for Tesla to make it. And keep in mind my point above about the significance of 3-phase in the US.�
Mar 15, 2012
Eberhard I think you don't want to understand what i want to make understandable. If there are several EV are to be charged in one street in the neighborhood , the grid need to be updated to handle the high load. Best way do to it is with the introduction of the 3-phase grid. If a CHAdeMO or 90kW quickcharger can be installed, then also a much simpler and more inexpensive (few hundreds instead of ten thousands of dollars) charging station can be installed too. No special socket needed.�
Mar 15, 2012
Mark Petersen but is still may be interesting, as if you have a 3-phase 32A charger you can use it as a 1-phase 96A, but a 1-phase charger can not be used at 3-phase
it is just like the 2x10Kw charger from tesla uses 1-phase, they use the same phase, but you could technical connect them to 2 different outlet each cable of only 10Kw
the only different will be that 3-phase will be in sync and not at a shifted phase�
Mar 15, 2012
emq Tesla does not pay licence to ACP since Roadster 500, because they used Tesla technology with an isolated charger to accus. ACP reductive charger has grid potential at the accus that is a protection issue. So Tesla should never go back to reductive charger.
Renault Zoe is the first car i know, witch applies 3ph 400V for an integrated charger, 400V x ?2 > 560V DC, Batterie Voltage is 400V DC, There must be a DC/DC Converter in between, so it is different to ACP, no license.
Zoe Charger supports definitly 43kW charging.�
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