Jan 18, 2011
Eberhard with the upcoming need of high-power-charging, 3-phase power is already available in America and will be offered to all customers. the three phase, 4 wire, 480 wye/277 volts will be supported for the Model S. And this is 3-Phase
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Jan 18, 2011
TEG I am a little baffled by this quote or comment. I don't think "all customers" (e.g.: USA residential) are going to be offered 3 phase power.
In the USA it isn't typically brought into residential areas at all.
Also, your posting doesn't mention that it is just a cut & paste of someone else's document.
It seems it is page 42 from here:
http://www.nationalgridus.com/non_html/shared_construction_greenbk.pdf�
Jan 18, 2011
Eberhard That right. its exactly what all american customers is being offered. There is a big need to upgrade the old inefficient low-volt one-phase power-grid to the more efficient 3-phase high-volt smart grid, which is using much less expensive copper.�
Jan 18, 2011
doug I'm all for a move to 3-phase as the US grid get upgraded.
However, be sure to use the�
Jan 18, 2011
TEG I am still a bit confused by these statements. How are all American customers being offered 3-phase now? I think if I call my power company and ask for 3-phase to my house they would say it is not available there, or quote me some astronomical figure to run special power lines to my neighborhood. Is there some regulation or law in the works to require power companies to start bringing 3-phase into all locations? I was not aware that anything was happening in this regard. I thought we would continue to get split phase 240V (120V*2) for most residences for the foreseeable future.
http://www.powerphase.us/distributionofthreephasepowerintheusa.htm
http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-125089.html
http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?2139-3-phase-and-Grid-tie...-what-will-happend/page3�
Jan 19, 2011
Eberhard Your problems is not, that your grid cannot do it, they already do it. your problem is, that your power-companies want to make profit out of it by blackmailing those who are in need for 3-phase. There is more cost involved with your split-phase 110/220V as with 280/480V. But first is the must, second the option.�
Jan 19, 2011
TEG I don't know the reasons, but I think it is true that the power companies in the USA tend to be slow to upgrade.
Maybe it is bureaucratic, or financially motivated... I don't know.
Here is one old article about "old grid" in the USA:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-07-27-power-grid-usat_x.htm
I think if you asked the average person "do you want to spend tax $ or increase your power bill to get 3-phase" the answer would probably be "no".
At the moment there seems to be only a small minority that would want it.
The current system is adequate for overnight charging of a typical EV now. What applications do home customers have that really needs 3-phase?�
Jan 19, 2011
Eberhard Hi TEG, in Germany any electric oven is 3-phase connected. for me its a problem, we do not have higher current support (max 64A) at 230/400V but 3 Phase. But this may be important for public charging as well and makes the balancing easier.�
Jan 19, 2011
TEG In USA, things like electric oven, hot tub heater, and electric clothes dryer are typically like single phase 240V@<50amps.
The clothes dryer gets hot enough compared to gas, and electric oven warms up quickly enough so there are limited complaints.
So, I don't see a strong pull to request 3-phase. Unless you are running industrial equipment, I think the only really desirable application would be quicker EV charging, but we can already fill up existing EV's overnight. Perhaps someday when 100kWh+ packs for 300+ mile range EVs are more common, and people want to use them for very long commutes then there will be a request for more more current to residential locations. But for now, I don't think there is a strong request.�
Jan 19, 2011
PaulM I really don't understand why there is a "big need to upgrade..." and I've never heard that there is any interest to "upgrade", neither from the power company nor from the clients. I live in a recently developed neighborhood that doesn't have access to natural-gas. I have a 200A - 240V (48kW) service which is more than sufficient to meet all my electrical requirements including heating my 3000 ft2 (279 m2) house. In my province (Quebec Canada) it is quite common to heat using cheap hydro power. There is no efficiency to be gained by bringing three phase power into the homes and I can't see electric cars having any impact on this. Clipper creek sells split phase 240v EVSEs from 5.8kw to 19.2 kW. It is great that three phase is common in homes in Europe but I don't see it EVER being implemented in North-America. From what I've read on this forum, most Roadster owners realize that there is no need to charge at more than 8 KW overnight anyway. The only time you need higher power is for roadside quick charges.�
Jan 19, 2011
Eberhard that maybe the main point. in germany you have to pay as a private customer 16cent Low(night) and 26cent High(day). electrical heating here makes only sense with a heatpump. And electric loss is less with higher voltage. if you pay a high price for electric power, to prevent losses makes sense. but even for you, the heavy cable for your hight current are more expensive as the 3phase-cabel for higher voltage (480V). to rectify your 1-phase from ac you need 4 expensive high current diodes, for 3-phase you need only 6 diodes for 3-times the power(at same voltage).�
Jan 19, 2011
TEG Higher voltage can use smaller wires, yes, but is also more dangerous.
There may be a safety concern as part of the reason why 440/480V isn't typically brought to North American homes.�
Jan 19, 2011
Eberhard any voltage higher then 60V is dangerous to human and DC even more then AC. But charging a car with even 1000V at a quick charger is less dangerous then charging with 110V at home, because those charging station communicate with the car first, testing the connection and if everything is fine, the power will be switched on. That means while you handle the cord and connect the plug to your car, there is no voltage at all.�
Jan 19, 2011
TEG Mis-wiring, ground fault, compromised insulation... higher voltage has an easier time getting through your clothes and skin and causing real damage.
I agree, 60V starts to become dangerous, but I think the higher the voltage the more the danger happens.
Although I wouldn't recommend it, and thankfully it has been many years, I have been shocked by 120V a couple times, and can still talk about it.
Also, getting an AC shock is preferable over DC!�
Jan 19, 2011
PaulM The loss due to the somewhat higher current on 240V vs 480v from the transformer to my house (maybe 60 meters) and then to the appliance is virtually zero. Having three phase power would not make any noticeable difference. As for the higher costs of the wiring, ripping out what is already there in order to install three phase would be FAR MORE expensive. You can extol the benefits of three phase power as much as you like, it's just not gonna happen in North-America, PERIOD.
Will Tesla implement three phase charging to better support the infrastructure in Germany (Europe)? Maybe, but since they are an American company, their primary market is on 240v so that will be their priority.
I've read many posts here on how having to charge from one phase (of a three phase service) is not ideal and I fully understand, but it seems that you are beating this subject to death. Do you really think that by saying how better three phase is and that by saying "3-phase power is already available in America and will be offered to all customers" (which is completely false) will magically make it happen?
The electrical power companies have invested a lot of money into the current infrastructure and even in new subdivisions they still don't offer 3 phase to residential customers, there's just no benefit. Also, don't forget that all our appliances are designed to run on 120v or 240v.
Please note, my comments are for the residential market only. Most commercial properties are served by three phase power. If this could help push Tesla to support 3 phase charging I don't know. All I know is that there is only one North-American standard for charging (J1772) and it's 240v only. My guess is that for 3 phase and quick charging the charger will be off board.
By the way, to add insult to injury, electricity in Quebec (98% hydro) is about 6 cents/kWh (all day).�
Jan 19, 2011
Doug_G 220V is much more dangerous than 110V. Sure if you grab a copper water pipe in one hand and 110V in the other you might stop your heart, but you kinda have to work at it. It's much easier with 220V.�
Jan 19, 2011
Eberhard I use 50m cord running from my Apartment to my carport. When i charge with 16A my voltage drops from 230V under 210 causing the error-message extension-cord problem detected. This means my loss on the wire and cord is already more then 10%. Because i usually do overnight-charing i reduce the current down do 13A or 10A. The extension cord has 2,5 mm. 3-phase charging is simple more efficient and the cable is more easy to handle.�
Jan 20, 2011
PaulM 50m is a very long extension cord (164ft)! It is never recommended to use such long extension cords. I did a quick search and found the following: http://www.renovation-headquarters.com/electrical-extensioncords.htm
If you scroll down you'll find a chart with a note that for longer than 100 feet you need to go up one size. In order to pull over 15 amps, you would need 8 AWG or 3.3mm wire. You should have a plug installed in the carport to avoid this issue.
Now you will say that this proves your point since 60m of 3.3mm wire would be quite expensive. I don't know about the electrical code in Germany but I have a hard time believing that a 60m extension cord to run 480v would be permitted.
In my case, I have a 4 AWG wire (5.2mm) going from my panel to my garage (only 3m) which will allow me to charge at 56 A (13.4kW) with virtually no voltage drop. This is way overkill as it is looking like the standard will be to install a 30A EVSE on a 40A circuit. This is the same as a dryer outlet and less than the 50A used by an electric stove. This is the norm in North-America. Any new house gets a minimum 100A panel although the electrical company (in Quebec anyway) pre-wires any new house with 200A service (no charge).�
Jan 20, 2011
Eberhard This is only a temporal usage until i will get a 400V/32A 3-phase power-socket installed (6mm) . If you want to have more then 230V/16A you have to use 3-phase socket. there is no one-phase socket with more then 16A available in Germany.�
Jan 20, 2011
PaulM Can you draw the full 32A from a single phase? If so that would be a "decent" charge rate. The 6mm you indicate, is that the wire size? If so that seems WAY too much.
Have you read through the following thread?; http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/3157-Charging-the-Roadster-EU-Style?
Actually this discussion should probably be in that thread. They have discussed this issues in great detail and have examined many possible solutions, unfortunately nothing simple.
You know, I fully understand your issue and I sympathize. I certainly hope Tesla will have a solution for you since the way it is, they are forcing you to cause an imbalanced load on your grid. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be investing much effort in making any such upgrades to the Roadster. I am even amazed that they still haven't transitioned to the new J1772 standard (as opposed to their proprietary connector). These new EVSE's are starting to be installed all over and the EV with the greatest numbers on the road can't use them. Some owner have even developed their own adapters. Tesla is probably concentrating on the development of the Model S (which hopefully will support three phase charging).�
Aug 15, 2011
Eberhard Thats the opposite side of EV. With that little battery capacity like Nissan leaf or the iMiev, your are very depending on a working and dense infrastructure based on DC. With faster AC-onboard charger your are less depend. You charge where you are and as long as you can.�
Aug 15, 2011
Kevin Sharpe a 1750 mile trip around the UK in a Leaf is expected to take place in September...
"I want to take my Nissan Leaf around Britain. I have to use existing charging infrastructure so it makes sense to visit all the Nissan Leaf dealers where the majority of fast chargers currently are."
http://mynissanleafstory.blogspot.com/2011/08/1750-miles-in-10-days-nissan-leaf.html
while I have no concerns about the reliability of the ZCW Charging Stations that are being used on the trip, I will be very surprised if all of the DC Chargers are working and think this will generate very negative mainstream press if the trip fails...�
Aug 15, 2011
Kevin Sharpe fully agree and we have postponed the purchase of Leaf's for my Company's until the 2013 model arrives with improved AC Charging that allows reasonable opportunity charging (something I'm doing today at 32A during a company meeting at a hotel).�
Aug 15, 2011
Eberhard i am going to accompany TRON on his challenge "to go east". its really boring to charge on a 32A socket and you know, you could cut charging time to a third if you could do 3-phase charging or at least to half the time if you could convert 3-phase to single phase, high current. Its not the problem through the night, there we can fill up from empty to full within 8hour on 32A, but on a daybreak - you only can do an extended sightseeing, while charging. Therefore you go quite slow, enjoying the ride, get new distance record or new "lowest consumption records" to reach the next hotel where you can have the next full charge through the night.�
Aug 15, 2011
markwj P.S. It's not just Europe that has domestic 3 phase. The feed to my house in Hong Kong is 3x400amp. Limit is the circuit breaker, meter and MCB.
I used to have 3x60Amp for that, and recently upgraded to 3x150amp to be able to install a 70amp Tesla HPC on one of the phases - not ideal. Something like 3x16amp could easily have been done without upgrade and would have been more balanced to (easier on) the grid,
This is residential. There are about twenty houses around me, and they all have individual 3x400amp feeds. High rise apartments here are usually 3x60amp.�
Oct 2, 2011
widodh Ok, this is what I've learned tonight from the Model S event at the factory.
As you might have seen in other threads there is going to be a new, Tesla-only connector for charging a Model S, no standard J1772 or "Mennekes" connector.
I've poked around a bit about the three-phase charging and it will NOT be available at this time. I stressed it enough to the power-train designer (forgot his name) that as a European lack of three-phase could really be a dealbreaker.
I absolutely love the Model S! It's a gorgeous vehicle with so many goodies and stuff, I really, really, really like it, but the lack of 3-phase gave the event a bit of a bad taste for me (personally).
The feeling I got is that Tesla still believes in their own propriety connector and charging at home. The argument for not having 3-phase support in the car was "The battery is so big, you don't need to charge that much", rubbish to me..
Anyway, the connector they've come up with will handle AC and DC over the same connector and pins, they said nothing currently available could do that. I pointed him to Mennekes and he turned away from that.
I tried to stress him that lacking three-phase you'll be limited to 16A (80%) or 32A (20%) most of the time. With that huge 90kWh battery that simply sucks. Charging times of about 15 hours on 32A.
I didn't get a promise from him, but after talking for a while he said "We'll come up with something that works, we have more then a year to go", we shook hands that and I left.
The current status is that the Model S does currently not have 3-phase support, it does however support DC. With a converter it should be able to connect to CHaDEMO chargers.
They will look into the three-phase charging again and come up with something. I told him it should be portable, not a small DC charger for home, since all European charging stations have three-phase.
I'm really thinking about writing a good letter to Tesla which we should all sign to emphasize it again to them: Europeans don't want three-phase charging, they NEED it
Other than that, I really do like the Model S, what a beautiful car!�
Oct 2, 2011
jkirkebo Some might. I don't care about it, no three-phase charging stations exist in Norway and 16A single phase is enough for home charging for us. CHAdeMO is a must though, did they promise CHAdeMO would work or is that your guess ? Lack of CHAdeMO charging would be a definite deal breaker for me, without it the Leaf will have the longer range in a day and be more suited to road trips...�
Oct 2, 2011
dpeilow It's only a matter of time before they arrive in Norway. There are now dozens in the UK.�
Oct 2, 2011
AndrewBissell @widodh I'll sign your letter to Tesla emphasising the NEED (not want) for 3-phase and CHAdeMO Model S charging in Europe�
Oct 2, 2011
jkirkebo No plans so far at least. Everything that is getting installed now is either 16A single phase or CHAdeMO. Most of the country does not have access to 400V three-phase either, just 230V three-phase which probably won't be supported by the car manufacturers as only Norway and Albania use that system (IT distribution grid, not TN like the rest of Europe).�
Oct 2, 2011
Adm I'll third that!�
Oct 2, 2011
doug Yeah, I guess the answer to the question posed by this thread title is "single phase for now".
I have to say that the lack of 3 phase support seems short sighted and I suppose US centric. Being limited to 16A at home to charge a 90kWh pack would be just nuts.�
Oct 2, 2011
TEG Do keep in mind that Tesla has a lot of data from habits of Roadster owners now. I think they alluded to the fact that most charging would be done overnight, and they have some idea how far people will drive their vehicles daily. If they really think they can get Tesla standard DC fast charge in "all the right places" for anyone traveling longer distances, then their approach might work. You can see that Nissan picked a similar model for the Leaf (16A AC for routine home charging, and CHAdeMO fast DC for longer trips.)
As we have been seeing, the public infrastructure can be a "chicken and egg" sort of problem. If Tesla have shied away from CHAdeMO or the new SAE DC as their preferred fast charge connection, then they would likely need to get started ahead of customer deliveries on the high speed DC charger deployments. Those things can take time with permits, construction, etc. As US Leaf owners can attest, releasing the cars first with the expectation of a parallel public DC fast charge network deployment is frustrating for the early customers who get stuck waiting for the high speed chargers to arrive.
Given lack of available locations, parking, funding, and other reasons that would encourage standardized infrastructure, I am fairly disappointed that we already have multiple standards for DC fast charging coming out to compete with each other. The infamous "beta vs VHS" analogy. I guess we go back to the mention of the combo machines that exist during transitions (e.g.: beta+VHS player machine, DVD+VHS machine). Maybe the DC charger companies will have to release stations that have CHAdeMO & SAE & Tesla plugs all at the same parking spot? The CHAdeMO and SAE DC plugs are fairly big. Do you really want to carry an adapter from one of those to Tesla connector whenever you take a long drive?
I would have to assume that Tesla thinks they will convince the world to adopt use of their connector for high speed DC, and not some big adapters.�
Oct 2, 2011
GSP While the Model S as a whole is awesome, the proprietary connector and lack of 3-phase support is very disappointing.
Tesla's approach of providing one 10 kW on-board charger standard, and two 10 kW chargers as a option, sets them up nicely to offer three 10 kW onboard chargers in Europe (US fleet and business owners also could us this with commercial 3-phase outlets). I'm pretty sure they could connect one charger to each phase, and 30 kW, compatible with many European charge points, would be a very nice improvement over what is possible with the Roadster.
However, the proprietary connector can't support 3-phase, and it is propritary! This requires everyone to use an adaptor of some kind, and Tesla chargers will be useless for other cars.
Just being able to use a standard J1772 charger directly is much more elegant than even a small adaptor. In Europe this may not be so bad, since sockets are used at charge points, and EV owners carry their own charging cables. Tesla owners can just carry a propritary-to-Mennekiess cable, but can only draw from one phase. If only the proprietary connector could handle 3-phase, but it can't!
Given this mess, what can be done? Best would be for Tesla to offer Mennekes connector and 3x10kW chargers for Europe, and option for J1772 connector in US (without adaptors). Better yet is a standard J1772 connector in US, with the proprietary connector for fast charging. I wouldn't mind using a Tesla-to-ChadeMo adaptor for fast charging, since this would be infrequent. Using an adaptor every day is a PIA, and I don't want a Tesla proprietary charger at home, since it won't work with my other cars.
GSP�
Oct 2, 2011
doug This.�
Oct 2, 2011
GSP It will be interesting to see if Tesla releases all the specifications into the public domain, and tries to convince SAE, IEEE, ISO to publish design standards, and to convince other firms to adopt it.
Step one is up to Tesla alone. Steps two and three seem less likely. This looks like IBM's micro channel PS/2 bus, and we know how that turned out.
GSP�
Oct 2, 2011
vfx Not really.�
Oct 2, 2011
dpeilow Do we know for sure that European models are getting this connector? There will be a multitude of other changes, why not a different connector?�
Oct 2, 2011
cinergi Someone there said something like the following for Roadster charging stats: 20% 120v, 70+% < 40amps, leaving <10% for anything greater than 10kW. Which is why the Model S will likely come standard with ONE on-board 10kW unit (for all those using UMC) and you'd need to get another one to support the 80-amp HPC.
Those 10 kW units weigh about 30 pounds each apparently.�
Oct 2, 2011
VolkerP As mention much earlier (with explanation in quotations, please jump back if curios):
one suggestion was:
3 separate chargers require much more (heavy, costly, inefficient, and bulky) components than one charger taking 3phase input for the reasons quoted by Eberhard. So I doubt this is the best way to go.
The good thing is that the Tesla power train already deals with 400V 3phase AV. The PEM converts 375V 20kw 3phase AC to DC when braking regen. The 20kW figure was mentioned by one of Tesla's drivers giving test rides at the Oct 1st event.
Is there a reason Tesla can't run 400V 32A 3phase though the PEM? Well, upgrade to 64A and it will make full use of Mennekes' capabilities!
Quoting Roadsters usually taking no more than 8kW is just silly. In Europe you have to go to lengths getting allowed to draw more than 32A from one phase (240V) in residential area. And in Hotels you stay over night. If the Roadster had 3phase support and a Mennekes port, I am pretty sure Tesla would find many more AC high speed chargings (road trips) in the logs!
A fast charging DC infrastructure is not only hindered by the initial cost of roll out, but even more by the continued effort to maintain & repair these. Vehicle on board technology has it's limits, but it gets maintained (and eventually updated) by the vehicle owner!
Sigh. Long post, short conclusion: Wido, count me in.�
Oct 2, 2011
cinergi The Model S charging system is completely separate from the drive inverter (PEM). The inverter is not used for A/C charging at all.�
Oct 3, 2011
Talkredius + me
+ Eberhard (at the moment in CA)
and Tesla is more MS like than Apple like, "640 kB is enough for everybody"
A short glimpse on my (+ other )Roadster odometer would convince everyone at Tesla otherwise.
I'll sign your letter and perhaps write my own letter too.
I think it is a good idea to send the letter(s) via Mail, an email is so easily forwarded or deleted.
I want to to collect all the arguments from Tesla and put our points against them like :
"charging is done mostly overnight"
yes of course if only single phase 32 A is available I have to wait 12 hours and have stay overnight in a hotel on a business trip
but we should open a different thread for this�
Oct 3, 2011
widodh My letter is online, please direct your attention to: Endorse my letter to Tesla for supporting 3-phase charging for the Model S�
Oct 3, 2011
Eberhard i talk to JB Straubel yesterday. He mentioned the DC as quickcharging. There i could connect any external charger i like. he mentioned also the problems wih powercorrection with 3 phases. i learnt later that there are up to two 10 kW charger on board. it may be possible to pu them on different phases. but there is not enough space to place a mennekes inlet socket into the small hole for the new sleek tesla connector. it was also said, that a person was send over to germany to talk with RWE and Vattenfall about the need for 3-phase charging. the result was, that 3-phase charging is not important. i hope, that the homologation process will force the 3-phase charging for higher rates then 16A as being the standard in europe.�
Oct 3, 2011
widodh Who said that 3-phase was not important? Tesla or RWE?
And I don't see all available charging stations being converted to high power 1-phase connectors.
Even 2x 10kW would better, that would result in a max of 14kW while charging on 2x32A, much better then 1x 32A!
I don't mind giving up some cargo-space in the back (there is more then enough), but seriously, charging a Model S on 16A... That takes ages.
They also didn't mention which DC charging they would use, so that's still a guess.�
Oct 3, 2011
Eberhard tesla make external DC chargers out of 9x 10 kW on-board chargers, powered by 3-phases 277/400V with 120A. Tesla wants to install those chargers in Europe too.�
Oct 3, 2011
Kevin Sharpe sounds cheap :wink:�
Oct 3, 2011
Kevin Sharpe these seems to contradict your previous conversation with JB Straubel regarding 3-Phase support. Do you think they understand the importance of 3-Phase in Europe?�
Oct 3, 2011
Kevin Sharpe and me (without it I suspect I'll be able to travel further in a day in the Roadster than the Model S because of the UK HPC network)�
Oct 3, 2011
GSP I think the Volt and Leaf have 3.3 kW chargers partly due to US utility companies suggestion to automakers that it will be easier for them to manage. The people consulted at the German utilities may have been thinking along the same lines. "Limit them to 16A single phase, less load on local transformers, and less generator load on summer afternoons when everyone gets home from work and plugs in."
Rather short-sighted in my opinion, since it reduces the utility of EVs.
GSP�
Oct 3, 2011
GSP 3x10kW chargers may not be the absolute ideal 3-phase solution, but what is needed now is a workable 3-phase solution. Three chargers and a Mennekes, or appropriate proprietary connector, will work very nicely, and greatly increase the utility of the Model S in Europe.
Later, when there is enough volume to pay for the development of dedicated 3-phase chargers, I expect they will be offered, and the European OEMs will be first to do so.
GSP�
Oct 3, 2011
rabar10 Sounds to me like a good way to take advantage of the higher production rates of those 10kW chargers, since they will be making 20,000-40,000 annually for Model S consumption. They are already designed to be paralleled (one or two in the car)...
I would argue that high prices of existing DC fast chargers have more to do with recouping engineering and manufacturing costs for low-volume production than with intrinsically high-priced parts/components...�
Oct 3, 2011
GSP I agree that the 9x10kW will be a good way to leverage the investment made for the on-board charger.
I also hope that Tesla offers a 3x10kW external charger for Europeans to install in their homes. This should be a great solution for home charging. If only DC fast charging were widely available on the road.........
GSP
PS. The 3x10kW external charger would also be great for small business owners in the US to "fast" charge at work, or for fleets that don't need the full 90kW system.�
Oct 3, 2011
Kevin Sharpe sorry but I don't think this proprietary system will compete with CHAdeMO given that Nissan alone expects to sell 5,000 of the new ~�8K (~$12K) unit by March 2016
http://www.nissaninsider.co.uk/nissan-unveils-new-chargers/
I'm not a big fan of CHAdeMO but with thousands on the ground in the next few years it makes sense to use those Charger networks IMO.�
Oct 3, 2011
Kevin Sharpe don't forget that the Leaf gets 32A single phase charging in 2013�
Oct 3, 2011
rabar10 I'm sure you're more aware of market forces and infrastructure rollout in Europe than I, so you may well be right.
That said, I'm sure an adapter will be created to take advantage of the CHAdeMO infrastructure. The requirements of such an adapter were briefly discussed on this thread: What charge port connector - Tesla Motors Club
It won't be elegant, but it would at least be usable.
(Not trying to argue the decision of Tesla making yet-another-custom-power-connector, just that Tesla will most likely create an adapter, and even if they don't we will see aftermarket adapters to fill the void)�
Oct 3, 2011
jkirkebo There might be an easy solution for 3-phase charging.
The existing chargers take AC in, rectifies it and runs it through a DC-DC converter. It is easier to rectify 3-phase than single phase. If the chargers can take DC input instead of AC (no reason they should not be able to do that, DC will just pass through the internal rectifiers) one can use an external 3-phase rectifier built into a (bigger) version of the UMC and feed the chargers DC through the Tesla plug.
3x16A could provide 10kW of power, 3x32a 20kW.
Does anybody know how big the rectifier would be and typical loss (=heat) ?�
Oct 3, 2011
TEG So, I spoke directly with people who would be in a position to know, and when I asked them about that they indicated that they are keeping it proprietary for now. I gather their focus is getting their solution working for themselves with their own control over everything, and they will think about the option of opening it up to others later.
I mentioned some concern that the Roadster power connector was kept proprietary and the response was:
"That is a bit of a different story. We were concerned that the supplier had a limit to how much of that hardware they could produce, and we didn't want to have supply problems because others were getting the parts instead of us." We shall see if they make their new plug/socket as an open standard or leave it Tesla proprietary.�
Oct 3, 2011
widodh That is a option ofcourse! A small external DC charger would be fine with me. I don't see Tesla changing the charge port.�
Oct 3, 2011
TEG Just because some people want it doesn't guarantee they will build it. I don't think it is a priority for them right now.�
Oct 3, 2011
Doug_G Perhaps this is the solution, a 3-phase to DC UMC-like device. You could use it in your garage, or throw it in the frunk and take it on the road. Certainly storage capacity isn't an issue with the Model S.�
Oct 3, 2011
Eberhard JB Straubel told me, that there is no standard bridge rectifier, they use IGBTs instead as being more efficient and allows direct power control.�
Oct 3, 2011
jkirkebo I'm afraid not. Well, I'm certainly not buying one before they have CHAdeMO compatibility. I can't see swapping out the (soon to be delivered) Leaf for a car with a shorter daily range
�
Oct 3, 2011
jkirkebo It would still work if the chargers can accept DC input. I don't know enough about IGBTs to answer that.�
Oct 3, 2011
widodh What they told at the event, the same pins will be used for AC and DC charging.
So a external 3-phase to DC "UMC" would work.
Don't know if it can be small enough though to be portable.
If that "UMC" would talk EVSE it could also be connected to existing charging stations and be able to charge there. It's not the solution I want, but it's better than charging on 16A single-phase.�
Oct 3, 2011
jkirkebo That the pins can be used for DC charging has no bearing on this problem. Normal DC charging har an offboard charger connecting directly to the cars battery. A complete charger is much too big to lug around and much too expensive to leave outside for charging.
I propose just a part of the charger is offboard, namely the rectifier. Then to feed the DC from the external rectifier to the car's onboard charger.�
Oct 3, 2011
dpeilow I know who it was that visited RWE and I remember that shortly afterwards Tesla went cold on being involved with infrastructure. I don't think it's coincidence that about a month ago RWE announced they were installing CHAdeMO along the autobahn. It seems that RWE have seen the Leaf get early traction and jumped horses to the DC side.
I think Tesla got told what they wanted to hear.
It doesn't change the fact that a 44 kW three phase socket is a few tens of pounds and can be installed for a few hundred.�
Oct 3, 2011
jkirkebo Usually not. At least half the cost of installing the fast charge stations over here (Norway) is delivery of electricity and site preparation. 3x63A for a Mennekes-socket or 3x80A for a CHAdeMO unit costs roughly the same, typically around �30k. The price of the actual fast charger is falling rapidly, soon down to less than �8k. So maybe �40k for a 50kW CHAdeMO unit or �30k for a 3x63A Mennekes EVSE. Not that big a difference.�
Oct 3, 2011
TEG Wouldn't there need to be a current regulator somewhere? Since they claim 90kW high speed DC charging, I would assume that the internal (2x 10kW) chargers might not be able to handle that (?), and so the DC mode might redirect the power directly to the battery (?)
I guess I am a little skeptical that they could do this scheme you describe with the on-board chargers handling DC charging with an external rectifier. If they could do such a thing, wouldn't it still be limited to 20kW total charge rate? Maybe that is enough for 3phase European "home charging", but they would still need another way to kick it up to 90kW for "road trip public charging". Would the car need to be able to direct DC input either through the chargers (for cases with only an external rectifier) as well as, alternatively, directly to the battery pack for charging sessions with an external 90kW charger?
Well, I am just musing / pondering here - maybe I don't really understand what you are suggesting or how this can work.�
Oct 3, 2011
Kevin Sharpe I have seen several hotels with spare 3x125A capacity... the difference between 3-Phase "mennekes" and CHAdeMO deployment is HUGH if you are installing at an existing site. Indeed in the very heart of Scotland (Aviemore) David and I identified many, many sub-stations in the new ski resort that would support multiple low cost "mennekes" deployments.
I'm expecting the ZCW 32A "mennekes" Charging Station to retail at �250 early next year. I see no reason why a 3x63A version would retail for more than �500.... we need to reset our expectations and remember this is hardly worth calling 'high power'.�
Oct 3, 2011
doug Really odd to not support 3-phase. Tesla went through the trouble to design a battery pack that could be fast swapped (with their own custom designed quick connect/disconnect electrical and water fittings) "just in case" that idea became popular. Seems to me the argument for 3-phase in Europe is strong enough to meet that standard.
Well perhaps like someone suggested they'll come up with another connector for Europe that supports 3-phase. Maybe not Mennekes, but something that can be adapted to 3-phase Mennekes with a cable... yet another adapter cable.�
Oct 3, 2011
dpeilow I'm not really sure why it needs to be any more expensive than a pilot generator, contactor and this: PCE Wall Socket 63A 400V 3P+E IP67
�
Oct 3, 2011
Kevin Sharpe no reason... cost drivers today are the "mennekes" socket and pilot generator... everything else is mainstream electrical equipment�
Oct 4, 2011
EV_de How about this : ?
kind of compromise ....�
Oct 4, 2011
doug Haha, that's great!�
Oct 4, 2011
jkirkebo Correct. I proposed this solution so people in Europle could charge at more than 3.7kW at home (16A single phase). 3x16A is 11kW, much better. Most cannot spare 32A on a single phase, the intake to the house might be 3x32A or 3x40A.
You could also charge at public 3x32A or 3x63A charge points at the 20kW rate instead of being limited to 7.3kW or 14.5kW.�
Oct 4, 2011
jkirkebo Hotels and ski resorts have no need for CHAdeMO chargers, you usually spend 8-16 hours at those places. How many motorway service stations have 3x125A to spare ?
I have seen cost estimates for the CHAdeMO stations in Norway, the installations range from �50k to $75k. The actual charger is much less than that so a large portion is the cost of trenching/digging, running conduit and cables, connection fees etc.�
Oct 4, 2011
Talkredius and guess what over 95 % of the installed RWE chargers are : 3 x 32 A�
Oct 4, 2011
Doug_G Yes, it's quite common for high power rectifiers to use IGBTs and switch them instead of using diodes. It results in lower voltage drop across the device, which results in more power transferred and less heating of the semiconductor.�
Oct 4, 2011
Doug_G The kit would no doubt be very large for DC Fast Charge, but a smaller unit could convert 3-phase to DC at a lower current.�
Oct 4, 2011
VolkerP Tesla states that basically 10kW is more than enough to charge my Model S from AC.
It makes no sense to lug around a bulky external kit in my trunk just to get that little power into my car at home and on a visit to friends.
I want that built in.
Please make an internal 3phase charger that replaces the U.S. 10kw single phase unit. I know, low numbers, high price...
And for the connector, oh well, the opening is too small to have the 55mm diameter Mennekes plug go in there.
Tesla really screwed up this one.�
Oct 4, 2011
dpeilow
By jove, I think he's done it!�
Oct 4, 2011
VolkerP In the original picture, the two large pins are for 200amps DC or up to 80 amps AC.
If we want high power 3 phase AC charging, the third pin added by EV_de can be reduced in size to serve up to 80 amps. That gives 3x240Vx80A=57kW.
If Tesla limits on board AC charging to 22kW due to space/thermal constraints, the additional pin must supply 32A. Large reduction in size!
I am pretty sure such a "nimble" pin can be added to the plug in the suggested location.�
Oct 5, 2011
AndrewBissell From the beginning I have been wondering about that strange three-pointed slot (and it's counterpart protrusion on the socket). I know it exists to act as a guide - but with a suitable change in materials within each slot and on the three points of the protrusion on the socket it could be a three Live current carrier.
Maybe this was always the (backup?) plan. Maybe it's happenstance. Maybe I'm wrong and it just couldn't work.
Btw it seems this approach is at least passivy safe if not interoperable. A US car exported to Europe plugged into a 3phase Tesla charger would have metal 3 Lives butting plastic guide protrusion. A European Model S sent to the US would still plug in with it's part metal protrusions in the plastic guide slot.
Assuming the Euro car had both a 10kW 1 phase and 22/43 kW 3 phase charger, it would charge whichever kind of station plugged into it.
Equally European Tesla stations would either be DC or single phase (using the main pins) or 3-phase, presumably offer (by negotiation with the car) one phase via the main pins or three-phase via the aux pins (so cars sold in countries without common 3-phase in Europe needn't buy the 3-phase charger).�
Oct 5, 2011
Kevin Sharpe I stopped at the Castle Hotel in Taunton again yesterday and used the HPC. If the hotel had a CHAdeMO charger then I know large numbers of Leaf drivers would use it as well.
Remember that the Hotel has a restaurant and they allow you to charge for free in return for the purchase of a meal or drinks.
I can't comment on costs in Norway. In the UK we are looking at a fraction of those installation costs and it's now cheap enough that Leaf drivers are banding together to purchase the chargers.�
Oct 5, 2011
markwj The model S can have 2x 10kW chargers onboard, and the connector has 2 hot pins, right? Could I be possible/easier to arrange that to pull from 2 of the 3 phases? Better than a single phase, but still unbalanced (which may make it unworkable in some markets).
[ P.S. I have little experience with anything above 5V, other than being electrocuted several times as a kid, so the above is just a question and is probably completely impractical ]�
Oct 5, 2011
jkirkebo Interesting point. The chargers would have to accept 400V input. This would yield 6.4kW from 16A and 12.8kW from 32A.�
Oct 5, 2011
widodh I guess it will not work, since you don't have a neutral pin then anymore, which is also used for the communication with the charging station (EVSE).
in Endorse my letter to Tesla for supporting 3-phase charging for the Model S the idea came up again, a external 3-phase -> DC charger which is used to do 3-phase charging.
That is portable, since you would be hauling it with you, not built into the car, it would be somewhere in the thunk. When charging you would have to get it out, it's a new risk of theft and damage.
What a lot of US people don't seem to understand, as Europeans we are limited to 7kW AC without 3-phase (32A at 230V)! We don't want something like 50kW AC charging, but at least 11kW (3x16A) or 22kW (3x32A) would be a great step. Everything above that can be done with a external DC charger which does the real fast charging.
Th�t is the whole point here, we are not able to charge fast enough on AC, while 3-phase AC is widely available throughout Europe, it is everywhere!�
Oct 5, 2011
jkirkebo Huh ? How is the Neutral pin (or L1,L2 for that sake) having anything to do with EVSE communication ? I was sure all communication was on designated pins, not over the power delivery pins ?
And how would an EVSE then work on 230V single phase where you often have two hot pins and no neutral ?�
Oct 5, 2011
TEG http://www.sae.org/standardsdev/news/P111164.pdf
�
Oct 5, 2011
TEG They tend to put various voltages (e.g., 120V, 208V or 240V) as just two hots with no neutral over the same two pins.
Now it sounds like Tesla plans to put high voltage DC over the same two pins. The charger behind the socket will need to be flexible to handle all the various power types (all single phase or DC) that may come across those two power pins. I can't be sure if they would also handle PLC on the two power pins, or expect all signaling to happen over the two dedicated signaling pins. Some of the design likely is intended to make it easy to interface to other standards (like the SAE DC combo) if they need to.�
Oct 6, 2011
hcsharp The key information we seem to be missing is what DC charge control capability will be in the Model S to start with. At least some people have suggested it might not be capable of limiting the current after reading the pilot signal. If it is capable then a portable adapter solution should not be too bulky or expensive or heavy to implement. A lot of people would rather not have to use an adapter when traveling. On the other hand, it's a pretty big compromise putting all the hardware in the car when 98% of the time it's not needed there and you will be better off having it in your garage. Perhaps even the American cars should get rid of the AC input so the only thing in the car is the DC charger.
Does anyone know for sure what the capability of the on-board DC charger is?�
Oct 6, 2011
dpeilow We've been discussing that here: What charge port connector?�
Oct 6, 2011
TEG Basically forget everything you know about how AC charging works when thinking about DC charging.
Generally DC goes straight to the battery pack so the "charger" is now outside of the car.
Some of the circuits in the car's charger may still be in play to monitor battery things like SOC, temp, etc, and communicate those to the "offboard" charger so that it can do the right things in terms of current limiting, and such.�
Oct 12, 2011
zdre My belief has been that making a 3-phase rectifier is not any more expensive in parts than making a 1-phase rectifier of the same power output. I see no reason why Tesla could not make a 3-phase 10kW charging module for the European market and add two smaller pins to the new connector. However, I have no idea how they have actually designed the chargers, so my ideas may not apply.
Electrical engineers... please correct me if I am wrong.
The AC components in a 3-phase rectifiers need to handle only a third of the current of the AC components in a single-phase rectifiers (unless they are made to also handle high-power single-phase). 3-phase also requires only 1.5 times of rectifying components, not 3 times. There is also almost no filtering needed for the DC current since rippling is minimal.�
Oct 14, 2011
Eberhard you are absolute correct�
Oct 19, 2011
linaser Hi all
I asked the guys at evtec, a small but highly capable company in Switzerland, if they are planing to release their MobileFastCharger (3-Phase AC to DC charger) in a version, which is compatible with Model S.
This is what i got back:
I'll try to translate this for the non german speaking members here:
They say, that they're willing to support all major EV's, but haven't started development yet because Model S won't be available until next year. In the second Part, they say, that they hope, that Tesla will indeed support CHAdeMO (with adapter/converter?), which would make their job a lot easier.
So, in my opinion, there seems at least to be a realistic chance, that we can get a charger, which we can use to charge up our Model S in a acceptable time.
- Sven�
Oct 19, 2011
Kevin Sharpe I had a very similar conversation today with a major European DC Charger manufacturer. Again, they are happy to support the Tesla Model S but it will all depend on the number of cars on the road when they come to justify the development costs...�
Oct 19, 2011
dpeilow The problem with EVtec's charger is that it costs �14900. Do you want to leave that loose by the car? Even if you can lock it, there's always the risk of someone might drive over it.
Anyway we mentioned these guys in one of the threads so let's not rake over old ground.�
Oct 23, 2011
cinergi Curious -- are there any applicable and relatively inexpensive phase converters that would allow you to provide ~20kW at ~240 VAC 1 phase from 3 phase (and then us My cursory searches are showing some large and heavy equipment but this stuff's outside my area of expertise -- e.g. Visicomm Industries)�
Oct 23, 2011
TEG 
�
Oct 23, 2011
cinergi :tongue:
I suppose a 20KW DC charger (3 phase AC input) would be easier -- but would need to be a supported Tesla solution. Both of course mean external equipment.�
Oct 23, 2011
Eberhard I cannot carry a converter with 300kg for what an onboard charger with 12kg can do? (and cheaper as well).�
Oct 24, 2011
widodh I was just reading about the introduction of the Renault Fluence ZE and the Kangoo ZE. They will be launched with a single phase 16A charger, but somewhere next year the onboard charger will get a upgrade to 3x16A or 3x32A. Both cars will not support DC charging, but instead they will use 'medium' power AC charging.
The battery packd are 22kWh, so with 3x32A you'd get a 80% SoC in about 50 mins.
I'm not a fan in french cars, but this is a move I like!�
Oct 24, 2011
jkirkebo I do not like it. Fine, put in the 3-phase charger but don't leave out the CHAdeMO port. We have lots of CHAdeMO chargers here but no public 3x32A spots. No 3x16A either, for that matter. Only 16A single phase...�
Dec 8, 2011
eledille jkirkebo, this is partly misleading and partly just plain wrong.
Many countries distribute 200-ish volts of three phase, not just Norway. US, Japan, Taiwan, Brazil, Mexico etc.
Supporting different voltages in a single device is not very expensive. You need the voltage regulator anyway, stepping voltage up from 230 or 400 is a minor difference. There's no reason why car manufacturers would not support 230 V, there are huge amounts of 230 V three phase equipment in Norway, and most of it was built by foreign companies - Siemens, ABB, GE, etc. Those interested in selling more cars in Norway can easily come up with a solution. Any 400 V three phase plug will happily conduct 230 V three phase too.
400 V three phase is widespread all over Norway, just not as much in homes. Norway has a mixed IT and TN grid. New transformers supplying new buildings are usually 400 V TN. If 400 V is not available, then a small 230/400 V transformer capable of supplying a single 63 A socket costs about the same as the charge pole (approximately 1.5k to 3k euro). The larger the transformer, the lower the cost per socket. A transformer is a much simpler and less expensive piece of equipment than a DC charger.
The CHAdeMO chargers are connected to 400 V three phase anyway, see (*) below.
To get a grant from Transnova (i.e. the government), spare three phase capacity must be present, see (*) below. Adding Mennekes charge points is as simple as installing a charge pole and connecting the wires.
Transnova does not prefer DC. The requirement is "DC or 3-phase AC of at least 44 kW".
(*) From the Transnova quick charger grant application guide (http://www.transnova.no/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Program-for-hurtiglading-P6-2011.pdf):
"So far, only CHAdeMO has been launched in the Norwegian market. Other international standards based on direct current are several years into the future, while three phase alternating current based quick charging is expected in European cars from 2012. To achieve the goals that Transnova has set with respect to the introduction of electric vehicles in Norway, getting started with testing of quick charging systems is required. This will ensure availability of quick charging for electric vehicles commonly in use in Norway during the first few years. Even so, infrastructure up to the charging station must have sufficient capacity for extensions with other quick charging systems based on European or international standards when these become available."
...
To qualify for a grant the charger must be based on DC or 3-phase AC systems with a power of at least 44 kW.
...
A CHAdeMO charging station normally requires access to a TN grid capable of delivering at least 80 A and 400 VAC to each charge point.
...
Planning for extra capacity to allow later installation of further charge points based on the coming European standards is required."�
Dec 8, 2011
Norbert But 80% is not very much in this case. Maybe 50 highway miles, if even that. These cars will be much less suitable for making long trips than the Leaf, which already is on the border.
And that is exactly my concern: that all this hoopla about 3-phase comes *"instead"* (your word) of support for DC fast charging. With charging like that, the EV "revolution" won't make it. Forget it. Public opinion won't carry a technology which isn't capable of highway travel, and it will make it that much more difficult for Tesla to change perceptions.�
Dec 8, 2011
eledille At 150 Wh/km this would be 117 km or 69 miles.
EDIT: 150 Wh/km isn't a lot, that would be a steady 90 km/h. You're probably right if the speed limit is 110 or 130 km/h.
These cars are probably intended to be car number two. In that case they don't require as long range, and this market is also huge.
I own an even less impressive EV. It has a range of only 80 km, can only charge at 16 A, and I only ever charge it at night. Yet I drive it back and forth to work every day. It works just fine, because we need two cars anyway. Some people never drive long distances at all. With 22 kW charging power, at least you can drive longer distances if you really want to, and public charging while shopping etc will keep the battery topped up even if you don't have a garage.
Model S is in a different market segment and needs longer range, and given that long range, you would usually not have to charge while on the road. But you do need to charge overnight, and then even 16 A, 400 V would suffice. 22 kW would do it in less than four hours.
63 A is coming, but is not ready yet. 63 A, 400 V has 87% of the power of 50 kW CHAdeMO. The Germans want communication between the power grid and the charge point before they start a massive rollout of 63 A charge points. They consider 22 kW to be the upper limit for dumb charge points.
The difference between 22 kW of three phase and CHAdeMO is that any random European village of 500 people can easily afford ten public 22 kW AC charge points, while you will never find a single CHAdeMO charger there.�
Dec 8, 2011
Norbert Yes, that, and that the 'reserve' capacity noticeably takes away at smaller capacities, so 80% isn't much anymore. The Leaf is considered the low end for highway travel with 24 kWh and 50 kW charging, and the distance between rest stops also needs to leave some margin so that cars don't arrive on the last Wh.
Maybe in theory, but it also depends on winning mind share first. And many #2 cars could also (theoretically) do well with home-charging only. So we are probably talking about extending the range by 80% since above that it gets tedious unless all the stars align. Cases would be destination charging, but then you need chargers on all street corners, which will then become obsolete in 10 years. So it's not like it would not be useful at all, but it doesn't seem like it's really what we need to go forward, what we need to win mind share "against" ICEs and possibly hydrogen or other less than optimal alternatives.
Well, the thing is that many EV owners are in such a situation, otherwise they would not have bought an EV in the first place. This distorts the perception of what most people expect from a new technology in order to approve of it.
A fast charger consumes about as much energy as a fast-food restaurant, as far as I could tell last time I checked. But does anyone say that this will impose a limit on fast-fodd restaurants? In other words, I think people are creating a myth there because they think conservatively about by new technology, and are too cautious about it having any impact on the grid at all. If germany wants to put in the brakes there, it will be to its own disadvantage. Nothing against a smart grid, though, but don't create a chicken-and-egg problem where none is necessary. It can come in time.�
Dec 9, 2011
eledille That's true, but not the whole truth. Europe is densely populated, lots of people live in apartments and can't charge at home. Secondly, the limit for single phase overnight charging in Europe is approximately 30 kWh.
Exactly, and that's precisely what Europe is aiming for
Well, almost every street corner. We can always walk a block or two. But the idea behind the German plan is that wherever you need to go, there will be a three phase charge point in the immediate vicinity. So far they have invested 860 million euros, and that's just the research program.
Wikipedia article here
I don't think so. That's why it's important to get the choice of connectors right.
I completely and fundamentally disagree. EV's take a long time to recharge, that's true. On the other hand, the "fuel" is omnipresent and the EV can charge unattended. Charging is one of its strengths. We can never win a refuelling contest against the ICE anyway, even at 100 kW Model S will need almost an hour. The trick is to avoid the waiting.
I think there are primarily three things that will win mind share: Convenience and comfort, time saved, and money saved. Environmental friendliness will probably attract some buyers too.
Never having to go somewhere special to refuel is a major convenience. The concept of DC charging fails spectacularly in this respect, it copies and magnifies a negative aspect of the ICE. I prefer not to think about how I would react if the charger was out of order when I needed it and the next one was out of range.
During extended highway driving high charging rates or larger batteries are necessary, but to compete with 63 A three phase, something like the Tesla quick charger is needed. Such a thing has not yet been standardized, and until that happens governments are unlikely to touch them except in test programs.
In a market peppered with inexpensive 11, 22 and 44 kW charge points I just can't see a business case for CHAdeMO.
So how many two car families (barring owners of two-seater sports cars) do you know who are not in exactly that situation? I can't quite see the use case that requires two long distance capable cars in a single household. A travelling salesman and -woman living together, perhaps.
What really distorts perception is never having tried it in practice, and looking for weak points compared to a well-known technology without recognizing the unfamiliar advantages. If DC charging is needed just for reassurance, then fine, install a few of them along the highways. Just don't waste time and money by trying to build a real recharge network based on them until 100 kW units have been standardized properly.
Fast-food restaurants have very predictable power requirements. Charge points have unpredictable power requirements. The fast-food restaurant will need power day and night for heating, and it will consume power in exactly the same pattern every day. The charge point will consume 100% power whenever there is an EV charging, 0% otherwise.
Actually, in a few years, that fast-food restaurant might want to have ten charge points in the parking area. When this happens, the formerly predictable load can suddenly vary by a factor of twenty within minutes and at random.
This is not a problem for an individual charge point, but six of them can easily overload a transformer. Larger numbers might even affect substations. Charge points will initially be hooked up to existing transformers that also supply other customers. Imagine six charge points all connected to the same transformer. They can load the transformer with almost three hundred kW, and that might very realistically pop its fuse if it's heavily loaded already. If you are the sixth customer to arrive, and four of the other cars have finished charging, you can get 63 A. Without communication there would only have been two charge points there instead of six, and you wouldn't have been able to charge at all.
I can't be bothered to check, but I seem to remember that the 63 A rollout starts in 2014 or 2015. It's just a few years into the future, and Rome wasn't built in a day either.
But I mostly agree - I think they should start rolling out 63 A charge points and just be conservative in how many to connect to each transformer. However, for each dumb 63 A connection, you lose two 32 A or four 16 A connections.�
Dec 9, 2011
Norbert Not the whole truth? In cases where home-charging isn't available or not sufficient, Level2 (slow) charging at parking spots will perhaps take the place of home charging. Otherwise this makes fast charging even more important, and doesn't affect my argument at all.
I don't see that working very well, long range batteries and a well chosen number of 90 kW DC fast chargers (in addition to overnight charging at hotels etc) seem a much better short-term *and* long-term solution to me.
It doesn't (fail) when combined with long ranges which mean that overnight charging will resolve maybe 95% (not a scientific number) of all charging.
If you want to wait for that, then I hope Tesla won't wait for you (or whichever country might try to enforce that with rules).
The prospect of a peppered landscape doesn't sound very inviting to me. I prefer long ranges so that I don't have to charge at all (during the day). And for long trips, making stops as required by 90 kW charging, seems fine.�
Dec 9, 2011
Norbert Adding to the above, Nissan has found that most of its customers don't even nearly use the full range of the Leaf (in their daily routine). Discussions among Leaf owners have shown that they are much more interested in DC fast charging than in additional Level 2 stations. So while my argument above is targeted at Tesla's situation (and its upcoming mass-market Bluestar in 2015/2016), similar arguments apply to EVs such as the Leaf.�
Dec 9, 2011
GSP "..........long range batteries and a well chosen number of 90 kW DC fast chargers (in addition to overnight charging at hotels etc) seem a much better short-term *and* long-term solution to me."
3.5 kW from an 11 kW outlet doesn't seem like the best way to do that overnight charging. EV owners who can only charge at work, not at home, will be even more frustrated. Why not install a 3-phase charger for only 50% more component cost and use the full 11kW the outlet can provide?
I only have a 3.3 kW charger. When I get home after work, I can add 10 mi/hr range. This is very helpful for after work excursions. However my EVSE can supply 6.6 kW. If my car could use the full 6.6, then I could add 20 mi/hr! So, I am kind of frustrated like the Europeans are.
They will find a way to use their 11kW and 22kW outlets, we can all be sure of that.
GSP�
Dec 9, 2011
Norbert This just means that a fast-food restaurant would be even more demanding on the grid than a fast-cahrger in its place.
I'm not talking about actually building a fast-food restaurant, therefore there won't be any charge points in its parking area.�
Dec 9, 2011
Norbert I'm not arguing against or in favor of 3-phase. I'm arguing that 3-phase would not replace fast-charging, which is something several persons have now stated each more than once (and in fact several car manufacturers, if not governments, appear to have such plans).�
Dec 10, 2011
eledille Wrong. Utilities love to sell electricity. They also love customers who want a steady stream of it, instead of a huge amount all at once from time to time. That's because all of the utility's production equipment has to be dimensioned to handle the maximum load, and if maximum load is much higher than the base load then utilization of their expensive gear will be poor.
Utilization is directly linked to return on investment, and communication between charge point and transformer is a simple and effective way to increase utilization without limiting maximum power per charge point.
I realize that. But we do have fast-food restaurants here too, and they are a perfect candidate for charge points.
The fast-food restaurant comparison is interesting, because it highlights the differences in behaviour between two applications that have approximately equal maximum power requirements.�
Dec 10, 2011
widodh I agree on that!
A quote from my letter to Tesla:
It is pretty simple. In the US you get 20kW charging with the two onboard chargers, but that power is drawn from one phase. In Europe we also want 20kW AC charging, but we want that power to be drawn from three phases.
I personally never said I do NOT want DC charging, it is the other way around, I see a big potential for fast (DC) charging, but it does NOT mutually exclude medium (~20kW) power AC charging.
I'd like to see a CHAdeMO adapter for the Model S as well, that way I can also take advantage of all the 50kW DC chargers which are being rolled out throughout the country.�
Dec 10, 2011
Kevin Sharpe I disagree... the Leaf owners I know have been raving about the difference between 10A (using a 13A "UK" socket) and 16A (using a 32A "mennekes" socket). The moment they have a car that supports 32A charging then a shift will take place because that charging rate will be available everywhere in the UK.
I use 32A charging a lot to extend my daily range when at meetings, eating, etc. I only typically use Tesla 60/70A 'fast' charging when on long trips where I choose to break a journey for an extended period. These 'fast' chargers can also have some direct cost associated with using them (�10 to �15) which is not seen with 32A.
We are seeing a desire to install restrictive (and expensive) charging networks in the UK. Here's a recent report from a Leaf driver regarding one large chain that's installing charging (note they are talking about "mennekes" today but have aspirations to install DC fast charging);
http://mynissanleafstory.blogspot.com/2011/12/little-chef-charging-network-not-quite.html
Also consider that Leaf drivers have voiced their opposition to paying to join networks or indeed to pay directly to charge. Obviously, that will not prevent some from paying anyway but I do believe that many will choose to use 32A to daily range extend and not travel long distance using the Leaf.
I drove my Tesla 264 easy motorway miles yesterday, in comfort, and charged at 32A during an event. A colleague drove 230 miles in a Leaf to the same event without heating (it was ~3 degree C, mid 30s F), they DC fast charged twice (access limited to business hours), charged at 10A during breakfast and at the event. Very few people will undertake a similar journey in a Leaf even with 24/7 DC fast charge.
For the Model S to be practicable for people who wish to undertake daily journeys beyond the range of a single charge then you need both 'fast' AC and DC charging. In mainland Europe the 'fast' AC charging must be 3 Phase.�
Dec 10, 2011
Kevin Sharpe That's a no-brainer in the UK as well... we will have 100+ CHAdeMO Fast Chargers in the UK in 2012 and this is a small country.�
Dec 10, 2011
dpeilow You are twisting words to support your American-centric opinion on this.
The Renault cars have decided to use three phase only (instead of off-board DC facility). For whatever reason they have decided to start with 3kW single phase chargers on the first two models followed by 44kW later next year on the ZOE. 44kW is adequate for highway use, but Renault think their market for the Kangoo van is urban deliveries and the Fluence is designed for Better Place (and time will tell if other markets take to it), so their argument is that these two vehicles do not need high power chargers.
However, no-one is saying that this is the answer for highway charging for long distance use. Most European manufacturers have signed up to the 100 kW DC IEC combo connector for that. But they are also supporting 22kW three phase AC for medium power charging opportunities, as that is so cheap to deploy in offices or car parks or hotels. That is all we are asking Tesla for.
We've had many messages of support from your fellow countrymen both on here and for Wido's letter. I'm not sure why whenever this topic comes up you argue so vehemently with the proponents, even though it doesn't affect you.
Then you should take a chill pill and actually read what is being said.�
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