Jun 15, 2016
metier Yes that is what I'm implying, and would like to know when I can become considerate to others�
Jun 15, 2016
Garlan Garner There is no one in existence at Tesla to monitor " you use, you pay"
There are no SC's out there that support "you use, you pay" ( development/money is necessary)
There is nothing in place that would eliminate the folks who already paid their $2000 for "free for life"
The idea of "I use, I pay" is easy. implementing and policing abusers is not easy.�
Jun 15, 2016
Garlan Garner Its absolutely amazing to me how the poll numbers are so even - yet the discussion isn't.�
Jun 15, 2016
Garlan Garner I would love to discuss this topic as there is undeniable proof on one side of this argument, however I don't know which forum we could discuss this in at length.�
Jun 15, 2016
jgs random chitchat ?�
Jun 15, 2016
Garlan Garner Done.�
Jun 15, 2016
Garlan Garner Thank God for this article.
Stop worrying about Tesla Supercharger congestion, it will be alright�
Jun 15, 2016
ChadFeldheimer 10 years ago, there was no one in existence at Tesla creating a supercharger network or the Model S or the gigafactory. Yet, somehow, here we are!
Honestly, implementing pay-as-you-go infrastructure is trivial. Owners can already go to the Tesla online store and purchase features for their cars: battery upgrades, autopilot, and yes... supercharger access. Pay-as-you-go is an OTA SW update away.�
Jun 15, 2016
Garlan Garner Selling a one time widget is amazingly simple. Selling an ongoing repeating product with an account is not easy.
Pay as you go is NOT trivial.
How about this.....I call in and need to talk to someone ( who does not yet exist ) about how someone hacked my account and I got charged for "pay as I go" and I wasn't even there that day. I was there the following day but only stayed at the SC for 1 hour instead of the 3 hours you charged me. I want my 2 hours back off my account and whatever was charged the previous day.
Of course the entire complaint is a lie....I just want free credit if I can get it.
The company I work for (AT&T) has tons of people that we have had to hire to handle these issues. I used to be one of them.
Selling a one time product such as 2K for life is easy. Its a one time purchase. Easily traceable.
In any case....thank God pay as you go will not happen.
Stop worrying about Tesla Supercharger congestion, it will be alright�
Jun 15, 2016
zenmaster Sounds like, regardless of frequency of use, she wants buyers to pay same up-front price to fund expansion. Also sounds like she's probably over complicating the implementation of a possible pay-per-use billing system.�
Jun 15, 2016
Garlan Garner See my comments above. I don't think she is over complicating it. I used to work in a "pay as you go" environment. Its a nightmare.�
Jun 15, 2016
Garlan Garner The primary reason you are seeing products such as:
Unlimited Talk
Unlimited Text
Unlimited Data
Unlimited Car Washes
Unlimited Oil Changes
Rent a car get Unlimited Miles
Unlimited.... everything is because its cheaper for the company to provide it.
You can get rid of all of the people - databases - computers - headaches concerning keeping up with per charge complaints and lies by customers.
AT&T got rid of 1/2 of its billing support department because of "unlimited plans".�
Jun 15, 2016
zenmaster Sort of apples and oranges. The car and plug are ID'ed and both are fully networked. The car sends its ID to the charger, so it's easy to establish a pairing transaction as well as to indicate location, time, duration, and power-use metrics. The only thing that can't be done at the moment, is the technical problem of remotely detecting the (unlikely) case of stall occupancy without plug in.�
Jun 15, 2016
ChadFeldheimer I'm not convinced AT&T is a paragon of efficiency =) No offense to you or your employer.
Somehow, other companies make it work. iTunes, Google Play, Amazon video-on-demand, Apple app store, Amazon web services, Uber, Lyft, etc, etc, etc. All of them somehow handle ongoing and on-demand small transactions (on the order of $1) efficiently.�
Jun 15, 2016
Garlan Garner See, you guys are imagining pay-as-you-go working in a perfect environment.
There are shyster customers out there that would make this a true headache for Tesla.
In a perfect lily white environment where all customers were honest and forthcoming ..... it would be cheap enough for a company like Tesla to support.�
Jun 15, 2016
Garlan Garner I will guarantee you that each of those companies will soon provide unlimited plans if they don't already have it. Its just a cheaper business model.
I also guarantee you that if they could get rid of their support overhead.....they would do it in a heartbeat.
As a company.... I would much rather pay for unlimited service to my customer than to pay for health care, benefits and salary to an employee.�
Jun 15, 2016
zenmaster How would you imagine potential customer fraud would cost Tesla enough money to be a road block to such a system?�
Jun 15, 2016
Garlan Garner By having to employ employees to resolve the potential customer fraud is how it would road block such a system.
Look, If Tesla has to pay a new employee $40K a year in salary and $30K in taxes and benefits...then in order for Tesla to break even...that employee would have to resolve $70K in fraud each year. That's impossible. It would be an expense for Tesla. I used to be an expense for AT&T. Now I work in another department where I'm an asset and not an expense.
Now....charge us $2K for a one time fee that adds itself to the price of the car.....no hiring is necessary. Its now a clear $2K profit...not an expense. That's an approvable business model.
See...this forum is trying to resolve a SC congestion issue by suggesting a solution that Tesla would have to pay for. Forgive my English...but they aint goin to do that. pay per use is not a good financial business model.
The people in this forum don't seem to care about things like business models ...because it resolves their issue.
If Tesla continues to deploy more SC's, then everyone wins. Tesla won't have to hire any additional people or pay for any additional employee health care packages or taxes, ect .... and congestion is reduced. That business model is financially acceptable and will eventually solve the congestion issue.
Just be patient. Its going to be ok.�
Jun 15, 2016
ohmman So just as devil's advocate here.. why wouldn't they just swallow the fraud charges until they got to the point where it was worth hiring an employee? Isn't that what the term "business case" means?�
Jun 15, 2016
Garlan Garner Because they are currently making straight profit on the $2K fee.
As a company you don't move from pure 100% profit to possible expense - simply for the convince of customers. That's business 101.�
Jun 15, 2016
ohmman Just wait until you get to business 102. That's when they talk about breakeven analysis and profit-volume-cost models.
�
Jun 15, 2016
Garlan Garner I would love to see a complete pay-per-use business model ( including personnel, insurance, taxes, etc.)- that equals the $2k per customer charge.
Elements of a Business Plan�
Jun 15, 2016
Garlan Garner I agree.
Those are the kind of concepts that need to be discussed in this forum.
Not simply....
"People are hogging the SCs....lets get them out of there by charging them".....types of responses.�
Jun 15, 2016
SSD420 I've just been browsing through this thread. I have not read all of the comments, but I'd like to chime in.
Next month, I'll be taking delivery of my first Tesla - MX 90D. Don't get me wrong, I'd love the idea of unlimited supercharging for the life of my MX. It sounds great. But, if Tesla would implement a fee for access to the Superchargers at the time of purchase and then another fee for its use, I think some people may think twice about going to their local supercharger.
I am still new to Tesla and still have what many call "range anxiety." Every time I've been to the SC the Supercharger parking spaces are full. If a small fee would deter even a small portion of the locals who in my opinion, are taking advantage, I think it would help. I have this fear that I will run out of juice, get to a supercharger and there be no spots available.
Looking into the future when the Model ? is a more common car, I fear that there will be even longer lineups for charging.
I'm in Canada and we don't have nearly as many superchargers here as in the USA. Perhaps as Tesla opens more here in the North, my views may change.�
Jun 15, 2016
ArtC If your getting a model X, you have free access to the supercharger network for the life of the car�
Jun 15, 2016
Pando That's interesting. Do you have some references?
I would have thought that it would be a simple matter to put a kWh meter on each charger, have the customer swipe the credit card, and run the charge. Similar as pumping gasoline, as apparently that pay-per-use system has worked pretty well for decades.
If there is money to be made from selling energy, what would prevent Tesla from becoming an energy utility company?�
Jun 15, 2016
SSD420 Yes, I understand that. Although in the future if they were to implement a small fee, I don't think I'd be that upset. Obviously, it depends on how much said "small fee" is.
When things cost money people think twice about using things. FREE things often get misused or abused.�
Jun 15, 2016
SSD420 Even if Tesla charged the current market value or slightly above for variances, I'm sure it would help. For them to make money on the charging itself, like real markups in retail or other businesses, it would be more infuriating.
Who pays for the electricity when a supercharger is on privately owned land? Tesla? The land owner?�
Jun 15, 2016
Pando Why? The cost for Tesla buying energy from the utility company can be offset by solar generation, energy storage and shifting to off-peak hours, volume, contracts, etc. - all the things Tesla/SolarCity is actually promoting today. I'm sure they would get a very favorable rate compared to a typical residential customer, so there is money to be made.
Tesla, using a separately metered circuit from the local utility company. Done all the time for various projects (notably cell phone towers, etc.) even on privately owned land. Contract will spell out the details.�
Jun 15, 2016
SSD420 Actually, I didn't think about that. You're right. They most definitely pay less than the typical residential customer.
Once the Model ? comes out, I think a lot of us will change our tunes on the supercharging. Then again, it really depends on how much more Tesla spends on the infrastructure. As I noted in an above post, I'm in Canada. So we really don't have that many Superchargers available to us. Currently, as it stands, it would be impossible to travel cross-country to the West Coast in my Tesla. The infrastructure just isn't there. As more and more people getting into Tesla's, especially here, longer lineups will have a huge impact at the superchargers.�
Jun 15, 2016
stopcrazypp Blink's site kind of gives an idea of what states this will become an issue with:
Blink - Membership FAQs
The reason charge networks don't want to become utilities is because there is a lot of red tape and your whole business becomes regulated by the utilities commission. That means your hands are completely tied in setting rates even though technically you aren't really a utility in the first place. Given it is easy to bill by session or minutes instead, why would anyone want to go through those hoops just to bill by kWh?�
Jun 15, 2016
SSD420 Contrary to my above comments, I'd love to keep my for life of my MX free supercharging, but I still fear the demand for said superchargers will surpass the supply. Something needs to be done to combat this.�
Jun 15, 2016
Pando Thanks stopcrazypp for the reference, it's much appreciated.
I'm sure that when it's appropriate, laws and regulations can and will be rewritten to accommodate the need for charging infrastructure in a much more wider scale.�
Jun 15, 2016
stopcrazypp It's actually simpler than waiting for laws/regulations to change (which will take a while, the charge networks have been pushing for changes for years): simply bill by minute (or even session, although session is less ideal).�
Jun 15, 2016
Fred Thompson Would charging by mile added to the battery possibly avoid the problem of charge per kWh since the cost is averaged throughout the nation? Might be worth looking into.�
Jun 15, 2016
Pando I think it's a privilege that you will and should be able to keep. You basically financed the SC upfront and you're entitled to the benefits. The question is how Tesla deals with the masses of M3 owners crowding the stations. And if pay-per-use is eventually implemented, for that reason I suggested that they may have to create exclusive use SC slots for the "unlimited" SC users that pay-per-use customers can't use.�
Jun 15, 2016
SSD420 That's a fascinating idea that I hope Tesla explores.�
Jun 15, 2016
Fred Thompson I am not sure Tesla needs to recoup the cost of the super charging stations that are already being paid for by other means. What Tesla needs to target is overuse of the superstations that will lead to unrealistic waiting times. If Tesla's per use cost is set by their average national cost for electricity, owners of the Model 3 that do not pay for the lifetime fee would likely charge at home instead of using the super charging stations. The per use cost that only pays for Tesla's electricity cost will silence naysayers that will use a higher fee to attack Tesla.�
Jun 15, 2016
Red Sage I've probably listed them in this thread of messages multiple times already. In short...? Pay-per-use is not worth the money you would generate for the trouble that would accompany it. Customer service issues would escalate tremendously. Mostly from people not realizing their credit card had expired. Also from people who don't know how to [FRELLING] read the details of the plan they selected. Often from people who decide to protest what they feel are erroneous charges or incorrect fees assessed when they are billed. People like to compare it to pumping gasoline. But they forget that gas stations these days make their real money from sales of alcohol, tobacco, soda, chips, and convenience items that have a 10,000% markup. Heck, so far Superchargers are unlikely to even have an air machine, squeegees and paper towels, or a trash can -- let alone a convenience store with three-year-old beef jerky and irradiated breakfast sausage on a stick or garbage-can-with-a-straw fountain soft drinks or Mississippi Mud Coffee dispensers. The 'convenience' afforded those who want to 'pay for what they use' would place that minority ahead of everyone else who 'Gets It'. And you'll still have the option to Pay-As-You-Go using the third party charging networks instead. Lobby those companies to give you what you want with pay-per-use Superchargers and leave Tesla Motors out of it.�
Jun 15, 2016
jkk_ Well said. If I'd have any photoshop skills I'd change the horse in the "beat the dead horse" memepictures to be the future model 3 owner.�
Jun 15, 2016
Red Sage That seems to be a bit much, really. I'm likely to buy a car that is pretty much maxed out anyway... So it would surely include Supercharger access and anything else I felt was worthwhile. Thus, no need for a refund or discount. Unless I can't delete leather seats in favor of cloth/textile. I like that Supercharger access is tied to the car, not the owner. So, if I wanted to give away or sell my car, the next driver automatically has that ability activated. And, since I am going to be around to see age 150 or more, it wouldn't be the best deal for Tesla Motors to make anyway.�
Jun 15, 2016
randall_s Link an account to your car (like PayPal). Supercharger IDs your car and charges your account. Manage from your phone. Simple, easy, and no cards to swipe/read.�
Jun 15, 2016
SSD420 I agree with you @jkk_ .�
Jun 15, 2016
Red Sage Well, that's why someone invented the inside crescent kick.
It is amazing how so many in this thread think that having a fee for something will miraculously make lines go away. Or that not having a pay-per-use fee will magically make lines appear.�
Jun 15, 2016
Red Sage Ladies and gentlemen...? One more to file under 'DUH.'�
Jun 16, 2016
alseTrick Paying per use is fairly easy to implement. Pay through the center console and/or app. Is it as "easy" as paying $2,000 upfront? No. But is it "difficult" or "complicated"? Heck no.
Whether or not local users "abuse" superchargers is an entirely separate issue.�
Jun 16, 2016
mhan00 I doubt they will, simply because it would add confusion.�
Jun 16, 2016
ChadFeldheimer Sure, let me know when Apple and Google move to all-you-can eat apps, Amazon releases all-you-can-eat web services, uber sells unlimited ride passes, etc. I'll be waiting�
Jun 16, 2016
markn455 I like it being included in the pricing when you purchase the larger battery with the car and then being able to purchase supercharger access for the smaller 60-70 batteries.�
Jun 16, 2016
markn455 How much of a problem is the "abuse"? I don't really see it here in the SE. I know it's a problem with the low end EV's like the Leaf. I have not see it as much of a problem with the Tesla charging locations.�
Jun 16, 2016
sandpiper Enough of an issue that Elon had to send out letters to people who were using it as a local charger, rather than pay for charging at home. And if you get abuse by owners of 100K vehicles, it will only get worse with 35K vehicles. If anybody doubts that all-you-can-eat leads to abuse, then they need to spend a bit of time watching human behaviour at an all-you-can-eat buffet.�
Jun 16, 2016
zenmaster You here four hour! You go now!�
Jun 16, 2016
Dan Detweiler I think this is more prevalent in California and possibly the Northeast. Not so much elsewhere.
Dan�
Jun 16, 2016
cpa Occasionally I frequent a location to attend some CPE classes. This location has 4-30A public chargers that are free, paid for by the property manager. I sometimes avail myself of 4 hours of electricity as I am out-of-town and the nearest SC is 25 miles away.
I have walked past this particular EVSE area about 8 times in the past three years. Every time there is a Chevy Volt parked there for the entire day. Clearly this driver is employed at one of the stores in this shopping area, and uses the location to charge and park the entire day.
I think this might be a situation that some of us anticipate could materialize with the Model 3. People who work proximate to the SC will grab a charge and use the space as a parking spot until they feel like returning to their car on break or worse, at the end of their shift.
And I do not know the solution to this dilemma. Whether pay-per-use, or one-time up front fee, parking at SC will make matters worse.�
Jun 16, 2016
SSD420 I really hope that doesn't happen.�
Jun 16, 2016
jgs Actually, just to park the entire day, not charging, with a wire plugged in for show, since a Volt only takes a couple hours to L2 charge at 30A. Which was probably your point. :-(
Sometimes I unplug people I see doing that, after I verify they aren't actually charging (there's usually a telltale that lights up on the EVSE to indicate if current is being drawn).�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner But, that's not a letter because of congestion.
We have topics going on here.
Congestion (abuse)
Too much Local Charging (letter from Tesla)�
Jun 16, 2016
SSD420 In Toronto, parking can be pretty hefty, so I could imagine that happening here.�
Jun 16, 2016
Bimbels Then THAT guy is a jerk and should be reminded of charger etiquette. But that doesn't mean all are or will be jerks.�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner Obviously you don't live in Chicago. That's grounds for getting shot here.�
Jun 16, 2016
SSD420 Not all. But there always will be some jerks who spoil the fun.�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner AGAIN AND AGAIN....just be patient and "no"...I'm not going to let anyone know anything. You get the gist of my argument......so.....�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner A company shouldn't change ANY policy it has due to a "few" jerks.�
Jun 16, 2016
SSD420 It sucks when a select few ruin the experience for those who "follow the rules."�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner Indeed. But don't change policy.
There needs to be a solution that does not affect anyone but the few.�
Jun 16, 2016
ohmman Well... Amazon does have Prime, which is flat fee unlimited shipping and video streaming. However, those are value-add to direct more business revenue in their direction. So not really a counterpoint, just a nit.�
Jun 16, 2016
jgs What, specifically unplugging someone's car? Or just touching someone's car, or moving the lawn chair they're using to reserve "their" street parking, or whatever?
By the way, how far does the shoot-on-sight zone extend outside Chicago proper? All the way to Hoffman Estates?
Forgot to mention, I've parked at some EVSEs that are designated "EV only *while charging*" with a hefty fine for overstaying. I don't know to what extent the "while charging" clause is actually enforced. I would guess in most locations, not, and probably most parking enforcement folk can't tell the difference between "this car is charging" and "this car has a wire coming out of it". However, at least the mechanism exists, if it were to be enforced.�
Jun 16, 2016
SSD420 I think I'd be pissed if someone touched my car or unplugged my car just because they felt my car was done�
Jun 16, 2016
ChadFeldheimer $70k a year is only $40/hour.
If I were Tesla, I would defend against Supercharger billing disputes the same way as defending against autopilot/summon incidents/complaints: with detailed logs. Log the time the car was parked at a supercharger, the time the driver opened the charging door, when the supercharger plug was inserted, removed, etc, etc. Borrow an idea from red light cameras and record timestamped images from the car's cameras when a session begins and ends - this will show that the car was clearly in a supercharger stall at those times.
Then use one of your $200/hour software developers to automate the dispute process - to eliminate 95% of the dispute work. Like Amazon, Google, Uber, Lyft, etc etc have done.
With sufficient data and algorithms, your $40/hour employee becomes very productive.�
Jun 16, 2016
jgs Who said anything about feelings? Either it's drawing current, or it's not. It can be easily and objectively determined.�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner I don't care the what the reason is that someone pulls a charger out of my car. First of all...understand that Tesla owns the current/voltage/charger.
I can't post my response to what I would do to someone who is bold enough to do that - in this forum. All I can say is that they wouldn't ever be able to phisically do that again.�
Jun 16, 2016
asus389 According to fueleconomy.gov fuel costs on my current car (a 2011 BMW 328i) are $1,950 per year. It gets 20/30 city, highway and takes premium gas. I probably do somewhat better than the estimate because its a manual transmission. But still, even if I had to pay 2k to enable supercharging on my Model 3, and all I did was supercharge, I'd be in the black after 1 year.�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner That's why you have to keep using it for years. Like Me.�
Jun 16, 2016
Red Sage Oh? So... How does this 'Estimator' determine where you are going next, what speed you will drive, whether or not you have a headwind, the terrain you will traverse, and how soon you expect to get there?�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner I like this estimator.
EV Trip Planner
Its pretty accurate with my travels.�
Jun 16, 2016
jgs Apparently you're imagining a Supercharger. Obviously my comments wouldn't even apply in that case, since the handle locks to the car, there's no question of someone unplugging it without the fob (or jimmying the handle, which is totally different of course). I was referring to public L2 chargers, and in that case, what I described is relatively common practice. It's a perfectly rational thing to do, and I daresay irrational to get upset about it. It's even expected, that's why L2 charging locations frequently have multiple "EV only" parking spots for each EVSE -- it's assumed that some of the EVs will be actively charging, and some will be done. The cable doesn't move itself from one to the other!
Srsly? If you're that exercised about the sanctity of your car, how can you even stand to take it out of the garage? People might get eye tracks on it! Maybe another coffee? Or a nice walk?�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner Come on.
I would do the same thing if someone pulls the gas nozzle out of my ICE car. Its the principle of it...not the love of my car.�
Jun 16, 2016
jgs ?
What exactly is the principle you're defending? Please be specific, ideally with reference to the specifics I provided about the realities of L2 charging and how the EV parking is often configured. Also keep in mind the situations are not analogous. Gas stations are not configured with multiple parking spots all able to access the gas nozzle, and as we all know it only takes a short time to gas an ICE car and the driver can usually be expected to be back in a few minutes.�
Jun 16, 2016
efusco It's not the same, unless it takes you several hours to pump gas in your car and you walk away and leave it for that entire time. EV charging etiquette is in its infancy in many ways, so typical expectations are different. I, too, wonder about this "don't touch my car" attitude that many have. Yes, I expect you to respect and not damage my car, but a public charger on a vehicle that is not charging, is a public charger and grants no special rights to the car owner. There's no harm or damage to unplug and transfer to another vehicle. If there is, then that's a whole other issue, but that could happen when someone parks next to you (in fact I'd say it's far more likely when someone parks next to you).
We need to all get along and share these resources and not be so selfish. As is so often, if you can't get over allowing someone else to perform the complex and dangerous task of unplugging your car, then you need to stay with your car the entire time it is charging and personally unplug it when finished. If you're too busy for that, then you have no grounds to complain.�
Jun 16, 2016
ohmman I don't know why this is a shocking concept. People unplug cars at public chargers all the time when they're done charging. Just visit any public charger at an airport long-term lot. They have two spots that share one charger for a reason. Likewise in any public parking garage in San Francisco. If the charge is done, the public charger tells you. Now it's your turn.
This isn't something new. It happens all the time, and it's accepted behavior.�
Jun 16, 2016
JeffK See now if this was at my home it'd be nice to have a robotic charging snake....
However this robotic charging snake would detect that it wasn't done charging and will rear up, point at the person, rattle like a rattlesnake, and create a small but notice electric arc in the air as if it's angry. It would then proceed to plug itself back into the port it came from.�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner If I pay for something....then don't touch it without permission. If I own something then don't touch it without permission. Including my Kids, Cars, House, ....etc.�
Jun 16, 2016
ohmman You're not paying for the charging cable. You're paying for the electrons. Nobody's taking those away.�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner I'm really not concerned how often something happens or how many people participate in an exercise. I have never been a person that is driven towards commonality. I've always been willing to stand alone. Don't touch anything that I own...ask for permission.
Now with that said...I've never been able to figure out how I would charge my car when another car is connected to the SC. The cord isn't long enough to get to my car unless I point my car in the opposite direction in some strange fashion because our charge ports are on the same side of the car. ALSO, I've never been charging where anyone else was there.�
Jun 16, 2016
SSD420 I understand what @Garlan Garner is saying though. I don't really want anyone touching my car.
But back to the point earlier, I wouldn't leave my car parked well passed it being charged�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner I'm saying....don't touch my car. house. kids....or anything.
If and ICE car is sitting at a gas station and there are no more pumps..... would never pull the pump out of their car to get gas even if the pump has shut off .
I'm not saying that I'm right or wrong...I'm just stating what I would do if someone touched or altered my stuff.�
Jun 16, 2016
SSD420 I fully agree with you. You're not alone on this one.�
Jun 16, 2016
ohmman I agree with you when it comes to Superchargers, because you cannot tell without touching the charge handle whether someone's charging or not. Plus, they lock to the car. So no issue. Nobody should be touching Supercharger cables on cars.
The public charger issue is completely different. First, they're slower, so people are generally charging for much longer. That means they plug in and they leave. In many cases, their locations support this behavior. My example above was the long term parking garage for an airport. They have two spots side by side with one charger between. If you're parking for a one week trip, you might want to top up, but the expectation is that someone will unplug and use the charger once you're done. The controller shows whether there's an active charge or not. Nobody has to touch your car to unplug it. The Tesla J1772 adapter stays in place on your car, and they unplug the cable and move it to their car.
I suppose you're saying that you'd never leave your car, and would move it as soon as it's done charging. I'm fine with that. But having a violent reaction to someone doing something that's socially correct and causes you no harm.. well, that's a bit too "Chicago" for me.�
Jun 16, 2016
jgs Lots of luck!
Are you clear on the fact that nobody is talking about Superchargers in this subthread? We're talking about public L2 charging stations. They are different. The things where you have to use the J1772 adapter. Those.�
Jun 16, 2016
MiamiNole You could equally say that Tesla is using the Supercharger network and free supercharging to direct more business revenue in their direction as well. *insert links to posts talking about SC as marketing expense, etc.*�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner LOL....yep, that's where I live.�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner Gotcha. I understand.�
Jun 16, 2016
sandpiper As I understand it, the letter was triggered by congestion at some sites in Calif, after which Tesla discovered a good number of locals using the SCs. I would STRONGLY prefer a pay as you go system of some sort. Any "all-you-can-charge" for a fixed fee will lead to trouble. Charging on the road has to be priced comparably to charging at home or there will be congestion.�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner sI suppose that I want Easy.
Easy is One time pay....and never worry about it again.
I don't mind paying for convenience.
That's one of the primary reasons I'm a Tesla owner......Its easier and cheaper than gas. Every time I leave my garage...I have a "full tank". I can't do that with ICE.
I don't mind paying for convenience.
However I do mind being forced to buy convince when I don't want it.
But then again its only a $2k charge on a $100K car....so .... its not that big a deal.
Now that Tesla has made the $2k SC fee an option.... its all good.
Now if you want to talk about congestion...then come up with an idea that only changes those who congest the SC's. Don't change my program. I like what I have.�
Jun 16, 2016
Bimbels Agreed, Garlan. In fact are there ANY owners here who want pay per use? If so, they are in the extreme minority. That should tell all the non-owners with zero supercharging experience something, shouldn't it?�
Jun 16, 2016
stopcrazypp There's one right above Garlan's comment. And I am sure plenty more examples are here. And the comparison should be clear: we are comparing prepaid vs pay per use here, not completely free (as in no cost to add as option, which Elon already said won't happen for Model 3) vs pay per use.�
Jun 16, 2016
ChadFeldheimer I'm a current owner of a leased S. My lease is up in 2018 and I expect to jump into a 3 then.
I want pay per use.
What percentage of current owners want/don't want pay per use? I missed that survey.�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner The survey does not say " who does not want..." It says - Which charging option do you prefer?
Currently the vote is
142 - Supercharging
172 - Pay per use.
Amazingly close.�
Jun 16, 2016
Bimbels i should clarify: owners who want supercharging for the Model 3 to be in the form of a paid option as opposed to pay per use. From my perusing of these threads since this discussion started, it seems the ones screaming the loudest about abuse have never even used a supercharger.
yes, There are a few who think the lowly Model 3 people should be relegated to a different class, despite that whole "master plan" thingie. But I do think they are in the minority.�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner Good point.�
Jun 16, 2016
Bimbels Curious, Chad - do you want pay per use for all tesla owners going forward, or just the model 3?
As an owner, you paid for your supercharging in the price of your car. If that price was decoupled for the 3, but it was a separate paid option, why would that not be acceptable?�
Jun 16, 2016
mhan00 It only takes a few to ruin the experience for all.�
Jun 16, 2016
ImEric "Pay per (insert whatever here); Assume cost is similar to 50mpg car ~$6/150 miles"
Shouldn't we assume that the cost would be something closer to a 100 mpg ICE? This will be one of the most efficient cars ever produced and it's heavier, bigger, less aerodynamic stablemate is already at 90+mpge, depending on which one you get.�
Jun 16, 2016
ChadFeldheimer I'm looking for a survey/study limited to current owners. There is a claim that the vast majority of current owners don't want pay per use - which is not readily apparent to me.�
Jun 16, 2016
ImEric There's an option that combines pay up front with pay-per-use. The car has to communicate with the Supercharger every time you charge, either way. So if you pay a large sum up front, let's say $2000.00, and it applies kWh credits and/or time credits to your vehicle that are equivalent to what you would need to drive about 50k Miles on the supercharger network (let's say about 12,000 kWh of electricity), then you could drive up to the supercharger, plug in, use your credits, and slowly watch them dwindle away over the years. You'd have to arrive with a near 0 state of charge and fill up about 250 times before you'd use all of kWhs. Judging from anecdotes on these forums and Tesla's comments over the years, most people would probably never run out of supercharger credits. However, you get a different feeling when you are watching your SC stash go away everyday than you'd get if you knew that you have unlimited use of the supercharges for the rest of your car's life. There would still be some people who would realize that they're never going to run out and still go out of their way to use the supercharger, but I imagine that would decrease significantly. Even more so if you made each kWh more expensive, perhaps an average of about $0.20/kWh�
Jun 16, 2016
ChadFeldheimer All owners moving forward is my preference.
The current prepaid situation is, actually, acceptable to me - obvious as I bought into the situation under my own free will. But my preference remains.
If there is a marginal cost to use, available resources will be allocated more efficiently. And that means a supercharger stall is more likely to be available to me when I (or anyone else) needs it.
I'm planning a cross country road trip to the west coast this year, from Illinois. I'm 50-50 on taking the Tesla vs my ICE, which is really unfortunate as the Tesla is a joy to drive. I value my time to the extent that I won't pull into a gas station on the left side of the road (two left turns vs two right). From this perspective, the potential of needing to wait 10 minutes for a supercharger to open up is a significant obstacle. I'm not concerned about super chargers enroute to the west coast, but at my destination (Bay Area).
Also, I believe pay per use will accelerate the transition to EVs. By maintaining zero marginal cost to use, Tesla is inhibiting the growth of third party DC fast charging stations - which I believe to be important to a robust EV marketplace. Prepaid supercharger access is essentially vendor lock in. There is currently little incentive for a third party to create an L3 network as every long range EV owner already has a zero marginal cost alternative.�
Jun 16, 2016
Trips It will be very, difficult for Tesla to charge by the kWh in any form. If they want to do that they will have to become 51 separate power companies. Each state has different regulations, taxes and entry costs. Yes, they can still have an unlimited package but EM does not that.
Charging for parking by the minute seems to be the way to go. It encourages people not to park there all day. It encourages people to stop at 90% when the speed slows down. Most importantly they are not charging for electricity as they are only charging for parking.�
Jun 16, 2016
Bimbels Tesla waited around for 3rd parties and gave up. So they did it on their own. That is when their sales took off - and where sales are most dominant - where the network is the best. I see your point about free access inhibiting third parties but I don't see any third parties even close to stepping up to the plate in terms of density and speed. I'm sure Chevy and Nissan would be happy (maybe they are also waiting) with a 3rd party - but it's still not happening. Perhaps more BEV competition and a common standard are what need to happen first. Maybe for now it's a double edged sword...
Personally, I see the way tesla does things as necessary to build out the SuC network, which has been a major catalyst to bring customers to Tesla (and for many, to EV.) I know that's why we did. The supercharger network is what made me realize my commute was possible with an EV. As things are today, it sets tesla apart from all other manufacturers.
Right now I think building the network is the more important thing. If tesla says they can continue to build out the network with a pay per use option then maybe I'd change my mind. .
Plus, I think the way it's done now is easy. For me and for Tesla.�
Jun 16, 2016
Fourdoor Hmmm, looks to me like higher education and $$$ may lead people to be arrogant assholes that would be considerate to other rich people and piss on all us low class peons... so to answer your question, yes there does seem to be a relation between considerate behavior and level of income/education.
Keith�
Jun 16, 2016
Fourdoor How many times has your cell phone account been hacked? Your e-mail account? Your bank account?
Get lifelock and get over it!
Do a month by month subscription vs unlimited for life for people who only need occasional access... no "you charged me for 3 hours instead of 1 hour" that way. Make the price 1/12 of unlimited for life and people who supercharge regularly will go unlimited (that would be me in my current situation) and other people would do month by month as needed... and Tesla would make more money off of them in the long run.
Most of these things you list are not "unlimited for life". You pay a monthly fee for as long as you want them, and you can start and stop service as often as you like. The old school cell phone companies do a contract, but there are plenty of "month by month" systems out there for Cell phones.
Why didn't sprint, AT&T and Verizon charge $5000 for unlimited for life cell phones in order to build out the cell phone network? Because it is not the most profitable business model.
Keith�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner Excellent point.
SC's would have different KWH prices per location. Just like ICE gas stations. That would be Ludicrous.�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner Why don't you understand the crux behind my message?
I'm not talking about paying for life vs. paying monthly. That's not the discussion. geesh.
I'm saying that paying per unit per time used vs. paying for unlimited are the 2 sides of the issue.
Either pay per time/usage for widgets.
Or get unlimited widgets for a price. I don't care how often you pay ( once or monthly ).
You don't pay car insurance by mile
You don't pay homeowners taxes based on how many hours spent in the house.
etc....its all unlimited usage - even if you have to pay for unlimited per month.
Get it?�
Jun 16, 2016
jgs Nit: State Farm offers a low-mileage discount. I assume this
Is a common practice in the industry. So there's at least some sensitivity to it, albeit still not per-mile as such.�
Jun 16, 2016
stopcrazypp Actually I'm on AT&T for both my home phone and cellphones. Both of them are limited in some way (home phone limited in minutes, cell phone limited in data). AT&T killed off the unlimited data plan because a few people abused it (which sounds suspiciously like what might happen here).
They made minutes and texts unlimited for cell phones for different reasons. Texts are low bandwidth in the first place. Minutes they made unlimited because demand dropped with the switch to data and text based communication (AKA social media and texting). However, we aren't seeing the same demand drop in superchargers, in fact Tesla is preparing for a explosion of demand (much like demand for data).�
Jun 16, 2016
zenmaster Why do people keep bringing this up? It's a red herring. They'd only need to charge for the stall occupancy or any service being provided there.�
Jun 16, 2016
jgs Yes.
I guess it really does mirror the SC debate, since my immediate reaction to this comment was "by definition you can't abuse something that's unlimited. When you cross the line into abuse, that line is called... a limit. Contradiction, Q.E.D."
(Anyway, AT&T was actually reasonably classy about how they got rid of unlimited. They just stopped offering it to new accounts and provided incentives to existing ones to move off, AFAIK they didn't renege.)�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner That's just not correct. I have unlimited text talk and data on all of my cell phones with AT&T. So I know that is incorrect.
We hare already been informed that unlimited SC will continue to be offered...so that's now a non-issue.
Stop worrying about Tesla Supercharger congestion, it will be alright�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner I'm not sure what you guys are talking about. I just ordered unlimited text/talk/data through AT&T a month ago. - on all 4 of my phones as a single package.
Call them....they will sell unlimited everything to you.�
Jun 16, 2016
Garlan Garner My fellow employees were let go when they started offering unlimited talk/text/data 6 months ago. They let them go because there would be no need to discuss phone data and text usage with unlimited users. Customers weren't calling in for support issues concerning talk text and data anymore.�
Jun 16, 2016
ohmman GG is in favor of recurring monthly Supercharger fees. It's here. Everyone, bask in it.�
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