Thứ Hai, 21 tháng 11, 2016

How would you prefer to pay for Supercharging? part 6

  • Sep 2, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    Solar City has nothing to do with selling power.

    They are a solar company that supplies and installs solar panels.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    ModelNforNerd

    So have you ever tried to push paperwork through a state's utility board?

    If they're not deep now, they will be if they decide to start reselling electricity.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Az_Rael
    Actually their business model is leasing panels and becoming a PPA provider. So they are more of a power provider. I priced them out once and buying panels from them is very expensive and not really want they want you to do.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    No, I haven't tried that...however I've had to push paperwork through the NSA to get a solar farm built. It was a mess.

    The only reason I make my statement about SC's not being that deep of a thing is because its super easy to setup your own power distribution stations at your house and advertise it. All you have to do is install Nema plugs and let people know that you have one....and then they come over and charge up their cars and then they pay you or xyz for it.

    There are quite a few google.maps type apps that will direct you to "peoples houses" and such to take advantage of this if you choose.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    They are indeed NOT a power provider. Come on people. Leasing panels / Installing Panels.....who cares. They aren't selling power by the KWH.
    You guys know what I mean....you are just playing games of semantics. I've been in the Solar Business for a long long time. I know what I'm talking about concerning this topic.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    ModelNforNerd

    That I have no doubt about.

    It may or may not be on the "up and up" though, depending on where you live.

    in Massachusetts, selling power without being subject to state regulation is a huge no-no, and you should be prepared to lawyer up if you're caught doing it.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    dsvick
    How are the other charging companies doing it? Are they all registered as resellers?

    I know they are in a lot of states that probably have varying laws. If it really is as complex as everyone says, it might be something, and I really hate to say this, that the government should look into to make it easier for chargers to be built in all states since it will eventually become a neccesary piece of the infrastructure.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    That may be true. Here are a few companies that post EV charging stations ( Home, etc).

    PlugShare
    EVSE | Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging Stations - ChargePoint
    Open Charge Map - The global public registry of electric vehicle charging locations
    CarStations | Charging Stations App & Map for Electric Cars and Plugin Hybrids
    ChargePoint


    There are tons of them. Almost all Highway overpass gas stations have them. They are independently owned charge stations. Selling Electricity.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    ModelNforNerd

    here in MA, there are a bunch of Level 2 chargers at a regional restaurant chain, "the 99". Those chargers are part of the chargepoint network, but they're part of a partnership with National Grid, a local utility.

    Chargepoint themselves are (not) a registered reseller. ***EDIT: they are not an authorized reseller....they handle the POS transaction, but technically National Grid, or EverSource are the resellers (depending on location of the charging station)

    They do it to prevent price gouging, which is good for the consumer, but can be a PITA if you're attempting to be a reseller.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    I don't have any facts on re-selling, but to become a member of PlugShare - I didn't have to register to become anything. I just bought the unit. Installed it on my house. and that's it.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    BMW, NISSAN and other dealerships have them. I wonder if they have become re-sellers or if they are giving electricity away for free.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    ModelNforNerd

    In that scenario, and in states that require regulation, PlugShare is likely the reseller, and you become an "authorized agent" of PlugShare, for regulatory purposes.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    Maybe..... I know that in the past 6 months....I've not had anyone use it. I don't use it.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    ModelNforNerd

    Here's the list of "Authorized Sellers" in MA (no Tesla or Solar City listed):
    ByLicense

    And the "resources" page for people looking to become authorized:
    Helpful Resources for Competitive Suppliers, Brokers

    FULL DISCLOSURE:
    I used to work for National Grid, and the Service Level Agreements for availability, of not only power distribution, but safety hotlines, IT systems, reporting, etc etc etc were very onerous. Somewhere above 98%, and penalties charged for long restoral times.

    I'm not sure if it would be that way for EV charging, if so, it may make Tesla think about partnering with someone to be a reseller, which would be unfortunate, because the kWH rate would likely be a little higher to cover the cost of the partnership. :(
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    Yes.... and that's my point. Tesla isn't a re-seller because it would require them to charge by local rates.

    They currently don't have to deal with rates.

    I think what Tesla is doing is superb because if they either build $2500 in per car or offer a lifetime $2500 option at purchase.....very few people will EVER use up $2500 worth of electricity - Even in Hawaii, Connecticut or Mass.
    I would suggest that Tesla continue with what they are doing because if they start charging on a per use basis.....they would lose all of that ( I'm not using SC at all even though I paid for it ) profit.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    SimplyThis
    Upgrading to a 100kWh BP generates profits that are used for M3
    Prepaid 20cts/kWh for supercharging generates lots of money for a truck?
    Keep em rollin' Elon!
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    The people in Hawaii and Connecticut would love that because $.20kwh is cheaper than what they pay now. LOL
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    ChadFeldheimer
    Actually, selling power by the kWh is exactly what SolarCity does with PPA.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    No they are not. There is no one here that can provide a receipt from Solar City where they purchased KWH of electricity.

    I know how this works....an interconnection agreement is established with the local power company between the homeowner and the power company. I currently have one that I established myself ( without Solar City or anyone else) . Its a 20 year agreement of what I'm going to pay per kwh to my local company. Solar City may help establish that with the local power company and Solar City may pay the bill to the local provider on behalf of the customer.....but they are NOT selling power.

    Solar City doesn't even generate power. They lease panels out.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Az_Rael
    So when I sign an agreement with Solar City to buy power from them for $.12/kWh for 20 years, that's not selling me power? How do you define PPA agreements then?

    I have gotten several PPA quotes from several vendors and they always have it set up as a price per kWh that I am buying from them.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    read what I posted above.

    I established my own PPA or Interconnection agreement with my local provider 4 years ago.

    Solar City is an intermediary. When the Local Power provider agrees that a customer can pay $.12/kwh for the next 20 years....then Solar City charges you $.12/kwh - are they charging you for power? NO.

    All of you know exactly what I'm saying. SolarCity is the man in the middle - passing the local power providers charge on to their customers.
    EVERYONE with a contract with SolarCity is still ON GRID.


    Question: At night - when the panels are providing NOTHING - who is providing the power? SolarCity? NO.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Az_Rael
    Maybe there is some nuance I don't understand, but when you get quotes from these guys it sure looks like you are buying power from them

    image.png


    image.png
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Az_Rael
    Well, since I am from Texas originally, maybe I think about this differently. In Texas the people you bought your power from weren't the people who provided it to your home. They were two different entities (always). So TXU might deliver the grid power to my house, but I actually buy the power from Green Mountain Energy or whomever I wanted. So if I write the check to Solar City for the power even though SCE delivers it to my home, I guess I don't understand the difference. I'm still paying Solar City for the power.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    No No No.

    I know it looks like it. However - who is providing the power at night? Its not Solar City. Solar City is putting their name on a contract but THEY ARE NOT PROVIDING POWER. That's my point.
    Show me a Solar City generator. Show me a Solar City nuclear reactor. Show me what solar city power source is providing enough power to startup and Air Conditioner.

    They aren't providing power. If they are...then disconnect any of their customers from the Grid and see what happens.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    Why do Solar City customers need the grid? Solar City does not own anything on the Grid.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Pando
    Interesting.... With 2.9% annual increase, you'd be paying $0.287 per kWh at year 20.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    Yes.. and Solar City pays your provider with the money you gave them - ON YOUR BEHALF.

    Your provider doesn't care who pays your bill.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    Indeed that is interesting - People in Hawaii don't even pay that rate yet.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Pando
    I see what you're saying, but local power company isn't generating power either (most of the time, except when local demand requires if they have the local peaker plants), as they don't own a nuclear reactor nor a hydroelectric dam. They purchase it from the generator providers all over and distribute it. There are a lot of middlemen in this picture. Solarcity is just another one in a long chain that's interfacing with the customer.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Az_Rael

    OK, you are confusing power delivery services with companies that sell you power. They are two different things. SCE delivers the power to my home. But if I sign an agreement with Solar City, I am now buying the power from Solar City.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    03DSG
  • Sep 2, 2016
    diamond.g
  • Sep 2, 2016
    Bimbels
    I seriously doubt it, since they were sold the car with "free supercharging for life." But I would expect new owners could choose if they want to pay for it in the purchase price or pay in kWH blocks.

    I do think all owners, current and new, should be subject to idling fees if you stay beyond a full charge and others are waiting, however. JMHO
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    diamond.g
    To be honest they may just convert everyone, but give existing owners unlimited blocks of energy to stick to the promise.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Bimbels
    That is possible - and would be the way to force current owners to submit CC#s to enable charging for idling.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    MorrisonHiker
    If only they could figure out a way of charging non-Tesla owners when they 'idle' in a Supercharger spot...
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    Thanks and you are correct, however I just wanted to make it clear for those who are not yet a Solar City customer or a DIY'er such as I am.
    The Interconnection Agreement that I have is with my Supplier ( Commonwealth Eddison).
    My power provider happens to also be ( Commonwealth Eddison).
    I would be totally shocked if Solar City has become either.

    They appear to be a company that has inserted themselves between the customer and the supplier and is adding even more charges due to solar. I can't believe their contract would ever approach $.28/kwh Even thought that price won't occur for 20 years....that's a huge gamble for the customer.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    No..I'm not confusing the two. I just didn't want to get that granular because it would cause even more confusion.

    Solar City isn't either a supplier nor a provider.
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  • Sep 2, 2016
    FlatSix911
    It appears that existing owners will be grandfathered on the SC's. :cool:

    Following the leak, the �Supercharger credits� were associated with the Model 3 because Tesla currently only sells vehicles with �free� lifetime Supercharger access and Tesla already said that it will be an option on the Model 3, but as previously mentioned, the code was also embedded in the Model S and X �MyTesla� page. And now we know why.

    Sources familiar with the program have told Electrek that Tesla is about to introduce a new Supercharger Credit program to unbundle the cost of Supercharger access from the vehicle and consequently, lower the entry price of the Model S and X while ensuring that the value of the Supercharger network is better represented by the pricing model. The update could coincide with the release of OS 8 or 8.1.

    We weren�t able to confirm the amount of the price reduction, but considering Tesla still offers the option to enable Supercharging access for $2,500 on the original Model S 40/60, which were not offered with included access to the network, it wouldn�t be surprising if the discount will be of about the same amount. Update: another source with knowledge of the new program now says that the price reduction will actually amount to $2,000.

    Tesla has been working on reducing the price of the Model S and X this year with different options, like with the Model S 60 which is now Tesla�s least expensive option at $66,000. The Supercharger as an option will be Tesla�s next move to reduce the entry price of the vehicle.

    New owners will be able to buy �Supercharger Credits� by blocks of kWh. The price will depend on local electricity rates in your country. Buying blocks of kWh instead of paying per use, a la gas station, will allow Tesla to simplify its payment structure and reduce the number of credit card transactions.

    From the �MyTesla� page on the website, owners will be able to register a credit card number in order to make adding credit as easy as pressing a few buttons on the touchscreen of your Model S, X, and eventual 3.

    Tesla is also looking to monetize the time spent at the Supercharger by offering other services. We reported last month that Tesla is working to offer car wash service at Superchargers with a pilot project already underway in Fremont. This new program will allow them to do just that fairly easily. Tesla could sell a Chademo/SAE DC adapter that would work with other vehicles and could be tied to a credit card as well. This could be a huge market for Tesla who is already years in front of the competition in terms of charging.

    An announcement for the new program is expected relatively soon.
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  • Sep 3, 2016
    ChadFeldheimer
    Hi Garlan,

    SolarCity is not passing on charges from local power providers. The homeowner is billed separately for that.

    Here's a sample SolarCity residential PPA:

    https://www.solarcity.com/sites/default/files/sc-contract-resi-ppa-2.9.pdf

    SolarCity retains ownership of the PV system and the electricity generated. The homeowner pays nothing for the PV system - and instead agrees to pay for all electricity generated at the designated rates (for 20 years). SolarCity tracks how many kWh were generated each month by its PV system and bills the homeowner accordingly.

    When I was shopping for my PV system, I opted to purchase outright. Sounds like you made the same decision for yours. While SolarCity will sell (or lease) PV systems to consumers, many opt for a PPA instead. In such cases, it seems pretty clear that SolarCity is a supplier of electricity - even though they don't fit the mold of your typical electrical utility (e.g. ComEd).
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  • Sep 3, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    If that's the case...I don't understand how Solar City is a tremendous benefit. If the rate that you are paying to Solar City is close to what you are paying your local provider.
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  • Sep 3, 2016
    Big Dog
    It's not. Besides Musk himself, there is no other synergy.
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  • Sep 3, 2016
    JeffK
    You mean besides the entire power storage benefit which may become half of Tesla's future revenue?
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  • Sep 3, 2016
    ChadFeldheimer
    I think Garlan is asking why anyone would sign a PPA for $0.16/kwh versus not installing solar (versus why Tesla would want to buy SolarCity).

    The answer is that electricity during the day can cost more than $0.16/kwh - especially with time of use pricing.
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  • Sep 3, 2016
    ohmman
    Here in NorCal PG&E land, I pay $0.396/kWh during peak (2pm-9pm) with my rate plan. Of course, I'm rarely consuming at the time and usually feeding the grid. But that's the reality of the rate structure.
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  • Sep 3, 2016
    jkk_
    Offtopic, maybe this should be split into separate thread? But how much do you get from feeding the grid? The little (and I mean *little*) investigation I've done here isn't too promising.
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  • Sep 3, 2016
    Big Dog
    perhaps, but that has almost nothing to do with cars on the road. The transport machines (aka cars) do not have solar roofs, do not have any solar panels contained in them. And while power storage may grow to half of the company's revenue, that doesn't do much for the cars themselves. The electrons are fungible. One can charge a car and use the battery, or a run a toaster.

    Now, if Elon wants to put solar panels on his SuperCharging stations, all he had to do was put out a bid to Solar City and the others in that space for best of breed and price. Owning SolarCity gives him little advantage on price, and technology.

    That is why most investors are not clamoring for the deal.

    Warren Buffett has done extremely well putting companies under one umbrella, but that does not make them integrated.

    But sorry, really off the point of this thread.
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  • Sep 3, 2016
    stopcrazypp
    I think what Elon was pitching was selling everything as a package. Basically you get a Tesla car, battery pack, and solar panel in an entire package. I agree that the market was not enthusiastic about it and the advantage doesn't seem like much (esp. considering the risks) vs. keeping them as independent companies.
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  • Sep 3, 2016
    cpa
    Ohmman, you stinker! Just gotta rub it in that your hideaway in the North Bay region does not get so unbearably hot that you can laugh at all us fools who live in the hot interior valleys of California who suffer during the summer like the gallery in "To Kill A Mockingbird" or "Inherit the Wind." :cool:

    I figured out that the old-fashioned tiered rates for us made the most sense. Our PV system is 4,400 watts, which is more than enough to generate a surplus from late February-late June and again from now until early November. We even had a $2.50 credit at our most recent true up, but in past years has averaged about $150 per year.
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  • Sep 3, 2016
    dgpcolorado
    Around here it usually depends on the utility that serves one's house, or on state laws.

    I am served by a power cooperative, as opposed to a corporate utility, and it is very responsive to its member-customers. We solar net metering customers complained about settling excess solar generation each year in June at the wholesale rate of 3�/kWh and they changed it to March, and later got rid of settlement entirely. Now we can just carry over excess kWh generated as long as we want, so long as we don't exceed 10,000 kWh credit. My typical pattern is that I generate more energy in the spring and summer than I use and draw on that credit in the fall and winter when my electricity use increases and solar generation decreases. Thanks to my 2170 watt solar array I haven't paid for electricity, beyond a $16 monthly service charge, in more than three years.

    Other utilities are considerably less friendly to solar net metering customers than my member-owned coop.
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  • Sep 3, 2016
    SageBrush
    Funny,
    But I think he was saying that his PV covers his consumption.

    Which is actually a bit surprising, since I think of his area as muggy and overcast ;-)
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  • Sep 3, 2016
    Big Dog
    Yeah I get where SolarCity and the battery pack could be a good package, and perhaps one could call them "integrated". But if Elon expects to that a bunch of car buyers will be interested in solar roofs+batteries, he is sorely mistaken.
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  • Sep 3, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    Nicely worded Big Dog.
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  • Sep 3, 2016
    ohmman
    I get the same they'd charge. So I sell it at $0.396/kWh, and I consume at night at $0.10/kWh. It's honestly more complicated than that, since there are shoulder rates and I lose sunlight anywhere from 5-7pm during peak season, at which point I become a consumer.

    Regardless, at my yearly true-up, I usually am running about a $1000 credit, despite using around 1MWh for the year.

    And @cpa, yes - because of you Central Valley folks, we have the rate tiers that we do. For those of us that rarely need to run AC, it's pure luck and nothing else. The good news is that the next time you're in town, you can reach out and I'll buy you a cold beer to make up for it. We can even sit outside to drink it. :)
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  • Sep 5, 2016
    Red Sage
    But in each place it is a lot easier to spend that much on gasoline for an AUDI A4, BMW 3-Series, Cadillac ATS, or Mercedes-Benz C-Class. Yeah. Even driving back and forth on King Kamehameha Highway.
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