Thứ Hai, 26 tháng 12, 2016

Winter Performance part 2

  • Jan 19, 2011
    TEG
    Sounds like something may be different the way 'Eberhard' uses his car.

    Does it go from cold into a very warm garage? Big humidity change?
    Do you wait to plug it in after parking? So many variable that might affect things other than the kind of salt used on the roads.

    Is there any other kind of contaminant (dust, smoke, fur, ?) that could be getting into the fan?

    Or could there be some other issue with the car so it is supplying wrong voltage to the fans, so you keep having the replacement fans fail too?
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  • Jan 19, 2011
    Eberhard
    The tesla ranger, that they had more problems last winter, but hoped with the new design they have less. Every fail was after using it in heavy snow and ice condition. There were also some corrosion with the contact. I think, that the SPAL blowers are only IP33 not well useable in outdoor-conditions.
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  • Jan 19, 2011
    donauker
    I've had my Roadster for 21 months and over 22,500 miles. This is the second winter of almost daily use and it has been more white from salt than twilight blue for the last weeks. No problem with any fans, blowers or contacts to date.
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  • Jan 19, 2011
    cinergi
    We use Calcium Chloride and Magnesium Chloride in some areas. I have no idea if those are the areas I drive in, however. I very well may be driving on standard Sodium Chloride-treated roads.
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  • Jan 19, 2011
    Doug_G
    Maybe it is just snow getting into the fan, partially melting then freezing, and jamming the fan. That might cause the motor to overheat...?
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  • Jan 22, 2011
    cinergi
    It's 9F/-12C outside and I went for a drive. It was plugged in, but regen was off for about a mile (this has happened a few times now; looks like keeping it plugged in keeps it warm, but sometimes not quite warm enough). As soon as I get in the car in these conditions, the windows fog up pretty quick and it takes a while for the heat to warm up enough to defog. Other than the usual weak-heat comments, no issues driving.

    It's supposed to be -10F/-23C tomorrow night. I'll try to remember to report on how that goes. I'll be plugged in when I leave for work Monday morning so the pack will be relatively warm. However, the high will be 12F/-11C and I won't be plugged in, so I imagine the pack will get very cold. When I leave work for home Monday evening, I'll make note of any changes in behavior...

    I don't remember the last time we were more than just a couple degrees below zero (F) here! Yikes!
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  • Jan 22, 2011
    TEG
    Was the pack completely full? I assume you know that regen is also disabled when the pack is full?
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  • Jan 23, 2011
    cinergi
    Oh, interesting. Standard mode charge... STD mode driving. I've always driven this way and this has only recently kicked in with the cold weather. Does regen shut off if you're over 90% SOC and in STD mode drive? I can pull the logs to check, too ...
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  • Jan 23, 2011
    Tommy
    The A/C should be on to defog windshield and side windows; that is how moisture is removed from a vehicle. Adding heat at first will increase the fogging (think how taking a hot shower fogs a mirror) unless the A/C is also running to remove the excess moisture. The vehicles I have owned both A/C and heater operate simultaneously to clear fogging.
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  • Jan 23, 2011
    cinergi
    Understood -- though I've never seen these cars (I've had a few that did that) operate their A/C for defrost when it's well below freezing. It's pretty hard to dehumidify 10 degree (F) air. Here, it's a case of just that much difference in the temperature and humidity I'm introducing to the environment -- as soon as my breath hits the windshield, game over. I need to get the windshield warmer so it doesn't immediately condense even relatively dry warm air.

    I wonder if it's a good idea to even run the A/C when it's 10F outside...
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  • Jan 23, 2011
    AndrewBissell
    Of course you should also have recirculate switched on.
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  • Jan 23, 2011
    Tommy
    Being from Southern California, I will have to defer to your experience. Running the A/C when it's 10F outside is probably akin to me running my heater then it's 110F outside here.:cool:
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  • Jan 23, 2011
    TEG
    I don't know the exact details, and it may depend on firmware version, but this is what the 2.0 owners manual says (sounds like it should be available for STD mode):


    (BTW, looks like they had a typo and it should have said "reduced".)
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  • Jan 23, 2011
    Doug_G
    Performance at -36C (-14.8F)

    Very cold tonight, and nice dry roads, so I thought I'd give the Roadster a spin and see how it liked the cold. The results were interesting; my quantitative measurements confirmed an impression I had from previous trips in the cold.

    The car started out in Storage mode (so no battery preheat) with 90 km estimated range. It was in an unheated but insulated garage; temperature inside was around -15C (I didn't measure it but that is typical for the conditions). Outside was -26C.

    I drove a total of 40 km. Regen was disabled for the first 22 km. Estimated range dropped from 90 km to 38 km, a difference of 52 km versus 40 km actually traveled.

    Main heater, fan, and one seat heater was on. Idle power consumption was 12 amps (4.8 kW). Seat got very toasty and I had to reduce it to the lower setting. Air in the cabin never got warm; air out of the vents was lukewarm. Temperature was cool but comfortable with a jacket on.

    I noticed that, at first, the power consumption and rate of "range consumption" was considerably higher than normal. When traveling at 118 kph I was consuming 90 to 100 amps. Normally it would have been in the 60's.

    Once the regen re-enabled after 22 km, the power consumption returned to normal.

    So the big result here is that you can expect to lose a little range when the car has been cold-soaked. Once it warms up the consumption is normal, so the overall loss in range is minor. I estimate the reduction in range at 10 km, and since it only happens when the car is cold, you won't continue to lose range on a long trip. 10 km is all.

    I'd never had the battery that low before, and the range bar went yellow. Some EVs would have been nearly fully charged at that point!

    I was driving on summer tires, on bare roads. Initially traction was fair, but as the tires warmed up it improved a lot. Not going to set any track records in these conditions though.

    I'm going to top the battery back up to half-full then put it back in storage mode. That will mean I have some kWh available if (read when) I want to go for another winter jaunt.
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  • Jan 24, 2011
    donauker
    I wonder how critical this statement in the Yokohama specs is?

    Yokohama ADVAN Neova AD07

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  • Jan 24, 2011
    Doug_G
    Well, it is physically impossible to store them above -10C. I assume the reduced traction is what they are talking about. I wouldn't expect damage unless you exceeded the spec range by a large margin.
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  • Jan 24, 2011
    cinergi
    Car sat at work unplugged in ~7F/-14C weather. No difference in driving except that I was only able to peak at 175 KW (instead of 200+) according to the KW meter in the dash. It felt a tad slower on the top end, but otherwise fine. Looking at my logs, I see that my max ESS draw was 140 KW (max motor current was 663A) this evening. The logs show plenty of ESS KW draw in the 180-200 KW range (motor current 750+) in warmer weather.

    The in-dash LCD was pretty slow to refresh this morning (-1F/-18C). For some reason I didn't take note of the VDS responsiveness this morning. This evening (4F/-16C) the VDS was slightly slow to refresh, but not much. Better than I'm used to for LCD screens in cars in the cold!

    Regen didn't enable during my commute home (16mi/26km). You can check out today's graphs here.
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  • Jan 24, 2011
    cinergi
    For what it's worth, I checked my logs and my SOC's never near 90%, so I have to assume regen is disabled because it's slightly under temperature.
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  • Jan 24, 2011
    TEG
    [?IMG]
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  • Jan 30, 2011
    Adm
    I am "fighting" a little battle with a Dutch car magazine which is very negative on electric cars (www.carros.nl). This time it's about the range lost in cold weather. I've seen some examples here of increased energy consumption, but can anyone give an indication of how much (%) range is lost in cold weather.
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  • Jan 30, 2011
    Alan
    In my experience range goes UP in cold weather. The increase in power consumption for heating is small - esp if you use the heated seats. On the other hand if its cold / icy / wet you drive more slowly / smoothly which has a much bigger effect reducing consumption.

    Its the dry / warm days when you "drive it like you stole it" that reduces the range.
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  • Jan 30, 2011
    Doug_G
    I don't think percent is the right way to look at it. My recent test at -26C indicated that I lost about 10km at the beginning of the trip. Once the battery pack warmed up it no longer lost range. After that you only "lose"'what you need to run the cabin heater, which is negligible.

    If the Roadster was plugged just before your trip, so the battery pack was warm, you wouldn't even see that much loss.
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  • Jan 30, 2011
    donauker
    In my experience being in the second winter and with 23,000 miles on my Roadster I would put my winter range at 25 to 40% less then summer range. My usage is daily driving with most trips under 5 miles and 98% under 30 miles and on secondary roads with frequent stops.
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  • Jan 30, 2011
    cinergi
    There is probably also a difference between what your estimated range is if all you're doing is short commutes in the cold vs. Long trips. I know my estimated range goes from 150 mi to 100-110 mi (plugged in in morning so battery is warm, not plugged in at work so regen is off, 16 miles each way). When it's significantly below freezing outside. If I were to compare a 150 mile drive in both circumstances, however, the numbers may look different.
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  • Jan 30, 2011
    Doug_G
    That is entirely consistent with my test, as long as you're doing short trips (5km as you say) and allowing it to "cold soak" in-between. You're losing a lot of range until the regen re-enables.

    If you took a long trip you wouldn't see anywhere near that loss.
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  • Jan 30, 2011
    donauker
    No, this is without loss of regen. I have had only one loss of regen this winter and no case of battery heating for charging. Home garage rarely goes below 45F and unheated garage at work keeps the battery warm enough for regen on all but our one 0F day when I lost regen for about the first mile of driving.
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  • Jan 30, 2011
    Doug_G
    Interesting. I don't recall noticing any loss of range when the temperature was above freezing. Perhaps the "threshold" for regen disable is lower.
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  • Jan 30, 2011
    Jaff
    Same here Doug.

    When I'm parked outside at work (still no place to plug in, but I'm working on it), I don't seem to lose regen (when parked for hours) until under about -3C, usually with wind.

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  • Jan 31, 2011
    Doug_G
    Using my new Graphical Log Parser, I've reviewed the power loss during the time my car was in Storage mode. My first guesstimate was pretty accurate; my calculations show that it loses 315 Wh of charge per day, or 1.7 estimated kilometers (about a mile). At that rate, the car could last almost 6 months without power. Of course this is in cold conditions.
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  • Jan 31, 2011
    vfx
    Nissan released a chart on the Leaf that gave mileage losses in all sorts of driving conditions including cold.
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  • Jan 31, 2011
    Doug_G
    Link?
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  • Jan 31, 2011
    LST
    Last year, 10'000km av. consumption 170Wh/km. i measure wall to wheel. this winter, with temp often in the range -10C to 0C the consumption rises to 200Wh/km. i always have the heater and seat heating on. winter tires affect range / consumption most. so 20% is a fair guess.
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  • Jan 31, 2011
    Eberhard
    i did today at -6 Celsius 132km and 20,4kWh consumption = 155Wh/km with Wintertires but heater off using seat heating + heated floorpad against cold feet. speed average was little about 80km/h
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  • Jan 31, 2011
    vfx
    Couldn't find it.
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  • Jan 31, 2011
    TEG
  • Jan 31, 2011
    TEG
  • Feb 1, 2011
    bolosky
    This has not been my experience. I've noticed much higher energy/mile usage in the winter than the summer. Last year, I measured the draw from the cabin heat and did a little math, and it's all explainable by the heater. I posted my results here, and if I were les lazy I'd find them and provide a link to them. Anyway, the bottom line was that the heater on full blast drew somewhere in the 3.5-4KW range, meaning roughly 15 ideal miles/hr. Since most of my commute is at 35 mph, this is a percentage increase for me. Of course, if you're driving 70 you'll notice it much less (for roughly the same reason that ICE cars are more efficient at speed).
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  • Feb 1, 2011
    dsm363
    Finally! I can get in on this thread. It's going to be 19F here tonight but no snow. Does that count?=)
    Everyone stay safe. Sounds like this storm is going to be a big one.
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  • Feb 1, 2011
    doug
    Was intrigued by this:
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  • Feb 1, 2011
    TEG
    http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/cold-feet-roadster

    http://www.heizgewebe.de/
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  • Feb 1, 2011
    stenkb
    Haha - you guys make me laugh...... The last week in Southern Alberta the daytime highs have been -25 Celcius.... Lows at night of - 33 Celcius......... now that is cold..... :) Too bad my car will be in for repairs all winter, wanted to see how it handles a Canadian winter......grrrrrrrrr

    The one week I drove in winter my feet did freeze though - I remember that.
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  • Feb 1, 2011
    Doug_G
    That certainly doesn't jive with my logs. When stationary the whole car consumed on 1.5 to 1.8 kW, with the cabin heater and one seat heater on.

    4 kW is a LOT of heat in a small space, surely that would keep the Roadster very toasty. My car was decidedly not toasty at -26C. Maybe you have a much more powerful heater???

    In any case I did a detailed review of my logs. Traveling at the same speed in -26C (full heater) versus 20C weather (no climate control), the power consumption went up by about 1.8kW. That would knock perhaps 18 km off the full range.

    So my power consumption when the battery cold was not significantly higher than normal, yet the range display dropped alarmingly quickly at first before leveling off when the battery warmed up. What I think is really happening here is that the battery efficiency goes down at low temperatures, and the car is adjusting the range calculation accordingly.
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  • Feb 1, 2011
    Doug_G
    17F (-7C) sounds nice and balmy. On days like that I just wear a sweater, unless it's a howling gale.

    Did they tell you when they thought your car might be fixed? You must be in serious withdrawl by now.
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  • Feb 1, 2011
    stenkb
    Well it just finally made its way to Tesla....not as fast as you would think to get a car transported from point A to point B. A side benefit though - they had to move a lamborghini murcielago out of the trailer to fit my car in - and they let me drive it for a couple min......whoa - what a loud - powerful car!!! Anyways had to share....... I will probably get my car back in spring at best....... right now $80 gas in my H3 every 3 days...... real nice..... :( yes - missing the Tesla alot!!
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  • Feb 2, 2011
    cinergi
    My Roadster draws +8 amps according to the in-dash display when I turn the heat on. 375V ESS * 8A = 3kW. According to the logs, when I pre-heated my car on Jan 24th, I was drawing 7.2A at 399V (2.9kW).
    It's not sufficient at -22C for me (tho pre-heating helps a lot). 3kW should be enough but it appears to be struggling with poor insulation (both on the vent lines and the cabin itself). A 3kW heater shouldn't take as long as it does to start pumping warm air -- I have to turn the heat to the floor for several minutes before it's warm enough to blow in my face (... that's another topic)

    I can at least tell you that my max ESS power draw is 140kW when it's that cold versus 200+ when it's above freezing. Whether that change in max draw equates to reduced efficiency, I don't know.

    My whpm (watt-hours per mile) is significantly higher when both regen is disabled and heat is on max -- to the tune of +100 to +150. That's on secondary roads with various stops along the way. I don't know how different it is on the highway (constant speed).
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  • Feb 2, 2011
    Doug_G
    Hmm... my logs indicate that my power draw was significantly lower than that, and my recollection of the amp display agrees with that. Sounds like I'm not getting as much heat as you are. I'll have to investigate further.

    The internal resistance of Li-ion battery cells goes up at low temperatures. That would both reduce the maximum current draw and cause more internal self-heating. That self-heating is where your efficiency loss is, and therefore where your lost range is going. That said, the increased self-heating would help warm the pack back up to where it operates normally. The upshot is you're likely to lose a lot more miles doing several short, relatively slow trips. The battery pack would never get warm. With highway driving I would expect the pack performance to return to normal after a while, and the range loss would be limited (except for running the cabin heater).
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  • Feb 2, 2011
    mpt
    Come on! 19*F / -7*C.... You can have the 'Summer Performance' thread :)

    I'm working from home today 'cause my garage door has 'set'. -7*C pfft :)
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  • Feb 2, 2011
    cinergi
    I'm WFH cuz of the 2-day storm we just had on top of the ~10 storms over the past month resulting in:

    Tape measure at 6 feet, end of driveway
    IMG_0587.JPG

    At 4 feet, front entrance
    IMG_0588.JPG

    And the -22C temps we've had, and no garage. I don't want to hear it :) 0C actually literally feels WARM to me. I'm not kidding.

    Well, I ended up driving in at 2pm cuz I was stir-crazy. I have a story to write about my mid-storm commute today! I'll write that up when I'm not supposed to be working :)
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  • Feb 2, 2011
    TEG
    ( Palo Alto currently 63F, sunny, clear, and beautiful.
    Part of the reason that houses cost way too much around here. )
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  • Feb 2, 2011
    dsm363
    Yeah, just feeling a little left out I guess=) I grew up in the midwest so I've see some real winters before. It's amazing how crazy people go when it snows in areas that aren't used to it.
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  • Feb 2, 2011
    Doug_G
    Yeah, and while charging top dollar they can build them like crap and they still stand up...
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  • Feb 2, 2011
    TEG

    ...until     the shaking starts...
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  • Feb 2, 2011
    cinergi
    OK! SO! Back on topic ... :)

    I commuted today in the middle of the storm, so the roads were in pretty poor shape. For the most part, the roads were far from bare -- ranging from packed snow to slushy to solid-frozen ice+snow (hard to describe -- it wasn't ice, but it was frozen solid). 22F/-6C. Light freezing rain.

    Once again, I was impressed. I drove over plenty of areas of snow that were slightly higher than my clearance on my route -- no issues there. Plenty of traction throughout the entire drive, including the stuff that normally gives you serious problems, like 5 inches of slush uphill from a dead stop while turning through an intersection. It's very difficult to get the rear to swing out with TC turned on. I was constantly testing traction when it was safe to do so both by flooring it and by making rapid steering changes. I felt very in control.

    Since no one was at the office and the parking lot was empty, I turned TC off and did a few donuts. So fun! And I'm not making a huge racket (engine noise) doing it! :)
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  • Feb 2, 2011
    suxxer
    Nice tailpipe there ;)
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  • Feb 3, 2011
    cinergi
    *cough* I don't know what you're talking about ...:biggrin:

    So this morning's commute was awful -- I think they literally ran out of money to clean the roads. It's the worst driving I've been in in YEARS. Guess how the Roadster did?

    There were plenty of areas that looked like

    | |||| |

    Meaning a place for your tires, and several inches of slush in the middle. For the most part, the slush was actually not high enough for the Roadster to catch -- something else had already shaved it down. I was surprised by that.

    Traffic was inexplicably bad so I decided to take the back roads -- figuring that they'd been well-plowed 18 hours after the main precipitation was done. Boy was I wrong.

    I turned onto the back road where a big truck had just stopped coming the other direction, leaving me very little room to maneuver -- I had to hug (basically drive into) the side pile of snow. On top of that, there was a good 100-foot length of 5+ inch slush. I thought I was doomed for sure. It was slow, but steady. I didn't get stuck. I couldn't believe it.

    The rest of the road -- about 5 miles -- was a disaster; again, the worst driving conditions I've been in in years. Here, the snow between the tires was typically higher than my clearance, but not significantly so (5.5-6 inches). I was constantly shaving snow, and there was no bare road to be found. The roads were ridiculously narrow and I had to plow the right-side of the road (so my right tires were in very deep snow) whenever there was oncoming traffic. This is a typical place to get stuck or lose control -- but again, no issues.

    The summary is that I'm now more worried about how dirty my car gets (and seeing around these 10-foot piles of snow) than I am about driving in even the worst road conditions. Sure, it'll be slower than an AWD/4WD car, and I might get myself into a situation where I need to back up to re-alight my front end (so that I'm not aimed at a snow bank) or turn TC off, but I can't see myself getting flat-out stuck. Which, by the way, happened to an 18-wheeler that I passed on my way in. He had the state highway backed up for over an hour as they dug him out.

    :cool:
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  • Feb 3, 2011
    TEG
    Amazing! I never would have figured the Roadster to be such a capable extreme winter weather car.
    ( I don't think I would have the stomach to drive one in those conditions myself. )
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  • Feb 3, 2011
    Jaff
    Thanks for the report Ben...know what you mean about being able to see around the snowbanks at the end of each street / intersection...is difficult sometimes to see if there is oncoming traffic in such a low car.

    In Canada, we have to drive with at least our running lights on...makes a difference as I'm sure it can be difficult sometimes for 3rd parties to see us as well.

    Still, it is interesting to hear that you feel that you won't get stuck...(we haven't had enough snow all in one dump yet for me to test that theory out.)
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  • Feb 3, 2011
    Jaff
    Poor Ben! (Jersey really got dumped on again).

    I'm about 30 miles north of Niagara Falls...we were supposed to get about 40 cm (16"), but in fact only got about 7 cm...I think Jersey got our some of our share. :biggrin:

    I don't think anyone figured this TEG...folks around here think I'm nuts for driving the Roadster around in the snow :tongue:...the most common (erroneous) conclusions from speaking with non-EVers appears to be "that they can't believe that I can get any traction at all" and that the "cold temp will render the Roadster's battery inept, drastically reducing the vehicles range." Needless to say, I try to assuage these comments by citing my winter driving experiences to date and extolling the virtues of TM's brilliant effort in creating that, that is the Roadster.

    The only winter deficiencies I can see are being able to see oncoming traffic over the high snowbanks, and the slush that builds up on your doorsills...other than that, it's a superb winter drive imo.

    It is tough to see the slush & dirt build up on your new vehicle, but a cursory wash makes you feel a bit better about the situation.

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  • Feb 3, 2011
    dsm363
    I wanted to make sure I understood this correctly. It's cold enough here in Texas (mid 20s) that my car didn't have regen for the first time after sitting out in a parking garage (not plugged in) for a number of hours. If it's plugged in (even if it's not actively charging), it keeps the battery warm enough that you still have regen?
    It was a strange feeling not having regen. Took me a minute to figure out what was going on.
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  • Feb 3, 2011
    Doug_G
    You are correct. With the current firmware, if the car is plugged in and not in storage mode, it will keep the battery warm.
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  • Feb 3, 2011
    kgb
    Hey @dsm,

    I can't wait to try driving in the snow. Snow tonight and tomorrow!!! Im going to chime in too. For now, nothing but boring below freezing temps... that topic has been beaten to death. Tomorrow we start with snow but then it warms up to a high of 40F. So I'll have to get driving early :wink:
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  • Feb 3, 2011
    Lloyd
    At what temperature does the battery quit heating, and what temperature does the battery start a cooling cycle? Is there a separate cycle to cool with Fans, just using ambient air, and with the AC?
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  • Feb 3, 2011
    TEG
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  • Feb 4, 2011
    kgb
    UPDATE: We had our bad weather here in Houston. It wasn't snow... seems more like frozen rain. ...and my Tesla was up to the challenge - even with the sport tires (not snow tires!).

    Every overpass was covered with smooth ice. Many cars were stopped before the incline because they were watching other cars spin their wheels on the overpass. The only thing that seemed to stop my roadster was not any issue with traction, but rather, other cars that wouldn't get out of my way.

    I am convinced that the traction control Tesla is using is so superior to anything else I've ever seen or used, it is bound to be found in all future vehicles.
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  • Feb 4, 2011
    Lancelac
    We just had a massive snowstorm in Chicago and I continued to drive my Roadster every day. I never got stuck, but did get some grinding of the underside due the low clearance. Overall, I couldn't be happier. I could not imagine that any rear wheel drive would perform at the level that a few of the AWDs I've had in past did, but it does.
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  • Feb 4, 2011
    dpeilow
    Was going to say - just saw a picture of Lake Shore Drive in a paper here. Hope no one was driving in that...
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  • Feb 5, 2011
    dpeilow
    Love this advert from 1912

    35457568976.jpg
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  • Feb 5, 2011
    TEG
    The relatively skinny tires of the Roadster probably do a better job cutting through the slush to keep traction compared to some other supercars with much wider tires that are more optimal for warm/dry conditions.
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  • Feb 10, 2011
    MelTyree
    Perilli snow tires:
    Lethbridge AB has had lots of now this winter (I work there sometimes). How are the Perilli's holding up? I just moved from Edmonton, AB, to northern NY State (80 km south of Montreal). Lots of snow here too. I am looking for recommendations for good snow tires on my 1.5 Roadster #443.
    Any suggestions from others? I just asked the Tesla people in Menlo Park, but they don't have much snow in the Bay Area so would like input from Tesla owners in snow country.
    Mel
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  • Feb 10, 2011
    stenkb
    The Pirelli's work very well - grip very well in snow and ice. Went through snow higher than the center of the car - and never slipped or got stuck once.
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  • Feb 10, 2011
    Jaff
    I was surprised at this as well.

    I finally had my 110v & NEMA 14-50 plugs installed at the office.
    The first day I plugged in the 110v, I forgot to enter the "charge now" command...I thought a few hours later (-14C with wind) that I'd mucked up my effort to keep the battery warm with the 110v by not "charging now"...much to my surprise, when I disconnected & fired the car up, the regen was working fine!

    I think it is well worth the little time & effort it takes to plug in the 110v and retain the benefit of regen braking...I find it's just more fun to drive with regen..

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  • Feb 10, 2011
    Jaff
    Doh!!!...just went out 30 minutes ago...car plugged in...is -7C + lots of wind...no regen...WTF?

    I did plug in to the lower outlet of the new plug (for the first time)...I must admit that I didn't look for the green LED on the 110v cable...maybe the lower outlet is faulty / wasn't wired properly?

    Radio says windchill is about -25...maybe it's too cold? Has anyone else not had regen after being plugged in (but not charging) for about a 3 hour period?
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  • Feb 10, 2011
    Lancelac
    I don't live in snow and ice country, but we just had the storm of the decade here in Chicago and I was able to drive every day with no problem, including the day after when I saw only 2-3 other cars of any kind on the road. The Pirelli's were great, I never got stuck. The bigger problem with snow is the low ground clearance. It doesn't matter what tires you have if your wheels can't touch the ground. I think the weight being directly over the rear wheels also helps immensely when it comes to traction.
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  • Feb 10, 2011
    Jaff
    Lance, did you lose regen in the cold weather?

    I couldn't wait for the Pirelli's to be re-stocked, so I went with the Hankooks...so far, very satisfied with them!
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  • Feb 10, 2011
    Lancelac
    Most of the time I don't lose regen at all since I park in a garage both at home and the office. If I do go someplace and park outside for more than a few hours, I will definitely have Regen off for the first 15 minutes or so after.
    �
  • Feb 10, 2011
    cinergi
    Yes, though it's just at the tipping point... it's re-enabled after a mile or two (versus 20+).
    �
  • Feb 11, 2011
    Jaff
    Thanks Ben...my drive home is only 1.5 km...if the regen gets enabled earlier as you say, my trip is too short to recognize this.
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  • Feb 11, 2011
    mpt
    Regen: All off or not? Apologies to those that already 'got' this!

    I've been confused by what's meant by regen being off-off. It seems that there are three types of regen off:

    1. Battery full - In this mode, after a range mode charge, regen is reduced, it still works a little so a downhill run will net a return but as the battery is depleted the regen becomes stronger and stronger until its back to normal and the light goes out.

    2. Too cold - In this mode regen is off completely, no regen at all, just like neutral. As the battery warms regen will turn back on like a switch was thrown and the light will go out. This, so far has only happened whilst driving, i.e. never whilst coasting.

    3. Fake regen off - Place the car in storage mode, leave a couple of weeks then recharge normally. For the first journey, Regen light comes on but regen seems to work ok.
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  • Feb 11, 2011
    Jaff
    Thanks for posting this Michael...I was unaware of situation #3.

    My pack was about 95% full when this occurred...I had a range of about 287 kms out of a normal standard charde of 298-302 kms...so I had a little room for additional charge.

    When I started up, the regen was off & the warning light was on...I just assumed it was the cold weather...
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  • Feb 12, 2011
    cinergi
    Actually for #2, it's happened while coasting for me. Fortunately it's not instantaneous full regen and sudden slowdown, but it's pretty quick. But my foot's pretty quick, too :)
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  • Feb 16, 2011
    Doug_G
    Cabin Heater Performance

    I made an interesting discovery last night. The heater power level depends not just on the heat/cool knob, but also on the fan speed. Here is my data:

    Heat off, Fan any - 1.0 amp average
    Heat full, Fan off - 1.0 amp average
    Heat full, Fan 1 - 3.0 amp average
    Heat full, Fan 2 - 6.8 amp average
    Heat full, Fan full - 9.5 amp average

    So if you're feeling cold in the cabin, you need to crank the fan all the way up.
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  • Feb 16, 2011
    vfx
    Makes sense. You can;t have the coils just getting hot. They have to have a fan to keep the temp down. But I find if you put the fan to high then you get cold air blowing until the coil heats up.
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  • Feb 16, 2011
    cinergi
    When it's really cold, I notice than heat full, fan 2 is 8-9 amps until it warms up and it'll drop down to 7 amps. At that point, I sometimes run the fan at 3, but that tends to dilute the air too much for my liking until the cabin is warm enough to support it (via recirc).
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  • Feb 16, 2011
    Doug_G
    Well, yes, they need some air flow to prevent the heater from getting too hot. But there are several problems with this:

    1. Fan on medium is plenty to keep the heater from overheating.

    2. Fan on high is very noisy. Lowering the fan to medium transfers just as much heat, and the heat out of the vents is actually warmer. You're just drawing in too much cold air if it's on full (in winter conditions you can't put it on recirculate or the inside of the car will frost over).

    3. During the time that the air is still cold, before the heater warms up, you need to set the fan to low and put it on the windshield. Otherwise your breath will fog over the windscreen. But if you put it on high while the air is still cold you risk a flash fog-over, which is dangerous.
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  • Feb 17, 2011
    Alan
    Agree with comments above - fan on medium with air on recycle seems a good compromise.

    Like many I have the cold feet issue so have messed around with the vents to get more air to the drivers side (RHD car) which has improved things. Has anyone played around with improving the thermal insulation in the footwell. Perhaps more carpet or some insulating foam under the existing carpets.
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  • Feb 19, 2011
    cinergi
    So here's a kicker on range. It was 55-60F here Thursday and Friday ... And my EM SURPASSED my IM purely on my daily commute (some hills but net-zero elevation change). I was reading 185 EM with 175 IM. When it was really cold, my EM was 110 at most. My whpm 30-mile avg was very low 200's vs. 300-370. I used well more than 25% when very cold vs. Well less than 25% (I'll try to get accurate SOC numbers from the logs later).
    My average speed is probably less than 30 (I should set up a trip and actually measure it, but I know it takes 30-35 minutes to go 16 miles). Thinking about that ... It means I'm using 3kW over 30 minutes or 1500 watt-hours ... Over 16 miles that's 94 whpm to Heat the cabin on high, which is in line with the increases I saw on my whpm graph... That's not even including what I lost with regen disabled for the return trip home... (I should also measure that). So off the highway (some stop and go, 30 MPH average) traveling in the cold is nearly 50% more energy (33% less range). Am I missing something (check my math)?
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  • Mar 21, 2011
    mpt
  • Mar 21, 2011
    Doug_G
    I avoid air recirculation like the plague, unless the A/C is on. Here in Ottawa it's so humid most of the time you'll fog up in minutes with the recirc on. This is true for any car, not just Roadster.
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  • Mar 29, 2011
    Brian H
    Some people have mentioned that blocking the passenger-side footwell vent works fine for cold feet. Doesn't freeze the passenger, just seems to cut total airflow enough to produce fully heated air, I'd guess.

    Also, the 30W floor/seat heated pads available placed appropriately seem to do the job. Forget the brand name ...
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  • Mar 29, 2011
    mpt
    Yes, here: Living with a Tesla Roadster

    What happens is that the normal configuration results in 80% of the warm air going to the passenger & 20% wafts over to the driver. This patch diverts 100% of the air diagonally across towards the driver resulting in more like a 50/50 split of the warmth. I used that metal duct tape and it's stuck ok for more than a year now.
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  • Mar 29, 2011
    zack
    Someone posted on the forum somewhere about insulation that can be cut and fitted under the carpet. It seemed like excellent stuff, multi-layered with both acoustic and thermal properties. Does anyone know where that post is? I've used the search function to no avail.
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  • Mar 29, 2011
    Eberhard
    That won't help. the problem is the air from outside. first: you can only prevent the cold air to come from outside by setting to internal circulation and setting to upstream. second: wrap your feet in a heating mat. third: engage the electric heater and block the outlet to the passenger-side.
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  • Mar 29, 2011
    Doug_G
    That's a non-starter around here. Too much humidity. The car windshield would frost over within minutes - sometimes even seconds.
    �
  • Mar 29, 2011
    Eberhard
    then choose #2 or #3
    �
  • Mar 29, 2011
    zack
    If anyone knows where that information was posted, please let me know.
    �
  • Mar 29, 2011
    TEG
  • Mar 29, 2011
    TEG
  • Apr 12, 2011
    zack
    Ahh, I found it! More summertime mods to be made to the car in preparation for cold weather driving.

    Jay Leno's garage... Dynamat!

    The guy from the company says "first dynamat extreme on everything. Then dynaliner, 1/8" on sides, 1/4" to 1/2" on the floor, and 1/2" on the firewall. Not that there's a firewall in the Tesla, but more insulation is better in my book, when it comes to air leaks and cold aluminum!
    �
  • Apr 13, 2011
    Eberhard
    Pure insulation doesn't work. You need active heating.
    �
  • Apr 25, 2011
    cinergi
    Indeed I just experienced #1 for the first time this past weekend. When it's 100% full, there's basically NO regen. As you get closer to 90% SOC, it gradually increases in strength (all while the NO REGEN light is on) and at some point, it snaps to full strength. The g-force curve isn't great when in this mode ... e.g. when approaching a toll in this mode, there was almost no braking forces at 40 MPH so I'm using the brakes ... and as I approach 20 MPH, the effect of regen really starts to kick in so it gets difficult to control how quickly I'm braking. The regen seems to be capped at a KW number and thus as you approach slower speeds, more braking force is required to stay at that capped number. (You can see this effect with normal regen on the highway ... lift off the pedal at 80 MPH and you'll stay at ~35 KW for a while .. and as your speed lowers, the braking g-forces increase)
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  • Apr 26, 2011
    mpt
    Regen level seems to be a very variable thing between cars; you're experiencing what MINI E drivers expect as the norm; the difference is that you don't expect it. In the MINI E the regen is a constant, max regen, whereas the Roadster regen normally fades as you slow, the MINI remains constant so the braking force increases as you slow. Lift off at 65mph and the regen is firm but as you slow down it gets stronger and stronger peaking at about 40mph and staying strong right down to about 7mph where is eases off and finally disengages completely at about 1mph.

    It's no wonder people have such different views on regen; they're all different.
    �
  • Apr 26, 2011
    vfx
    Regen issues.

    Anyone feel a change in the regen on their cars? I don't mean based on full charge but overall change. Are there settings, software or switched (mechanical?), that would change the regen profile? Mine seems weaker than before. Perhaps at the last service and/or firmware upgrade?
    There is a local stop sign that I know when I approach it with CC on at 50mph I know the exact roadside fence point to tap the brake (lights come on) so the car comes to a complete stop at the sign (and starts to creep). Now that brake point has moved up the road further away from the stop sign and I have not done a Range charge in weeks.
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  • Apr 26, 2011
    SByer
    Maybe. I thought it felt weaker after the service, but I don't have anything near as close to a definitive measurement. If it is weaker and not just my imagination, it's got to be only by a small amount, but I always wanted it stronger in the first place.
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  • Apr 26, 2011
    Doug_G
    What firmware version are you running?
    �
  • Apr 26, 2011
    SByer
    Very fresh (had it's second service 3 weeks ago). Went out to get the firmware version, but if you open the charge port it skips the splash screen where it gives the version, and there isn't any other VDS screen where it appears. I'll try and pay attention when I turn the car on tomorrow. The old version was a year old.
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  • Apr 27, 2011
    vfx
    Service about two months ago. Still has the charger error screen come on (even though it's still charging) that stops you from knowing how many mile it's filled to.
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  • Apr 27, 2011
    zack
    I just charged in Performance mode and of course the regen was turned off when I pulled the car out of the garage, which was the first time I experienced that... had to brake in a hurry! When the regen returned, it did seem weaker than before. I'll see tomorrow how it feels when it starts from being cool.
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  • Apr 28, 2011
    dsm363
    I can see it every time I turn the car on. The initial splash screen shows it in tiny font (upper right corner of the VDS).
    �
  • Apr 28, 2011
    SByer
    Yeah, if you're in the car and use the key. I thought I was being clever by opening the charge port to see it instead of leaning in and using the key. Not so much. Yes, if I use the key first, I get 3.5.18. I'l also note that I also got the sound kit installed, which adds weight, so that could also be the difference.
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  • May 2, 2011
    AndrewBissell
    I also felt that regen was reduced after my recent (April) annual service. So much so that I phoned Tesla to ask. No enlightenment there. Unfortunately I don't know what firmware I was on before, so cannot say if it changed.

    I do note that the max kW of regen are about 35 - can't recall if it went higher before.
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  • May 2, 2011
    zack
    I'm certain mine went to 40kW before.
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  • May 3, 2011
    Doug_G
    My Roadster always peaked at about 35 regen. You could peg the needle on acceleration but not deceleration.

    If they have modified it then it's the curve that has changed, not the peak.
    �
  • May 3, 2011
    Dragon
  • Dec 7, 2012
    Brian H
    Old thread, I know, but I've seen another tip: block the passenger floor vent. Barely affects the passenger side, but warms the driver side considerably. Since the driver's the one whose feet need to stay in about the same position, and are critical for survival ...
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  • Dec 7, 2012
    Brian H
    A guy in Alaska claimed 40K miles with about a 5mi. range loss. Cold hath its benefits.
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  • Jan 28, 2013
    Botbldr45
    Anybody drive routinely in rain,snow and on salty roads?
    How do you get salt off of the car, bottom and rear wheel well?? I read on some thread that you shouldn't spray water in rear wheel well ....... It that true?
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  • Jan 28, 2013
    mpt
    I do. I used to spray water into the rear wheel arches which killed my PEM fan! After the new PEM fan that shouldn't be an issue however, I'm careful to use modest pressure (not the pressure washer), and don't have any problems anymore.
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  • Jan 28, 2013
    Botbldr45
    Thanks for info .....
    Don't want to leave salt on car too long.
    What a mess under door seal!!!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Had regen go out due to cold for first time!!! What a strange feeling. Worried about me stock brakes for the first time.
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  • Jan 28, 2013
    mpt
    On the door thing - I must recommend the door sill update - part of the sound insulation pack I think but, no more opening the door to find a sill made completely of dirty road ice!

    No regen, yeah - freaky! Our northerly brethren have moaned about it a lot... I thought pfft, really guys? Er, sorry guys. I just got into a cold car this week as I'm no longer working in a building with underground parking - I just discovered that I had brakes and had to use them!
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  • Jan 29, 2013
    hcsharp
    I spray tons of water in there, almost every day if there's salt. If you have the new fan with the shroud it won't be a problem. Even if you don't i wouldn't worry about it. My neighbors think I'm crazy cuz my car sometimes has icicles. If it's too cold I use a 2-gallon garden sprayer and fill it with hot water. I often think of taking my car off the road in the winter but it's such a let down driving another car.
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