Oct 14, 2011
widodh Indeed!
Single phase, 3-phase and DC charging. Those three together each fill some charging needs which brings you to a 100%
70%: home charging
20%: Level 2 3-phase charging (10 ~ 20kW)
10%: Fast charging (>50kW)
They can and will co-exist.
Btw, Eberhard, Mobile? 65kg!�
Oct 14, 2011
TEG Yes, as others are pointing out - still way too heavy/big/expensive.
Lets hope that Tesla (or someone) made some engineering breakthrough and will offer something at a fraction of that weight/size/price.�
Oct 14, 2011
Norbert Ah, I thought Kevin (and others before) were talking about a J1772-to-Mennekes cable that could do this without problems.�
Oct 14, 2011
VolkerP What makes me flounder
- some info bits trickle from Tesla: "you will love the new charge port architecture". "sales rep indicated not cables but adapters". "completely hidden" and so on
- it is their second EV and they still don't get it right. 3.6kW for home charging is an artificial limit of the car, not of European electric systems.�
Oct 14, 2011
dpeilow But in problem countries you may then find the public Mennekes EVSE limiting that to 16A.�
Oct 14, 2011
Norbert And where you can get it you often have to pay for an installation of new cabling.
I think there are new laws asking builders to do (or at least prepare) just that.�
Oct 14, 2011
Eberhard I was talking to JB Straubel in Fremont and requested to fulfill his promise fot 3-ph charging, but he denied an pointed to the DC interface. I think i have to travel again to meet again at the next general meeting in June 2012.
If Tesla is going to offer 10kW onboard charger, than I have to use it as an 10kW according to the standards of my country. If not, Tesla is been faulty.
There is no technical reason, even no financial one to do it.�
Oct 15, 2011
emq The EU homologation responable, prepare to include the charging interface in homologation.
Concequencies:
UMC > Instead of red 3ph CEE 32 plug,
> blue CEE 16/32 single phase plug,
with aktive Information to clients to country limits like 16A 230/400V for CH,
20A 230/400 V Germany, Austria, etc.
Model S, Asumption 90kWh accu.
Legal charging time 0-100% SOC: 90kWh 16A/230V > 3680W > 25h
Legal charging time 0-100% SOC: 90kWh 20A/230V > 4600W > 20h
8h Night Charge for 90kWh needs 11kW Charging > in EU Offboard DC Charging estimated 10`000 $ aditional cost for equipment with installation.
Onboard 11kW 16A 3x230/400V 3ph Charging estimated 1000 $ aditional cost to 1ph 10kW 230/240V charger.
Who wants to buy a 20-25h charging time car or spend estimated 10000 $ to charge in 8h ?
If anyone likes to help my ideas / swiss-english, easier to understand, please send a PM and i bring it in�
Oct 16, 2011
neroden This seems to be definitely planned. But it may not eliminate the need for 3-phase support.
EDIT: I suspect, given that European cars are *all* going to be delivered after a *lot* of American cars -- Euro Signatures will likely come after some of the US general production -- that Tesla has time to develop a 3-phase-ready onboard charger for the European market, which will probably not be available in the US market.
Keep pushing them to do so, though.
In the US market, 3-phase is only available in commercial or industrial places, where it would probably make sense to install a DC charging station, so the demand for 3-phase charging here seems low. The Euro market is another matter.�
Oct 16, 2011
neroden Bleah. Not only is that a bad move period, Tesla clearly *must* offer a cheap 3-phase *home* charging system if they want ANY sales in Europe. The charging-on-the-road problem could be settled if they expand their fast charging network enough, but the home problem? From the numbers you've shown it needs 3-phase.
In the US, 3-phase is available primarily in locations where you'd have to do enough installation work that you might as well install a DC charger -- 3-phase plugs are nonexistent. But not so in Europe it seems.
Do present these stats on European *homes* to JB Straubel again and tell him the Euro model needs an affordable way to charge at home overnight from 3-phase. Maybe he'll get the message. If not, try one of the other executives.�
Oct 16, 2011
TEG
What is your source of "definitely planned"?
The few people I talked to from Tesla gave no commitment. To the contrary there was a suggestion that they were resisting CHAdeMO thinking it may go away in the long term.�
Oct 16, 2011
Eberhard i really don't understand why Tesla doesn't want do support 3-ph charging. there is no technical or cost reason. instead of 2x 10kW onboard 3x 7,5kW connected to different phases, thats it. but even to connect the two onboard charger to different phases is not supported.�
Oct 16, 2011
dpeilow There's enough time for them to engineer a solution, so I don't think it helps to keep saying "Tesla are doing this or aren't doing this" until we know more.
Let's just put to them what we want to see, as Widodh is doing, and not keep endlessly speculating. It doesn't help.�
Oct 16, 2011
Eberhard JB Straubel told my, that he is sick about the discussion. The decision is made, the answer is "NO" but you can us DC with any external DC Charger i want (if they are compatible with Tesla). This was a harsh answer to me. I fly over from germany to see and ride the Model S. I payed 30.000� and than this answer?
How can i be part of their success, if i have to cancel my reservation because of lack of understanding, what the europeans need? its not that i want 3-ph charging here, we need 3-ph charging here
from Georg Blankenship
Teslas knows the situation in Europe. But they ignore.�
Oct 16, 2011
widodh If he's sick about the discussion, then we are doing something rightIt's on his attention.
Please, do sent those signatures! Endorse my letter to Tesla for supporting 3-phase charging for the Model S
As MUCH as possible, that will sent a strong message to them.
After the Milan opening I indeed assumed there would be 3-phase support, but after seeing the new connector I knew we were screwed.
It is so simple, add L2 and L3 to the new connector and you are almost done!�
Oct 16, 2011
VolkerP The reasons for adding 3 phase support now have been discussed quite a while.
Another question for me is, what are the benefits for Tesla do DENY 3 phase support? Because once we understand that, we could tackle these points.
Well here goes my list of assumptions "why Tesla does not support 3 phase"
1) don't want to redesign the new Model S plug to support 3 phase
2) don't want to engineer new on board charging unit for 3 phase and 11 to 22kW
3) cannot allocate scarce engineering resources to that problem
4) only low numbers would be achieved (perhaps 25% of all Model S cars sold in 2013 & 2014), thus very high cost
5) don't want to loose face
6) would delay start of European sales
7) incorporation of 3 phase design elements would lead to redesign of car parts that are ready for production, thus putting general production deadline at stake
8) keep focus on North America market and not get distracted by anything.
Please feel free to add to that list and what you think of that positions.�
Oct 16, 2011
TEG Promised 45 minute recharge, and can't do that for 300 mile range pack unless they get 90kW. The only way they see to do that is for DC from 400V+
Think that people on Road trips will find 22kW too slow.�
Oct 16, 2011
dpeilow As has been said multiple times, no one is asking them to take the 90kW DC charge out.
From VolkerP's list I'd say it's 3 and 8 right now.�
Oct 16, 2011
TEG Well, not just offer 90kW for special circumstances, but also try to make it the norm for highway charging...�
Oct 16, 2011
widodh True, 22kW might be seen as slow, but it depends on the situation.
90kW is indeed a fast charge and 22kW a medium charge. But if I drive to location X where I'm going to be for about 6 hours, 22kW will be enough to give me a 100% SoC before leaving again.
Like said before, DC and AC charging, low, medium and high, they don't mutually exclude each other.�
Oct 17, 2011
GSP 90 kW is indeed much better than 10-20 kW for road trips. But, Tesla also offers 10 and 20 kW AC charging to North American customers. This is very useful for home and destination charging. Why deny European customers this option? I like VolkerP's suggestion to work on Tesla's reasons not to, and see what can be done to eliminate them.
GSP�
Oct 17, 2011
widodh 9) They really don't see the problem in Europe. They underestimate the impact of the lack of 3-phase support�
Oct 17, 2011
Alfred 10) Tesla anticipates that en-route DC-charging will dominate from 22 kW, obviating the need for (rarely used) intermediate power charging.
11) Tesla has some other solution up their sleeves (mobile 3p AC->DC adapter, 11-22 kW?).�
Oct 17, 2011
Kevin Harney I think #11 seems quite likely to me !!! Tesla is not going to ignore the EU market and they announced the US plugs that will be easily converted to be used in the EU later when necessary.�
Oct 17, 2011
vfx I think it's #10 but hope for you guyz it's #11�
Oct 18, 2011
EV_de fresh Brusa charger spec's from e-carTec :
BRUSA_NLG6_Charger.pdf
�
Oct 18, 2011
Tommy It looks like you're attributing all of the loss to the charger. The 1000-1500W of loss is across ALL components in the charging circuit not just the charger. The closest device I can think of that would have similar loss to the charger is a solar inverter; these typically have 94-97% efficiency. Not nearly the heat output of a blow dryer.�
Oct 18, 2011
neroden Tell him "We cannot charge at home overnight without 3-phase; our local laws prohibit high-amperage one-phase. How do we plug Model S in to 3-phase at home?"
It is clear that home 3-phase support is essential for European models -- ask them what they're doing about it.
If they decide to simply delay European production so they have time to design 3-phase support, that's an acceptable answer -- more acceptable than condemning Europeans to 27-hour charging times at home. And it would allow them to stay focused on the North American market for now.�
Oct 18, 2011
widodh That is exactly what my intention is with my letter: Endorse my letter to Tesla for supporting 3-phase charging for the Model S
Tell Tesla again, and in a nice way, that without 3-phase support we will be looking at very long charge times.�
Oct 19, 2011
richkae 5 variables:
A = the cost to Tesla to develop 3 phase charger and connector option
B = profit margin on the 3 phase charger option
C = the number of customers who will buy the optional 3 phase charger option
D = profit per car
E = the number of customers who will NOT buy the car at all because 3 phase is not available
For Tesla to do it they need A < B*C + D*E
Apparently they do not think that will be the case.
Given that they think the network of fast DC chargers will exist - they may believe that fact will make both C and E smaller than you believe.�
Oct 20, 2011
Kevin Sharpe don't forget that the 90kW DC Chargers will have a 3-Phase front end.... that maybe as simple as one charger per phase... just allow European drivers to install 3 x 10kW into the car at launch and then develop a smaller and lighter 20kW Charger later.�
Oct 20, 2011
Eberhard Zivan is offering a 3-ph charger with about 9kW for around 1.200�.
Brusas NLG6 with 22kW price could be below 2.000� when ordered in numbers.
Teslas onboard charger looks to be cheap, but lacks efficiency. the Brusa NLG6 is 95-97%. The Zivan only around 90%�
Oct 20, 2011
Kevin Sharpe Great! any possibility that they will be compatible and approved for use with the Model S?�
Oct 20, 2011
Eberhard They will never get any approval for Model S. We can do it only on our own risk.�
Oct 20, 2011
Kevin Sharpe sure... and that stops us from deploying it in public locations for all to use....�
Oct 20, 2011
rabar10 I don't know how you could substantiate that claim, seeing that nobody outside Tesla has any experience with or data collected when using/testing these onboard chargers. They weren't even used at the Beta Launch party. (And its efficiency is beside the point w/r/t this discussion anyways)�
Oct 20, 2011
EV_de So I can sell my Tesla charger that comes with the car on ebay , and buy a "european suitable" from BRUSA ..... :cursing:
Ohh wait, I have to drill a new hole, cause the ChargePort isn't wide enough for the Mennekes inlet ... :cursing: - again�
Oct 20, 2011
VolkerP Not sure what we're talking about here.
possibility 1) use the BRUSA charger inside the charger module bay of Model S with full approval by Tesla. IMO highly unprobable.
possibility 2) BRUSA as an external DC source. compatibility with the DC charging protocol approved by Tesla.
I think 2) is the scenario on Kevin's mind. and Eberhard may favorize 1).�
Oct 20, 2011
EV_de possibility 1�
Oct 20, 2011
Kevin Sharpe sorry for the confusion.... I was just looking for a way by which we might encourage Tesla to sell us low cost DC Charging Stations while making them attractive to potential locations that will see many more Leaf's than Model S.�
Oct 22, 2011
Eberhard Maybe we should build our own charger. Here i got a link to build the most advanced 3-phase vienna charger.
Free Reports: Power Electronics Simulation and Application�
Oct 22, 2011
Eberhard A very detailed description of a Three-Phase PFC Rectifier can be found here:
http://www.pes.ee.ethz.ch/uploads/tx_ethpublications/Kolar_Essence_PFC_INTELEC_2011.pdf
All this shows, that was Tesla is doing with mono phase charging may be simple and cheap but not efficient.�
Oct 22, 2011
widodh Let's wait how Tesla is going to respond on my letter together with all the endorsements!�
Nov 7, 2011
neroden Given the state of electrical supply to homes in Europe, it's clear that A < D*E. If we're talking about a *relatively low power* 3-phase charging solution for home use (so that Europeans can get at least the same rate of home charging which Americans get from a NEMA 14-50). It may not be worth it for them to develop something bigger, as it may be cheaper for them to simply build a fast DC charging network.�
Nov 7, 2011
neroden DC-to-DC adapters are a triviality. Given that Tesla is supporting DC charging, they're going to make them.�
Nov 7, 2011
neroden I'm thinking hard about this. I'm wondering (a) how cheap Tesla's HPC2.0 is going to be, (b) whether it can be safely installed outside, and (c) whether it's considered legal for municipal (rather than residential) installation. Because what may make sense for visitors is to arrange to get one installed somewhere in downtown rather than home.
Makes more sense than installing J1772 charging stations which are slower than a NEMA 14-50.�
Nov 8, 2011
widodh Any idea how many 3-phase connections there are in Europe?
Also, a 3-phase charger is not expensive at all, most of the time it is even cheaper then a 1-phase charger with the same capacity.
"Simply" build a DC network? No way, that is not going to happen in a short period of time. DC chargers will never be able to cover ALL of Europe, while 3-phase is already doing that.�
Nov 8, 2011
tomsax Instead of installing a Tesla HPC 2.0 that only Model S owners can use, it makes much more sense to install 70A or higher J1772 stations for public charging. The J1772 standard allows for charging at up to 240V and 80A, more than the current HPC allows. Most stations being installed now are limited to 30A because the federal grants that are funding them impose that limit. It's too bad those federal grants are flooding the landscape with puny 30A charging stations and thus slowing the deployment of full-speed Level 2 units.
Clipper Creek offers the CS-100, a J1772 station that supports 75A charging which is basically the same box that Tesla sells as an HPC but with a J1772 connector. Siemens has announced the VersaCharge that supports 70A charging, including optional support for metering, with availability late this year and early next year. Both are rated for outdoor use. Eaton has announced they will support 70+ amp charging and a wide variety of billing models.
For more options as they become available, check out Plug In America's EVSE list sorted by maximum amperage.�
Nov 8, 2011
robaross I know there are no stupid questions, only stupid people. With the standard 10kW charger I understand I will need only a NEMA 14-50 since the HPC 2.0 would be useless. But for highway charging, will a quick charge be only half as fast, or is this apples and oranges (is this AC vs. DC)?�
Nov 8, 2011
Lloyd Eaton does not yet produce this 70 amp unit. From my calls today "We do not intend to produce this product until there are sufficient vehicles on the road that can utilize this potential." They have no time line on when that might be. "You can try checking back in six months."�
Nov 8, 2011
widodh The 10kW charger is for AC only.
Quickcharging (90kW) is done with DC and in that process the internal car charger is by-passed so does not pose a limit to the charging current.
If you don't take the second AC charger (10kW) you'll not be limited with DC charging.�
Nov 8, 2011
Larry Chanin Hi Rob,
As I understand it DC fast charging bypasses the on-board charger. For AC charging you would be limited to the the capacity of the on-board charger.
Larry�
Nov 8, 2011
tomsax The DC Quick Charger, aka the Supercharger, goes directly to the battery pack and doesn't use the on-board charger, so you get the same charging speed whether you have the 10 kW or 20 kW charger on-board.
However, if you end up doing any traveling where there aren't any DC Quick Chargers but there are full Level 2 charging stations, then having the 20 kW charger on board will make a difference. It doesn't matter for overnight charging, the 10 kW charger will do that nicely, but it does matter if you need to stop mid-trip and wait to get enough charge to finish your drive.�
Oct 2, 2012
rolosrevenge I honestly think Tesla is doing it exactly the right way. They've got the best connector out there but their communication protocol is the same that J1772 uses. That means even the J1772 DC charger can be used with a mere plug adapter, like their J1772 AC adapter. If Tesla has a superior connector while using the standard protocols, then it just becomes a question of who sells more EVs in the next 5 years. If Tesla becomes the major EV player, others will want to copy them, especially if more Tesla 20 kW chargers start going up. The big thing really is that all of the little commuter EVs need to charge around town with the 6.6 kW J1772's to be practical. A Model S will almost never need that sort of topping off during the day, but just in case, you've got a slick little adapter that comes with the car.�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe Remember that the vast majority of vehicles around the globe will NOT use the Tesla proprietary connector. I suspect that Tesla owners will end up carrying lots of adapters (just like the Roadster) while other manufacturers vehicles can simply plug in.�
Oct 3, 2012
JRP3 Wouldn't that be just one adapter? Hardly a burden. As MPT said in the last Transportation Evolved, I'd rather use a better plug most of the time when I plug in at home and use an adapter on occasion.�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe Type 1 ("J1772"), Type 2 ("mennekes"), CHAdeMO, and all the new DC connectors will require adapters. In the wild you will find a tiny percentage of Charging Stations with Native Tesla connectors (just like today).�
Oct 3, 2012
JRP3 So how can other manufacturer's vehicles "simply plug in" when you've just listed 4 different types of connecters? No matter what Tesla owners will have to carry only one more adapter than anyone else, while having a sleeker plug to use 99% of the time.�
Oct 3, 2012
Robert.Boston Alternatively, if Tesla were to freely share its plug specs, then it could become the industry standard. It wouldn't be the first time that a design-by-committee was overtaken by a superior design developed by someone with commercial skin in the game.
Also, given the Tesla's range, the vast majority of charging will either be at home (no need for "grazing" while shopping) or at SC sites (as relatively few charging stations are being located to support inter-city travel).
I agree that Tesla drivers will be investing in some connectors. I disagree with your assertion, Kevin, that everyone else will not. There is no single standard around the globe, or even within a country. SAE? CHAdeMO? Mennekes? Unless the car has multiple plug points, every car will need some adapters to use the full range of available plugs. (Right, what @JRP just said.)�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe No, you are wrong... Type 2 ("mennekes") supports 43kW AC and 70kW DC with the same physical connector (and 140kW DC with the addition of 2 pins);
Vehicle inlets and connectors type 2 for AC and DC charging
- - - Updated - - -
By supporting two connectors today (J1772 and CHAdeMO) the car could have used existing infrastructure with no adapters.
However, selecting the Type 2 ("mennekes") connector from the beginning would have supported a global connector standard that is widely deployed... no need for a proprietary connector at all.�
Oct 3, 2012
4sevens.com No not just the adaptor.... The TM plug handles a variety of voltages and current as well as being able to handle DC and AC. It's a smart plug and reconfigures and adapts. I'm sure there is software and protocol communicating between car and plug to ensure they see "eye to eye" before an ounce of energy is sent. Not just a hardware adaptor.�
Oct 3, 2012
vfx Anyone care to speculate what Tesla will have to do plug-wise in EU? Adapter wise?
I guess the question is. will an American MS be the exact same plug and power as a EU version?
Franz said the entire car had to be built for worldwide specs.�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe If Tesla want a future in Europe they must support Type 2 ("mennekes") on the car.... putting barriers in the way of consumers is suicide especially as the competition grows from established European Car brands.�
Oct 3, 2012
dsm363 I have no problem using the new, small J1772 adapter that Tesla includes in the car the once or twice a year I need it. The new Tesla connector and cable are a big improvement over the old and anything else out there in the US at least.�
Oct 3, 2012
TEG By "widely deployed" I think you mean mostly in Europe. I don't think Mennekes has been used much in North America or Asia for instance.
I suppose Tesla could have chosen to "go their own way" by championing Mennekes in North America but then they would probably get criticism from SAE, and also end up with a larger, less elegant connector than what they devised on their own.
They agreed that European Model S will have 3 phase charging options, right? So, do we have any idea what connector they will use for that? The current Model S plug/socket is only for single phase AC or direct DC, but not 3 phase. They must have something different in mind for European Model S that need 3 phase charging. Maybe they will put Mennekes on those, or perhaps some variant of the new Tesla Plug/socket with a Mennekes adapter? Tesla seems OK with providing small adapters, such as they are doing with the J1772 right now. (Although people need to be careful not to leave their adapter at the charging station when they go.)�
Oct 3, 2012
Jeff N I rented a LEAF on a trip to Portland, Oregon in late November last year. On my one experience with the Takasago brand CHAdeMO charger there I took a short video of its display screen shortly after starting the charge. It showed the car was drawing 382V at 95A (36kW) with a charge status at 35%. My memory is that during the charge the voltage slowly ramped higher and the amperage slowly dropped but I did not keep careful records of the charging rampdown towards the end. The ambient outside temperature where the LEAF had been stored and driven was in the 30's but the charging location was the underground parking garage of a downtown office building. Perhaps the charging rate might have been faster if the pack started off warmer.�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe Yes, I'm talking about the 700+ million consumers in Europe.
That's a matter of opinion... I personally think the Type 2 ("mennekes") connector is a perfect size and much more robust than the Tesla design.
Thats what they said...
IEC 61851 does not allow adaptors in Europe.�
Oct 3, 2012
sublimaze1 You are all on the wrong page of the manual. The solution is already out there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIOqOxI0K_I�
Oct 3, 2012
bonnie As with all standards, there is some wiggle room. (Not saying it's easy, only that it's not quite as clearcut as you state.) RE IEC 61851:
�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe Sorry but that's incorrect;
IEC 61851-1 Edition 2.0 2010-11 6.3.3 "Adaptors shall not be used to connect a vehicle connector to a vehicle inlet"�
Oct 3, 2012
EV_de after the Roadster Plug "disaster" a non "Mennekes" vehicle inlet wouldn't be accepted in EU ...�
Oct 3, 2012
TEG Nice!
- - - Updated - - -
What is the definition of "vehicle connector"? Can the "vehicle connector" include the equivalent of a "built-in adaptor?"
For instance, can they make a cable that has Mennekes on one side, and some sort of Model S proprietary plug on the other side?
In the USA, we are used to having a cable and plug hang off the EVSE, but I gather in Europe is is more common for the EVSE to just have a socket, and the "customer" brings along their own interface cable...�
Oct 3, 2012
Norbert However it requires the Mennekes+DC Frankenplug, not just a type 2.�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe IEC 61851-1 Edition 2.0 2010-11 3.15.1 "vehicle connector - part of a vehicle coupler integral with, or intended to be attached to, the flexible cable connected to the a.c. supply network (mains)"
Yes, so long as the proprietary plug meets all the other standards referenced in IEC 61851-1 then a cable assembly can be used to connect two different connectors (that's how we connect Type 1 "J1772" to Type 2 "mennekes" Charging Stations).
The main point to understand is that Tesla's current approach of 'adaptors' between the cable connector (J1772 for example) and the car (Model S for example) is expressly forbidden. Given that our new IET wiring code of practice (NEC equivalent) mandates BS EN 61851 compliance it's only a matter of time before this becomes a legal requirement across the EU.
We have both models in use... most homes will have fixed cables and most commercial locations just sockets.
- - - Updated - - -
No, Type 2 supports 70kW DC without extra pins (see diagram above).�
Oct 3, 2012
Robert.Boston There are three "standards areas" currently: Europe (500 million, btw, not 700 million) (Type 2), the US/Canada (Type 1), and Japan (CHAdeMO). Tesla quite reasonably is not worried about meeting EU regulations in making it convenient for their North American customers to charge. The Model S port is compatible with SAE signalling standards, and use of an adapter is perfectly legal here.
The SC network is a North American announcement, not an EU announcement. What TM hasn't announced, and the one that I think you care about, Kevin, is how Tesla will set up the Model S for sale in the EU. We don't know the answer yet, so I don't think it's fair to go bashing Tesla about it yet.�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe Sorry but that's incorrect: Figures for the population of Europe vary according to which definition of European boundaries is used. The population within the standard physical geographical boundaries was 731 million in 2005 according to the United Nations
I think it's important to understand in the context of this discussion that Tesla could have (IMO should have) supported an existing charging connector standard and helped the deployment of EV's worldwide.�
Oct 3, 2012
dpeilow That's the population if you include European Russia, but for the purposes of this discussion we should probably define Europe as the countries that are members of CENELEC.
Nevertheless, the IEC 62196-1 standard includes North America by virtue of having Type 1 in the standard. In fact that's where the term Type 1 came from, as it was given that tag by the IEC to distinguish it from Types 2 and 3, the two alternate European plugs.
As far as I can see in the standard, the vehicle side adapter is not allowed and there are no country exceptions.�
Oct 3, 2012
TEG How about this: they keep the existing Tesla proprietary port on the left for single phase AC + Supercharging, and then provide a standard Mennekes port on the right tail-light flap for 3-phase AC charging?
Providing all forms of AC input seems prudent, but what about high current DC? If they only offer Supercharging, and deploy some European superchargers in key locations is that enough, or are people going to get up in arms if they don't offer "Frankenplug" Mennekes DC charging too?
How many DC chargers using Mennekes are already installed in Europe so far? More than CHAdeMO?�
Oct 3, 2012
dpeilow Agreed.
I'd want them to offer CHAdeMO, but I just don't believe they can safely and perhaps legally provide this on a pigtail adapter.
None. There are plenty of CHAdeMOs popping up though.�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe I think many people would happily accept multiple connectors... I never hear anyone complain about the Leaf in this regard.
I think it will be extremely difficult for Tesla to build a European wide proprietary DC network... they need CHAdeMO IMO and then whatever standard gains traction with the volume EV manufacturers.
lots of rumours about a mass produced car supporting Type 2 70kW DC but nothing concrete in the ground today.�
Oct 3, 2012
doug Practically speaking, that Mennekes Type-2 port would have to be used for single phase AC as well. Leaving the Model S (TSL02) connector only for Supercharging in that scenario.�
Oct 3, 2012
JRP3 Ridiculous. You want Tesla to support a lower powered connector, that does not exist in their home continent, where the majority of their early cars are going? There is no barrier for European customers since, if as you say an adapter is not allowed, Tesla will probably use the Mennekes connector. Or maybe they'll cover Europe with their own supercharger network.�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe In your dreams.... if Tesla try and go it alone in Europe with a proprietary standard they will fail.�
Oct 3, 2012
JRP3 Well they would have already failed using the non existent Mennekes in the US.�
Oct 3, 2012
stopcrazypp If they can cover the entire US with about 100 stations, I don't see why they can't do the same for a smaller geographic area (Europe). The biggest difficulty will be the red tape, not the actual tech or the cost.�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe We are a very long way from a US deployment that meets the needs of drivers... remember that Tesla had ambitions for a European wide HPC network and most of the locations that exist today are the result of owner effort not Tesla delivering on that ambition.
What you need to understand is that the proprietary route makes everything more difficult for people deploying infrastructure. While I might be able to persuade host sites to take CHAdeMO or Type 2 based on the number of cars on the road I doubt that will ever happen with the limited number of Tesla's on the road.�
Oct 3, 2012
dpeilow You guys have it easy compared to the multitude of organisations they'd have to deal with here. Honestly, it'll be red tape and then some.�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe yep, they have no idea :wink:�
Oct 3, 2012
stopcrazypp Well Tesla only sold less than 1000 roadsters in Europe and roughly twice that much in the US over a couple of years. There wasn't much ambition for a nationwide HPC network even in the US back then (probably because it's level 2 anyways).
This time Tesla is planning 20k Model S a year, and using the same ratio as the Roadster, there would be about 6-7k sales in Europe, annually bringing about $420mil-$490mil in revenue and $105-$123mil in margins (using a 25% margin). An investment of $20-30 million into infrastructure that can be used for many years and for many upcoming models makes sense.
BTW, on the whole discussion about the connector in Europe, if an adapter is not allowed, I suspect they will go with Mennekes-DC there (hopefully the spec is ready by the European launch!) and maybe like TEG's idea (having two ports). Tesla already said they would support three phase in Europe so the current US-spec Tesla port won't be the one on the European Model S anyways (again, unless they use two ports).�
Oct 3, 2012
dsm363 And if they do come up with a CHAdeMO adapter then they have their own network and the CHAdeMO network to fall back on.�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe yep and a 1000lb mega-$ CHAdeMO 'adapter' to lug around�
Oct 3, 2012
Doug_G IIRC the rule is that third-party adapters are not allowed, but it's okay if the vehicle manufacturer provides them.�
Oct 3, 2012
dsm363 Whatever adapter it is would easily fit in the extra space below the floor in the trunk. I would carry it around all the time if it were that useful to me. Don't know of a CHAdeMO charger within 200 miles of me though.�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe I hope you are right...
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Sorry that incorrect... NO adapters at the car end of the cable.... please read IEC 61851-1
|Here's an extract What charge port connector? - Page 48
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Yeh, very 21st Century... isn't this getting a little ridiculous? Just stick a CHAdeMO connector under the hood and everyone is happy�
Oct 3, 2012
dsm363 That's assuming CHAdeMO wins out in the US at least. Many other companies are backing the still not finalized J11772 version coming out. I don't mind using an adapter for the less than 1% of the time I'm charging and not using the Tesla Supercharging network. True 21st century I guess would be one connector to rule them all but I don't see everyone in the world coming around one standard, do you?�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe Assuming Nissan join their partners Renault and adopt Type 2 ("mennekes") across the range in Europe then I do think we have the beginnings of a standard that will be deployed in high volume. Given that most government financed infrastructure in Europe will also be Type 2 that only reinforces that connector.
I accept that some of the features of Type 2 are not useful to the consumer in the US (3 phase for example) but wish Tesla had adopted that connector rather than developing a proprietary solution. Type 2 can deliver everything that the Tesla connector can (and more).�
Oct 3, 2012
dsm363 If Tesla can use their plug design in the US and adapt a different version for Europe that meets the 3-phase need and simple connection to Type 2 that keeps everyone happy then that should work. I wouldn't mind a separate hidden charge port along the right side of the car for Type 2 doing away with the need for an adapter in Europe if that solved the problem.�
Oct 3, 2012
Robert.Boston To restate my earlier point, what Tesla has chosen to do in the North American market doesn't preclude it from adopting a Type 2 inlet in the EU. So, let's see what Tesla does. You make a strong case, Kevin, that Tesla would benefit from adopting Type 2 for its EU deliveries.�
Oct 3, 2012
vfx Elon has said they plan to cover the world.�
Oct 3, 2012
TEG When aliens land do they just go after one continent? :wink:�
Oct 3, 2012
jkirkebo This only works for Mennekes charging stations up to 22kW. Those just have a socket you can plug your own cable into. The 44kW charging stations does however come with cable & Mennekes plug already connected, since the separate cables stop at 32A.
And I do want 44kW Mennekes three-phase charging on my Model S (even if it tops out at 30kW, which I hope it doesn't). So the solution then is either a Mennekes socket on the car or an adapter.
And a CHAdeMO socket in the frunk is a good idea. I have at least 20 CHAdeMO stations within range of my Leaf, for the Model S next year there should be 50+. Since I'll never have to fast charge more than once a day, 44-50kW is good enough.�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe Sorry, that's incorrect... we have plenty of Charging Stations with 43kW sockets (I also have several 43kW cables).�
Oct 3, 2012
stopcrazypp I find Type 2 to be highly unlikely to be adopted in the US. From the Combined Charging System announcement, the "international" standard is to have J1772-DC in the North America and IEC 62196-3 (I'm referring to the Mennekes plug with the two extra DC pins) in Europe. The two standards are "harmonized" by having the port opening be the same size. There are absolutely no plans to use Type 2 in the US. It would require switching out the thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of J1772 stations already install to make such a port useful (and almost all of those stations don't have 3 phase in the first place).
Tesla couldn't have adopted IEC 62196-3 anyways since like J1772-DC, it's still in development (it's likely using the same PLC technology and the same signalling; looks like CHAdeMO and China is trying to get their own connector standards accepted into the proposal). IEC 62196-3 is scheduled for functional release in December 2013, so it looks like it may not be ready for use even when Tesla launches in Europe.
The regular Mennekes supports up to 70kW of DC charging (500VDC/140A), but in practical use, it's closer to 55-60kW given the lower charging voltages in batteries today (just like how CHAdeMO supports 62.5kW @ 500VDC/125A, but in practical use the limit is 50kW because the charging voltage of the Leaf and iMIEV is not that high). So like CHAdeMO, it has the same problem: not enough power.�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe Agreed but that's not the point... Tesla could have adopted the Type 2 connector rather than developing their proprietary solution... they would have required J1772 adaptors in the US but given that's allowed who cares.
So, they could have deployed proprietary signalling while they wait for (or influence) the standards.
Sorry I don't agree... we've run some serious current through Type 2 and I suspect it will support 70kW. You also have the option to support 140kW with extra pins.�
Oct 3, 2012
dpeilow Except
�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe So Tesla say "we love your connector but need the extra pins and heres' some $ because we don't want to reinvent the wheel"�
Oct 3, 2012
RDoc With all the US manufacturers supporting SAE, I think the SAE combo plug is likely to be the dominant player in the US if only for political reasons. Because of that, I expect a lot of government supported, and for profit, DC charging stations in the US will be both CHAdeMO and SAE in the near future with almost all the rest being J1772. For example, the California NRG DC stations will be converted to support SAE. www.cpuc.ca.gov
With the German manufacturers supporting SAE, it seem quite possible that it will be the adopted as the preferred standard in the EU as well.
At least in the US, I think the market for medium range (< 100 mi) cars is very limited, so am doubtful that the charging network, if built, will be optimized for them. The existing CHAdeMO chargers in the US are mostly medium power(30 kw). Even at the max CHAdeMO power (50 kw), these won't be very useful if the Tesla model of high kwh cars becomes more widespread. For plug in hybrids with short ranges, J1772 (6.5 - 16.8 kw) seems fine, but longer range cars really need rates in the 100 kw range for "fast" charging IMHO.
Existing CHAdeMO stations can service medium power charging, but not high power, whereas SAE can do both. Plus, a car with an SAE plug can use J1772 for top-ups as well.
Bottom line is my crystal ball says that if the market for all electric vehicles does develop, the standard will converge on SAE but the process won't be pretty.�
Oct 3, 2012
jkirkebo Ok, I had wrong info then. The single 44kW station we have here in Norway does however have a cable on it, and I read somewhere that they would all have that because the 3x63A cable was too heavy to lug around yourself.�
Oct 3, 2012
Norbert 70 kW is not enough for the Model S, and Tesla intends to go up to 120 kW, in the future, with the same connector (as it sounds).
With the extra DC pins, the Mennekes+DC is about the same size as the j1772+DC Frankenplug (according to drawings describing the combined format with J1772).
The Tesla connector is much smaller, surely lighter, with fewer flaps, and more convenient.
For Europe and 3-phase, Tesla still has all options open, and I'm simply confident they'll do what is best, as I think they've done the best for the US.
If they officially announce a Tesla Supercharger network in Europe, as they appear to intend, they'll probably do it only after already having built a few (and therefore knowing what it takes), as they did here in the US.
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How heavy then will be a 120 kW cable?�
Oct 3, 2012
dpeilow Well given that the SAE (J1772) is a subset of IEC, it's more like the other way around...
Here's the Mennekes franken-plug
�
Oct 3, 2012
Kevin Sharpe Renault and Nissan will disagree and will undoubtedly have large volumes of cars on the road so I don't think the German influence is clear cut.
Don't forget that CHAdeMO supports 100kW with proposals to scale to 200kW... Tesla are not the first to implement high power DC.
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They are heavy and I don't intend to lug one around :smile:�
Oct 3, 2012
RDoc I was talking about the SAE combo plug that has already been agreed to by the German manufacturers, or do you mean something else?�
Oct 3, 2012
dsm363 Did all these companies adopt the SAE combo plug for the US only?
U.S., German automakers will demo fast-charging system at EVS26�
Oct 3, 2012
RDoc Not that I'm aware of, do you have any reason to think they might do something like that?
AFAIK, SAE combo is what they'll be putting on their cars that support DC charging. At least in the next few years, I expect the main market for BEV's will be in the EU, so that probably will drive what they use.�
Oct 3, 2012
dsm363 In the article, they say
so I'm trying to figure out if this is the same standard the SAE is working on. I think it is.
This says they play to support it in the US and Europe. Looks like Mercedes didn't join them.
Global Automakers to Demo EV Fast Charging at EVS26�
Oct 3, 2012
dpeilow It's called the IEC 62196 combined charging system. In North America it has the type 1 AC pins and in Europe the type 2 AC pins.
IEC 62196 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
SAE is just a proxy for this in the US.�
Oct 3, 2012
stopcrazypp Except Type 2 doesn't have enough power (even assuming 70kW). So it doesn't accomplish their goal for supercharging, even though it's a better option than CHAdeMO.
They could have done the same with J1772-DC, but they didn't, likely because they (or specifically Elon) think that the connector is clunky. If Tesla had planned to adopt a standard that wasn't ready, they would likely have picked J1772-DC instead as that is going to be the "official" standard in the US (plus there is no need for a J1772 adapter).
The spec itself says 500VDC and 140A. The limiting factor is the current (this has proven to be the case for CHAdeMO with 500VDC and 125A limit). I doubt any charger will allow more current than the connector is rated for, as that is a huge safety issue (overheating the connector/cable and possibly starting a fire). Like TEG pointed out in another thread, nominal voltage of the Leaf is ~350V, charging voltage is probably about 400V, 400V*125A = 50kW practical limit. The Model S pack has a bit higher nominal voltage (~380V from a diagnostic screen shot I saw), so let's say the charging voltage is 430V. 430V*140A = 60kW for a Model S charging via Type 2 connector.
Again, the proposal with extra pins is not ready yet (much like J1772-DC).�
Oct 3, 2012
doug I think that's just how the Europeans choose to label it. I wouldn't call the SAE plug as proxy. As far as I can tell the protocols were developed by SAE and IEEE, which the IEC chose to adopt. Of course the IEC has their own way of labeling things.
Took forever for Europe to actually agree on the German Mennekes Type-2 while the French and Italians held out on Type-3. (Have the finally actually agreed??) And it seems the UK has plenty of Japanese Type-1 (which is what the Europeans call the SAE/Yazaki developed J1772 connector).�
Oct 3, 2012
Norbert In theory, on paper (perhaps prototypes).
Tesla is the first to implement working high power DC with production cars that can use it. (Except maybe some airport support vehicles and such).�
Oct 3, 2012
stopcrazypp This should be a sticky somewhere. I think most people find it confusing that the system is called the "Combined Charging System" when in fact it encompasses two different connectors.
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There's no CHAdeMO charger in existence that exceeds 60kW:
http://www.chademo.com/02_CHAdeMO_Chargers.html
The vehicle inlet is only certified to 120A:
http://charge.yazaki-group.com/english/product/quick_inlet.html
The highest rated connector is certified to 150A (for the Japanese version):
http://charge.yazaki-group.com/english/product/quick_outlet_jp.html
The newest "next gen" version is limited to 125A:
http://charge.yazaki-group.com/english/product/quick_outlet_neo.html
You need at least 200A to push 90kW (assuming a high 450VDC charging voltage, you need even more than 200A if your charging voltage is lower).�
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