Feb 22, 2013
mrjohnlnguyen http://www.forbes.com/sites/pikeresearch/2013/02/15/automakers-straddle-the-ev-charging-chasm/
Looks like we will be getting an adapter in the near future.�
Feb 22, 2013
araxara They also say "Tesla, which uses its own proprietary �Supercharger� technology for fast direct-current (DC) charging, has also produced an adapter to go with the SAE�s enhanced J1772 specification." I would assume the "enhanced J1772 specification" is the frankenplug. I've been seeing dual CHAdeMo/SAE J1772 DC charging stations popping up.�
Feb 22, 2013
mrjohnlnguyen Where?�
Feb 22, 2013
RDoc Very good news on the SAE Combo adapter, I'm hoping that will replace the existing J1772 adapter that comes standard with the Tesla.�
Feb 22, 2013
araxara I'm assuming you're asking about the Dual chargers. Here is a picture of one in Picacho, AZ:
Opening ceremony pictures�
Feb 22, 2013
allanb4me oO i can see the naval
�
Feb 22, 2013
AnOutsider Well, the good news is that Tesla seems to keep up and provide adapters. I wonder if in 5 years or so, they'll cave in and put those connectors on all their cars? On a selfish level, I hope not. I prefer Tesla's sleek solution, and carrying around adapters really isn't all that inconvenient to me.�
Feb 22, 2013
gregincal It depends on what you mean by the near future. Japanese delivery isn't until the end of the year, and who know when they might be available in the US (Tesla hasn't even committed to making the available in the US). I wouldn't be surprised if we get a combo J1772 first.�
Feb 22, 2013
SByer I'd much rather have chademo through an adapter, as the standard signals on the CANbus, and knowing an adapter is in there providing a firewall for potential viruses is a happy thought. I shudder at the thought of chademo native car letting the charging station talk directly on it's own bus without a firewall. Ugh.�
Feb 22, 2013
jkirkebo The Leaf has a separate CAN-bus for quick charging. No need to grant access to the main bus.�
Feb 26, 2013
Beavis Northern Colorado is installing 4-6 of the Eaton fast chargers in a few locations. It's part of the Electrification Coalition.�
Feb 26, 2013
Zextraterrestrial I just received an e-mail response today saying no update on when the CHAdeMO adapters will be available.
I want to go to Oregon(quickliy) :crying:
and not just the southern Coast, which is pretty�
Feb 26, 2013
stopcrazypp Nice that it's popping up in AZ too. In CA, the CARB has a mandate for dual plug stations and we should see at least 200 of them installed by eVgo.�
Feb 27, 2013
Kevin Sharpe funny to see FUD used against a charging technology in a BEV forum :smile:
- - - Updated - - -
I hope so... IMO it's silly to put any barriers in the way of a BEV that needs a charge.�
Feb 27, 2013
RandyS My understanding from working with them is that they will install one Chademo DC FC initially at the California Freedom Stations, and then when the agreement clause kicks in about two vendors offering combo plug chargers, then they'll add one of those to the pre-plumbed connection at each Freedom Station. They're not planning on doing dual plug stations...�
Feb 28, 2013
Robert.Boston Here's the exact wording from the filed Settlement Agreement:
�
Feb 28, 2013
jkirkebo Sounds like the first will be CHAdeMO and the second can be either SAE or dual CHAdeMO&SAE. If the CHAdeMO station is heavily utilized, the second choice makes more sense IMHO.�
Apr 14, 2013
Laurent I was on Maui last week and I saw some CHAdeMo chargers at the Maui Tropical Plantation.
�
Apr 14, 2013
TurboFroggy Hopefully when they get those commissioned that they install proper signage and paint the parking spaces green to prevent ICEing. The second picture shows that this will certainly happen. The Volt only has a J1772, the Polaris and the Exploder are both gassers.�
Apr 15, 2013
Vander There are already LOTS of CHAdeMO chargers about every 40 miles on many of the highways here in WA as well as OR as a part of the "green highway" and I am told in much of Europe and Asia as well. They are in public lots by burger stations, etc, and available 24/7. Being able to access them, instead of just the slow speed adapters included with my car would make trips to the airport / city, etc infinitely more convenient. In speaking with Tesla customer support last week, I was told that "there are no current plans to create a CHAdeMO adapter for the S" in spite of the enormous benefit that it would provide for people like me that have a CHAdeMO infrustructure already in place. He took my VIN # and submitted a request in to his superiors to consider it's development. He told me that the more people that placed such a request, the more influence it would have on Tesla. If you are reading this thread and want Tesla to create a high speed (ChAdeMO) adapter, please call customer service (877-798-3752) and request that they prioritize it. Better yet, if you have any influence (?tweet-o-sphere; publishing, etc) do whatever you think might help this effort along.�
Apr 16, 2013
jerry33 Whomever told you that got it wrong because Tesla is supplying ChaDeMo adapters in Japan.�
Apr 16, 2013
Bipo Nice! Four QC in a row is far from usual!!
Only one thing... Green button to stop?? Those japanese engineers... It should be red, shouldn't it? If red is reserved for the emergency button, then it should be yellow, blue, brown... Whatever, but not green! Maybe the designer was daltonic :biggrin: (Just joking�
Apr 16, 2013
Vander Clarification
I mis-spoke. I was told that "there are no plans to supply CHAdeMO adapters in the US". I know about the article stating that the cars sold in Japan will be CHAdeMO compliant. Unfortunately, that will not help us if they have a different build-out on their Japanese vehicles. Again... it is incumbent on us to make our needs known if we want Tesla to create a CHAdeMO adapter that will work with the cars in the US rather than focusing exclusively on their supercharging system which even when created will not be as well dispersed or convenient as the infrastructure already present with CHAdeMO.�
Apr 17, 2013
jerry33 Neither one are anywhere near where I live or, more importantly, frequently travel to so I don't really have a dog in this fight.�
Apr 17, 2013
Vander I see that you live in Texas though I am not sure where you are in the state. There are a bunch of CHAdeMO adapters in the Dallas and Houston areas, so if you ever go to either of those areas, you may have a dog in the fight.�
Apr 17, 2013
ChadS It's true that people that don't have CHAdeMO chargers near them - and that's a lot of people - don't get a direct benefit from Tesla offering an adapter.
However, if CHAdeMO stations get installed in your area in the future, you will likely want to have an adapter available. Even if that never happens, if you want Tesla owners in areas that do have CHAdeMO chargers to have a good ownership experience, get the most out of their cars, tell their friends about it, and help sell new drivers that are skeptical of the technology - well, the benefits aren't direct, but I think any Tesla owner, stock holder, or for that matter anybody that wants to see EVs take off has an indirect stake in whether or not Tesla drivers, even non-local ones, can use existing infrastructure.
Getting a CHAdeMO charging network up here was a very long and hard-fought battle. It is serving its purpose - Leaf drivers are getting around a lot more, and more importantly gas drivers are hearing about it and get excited about the possibilities. You can't understand how important DC charging is to potential owners until you see their faces when you explain that the Model S can't use that infrastructure - they thought they could make an EV work, and I just destroyed their dreams. Or when you see the blank looks I get when I explain that I am still driving to California using L2 charging. My friends all love my Teslas, but almost none of them are buying because - where can you charge on a trip? L2 is not sufficient. Tesla may not need more orders yet; but they will some day and the inability to use existing infrastructure is definitely holding them (and the whole industry) back.
This will be true even once the Superchargers are in - CHAdeMO stations are in all sorts of places that Superchargers will never cover. Even though DC chargers are used very infrequently and most buyers have another car in the family, most people still don't want to commit to buying an expensive new car until they know they have options for getting around in it. The importance of being able to use these things goes way beyond how often they actually are used.�
Apr 17, 2013
Al Sherman Absolutely. In many cases (mine for sure) it's not about the chargers within a 265 mile round trip from my garage. It's about the one down the road that may make or break my decision to take the Model S. I would like to have a CHAdeMO adapter. I will buy one as soon as Tesla makes it available.�
Apr 17, 2013
dsm363 I'd wait until there was an actual CHAdeMO charger for you to use before buying the adapter. That way the people who need them in the pacific NW and other places can get it first.�
Apr 17, 2013
Vander Absolutely. I could not agree more with every statement you made. Is there something that we can do to pressure Tesla to create a CHAdeMO adapter to fit the cars it has already produced? I wonder if some after market manufacturer (the CHAdeMO station manufacturers?) might be able to get the rights from Tesla and make them available.�
Apr 18, 2013
deonb I would imagine that a U.S. CHAdeMO adapter isn't in Tesla's best interest. There are only 160 CHAdeMO chargers (not locations - units) in the U.S. right now, most of them in locations that aren't really interesting (like highway rest stops).
If Tesla embraces CHAdeMO it would establish a feedback loop in the market: Tesla support would dramatically accelerate the rollout of CHAdeMO. And if CHAdeMO becomes commonplace, nobody would buy a car without CHAdeMO support (like in Japan).
The last thing Tesla wants is for a CHAdeMO to become a ubiquitous de-facto standard, since they mostly benefit PHEV's and low-range EV's, but the experience sucks for Tesla owners.
A better strategy would be to rapidly ramp up SC rollout, especially among regions where CHAdeMO is common. You can cover over 50% of CHAdeMO's in the U.S. using just 10 SC locations (the West Coast Green Highway). This would allow Tesla to retain its edge as the only practical long-range EV. It would also put Tesla in a better bargaining position to control the standard, rather than having to adopt to a worse standard that cripple the experience.
A few more sales now would be nice, but long-term control over the standard is gold.
(Speaking as a shareholder that's also personally stranded on the West Coast Green Highway.)�
Apr 18, 2013
Al Sherman Correct as usual Dave. Thanks. When the time comes I WILL wait until they are readily available.�
Apr 18, 2013
KenEE There are 20 CHAdeMO stations within 100 miles of Dallas and almost as many in the Houston area. That's just the eVgo network.�
Apr 18, 2013
ChadS Hi Deon,
It is true that there aren't thousands of CHAdeMO chargers yet, but it's important to note that the existing CHAdeMO chargers are strategically placed near large metro areas that have high EV adoption rates, so they affect a lot of potential buyers. It is still important for the people that are near them to be able to use them, especially given that there may already be more locations available than Tesla will offer in the next several years. Note that Nissan has finally gotten the message and is starting to put in quite a few on their own dime, rather than waiting for the government to put them in.
Having seen (and created) maps of where CHAdeMO chargers are, I wouldn't say that most of them are in uninteresting locations. However, even if I was to grant that they are, the ability to use 50kW charging in an uninteresting place versus 6 - 14kW chargers still affects both buying decisions for potential owners and trips taken (and vehicle satisfaction) for current owners. If Tesla offers an adapter in the US, people that are unimpressed with CHAdeMO locations are still free to use the L2 stations if they really prefer that.
I agree that using a CHAdeMO charger is not as good as using a Supercharger, and that Tesla owners will prefer the Supercharger when they can use it. But offering an adapter does not push a bad experience on anybody, and it's not an either/or situation. CHAdeMO stations are already in many places that Superchargers will never be. Tesla owners that don't want to travel to those places don't have to, but it is a huge win when potential and current owners know they can travel more places. Tesla is already building a CHAdeMO adapter; so developing it is not going to take anything away from Superchargers. They are already in the business of selling charging adapters; so while they have to create a new SKU and do some extra work to sell it in the US, it is several orders of magnitude less money and time than what would be required to put in Superchargers everywhere that CHAdeMO stations are.
Tesla does not have control of a standard, and hasn't shown great interest in doing so - they seem more like Apple, just offering something proprietary that works well for them. Right now, nobody else is interested in Superchargers because their cars can't use it, and they don't want to help Tesla establish and have control of a standard - in fact, many of them are pleased that there isn't a standard. I agree that CHAdeMO-equipped cars selling well and more CHAdeMO stations being built could be an issue if this was an established market and Tesla was trying to steal market share. But in a fragile developing market where Tesla can't begin to build enough cars to meet their goals, most consumers think negatively of the cars and most other automakers want to stop making the cars altogether, the best thing to ensure the future of all plug-in cars is that the manufacturers making them sell as many as they can make, and that they can all use all of the existing infrastructure. Many manufacturers that are only building compliance cars are not allowing their customers to use existing infrastructure; the ones that do allow it will sell more cars.
Superchargers will always be a perk for Tesla owners even if they have the option of using other chargers. This will push consumers to buy Teslas if they can, and for other manufacturers to think about switching from CHAdeMO to Superchargers when they build cars with battery packs big enough to handle it (though they will probably still fight Superchargers to hurt Tesla, just like they fight CHAdeMO now to hurt Nissan).�
Apr 18, 2013
KenEE ChadS is right. We need access to all these CHAdeMO chargers in metro areas.
Even when Tesla installs a SuperCharger between here and Dallas, I'll need the CHAdeMO's in Dallas as well. The SC will only help me get there from Houston. Once I get there on a low battery I will need a CHAdeMO adapter to get some miles to drive in Dallas.�
Apr 18, 2013
Vander �
Apr 18, 2013
highfalutintodd On Monday, I made a very rare road trip from Nashville to Chattanooga and back. 150 miles each way, and I was there for a grand total of about three hours.
I don't take delivery of my Model S for a few more weeks so I was in my Honda, but I found myself both wishing desperately that I was making the drive in my new car.... And also wondering how in the hell I could have done it. 300 miles round trip is beyond the range of my 85, and there were no chargers at my meeting location.
HOWEVER, I did pass THREE Cracker Barrels on I24 along the way that each had Blink CHAdeMO stations. I even stopped to look at one while taking a pit stop. Being able to use one of these would have easily enabled me to make the trip in my Tesla. Especially since I can't imagine that Tesla is planning on giving the Tennessee area any supercharger love anytime soon.�
Apr 18, 2013
jomo25 I can't say if the total number is right or not. But I can say there are 24 units installed in the metro PHX area. And they aren't at highway rest stops. Some are at usable locations like malls.�
Apr 18, 2013
SuperCoug Exceptionally well stated Chad. The fact that there are already well over 100 CHAdeMO chargers installed (largely in OR and WA) is already reason enough to release the adapter to the US market. It is important to note that these CHAdeMO chargers are not being paid for by Tesla so releasing an adapter allows your customers to benefit from chargers being funded typically by local, State, and Federal programs. Whereas I think that the Tesla Supercharger network is being entirely funded by Tesla which makes it much more difficult to install hundreds of them overnight.
I really like that Tesla seems to have an "all of the above" strategy when it comes to charging. I really like that there are lots of adapters available and that allow me to tap into whatever voltage/amperage that I'm likely to encounter. Selling a CHAdeMO adapter would be very much in this same spirit.�
Apr 18, 2013
jomo25 Actually, I call it an "all of the above" strategy to address every conceivable barrier people perceive regarding EVs. Range anxiety, sportiness, long distance travel, luxury, etc.
So, why they wouldn't want to TAKE ADVANTAGE of an existing, and growing infrastructure that essentially costs them nothing and only OPENS up the capabilities for their customers (and potential customers) would be completely beyond me.�
Jul 12, 2013
wycolo Chademo charger, along with a Chargepoint j1772, newly installed at the Ft Collins, CO museum 150 miles away from here. Ideal for my needs. :biggrin:
I___want___adapter___now, for Tesla R & S ! !
Is the Chademo free, as someone implied? Only the Chargepoint next to it has the credit card thingy. Does the Chargepoint control the Chademo? I've never seen either of these before.
--�
Jul 12, 2013
jcstp In europe the chademo-adapter should arrive at the end of the year
Dropbox - EU_CHARGING_EN_MAY13.pdf�
Jul 12, 2013
EVNow CHAdeMO QC (just like the L2) depends on who owns it. They decide how much it costs - and whether the cost is by the hour or per session etc.�
Jul 12, 2013
stopcrazypp Ecotality/Blink is trying out a $5 ($8 for "guests") flat fee in California. They might change it based on the negative feedback, but it's clear those chargers will be changed to paid in the near future.
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/07/12/blink-tries-out-5-dc-fast-charge-flat-fee-for-evs-folks-not-ha/�
Jul 12, 2013
metafor Hmmm, none in the US...�
Jul 12, 2013
PhilBa Hmm, if there was a Tesla adapter, $5 would be a good deal, assuming you are recharging from about 50%. A Leaf with a fairly depleted battery (say needs 20KWh charge) would be paying $.25 per kwh at 100% efficiency. Probably more like $.21 when you factor 15% inefficiency. I think that's fairly reasonable, especially considering the relatively high electricity rates in California.�
Jul 14, 2013
Skotty I don't see a U.S. CHAdeMO adapter as being high priority. They are only deployed in a few places around the country and there is no coherent plan for further roll out.
Tesla has plans to roll out Superchargers across the entire U.S. It is one of the huge selling points for Tesla's over other EVs. It is short sighted to only install chargers where EV adoption is high, as this leads to the chicken and the egg problem. EV adoption is low in some places likely because there is no charging infrastructure in those places. It is very smart of Tesla to have a plan that covers almost all of the U.S.
That said, there is no drawback for the consumer to have an additional adapter option. I would guess Tesla will eventually get around to making one, but it's probably more complicated than other adapters and Tesla probably has higher priorities at the moment. If CHAdeMO gets more heavily deployed, the priority of making an adapter for it will go up.�
Jul 14, 2013
deonb Woo-hooo!!! These are sweet words:
"A CHAdeMO adapter will be available later this year for use with CHAdeMO public charging stations"
This means European and Japanese cars (at least) will have an actual CHAdeMO adapter - it isn't a port that's built into the car. That means that once it's in Europe, it can be used in the U.S. as well.
Anyway, after the TesLive presentations it now seems obvious that Tesla will be releasing it in the U.S at the same time.�
Jul 14, 2013
dhrivnak Are you serious CHAdeMO outnumbers super charger 10-1 now in the USA. Tennessee for example has 14 public CHAdeMO stations along major interstates and NO plans for any superchargers until 2015. Look at Plug-Share for more data.
Now I agree Tesla's supercharger is superior but a CHAdeMO at 40 kw beats a public J-1772 at 6kw any day.�
Jul 14, 2013
TurboFroggy Whoohoo!!! There are a LOT of Chademo stations in Washington and Oregon, I would buy this adapter in a heartbeat. Nothing is more frustrating than charging at 7KW while a Leaf charges right next to you at 50KW.�
Jul 14, 2013
deonb Yes, there is...
Leaf plugged into the only J1772 in the area with an empty CHAdeMO bay right next to it.
(Leavenworth 2 weeks ago).�
Jul 14, 2013
stopcrazypp Not necessarily. The European Model S clearly uses a different port (see the pdf document), so a CHAdeMO adapter made for the European market will not work in the US. European deliveries should start this month.
A Japanese market one should work, but no written confirmation when it will come. Japanese (and Hong Kong) deliveries should start near the end of the year. They have to engineer the LHD version first, which will take longer.
- - - Updated - - -
I think what he means is there are zero CHAdeMO chargers anywhere near him (Kansas City). In fact, the closest DC chargers to him right now is the supercharger station in Normal, IL!
Plus there's plans for superchargers along I-70 on both the Kansas and Missouri side near Kansas City in the 2014-2015 time frame. No such plans for CHAdeMO chargers yet.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=http:%2F%2Fwww.chademo.com%2Fkml%2FCHAdeMO_map_in_130704.kml
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
The only chance of places outside of Leaf-heavy areas of getting a CHAdeMO charger is if a nearby Nissan dealer installs one. But that does not necessarily give non-Nissan and non-customers of that dealer access to it.�
Jul 14, 2013
TurboFroggy Ug that would suck. I would check to see if the Leaf had any contact info left on the dash, that is the polite thing to do, the called them and ask them to move to the Chademo. If no contact info, and the Chademo would have reached, I would have used my fob to activate the Chademo and moved them to that to finish them up.�
Jul 14, 2013
stopcrazypp You are assuming the Leaf had a CHAdeMO outlet and the DC charging option (which it might not have had). There's a good chance it didn't have that option.�
Jul 14, 2013
TurboFroggy Well I would estimate that 3/4 of the Leafs I have ever seen have a Chademo port on them. A Leaf without a Chademo port cannot make it to Leavenworth without fast charging. Chances of a local in Leavenworth, who would need a charge would be rare, Leavenworth just isn't that big distance wise for a local.
My guess is they charged to 80% on the Chademo, them moved to the L2 to finish up. The Leaf charges just as fast on L2 as Chademo when you get past about 85% SOC. The Leaf person was more than likely just trying to be courteous to other Leaf drivers who might be wanting to fast charge on their way though town.
80% to 100% on a Leaf, even a 2011/2012 with a 3.3KW onboard charger is about 90 minutes, about 45 minutes on a 2013 with a 6.6KW charger.
Look at the 3 blue lights on the dash of the Leaf, if they are solid on or off, it is done charging. If they are flashing still, it is still charging. Off or solid 3, go ahead and unplug it, fob the station and plug yourself in, they are done.�
Jul 15, 2013
Skotty Thanks for the CHAdeMO map link. I was actually looking at an older CHAdeMO map (I was originally looking at this one, but it's very outdated now: Quick Charger location map CHAdeMO - Google Maps). I can see from the newer map that there has been a lot of expansion in Washington and Oregon. That's great.
@dhrivnak -- But, it's still somewhat limited in it's usefulness to a Tesla owner. A Tesla has a long enough range that there is really no significant need for fast chargers around the town you live in; you can just charge at home. It would only really be useful for trips. And a lot of the CHAdeMO deployments so far are not really set up for highway travel, but clustered around metro areas (Washington/Oregon and a Tennessee triangle being the exceptions to that).
I will be getting a Tesla. How useful would a CHAdeMO adapter be for me? I live in Kansas City. As stopcrazypp pointed out, it's a loooong long way to the nearest CHAdeMO charger. I need to be able to travel along I-70, from Denver to St. Louis. When will there be CHAdeMO chargers along that route? There are not even any showing along the east coast yet. When they do come to my area, they might just be clustered around Denver, Kansas City and St. Louis, which would still be mostly useless to me.
Again, I'm not suggesting they shouldn't make a CHAdeMO adapter. I hope they do. And I hope that someday CHAdeMO stations will be located in places that are useful to me. But it's hard to say when, if ever, that will be. I think that's the problem. Tesla has priorities, and a CHAdeMO adapter in the U.S. is not going to be a high priority until CHAdeMO gets rolled out more, or at least has solid plans to. Drop a bucket load of CHAdeMO chargers along the east coast and I think then you will see a Tesla CHAdeMO charge adapter come out.�
Jul 17, 2013
Rowlock Erm, guys? Take a look at that PDF. Notice particularly the photos of the European car's charging port.
Any adapter produced for the Euro cars looks like it absolutely will NOT work with US autos. It's a completely different plug on the car.
It might be possible to just use the same circuitry to create a US CHAdeMO adapter with the connector that we're all familiar with, then again it might not. Depends what all those extra pins are for. The Euro cars might have other conductors or circuitry that enables CHAdeMO compatibility, but which is not included in the US connectors.
I sure hope it's an easy conversion, and that there will be a US adapter. I have several CHAdeMO stations near me that I'd love to use. But that picture really makes me wonder how simple the conversion might be.
Thanks for the link, JCSTP.�
Jul 17, 2013
bollar My take from watching Jerome Guillen at TESLIVE is that there will eventually be a Chademo adapter in the US. He said he couldn't say, but... If you watch the video, I think you'll agree it's on Tesla's list.�
Jul 18, 2013
hiroshiy Japan is your friend�
Jul 18, 2013
DFibRL8R Those CHAdeMO google maps don't show any East coast chargers when in fact there are several installed and many in the works (Pennsylvania State plan)
PA Turnpike finally getting chargers
If you check out plugshare, there are 3 CHAdeMO's in the Washigton, DC area (EV GO), 1 in southern NJ, 2 in NYC area, and 1 in Florida. The CHAdeMO chargers are becoming more nation-wide and less of a West Coast phenomenon and Tesla needs to develop an option for Model S owners to take advantage of these IMO.�
Jul 18, 2013
NigelM Saw the European Model S charge port at the factory last week (no pics allowed); we were told that the primary reason for the difference is to facilitate 3-phase charging.�
Jul 18, 2013
VolkerP I think Rowlock's point is that a CHAdeMO adapter for EU Model S will not fit into an US Model charge port - obviously!
Clearly for this CHAdeMO adapter to fit the US charge port, a redesign would be necessary with unknown scope (mechanical, electric, protocol). We don't know if the EU Model S contains changes to facilitate a future CHAdeMO adapter that the US model doesn't have.�
Jul 18, 2013
AmpedRealtor The bigger question to me is this: How could Tesla not plan for CHAdeMO functionality in US vehicles when CHAdeMO DC chargers are popping up everywhere. Other US manufacturers are embracing CHAdeMO for DC charging and Tesla should be embarrassed for not offering an adapter for every charge point. The fact that a Nissan Leaf can get a super fast DC charge while the Model S owner has to use the much slower Level 2 charger next door is an insult.�
Jul 18, 2013
EVNow Who ?�
Jul 18, 2013
RDoc I don't think there are any US manufacturers using CHAdeMO. Which one are you thinking of?�
Jul 18, 2013
NigelM Mod Note: There's already a ~320 post discussion on ChAdeMO (particularly in North America) over here....CHAdeMO-adapter-frustration�
Jul 18, 2013
brianman Agreed.�
Jul 18, 2013
metafor While not exactly a U.S. company, I think Leafs are manufacturered in the U.S.
Regardless, a quick look at plugshare would indicate that the vast (if not only) source of fast DC charging outside of superchargers are CHAdeMO. I'd love to be able to utilize those in cases where a supercharger isn't available.�
Jul 18, 2013
100thMonkey repeating a bit here but since there are several CHAdeMO threads it seems valuable. at the Burlington ribbon cutting today a Tesla engineer affirmed with certainty that a CHAdeMO adapter was coming to the US later this year with the roll out in Japan, that it will have a different plug than the Japan model, since japan's S will have the European plug. I was encouraged, I wouldn't hold your breath on the timing but I'm happy to know that Tesla understands there is significant demand here in the US.�
Jul 18, 2013
AmpedRealtor I meant to write other manufacturers, not necessarily just US manufacturers. Nissan Leaf has a CHAdeMO and can use fast DC charging with much faster rate of charge than the Level 2 available to Model S. Something is wrong if a Leaf can charge at a faster rate than a Model S which costs three times as much. They've announced adapters for Japan and Europe because those use the same connection on the car, but the US car plug is different. I suspect the problem is more complex and may require a vehicle retrofit. I'm just saying, the ports on the European and Japanese cars have a few more pins, presumably for communications of some sort. These pins are missing on the US Model S, which may more to do with this issue than anything else.�
Jul 18, 2013
stopcrazypp That's news to me. Japan is J1772 territory (which the US port handles fine with the adapter), not Mennekes so why would it use a European plug? Are there even any Mennekes stations in Japan?�
Jul 18, 2013
EVNow It is certainly weird if Tesla doesn't make a CHAdeMO adapter. We are talking about "free" infrastructure upgrade.�
Jul 18, 2013
stopcrazypp It's not really free. It'll cost Tesla in R&D costs and obviously it'll cost the customer. I assumed if they are going to make one for Japan anyways (and that the US and Japanese Model S uses the same port), it would make sense to offer it here too. But people are saying the Japanese Model S will share a port with the European version, which would make the US version the outlier and complicate things.�
Jul 19, 2013
rlang59 They could be going with the Euro plug because of the CHAdeMo adapter.�
Jul 19, 2013
hiroshiy I believe Japanese cars will have U.S. style vehicle connectors; we have J1772 L2 charge stations as well as 1700+ CHAdeMO stations nationwide. I'll confirm with them...�
Jul 19, 2013
gregincal Having the european plug means having the european 3 phase charger, which wouldn't make any sense for Japan. The 3 phase charger limits one phase charging to 7.5kW instead of 10kW for the north american charger (3 phase charging is at 11kW). It only makes sense if the majority of the charging is 3 phase, which isn't the case in Japan.�
Jul 19, 2013
jkirkebo Where do you have this info from? As far as we know, EU cars can charge 40A/80A on single phase just like the US cars. You'll need the HPWC for 40A and up though as the UMC is limited to 32A.�
Jul 19, 2013
ZBB He's probably referring to UMC charging. The US UMC can go to 40A / 10kW...
I've lived in the US, Japan and Europe -- and the Japan grid is more similar to the US (110V is the "standard" household voltage), so I would guess the Japan-spec S will get the US style connector...�
Jul 19, 2013
jkirkebo Maybe. Or a third variant, EU-style plug with US-style single phase UMC.�
Jul 19, 2013
gregincal As far as I know, this is the most accurate information about european charging. The doc shows Type 2 charging stations using single phase-single charger will also be limited to 32A, so I'm assuming that not only is the UMC limited to 32A, but that the limit is 32A per charger. Is there any info that shows otherwise?
European-Charging-Info
Reading through the doc I see nothing that really confirms or denies this. Type 2 connectors are limited to 32A and the UMC is limited to 32A. The HPWC spec is TBD. I haven't read all the europe threads in detail. Has anybody from Tesla indicated that the European charger is capable of handling more than 32A? If it is, then why is the UMC limited to 32A?�
Jul 19, 2013
VolkerP The EU Model S is capable of digesting 40A/240V single phase (single charger), or 80A/240V (twin charger). Source: danish model s feature page.
I don't know a way to feed 40A or 80A single phase from existing outlets to the type 2 charging port of the EU Model S. Perhaps the EU HPWC can do that. The EU UMC cannot.
Some Type 2 charging stations provide 3x63A. They have the cable attached to the EVSE. You're still right that the UMC is limited to 32A but you wouldn't need it here.
It's all grey theory. If you want high power AC charging, you must go 3 phase over here.
On the subject of CHAdeMO I want to add, there is hope that DC-mid charging (up to 70kW) will be possible some day with a supercharger-equipped EU Model S, using the Type 2 port without any adapter. Fast charging stations could easily add a DC-mid cable head, and save us the cost and hassle of a CHAdeMO adapter.
�
Jul 19, 2013
gregincal OK, thanks for the info. Anyway, the bottom line is that it makes no sense for Japan to use the type 2 connector, since they have roughly the same electrical standards as North America.�
Jul 19, 2013
EVNow The R&D effort is small compared to the effort to place 100s of QC on the ground - esp. in the dense urban environment.�
Jul 19, 2013
Rowlock That was my point exactly, yes.
That's a good sign. Definitely got my fingers crossed here, anyway.
Ah, extra conductors for the additional phases would make sense. Thanks for the info. Hopefully that will mean a straight plug conversion might be possible, or at least more feasible.�
Jul 19, 2013
jkirkebo As far as I know the US connector doesn't have any advantage whatsoever over the EU connector except size. The EU connector can do 32A three-phase, 80A single phase and SuperCharging.
My guess is that if the EU version had been developed first the EU connector would be used in the US too. Then you would be able to charge from commercial three-phase power.�
Jul 20, 2013
widodh Indeed, electrically the connectors are the same, it's just the two extra pins for phase two and three.�
Jul 20, 2013
arg We don't yet know what sort of compromise has been needed to get Supercharging in there. If it is just a standard type2 connector, then the max Supercharging rate would be significantly less than the US cars (about 50kW). Probably they've enhanced the standard connector in some way, but it may still fall short of what the US connector can do.�
Jul 20, 2013
AmpedRealtor How can a connector with more pins than the US connector fall short of what the US connector can do? I don't understand this. A connector with more pins than the US connector should be able to do at least what the US connector can do, and likely more.�
Jul 20, 2013
markb1 The pins in a standard Mennekes connector aren't rated for the current necessary for supercharging.�
Jul 20, 2013
brianman More-count isn't the same as more-volume.
Or put another way, 72 pennies < 3 quarters.�
Jul 20, 2013
dpeilow The EU Model S connector clearly looks like an enhanced, deeper (for more contact area) version of the "Mennekes" Type 2.�
Jul 20, 2013
stopcrazypp You have to look at the current carrying capabilities and the size of the pins (mainly for supercharging). And in the US, NEC does not allow you to spread current over multiple pins (like DC-mid does for the European plug)
- - - Updated - - -
The way Tesla would look at it is how many sales they would lose if they didn't offer the adapter. If that amount is low then they don't need to spend money on it. The amount of QC is irrelevant because it depends on if potential customers think they need to use it (if they have no experience with a EV previously they probably won't).
In Japan and probably Norway, where their entire country is already covered (and superchargers yet), it may be a deal breaker, but in the US probably not.�
Jul 21, 2013
100thMonkey I don't think that is correct. in the US, there are already pockets with considerable coverage. with a CHAdeMO adapter, you can drive practically anywhere in OR, they are ever 25 miles along I-5 for a good stretch, they go out to the coast as well. In WA they are every 40 miles or so along I-5 from border to border and along rt 2 all the way out to Wenatchee. more are being opened regularly. Since a huge market for the S is in WA/OR, and lots of CHAdeMO in that market, I see no other option than to offer the adapter or risk pissing off a lot of people. nothing takes away that Tesla grin like having to spend hours charging at a 30A blink charger right next to a 300A QC... it's down right embarrassing.
�
Jul 21, 2013
TitaniumOverload
I doubt we will be seeing a CHAdeMO adapter in the near future. The superchargers on I-5 are open and this pretty well covers the large population regions of WA/OR. Tesla needs and is transitioning to selling cars to "regular" folks, ie non-EV early adopters. These folks just want to drive around like an ICE car, plug in at nite at home and use the nav system to find superchargers for road trips. Few folks are going to need CHAdeMO "sort of fast" chargers when out and about. Yes I know some folks will say, "But I drive xxx number of miles each day and need to fast charge in the middle of the day and can't plug in at work." But realistically this is a small number of people. Tesla is a business and trying to become a major player doesn't mesh with providing everything to every niche consumer.�
Jul 21, 2013
jerry33 I just want to be able to charge faster than at an RV park in OK and KS. I don't care if it's a Supercharger, ChaDEmo, J1772, or Frankenplug. Of course, I'd much rather have a Supercharger but that doesn't look to be possible for many years.�
Jul 21, 2013
PhilBa I think having superchargers on the interstates is awesome but they aren't enough. They don't remove the road-trip problem, just mitigate it a bit. There is a LOT of territory that isn't ever going to be covered by SCs. So why prevent us from using other infrastructure? We're scrambling to get 70A clipper creek chargers installed in rural parts of WA just to get a 3-4 hr charge time. A chademo adaptor is in Tesla's best interest as it further mitigates the RT problem.�
Jul 21, 2013
AmpedRealtor So Tesla provides an adapter for every other kind of charging except CHAdeMO - so why are you defending this silly omission? I mean, if you're going to provide every other plug out there, why omit one? Makes no sense. Also, you are advocating that simply because Tesla is installing Superchargers, a CHAdeMO is unnecessary because it's only "sort of fast". Well, not everyone is within driving distance of a Supercharger, so their only choices are to charge "sort of fast" at home or to charge slowly at a public charging station. Why do they, as well as the rest of us, not deserve the "sort of fast" option if that is the fastest option outside of our garage?
Consumers just want to plug in and charge, so the solution to doing that is by omitting a CHAdeMO adapter when you already sell an adapter for everything else? I do not understand this logic at all. That's like saying you can only use Shell Stations for your ICE car but not Exxon. That's highly useful for the consumer, then? It sounds to me like nothing more than rationalization for Tesla completely dropping the ball here. Why rationalize Tesla's mistake rather than encourage them to offer the maximum number of charging options to their customers?�
Jul 21, 2013
dsm363 Couldn't we at least give them time to launch the Model S in Japan with the adapter before we consider them ignoring customer demands? They just launched in Europe so they have a lot going on.
The basic point that currently, this adapter would be useful to only a few people in certain parts of the country. There isn't one within 250 miles of me and there will be a Supercharger on those routes within the year. I would rather have the adapter than not have so hope they produce it. I don't think anyone here is saying they don't want people who want one to have it just that at the current time with Tesla having limited resources that it may not be their first priority.�
Jul 21, 2013
brianman (1) You started off so well. This seems totally reasonable.
(2) And then you threw in "few people" (without supporting it with data that no-one has available yet), and beg for an argument.
Just sayin'.�
Jul 21, 2013
dsm363 Few people meaning people clustered around the areas that have the CHAdeMO stations (Washington state, Chicago, Oregon, Houston/Dallas, parts of California and Tennessee). You said I didn't support it with data but can you show me a map of CHAdeMO stations that is every 50 miles along major highways that would make it useful for its intended audience (Leaf owners)? If more than 50% of Tesla customers lived in Tennessee or WA/OR where there is a heavy density of CHAdeMO stations then the phrase 'few people' would be incorrect I'll admit. That doesn't take anything away from the fact that the people in those areas really want and need the adapter as it would be very useful to them. Again, I hope Tesla makes the adapter.
We will benefit from the adapter since if you can make it to a major city with a CHAdeMO station you can get a quicker charge for driving around before you head out and hit the next Supercharger in the future. Nissan had a 3 year head start on their charging network (I know it isn't officially Nissan's charging network but they are the major player here) so it will take Tesla time to catch up.
Didn't mean anything bad with the phrase 'few people'. There are many more CHAdeMO chargers than Superchargers at this point but that may change. I still want the adapter and hope Tesla makes it as it can be useful and if Nissan and others ramp up CHAdeMO installations in the US could be really useful to all Tesla customers. With other companies now backing the Frankenplug coming out though we might see more of those coming on line so can't expect CHAdeMO to take off like it is in Japan.
Number of CHAdeMO Chargers in US Passes 200-Unit Mark; 300 Mark to Fall Soon
Looks like there are under 300 charge points for CHAdeMO in US. Telsa has 14 locations today (each with 2-10 points each I believe so already have almost 1/4th the number or charge points).�
Jul 21, 2013
brianman I think you missed my point. Note that you said "few" and I called that out. And then you reply with (paraphrasing) "but you're not supporting more than few / many". You're right. I didn't. That's my point.
I think we can agree on what you said in (1) but we should table (2) for now because it's not getting us anywhere in this or the other threads. And more broadly, (a) I think we can agree on giving Tesla a pass for "some time" while they get Europe, Japan, etc. underway and we see the CHAdeMO results that come out of that and (b) I hope we can agree that we're not going to get a consensus on the "demand" or "value" of CHAdeMO for North America on TMC for at least 6 months.�
Jul 21, 2013
dsm363 A dense number of CHAdeMO locations can be counted on two hands. You could make the argument that Tesla has done a better job actually by heavily hitting California where almost 1/3rd the Model Ss live and now Portland to Vancouver. That isn't a knock on the people who who want the adapter, just a statement of fact. Not all Tesla customers live in those areas just as not all Tesla customers live in areas with Superchargers at the moment.
Again, I hope they come out with the adapter. While it might not currently be useful to 'depends on how you define few' Tesla customers, it is very useful to the people who live in areas that have them or drive to cities that have them (because I don't know of any CHAdeMO stations outside I5 and maybe Tennessee that are clustered along major highways between cities).�
Jul 21, 2013
AmpedRealtor BLINK shows 84 DC fast chargers (CHAdeMO) nationwide... and 34 of those (40%) are right here in Phoenix. No, not Washington or Oregon or some island out in the Pacific. The last time I checked, there was no supercharger in Phoenix, although one is planned for this year but nobody seems to know where it's going to be. And even then, I'm sure those 34 CHAdeMO stations throughout the valley provide me with better options than a single supercharger location that has yet to materialize. So please, let's stop with the nonsense that there are no CHAdeMO stations where it matters. There are an estimated 400 Model S vehicles in Arizona, the vast majority of which are probably in the Phoenix area.�
Jul 21, 2013
dsm363 Where did I say 'there are no CHAdeMO stations where it matters'? Also, where did I mention 'some island out in the Pacific'? I repeat (yet again) the adapter will be very useful to some people and even more useful if more cities add CHAdeMO stations but let's not pretend either CHAdeMO or Tesla has major highway routes or most major cities blanketed with charge points. The CHAdeMO stations also do little to help with intercity travel if the two cities are farther than 250 miles apart. The CHAdeMO and Supercharger networks actually serve two different purposes anyway. If you drive out of Phoenix 200 miles away, how useful would you find the CHAdeMO stations all the way back in Phoenix to be to you at that point? Superchargers are for intercity travel and CHAdeMO stations are more for cars like the Leaf with very limited range or for the Model S (with the adapter) to top up quickly once you arrive at your destination city.�
Jul 21, 2013
brianman Unless residential CHAdeMO is available in some areas, PlugShare needs to fix their filtering to respect the "only CHAdeMO" filter properly. That said, here's what they show for North America:
The red lines and numbers are from Plugshare's tally when zooming in. I think there were about 6 grey and blue (non-orange) entries on the right-most zoom-in, so perhaps drop that number to 34.�
Jul 21, 2013
AmpedRealtor No need to get defensive, I was not responding directly to you but addressing prior statements and criticisms by others.�
Jul 21, 2013
Eberhard Standard Typ2 allows 70kW DC (140A 500V) bur with the modified enhanced pins it may go up to 120kW like the US Connector.
3-phase charging in the US would be nice for those, having the 120V/208V 3-phase grid.�
Jul 21, 2013
EVNow That is a poor way to make decisions - and probably how bean counting faceless wall street corporations work. I hope Tesla doe sbetter - it should be about delighting the customers (taking into consideration effect on the bottomline).�
Jul 21, 2013
arg That 70kW is a theoretical figure for a car that charges continuously at 500V.
In the case of the Model S, almost all charging occurs below 400V (=>56kW if limited to 140A). Based on this graph, the taper dips below 140A at about 380V - so a peak charging power of 53kW, and most of it lower than that (starting at 360V ->50kW). Admitedly things will be slightly better with the new taper rate announced recently, but never more than 56kW.
So they would have had to more than double the current rating of the pins to get all the way up to 120kW.�
Jul 21, 2013
jerry33 You hit the nail on the head with this one. In most places CHAdeMO are in the cities. High speed chargers are mainly needed between cities where they facilitate travel. Having 20 (or whatever) in Dallas doesn't do a Tesla owner a lick of good.�
Jul 21, 2013
dirkhh That's an interesting statement. There are two ways to think about chargers and road trips:
1) I need a network of Superchargers along the Interstates so I can get from A to B
2) Once I'm in B I likely want to drive around and need to be able to charge there. This can be done either by having every hotel add 14-50's - or by having enough Fast DC chargers within cities so that you can charge while shopping at a mall. And since chargers within cities are also extremely useful to the people with the much shorter range non-Tesla EVs, it makes sense for the chargers in cities to use a broader standard. CHAdeMO is one possible way to do that and it appears to be making inroads. We'll see what happens long term, but for now a CHAdeMO adapter would indeed be a very valuable addition.�
Jul 21, 2013
jerry33 1. I avoid interstates whenever possible. I want chargers along the more interesting routes and leave the interstates to the truckers and RVs.
2. My assumption is that when I arrive at the end of a day's drive, I'll have dinner and go to the B&B, so the charger needs to be where I'm staying. Pretty much any kind of a 240V plug/EVSE will be fine for that. If CHAdeMO becomes popular for B&Bs, then I'd want an adapter. Otherwise, I have Blink and Charge Point cards that I've never used.�
Jul 21, 2013
dsm363 I think this is an excellent summary. Both intercity and something faster than 30A level II chargers in cities are needed. I'm not sure if CHAdeMO will win out in the end or extend beyond Nissan but giving people the option of buying the adapter would settle that issue until either CHAdeMO or the Frankenplug (or both) reached mass rollout in the US.�
Jul 21, 2013
stopcrazypp You are saying this like there's an equivalence with the other charging options (J1772 and UMC adapters), but there's not. The CHAdeMO adapter will be the most complex one. And Tesla doesn't have a SAE DC option yet either, nor some fairly common NEMA sockets (the one raised recently was TT-30, which should be easy for Tesla to make actually). If it was as easy to make as the others, Tesla would have it by now.
I'm just thinking that way because superchargers are part of marketing. Battery swapping is similar (few people will probably use it but it has great marketing value). I'm not sure if a CHAdeMO adapter will have anywhere near the same marketing value. The people I have seen complaining either have/had a Leaf or they already have a Model S and have experienced having to charge at a J1772 when a CHAdeMO is available. Of course only Tesla knows the true demand.
And Tesla has to prioritize their engineering resources too (which is now clearly focused on the the European Model S and probably the RHD version next), so it's not simply bean counting. Sales generating items obviously are number one priority. There's also other bugs/issues with the car that are probably a higher customer experience priority than a CHAdeMO adapter.
But all this argument is moot assuming my original assumption is correct (that the Japanese and US Model S shares the same port). There will definitely be one made for Japan as CHAdeMO is the "official" standard there (it's not in the US) and there's no real plans for superchargers there.�
Jul 21, 2013
rlang59 I think it is going to be funny when the complaints change from Tesla not having an adapter to Tesla is charging too much for the adapter. :biggrin:�
Jul 22, 2013
Skotty Unfortunately, I think we have to give it time. I could complain that Tesla should be building superchargers in my area first (instead of being towards the end of roll out), especially considering that folks in areas like the coasts already have plenty of other charging options including CHAdeMO (for Leafs) and tons of J1772. I have to make a weekly trip for business that is about 260 miles round trip with no chargers in route -- not even a single J1772. Who's going to meet my needs? Well, Tesla is, but I have to wait for it; probably until late 2014. It's almost the same thing with Tesla offering a CHAdeMO adapter. Yeah, it would be useful. It's not currently available. Just give it some time, and I'm betting Tesla will make one.
The big difference is Tesla hasn't made a formal statement about whether or not they will offer a CHAdeMO adapter in the US. They need to just come out and officially say they will. Until they do, those who want it don't know if they will EVER get it. I think that's the real problem here. It's the same reason I don't give a rats behind about CHAdeMO. They are no where near my area, and without anyone making any commitments to build them, I just assume there will never be any.�
Jul 22, 2013
gregincal You know I never understand this "drive around" argument. Maybe I'm different, but when I'm visiting some place I don't drive a hundred miles a day, I do that when I'm getting there. When I'm there I might drive a couple dozen miles, but can visit a place for a while without needed to charge at all. I've done weekends away where I don't even bother to charge until I get home. And if a need some level of charging I'd far prefer it to be at my hotel rather than having to spend any time some place charging. The real place for non Tesla level 3 is secondary highways that won't get Superchargers. PAC northwest has that, but nowhere else.�
Jul 22, 2013
rdrcrmatt
I'm just the opposite.. I commute 200 miles daily so I'm within range but there are days I have to make side trips that will put me over.
There are a couple chademo chargers around my office that I would really like to use if at all possible.
It is unfortunate that Tesla won't publish specs for the supercharging interface in order to facilitate 3rd party chademo adapters.�
Jul 22, 2013
bollar Maybe it's just the long distances involved here in the middle of the country, or maybe it's just business travel, but I regularly drive 150+ miles a day when I visit Houston. Overnight charging at a hotel is good, but being able to do a Chademo charge over lunch would be great.
In any event, until there's an SC between DFW and Houston, it's a theoretical discussion -- that drive is only for the most die-hard Tesla fan -- you'd arrive with a discharged battery and would have to do an overnight charge before you could make any of the client visits.�
Jul 22, 2013
100thMonkey I don't think most people can say they are an interstate driver vs a non-interstate driver or whether they only need slowish destination charging or fast on the go charging. If I were to describe our trips this summer in that manner I'd have to say we morph from one type to another. We tend to do the bulk of our driving for long distance on the freeway then shift to side roads as needed, sometimes ending up in the sticks for camping, other times ending up in the middle of a large city or small town, staying with friends sometimes, trying to home adapt, needing every slowish adapter possible because so far I've run into a dizzying array of plugs beyond what Tesla offers, sometimes a plug is dead or not grounded properly or has too high a voltage drop, other times we are at a hotel with only CHAdeMO's and a Roadster HPC other times it's the down to extension cords.
Tesla should just aim to create virtually every adapter possible because Murphy's law shows that it's always the one you don't have that's the limiting factor. In area's Tesla does not plan to put superchargers, adapters like CHAdeMO should be placed by Tesla at key intersections in lock boxes or on a permanent pedestal next to existing CHAdeMO so owners don't have to purchase them, if they are going to be expensive. Unfortunately it's the occasional random bad experience that gets emphasized in one's memory... or maybe I should say my wife's memory. Tesla needs to keep an eye on the rare and random as well as the common experience, if they truly want to dazzle, IMHO.�
Jul 22, 2013
jomo25 Having the ability to fast charge in a destination city is still valuable. If I drive using SC or FC from Phx to SD, I may reach there with a low charge state since they are planned to be spaced accordingly to connect cities. If I time it so I arrive at night and go to bed, sure L2 is fine (assuming the hotel has L2). But if I leave early in the AM, and arrive at 2pm, I'll still want to drive around and do stuff. And I don't want to have to wait 4-5 hours to charge up at L2 station before doing so.
I agree SC and FC are much more useful on interstates for intercity travel. But that doesn't mean having them in the cities is useless. It's why I'm fine with Tesla focusing their SC rollouts to connect cities, but would love to have the Chademo capability to charge up in the cities I'm visiting.�
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