Thứ Tư, 28 tháng 12, 2016

No hatch-back on model 3 - Anyone else disappointed. part 2

  • Apr 14, 2016
    Topher
    The sales numbers say that US customers want large gas guzzling trucks. What's your point?

    Thank you kindly.
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  • Apr 14, 2016
    SageBrush
    Perhaps Europe would be instructive, where hatchbacks are preferred.
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  • Apr 14, 2016
    yesup
    Majority is sedans in US.

    Actually, it is interesting that Model S is a liftback disguised as a sedan. Most people would have thought Model S is a normal sedan until you open the trunk. I think Tesla on purpose avoid the typical hatch back or wagon "look" for Model S.
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  • Apr 14, 2016
    yesup
    Tesla is watching the sales numbers in terms of body style categories, and they are confident in converting the gas lovers to the EV camp.
    And you are absolutely correct, a Tesla Pick Up Truck is in the plan according to Elon! Tesla Vice President says Model 3 reservations are �approaching 400,000�, real success will be delivery
    So that illustrates my point exactly - Tesla would go after the market according to sales numbers.

    And you are welcome.
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  • Apr 14, 2016
    SageBrush
    I at least care less about the 'look' and more about the functionality.
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  • Apr 14, 2016
    eloder
    That's great, but if that were true of most consumers than the Honda FIt and Toyota Prius would be the only two cars to sell in any volume under $30k in price.
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  • Apr 14, 2016
    Az_Rael
    This is an interesting point. Those cars aren't death traps, and I don't think a hatch is that much more expensive at INITIAL design but Tesla is working with different design parameters vs a manufacturer building subcompact hatchbacks under $20K. Tesla is trying to reduce the drag coefficient of their cars, AND maintain rear seat headroom AND keep the car looking "sexy". So, sure the 3 could be a hatch, but if they try to keep the headroom, they would have to raise the roof height, affecting the drag coefficient, maybe affecting the sporty looks, etc. Maybe it would end up looking more like a Bolt, since that is the same design parameters Chevy was working with, except they decided to prioritize hatchback and rear seat headroom instead of drag coefficient and looks.

    At this point in the design process, adding a hatchback would be very expensive because that structural member in the aft part of the car would have to be redesigned and those loads redirected elsewhere. You can't just cut that crossbeam and make it into a hatch, the rest of the frame in that area would have to be strengthened. That is easy to do at initial design, but much, much harder to do at this point in the design process. That structure and frame is probably 95% complete and locked in right now.

    In the long run, I think Tesla is saving the hatchback for the Y and leaving the 3 for the very popular sedan category in the US.
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  • Apr 14, 2016
    stopcrazypp
    I disagree with this. They know the lift-back gets in the way of rear headroom because this is a frequent complaint of the Model S. I don't think there is much chance of a hatchback Model 3 anytime soon. The closest will be the Model Y, but that will be a CUV.

    Elon had only committed to making the trunk opening larger, he seems to be clear it will not be changed to a hatchback.
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  • Apr 14, 2016
    SageBrush
    At least I am consistent. Those are the two cars we currently own :)

    Oh, and I like the look of both of them. Not amazing, but fine.
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  • Apr 14, 2016
    EVnut
    Especially when you consider that the US car market also overwhelmingly chooses gas cars over EVs. :wink:

    I believe "rare" correct. From what I can tell, there is exactly one other full size, 4-door, performance/lux hatchback. The Panamera.
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  • Apr 14, 2016
    EVnut
    Oh yes. I totally get that. Great post, btw. Thanks for not falling down the hole if "if you want a hatch, go buy another car, dummy!"

    I guess some folks are claiming that this can and should be changed to a hatch. And while I would of course love this to be a hatch, I know with significant certainty that - as you say - this part simply has to be locked down by now if there's any hope of reasonable production time. It isn't a matter of just adding a hinge in the glass and calling it good. And a part of this trunk decision is due to the desire of making a super-safe car at a reasonable price. It is easier (and thus cheaper) to build a stronger car with a trunk and fixed shelf behind the rear seat - than one with a huge opening and less cross support.

    As long as Elon (Yes, I call him Elon. We're tight) comes through with as big an opening as possible, I've made peace with the trunk thing. The rest of it is too awesome to be fretting over the hatch too much. I'll figure out a way to carry all my crap. Or figure out a way to stop "needing" to carry so much of it.
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  • Apr 14, 2016
    stopcrazypp
    This point is specious because Tesla's only mission is to get more people to buy EVs. In contrast, they never had a goal of getting more people to buy hatchbacks (that is not an end goal). If making a sedan will get more people to buy EVs, Tesla is quite happy to do that (same with CUV/SUVs and pickups, even though some in the green crowd view them as evil).

    I say this as a person who would greatly prefer (and expected) the Model 3 to be a hatchback.

    Although it is squarely mid-size, the A7 is the other example. However, the sales figures of related models shows US preferences for car styles:

    A7 2015: 7721
    A6 2015: 22850
    Q7 2015: 18995

    Panamera 2015: 4985
    Cayanne 2015: 16474
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  • Apr 14, 2016
    EVnut
    OK. You got me. Of course the argument is specious. Just making the oblique point which I'm sure you understand: If hatches are not offered in this segment (like EVs were not offered in this segment until now with this HUGE interest) then do we really know what customer demand is?

    So you're pretty sure that they were trying to limit sales of the Model S hatchback? I'm still not grasping that logic.

    I wonder if anybody can explain why the S is a hatch, and the 3 is not... if one is so CLEARLY the more desirable configuration.

    To make that causal relationship, wouldn't all of these cars have to also be the same price in the same market? (note: I have no idea what the prices are, or even if the un-selling hatches are less expensive and better equipped!)

    Every car I can think of in my neighborhood is a hatch (I'm counting SUVs and wagons too... anything without a sedan trunk). I see so few sedans around here, that this whole preference thing stymies me. But it must be real. Numbers don't lie! I should take five minute tomorrow and do a real survey of the vehicles near me. Quite curious now.
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    stopcrazypp
    The A7 vs A6 is an example where people are given a choice of the two. They still overwhelmingly chose the sedan (preferences are flipped in Europe).

    Personally, I think Tesla's decision to choose rear headroom over a hatch for the 3 is a wrong one, but we'll see how the sales goes. It is hard to compare because there is no direct comparison (3 will sell more than the S regardless of configuration).

    Also, the Model S is styled like a sedan (and marketed everywhere as a sedan), so it is not a particularly good "pro-hatchback" example. A person can conceivably want to buy one thinking it is a sedan, but then after they find it is actually a hatch, it probably isn't dealbreaker. However, I suspect Tesla saw how the Model S had always been criticized for having poor rear headroom (which can be a dealbreaker), so they made this design decision.

    No. Hatchbacks almost always cost more than the sedan version of the same car. It has to do with the additional complexity of the hatch (needs stronger rear chassis components and more weather/noise insulation).

    A SUV/CUV is not a hatchback, entirely different segment. Anecdotal evidence also isn't very useful. I live in the Bay Area where it seems like practically every car is a hybrid or plug-in, but nationwide it is still under 3% of total vehicle sales.
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    EcoHeliGuy
    Hatchbacks are my preference, by the time we are ready for our purchase, tesla will have one. Model 3 purchase price was for the Masses, no one ever said the car had to be.
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    garsh
    It's just as often a sedan or coupe.
    10 cheapest cars: Why (almost) nobody buys them
    Only half are hatchbacks. Hatchbacks generally provide more space in a smaller package, but they add to the cost of a vehicle due to the larger, heavier moving part. I know that for the Nissan Versa, the hatchback is about $2300 more than the sedan.
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    diamond.g
    For whatever reason, in the US, hatchbacks are seen as cheaper vehicles (even when not). VW Golfs tend to be nicer cars than the Jettas, but folks don't feel they should cost more than a Jetta.

    I would love a Model 3 as a lift-back/hatchback. But will still order one even if it isn't. I actually considered the Bolt, but the lack of a charging solution commitment plus the crap they are pulling towards Tesla, plus the lack of an autopilot tech turned me off.
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    Mark C
    I prefer a trunk over a hatch. IMHO, (1) a trunk better keeps cargo from becoming projectiles that can hit me in the back of the head in an accident, (2) trunks keep items out of sight from people who look to break in your car to steal what you have in view, and (3) the hatch would more likely spill more conditioned air from the interior of my car while loading and unloading.

    Please note that I don't carry surf boards, great danes or furniture around in my car. I'm sure if I did, a hatch would make much more sense to me. So, if the Model 3 remains a trunk, I'll buy it. If the Model 3 is converted to a hatch, I'll still buy it. I don't think you could buy a better EV for the money anywhere else.
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    EVnut
    ... and the rest of it.

    Great post, stopcrazypp (eventually I'll need to learn what the "pp" is). Your calm presentation of fact and opinion is refreshing. Thank you for making the effort and for not attacking me for my naivet� regarding the current automobile market. I know utility. And I know EVs. Beyond what I see around me (anecdotally!) my knowledge of availability and market preference stops there.

    For the record, I certainly know the limitations of anecdotal evidence....yet it has NO limit in satisfying my curiosity to see if my perception about what's around me pans out.

    And certainly I'm also aware that SUVs are not in the same "market" or "segment" as hatchbacks. The only thing that I'm curious about is utility. Why people would choose to purposefully limit their carry cargo carrying ability in a product that is so large, heavy and expensive. And for that I have two categories in my addled mind: Traditional sedan/trunk configuration vs. anything with a large cargo opening.

    We all use cars differently, and I know that one of the most common uses is to move sedentary people a few miles between home and office.... which requires no cargo space or hauling efficiency. I totally get that. It doesn't thrill me, but I get it.
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    EVnut
    A couple of things come to mind;
    1. There are easy ways to mitigate cargo projectiles in a hatch. It can be built-in or aftermarket.
    1.5 Crashes are not accidents (#crashnotaccident)
    2. Again, there exists such a simple mitigation that almost every hatch I'm aware of comes with the solution today. A cargo cover.
    3. This one I've only learned from threads like this. I've never considered this, though where I live we see temps of 110F every summer, and well below freezing every winter. And every car I own is a hatch. I guess this just isn't noticeable for me as it is never more than a moment's inconvenience. And hell, if I'm operating the hatch, I'm already out in the heat and cold. By the time I hop back in the car, there's no difference in the conditioned air.

    Perfect. Switch trunk and hatch, and that's my same sentiment.
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    EVnut
    Interesting article. I found this both interesting and true in my experience:

    And I have to wonder how much of that goes on with hatchbacks in general. Are they as available as sedans (when the same exists for one model of car?) are they pushed as much by the salespeople? Do hatch buyers have to order and wait? I don't know. And just what IS the deal with the huge difference between US and Euro buyers?
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    yesup
    The preference for sedan is real. But in some cases, it became a vicious cycle where the less in demand models are harder to get.
    For example, the previous generation BMW 5 series wagon sold so poorly in US that they have stopped selling it all together for the current generation. So you simply cannot buy one even if you want to.

    On the other hand, cars like VW Golf is readily available, but it is still outsold by Jetta by a large margin despite Jetta being on the aging older platform and worse than Golf in almost every aspect.
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    SageBrush
    Sounds like you do not watch enough TV.

    We Americans like to throw dead bodies and kidnappees in the trunk. For obvious reasons a hatch is nowhere near as good.
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    Luke42
    Same here. But our other car is a minivan.

    My wife is starting a job with a long commute (much longer than mine). She might claim Model 3 for a littany of very good reasons: cheaper fuel, autopilot, safety features, etc...

    So, I might be stuck with the gas guzzling minivan until we see the Model Y. The Model Y needs to be at least as useful as a Mazda5 in order to get us the rest of the way off of gasoline. But, a hatchless Model 3 does solve a number of very real problem for us, and might even save us a lot of money if it proves to be reliable on a 30k-mile/year duty cycle.

    Alas, I didn't sign up for two Model 3s. But, honestly, we only need one car with the capabilities of the Model 3, and the second car really needs to be a 3-row people mover (like a Mazda5 or a Toyota Sienna).
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    Ocelot
    I currently own an A3 hatch. It is so versatile, with over 43 cubic feet of space with the seats down, its hard to envision driving a sedan ever again. It is truly amazing what can fit in a hatchback. When you compare the opening size with the new model 3 opening size, well its night and day.

    [?IMG]
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    diamond.g
    image.jpeg
    You don't have the cover?
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    EVnut
    For the record, I don't use the cover on any of my hatchbacks - merely because it gets in the way, and creates an annoying "trunk" for me. I keep eyeballs off my gear with proper tinting of the cargo area windows.
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    Incredulocious
    Yeah! I loved my A3. Had to wait months in 2006 on an order to get it with the 3.2L Quattro minus the sunroof � I was bumping my head otherwise (as I do in a Model S with sunroof). I sold it in 2011 to go electric with the LEAF. No trouble with headroom, legroom or cargo room there, doesn't look as nice though. Been in a half-a-Tesla RAV4 EV since late 2013 waiting for a smaller, sportier, AWD electric car. Obviously I have a reservation for the Model 3 now. I would be very tempted if Audi finally did an all electric, all wheel drive A3 "sportback", particularly if they came to their senses and bought into Tesla's Supercharger network.
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    eloder
    And once you experience a 15 seater van, where you can literally put beds and cabinets into it while still seating your entire family, you'll never go back to a hatchback!

    People who don't like hatchbacks are already aware of their cargo advantages. Most people simply don't have much use, ever, for holding that much cargo or are willing to drop $20 on a U-Haul the 1-2 times a year they may need it. Many in the US market prefer performance, passenger room, and aesthetics over cargo capabilities. Europe prefers utility and practicality. It's the reason why smart cars in the US are extremely niche and minority, while smart cars in Europe are considered the most premium car in the micro segment.
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    Steepler2k
    I drive to work and back. That's pretty much it. I think hatchbacks (in the traditional sense, like a Bolt) are hideous. The liftback form of a Model S is appealing though, and I think few would look at it and say hatchback. My wife is an SUV person, so if we need to haul stuff, we'll just always use her car. Never a concern for me. Love how the current design look and gives interior roominess/comfort feel.
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    Incredulocious
    The funny thing about this discussion that keeps going round and round is that many hatchback lovers also love performance, passenger room and yes, even aesthetics. That was certainly the case for me with the A3: I loved the performance of the S-line version and the dual clutch and all wheel drive, was happy I could sit in the back despite my height (6'4") and the compact form of the A3 and I liked the looks of it, inside and out. They tried to upsell me to the A4 or A5 but the sedans with boot/trunk weren't at all appealing to me, aesthetically or in practicality!

    I think what it really comes down to is just that some people like and some don't like hatchbacks/liftbacks. All those other qualities (and many more: fuel economy, luxury, design, reliability, cost, etc) vary in importance or interpretation for everyone regardless of whether they want a trunk or a hatchback.

    That leaves some loving the Model 3 but disappointed in the lack of a liftback. It could've gone the other way round and in fact many of us expected it to and discussed this leading up to the reveal, given the Model S design.
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    S?XY P100D
    To the dismay of some hatchback fans like me,
    I just learned that the 3 will not be a hatchback per a tweet from Elon Musk himself.

    @Christiano92 @Inspron @Jerry22499879 won't be a hatchback, but we should be able to increase the opening width and height

    Ironically, I too was an A3 owner - a 2009 sportback Quattro - and it was by far my favorite out of all the cars I've owned. Yet I'm 110% positive that that will change with the Model 3.

    Full article:
    Five Things You Didn't Know About the Tesla Model 3
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    eloder
    And for most Americans, on average, hatchbacks aren't preferred for aesthetics no matter what form they come in.

    Just look at actual, real-life sales of hatchbacks versus sedans and other cars in the US.

    Yes, but a liftback doesn't work on a vehicle the size of the Model 3. It's a physical impossibility unless you want the rear seats to be for children only, or the front of the car to look like a smart car. Making the Model 3 a liftback--in Tesla's own words--would kill rear passenger headroom, rear visibility, and/or aesthetics.

    I don't see how so many people on this forum think that Tesla engineers are purposefully gutting their mass-market car that they specifically designed to revolutionize and change the entire world, literally. They aren't sitting in a room, conspiring to hobble this car so that people don't buy it.
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  • Apr 15, 2016
    Incredulocious
    Well, that's not so clear cut. Many manufacturers report that for models which are offered in both sedan and hatchback forms, the hatchback forms are actually very popular and often exceed the sales of the sedan version. Also, when you consider how popular SUV's and crossovers are (now exceeding sedans) and that most of these are essentially hatchbacks in form or function... it's a little odd to keep saying that most Americans don't like the utility of hatchbacks.

    Hatchbacks: Who says Americans don't buy 'em?
    Ford: Sales Figures Suggest the Hatch is Here to Stay
    Hatchback vs Sedan: Why You Might Want to Consider a Hatchback - Autotrader
    SUVs and crossovers overtake sedans as most popular U.S. vehicles
    http://jalopnik.com/a-simple-explanation-why-america-doesnt-get-european-h-1493377285
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  • Apr 16, 2016
    stopcrazypp
    The Motor Trend article says hatchbacks are getting more more popular, but the numbers they show say the sedans still outsell hatchbacks (although it has improved from previous years).

    The Autoblog article shows more favorable news for hatchback models, but they are the cheapest econoboxes at the bottom of the lineup (Fiesta, Yaris, Accent, Aveo). For the ones that are slightly higher in the lineup (Mazda 3 and Jetta/Golf) the sedan handily outsells the hatchback.

    And once you get to the premium segment (as for Model 3), the examples shown gives a very horrible case for hatchbacks. The A7 (outsold by A6) and Panamera (mediocre sales) I already discussed. The A3 vs A4 is a good example; the A4 sedan handily outsold the hatchback-only A3, until 2014 when they introduced the sedan version of the A3.
    Audi A3 Sales Figures - GOOD CAR BAD CAR
    Audi A4 Sales Figures - GOOD CAR BAD CAR

    As for talking about CUV/SUVs, Americans do not view them the same as hatchbacks. Automakers treat hatchback as a dirty world in the premium segment. They do everything they can to make a hatchback into a "crossover" (including slight changes in ride height and body cladding). Sometimes the only thing they do is change the name (as below):
    http://jalopnik.com/why-dealers-forced-infiniti-to-change-the-q30s-name-1752012232

    I am 100% sure a traditional hatchback like A3 would sell significantly worse. A sedan-like hatchback like the S (marketed as a sedan) is a different story, but already know why Tesla didn't chose this configuration (rear headroom).
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  • Apr 16, 2016
    yesup
    First, as stopcrazypp pointed out, SUVs/CUVs are not considered hatchback, they are in a different market segment all together.

    And if you look at the sales number, it is very clear cut.
    In 2014 in US, 35.5% sales are sedans, 5.5% hatchbacks, 1.2% wagons, 36.5% SUVs/CUVs.
    Can't get any more clear cut as that.

    Can you give me some examples of which hatchback forms outsells the sedan versions? I can't think of any.
    On the contrary, I can give you tons of example of the opposite like Golf vs Jetta.

    And I have been hearing over and over again about what don't you like about utility of hatchback, or what is there to lose etc.
    Surprisingly, utility is not the number 1 concern when people buy cars, actually, it's not even in the top 10!

    10 Top Reasons Why People Buy Specific Cars

    Utility and practicality not in the top 10 for 2015 survey.
    And 1/3 of the buyer won't consider the car if they don't like the exterior styling.

    If everyone worries about utility, no one would be buying coupe and convertible versions - you get less room, less cargo space, less rear passenger room but yet, you are charged more for the car.
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  • Apr 16, 2016
    SageBrush
    Yup. It's like someone saying that toe-mah-toes and toe-may-toes are the same thing.

    For the same reason that 'sedan' is not either: it is not one of the choices because the survey is trying parse consumer choice within a segment.
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  • Apr 16, 2016
    yesup
    Actually, it is.
    Exterior styling is the number 2 reason. So US consumers prefer sedan and SUV styling, and not wagon or hatchback.
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  • Apr 16, 2016
    aronth5
    Clear cut, no not really. If you look at this differently you can just as easily make the claim that the vast majority of car buyers prefer cars that have easy access to load and store cargo.
    That is why most buy liftbacks, hatchbacks, SUV's/CUVs and wagons. And if you toss in pick up trucks with easy access sedans become an even smaller percentage of cars sold.
    The message here is what you hear all the time, you can make stats say pretty much anything you want:)
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  • Apr 16, 2016
    yesup
    Hmmm....... sorry, I don't get your point at all.
    We are not trying to categorize car by utilities or usage. You need to look at the stats from Tesla car production point of view. Of course, you can choose another angle to analyze the data, but it would not be relevant to the discussion of this thread.

    Let's put it this way, you are the Tesla CEO, and you know that you can produce two models based on the new compact chassis in the next 6 years. Which body style would you choose?
    If you decide to base your decision on sales numbers, the choice is very clear cut. Sedan and SUVs/CUVs would have 72% of the potential market, the largest pie possible - Model 3 and Model Y. After that, you may see a Tesla pickup in the road map.

    Why would you lump all the hatchbacks, wagons, SUVs together? They are all different cars and different designs. Tesla has limited production and development capacity. Bigger manufacturers would produce all variations including coupe and convertible to have the largest market share available. Tesla cannot do that.
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  • Apr 16, 2016
    Luke42
    I don't agree with your argument, because the hatchback on our Prius worked fine with respect to interior space and rear seat room for us for 12 years.

    Judging by the photos, our 2004 Prius was slightly smaller than the Model 3.
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  • Apr 16, 2016
    EcoHeliGuy
    Just want to point out that Mini has done just that, very successfully. Sharing of parts and assembly line, you can offer lots of shapes.
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    yesup
    Not only Mini, almost all established manufacturers do this too. Modern platforms are modular and flexible, and you can build different body style as long as you have time and money for development, and production capacity to accommodate the expansion of model lines.

    Tesla would love to do it too, but they have not grown to that stage yet.

    Mini sold 338,000 cars in 2015; Tesla 50,500.
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    p-f-g
    Funny, you just described Audi A4 or BMW 3 wagons... ;)
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    Zoomit
    US buyers like the perception of utility. If they valued actual utility, minivans would sell much more. If you consider how most SUVs are really used, a minivan blows it away with respect to utility.
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    Intendant
    I prefer the sedan, actually. :)
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    Topher
    "We" are not trying to categorize cars at all. We are just trying to buy the car that fits us best. Overwhelmingly, those cars have large rear doors to access cargo. I have not heard a single reason that a sedan is a BETTER CAR. Which is the only thing Tesla should be looking at. There are zero statistics about which trunk option sells better in mid-priced high-range electric vehicles.

    Thank you kindly.
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    Topher
    Why? If there were two versions of the Model ?, with exactly the same shape, interior and exterior, but one had the rear door hinged low, and one high, why would you choose the one hinged low?

    Thank you kindly.
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    Zoomit
    What about the "single reason" that Elon gave? That within the aerodynamic design constraints, the sedan trunk yields a better car. "Better" is in Tesla's perspective of course, and they obviously prioritized rear seat headroom over cargo access. They also needed to distinguish the Model 3 from the Model Y.

    This is all plowed ground.
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    metier
    Less road noise with trunk. Don't like the cheap look of the hatch cover. More head room in the back seat with trunk.
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    ZAKEEUS
    In the U.S. Lots of people have 2 vehicles. A sedan and either a SUV or truck. A car can be used for utility but I most would rather keep the car clean and use the SUV/Truck for their utility needs. That being said, I drive a hatchback and I recently used it to drive back and forth to Lowes to pick up materials for almost 300' of privacy fence. If the trunk design yields better aerodynamics, that should really be the end of this argument.
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    Intendant
    We have a CR-V if we need to move cargo. I'm looking for primarily a business car. I work for a nonprofit and do a lot of fundraising - I have to go out and meet donors all the time. A sedan is more professional-looking, has less road noise, etc. A trunk and frunk provide more than adequate room for anything i need to carry with me and, as Elon Musk pointed out, the sedan design gets you better headroom in the rear due to rearranging where the supports are placed.
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    Topher
    How can a car that looks the same inside and out, look more professional?

    Thank you kindly.
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    Zoomit
    Generally, the closer you get to a limousine or executive sedan (MB S-class) the more professional a car will be perceived in the business world.
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    igotzzoom
    There are plenty of 5-door variants in Europe that look very similar to the conventional sedans. For a U.S. example, compare the BMW 4-Series "Gran Coupe" vs. the regular 3-Series sedan. The rear window is slightly less horizontal and the decklid is slightly longer on the 3-Series, but otherwise they look very similar. Also, the 5-door version of the Mazda 6 offered several years ago in the U.S. (and still offered in overseas markets) is similar. Ford also sells a 5-door variant of the Mondeo (sold in the U.S. as the Fusion).

    3-Series

    [?IMG]

    4-Series Gran Coupe

    [?IMG]

    Ford Mondeo 5-door
    [?IMG]

    Ford Fusion

    [?IMG]
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    Topher
    Not sure how to make my question more clear. "with exactly the same shape, interior and exterior"

    Thank you kindly.
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    diamond.g
    Is that an unrealistic expectation?
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    igotzzoom
    They're not "exactly" the same, but close enough (especially the Ford) that I'd gladly trade the minor difference in styling for the added utility of the liftback. As I've said, I'm still disappointed the Model 3 is not a liftback, but not disappointed enough to cancel my reservation.
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    metier
    How will it look exactly the same internally when one will have a hatch cover or an open hatch and the other will not.
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    EcoHeliGuy
    Lift backs and hatch backs arn't the same, please stop using both terms to describe different profiles. Mustangs and Model S have lift backs. Subarus and VW golfs are hatch backs.
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    aronth5
    So does that mean you think the Model S lift back cover is cheap looking too?
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  • Apr 17, 2016
    stopcrazypp
    Yeah, we are probably talking past each other because of these differences. Technically liftbacks are a subset of hatchback, but personally I use the term "traditional hatchback" to describe cars like the Golf and A3. The Model S is not a "traditional hatchback", more of a liftback or "sedan-like hatchback" as I like to put it.

    Anyways, Elon already described the advantage of the sedan: by eliminating the hinge behind the rear passengers' heads it allows better rear headroom (something that was a constant complaint in the Model S).
    �
  • Apr 17, 2016
    yesup
    There are 10 million things Tesla has to look at when designing a car - safety, noise, strength, stiffness, price, styling, range, aerodynamics etc etc

    You are just singling out one aspect - utility to evaluate which is a "better" car.
    But as Elon has stated, they could not implement a lift back design similar to Model S because of rear head room.
    Maybe utility is the only thing you care about, but this does not apply to everyone. As I mentioned before, utility is not even in the top 10 reasons of why people chose a specific car.

    First, this is not possible for Tesla, so your question is moot.
    Even for cars with both variations or very similar variations like the BMW 3 and 4 series, the sedan is still the best selling version in US.
    �
  • Apr 17, 2016
    metier
    Is the Model S a $35,000 car or a hatchback? And I have not had the chance to take a look at the back seat of the Model S to have an opinion on it.
    �
  • Apr 17, 2016
    Jopo43
    Not at all
    �
  • Apr 17, 2016
    Topher
    Of course, I am not. Where do you get that idea? This THREAD is singling out one aspect.

    Which is nonsense. If the car had no utility, no one would buy it.

    I am not going to tell Tesla what they can and can't do. This is car engineering they seem pretty good at it. I just want to adjust their relative priorities.

    Neither you, nor I, nor Tesla, knows what the market for mid-priced Electric vehicles is. They were off by 400% in their estimate on pre-orders.

    Thank you kindly.
    �
  • Apr 17, 2016
    Laserbrain
    Tesla should simply build a Model 3 sedan and a Model 3 station wagon. Both are based on the same platform. Shouldn't be a big problem.
    �
  • Apr 17, 2016
    N5329K
    They will. But they won't call it a station wagon, even if it is a station wagon. That's marketing death in the US. So they'll do what everyone else does: they'll build a station wagon, but call it a crossover SUV.
    Robin
    �
  • Apr 17, 2016
    gregincal
    Well Tesla is definitely going to be making a CUV variant of the Model 3 platform, so if hatchbacks and CUVs are the same then everybody should be happy.
    �
  • Apr 17, 2016
    yesup
    Nonsense or not, that's the fact in US: 10 Top Reasons Why People Buy Specific Cars

    People won't buy coupe or convertible if they care about utility above other considerations.
    And if you compare minivan and SUVs, minivan has much larger cargo and passenger room - then why is minivan's sales continue to decline year after year?

    And they have clearly stated their priorities, which I happen to agree with.

    But as things turn out, Tesla seems to be spot on with its decision.
    The enthusiastic response to Model 3 reservations tells you that most people are happy with the sedan body style.
    �
  • Apr 17, 2016
    yesup
    Shouldn't be a big problem other than money, time and production capacity.

    Same platform does not mean no development cost, and the cost is not trivial at all.
    And why would Tesla even consider a wagon when wagons only has 1.2% market share in US in 2014? They would not be able to sell enough wagon version to make up the development cost.
    �
  • Apr 17, 2016
    Luke42
    Not quite. I'd prefer a hatchback, but I'm keeping my reservation because, on balance, the rest of the car makes up for this one deficiency.

    Someone mentioned minivans upthread. We're so practical that we have two minivans at the moment. (We replaced our recently totaled Prius with a second minivan in anticipation of replacing the older van with an EV.) We can get away with replacing one minivan with a sedan, but we can't replace both with sedans -- due to the limitations of the design.

    I'm not happy with the sedan design, but I want the rest of the car enough that I'll make the tradeoff. I'm just one person, but this opinion is common enough to keep this thread going...!
    �
  • Apr 17, 2016
    eloder

    Sorry, but we only have three dimensions to work with. Your theoretical four-dimensional car is a physical impossibility that cannot exist.

    I'd prefer my cars to have warp drive, a 2000 light-year range, and Tardis-like interior dimensions but that's as physically possible as the design you suggest.
    �
  • Apr 17, 2016
    AEdennis
    So, I was originally surprised to hear about the controversy of the trunk and frunk and the choice of a sedan for the Model 3 vs. a hatchback. So, I wrote a blog post regarding this trunk/frunk controversy.

    Spoiler alert: considering we made our two reservations for the Model 3 sight unseen, I'm pretty happy either way, hatchback or sedan (and I'm American.) Then again, not planning on getting rid of the S when we get the 3, so there's that. Let's remember, that this is a prototype.
    �
  • Apr 17, 2016
    p-f-g
    Maybe because there is much more than the US market?
    �
  • Apr 18, 2016
    Simon Sunshine
    Elon Musk has shared (part of) his masterplan with us. Model 3 is aiming at competing with the class of Audi A4, BMW 3, Mercedes C and alike. Model S is competing with Audi A8, BMW 7, Mercedes S. What about the class in between? The price gap is very large and can be filled very profitably with at least one or two models competing with all the cars in between, could be targeting at BMW 5 or SUV like X3, X5, X6 etc. Think Elon Musk has figured this out undoubtedly, and, will surprise the competition with the launch of new models just after the delivery start of Model 3, always a step ahead.
    �
  • Apr 18, 2016
    yesup
    For sure, but US accounts for over 62% of Tesla sales. Europe, where wagons are very popular, only accounts for 17% of Tesla sales.
    �
  • Apr 18, 2016
    p-f-g
    I think this will change with smaller cars like the 3 which are in Europe much more popular than big cars like the S, regardless of price. And a 3 wagon could take a huge market share here.
    �
  • Apr 18, 2016
    ZAKEEUS
    Smaller cars the size of the Model 3 are also more popular in the U.S.
    �
  • Apr 18, 2016
    ecarfan
    I have a classic S and a 3 reservation. The 3 will replace the S. I'm fine with the 3 trunk design. I want a smaller car and do not need a hatch. The S hatch is certainly very functional but it is not a requirement. The coming CUV version of the 3 (who knows when but maybe 2019?) will be very popular and satisfy those who want a hatch in their 3.
    �
  • Apr 18, 2016
    Laserbrain
    Maybe offering a station wagon would increase sales in countries where station wagons are popular?

    This is the sales distribution of the BMW 3-series in Germany ("Touring" is the station wagon and the "GT" is a liftback like the Model S):

    [?IMG]
    Source

    And if someone wants to buy a station wagon but the manufacturer does not offer a station wagon - he will buy a different brand.

    So the Model 3 - as a sedan - is (in Germany) only competing against 26% of the BMW 3-series...
    �
  • Apr 18, 2016
    diamond.g
    Maybe Tesla should build a factory in the EU to address the difference in market. Have that factory build liftbacks/wagons. For those in the states that want a liftback/wagon then they can order one from the EU but the cost would be a little bit more to cover the shipping cost from there.

    Also another alternative, offer the wagon/liftback model but only in AWD with large battery trim, plus a small cost differential for the different body. And don't call it a Model Y.
    �
  • Apr 18, 2016
    yesup
    Absolutely.
    But with Tesla limited resource, it can only product two new models in the next few years. In that case, a sedan, Model 3, and a SUV, Model Y, would be able to address the largest market in US and the rest of the world.
    �
  • Apr 18, 2016
    gregincal
    The fact is that Tesla does not need to capture every part of the market. They will be selling as many Model 3's as they can make for the next several years regardless. Why add engineering expense to sell more cars when they won't be able to build enough of them anyway?
    �
  • Apr 18, 2016
    NeverFollow
    26% + 15% + 58% = 99% So I guess, 1% is for the Konvertible?
    �
  • Apr 18, 2016
    eloder
    Germany has poor Tesla sales, and EV sales in general because of a lack of incentives offered by the US, Norway, and other European countries.

    They have a multi-year backlog of orders, why would they spend resources/development now on a car popular in a market that is very EV-unfriendly that has horribly low existing sales?
    �
  • Apr 19, 2016
    Simon Sunshine
    Coming back to the hatchback topic, al large share of the Model 3 sales will be in Europe, where the station wagon is more popular and wanted than traditional sedans.So a hatchback or stationwagon version will certainly add to the usability and demand for families, so will definetly be a valuable addition. A CUV/SUV is another popular segment, wanted on all continents (I never understood why), so that will be a likely addition within the Tesla Model range.
    �
  • Apr 19, 2016
    garsh
    I know that the Model X is considered an SUV, but I think that's just for marketing reasons. It's not that much taller than the S. It's basically a tall wagon. I bet the Model Y will be similar, and therefore really will just be the station wagon version of the 3.
    �
  • Apr 19, 2016
    yesup
    The most important is public perception of the car body style.
    People in US do not like to be seen driving a wagon or minivan. So as long as Model X and Model Y look like a SUV in public eyes, that's all that matters.
    �
  • Apr 19, 2016
    aronth5
    As this thread goes back and forth I'm just going to wait and wonder how they will change the opening.
    As Elon said "we should be able to increase the opening width and height". Any guesses on how they will do that?
    �
  • Apr 19, 2016
    diamond.g
    Would a thinner gasket help? How was the hinge system for the trunk opening (I didn't see a good pic of it)?
    �
  • Apr 19, 2016
    p-f-g
    He also said that it "won't be a hatchback" and to my understanding it means that it will be a station wagon! :D
    �
  • Apr 19, 2016
    Laserbrain
    A station wagon Model 3 would not be a new model. It is just a variation of the same car. it is more like an option - like the Model S with or without panorama roof. It is 99% the same car with just some minor differences in the body work.

    No idea. It could also be 26.4% + 15.3% + 58.3% = 100%.

    In my eyes the Model X is a sports minivan.
    �
  • Apr 19, 2016
    diamond.g
    But that isn't quite how they position them when looking at BMW. Yes it is a different trim level, but the body changes are way noticeable, BMW even says they lengthen the vehicle to accommodate a lift back or the hatch (which is longer than the other two).
    �
  • Apr 19, 2016
    ecarfan
    There is no clear line between what is a hatchback/wagon ("estate")/CUV/SUV/minivan. The proliferation of passenger vehicle types over the past few decades has been remarkable. Compared to when I started driving in the 70's, when it was a simple matter to determine if a vehicle was a sedan or a wagon or a van, for example, today there is a bewildering variety of passenger car body types.

    Some of the intense discussion in this thread is generated by differing opinions on what is an SUV vs. a CUV vs. a station wagon (estate) vs. a hatchback.
    �
  • Apr 19, 2016
    yesup
    This "variation" is not trivial at all. It would require a redesign of the structural steel frame - which is major. Almost anything rear of B pillar would be new - much much more than "1%" as you suggested.
    That's why there is no chance of hatch back or wagon in the near future.
    �
  • Apr 19, 2016
    sebxx
    I had an A5 coupe, the trunk isn't upmarket in any way. I prefered the Sportback version and headroom wasn't even as ridiculous as people say about liftback...
    Model3 seems to be about the same size (and price)

    But in Europe large cars aren't popular (because of their size, not just the price)

    love those ideas!

    earlier it was said Wagons are 1.4% in the US...
    How much was EV market when Tesla decided to consider a modelS ? (not even revealed, then the backlog too...)

    take my money! .... wait he already did

    couldn't agree more.

    When some wish for better opening (hatch), we get told get a SUV...
    Those who want headroom in the back, why isn't minivan suitable for you?
    �
  • Apr 19, 2016
    sebxx
    agree with bgarcia, it's Marketing stuff: ModelX is a ModelS wagon, just like Audi Q7 is a jacked up wagon too....
    �
  • Apr 19, 2016
    yesup
    Does Tesla make a minivan?
    Basically, it boils down to this, other than the Roadster, Tesla has Model S, X, 3 and Y in the foreseeable future.

    And we know that there is no hatch back or wagon version for Model 3.
    So either you accept Model 3 as a sedan, or if you need more utility, then you may have to consider Model Y.
    And if you insist on a hatch back or wagon but not a SUV, then Tesla won't be able to provide what you need.
    �
  • Apr 19, 2016
    aronth5
    So everyone is dodging the question on how they will make the opening wider and taller per Elon's tweet with the sedan previewed.
    �
  • Apr 19, 2016
    yesup
    They can lower the bumper and the floor of the trunk. As for the width, they can make it wider by changing the trunk cover and tail light section design.
    One of the test car driver mentioned that some of the prototype cars have testing equipment in the trunk, and the production car trunk is a bit bigger.
    �
  • Apr 19, 2016
    ZAKEEUS
    It really is that simple, but this dead horse will continue to recieve its beating.
    �
  • Apr 19, 2016
    sebxx
    Tesla doesnt have a minivan, but they have modelX if you need headroom.
    Model 3 is aiming at a global market success, right? so it has to be as close as one-size-fit-all... not just the US market.

    and of course, sales number will tell.. maybe there will be 10 sold in Europe (out of thousands reservations)
    �
  • Apr 19, 2016
    Zoomit
    Nope, you're ignoring the other vehicle that will be made on the same platform, the hatchbacky thing with an extra 3cm of ground clearance, the Model Y. These 2 vehicles are aimed at the broadest segments of the Tesla target market. They want to split the market two ways, not one-size-fits-all.
    �
  • Apr 20, 2016
    Garlan Garner
    I suppose Elon can get his surfboard inside of a non-hatchback.
    �
  • Apr 20, 2016
    doublejj
    Hawthorn is home of "The Beach Boys"...:D
    �
  • Apr 25, 2016
    DQ10
    I'm going for the trailer hitch and bike rack.
    �
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