Mar 2, 2015
commasign Just noticed that Twin Charger option has been removed from the design studio although it's still described in the online brochure. Also, EPA ratings for the 85D and P85D are now official (no longer stated as pending confirmation). Also gone is the statement about 21" wheels resulting in 3% less range (there's still a sentence in the fine print section apparently referring to the blog post or range calculator, but without a functioning link at the moment).�
Mar 2, 2015
Matias That's strange.
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They still advertise dual chargers here http://www.teslamotors.com/en_EU/charging#/highpower�
Mar 2, 2015
Cosmacelf The dual chargers are still talked about on the Model S charging page. Must be a mistake.�
Mar 2, 2015
Matias It's also removed from EU site, so I don't think it is mistake..�
Mar 2, 2015
Panu Tesla site is not responding. Maybe they are doing some changes.�
Mar 2, 2015
RobStark Dual chargers are now standard?�
Mar 2, 2015
Panu Now it's responding. It says the car comes with 11kW charger and dual charger option is not there. Strange, I cannot think of any other reason for removing it but the one you said.�
Mar 2, 2015
mindsweeper Can confirm it's gone from the Norwegian site too. Same with the Security Package.�
Mar 2, 2015
Matias As many have stated, they still advertise High Power Wall Connector with dual chargers.... I sure hope they will make duall chargers default to all new cars.�
Mar 2, 2015
widodh Or they developed a new charger which does 22kW by default and they no longer need a new charger?
Or... It's just a mistake from the web team.�
Mar 2, 2015
Fanatic The choices for adapters, chargers and are no longer available in Swedish store. The next Gen seats are available for all cars now.�
Mar 2, 2015
spentan Does seem to be gone from usa Site too�
Mar 2, 2015
jerry33 Unless twin chargers are now standard, this has to be a mistake. It won't be the first one on the website.�
Mar 2, 2015
ArtInCT Indeed some changes.... noticed that the USA base price for the 60 went down from $74,570 to $71,070 and the S85 went down from $82,570 to $81,070 according to my old notes. Also the Next Gen seats appear to be order able for all models, not just the P85D.�
Mar 2, 2015
robby Metallic paint increased from $750 to $1000.�
Mar 2, 2015
iadbound Metallic paint was $750. Multi-coat red and the pearl white are $1,500.
Carbon fiber decor is now $1000. Other trim options now $750. Piano black is still no charge.
Tech package doesn't say anything about navigation or free map updates. [Looks like Nav with the map updates is listed as standard equipment now.].
Winter wheel packages are gone too. The wheels are still available in the accessories area.
Next gen seats are $3,500 (I thought they were $2,500 originally).
Wall connector is gone too along with the dual charger.�
Mar 2, 2015
mindsweeper According to Norwegian Tesla Forum, Tesla has confirmed the discontinuation of Dual Charger.�
Mar 2, 2015
widodh Ok, right. So what does that mean. Back to 11kW for all new cars? That's slow!�
Mar 2, 2015
taurusking This is weird...Did they come up with new charger or dual charger is a standard option now?�
Mar 2, 2015
iadbound The specification page continues to read as if a single charger is standard, but a second charger is available. However, it is unclear whether Tesla is still tinkering.
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I don't see any changes in the base prices with no options for the US site.�
Mar 2, 2015
stevenberry54 iadbound -- Given you have Dual Charger and Wall Connector coming this month... is that still the plan? You should ask them for some more information.�
Mar 2, 2015
iadbound I already have the wall connector -- so no problem there.
As for the dual chargers, my car already completed production on Friday. Given this just went up, I doubt the changes will take place for another month or two since quoted delivery time is out to May now for an 85. In other words, I think I'm fine, but will obviously check at delivery.�
Mar 2, 2015
LakeForest SPECULATION: this is related to the Tesla home battery being able to supercharge�
Mar 2, 2015
Chris TX I wonder if this is the update that Elon was hinting at. I wonder if all cars will get a dual charger retrofit, since there are so many HPWC around at destination places.�
Mar 2, 2015
eepic This popped up my mind too, *wild speculation* they decided to put a new set of power electronics that will play nice with home battery system and *wilder speculation* allow power feed the other way. And they're slipping the hardware in ahead like the autopilot hw.�
Mar 2, 2015
FredTMC i doubt it. The home battery is a 10kwh battery. Beta program version. Wouldn't surprise me if the official version is also 10kwh.�
Mar 2, 2015
apacheguy a) that would be an enormous undertaking to implement and lots of service time
b) what about folks who paid for twin chargers and now Tesla says they are a free retrofit
IMO, unlikely to happen.�
Mar 2, 2015
bonaire I doubt that a 10kWh (or larger) battery will expend its charge at a 10C rate to hit 100 KW of output. Now, if your home battery is 100 kWh - maybe there is something that can be done with DC-DC charging. It makes little sense to charge up a large battery to them recharge another battery unless you are trying to charge with late-night time of use kWhs stored at .05 from the grid and it is mid-day and your time of use rate is .25 "right now".
A 10 kWh battery isn't interesting to me, actually. I would want something like 30 kWh. My solar rig outside could work well with up to 50 kWh since it is over 8 KW. I have seen it output over 55 kWh per day. While I do not want to go off the grid, I do want to see what kind of efficiency such a home battery offers. I don't need it, and don't really want it. Just interested in what it will be.�
Mar 2, 2015
Thumper It makes sense to me to not have the dual chargers. There are so few 80 amp chargers available. Even Tesla destination chargers are often on 50 amp circuits. It would be more effective for most people to put the extra money into a Chademo or combo adapter (when available) instead of dual chargers. Still wouldn't hurt to have the option. Maybe Tesla needs the physical space for some new feature.�
Mar 2, 2015
FredTMC Tesla just mentioned on CNBC by Steve Levine. Author of book on Battery technology.�
Mar 2, 2015
techmaven I just spoke to Tesla sales (in CA). They have decided to provide the HPWC and the dual chargers only as add-on accessories. They are still very much available, just on the accessories page instead of with the car.�
Mar 2, 2015
tga Dual charger with installation shows as $2000 on the accessories page:
Tesla Gear Shop Dual Charger with Installation
Does anyone remember the prior pricing? Wasn't it $2000 ordered with the car and $3500 after the fact?�
Mar 2, 2015
iadbound The dual chargers are a nice option. The installation of 80 amp capable Wall Connectors at destinations compliments the chargers nicely. In addition, I like having it at home too. Just needed it on Friday for example. If Tesla bounces the dual charger option, that may put a damper on Wall Connector installations at commercial facilities, which would be step backwards in my opinion. I guess we'll see shortly if this is a permanent change.
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It was $1,500 with the car and $3,600 after the fact. They must have just changed it, because it was $3,600 earlier this morning.�
Mar 2, 2015
jgs It was $1500 ordered (I know for sure because it's on the configuration sheet for my not-yet-delivered car) and $3500 after the fact. Dropping it to $2000 as an add-on makes me almost regret having ordered it -- $2000 extra for a later add-on was punitive. $500 extra would have been OK.�
Mar 2, 2015
rypalmer It makes no sense at all to me actually. Why would they sell a car where their only non-mobile charger can provide twice the current their car can handle? The installation cost for the 2nd charger was not insignificant. It seemed the best time to install it was when the car was being built, so this change of heart makes no sense to me.�
Mar 2, 2015
tga Confirmed. archive.org shows adding the second charger to a one charger car was $3600 prior to the change:
Shop Tesla Gear Dual Charger with Installation�
Mar 2, 2015
Matias My car with dual chargers is in production queue. Estimated delivery late May. Luckily it still shows dual chargers (1250 euros, vat 0%). It doesn't make any sense, that in the future it could only be retrofit.�
Mar 2, 2015
Nevek I'd guess they pushed this out to the service centers as part of delivery for those that want it. One less thing to deal with in manufacturing.�
Mar 2, 2015
Panu My guess is that they wanted to make the Order page simpler and that way maybe get more orders. Many people (including me) did not fully understand what dual chargers mean.
EDIT: What Nevek is saying above is also a valid point. Maybe they can produce cars fasters this way.�
Mar 2, 2015
jgs It is true that my salesperson was pretty aggressive in discouraging me from ordering the dual chargers. This was back in November. I don't know if it was guidance from corporate to downplay the dual chargers, or just his personal initiative, but if the option has been selling poorly (for whatever reason) it would be consistent with Tesla's other streamlining moves to take it off the design studio page.�
Mar 2, 2015
MartinAustin Either way, they've removed the only way to get the 2nd charger for $1500 (i.e assembly line installation during manufacture), which is what was available last week. Now you have to pay $2000 for it.
Also the 5 "metallic" paint colours have gone up from $750 to $1000.
So, slight price increases. Hasn't been the first time!
I wonder if the 2nd charger will only get installed at the SC when it is delivered there for you? Seems like unnecessarily pushing work out to the SCs.
This is part of a configurator streamlining process that will make sense when the Model X configurator comes online. There's no need to include the HPWC on the car configurator, since it's not part of the car and works for both S & X.
Worth pointing out that the HPWC isn't a charger, it's just a power plug for the 80A that you provide at your home. Chargers are inside the car.�
Mar 2, 2015
ArtInCT I suspect that the dual charger option removal is yet another "simplification" to streamline the production process (although adding next gen seats to all models probably complicates things more). I recall overhearing quite a few time consuming conversations regarding the dual charger while I was at the Tesla Store. The explanation of the dual charger, the HPWC and the Supercharger appeared to bend a few minds who wanted it simple. If we can still get it then that is good via the SC add on route.�
Mar 2, 2015
MartinAustin True.
I was also discouraged from ordering it by my TM specialist. But... I wanted the shortest possible charging times! I've never regretted spending the money on the 2nd charger, HPWC and extra wiring for my house.�
Mar 2, 2015
jkirkebo That doesn't make sense either. The Service Centers in Norway are all swamped, the waiting time for an appointment have now reached 5 months. Giving them yet more to do doesn't seem like a good option.�
Mar 2, 2015
jgs I ended up disregarding him and ordering it anyway, mostly as future-proofing (I did not wire my garage for 80A charging). I anticipated more HPWC destination chargers, and that does seem to be coming true, even in the interval between November and now. One hand, at an increment of only $500 over the factory price I've locked in, I likely would have skipped the dual option knowing I could fit it later. Other hand, I did lock in the lower price and I'm not crying about that.
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But it comes out of someone else's budget! (Joke! I think. At least, one hopes Tesla isn't run like that. Yet.)�
Mar 2, 2015
iadbound If dual chargers were not a particularly popular option, Tesla has only itself to blame. Indeed, Tesla seemed challenged to explain the benefits of dual chargers/wall connectors vis-a-vis the single charger. For that matter, I'm still surprised at how many people are confused by dual chargers and superchargers.
On another note, I'm surprised that there isn't more reaction to Navigation now being standard, but without a corresponding drop in the Tech package price.
Also, no reaction to the increase in interior trim costs?�
Mar 2, 2015
MartinAustin One is AC charging and the other is DC charging... the Model S can do both, but I agree with you, they don't explain it very well.�
Mar 2, 2015
ArtInCT Yes well my Obeche Wood Decor went up $100 and the metallic paint (grey) went up $250. And in essence, the 2nd charger went up $500 (as an SC Accessory) for a total of $850 price increase for my future configuration. I wonder if there will be a TM Blog soon to discuss the change in the optional Second Charger?�
Mar 2, 2015
RiverBrick Is there any chance this could be a supply issue?�
Mar 2, 2015
liuping Maybe they are switching to a new charger that can do 20kW charging and the "upgrade" is just a software switch or very minor HW change, like changing jumpers?
That seem unlikely, but not entirely so.�
Mar 2, 2015
ecarfan Website/Design Studio Update - Twin Chargers no longer available
For my late 2013 S85 I got dual chargers and the HPWC and I'm glad I did (I put in a new 100A circuit for it so I get the full 80A). I like the faster charging rate at home and the possibility of getting it at some destinations.
I can understand why Tesla moved the Dual Charger option off the config page and into the Accessories section along with he HPWC since it is more of a nice to have "accessory" and not a fundamental part of the car.
Many people are confused about the use of the second charger and why it can be useful, and probably some Tesla salespeople could do a better job of explaining it.�
Mar 2, 2015
JST Interesting. After a bit more than a year, I still haven't been in a situation where I needed/could have used 80A charging. But with the price drop to only 2K, it's an accessory I might actually want to put in, particularly since the price drop on the HPWC led me to install one of those in January.
I don't understand the logic of not offering it on new builds, though. That's just odd, particularly since they probably make nearly as much on a 1500 on the line install as they would on a 2K accessory purchase, once you factor in logistics and so on.�
Mar 2, 2015
Zythryn Speed of production.
Eliminating a low production option and moving it into the service centers allows for streamlining the production route.
The big question is how common or uncommon of a selection is it?�
Mar 2, 2015
fredag Not possible to order new cars with dual chargers anymore?
Looks like it isn't possible to order new cars with dual chargers anymore.
From a European point of view, this is disappointing, as 22kW AC charging stations are quite common here. While I don't use 22kW AC charging at home, I've used it quite often on trips. I've been REALLY happy with having this option.
For European cars, I'd rather advise Tesla to make dual chargers the default option. Having dual chargers makes for a much better experience on trips.
Also, with single chargers, you only get slooow 3.6kW (16A) when charging at 7.6kW (32A single phase) type2 outlets.�
Mar 2, 2015
FlasherZ It seems that Tesla is moving the second charger install to service center installation only; suspicion is that it streamlines the factory flow and allows for those who want it to get it at delivery time. Reportedly the cost went down from $3,600 to $2,000 for service-center installation, a bit more expensive than the original factory-installed price.
Some posts here as well, and I think another thread was called out too:
Supercharger or Mini Supercharger at home ?�
Mar 2, 2015
markb1 Dual chargers are nice to have, but I haven't really taken advantage of mine since the first six months of owning the car, when superchargers were rare. 40A has been perfectly fine for home charging, and I'm pretty sure it would still be fine if I had an 85. I think the dual charger option is just becoming less and less useful, and selling that option must not be making Tesla much profit.
If charging away from home is important, and superchargers are not sufficient, you'll get more bang for your buck with the CHAdeMO adapter than the dual chargers.�
Mar 2, 2015
fredag Tesla is nearly doubling the price of getting the dual charger. Not cool.
Here in Norway, there's a 3-4 month wait for service appointments here. Having to wait 4 months for a dual charger on a new Tesla will be annoying. It will also add more work to already overloaded service centres in Norway.
Having to wait four hours longer than necessary to charge the car while on a road trip outside supercharged areas also isn't providing customers with the best possible user experience.�
Mar 2, 2015
RiverBrick
It depends where you live. For example, in many places in Canada there's no CHAdeMO, but many Suncountry (Clipper Creek) 70A-80A stations. What happens at a hotel when two Model S arrive at 8 pm and need to recharge by 10 am the following day? With dual chargers, there's no problem servicing both vehicles with a sole 80A unit. However, with a 40A limit one car might need the station for 11 hours (service will usually be at only ~200V).�
Mar 2, 2015
Saghost I don't know about other markets, but in the US market it's only a ~33% increase - what was a $1500 factory build option is now a $2000 service center option.
(It used to be possible to retrofit at service centers as a $3600 option, so it is now almost half the price for cars that don't currently have dual chargers.)
I don't know, but I suspect that one could arrange to have the second charger installed by the service center prior to delivery...
Walter�
Mar 2, 2015
fredag Adding dual chargers to an order used to cost 10 000 NOK.
Now it will be 18 000 NOK to retrofit.
That's an 80% increase.
At 10K NOK it was a no-brainer. At 18K NOK, 1000 USD more, well, many will think it's too expensive and not worth the extra cost. I think that's sad, because in my experiece the dual charger really adds to the usability of the car.�
Mar 2, 2015
AnOutsider Very curious to hear the official word on this. I have a HPWC and love that I can charge fairly quickly at home. Wonder what this means for the X?�
Mar 2, 2015
David99 I can't see how adding the second charger at the factory would be such a hassle that it made them get rid of the option. I highly doubt 'streamlining the manufacturing' is the reason.
There is a difference between the US and Europe in terms of public chargers. It's pretty hard to find any public chargers that goes beyond 10 kW. In Europe that's pretty common (3-phase 32 Amp plug). So in the US the dual charger has limited use, in Europe you definitely want it. At home you don't need fast charging. You have all night. But for public chargers, the faster, the better.�
Mar 2, 2015
Paul Carter This worked out well for me. I bought a showroom Model S and would have had to pay the old retro fit price to add it. Now that's It's 2k, I ordered mine this morning.�
Mar 2, 2015
46&2 Over here in Europe, almost everybody orders the dual chargers. Cannot be selling that poorly - but then, it is a different charging technique anyway...�
Mar 2, 2015
ElectricTundra I can imagine scenarios where someone puts on a bunch of miles during the day, comes home and needs a lot of charge in short order before heading out for the evening. Also folks like Doctors or other professionals who might need as much charge as possible at all times in case of emergencies.�
Mar 2, 2015
Coiled Summary of today's changes as I see them from the US. Feel free to correct or add to this list.
0. Base price is the same
1. Premium paint options price increase (metallic paints went from $750 to $1000, pearl white and MC red are still $1500)
2. Interior trim options price increase (carbon fiber went from $800 to $1000, wood trims increased to $750)
3. Next-gen seats now available for 60/85/85D, price unchanged ($3500)
4. Dual chargers option moved to accessories page, price increase from $1500 to $2000. After-market install price is down from $3600 to $2000.
5. HPWC option moved to accessories page, price unchanged
6. Description of tech package with autopilot changed, price unchanged
7. Winter/summer wheel packages moved to accessories page
Overall it looks like a minor price increase combined with an effort to simplify the order page and de-emphasize dual chargers. The total price of my 85D configuration went up ~$1,000.
Anything else I missed?�
Mar 2, 2015
Hank42 I disagree - I guess it depends on driving habits etc. I've found myself in a pinch from time to time where I needed a quick hit to get somewhere I was not planning for. Halving my charge time while at home for situations like this is a good thing!
�
Mar 2, 2015
iadbound Pearl white and MC red price has not changed. It was $1,500 before.
Wood trim options increased to $750.�
Mar 2, 2015
morbot Good summary. I also noticed the dual charger price drop. I hope the changes don't mean they're going to move away from supporting dual chargers.
I bought a single charger as my current home lacks the bandwidth to kick the juice up high enough... but its an area I had hoped/planned to upgrade the car some day.�
Mar 2, 2015
commasign My guess is next they'll combine the premium interior and cold weather packages.�
Mar 2, 2015
fredag I used my dual charger one of the first days of getting my car 18 months ago, on a road trip through Denmark before superchargers were available. And I had good use for dual chargers only last week, when I drove from Oslo to Gothenburg airport to fly on a vacation, and used the free 22kW charger at the airport (100km from the last supercharger) to top up the battery before parking it for a week. Zoning out with news and twitter for an hour while charging at 22kW was ok really, but having to wait two hours would be plain annoying.
I'll believe in that mythical creature - the legendary Chademo adapter - when I hold it my own hands and have tried it a bit.It's been so long in the waiting, I almost still dismiss it as imaginary.
Chademo chargers are notoriously unreliable. In Norway at least, there are often queues of other EVs with smaller batteries who get kind of aggressive at Teslas blocking their charging station for more than 15 minutes. Chademo charging price is usually 2x that of AC charging. Chademo charging stations are way more expensive than 22kW type2 charging outlets, and I don't think you'll ever find a small roadside restaurant in the mountains which will invest in a chademo charger, while some do invest in 22kW type charging outlets to attract Tesla owners. And for some common chademo chargers, you only seem to get 20kW anyway, as Tesla has throttled down the amps on certain brands of chademo chargers which can't cope with 45-50kW sustained throughput.�
Mar 2, 2015
tga Hey mods...
Can we get a thread title update? Maybe change "Twin Chargers no longer available" to "Twin Chargers now a service center installed option only" or something like that.
All indications are that dual chargers are still available, just not from the factory. "No longer available" is incorrect, misleading, and panic-inducing. :scared:�
Mar 2, 2015
jvonbokel FWIW, this page still lists "Onboard maps and navigation with free updates for 7 years" as part of the Tech Package under "Specs".
Model S | Tesla Motors
However, my suspicion is that this has now become standard, and the design studio was updated while this page is still lagging behind.
Another couple small changes I noticed, but could have been made Oct 2014:
LED fog lamps are once again part of the Tech Package
"Power folding, heated side mirrors with memory" - Previously, it was "Memory seats, mirrors, and driver profile", which implies that memory seats and driver profiles are now standard. Seems odd that mirror memory would be singled out as a tech package upgrade though. Perhaps this is an error.�
Mar 2, 2015
Yggdrasill Unless this is some part of a strategy to introduce a new better charger in a short amount of time, I think Tesla made a mistake in removing the dual chargers as an option in Europe. That extra 8000 NOK/1000 USD will be a bitter pill to swallow, for many people, and as been said, the service centers are swamped.
I think Tesla would have been better off including it as standard and then raising the base price by $1.500 (but not by a huge margin). Personally, I wouldn't get the dual chargers if I were buying a Tesla tomorrow, but there are many people who need them. Basically, I think it was fine the way it was.�
Mar 2, 2015
mgboyes Unless something has changed recently (and it might have) then all EU cars are built with dual chargers in them anyway. So when you ask the service centre to "install" it they'll just be making a software update to the car anyway. You may not even need to visit.
(well, UK cars are certainly built this way - I just assumed this was true of all cars with 3 phase chargers)�
Mar 2, 2015
jerry33 My guess is that the speeding up in production is not the physical assembly, but the programming time that it takes to tell the car that it has a second charger.�
Mar 2, 2015
ItsNotAboutTheMoney Based on JB Straubel's storage keynote, Tesla uses C/2, so a 10kWh battery would be 5kW.
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No. I just exoect that Supercharger coverage and the CHAdeMO adapter are leading to lower take, along with a regional pattern, so they feel that it's better to move it to the service center.�
Mar 2, 2015
Twiglett When did the Dual Charger option disappear?
I could have sworn there was an option in design studio to select dual chargers.
Have they gone or am I just imagining that they even existed in the design studio?
All other references to them still appear on the site.�
Mar 2, 2015
TexasEV It was $1500 ordered with the car. So new orders pay more, but it's a nice price drop for those of us who wanted to retrofit but thought it was too expensive. Lots of buyers in 2013 were talked out of ordering the car with dual chargers if we weren't installing HPWC at home-- this was before the destination charging program and Clipper Creek high amp level 2's became more common.
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Only if there is a Chademo station near where you want to charge. That's not true in most of the country, and high amp level 2 chargers (HPWC or Clipper Creek) cost less than 1/10 of what a Chademo station costs to install.�
Mar 2, 2015
TexasEV deleted after threads merged�
Mar 2, 2015
Canuck I don't know about that. Tesla is giving away HPWC's to businesses that install them, and that has really been taken advantage of a lot lately. I just noticed a couple installed near me, and the Supercharger map is now showing them with a smaller red circle and lightening bolt. If you travel with the car and have dual chargers, these seem to be more available than CHAdeMO's and they are likely to increase at a faster rate than CHAdeMO's:
Find Us | Tesla Motors
You do need to make sure you can use them, since many require that you are a guest of the business before you can use them.�
Mar 2, 2015
Nevek My SWAG is that a new charging option will be unveiled in the next month or so. Totally unsubstantiated guess based only on Tesla watching for a year or so (which many can best by multi-years, so weigh-in).�
Mar 2, 2015
Benjamin Brooks Yesterday�
Mar 2, 2015
andrewket This was my first thought as well. I had dual chargers in my P85+, and now in P85D. It is used regularly, when I have to charge >40A to squeeze into my time of day "super off peak" window which is 4 hours long. I will want to the same for the X we have on order, and it would be annoying to have to 1/ Pay more for it 2/ Have it installed at the SC. Oh well.�
Mar 2, 2015
Drucifer You missed the part of me being aggravated that I am unable to get a Brown Metallic at all, and that the configuration I was planning on ordering in 3 months is going to be more that it was previously. I may go used at this point and get the Brown paint and give up on the autopilot. This is kind of like seeing your investments take a hit shortly before you were going to sell out of a position.
At least there is this:
Tesla Gear Shop Premium Rear Console�
Mar 2, 2015
breser Well compared to my October order of my 85D the identical configuration today would be $1750 more. $1000 of that comes from the D increase of $1000 back in early November. $250 from paint cost increase and $500 from the dual chargers increase. Kinda surprised how Tesla keeps raising the price after Elon said on the Q4 2014 Earnings Conference Call that he thought the car was already expensive enough.
However, I do think this is them trying to accelerate production. If they can push dual chargers to service centers and it isn't super hard for them to install then it can save time there. If the extra $250 cost on the paint encourages more people to order black or white then maybe they can speed up production.
Given that this is now the 2nd paint change it just reinforces my opinion that paint remains a significant production constraint for Tesla.�
Mar 2, 2015
markwj My concern is public chargers for EU/HK/AU spec cars with IEC62196-2 sockets. A single charger in the car would limit those to 16A, even at 32A single phase public charging stations. By steering people away from dual chargers at order time (it is not even listed now), they are gonna get a lot of questions raised after delivery.�
Mar 3, 2015
spotless This. In fact, the situation in the EU is so confusing that Tesla specifically advised me against ordering the dual chargers (I'm talking Jul'13 here), before realizing after delivery that I absolutely needed them if I wanted to charge single phase 32A. I consequently had them retrofitted to my car. I find this move so puzzling that I'm tempted to believe there's something hidden behind.�
Mar 3, 2015
Fanatic The dual chargers are now sold in the Tesla accessory page. You now have to get them installed after delivery at a service center (most likely to speed up the production process).�
Mar 3, 2015
Panu Updated list (Originally Posted by Coiled):
0. Base price is the same
1. Premium paint options price increase (metallic paints went from $750 to $1000, pearl white and MC red are still $1500)
2. Interior trim options price increase (carbon fiber went from $800 to $1000, wood trims increased to $750)
3. Next-gen seats now available for 60/85/85D, price unchanged ($3500)
4. Dual chargers option moved to accessories page, price increase from $1500 to $2000. After-market install price is down from $3600 to $2000.
5. HPWC option moved to accessories page, price unchanged
6. Description of tech package with autopilot changed: navigation is now standard, price unchanged
7. Winter/summer wheel packages moved to accessories page
8. Security package is no longer available
I added "navigation is now standard" and 8. I believe security package was not very popular, too many stories about alarm going off when someone walks by.�
Mar 3, 2015
Stefandv My ordered S 85 does have a base price increase. Differences in BELGIUM:
- base price from 78.600 EURO towards 82.440 EURO.
- paint from 750 EUR towards 1.050 EUR
- Carbon fiber from 800 EUR towards 1.050 EUR
- Tech Package from 4.200 EUR towards 4.400
- Twin charger option not available, not clear if it is now included as a standard
- security package gone (not clear if this now included standard)�
Mar 3, 2015
Silverbird No more option for duo charger
I can't find this option in the design studio. What is happening?�
Mar 3, 2015
andydoty It appears as though the cars are coming with dual chargers standard. Now sure of this.�
Mar 3, 2015
mgboyes This is fascinating. I'd always assumed that the situation was the same across the EU but perhaps it is not.
In the UK all Model S cars are built with dual chargers installed whether they were ordered that way or not (Tesla will not admit this, but it's true).
If you only ordered single charger then for 3 phase charging there's a software-imposed 16A per phase limit (i.e. 11kW) but both chargers are present in the car and are used.
The result is that all UK Model S can charge at 32A single phase, whether or not it was specified with single or dual chargers. UK owners who have asked to upgrade to dual chargers after delivery (to get 22kW 3 phase charging) have been billed �1250 (the design studio price) and upgraded OTA with no service centre visit required.
Is this not the case in other European countries?�
Mar 3, 2015
NHEV I was at Tesla in Natick, MA yesterday. They told me as of that morning, the dual chargers are no longer going to be done by the factory. It will be an add on at the SC upon delivery. $2,000 I think.�
Mar 3, 2015
smac
That's very interesting!
Physically my car (UK) had dual chargers shipped from the factory as I believe all UK cars did. Tesla had recommended to order holders to use Chargemaster to install a home Type 2 32A single phase EVSE unit (we have a grant system for this, so we don't get a UMC, just a Type2 cable)
For the first 2 weeks of ownership, I could charge at 32A x 3phase x 240v i.e. 22kW on public points. People started noticing on the forums some of us had received something they'd paid for, and Tesla issued an OTA software update which capped the 3 phase charging to 16A, but maintained the ability to charge at 32A on a single phase supply (7kW). I also know some paid the factory price to remove the cap.
Unless there is a new design of charger that can handle 32A single phase, they will have to roll out duals to everyone in single phase countries, as 16A single phase just isn't enough to charge the car overnight (especially in our 7 hour "Economy 7" window).
I was probably the first to get v6.1 here in the UK, and as soon as I did, I started getting really wacky charging performance on 3 phase supplies (as did one other UK user, who had also only paid for "single chargers"). Now either both of us had a hardware malfunction (the SC replaced both chargers in my car before doing a firmware patch), or this artificial limit placed on the cars wasn't tested in the QA.�
Mar 3, 2015
Panu The EUR prices increased on Jan-24. You were lucky enough to order on the same day as I, week before the price increase.�
Mar 3, 2015
rlang59
The second charger add on is now only 2k in the accessories store:
Tesla Gear Shop Dual Charger with Installation�
Mar 3, 2015
ZBB FWIW, I'm one of those that didn't order the dual charger and don't personally have a need for it. There used to be only a 1 or 2 high amp J1772 public chargers in the state, but there are now multiple HPWCs avail around AZ because of Tesla's destination charging program. I still feel the same way and don't plan on getting a 2nd charger installed -- I'm fine with charging at 10kW at home and using Superchargers on road trips. In 21 months, I've had one time where I could have taken advantage of dual chargers -- but there is now 2 Superchargers near that location.
As for the price change, the $500 increase from the factory option is exactly the same decrease from the original price of the HPWC. So if I were to add the 2nd charger and buy the HPWC now, it would be exactly the same as the original options when I ordered - $3250�
Mar 3, 2015
RiverBrick Wasn't it rumored that there was some kind of glitch with single-charger cars in the UK and the quick fix was install the dual chargers (and partially disable the functionality of the 2nd charger) ?�
Mar 3, 2015
smac It's not just a rumour, they were definitely shipped like that from the factory. (I have a warranty replacement statement for 2 chargers p/n 1014963-00-G)
Not so much a glitch rather a work around to a technical problem. The charger shipped with the original cars could only handle 240v single phase at 16A. In the UK houses only have single phase supplies. This would have capped the rate to 3.6kW, so not enough to complete a charge overnight.
By using two chargers the load could be shared, giving a more usable 7.2kW charge rate, and the ability to do a full charge overnight.�
Mar 3, 2015
snellenr I made the same decision when I purchased a year ago (when it was the 2nd charger + HPWC bundle for $1500). With daily driving that didn't need more than the existing 20-amp 240V circuit coupled with large costs to upgrade the wiring and the lack of high-power AC charging options around here (Texas), it didn't make much sense to me. I assumed that the option to add the module would still be available in the future, possibly at a lower cost as production volume ramped up and the electronics got cheaper (as they always do) -- it's nice to see that's the case.
Now, if they were to re-architect the two modules so that they provided a redundant set rather tha a master/secondary, I'd order it in a New York minute.�
Mar 3, 2015
flankspeed8 Is it possible that as a couple have claimed that all cars will be shipped with dual charger standard and that the $2k fee will be strictly for OTA s/w update similar to Super Charging on the S60? Would make more sense IMO. Have heard about long wait times at SC's for basic repairs, can't imagine that it makes sense to place this strictly at the local SC especially until they get the network built out more. There is a large part of the population that is over 250 miles from the nearest center.�
Mar 3, 2015
gvands I don't know how it works elsewhere but overhere in Belgium, it's a good thing the dual chargers and some other things are moved to the accesories pages because this way
they won't be added to the "total price with accesories plus taxes" this total price is what's being used to calculate how much we have to pay personally when we buy a car with
our company. (with the Tesla it's 4% of this total price we have to pay each year.) So if they do it this way, the dual chargers won't be included in the total price, reducing the total
cost for us. The same goes for the mid console.�
Mar 3, 2015
iadbound I doubt this. If it was $1,500 to have it installed at production and $3,600 to have it installed after production. Why would Tesla now install it at production and have the SC activate it for $2,000. Seems like a waste of resources to put extra chargers in the car when so many won't add it.�
Mar 3, 2015
Saghost Seems pretty unlikely to me. In the Supercharger case, the hardware involved is minimal - basically an extra set of contactors, and the $2k is the car's buy in to support the network.
The second charger is a significant piece of hardware that Tesla could easily use elsewhere, and there's no obvious usage for your 'upgrade fee.'
Wallet�
Mar 3, 2015
breser Not necessarily. It's possible that the $500 is subsidizing the hardware in the vehicles that don't pay for it. Assuming that $1500 is near cost of the extra charger (probably not) then every 3 charges sold at the new $2000 price pays for one in another vehicle. So if 75% of the vehicles have dual chargers then by charge $2000 to activate it they eliminate a configuration difference from production, making production more efficient and the buyers of dual chargers finance it. The actual cost of the charger is probably less than the $1500. So their real numbers are probably better than this.
The flipside of this is that if they charge $2000 for chargers on vehicles that don't have them they'll stimulate a lot of dual charger installs on those cars (and presumably there was a good reason they were charging $3600 for doing it aftermarket before). But that's probably a temporary issue since eventually that surge of demand will fall off.�
Mar 3, 2015
TexasEV @flankspeed8, No, it's clear on the web site charging page that the cars come with the single charger. The only way to get dual charger is service center install. The $2000 fee on the accessories page is for the dual charger with installation.
I wonder if the car production people and the destination charging program people are talking to each other. Dropping dual chargers from the options available with ordering the car will decrease the number of cars that have dual chargers, which will make HPWC installation on circuits >50A less compelling to destinations. It's clearly not to stimulate sales-- if you want to stimulate sales you make it easy to order it with the car along with dropping the price for cars already on the road not just the latter.�
Mar 3, 2015
Jaff This makes perfect sense to me.
The dual charger threads here and in the past, reveal that the second charger issue initiates a very polarizing debate... some feel it is a complete waste of money, others wouldn't consider ordering a car without it... one's opinion appears to be driven by the high amperage L2 charging infrastructure in their own region.
If Tesla moves the addition of the second charger to the Service Center's where dual chargers are prevalent (like in Canada / Europe for example), it does free up valuable time on the assembly line...
�
Mar 3, 2015
jvonbokel What is (or was) the security package?�
Mar 3, 2015
cynix It was a European-only package that provided a motion-activated car alarm running on an independent 12V battery.
When I enquired about getting it for my car, I was told that this package was offered in order to comply with EU regulations and is not available in other regions. I wonder now they can still comply with these regulations after removing this package from sale.�
Mar 3, 2015
smac Or more importantly how was the car compliant with the regulations, if like me, you didn't order it ?
I suspect the standard security system didn't meet "Thatcham Category 1" requirements, due to lack of battery backup, which are generally stipulated on insurance policies here in the UK.
My insurance company haven't batted an eyelid, and I'm not aware of anyone that has had cover refused on this basis, but some have been asked to add separate "GPS Trackers" to their cars which does make a bit of a mockery of the value the security pack.�
Mar 3, 2015
cynix I just assumed that "the regulation" only required them to offer it as an option. Of course, in reality it's probably an official-sounding excuse they made up for not letting me order it.�
Mar 3, 2015
smac True.
TBH I'm glad it's gone. It was actually a pretty negative thing to have as an option, when pretty much every other major manufacturer has had insurance approved alarms as standard for decades. Further detracting value I'm pretty sure the security pack wasn't Thatcham approved anyway.
So it was almost an admission on Tesla's part the car was under-equipped compared to rivals, and adding it gave virtually zero benefit as people tend to ignore alarms anyway, and you'd not get a discount on your insurance.
Here's the different levels. All of which must be certified and tested at the Thatcham test centre.
What is a Thatcham Category Car Alarm? | RAC
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Mar 3, 2015
fredag No. Not the case outside the UK, as far as I know.
At least not for the early Model S delivered to Europe 18 months ago.
I believe some Norwegians have upgraded from single chargers to dual, and the service centres had to physically add charger modules to their cars.
The Norwegian Tesla owner Laumb was in a dispute with Tesla because his car (one of the early European deliveries 18 months ago) couldn't charge at 7.6kW type2 outlets, despite the spec at the time he ordered said singe charger cars could.
If Tesla were to physically install dual chargers in all European cars, why not just make dual chargers the default for new orders? Why should activating dual chargers cost twice as much as before?�
Mar 3, 2015
smac Thanks for the clarification Fredag.
Out of interest, do you typically have 3 phase supplies at home in Norway?
Here it is a real rarity, and with our government grant system putting in Type-2 single phase 32A charge points at home we don't get the UMC with the car which I guess offsets some of the cost of shipping all UK cars with the physical dual hardware.�
Mar 3, 2015
LuckyLuke EU cars delivered on day one (like September 2013) have been able to charge 32A single phase when equipped with single charger. How? By using the blue UMC adapter. That blue adapter simply bridges the three phase pins of the UMC to the L pin on the blue adapter. Check the wiki here
Some French guy actually achieved 63A single phase (dual chargers), it's on these forums somewhere in the French section.
Being able to charge 32A single phase does not mean the car has dual chargers.
This is expected, since 1x32A on single charger equipped car will only work when the phase pins are bridged, so either create your own type2 cable/charger that can do this (like the French guy did, do not try this if you don't know what you're doing) or use the UMC with the blue adapter.�
Mar 3, 2015
smac Thanks LuckyLuke, makes sense.
Mgboyes and I were discussing this. (on another more UK specific forum)
We don't get UMCs in the UK. Regular blue "commando" sockets are inelligible for the UK grant scheme, so we pretty much all have Type-2 Sockets, and would have faced the same problem Laumb had.
The fixes available I guess are a "specially" wired type-2 cable or socket, some sort of additional contactor hardware onboard the car that could do the same job by sensing the inbound supply and bonding the input phases into the chargers onboard the car, or as it turns out just building the UK cars with dual chargers with the saving from not* supplying the UMC partially funding it.�
Mar 3, 2015
Yggdrasill Specially wired Type 2 charging stations have been the solution for many Tesla owners here in Norway. Like this one This was an issue initially when the Model S came to Norway, because the charging solution providers hadn't been informed that the Model S needed the extra wiring, but that was sorted out in the first few weeks. (This isn't an option for the *public* Type 2 charging points, though, because it's not in line with the Type 2 specification.)
Norway is a bit special. Almost everyone has three phase, but not 400V TN like the rest of Europe. Instead we have a lot of 230V IT. And the Model S charger can't use all three phases with this connection. You're stuck with 230V 32A single phase from a 230V 32A three phase connection. Newer homes as well as businesses usually have 400V TN, though. Basically all new transformers are 400V TN, but we have a lot of older transformers out there. You can't just upgrade them either, because that means you need to rewire all the homes connected to that transformer, which is extremely costly.�
Mar 3, 2015
smac I suspect this could have been the issue in the UK too. The grant initially had a list of a few eligible charge points, and none wired up outside spec. The intention of the grant wasn't to be car specific, and as UK government were picking up the bill I can see why they would be unwilling to allow proprietary points to be used.
Thanks, interesting, if only for my own personal curiosity�
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