Jan 14, 2016
Todd Burch In the 7.1 release notes, Tesla indicates that the car doesn't bias to the side of the lane as much when adjacent to curbs/barriers.
After hundreds of miles on 7.1 autopilot, not only do I find that there isn't an improvement, but it's even worse than 7.0.
Part of my commute involves crossing a 5 mile bridge. This bridge is divided with two wide lanes in each direction and with decent lane markings--so I usually have autopilot on the entire way across. It's straight as an arrow. Adjacent to each lane is a curb leading to a concrete barrier on each side. The barrier is not really close to the side of the lane--there's about a 2 foot space between the edge of the lane and the curb, minimum. Here's a picture of the bridge:
So anyway, when I'm driving on this bridge in the left lane, auto steering biases my car so far to the right side of the lane that it's extremely uncomfortable when there's traffic in the other lane. Not only that, but I frequently find that my right side mirror is actually extending over the lane marking, protroding into the adjacent lane! This isn't just an illusion or my perception. If you look at the toy car graphic, it shows the mirror over the lane marking, and I can also lean my head over to the right and look out the side mirror to see the actual painted centerline--my right mirror clearly extends beyond it! All this, and there's plenty of room to the left of the car in the lane--it's not a narrow lane at all (even though the focal length of the lens used for the image above makes it appear to be narrow).
The only change from 7.0 to 7.1 that I can see is that when passing a car, after it sees the car next to me for a second or so, the car gradually moves slightly to the left to allow a little more space. (It's too late by that time anyway). Then, after passing the car, it moves right back over to the uncomfortable position. And when I say I think 7.1 is worse, it's because when it does move back, it moves back further to the right than it did with 7.0.
This morning, while in stop and go traffic on the bridge, I was stopped with autopilot on. The car in front of me was pretty much centered in the lane, and my S was following him with about half of the S's car width extending beyond the right side of the car in front! WAYYY too much bias to the right.
I mentioned with 7.0 that this bothered me, because it's far more likely that the car to my right will creep over and sideswipe me than it is for that curb or barrier to jump out and hit my car. Moreover, being biased so close to the adjacent car gives very little time to react if autopilot decides to turn right slightly. I think this is among the highest dangers for collision with autopilot. With a curve, at least you know it's coming so you can anticipate that the steering may have issues. But with this bias, there have been cases where the tip of my mirror has passed without about 12-18 inches of the adjacent car. Too close.
At first I thought Tesla was biasing to the right to reduce the potential of a head-on collision from traffic coming the other way on an undivided road, but without a curb or central barrier, the car actually centers evenly in the lane, so just the opposite is what happens--so that can't be the reason.
For me, this is by far the #1 thing that gives me unease using autopilot. Not the TACC, or the lane keeping in general. IMHO those both work exceptionally well. But this lane bias is, I would say, beyond the point of being unsafe. The mirror should NOT be protroding into the adjacent lane.
Anyone else experiencing this? I hope Tesla removes the excessive bias in the next update. It gives me the heebie jeebies!
By the way: This doesn't just happen here. It happens everywhere there's a median with a curb or a concrete barrier adjacent to a lane.�
Jan 14, 2016
robert774 To my experience the car has remained well centered in most all cases in 7.0 and 7.1. The change I have noticed with 7.1 is far fewer minute steer corrections within a lane, especially a wider lane such as we have here in Houston. The minor adjustments left and right in a lane in 7.0 were annoying. I would suggest you need to have your camera or another sensor calibrated. This does not seem to be a normal experience.�
Jan 14, 2016
Todd Burch If there's no curb or barrier adjacent to the lane, the car is perfectly centered, which indicates that some sort of calibration is not the problem. Also, you can observe the car literally slide from the centered position to the right side of the lane when a curb/barrier starts next to the lane--plus it's mentioned in the release notes, so clearly it's an intentional behavior. Moreover, my car will park itself perfectly in the garage, even though I have to have "Allow Narrow Spaces" checked because there is about 4 inches max of clearance between the tip of my mirrors and my garage door opening when I park with the mirrors extended.�
Jan 14, 2016
rneugebauer Can you take a video, especially of the moment the curb/barrier starts and the car moves to the right? Could be an eye-opener for the tesla engineers!
Also, I believe Tesla can download data from the car and analyze what the car saw and did if you give them the exact time and place, I'm sure that would be helpful, too!�
Jan 14, 2016
wk057 I agree that this is a little crazier than it used to be in 7.0, and I don't particularly like it.
There is an option to disable "Ultrasonic Offset" completely in the autopilot dev settings... but I don't want it completely disabled since then I'm not sure if it would still move for a close vehicle or not. *shrugs*
Hopefully they fix it.�
Jan 14, 2016
S4WRXTTCS Just out of curiosity what does it do in the right lane?�
Jan 14, 2016
jlewisthe3rd This is difficult coding problem to solve, since the reaction is completely sensor based and not camera based the car cannot discern an adjacent car from a barrier or guard rail. Of course it feels unsafe that it strays too close to the right but if you "fix" this then you take away the car's ability to react when an actual car is that close in the adjacent lane. If there was a way to feed the camera data to the corresponding sensors then it could "identify" what is to the left or right and reduce the distance accordingly...if a car/truck stray FAR away, if not a car/truck stray medium distance away.�
Jan 14, 2016
wk057 It actually seems to make some pretty complex decisions on this already. Note the image I posted in my hacking thread:
Where it says "last line preference" there are a bunch of different values that pop up here. One of the more interesting ones suggests it interprets the yellow "curve ahead" type signs, which is neat. I've seen others like "Avoid Oncoming Lanes" and such too.
So, seems like they're at least working on it.�
Jan 15, 2016
David_Cary Interesting. I do think we need to have a good venue to discuss different AP topics to help crowd source tweaks.
Personally, 7.1 changed the lane bias for me in a good way. When it detects a yellow line (or oncoming traffic), it biases to the right. Makes perfect sense and was one of the major requests I had in my head. Perhaps 7.1 is thinking you have oncoming traffic based on the lines/wall?
I honestly think the time has come for an Autopilot category on the forum. I think we could have stickies with lane centering, exit issues, nag etc. Pictures and videos encouraged. I know we think Tesla is using logs to help with things but people should still have some input.
As an aside, I find it interesting that Tesla states this is for divided highways only but clearly allows it when the car knows the road isn't divided and not only that, just optimized lane position for undivided roads.�
Jan 15, 2016
Tinde I totally agree with Todd. After upgrading to 7.1 my car tends to keep very much to the right. So much that it would touch the snowbanks, forcing me to take the steering wheel. Especially this happens when locked to the car in front.�
Jan 15, 2016
Todd Burch Notice in the picture above that the line on the far left is painted yellow. Might be on to something where it biases much more strongly to the right when you're in the left lane because the line is yellow, and not so much in the right lane. So it might be seeing the yellow line AND the barrier and thinking that it's a solid line of oncoming traffic.
Either way though, the bias is still way too far. I'll try to get some video.
I have a dashcam so I'll see if I can get some video uploaded. Not sure how clear it will be on the dashcam, but it should be fairly evident.�
Jan 15, 2016
mobe I agree! Mine seems to be drawn to tractor trailer rigs that are in the right lane, so much so that if I don't intervene the right front sensor will go red. This behavior does not require a curb. Very unnerving. It actually seems to be drawn towards them.�
Jan 15, 2016
DFibRL8R You guys are making me appreciate my classic. Seriously, thanks for working out the kinks!�
Jan 15, 2016
RDoc When changing lanes, it often overshoots and winds up at the edge of the lane being changed into, right or left. I had it go so far to the left that the lane departure warning came on!�
Jan 15, 2016
Electricfan Do you have any friends nearby that own a Model S, so you could both drive over the bridge and see if both cars do the same thing?
I've driven over lots of bridges here in Houston and on the way east on I-10 to FL, and I've never had it bias so far that it put the mirror in the next lane. That sounds like something is not adjusted right with your AP system.�
Jan 15, 2016
liuping I have the opposite problem of AP driving too far to the left when in the left most lane, next to but not in, the carpool lane.
AP is driving so far to the left, that it drives over the raised dots and makes for a bumpy ride.
I think AP is not reading the line properly due to the white + double yellow pattern:
It seems to track the white line and drive over the right most yellow line.�
Jan 15, 2016
Vuvision I'm experiencing the same thing. Nerve wracking to see my car biasing toward the 18-wheeler then the alarm went off, this is dangerous. I also noticed my car pinging left & right between the lane marking, whereas the previous version 7.0 kept the car perfectly centered.�
Jan 15, 2016
JMG Just another agreement here. I thought it biased too much to the right both with 7.0 and with 7.1. There are a few times where I don't feel like i'm going to hit the car in the right lane, but enough to make them mad and serve away probably uttering, "What in the world is this guy doing? Get back in your lane!"
I've had it get so close to bridge barriers that the side collision graphics are almost red (darkest shade of orange).
The other day while completely on AP and driving on a road with zero shoulder (literally there is grass about 5 inches outside of the white line), it started to leave the pavement and I had to correct it back onto the road.
It's getting better, but still a ways from flawless.�
Jan 15, 2016
Kesler Agreed. This goes with carpool lanes too because there needs to be a little room for motorcycles�
Jan 17, 2016
JenniferQ Agree. Was in the two-lane HOV lane yesterday and both ways it was way too close to the right lane and my mirror was also over the line toward the car in the right lane. This seems strange because the release notes clearly stated as a goal to give more room to moving objects on the right than to stationary objects on the left. I have no fear of that wall jumping out to get me, but obviously AP does!�
Jan 17, 2016
RDoc I was out on a highway recently with some slush still on the road but the AP icon came on and the lane markers were solid on the display so I tried AP. What happened was that the car ping ponged from left to right in the lane, never leaving it, but never stabilizing. What really surprised me though was that the dashboard display accurately depicted what the car was doing, moving from side to side within the solid lane markers.
It appears again to me that the system that shows the lane markers and does lane departure warnings is separate from the AP system. This makes zero sense to me.�
Jan 17, 2016
Andyw2100 The following is not directed at RDoc alone. His post just really drove the point home for me, so I felt the need to post.
AP is an abbreviation for Auto Pilot. All of the Driver Assistance features are part of the Auto Pilot functionality.
In the post above, what you are referring to as AP is Autosteer Beta.
I think a lot of confusion about features, what they are supposed to do, what they can't do, etc. would be eliminated if we could all start referring to the features by their correct names.�
Jan 17, 2016
AWDtsla After going for a long drive today, I don't see any corrections to bias, or any evidence of bias. The car drives like a drunk. I thought it was going to hit a concrete barrier today. The ultrasonic next to the barrier was firing, and nothing else, no cars to the side. The sad part is I've never noticed the lane tracking being off, the car knows it's in a weird place in the lane, it knew the same next to the barrier.
I was "nagged" probably 3 times over 2.5 hours, with no real evidence that the car could not track lanes why being nagged.
It actually seemed to do the best on a 30 mph curvy road with a double yellow, it seemed to stay consistently center of lane, less drunk.�
Jan 17, 2016
Mark Z Using AP with Model X, I thought the vehicle wasn't centered, until...
I looked carefully out the left rear view mirror and out the right rear view mirror. (You can take a good look when the vehicle is on AP.)
Perfectly centered.
I have had to slightly redefine my forward windshield view of what perfectly centered is.
UPDATE: Works okay on normal sized lanes. Tried it today on a extra wide lane, and it pulled to the right line, not good.
I ended up driving without AP.�
Jan 17, 2016
AWDtsla I've tilted my right mirror down enough to see how far away the line is from the car to confirm where the car actually is, and it hasn't been that far off from where I thought.
Also, the scared drivers pulling way to the right after I pass them with AP on also confirm it.�
Jan 18, 2016
wk057 I can confirm that the virtual lane on the instrument cluster indeed comes from the autopilot hardware and is the same hardware making steering decisions. All the weirder that it still lets the car do things like bounce around and even go over the lane marking at times.�
Jan 18, 2016
Mark Z Going over the lane markers? I haven't had that problem. I would be concerned as well.
Remember, my limited experience is only with Model X and the 7.0 software with multiple lane freeways.
One more thought. The right rearview mirror is more curved, so IMHO, the distance may appear closer to the line.
If this is repeatable, why not have two people follow the OP in one vehicle. The passenger can video how close the vehicle is to the bridge.�
Jan 18, 2016
S4WRXTTCS What I find odd is before V7.1 I never had any real issue with lane biasing probably because it never really seemed to do lane biasing. It seemed to go for the middle and mostly tried to stay there unless it detected something on one side that was too close.
I used the lane-steering for thousands of miles with V7.0 without much issue except in the usual places (diving for exits, etc).
But, now with V7.1 there are definitely times where in the left lane that it biases way to much to the right. Even when trying to correct it the thing goes back. I don't think its every left lane. Just left lanes with certain types of lane markings on the left. Like on 405 on the left lane next to the HOV lane where it has a double stripe line. In the middle lane it stays nice and centered unless it has to move over because of a car being too close.
I don't have that many miles with it, but the 100 or so that I do have are noticeably worse because of weird lane biasing in the left lane. In some ways it's funny because I assumed I'd have issues with nagging, but the reality is the nagging isn't bad because I think they reduced the amount of steering torque required to make it go away. What I do have issues with is lane biasing.�
Jan 18, 2016
Cyberax It all looks like we're in some kind of a large A/B/C/D... experiment. Perhaps various cars are getting builds with slightly different settings to gather more data for Tesla.
So some of us get lots of nags and some of us get bad biasing behavior. FWIW, my friend's Tesla (P85D, NYC) on 7.1 has no problems with biases but lots of nags. I'm not upgrading mine from 7.0...�
Jan 18, 2016
David_Cary I'm starting to agree with Cyberax points.
Time for a Nag poll cross referenced with a lane bias poll.
For me there is improved lane bias on undivided roads. I don't drive in the left lane very often - or for more than a few seconds - so right lane bias isn't much of an issue for me.
For me there is an unequivocal new rule. If the left sided lane markings are double yellow, bias to the right. That wasn't there before 7.1. Certainly you left lane squatters (jk) who have HOV lanes to the left could be bothered by this new rule.�
Jan 18, 2016
ecarfan I think it more likely that everyone with 7.1 has the same software, but because they are driving on different roads at different times of day (different lighting conditions) with varying degrees of traffic around them they see different behavior. Even people driving the same roads are using different lanes at different times of day with varying amounts of cars around them.
As a scientist, I can tell you that you cannot describe that as an "A/B/C/D experiment" because there are far too many uncontrolled variables!�
Jan 18, 2016
roblab I feel that the car can't see the barrier. It can "feel" it with the side lidar (or sonar or whatever), the the AP camera needs to see painted lines. So it's looking for a line and feels this huge something next to it. We have narrow stone bridges here. The car feels them, but can't see them. The bridges look like a lot of human drivers couldn't tell where the walls were. Lots of work for body shops.
We have lots of dots for lines here, too. The car can't see dots, either.
When I see weak lane markings, dots, cones, barriers, etc., it's time to take over from the car.�
Jan 18, 2016
JenniferQ Agree.�
Jan 18, 2016
garygid Driving in freeway light traffic with 2.9.154, at first the lane centering in 7.1 seemed better,
smoother, and more gentle, with noticably less little jerks of the steering wheel.
Later, in very heavy slow traffic, a bus came alongside on the left, and my MS moved
too far to the right in my lane, enough to bother both me and the car traffic in the
lane on my right. The AutoSteering (AS) seemed to be overdoing moving the car
away from the "wall". All 4 lanes were perhaps a bit narrower than usual, due
to construction, or at least it seemed that way.
Getting off the freeway, in the leftmost of two exit only lanes, the AS swerved
abruptly to the left, heading into the narrow triangular area that contained lots of
crash barrels (probably filled with water?), and I had to quickly take
control to get back fully into the exit-only lane. My wife gasped, and
had a severe nether-pucker moment, I think, but she was glad that we lived.
Moral: All this is Beta unfinished and unpolished software, and subject to
making unexpected decisions at any time, and acting abruptly.
We all need to be on high alert, not half asleep, when using
any of the AP functions. The fact that the AP worked reliably many
times does not mean that it will the next time, since it is a computer,
it can have a "stroke" at any moment.
Please be extra careful.�
Jan 18, 2016
dhanson865 dots for lines like Botts Dots AP Guidance Added Under 7.1 ?
You may not have realized it if you were used to 7.0 but you can let the car steer in botts dots lines now.�
Jan 21, 2016
Todd Burch Right--in 7.0 the biasing was only when an obstruction was next-door.
I suspect when the video of the moron riding the two-lane, hilly, curvy road on autopilot that almost head-on'd himself into another car and then posted it saying that AUTOPILOT almost killed him (not that he almost killed himself), Tesla decided that whenever a yellow line is seen to the left of the car, it biases to the right side of the lane, obstructions or not.
I'm generally ok with this if we're talking a foot or so of bias. But the bias is way too extreme, and makes me and clearly others pretty uncomfortable to the point that we disengage autopilot.�
Jan 21, 2016
wk057 It definitely goes over the line. It even knows it goes over the line because the lane departure warning noise happens. It's weird. Happens mostly at lower speeds (<50 MPH). I reported it.�
Jan 21, 2016
brkaus Someone that knows more about the internals - would it be possible for Tesla to have a stable and latest AP track selectable by the user?
Is there enough space and/or architected such that it would work? I'm guessing no because of the distributed nature of the code across the hardware pieces.�
Jan 21, 2016
calisnow Okay so the obvious question is why has Tesla set up 7.1 this way - ie set it up so it overcompensates rather than biasing a "medium" amount? Enough of you are reporting this poor behavior (biasing so far it goes all the way over the lines into the next lane, or at least right up on them) that Tesla must have known what it does before they pushed it out, right?
And if so - what were they thinking? Were they rushed (ie whipped by Elon) to get an update to reign in the Youtube idiots, and thus simply unable to "smooth" the biasing behavior in time for the release - and then made a decision to simply push it out despite this overcompensating behavior that they knew would blow up the forums with complaints? And if so - do you presume they are now working on smoothing out the bias and intend to push it out in another update?
I've never worked in software development so trying to imagine what is going on in the heads of the autopilot team is a real puzzle.�
Jan 21, 2016
CHG-ON I find that mine biases so much to the right that I can't trust it in moderate curves to the left. It gets so close to the limit line that I always take over. It was better in 7.0 because it stuck to the middle of the lane. This is on undivided roads. I am hoping to experience freeway driving this weekend for the first time. But we are expecting torrential rains, and I won't use it then. So it might be a while before I can see how it works in that environment. However, I do find that it works much better in intersections (simple ones) and with left and right turn bump outs. Stays pretty much straight, where it did not with 7.0.�
Jan 22, 2016
calisnow Does it actually cross the limit line in those left hand turns on undivided roads? Maybe it's on purpose to stay far to the right - the logic being it's safer to stay as far away from oncoming traffic as possible.�
Jan 22, 2016
tezzla Maybe Elon is always driving in the slow lane?�
Jan 26, 2016
3mp_kwh Sorry if dual posting, but my experience with cars on right in 7.1 has been influenced by a couple of rightward drifts as cars come up from behind on the right. Particularly big cars/trucks (white seems more sensitive). It makes me wonder if the proximity sensors know only one value, as fed thru the car's AP processing, and don't account for the value's angle. When a car is behind, the distance seen by the sensor is greater than the cement wall to my left. In that case, I think it might try to equalize by moving toward the activated white sensor, cutting off the driver behind. Also, it is as if lane markings got "second billing" in 7.1's AP processing.
With no proximity alert on my right, I would say 7.1 does stay closer to the wall (which is desired). It's when right side proximity is active, that I start having problems on my right.
I'm FAR from turning AP completely off, and find it wonderful in stop & go. But everybody will have this tech soon, and I sorta wish they'd focus more on the car.�
Jan 26, 2016
RDoc This is happening on divided highways, there is no oncoming traffic.�
Jan 26, 2016
calisnow Sorry, I meant does it cross the limit line on the right side of the lane (since you're saying it biases too much to the right) - or just hug the line but not cross it?�
Jan 26, 2016
RDoc I'm not sure it actually crossed the line, but I had a case where the car went so far over that to the left that it triggered the lane departure warning. I grabbed the wheel because the car was heading for the guard rail.�
Jan 27, 2016
Soolim Hitting the guard rail is totally unacceptable. Once I had the S doing ping-pong (while one hand driving) and a truck approached me from left and behind but no risk of collision, the ultrasonic sensor triggered my car to swerved big time to avoid it.
Overall I think 7.1 is worse than 7.0 for AS.�
Jan 27, 2016
wk057 It seems to not dive for exits on 7.1 much at all. But lots of other things are worse. The bias, the nag, the restrictions, etc�
Jan 29, 2016
wk057 So, as mentioned in the nag thread, I just finished a ~1500 mile road trip. Most of it was at night on mostly empty roads, which was great for autosteer.
However, I can pretty much guarantee that without intervention that autosteer would have plowed into the rear left corner of probably 50 trucks that I passed due to the right-bias issue. Makes no sense. The car know it's on or over the right lane marker based on the visuals. It even sees the truck we're approaching in that lane to the right. Yet it maintains its position which at best leaves a few inches between my mirror and the truck, and at worst it would have left a few negative inches in between (ie, collision). In cases where the truck was far enough to the right where I let autosteer continue without intervention, the ultrasonics would eventually see the truck very close and start nudging to the left and would be maybe center of the lane by the time I passed the truck. Still not good.
Why doesn't the car just stay centered in the first place on a major highway? I don't get it.
This is a little different than the OP where there is something to the left for the ultrasonics to ping constantly. In my case it was a large grass median the whole way, no guard rails or anything to ping off of. Yet still, riding in the far left lane, the car would bias to basically on top of the line to the right. Sometimes it would drift to the center, then back again to the right, sometimes over the right line. Required much more babysitting than 7.0, which is definitely a step backwards.
I'll be very surprised if there aren't a bunch of accidents because of this issue in 7.1. Not that the people shouldn't be paying attention or anything and taking over (like I do basically every time I approach a vehicle to pass) or to pass blame to autopilot, but I could see a momentary lapse in attention much more easily causing an accident with 7.1 vs 7.0.
As good as a human my ***.�
Jan 29, 2016
stevezzzz What is there about individual cars that could make two different Model S adopt a different lane bias? I honestly don't see lane bias under 7.1 being much if any different from that in 7.0. The earlier version always made me nervous when passing big trucks on divided highways, by allowing the car to get (and remain) too close, side-to-side. That hasn't changed: it still makes me nervous under 7.1. But I don't see it as being obviously worse. I put in 2500 miles or more in AS under 7.0 and am rapidly approaching that many miles under 7.1.
I have experienced the lane departure warning in AS under 7.1; it seems to happen mostly on modestly curved, undivided roads. I can't really pin down the behavior, though: it seems to vary from trip to trip.�
Jan 29, 2016
mochouinard The solution is actually very simple and should have been done from the start ! Allow the driver to adjust it position within the lane. So let the drive center the car while autopilot is active and use that position ! There is no position fit all situation and fit all driver style. So this would resolve pretty much all complaint.
The only issue with that is the AP hardware is actually pretty weak and I'm not sure any software upgrade will fix that. From my limited Tesla AP experience (loaner), the Mobileye system don't see really far and have issues extrapolating potential line position or even following a car in front of you.
For example, at street light where there is no line because of the intersection, it will try to follow the car in front, but it will zigzag around when the while line are not present, EVEN if the white line are present and visible just 10 meter ahead, and the car in front and yourself are going in a straight line.
In that instance, it actually easy to fix, you extrapolate the while line continuation for X number of meters and confirm that with the car in front.
But those are hack to a lack of good sensors, and there is limit to what you can do with those.
For example, I've made a taxi dispatch software that predict where you will want to be pickup by analyzing previous calls. What great is you can use actual pass data to verify your accuracy. You can take a call from 2 day ago, and run the engine with data from before that 2 day ago and you can compare the actual client address versus what you predicted allowing you to quickly optimize your engine.
So the car could do the same thing as a security system, and if deviation is too high, then disable that system.
You can also verify your actual position by comparing 3 image. You know your speed and heading, so you can predict how the image will look like before you actually get that second image. Then you can compare what you predicted and the actual image and find deviation of your car.
Also, the car also need a bunch of other camera to get an actual 360o view of the car. And not just that, but position them at useful position. For example, central camera require it effective range of of the line being visible. Having 3 forward facing camera would be best (1 central and 1 on each side mirror).
The biggest things for AP system would be to create an camera lens that be clean by an electric signal. Or as a an alternative is to add a bunch of camera with correction software that can do composition from all of them. At some point, you will have to clean sensors, but maybe not as often as you would with just 1 camera.
Anyway, lot of stuff to do on the AP systems
I'm personally not disappointed anymore that I don't have the AP system in my car ! I'll probably like the 4th version of it
�
Jan 29, 2016
BobV I travel this 55mph road to work each morning and AP's lane biasing, combined with intermittent detection of the low curb on the median side, makes the car act like it's going to cut people off in the right-hand lane. At a minimum, it's unnerving to use AP on this stretch of road. Other 45+ mph roads in this area also have sidewalk-height median barriers and AP isn't really usable in the innermost lane due to the excessive bias. It really ought to back off the bias if the path (as shown on the IC display) is going to put the mirror or the tires over the striped line.
�
Jan 29, 2016
Todd Burch I'm the OP:
So after watching this for several weeks, I'm convinced that the majority of biasing is triggered by the camera seeing a yellow line on the left side of the car, although curbs/barriers also contribute.
I think Tesla decided that if the car sees a yellow line to its left, to ride on the right side of the lane. I'm fairly certain because I also see strong biasing in a left lane when there's a flat grass division between roads (no obstruction for the ultrasonics to pick up on), and when I ride in the right lane with a white line to the left, the car is perfectly centered.
I suspect this is their safety for the guy who posted the "Autopilot almost killed me!" YouTube video where he let autosteer have its way with him on a hilly, curvy road and almost plowed into an oncoming car. Tesla likely said "to reduce the chances of this, let's shift the car to the right side of the lane to reduce potential for a head-on collision".
I really, really, really hope this is temporary. IMHO it makes using autopilot in the left lane with traffic around a bit worse than uncomfortable, and I've emailed Tesla to let them know how I feel�
Jan 29, 2016
Soolim I specially like the underlined part.�
Jan 29, 2016
AWDtsla It should be 100% suggestible, without AP disengaging if you pull it too far. The whole disengage by steering input thing is just a terrible human interface design.�
Jan 29, 2016
Soolim Not that bad if you consider that the driver might have to do emergency maneuver without fighting the AS too hard, and without having to touch another button to disengage AS.�
Jan 29, 2016
calisnow Will the gradual development of high precision maps eventually fix this lane biasing problem for cars on the 1.0 sensor suite which will never get more cameras or any other type of better hardware?�
Jan 29, 2016
wk057 Who knows. I'm not confident that that GPS in the car is accurate enough for that kind of precision, personally.
I think they just need to center the car in the lane and be done with it. I can't think of any cases where being actually centered in the lane would be a bad plan, while there are tons of reasons being biased to either side is a bad plan.
The car knows it's not centered, and it knows where center is. Put it there and be done with it.
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I actually tried to nudge autosteer away from the line it was hugging a few times with just enough force to not disengage but enough to move the car to the left a little. Then autosteer comes back for revenge by pulling hard to the right to compensate... and move back towards the other lane that has a vehicle it knows is there. If you actually let go when it goes to do this is will jump all the way over the line and partly into the other lane before correcting.
Long story short, don't try to move the car while autosteer is on. Just take over, and re-engage when you're safe. I don't think the car has the ability to differentiate driver input vs road curvature or other conditions that can cause steering to pull to a side.�
Jan 29, 2016
Todd Burch Agree 100%�
Jan 29, 2016
AWDtsla The steering motor can probably overpower any human. The only reason it doesn't is because the torque sensors, which I assume are exactly the same that are used for electric assist steering along with some code don't let it. Thus you should be able to limit the amount of torque needed to override without having the computer give up completely.
If implemented this should feel like while your hand is on the wheel you're driving but maybe getting gently nudged. If you take your hands of the wheel, computer has full authority.
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I call this "my tesla is drunk"
It must. I don't see another way to design it. Otherwise the road curvature would be electrically boosting the steering wheel force back to your hands.�
Jan 29, 2016
S4WRXTTCS I agree as well. There is a danger in it trying to be smarter than the data it actually has to go off of.�
Jan 30, 2016
Soolim Because driver is still responsible (not autonomous yet), the AS should not fight the driver, driver should take over naturally/instinctively.�
Jan 30, 2016
cytranic Autopilot 7.1 sucks. Bring back Autopilot 7.0.�
Jan 30, 2016
AWDtsla Agree�
Jan 30, 2016
mobe My car seems to do fine unless I am in the left lane and approaching a truck in the right lane. In that situation it actually seems to right bias TOWARDS the left rear corner of the truck. I think that the front ultrasonic sensors need to have their range extended so that they can detect the trucks prior to coming along side them. As it now stands the front sensor is useless in this situation unless the car is nearly over the right line in which case I can see it fire. The ultrasonic sensors don't fire until the rear of the car is even with the rear wheels of the truck. At that point it is too late.�
Jan 30, 2016
dweeks I don't want to have to try to grab for a button or stalk to disengage the AP if it goes berserk and I need to override. I want to be able to resume manual steering by turning the wheel.�
Jan 30, 2016
AWDtsla You guys realize you are completely at the mercy of the computer right? A random bug even when AP is not enabled could send the steering veering off to the side with your inputs meaning _nothing_. Hell even a double fault in the steering rack could do the same.
Now reconsider what I have suggested. You would not be fighting it, it would gently let you know you're not going where it wants to go. No worse than driving any car that needs an alignment straight.�
Jan 30, 2016
Soolim This I think is the intuitive way when faced with an emergency condition.�
Jan 30, 2016
AWDtsla Still, missing the point. I guess it's just hard to understand.�
Jan 30, 2016
Soolim Try explaining it in layman's term.
For example, if I have AS on, but I see that it is going to drive into an open manhole, what would the car do? What should I do instinctively?�
Jan 30, 2016
AWDtsla So the car without any fancy stuff, with a proper alignment on a flat road always aims for center, right? If you let go of the wheel while off-center, it's turns back to center on it's own. Is it hard to take control and steer it while the car is driving straight? Do you have to exert a lot of pressure? No, thanks to power steering.
So AP when engaged should always aim for center of lane with an equivalent feedback force to the driver. A driver input while AP is engaged should take very little, if any additional effort over normal steering. A little feedback would give you the same thing as "road feel", but in this case "AP feel".
To answer your question: If you see the car heading into a manhole you do the same thing you would do if no AP existed. It is no harder.�
Jan 30, 2016
Soolim I am not nitpicking but just want to get full understanding.
1. With proper alignment, the car does not know how to aim for the center, it aims straight (due to wheel caster) whether center of the lane/road or not, assuming road camber is not a factor. Yes, it takes little or no effort to maintain straight run, power steering or not. If by center, you mean the steering wheel is driving straight, then we have agreement.
2. AS aiming for the center of the lane depends on the camera for lane marking. However, as some of us (including me) observed, the car ping-pongs. The reason it ping-pong is irrelevant to this discussion. I can feel the AS doing the ping-pong by the feedback on the wheel, and that is also how my hand resisting the ping-pong tells the AS my hand is on wheel, by torque sensing, up to the extend I tolerate the ping-pong. I can overcome the AS any time by applying higher torque than what AS has been programmed for hand on wheel detection.
3. If the open manhole happens to be on the path of the wheel. The AS maintaining direction will drive over it, resulting in possible damage to the tire/wheel.
4. If the open manhole is coming up very quickly, and I want to take over the steering, I apply manual steering to avoid the manhole with enough torque and AS give up control so as not to resist my emergency maneuver. My emergency maneuver might include crossing the lane (if safe to do so by my judgement) which is contrary to what AS might do if still engaged.
Based on 3 and 4, the current implementation of AS to disengage is what I want.�
Jan 30, 2016
Tedkidd My aunt and uncle would both comment on how centered the car is, and they would prefer a right of center bias.
Please let me know how you turn this on so I can share with them??
Seriously, how cool if it could learn potholes and plan to avoid them.�
Jan 30, 2016
AWDtsla Yes, and AP should simply redefine "center".
More allowance is allowed before AP disengages now, yes. With 7.0 AP would simple disengage, regardless of ping-pong. Take that change and go another lightyear with it.
Again missed the point. Avoiding the manhole cover while AP is aiming for it should be NO DIFFERENT than avoiding a manhole cover if driving straight and on-center in normal mode. AP should merely redefine the center return position. You let go of the wheel, it should return to AP's path-defined center instead of a mechanically defined center via caster. You should never fight AP, unlike you do now.
I'm wondering right now why I'm re-engineering Tesla's solution to work *RIGHT* and *ELEGANTLY*, these are supposed to be the smart engineers.�
Jan 30, 2016
Soolim Does any other ADAS equipped car (e.g. MB or BMW) do it your RIGHT and ELEGANT way?�
Jan 30, 2016
Andyw2100 I think the only difference in the manhole cover situation between what AWDtsla is suggesting and the current implementation of Auto-Steer is that under AWDtsla's implementation, after taking evasive measures by steering the car away from the manhole cover, if the driver released the steering wheel, the car would continue driving, centered in the lane, with Auto-Steer engaged. Soolim would prefer the current implementation in which the steering maneuver disengages Auto-Steer.
I'm not taking sides. I'm just trying to distill this down.�
Jan 31, 2016
calisnow So - why do you think they did not set it up the way you think it should be?�
Jan 31, 2016
Soolim Would be nice to know. Do you know if any other ADAS equipped car can do what AWDtsla envisioned?�
Jan 31, 2016
stevem I know this is an older pic, but I really want to see this data in my car with AP enabled. Any chance us "regular people" would have a non-warranty voiding way to see this? I think it would be fascinating.
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Jan 31, 2016
wk057 It does not void any warranty to do anything I've done.�
Jan 31, 2016
stevem Ok, I never said you did.�
Mar 10, 2016
Todd Burch To close the loop on this thread, one of the recent minor 7.1 updates seems to have made this vastly better. I no longer feel like I'm going to ram cars in the lane next to me, and I notice that the bias away from curbs and barriers is much more gentle and measured.
Significantly better. Thanks, Tesla!�
Mar 10, 2016
AWDtsla Really? I was just getting ready to write an email to Tesla. There have been several times where I took control back, I have a feeling a collision may have been imminent. The car still seems to completley ignore cars in the lane to the right, and leaves a huge gap to the yellow lan marker to the left, even thought there 20+ feet of grass on the other side of it. Actually, the front ultrasonics don't even seem to go off for cars, only curbs.�
Mar 10, 2016
Todd Burch Yes, really. I drive the exact same route every day, at the same time. It's without a doubt better. Not quite perfect, but getting close. I have 2.13.120. What version do you have?�
Mar 10, 2016
AWDtsla 2.12.126.
I also forgot to mention, that the car almost seems to dive for the car in the right lane just as your front bumper is near their rear bumper. You can feel a little blip in the steering wheel. I was thinking to myself "maybe my ultrasonics are wired backwards" but they seem to be correct when parking.�
Mar 10, 2016
Todd Burch I don't see this at all with the latest build. Dramatically better than the initial 7.1 rollout IMHO.�
Mar 10, 2016
mkjayakumar I don't see any bias at all. Perfectly centered all the time.
What I noticed was when there is a truck to my right (or left) my preference usually is to move away and hug the line to the left (or right) so as to leave a much larger gap between me and the truck. But AP sticks to the center religiously, which is fine by me, except it is different from natural behavior.
Initially I thought why is my car so close to the truck, but then realized it is not. Just an apparent illusion next to a monster vehicle.�
Mar 23, 2016
jfranks Google car does truck lane bias right.
Watched a presentation at SXSW by the Google Car people and one of the things mentioned was that when alongside a truck/18 wheeler they bias the car toward the left and away from the truck. Seems like the smart thing to do. Almost seems like Tesla bias is toward the truck. Comment about passing trucks at 12 min 10 sec into talk.
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Mar 23, 2016
Andyw2100 I only watched a little bit beyond the bit about shifting away from the truck, but braking just to get out of another driver's blind spot? Wouldn't just easing up a hair on the accelerator work almost as well, and be a heck of a lot more efficient?
I wonder if "braking" with the brake lights being shown in the video and everything, was really just an exaggeration for demonstration purposes, and in reality the cars just eased off the gas a bit.�
Mar 23, 2016
brianman Maybe they meant regen.�
Mar 23, 2016
Todd Burch Yep, this was fixed sometime in the last few weeks.�
Mar 23, 2016
JHellow No, it has not been fixed with the latest update. I have the latest update, 2.14.66, and the car still has a tendency in the car pool lane to shift closer to vehicles in the lane to the right of me. It tends to happen on curves and it is happening on the 405 FWY in Tesla's back yard. I have had to take control several times in the last week because of this. I think it was better a couple of updates ago.�
Mar 23, 2016
Todd Burch You are referring to a different issue.�
Mar 23, 2016
calisnow Would you be up for going out driving together and filming each other's Teslas? Mine is a 2016 70D also on the latest update. I'm very curious to see if different cars actually behave differently or if these reported anomalies are a difference in how different owners perceive the cars' behavior.
We could pick a stretch of freeway and set up a couple of dash cams - do some repeated runs. Would be quite interesting for the community.�
Mar 23, 2016
green1 Tesla is on record stating that the Model S does exactly that as well, unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any truth at all to their claim...�
Mar 23, 2016
mkjayakumar What I have observed is, when I am passing a big truck, my 'S' is just centered as usual. That is - it behaves as if the truck does not exist and does not nudge even an inch towards the other lane. This is contrary to human behavior where we instinctively move away from the truck and give a larger space between the two vehicles. So it did make me nervous initially, although not any more knowing being centered is just as good.
I am guessing some of us may feel a right bias perhaps because we prefer a bit more space when a truck is there next to us, than say a small car.�
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