Thứ Bảy, 28 tháng 1, 2017

High Power Home Charging Package worth it? part 1

  • Aug 3, 2013
    gameboy
    I'm a prospective Model S buyer and trying to plan out how I would charge it. With today's changes in their charging options, you only have the option to get the High Power Home Charging package for $2700 for twin charging and High Power Wall Connector. I don't think I have the need for a High power wall connector. Is the twin charger worth it?

    On a slightly different note, I got a new garage built last year with standard outlets. Is there any benefit to paying an electrician to bring in 240V outlet?

    Just trying to plan ahead should my driving habits change as well as resale value. I'm not sure what questions to ask my myself for these issues.
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    bollar
    Easy part first: You almost certainly want 240v in the garage. With a 50 amp circuit, you'll be able to charge at 31 miles per hour. With 110, only 5 miles per hour!

    Harder part. I think dual chargers are an interesting, and possibly worthwhile option, especially for those of us not on the coasts. I had decided to get them in my build before they started bundling them with the HPWC. The HPWC has a cool factor, but wiring a 100 amp circuit is probably more expensive (potentially much more expensive) -- depending on your current panel configuration. Yes, you can charge at 62 mph, but that's faster than I need.
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    steve841
    Unless you are doing a ton of back to back high mileage driving .... a NEMA 14-50 is plenty.
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    jerry33
    I got the twin chargers because it was far cheaper to have them installed as an option and at some point there may be EVSEs that will make them useful (I'm 100% positive that if I hadn't purchased them, there would have been many 70 and 80 amp chargers showing up.)

    At home I use the NEMA 14-50.
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    benfrank3
    I have the NEMA 14-50 in my garage and I installed it myself. I charge at about 30 miles per hour. I have it start charging at 11 pm and its always full by the time I wake up.
    Twin charger is not needed, IMHO. Save the money.
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    andrewket
    I use my twin chargers every day. I'm on a TOU pricing plan, and the ultra cheap window is only 4 hours long. If I couldn't charge above 40A I wouldn't always be able to charge to my desired level.

    I have also used the HPWC at our nearby mall while shopping or going to a movie. Twin chargers allows me to gain 2x the range while I'm there, and frees up the evse for someone else faster (assuming that I move my car as soon as its done charging, which I do.)

    I originally just bought the twin charger because it was cheaper from the factory and to future-proof. I did not originally purchase the HPWC. That came later, partially because of the TOU plan, but also because I wanted to keep the mobile connector in the car and didn't want to unplug and stow it every day.

    A
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    bob_p
    I used the 14-50 @ 40A for the first 3 months and the HPWC @ 60A for the last 3 months.

    The 14-50 is sufficient for overnight charging.

    The extra power of the HPWC is only really needed if you drive a lot during the day and need to recharge before heading out again - which I did once when I did a round trip to the office in the morning, came home and topped off the charge and then drove 170 miles for a business trip. It would have taken longer to do the top off charge with the 14-50 than with the HPWC.

    I don't regret purchasing the HPWC or the 2nd charger - it's good to know that I have the extra charging capacity, just in case I ever need to drive more than 200 miles in one day.
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    brianman
    If my original vehicle was a general production instead of a Signature, I probably wouldn't have ordered the HPWC but would have ordered the dual chargers.

    With the new Design Studio, there are reports that you have get the HPWC if you get dual chargers. If that is true...

    For the next 2 years, if I was travelling by car a lot for work, I would probably strongly consider buying both to get the dual chargers. Otherwise, the 14-50 at home is plenty.

    Three years from now, I expect the supercharger network to be built out more and would probably skip the option pair.

    Just another data point.
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    evmile
    I bought the HPWC and twin chargers and am happy I did. However it is an expensive choice since you need several things:

    1) 100 Amp circuit from your circuit breakers ( ~$1000-$2000)
    2) 100 Amps available in your breaker box. If not you may need a 400 Amp service from the pole and a new box. (~$10,000).
    3) The actual option ($2700)
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    SoTX_WestTX
    Like others, I don't drive enough day-to-day to make the HPWC worth it, but I was leaning towards springing for the twin chargers for future potential use on long trips. Now that it appears you the TC only come in the HPWC bundle, I guess it makes my decision easier.

    Too bad. When I first read the changes I thought more HPWCs might make their way out into the wild and hopefully to a friendly person in San Angelo or Abilene :) (I don't need one in my house, I need one 200 miles from my house.). Then my brain worked for 3 more seconds and realized that I wouldn't have the TC to take advantage of that potential future hospitality.

    I'm really trying hard to ignore the fact that it more and more looks like it makes more sense in my situation to put off my purchase for another year or two.
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    markb1
    If you want the twin chargers but not the HPWC, you can always buy the package and sell the HPWC.
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    brianman
    ... or donate the HPWC to a business at a location of interest to you.

    Good point.
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    bollar
    Uh... Because unwanted bundling is a great example of "optionality?"

    Seriously -- since basically everything else has been unbundled, I wonder what's driving this?
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    MarkR
    Unless you need really fast charging, the HPWC and twin chargers are an expensive overkill. For the vast majority of owners, a 220v NEMA 14-50 outlet in your garage and the Tesla-provided UMC is fully sufficient.
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    brianman
    I think there's already another thread on this topic...

    - - - Updated - - -

    I don't consider 240/70 or 240/80 "fast" charging.
    I consider 110/12 "abysmally slow" charging.
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    SoTX_WestTX
    This would probably be a good option for most buyers, living in urban areas with many other Tesla owners. I suppose there are probably people who didn't buy one initially that don't want to wait however long it takes for one to come directly from Tesla.

    I agree with Bollar, it does seem weird that they unbundled pretty much everything else, but then consolidated to a package on the chargers. Maybe they found the majority were buying things bundled already.
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    RandyS
    If you're not planning on taking any road trips, then I would agree with you...However, I'm on a road trip now and have used Level 2 charging stations that put out greater than 40 amps a few times in the last week...I bought my dual chargers specifically for this purpose, and they work great....40 amps maximum (with a single on-board charger) will work, but when you've tasted the faster rate you don't want to go back....

    I am planning on taking 3-4 good road trips per year, so for me the dual chargers are very nice to have....Like many other things in life, this is a personal opinion and your mileage may vary....
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    Puyallup Bill
    Sort of a tough call now that you have to take the HPWC in order to get the twin chargers. Twin chargers were never a question for me, and the first time I charged on the road at 70 Amps, I knew why. Maybe not in your part of the country, but out this way there are high power roadster EVSEs that the S can use with an adapter.

    Also, up north the Canadian Sun Country Highway has several Clipper Creek 70 Amp J1772 EVSEs.
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    Lloyd
    Whoever bought the HPWC on Ebay sure got a good deal at $750!
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    ToddRLockwood
    First, I'll repeat what has already been said here: you most definitely want a 240V/40A outlet in your garage. (NEMA 14-50)

    Personally, I think the HPWC is overkill for home charging. What difference does it make if you charge your car in 3 hours or in 6 hours, if you're asleep?? A rare exception, where the HPWC might make sense, is if you have off-peak electric rates for a very short period at night (4 hours or less). But, the HPWC can only be installed if you have a spare 240V/100A space left in your electric panel. Most homes have a 200A total, so unless you have a gas stove, gas oven and gas clothes dryer, you probably don't have 100A to spare.

    All that said, the Twin Charger option is a very useful feature to have in your car for another reason: so you can charge at the 80A level (62 miles/hour) while visiting a Tesla store or while your car is being serviced at a Tesla service center. I have been in these situations several times, and I'm very glad I had the Twin Chargers. It kept me from having to wait another 90 minutes to get my car topped off. (Twin Chargers are not necessary for using a Supercharger station.)

    Tesla's brand new configuration page now has the Twin Charger option bundled with the HPWC. (I hope they reconsider this.) If you are quite certain that you don't want the HPWC, but you do want Twin Chargers, call the Tesla Ownership team and explain this to them. They do make exceptions.
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    brianman
    It remains to be seen. We might see a flood of HPWC in the aftermarket by people who want the twin chargers but don't want to pay the "retrofit premium" for them.
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    voidptr
    I got the twin chargers but not the HPWC in case I ran across >10kW chargers in the wild, or if in the future my daily usage changed and I wanted to add the HPWC. If I was buying today, I'd probably just go ahead and get it, since the price for the bundle is still less than the cost to just add the second charger later.

    You can always install the HPWC on a smaller breaker and configure it to report the lower amperage if running a 100 amp circuit isn't worth the extra cost, if nothing else you can keep the UMC in the car all the time.
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    Mayhemm
    As it happens, I was planning to get the both the TC and the HPWC anyway. The HPWC would go in my garage at 60 amps as an aesthetic thing so I don't have to plug/unplug my UMC everyday.

    Here in Canada, 60-amp+ public chargers are prevalent, so I want the TC to minimize the time I spend charging when I travel.

    I still think this bundle is a bad idea that forces people to make a decision they didn't have to make before. What happened to "optionality", Elon?

    Hopefully, they will back off on this soon.
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  • Aug 3, 2013
    PeterW
    Agreed. We will set up a 32 amp connection at home. Can not go much higher without big $ (long driveway). We were looking at the twin chargers but not if we have to pay for both.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    Puyallup Bill
    For what it is worth, I emailed Tesla telling them the bundle was a really poor idea. Maybe if they hear it from enough folks, they will back off. Damn, getting just like the old car companies - you want this option? Then you have to also take this one.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    jerry33
    The most positive thing about the bundle is that there will be a lot more donations of HPWCs to businesses. I hope those businesses are in OK and KS as there won't be any Superchargers there for years--and the dots shown in the map aren't in great locations (for me).
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    Huskerfl
    It took a while to receive our HPWC and we used the UMC exclusively until then. UMC works great and I have recommended not getting the HPWC to others who have purchased The MS. However I have found it very helpful when I have had to range charge for a couple of trips. We wanted to leave ASAP after needing to run some errands using the MS and it was more convienent being able to charge twice as fast to get the full range and leave the house sooner. It is useful in certain travel circumstances where the charging infrastructure isn't as readily available.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    DRK
    Is the HPWC worth it? The answer for me was yes and no. I bought the HPWC/Twin charger package and had 2 possible locations for install. At home or at work. It made perfect sense for me to install the 14-50 at home because this is where the car would be for an extended period of time. It was also a place where I could very easily find a 50amp source without incurring much cost. Finding a 100amp feed in a typical residential home is some serious power and in my case was way overkill. However, at my office I was able to be in a place where the infrastructure to support the kind of power this things needs was more readily available. I elected to purchase a new transformer and decided to go with a 200amp unit. My reasoning here was one that I may need to charge during the day quickly, and possibly wanted to future proof my location for added EV's later on.

    I know everyones situation will be different than mine, but some using the HPWC at home was not a requirement for me.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    bollar
    If I had a need for the HPWC, I'd rather install a ClipperCreek CS-100, so I could use the J1772 with other cars.

    Maybe this twin charging/HPWC combination is an attempt to get an installed base of HPWC chargers into the field and create a barrier to purchasing competing cars because of incompatible connectors.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    gameboy
    Thanks for everyone's responses.

    I own a 1960s duplex and checked my side of the breaker at the meter and it does say 100A. So it sounds like I COULD install the HPWC. However, based on Tesla's calculator under CHARGING > CALCULATORS > WHICH EQUIPMENT IS RIGHT FOR YOU? and answering the questions there (I answered NO / NO), it's recommended I just live with the mobile connector and single charger. I may go that route. But if I'm going to pay an electrician to get the 240V 14-50, how much more cost is there to get set up with the HPWC since my breaker can do 100A?

    By the way, it's interesting to note that now they bundle the HPWC and twin charger together, their calculator results haven't been updated yet since their recommendation is for Mobile Connector + Twin Chargers when you answer NO / YES to their questions. We can't get just the Twin Chargers any more!


    My other questions are:

    - The calculator questions are directed at my current situation. If I sell the Tesla for the next latest and greatest, is not having the twin chargers feature in the Tesla a big deal on resale?
    - Would you hire a local electrician to do the electrical work or have Tesla's SolarCity installer do the work?
    - I have a two-car garage. Where would you locate the 240 14-50 connector (1 or 2) in the garage? And/Or locate the HPWC?
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    DRK
    Your panel is 100amps, thats for the entire house. The HPWC can draw 40-100amps which would overload your panel. Have an electrician in to do a load test, and that will determine if you even have enough room for a 14-50 at 50amps. Hope that helps.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    Seven7
    I bought the HPWC because I didn't want to have to keep putting the UMC into the trunk all the time. The UMC and it's adapters are in the car at all the times just in case they are needed on the road.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    smorgasbord
    Discussed in great depth here: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/7060-Twin-Chargers-Why

    The mandatory HPWC wrinkle doesn't change much, except to accentuate that the main reason is because you drive more than the range of your car in back to back sessions with less than overnight hours between sessions. A second reason is that you know of existing or firm plans for high-power Level 2 chargers along long distance routes you're likely to take that don't have superchargers.

    In my view, the second reason is going away fast. There's no economic incentive to put in high power Level 2 chargers that only some Model S's can use when those Model S's can all use existing or soon upcoming Superchargers. There's even an argument to make that putting in hi power L2 charging will slow the rate at which Superchargers will come to that route.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    gameboy
    True. Good point. Thanks! I've arranged to have one stop by.

    Then how do the twin chargers work? It says 80A in the calculator. I guess this allows going to commercial places that charge up if I can't at my house?
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    jerry33
    Some areas have 70 amp J1772 EVSEs. If you only have a single charger you can still only charge at 40 amps rather than 70. The thing is that the number of chargers will increase, not decrease. There are a number of Leaf owners in the NTEAA that are now regretting they didn't get the optional larger connector. When they purchased their Leaf there no EVSEs that used those connectors around, now there are many but they can't use them.

    It's all about charging options that you can (or can't) take advantage of.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    DRK
    There are 2 Chargers on board the car, so when you use a HPWC set at 80amps, 40amps each goes into the car thus charging at 2X.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    evmile
    Reasons I bought the HPWC.

    1) I expect Tesla will offer larger battery packs in the future (85 kWh -> 100 kWh).
    2) There are no plans for Superchargers anywhere near me.
    3) I would like to keep the mobile charging cable in the car - not connecting and disconnecting each time I take a trip.
    4) I had already installed the infrastructure to support my Nissan LEAF and solar panels.
    5) There are 70 Amp J1772 chargers in locations where I don't see any Superchargers scheduled to be installed. California and Canada are examples.
    6) Tesla Stores and Service centers offer 70 Amp J1772.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    smorgasbord
    What matters is how many miles you drive, not how big the battery is.


    What matters is whether you can get to a full charge at home while you sleep, not whether there's some charger not at home that's faster.


    For living in CA like you do, there are far more numerous and more convenient J1772s for trips than boring, inconvenient RV parks. Unless I'm traveling to a friend's house and intend to use their dryer connection, I don't take the UMC with me ever.


    You can't charge your Leaf with the HPWC.


    The HPWC won't help you on the road. The twin chargers might, but not for long.


    Again, the HPWC won't help there. The twin chargers might, assuming you're on the road and need to charge up and the Tesla stores/service centers are open.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    PhilBa
    I got TC and the HPWC. While it's not necessary for most usage, I like TC for accesses to >40A charging. I have my HPWC on an 80A circuit so get 64A at the charger. It's actually useful because I need the faster charging this morning. Nice when you need it.

    As for the bundle, OT to this thread but Tesla should be shamed for that.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    darthvdr
    I think this is purely based on personal need. I tried not to get the TC, but realized I am planning 2-3 days ahead for my travel schedule. If I needed to make a change, it would be difficult. So I went with the TC and loved the convenience of quicker charging.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    jerry33
    This is the only one I can't agree with. Even when the dots on the map are all red, there will be plenty of places that will not be covered. To take my personal example:

    I often drive 377 to 177 to 77 for about 650 miles. No SCs planned ever along that route. So when they eventually get built (not before 2016 as the map is optimistic by at least six months) I will have the choice of:

    1. Driving on the Interstate and going many miles out of my way (not to mention the crummy Interstate experience).

    2. Driving my normal route, then going out of the way to the Supercharger and then back to the route. I'd probably still have to get at least one non-SC charge. This will likely add more distance to the trip than the Interstate route but at least I would be spared driving on the Interstate (mostly anyway).
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    Puyallup Bill
    Received the following in response to my email:

    Hi William,

    I received your note this morning regarding our new option to bundle the High Power Wall Connector and Twin Charger feature.

    We made this decision in clarify for customers the benefit Twin Charger feature offers, and what it requires. Fortunately, under the circumstance that a customer cannot install the Wall Connector, we will accept a return of the device. This is the only work around we have currently, but I�ll investigate if we can add the Twin Charger into the configuration manually, without addition of the Wall Connector.

    Thanks for sending us the suggestion. If you have any other questions, feel free to contact me.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    evmile
    "What matters is how many miles you drive, not how big the battery is."

    The bigger the battery the larger the difference between the 10 kW and 20 kW HPWC. For example to charge the 100 kWh battery it would take ten hours with the 10 kW charger and five hours with the 20 kW HPWC. For Time of Use power rates the 10 hours would exceed the 7 or 8 hour window as well


    "For living in CA like you do, there are far more numerous and more convenient J1772s for trips than boring, inconvenient RV parks. Unless I'm traveling to a friend's house and intend to use their dryer connection, I don't take the UMC with me ever."

    I don't feel secure driving without my UMC in the car in case something happens and I need to find a charge somewhere.


    "You can't charge your Leaf with the HPWC."

    The point is if have invested in providing for the infrastructure for first EV the second EV is easier to support if you planned ahead.


    "The HPWC won't help you on the road. The twin chargers might, but not for long."

    Do you think people will remove 70 Amp J1772 EVSEs and replace them with 30 Amp J1772s?


    "Again, the HPWC won't help there. The twin chargers might, assuming you're on the road and need to charge up and the Tesla stores/service centers are open."

    You can also use "Plugshare" to find other Tesla owners with a HPWC that they are willing to share.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    jerry33
    That would be cool except that there aren't any along (or even within a reasonable distance) of my normal route.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    AmpedRealtor
    Yes!

    I just added my home in Buckeye, AZ as a residential HPWC location on PlugShare.com. I want to help out fellow Model S owners as much as possible! I am 125 miles east of Blythe along the I-10 and can provide you with an 80A charge. Blythe itself has only 110v hotel outlets and an RV campsite where you can charge at 40A as far as I can tell.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    sp4rk
    Where'd you see that? I checked completed listings.
    Do we know for certain that you cannot buy the TC now without the HPWC. To me they're mutually exclusive.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    jerry33
    Yes. We know that for certain. However, Tesla has sent an email (posted on another thread) saying that you can return the unwanted HPWC. Of course, you won't get sales tax back.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    brianman
    I don't think I've mentioned it before, but one of the reasons I wanted the HPWC with the vehicle because (originally) I wanted the Sig Red faceplate. They killed that dream long ago. Unless I steal it from the Fremont Service Center that is.

    They still have it painted on the walls in the Bellevue store, in a pamphlet about HPWC use, and on the web site, and.... /sadface
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    pilotSteve
    Interesting, this is how I understood the bundling of HPWC and TC when I went to the new web site to check the pricing this morning. It made sense to me as posters here continue to be confused about TC/HPWC/SC setup and what is needed/useful under various scenarios.

    I'm probably warped because I bought twin chargers and hpwc from day one.... and love the 55MPH (80A) charging that they offer.

    My favorite quote from a previous poster: "80A charging is *not* fast charging.... SuperCharging is". I agree in that I have no range anxiety with my home HPWC knowing that I can (a) always charge in 5 hours or less and (b) can normally charge to 200 miles range, then have a trip pop-up and complete a full range charge in under 1 hours 30 minutes.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    100thMonkey
    I'm still a relative noob to EV's but I have owned one for 2.5 years and now, with the S own two. I have a few thoughts for you:

    1. twin charging, even super charging is still slow compared to filling up on gas. in 2.5 years with the Leaf and even with the Tesla S, I'm willing to pay a premium to avoid any time sitting around waiting for the car to charge, this gets old, especially with a family of 4. IMHO, definitely get the twin chargers!

    2. I wouldn't bother with the HPWC, it's sexy but so far it doesn't strike me as the most robust nor versatile. bottom line, when it comes to charging, reliability is the sexiest thing around! I'd highly recommend, as stated by another gentleman, the Clipper Creek CS100. an earlier version, the CS90 has been used for the Roadster Tesla highway along the west coast and all across Canada along the Sun Country highway... they are super sexy robust and reliable!

    3. for those going solar, have all future additional loads accounted for when you redo your electrical panel, this is the easiest and most economical time to add to your service. we did and it made the addition of the high powered circuit relatively inexpensive!

    4. highly, highly recommend assuring tripple redundancy! we have a 14/50 coming off the 125A sub panel for the Clipper creek, that way, if/when the clipper creek is down, I can plug the UMC into it and still get decent speed charging. a third option is good since, you may not know it now, but you will likely want to get rid of your other gas car shortly and want another EV and the option to plug them both in at the same time... a dedicated 20A standard outlet is even a bonus. to take it easy on the battery, I leave mine at around 50% most time and charge off of the 40A 14/50. the clipper creek is at the end of the driveway and will usually charge the Leaf. having access to faster charging helps me bring the Tesla up from 50% easily on the off chance I need more of a charge than usual quickly.

    5. consider being apart of plugshare/recargo. having a 14/50 helps increase your ability to be of service to someone in a pinch, a clipper creek CS 100 is even better, allowing most EV's to charge since it's a J1772, it's the highest powered J1772 on the market. so far, I've seen charging rates of 60 mph, which seems higher than most are reporting with the HPWC. if you have some roadsters in your area and little additional infrastructure for them to rely on, consider going with a CS 90 so they can use it too... for some reason the Tesla Roadster is the only EV that can not charge on a charger that allows up to 70+ A charging rate. In any case, while I love Tesla, I very much appreciate being able to contribute to the larger EV community through plug share with a high powered J1772.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    AmpedRealtor
    You are saying not to bother with the HPWC which costs $1,200 and charges at 80A, yet recommend the Clipper Creek CS100 which costs $2,195 and charges at 75A?

    :confused:
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    Crispix
    He's saying that because of #5 above: Clipper Creek charges more than just Teslas.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    Lloyd
    TEG said it finally went for $866 I believe plus $100 shipping.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    DRK
    Just keep in mind the CS-100 wont charge the Roadsters.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    evme
    There is also the EMW JuiceBox that is 62A and goes for $139 for the DIY option, $249 for the premium DIY option and $359 for the assembled option. And it does 60A @240V with [FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]J1772(15kw). I think this is the cheapest option there is at the moment.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]Though I really hope Tesla reconsiders the bundling. The advantage to not having it bundled is we can get the twin charger option but if we at some point feel we need more to upgrade at any time. Unfortunately from what I understand,it is impossible to upgrade the car itself once it is shipped.[/FONT]
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    Banahogg
    Not true - it just costs over twice as much as the old twin charger cost: Shop Tesla Gear Twin Charger with Installation

    I agree that it would be nice to have an option for just the on-board charger with the order, but I can kind of see why they're doing it - I've seen tech-savvy people get confused by their explanations of number of chargers on the car, UMC vs HPWC, and supercharging (I can usually correct them if I have a whiteboard handy)
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    evme
    I could have sworn I read somewhere that it was not do-able, thanks for the correction.

    Yeah I get it, but I think they can get around it with a simple popup warning explaining that your not going to be able to take advantage of the charger without the twin charger. Or maybe some code we can type in to remove it for people who know what they are doing.
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  • Aug 4, 2013
    smorgasbord
    You're missing the point. If you drive 50 miles a day, then the single charger will give you a full charge in less than 2 hours no matter big your battery is.

    "For living in CA like you do, there are far more numerous and more convenient J1772s for trips than boring, inconvenient RV parks. Unless I'm traveling to a friend's house and intend to use their dryer connection, I don't take the UMC with me ever."

    You're probably pretty new at this. You'll quickly find that J1772s in CA are far easier to find and use than 14-50 outlets.


    The HPWC is installed in your house. It doesn't help you on the road. You do understand the difference between the twin chargers and the HPWC, right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Does your route have high-power Level 2 chargers?

    If not, do you know of plans to have them installed?

    If you're expecting people to make their HPWC's available and this is a frequent route for you, do you think that's really viable?
    �
  • Aug 4, 2013
    Denarius
    HPWC and twin chargers saved my bacon the other day. I didn't insert my HPWC fully, so when my scheduled charging started the car only charged at 16 amps. Fortunately I checked my car in the morning and was able to reinsert and crank it up to 80amps. I had enough range by the time I needed to leave.

    I've also had instances where I went to work, using about 80 miles of range. Upon getting home I needed to replace the miles for a trip with the family that evening. Being able to leave that much quicker was helpful.

    I think they are worth it, but I have an unpredictable schedule and don't want charge anxiety. If I had a 30 mile commute that never changed I may have opted for the single charger and no HPWC.
    �
  • Aug 4, 2013
    100thMonkey
    the CS 100 is now full 80A capable. being able to charge both the Leaf and the S as well as have it on plugshare is of high value to me... and it's also future proofed as other EV's come out with faster on board chargers.

    one more general comment, for anyone considering how valuable high speed charging would be, I believe it's important to look beyond how often you travel beyond X number of miles in a given day. I find that averages don't tell the story very well. I've found it's the occasional, really inconvenient situation due to slow charging that weighs heavily in the equation.
    �
  • Aug 5, 2013
    smorgasbord
    Yes, if this is the kind of situation you might encounter, then it could make sense to get the charging package. But, think about what it takes:

    � Commute consumption plus evening drive exceeds the range of your battery plus hours between drives times 30 miles/hours.
    � No charging at work, or charging at work cuts commute range consumption in half.
    � No Supercharging along the evening route.

    But, if you're looking at the 60kWh battery and thinking about adding this package, and assuming it's still $2K to get Supercharging with the 60kWh battery, then you're half-way towards upgrading to the 85 kWh battery, money-wise. Might be something to think about.

    And I acknowledge the side benefits to having the HPWC - it's convenient, looks good, and friends can charge more quickly while they're over. It may also be more reliable than the UMC long term.

    Finally, a couple people have mentioned charging during short low TOU periods. I'd like to see the analysis for payback on this. It strikes me that it'll take like a lot of long distance miles on a daily basis to have a nickel or a dime per kWh add up to $2700.
    �
  • Aug 5, 2013
    Denarius
    I agree smorgasbord, there are few people that actually need them. By the end of this year I will probably no longer need them, as I will have superchargers along my common routes.
    �
  • Aug 5, 2013
    Jgdixon
    No way I'm buying another HPWC when I sell or trade in my S for a new one in a few years.
    So they will have to change the policy for those that already have one.
    �
  • Aug 5, 2013
    andrewket
    It doesn't have to add up to 2700.

    Assume you're going to get the twin charger anyway. Second, assume you want a second connector so you can keep the UMC in the car. Deduct the cost of a second UMC.

    The savings from the TOU plan has to pay only for the marginal cost. I don't have the figures in front of me but from memory it works out to be about $700. The pay back period is still long, but add in the convenience of fast charging and for me it became an easier decision.
    �
  • Aug 5, 2013
    Lloyd
    I normally charge at 20 amps, but I find the HPWC useful: 1. when I need to add more range quickly and 2. for guests that stop by. I find that my friends use the HPWC 5 to 1 over my own usage.
    �
  • Aug 5, 2013
    AmpedRealtor
    Whatever you end up installing, please consider offering to share that connection with other Model S owners. You can publish your location on PlugShare.com while keeping your address private. I published my residential location as having an HPWC and already received one request to use it in a couple of weeks by one gentleman who is driving to my area. I think this is a great way to meet other Model S owners.
    �
  • Aug 7, 2013
    TeslaSinHR
    I charge my 85 at home using a 14-50 outlet. But I had the electrician use wiring that could handle 100 A (it is on a 50 A circuit breaker) so that if I ever decided to upgrade we just need to put on the HPWC and bigger circuit breaker. (I would probably do this more if I wanted to make it available to other Tesla owners coming through Hood River, OR who would like a faster charging option)

    For my daily driving needs (< 50 mi/day) it is plenty. I always leave in the morning with a full "standard" charge if I plug in. Even if I come back from a long trip with a low charge, it will fully charge overnight. I've got the point where I don't even bother plugging it in every night.

    In fact, I almost never use the twin chargers and wouldn't get them again. The supercharger network is building out fast and I've never come across a charger in the wild (where you really want fast charging) that would deliver more than 40 A other than at a Tesla showroom or service center.
    �
  • Aug 9, 2013
    smorgasbord
    Your "marginal cost" is artificially small - paying $1500 for twin chargers "anyway," etc.

    If you look at the TOU pay back, remember you only start saving when you've driven more than 120 miles since the single charger will completely recharge your car in 4 hours or less unless you drive more than that. So, you'd have to regularly drive more than 120 miles/day, which most people don't do.
    �
  • Aug 9, 2013
    Scott Ales
    It's not that much of a discount. Fed. tax credit of 30% on $1200 is effectively $840 for a new out of the box unit from Tesla.
    �
  • Aug 10, 2013
    liuping
    The tax credit for the Charger is subject to AMT, so I assume many people buying Tesla's are not getting that discount...
    �
  • Aug 10, 2013
    AmpedRealtor
    Hope they didn't get the one with the bad fuses...
    �
  • Aug 10, 2013
    EricWayneAlbert
    Another thought for the TC are for when you get a second car. So those with a Model S now and have the Model X on reserve it sure will speed up when you 2 or some 3 EV's to charge. In 4-5 years when they Tesla has it's Gen 3 car out; I'm sure a lot of people will have 2 EV's and no ICE's. That will be a nice future. The TC is future proofing. Also if you share your power on plugshare or recargo those with TC will benefit for a quicker charge with a shorter time. Then quicker time with the high level 2 chargers @ 70+ amps.

    No I do not have a Tesla myself, hopefully someday. When I do get one I'll get the TC option. Yes, you won't need it all the time but when you do need it, you'll be glad you did. IMHO
    �
  • Aug 13, 2013
    Gjacobs
    Since we own two Model S' the HPWC with the new fuses is great. I do the car shuffle in the driveway to charge both every night.
    �
  • Aug 13, 2013
    neroden
    Bleah. I think they did that because not enough people were buying the HPWC. Effectively they just raised the price of the twin chargers by $1200, which is kind of nasty.
    �
  • Aug 14, 2013
    Mayhemm
    And rightly so, IMO. The HPWCs weren't exactly reliable early on (expensive fuses blowing, excessive heat buildup). I need to order two of them but I'm probably going to wait until spring (I don't actually need them until then) just to give Tesla a few months to work out any remaining issues.
    �
  • Aug 14, 2013
    gregincal
    Or they have a shortage of chargers and wanted to decrease dual charger orders. They certainly do on the european chargers, since people who ordered dual chargers are only getting single chargers with a promise to install the second charger sometime later.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2013
    AmpedRealtor
    Wait a minute... EU cars are shipping with a single charger even though customers ordered dual chargers? It doesn't sound to me like these customers should be accepting delivery of an incomplete vehicle, but that's just my opinion. I can understand the accidental omission of a spoiler or something like that, but a second charger? No way. I would never take delivery of a vehicle that did not contain all of the systems that I ordered. I would reject the car and let them make me one when they have all of the parts in stock. This type of behavior is only acceptable so long as customers continue accepting it.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2013
    sublimaze1
    You are correct. This is your opinion.

    Many of us accepted a car in 2012 that did not have the third row seats - myself included. Now, I will not engage in a debate as to which is more important - a seat structure, or an integrated electrical component. The word you used is incomplete.

    I (as did several dozen other) accepted a car without the third row which defined the car as incomplete. We chose that arrangement and workflow to obtain the car in December, rather than in April. Again, our choice. I would bet that if the EU folks were given the same choice as I did about a year ago ...

    But again, we all have our opinions.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2013
    markb1
    I think most people, including me, would have preferred not to have our cars delayed for something like this. The car is functional for most people with just a single charger, and Tesla will certainly retrofit it later, without additional cost to the buyer.

    Many of us had due bill items when we took delivery of our cars, and some were kind of major, like rear facing seats.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2013
    AmpedRealtor
    Of course it is my opinion, I can only state my opinion and nobody else's. And of course it is a choice. I am simply saying that my choice would have been different. I am not that desperate to drive this car that I will let Tesla off the hook for not planning their supply chain properly. Tesla feels it is okay to deliver a car without all of the features it was ordered with, and then inconveniencing the customer by requiring a service call to install the missing components. If more customers rejected their vehicles, Tesla would get their act together. They continue to do these things because customers let them. As you said, it is a customer choice. However, my opinion is that the choices customers are making are also enabling Tesla to continue mismanaging its supply chain and at the ultimate inconvenience of the customer.

    Again, this is my opinion because that's all I can offer. So no need to point out whose opinion this is. I think it's a given that whenever any of us writes something, it is the opinion of the person who wrote the post. Yes?
    �
  • Aug 15, 2013
    markb1
    There is an extra cost to Tesla to do these retrofits, so I'm sure they are trying to get their supply chain in order as best they can.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2013
    Galve2000
    Has anyone been able to successfully claim the Federal tax credit on the HPWC?

    There is an assumption floating around the internet that if the connector is proprietary, the EVSE does not really add to the greater charging infrastructure, and therefore does not qualify for the credit.     I thought the EVSE had to have a J1772 connector which"most" BEVs can use. And yes, at the rate Tesla is shipping the Model S, an argument can be made that the proprietary Tesla connector will be able to serve a sizable portion of BEVs on the road (even if they are only Tesla made vehicles).

    As a current Chevy Volt Owner, I opted to install a Clipper Creek CS-100 so I will be ready when the Model S with twin chargers arrives. It does a fine jo bof charging my Volt at 16 amps, and I'm just happy I won't have to do this work again.
    �
  • Aug 15, 2013
    AmpedRealtor
    Neither the IRS form nor its rules or memo regarding this credit state anything about the type of connector or that it has to fuel more than one brand of vehicle. Search IRS.GOV for the forms and publications regarding this credit and see for yourself.
    �
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