Apr 3, 2013
UMD86 That's very true. I finally read the terms and yes it's not a "Traditional LEASE" but there are least type terms eg. 12K mi per year and required maintenance which sucks. It would be very difficult to only drive 12K a year in that car.
I don't know how business owners will get to expense the payments as a lease very a financing but I'm sure Wells got several opinions from their outside tax people.�
Apr 3, 2013
orangem It would have been so much simpler if Elon simply guarantees every model S buyback value no matter where you get the loan.... Or just only guarantee the 2013 delivered cars....
Sent from my GT-P7500R using Tapatalk HD�
Apr 3, 2013
brianman Interesting "insurance policy" for Elon as well. A few thousand (?) Tesla owners wanting to make sure he's still alive in 3 years.�
Apr 3, 2013
Jhall118 I think the "backed by Elon" is pretty meaningless. Hypothetically, if Tesla went bankrupt and didn't exist anymore, Elon would probably have poured every last penny he had. If Tesla doesn't survive, why would we expect him to make good on his deal, with nothing but his word?
I don't see how it's him putting his money where his mouth is, or anything special. In fact, this news probably qualifies as the "leases available in the summer" announcement, which means there probably won't be any real sort of lease through Tesla. This makes me sad.�
Apr 3, 2013
gregincal I assume we have more than his word, but it would be interesting to know what the legal agreement really is. I assume if Tesla declares bankruptcy and Elon then declares personal bankruptcy that you'd still lose out.�
Apr 3, 2013
Longhorn92 Also, what if Tesla does fine, but Elon eventually leaves Tesla? I'm not saying that this is likely, but would his "guarantee" still stand?�
Apr 3, 2013
qwk I don't even think Elon would need to file for personal bankruptcy for you to be SOL, just Tesla. A regular lease has the leasing company as the owner, so if something happens, it's not your worry as you arent the owner of said vehicle. In this case you would be the owner, and on the hook for the rest of the balance owed. The risk is very small, and extremely unlikely though.�
Apr 3, 2013
Krugerrand At some point down the road, there will be no need of a personal guarantee by Mr. Musk. The guarantee was needed now for the financial institutes to do the deal as he wanted it to be done. In 3, 5, 8 years when the car, the company, the batteries etc... all prove to be viable then the personal guarantee won't be needed.�
Apr 3, 2013
ElSupreme Probaby not. I bet Elon has personally backed WF and US Bank loans to where they will be paid back at the end of 36 months. My guess is that Tesla has to take over that promise before Elon can leave.
But his personal guarantee is more a guarantee that Tesla will still be around (or the intrinsic value of the battery and metals will exceed 43% of purchase price) after 36 months. I have a feeling that Elon basically tied a Tesla bankruptcy with a personal bankruptcy. So if Tesla goes belly up, he will too, and will no longer be on the hook buying back Model Ss.�
Apr 3, 2013
gregincal Except that the buyback agreement is supposedly personally guaranteed by Elon Musk, so presumably you have legal recourse against him if Tesla declares bankruptcy. Otherwise what the hell is he talking about?�
Apr 3, 2013
qwk Maybe. An attorney is not cheap, and can be an expensive lesson. Wells Fargo is the shadiest bank on this planet, and BOA isn't far behind IMO. You can bet that they give a rats a$$ about your interests.
Again, very slim chance, but not a sure bet like a real lease where walking away in case of emergency has no strings attached because you don't "own" anything.�
Apr 3, 2013
ItsNotAboutTheMoney From brief reading, it may be able to be treated as an operating lease, at least for the period with the buyback clause, because it meets key criteria, including a 10% downpayment, a market-value buyback guarantee and a significant part of the value of the item still owed. After the buyback-clauses expires and the buyer accepts an agreement to gain ownership it may have to be treated differently.
Come on, this is a Tesla site, there must be a tax accountant out there familiar with this.
�
Apr 3, 2013
WarpedOne 12k limit guarantees you at least 43% buy-back value ie at least $27k for 60 kWh MS with standard options.
Additional 4k miles driven per year "costs" you a thousand bucks. 20k annual miles are guaranteed at $25k BBG. Cars with 120k miles driven after 3 years with almost EOL-ed battery are still at $20k BBG. I find this terms actually pretty good or at least reasonable.
Put yourself in a secondhand buyer's shoes. Would you rather buy a 3yo 60kWh Model S with 120k miles on the counter for 20k USD or a 3yo same model with only 40k miles for 26k USD?�
Apr 3, 2013
neroden Reference to Wells Fargo's deliberate violation of court orders:
Wells Fargo naked capitalism
Others to avoid IMO include Citi, JP Morgan Chase, and HSBC. But yeah, Wells Fargo is not to be trusted; a business relationship with them is almost certainly not worth it.
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Well, Tesla has already acquired the reputation of "typical car dealer behavior" among some of us. Perhaps they've decided to run with it. This is typical car dealer advertising, y'know?
[SATIRE]Perhaps it's a way of trying to appeal to the traditional car dealers -- "Look, really, we're just like you!"[/SATIRE]�
Apr 7, 2013
ddruz Point of clarification: Does the bank pay the 10% down or does the customer? I am confused about the various interpretations of this.
The way I read it, the bank pays the 10% down out of the tax credit, so that the customer pays nothing down and simply starts in with monthly payments.
I don't understand how it is possible, however, to transfer the tax credit from the car purchaser to the bank unless the bank is the actual owner, like in a true lease.
Would appreciate intelligent clarification of this from accountant types. Thanks.�
Apr 7, 2013
gg_got_a_tesla We have a lot of doctors of all persuasions on here�
Apr 7, 2013
Doug Martoccia The way I read it, the buyer puts the 10% down. Banks don't typically make down payments on their own loans. The buyer does receive the Federal and/or State tax credits - which can be close to the amount that the buyer is putting down. I'm assuming that the $5,000 reservation deposit counts towards the downpayment. I'm also assuming that if you finance through another bank that the 3yr/43% deal does not apply.�
Apr 7, 2013
jimbakker666 His personal guarantee probably holds as much water as his statement that the Model S can be leased for $500 a month.�
Apr 8, 2013
dsm363 Dealing with Tesla may not be for all people. I hardly think they are the only company that paints a rosy scenario in advertising and for lease terms. Is $500 realistic? Only for a few but it's possible. Just like 300 miles at 55mph is possible but not very likely for most. It's just like other car companies advertising 34mpg* (highway only). In an ideal world, everyone would advertise more realistic numbers but that's not likely. You'll have to start going after hard drive manufacturers next who advertise 1GB=1000MB and the unformatted capacity in order to inflate the capacity. It is just the way advertising works.�
Apr 18, 2013
Jeroens Tesla website down again, changes taking place. Might be an update to the Configurator but might be something else happenings�. (feels like an apple moment�
Apr 18, 2013
FredTMC Yep. Something's up. Shoot. Now I want to stay up until the site comes back up�
Apr 19, 2013
andrewket It's up. I don't see anything obvious. The perf+ package now says 21" wheels are required. Selecting perf+ automatically selects the 21" option.�
Apr 19, 2013
deonb I don't know if it was there before, but I just noticed it after the site came back up.
The design studio now by default displays the result of the TCO calculator (worse than the TCO calculator page itself since it hides the inputs used by it), and it also does not display the total price of the car nor of any of the individual options�
Apr 19, 2013
AnOutsider That was there before. I believe you need to select cash instead of finance (or whatever the verbiage is that they use)�
Apr 23, 2013
JRP3 Isn't that called "leasing", with the ranger service plan?�
Apr 23, 2013
J in MN Similar, but I envision something much more flexible and comprehensive.
I am thinking of Tesla owning the cars instead of a leasing company. I am thinking of a minimum subscription period of 3 months, rather than 36 to 60 months. Im am thinking of covering all wear items including tyres (which are specifically excluded from the service plans). And guaranteeing the minimum performance of things like the battery and other systems, not just protection against failure as per the extended service agreement.
Plus there is no leasing option at the moment in the USA, only financing with guaranteed buy-back.�
Apr 24, 2013
ModelS8794 This starts to sound like ZipCar/rental model... I wonder if anyone would be much satisfied with the cost of ownership using a rental model like that.
The initiative running in Las Vegas, started by the founder of Zappos, is probably closest to what you are envisioning here, though it's a shared car program. Project 100 | Drive. Ride. Bike. Fly. Connect.�
Aug 2, 2014
Dutchie Site is offline again. Maybe something with Model X???�
Aug 2, 2014
Majerus I hope so, or new options for model S
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The delivery times seem to be way out there.. showing december for 85p , 85 and late December for 60�
Aug 4, 2014
AnOutsider Probably just updates to coincide with the factory restarting (perhaps new ways to track your car's progress, new timeline info etc)�
Aug 4, 2014
DIL When you select performance leather under interior options, it now shows the piping color in the window. Haha, I'm sure they shut down the entire site for that.�
Aug 4, 2014
yobigd20 It's been like that for a while. Nothing new.�
Sep 7, 2014
Dutchie Website down again. Start hoping for news on MX again....�
Sep 7, 2014
bonnie Really? Maybe I'm just in denial as a way of keeping my expectations in check, but that didn't even occur to me.�
Sep 7, 2014
Perfect_Flaw Guys the site has been down many times for the past month. Probably just maintenance. Why speculate.
The only thing it proves is they need a better IT team to do what everyone else does, keep a current version of the site live and do an instant cutover to the new site. Having an e-Commerce site down at any point is a fail. I'm still blown away that Apple has to do it still.. Even Microsoft, Dell, HP, etc never need to do that.�
Sep 7, 2014
cynix Or nobody gives a flying rat's behind when these guys do it, so you never see it in the news?�
Sep 7, 2014
Perfect_Flaw Well, considering each of those companies sell much more product, generate 10X revenue (or more), are actually profitable, and are overall bigger and more successful companies- I'd disagree with you. They just have a better IT team and infrastructure obviously.�
Sep 7, 2014
cynix Sure they may sell more products, but unlike Apple or Tesla, their products do not generate as much excitement, news coverage, or fan following. Who'd refresh the Dell website 10 times an hour every day to see if they release a new laptop?�
Sep 7, 2014
Perfect_Flaw Plenty of people with existing orders or people into their products. What's so hard to swallow about it?
those companies have millions of customers.. Let's face it, Model S has sold what, 50K vehicles? Those companies sell more than 50,000 products per day.�
Sep 7, 2014
Dutchie I don't think it's a big deal if the site os offline a couple of hours. The product Tesla is selling is not done on impulse. Someone who wants to buy a Tesla doesn't mind waiting a couple of hours to place an order. This applies much less so to the products Dell or Microsoft sells.�
Sep 7, 2014
cynix My point is that people react differently to those sites being down. When Dell goes down, people simply get annoyed and complain (search "dell website down" for plenty of examples). When Apple/Tesla goes down, people start to speculate about new products/features, and this is what gets them news coverage.
I completely agree with you that Apple/Tesla should try harder to minimise downtimes. However just because you don't hear about Dell being down on the news doesn't mean they're never down.�
Sep 8, 2014
JRP3 It's all part of the marketing plan. "Let's take the site down for a little while and generate some more buzz". Free advertising, while at the same time saving money on bandwidth. Genius, as usual :biggrin:�
Sep 8, 2014
breser As the guy who did the work to make websites for certain car manufacturers (that will remain nameless) able to stay up even when upgrading the sites. This isn't as trivial as a piece of work as it seems. It might be easier for Tesla that has a much newer IT infrastructure and probably doesn't have a lot of legacy cruft. It's a rare enough occurrence that you guys talk about it. The work I was doing removed a 1-3 times a week 4 hour outage at night. I don't think Tesla has had outages anything like that. Even with a setup like I created there could be circumstances where you'd need to take an outage to do some major work . So it's entirely possible they have the capability you're suggesting they build. They just needed to do something significant enough they couldn't use it.�
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