Jul 29, 2012
smorgasbord Funny how putting non-refundable money down makes you think harder. My wife and I are now having second thoughts about getting our Model S at this moment in time. And, it's mostly interior related.
We went out this evening for dinner and grocery shopping, so instead of Roadster we took our BMW X5 (last of the pre-iDrives, btw). Since we need to lock down by Aug 13, we were talking about Model S, and my wife started ticking off the things she's going to miss (I added in my things to her list as well):
1) Steering wheel: The diameter, nice thick rim, heated, and with all the convenience buttons and stalks just right.
2) Seats: 16-way comfort seats. We especially love the way the shoulder support angle is adjustable separately from the lower back angle.
3) Steering feel. The BMW servotronic is effortless yet gives you great feel for the road at all speeds.
4) Driver Storage: Door pockets. Center console storage tray and under armrest storage.
5) Park Distance Sensors.
6) True panoramic sunroof with no bars obscuring it. Power integrated sunshade.
7) Tow hitch.
8) Drink holders in the back. Heated seats in the back. Door pockets in the back. Back of front seat pockets. Foldable arm rest in the middle of the back.
9) Headroom in the back (our son is 6'3")
10) Tilt down right hand side mirror when in reverse (does Model S have this?)
11) Visibility out the back window.
12) Vanity mirror light for passenger.
13) Luxury: Burl wood, leather covered seat backs. Black headliner.
14) Ability to run a 110 volt inverter to power a portable printer or drink cooler.
15) 4 wheel drive. Handy during heavy rain storms. We don't travel to snow areas much, so this isn't that big a deal for us. We have done Tahoe trips in the past, so it's certainly a nice to have.
Do all of these things matter? No, of course not. There are things about the X5 we don't like:
1) Nav system sucks big time.
2) Rear tailgate isn't powered
3) Rear window gets dirty after one drive.
4) Stereo system isn't well integrated with iPod, has cassette player in front.
5) It's a gas car and gets pretty bad mileage.
6) It has 106K miles and if something goes wrong, it's going to be expensive to fix.
Now, don't get me wrong here. I'm not bashing Model S or Tesla. I'm trying to decide if now is the time to get our Model S. I'm not interested in a different new car - our alternative is to make our current car last another year or so - until a more nicely equipped Model S V2 is available.
For instance, we both love the power and handling of Model S Performance. As a daily Roadster driver, I know what Tesla's electric drivetrain means, and I really don't want to have to wait another year to get that in both our main cars. I believe the air suspension will make for better ride quality as well as better handling than our X5 (which has the Sport Package, btw). And, to be fair, Model S does have some very cool features that I'm sure we'd love, like the touchscreen with 3G connectivity, keyless "start", and the frunk.
So, while it's fair to say that we're sold on Model S, right now we feel it's a tough choice whether to get our Model S V1 as scheduled, or wait for a V2. Having been in a v1.5 Roadster for a couple extended trips, I'm glad I have a v2.5 just for the interior comfort. If our X5 had 20K less miles, we'd almost certainly be waiting. As it is, I think we need to decide if we want to gamble the expense of having something go wrong with the X5, which could be costly.
If I had the money, I'd get Model S and immediately drive it down to LA to give it the Al & Eds treatment, but I suspect that'll start at $20K minimum, which is money I really don't have at this time.�
Jul 29, 2012
contaygious Model x would probably check off a lot of those boxes. 2014. Delivery right?�
Jul 29, 2012
smorgasbord I don't want another SUV, especially a large SUV. The hatchback sedan is a good form factor for us.�
Jul 30, 2012
efusco totally up to you and your priorities. All those things you mention DO matter--they're the things that make a vehicle pleasurable and comfortable to drive every day. You can bitch about exterior color, but it's irrelevant compared to the driver experience after 4, 5, 8 years in the car, but those creature comforts still matter every single day. To me there are interior features that the S is lacking that I have no doubt I'll be frustrated about and may well end up with $0.69 Wal-mart cup holders that hang on the window edge before it's said and done b/c we DO, necessarily, get fast food and eat in the car and my 3 kids are NOT going to juggling their chicken nuggest and cherry slush at the same time in my leather interior! But to me the opportunity for the best EV ever built and how I prioritize things make it worth the sacrifice of some of those creature comforts. Not to mention the benefits of some of the unique creature comforts the S offers (17" display, etc.)�
Jul 30, 2012
CapitalistOppressor Thats a very personal decision. You should do what you need to do.
Couple of points.
There is no guarantee that the Model S v2.0 will add any of those features you are pining for, let alone that Model S v2.0 will come any time soon. As I've come to realize, and have started an argument about in (Model S vs BMW 5 Series), the Model S is actually pretty severely undercutting the competition in terms of total cost of ownership.
When combined with the kinematics, it would take a pretty poor sales effort to not convince large numbers of people that the existing interior, with the opportunity console options, is "good enough" to check the basic luxury check box. For all practical purposes the entry level 528i costs 50% more than the entry level MS40, while the full MS85 is essentially the same price to own for 5 years (over longer time periods, the Model S just gets cheaper).
Personally, I agree that Tesla will likely improve the interior of the Model S in the reasonably near future. But in strict business terms, Tesla can likely move on with the existing design, devote their resources to new development, and address the interior of Model S in several years while performing a general refresh to the vehicle.
Second point. Gas ain't cheap, and its likely that Model S will save you upwards of $2,500/year in energy expenses. Whatever that number is for you, that's money out the door, regardless of whether you get hit for a big repair bill.
But, again I would bet that there will be improvement to the Model S interior in the relatively near term. My point is only that you shouldn't rely on that as a given.�
Jul 30, 2012
smorgasbord I don't believe the residual valves being bandied about, so I don't yet believe the TCO analysis. In 5 years a $75K Model S with 70K miles may not be worth what Teslanomics is saying it'll be worth. EVs are rapidly improving, new models will have better and cheaper batteries. The value of Model S in 5 years will be in comparison to what is available at that time, and that's anyone's guess right now.�
Jul 30, 2012
dsm363 Tough call. There's always the small chance that some of those on the list will be addressed by Tesla later on and made available as a paid upgrade but I agree that I wouldn't count on that in your purchase decision. There is always the one time deferment you can do which would give you the chance to do a more extended test drive with a production version.�
Jul 30, 2012
Arnold Panz Smorgasbord,
On #1, I'd just note that the stalks are identical to where they are on all Mercedes cars, and once you get used to them they are quite comfortable where they are. I got to play around with the buttons on the steering wheel and I think it will take very little time to become maximally comfortable with them. They seem to be very well designed and intuitive. I have over 100k miles on my current car and know the feeling of everything in the car being second nature, but I don't see those items as being a sacrifice with the S, just something that's different, and once gotten used to just as good or better than any current car.
Your other points are well taken and certainly things you need to consider.�
Jul 30, 2012
kevincwelch Nice post, Smorgasbord.
It's becoming very dismaying to me that deciding to move forward with this is boiling down to the creature comforts. I don't think anyone denies that the performance and handling of this car is excellent or that the technological leap forward is incredible. This will probably sway me in the direction of purchasing. But, I have to agree: no guarantee that the Model S interior or creature comforts will improve with time or that a V2 will come out (one would think so since it is probably much more expensive to keep designing new vehicles). Then the question becomes one of when it will come out.
BTW, this is not directed to you specifically, but it is a real shame that we're starting to see a lot more of this on the forum:
�
Jul 30, 2012
jerry33 You should always buy a car, audio system, computer, or any other tech-type item based on the features that are supported on the day of purchase. Not on what might be, or what should be, or what may be added later. That's a sure recipe for disappointment.�
Jul 30, 2012
richkae I am going to disagree with you 100% when it comes to computers. One primary attribute of computers is upgradability and compatibility with future upgrades. Some have it, some don't. If you want it, you factor it into your purchase decision.
Does that extend to other tech-type items? I think it does.�
Jul 30, 2012
jerry33 It's been my experience that while you can upgrade pieces of a computer, you always end up with an unbalanced system. That is if you upgrade to a faster CPU, the I/O is no longer fast enough, the memory is too slow, the system board bottlenecks everything, etc. It's always best to have a balanced system where everything matches. Upgrading all the pieces to make that happen generally means the only thing you are left with is the case and maybe the power supply.�
Jul 30, 2012
richkae 4&8. I would hope you could replace/modify the door skins and console between the front seats for a lot less than $20k - maybe even for around the cost of 1 years gasoline?
7: I will be adding a hitch to my Model S for a bike rack - but I won't be towing anything. I'll post details when successful.
10: This is just software.
12. Likely the easiest aftermarket fix ( but I still want verification that this is an issue )�
Jul 30, 2012
smorgasbord Yeah, they didn't bother me as much on the test drive as I thought they would after sitting in some Betas. The turn stalk, while in the wrong place, does stick out more than the cruise control, so for me I did hit the correct stalk. What was funny was that I thought I was hitting the wrong stalk - which was exacerbated by the turn signal sound being too low. But, I was hitting the right one, so I think you're right that I'd get used to it. How do have to ask that if adopting the Mercedes wheel and stalks saved so much design, engineering, and manufacturing, why didn't they at least keep the heated wheel control? The control marking was actually visible on some of the Betas.�
Jul 30, 2012
richkae You don't upgrade the CPU in a computer - that's like replacing the engine in a car.
You change the hard drive, mouse, keyboard, network/wireless card, memory or a new monitor.
That's like replacing the steering wheel, or the upholstery, adding a backup camera, shocks, stereo, or upgrading the software on your 17 inch touch screen to add features.�
Jul 30, 2012
richkae Redo the list and sort by things that can be improved and when they will be improved ( speculative ) - and decide how long you want to wait for each item ( or whether it can be fixed aftermarket ).�
Jul 30, 2012
jerry33 Then we're in agreement. Your definition of upgrading is just different than the one I am familiar with.�
Jul 30, 2012
smorgasbord Yeah, that was my thought this morning as well, thanks. All cars have trade-offs.�
Jul 30, 2012
Arnold Panz I didn't think the steering wheel itself was Mercedes, or at least it's certainly not an off the shelf Daimler product like the three stalks are, especially because it's much thicker. I think I like it, but it will definitely take a bit of getting used to. The stalks, and little things like the seat adjusters, side view mirror adjusters etc. are exactly as they are in the Mercedes -- Tesla seems to be simply buying them off the shelf from Daimler and installing them in the S, which is probably smart. The steering wheel is at least partially modified to be uniquely Tesla's.
I have no idea why Tesla didn't make the wheel heated if that's something that most upscale luxury brands offer. Living in Florida for the past 14 years, I just glaze over anything having to do with "heating" in the car (seats, steering wheels, mirrors etc.), though I understand why it would be a big deal for people in colder climates.�
Jul 30, 2012
ckessel I've been having some second thoughts as well, though not for the same reasons. The test drive didn't blow me away. The car handled pretty much like my RX8. I don't want or need a gigantic car, I'm really probably more in the market for something in the Gen3 size range, but the Model S is nice looking and I figured it'd be a reasonable car for me.
I'm also wary of Tesla's solvency. I don't have faith they'll ship 5k cars this year or that they'll ramp up in the way Tesla is claiming. Elon seems to be pushing the edge of running out of cash for the sake of optimizing the time to market for future cars. That's great if it works, but it's higher risk of blowing up if something causes delays. I don't want to have to lock in with unrefundable money until I see them shipping at a ramped up rate. I'd thought at P2860 I was late enough to see that, but it's not looking like it now.�
Jul 30, 2012
smorgasbord Well, that's mighty impressive considering how much bigger Model S is. While not the smallest rear seats, the RX8 is really a 2+2 so not close to the same form factor as Model S.
Well, that's probably the deal killer there. Model S isn't just a big 5 seater sedan, it's a huge 5 seater sedan. Great for interior room, bad for narrow roads and parking. I think I would need to get the doors Paint Armored to help resist parking lot dings from cars parked next to me.
BTW, I'm not worried about Tesla's solvency. Even if they only do 3500 cars in 2012, they'll be fine I think.�
Jul 30, 2012
kevincwelch Although the reservation agreement is not as specific as I would like it, you do have the option to defer.�
Jul 30, 2012
ckessel Yea, seeing it in person and driving really drove home (no pun intended) how big the car is. Particularly the width.
That's a good point. A 3 month deferral might make sense for me even though it's not the delivery time frame that I'm concerned about, but rather when I'd have to lock in relative to knowing how Tesla's production ramp is doing.�
Jul 30, 2012
joefee Elon could fund any short term cash flow issue himself ... he did it before!�
Jul 30, 2012
Jaff A couple of thoughts on this smorg...
For those folks who are not currently driving electric, their "ice whines" about interior finish, etc. seem petty to me vs. the overall joy of driving a performance electric car...driving the car is the pinnacle joy for me, cupholders be damned. I guess this is why I don't understand / agree with the folks who consistently post about the Model S's interior shortcomings...in practically all cases, they do not have much of an "experience yardstick" to measure the EV vs. ICE vehicle driving experience.
For those folks who are currently driving electric (us), have we become somewhat complacent with the "fun factor / ease of use factor" of driving electric, forgetting how bad the (total) ICE vehicle driving experience really is? (in comparison, but with a great interior!:wink::biggrin
It is an interesting dichotomy to me.
Good luck with your decision and I hope you stay onboard. :smile:�
Jul 30, 2012
artsci Couldn't agree more. If one doesn't like the interior details and those overwhelm all other considerations about this car, don't buy it.
I for one don't care so much about what defines a "luxury" interior. Certainly not details like vanity mirrors, which almost never get used by anyone I know, including all the women who ride with me. Great seats, quiet, smoothness, terrific handling, strong acceleration, low maintenance, safety, and no fossil fuel consumption are my overwhelming concerns, so to repeat, cup holders be damned.
�
Jul 30, 2012
bonnie Really good food for thought, Jaff. Thank you.�
Jul 30, 2012
Jeeps17 I understand your point, but it really depends on everyone's needs for their car. The problem in my case is that the S is being sold as a potential 7-seater (with the rear-facing seats). That implies kids (young ones in the back). That means you NEED places to put things away (including cupholders, unfortunately). I am not advocating for minivan-like storage, nor do I want to resume the storage debate, but it seems to me that the people in the second row seats have essentially been forgotten. Comments from the passengers in the various Amped events often corroborate this idea.
That is quite true, for the two people in the front seats. On a longer road trip, as a family car, not so sure about the rear passengers. Unfortunately for me that is one of the uses for which I am considering the S.
I do remain optimistic, as most of the things I feel are missing are small details (pockets behind the front seats, reading lights in the back, oh s**t handles in the back, etc...) and Tesla may have those coming. I otherwise quite like the minimalist interior.�
Jul 30, 2012
smorgasbord I'm a Roadster owner with over 13,000 EV miles logged, and I completely disagree that I'm being "petty."�
Jul 30, 2012
ckessel Given Tesla has stated the luxury market is what they're going after, you're not the audience they're hoping to capture. You're already captured, so to speak. If you want Tesla to succeed, you'll want to pray they address all of those interior things things you consider so minor because the folks that sit in the car in the showroom need to think the car is worth taking out for a drive.�
Jul 30, 2012
bonnie I read Jaff's quote, regarding those of us already driving electric & thought this part applied to you (and to me):
He didn't call you petty.�
Jul 30, 2012
dsm363 To put things in perspective look at Fisker. Some would argue a beautifully designed interior with the materials, pockets and design but issues with powertrain and user interface issues as well. Tesla seems to have the opposite problem with a so far well designed powertrain and 17" screen but so so on the interior. Ideally Tesla would have nailed everything the first time around but for many they didn't. Shooting for perfection and delivering it are two separate things. I fully expect the more minor issues like interior design can be fixed much more easily than a poorly designed powertrain or car's user interface/nav screen.�
Jul 30, 2012
vfx I would think if Tesla wants the Town Car/limo market they would absolutely need to think about backseat amenities.�
Jul 30, 2012
Tommy A couple of thoughts; first, hats off to smorgasbord for putting to paper a list comparing the Model S strengths/weakness vs his current car. This helps take the emotional factor out of the equation and allows for sound reasons to prevail in the purchase of the Model S . This is a wise example to follow for anyone having second thoughts about their purchase of an S. I believe the non refundable deposit aspect is causing you to experience "buyer's remorse"; fortunately, in this case, it is happening before you have actually purchased the car! That is good, however you decide, you will have put that emotion to rest.
Deferring would allow you to test drive the Model S for a longer period and maybe come to terms with the weaknesses you have listed for the S.�
Jul 30, 2012
Norbert Many see a difference between "premium" and "luxury". As far as I know Tesla has stated only "premium", and I'm pretty sure they don't mean that to be the same as "luxury". With "best sedan", they don't mean better than a Rolls Royce in every regard. BTW, the "every category" remark referred to the safety ratings only. (I do realize cheaper cars have vanity mirrors. However not to forget many here were complaining about headroom.)�
Jul 30, 2012
Norbert However you seem quite exceptional in that you seem to say you'd be willing to spend $20k on interior (if you had the money, as I understood it).�
Jul 30, 2012
mnx I'm glad you mentioned that Norbert... Some have taken the best car comment to mean best in every category instead of best all around etc...�
Jul 30, 2012
kevincwelch I don't think it's petty at all.
If I wanted purely the electric experience, I'd go out and buy an HTEF-3.
I want a car. I want a car that will fit my family comfortably, that I will enjoy driving to work, that has certain basic things that all my other cars have. I don't think it's petty at all, thank you.
I don't want to get into any sort of discussion about how some have been driving EVs for years and are somehow more in tune to what the basic person wants/needs when it comes to electric vehicles. So, please don't imply that there is some "experience" out there that is going to make me forget all about my petty wants and needs when I slip into the driver's seat of a Model S.
I'm sure it will be great, but I drive to work. I drive to the store. I drive to events. I don't drive to drive. Maybe I will with an EV, but I bet if that ever occurs I will want a cup holder.
If Elon wants to make the best EV out there, he has. If he wants to make the best car out there, he hasn't.
Seems pretty straight forward to me.�
Jul 30, 2012
pete8314 Stud
Seriously though, there's a few threads discussing relatively trivial features (map-reading lights, lit vanity mirrors etc). Regardless of our opinions, most of us are not target-market. We've already signed up and bought the t-shirt (literally, in my case). Target-market are the next 30,000 orders, and many of those (as I was) will be looking for a nice car in the 'premium sedan' segment, regardless of whether it's ICE or EV. Elon's goal was always to design a car people want, the EV bit was just a happy bonus. As I've said elsewhere, my (now) wife bought her last car (before we met�
Jul 30, 2012
mnx Now I understand. The Model S sure does draw a very diverse set of drivers.
I primarily drive just for the fun of it since I work from home.�
Jul 30, 2012
dsm363 I agree. Tesla needs to address these more minor features (minor in the sense they are not major engineering components like powertrain or control systems...etc) to capture the next 10,000 and beyond customers.�
Jul 30, 2012
brianman It's going to look a little weird to get e-mails "Interior Upgrade Package" offered to Sig holders in a few months (years?), with the description (paraphrased) "Now we're as good as we should have been when you bought it."
Sadly, it reminds me of Vista vs. Win7.�
Jul 30, 2012
ckessel I guess. I have no idea what the difference means or who'd be in which niche. I'd never heard of "premium" sedan before Tesla's marketing.�
Jul 30, 2012
dsm363 I agree. While it does suck if it comes to that at least it will be an option (if they do this). For some reason, the normal connivence features got overlooked and they are attempting to correct the problem but am not sure they can by production. I'd rather the few things of most concern like center console, cup holders and vanity mirror are options even if they cost more. This is not ideal and shouldn't happen but may be where we are. This is something that should be easily fixable (which is a good thing) and Tesla can incorporate them into future versions of the Model S and of course the Model X.�
Jul 30, 2012
kevincwelch I'm open to this -- I really am. Now I have a reason to get out there and drive while not thinking about all the gas I am using or the polluting I am doing.
Just saying: sometimes the small things mean a whole lot. :smile:�
Jul 30, 2012
dsm363 I took a look at the crash ratings and out of the 2012 and 2013 cars rated (I only looked at BMW, Mercedes, Porsche and Volvo) I only found the Volvo S60 to meet 5 stars in all categories. A few had 5 stars in most categories then the others were not rated for some reason or were 4 stars. The don't have Tesla on their yet but I hope they keep their 5 star rating in every category.�
Jul 30, 2012
brianman @dsm - Camaro as well, IIRC.�
Jul 30, 2012
onlinespending Good post Smorgasbord. You point out some real deficiencies with the existing Model S interior without giving Tesla a lot of heat for it. Those are all valid points and something many people even on this forum (which is mostly composed of ardent Tesla supports who have been waiting as long as 3 years for this car) have raised issue with. So it's clear Tesla needs to address these things to win over more than just the early adopter die-hards. I have no doubt that they will, and for that reason I am heavily leaning towards delaying my purchase until late 2013.�
Jul 30, 2012
strider Be careful with this. The battery will need to be replaced at some point so much of this savings will go towards a new battery. Assuming a $12k battery it will take 5 years (at current gas prices) to pay for that. At this point we simply don't know how long these batteries will last but based on Roadster owner experiences 5 years is a safe number. As Roadsters age if the batteries keep performing then that truly is money in the bank. Also if gas prices go up and electricity goes up less then that also helps the math. But I wouldn't count gas savings as found money.�
Jul 30, 2012
richkae Trying to get back to the original purpose of the post - what to wait for and how long:
1) Steering wheel: The diameter, nice thick rim, heated, and with all the convenience buttons and stalks just right.
- I bet Tesla adds a heated steering wheel, possibly as early as 2013. This seems like it would be a popular option in Norway and northern europe. Will it be possible to retrofit to a 2012? You would have to plumb a connection in the dash. Not easy, but doable.
2) Seats: 16-way comfort seats. We especially love the way the shoulder support angle is adjustable separately from the lower back angle.
- I bet the seats don't change any time soon.
3) Steering feel. The BMW servotronic is effortless yet gives you great feel for the road at all speeds.
4) Driver Storage: Door pockets. Center console storage tray and under armrest storage.
- I think Tesla will revise the interior for 2013 or 2014. The drop in opportunity console will fix some of this. Replacing the current fixed console with the 2013 part might be possible. This could also be remedied with custom work. Door pockets would be nice and could be easily added to 2013 models, I wonder what replacing a 2012 door skin with a 2013 one would run.
5) Park Distance Sensors.
6) True panoramic sunroof with no bars obscuring it. Power integrated sunshade.
- I doubt the panoramic roof changes at all in the next couple of years.
7) Tow hitch.
- Aftermarket.
8) Drink holders in the back. Heated seats in the back. Door pockets in the back. Back of front seat pockets. Foldable arm rest in the middle of the back.
- Same as #4. They could improve this a lot in 2013. No idea if heated seats or foldable arm rest is on their radar - even if they are adding them to a 2012 would be prohibitive.
9) Headroom in the back (our son is 6'3")
- Once the headliner is minimal thickness, this will not change.
10) Tilt down right hand side mirror when in reverse (does Model S have this?)
- If it does not have already, this is an easy software upgrade.
11) Visibility out the back window.
- Will not change.
12) Vanity mirror light for passenger.
- Trivial fix, even aftermarket.
13) Luxury: Burl wood, leather covered seat backs. Black headliner.
- No idea if this will change. Seems unlikely in 2013, maybe later.
14) Ability to run a 110 volt inverter to power a portable printer or drink cooler.
15) 4 wheel drive. Handy during heavy rain storms. We don't travel to snow areas much, so this isn't that big a deal for us. We have done Tahoe trips in the past, so it's certainly a nice to have.
- This will possibly be available on 2014 models - about the same time as the Model X.�
Jul 30, 2012
ckessel Plus, EVs prices are at a premium today compared to ICE cars (if it weren't, we wouldn't be talking about accepting any non-powertrain compromises for the sake of an EV). Thus, it could be argued the gas savings is what's helping bring the EV back to competitive costs.�
Jul 30, 2012
Norbert I think that's a reasonable personal opinion, but very much disagree with the "straightforward" part. Obviously, it isn't "better" than a pick-up truck, Bugatti Veyron, or Rolls Royce.
The Model S now places more emphasis on things like cornering, absence of body roll, acceleration, optional air suspension, quality of electric power train, and so on.
It has achieved those strengths in a development time so short that many considered it impossible. Developing an interior of some level may require its own time and resources, and is not as crucial to proving the viability of electric cars as a technology. Elon acknowledged this concern by pointing out that the interior engineering group has been "beefed up". However that doesn't mean that Tesla ought to be condemned if the Model S doesn't have all those interior features which one or the other person may consider crucial. It still has many advantages over a 5-series, and may still be the "better" car for many, even without the electric/gasoline difference in environmental/oil consumption terms.
(BTW, I always think it looks funny when people look up in the vanity mirror. It looks much better when they use a pocket mirror (if that's what they are called). Plus the dome light, if that works.)
(Another BTW: Model S does have #10, AFAIK.)�
Jul 30, 2012
strider Mechanically that isn't true. Model S performs as well as its similarly priced BMW 5-series equivalent except for top speed which doesn't matter in the real world. MSP is just as fast as an M5 and costs the same. Same goes as you move down the performance line. Yes, there needs to be more luxury improvements which must come over time to achieve true parity (and hopefully at the same price point) but that's all you're sacrificing at this point.�
Jul 30, 2012
strider Yeah, everyone I know just uses their phone camera for this nowadays�
Jul 30, 2012
ckessel Uh, yea, I thought that was exactly what I said with the bit about "non-powertrain compromises".�
Jul 30, 2012
dennis I'm sure I'll get flamed but I felt compelled to step in here. I've owned a Fisker Karma since January and have driven it 5000 miles. The powertrain has been rock solid for me and most Karma owners. Any early issues were quickly addressed under warranty, with great service from the dealer network.
There may be Tesla Model S failures. The anti-EV community will step in and exaggerate them as they have done to Fisker. It is important that the pro-EV community not jump on that bandwagon just because you may view it as a competing brand (which it isn't!).
You are right that the UI and Nav are sub-standard, but they work. And as they say, it is only a small matter of programming to improve that, since it is software. The interior, on the other hand, is beautiful and functional, and includes map and vanity mirror lights. :biggrin:�
Jul 30, 2012
Andrew Wolfe Heated steering wheels are electric and under 20W. No big deal to add one.�
Jul 30, 2012
NigelM A great compliment to Tesla that you're still signed up for a Sig Performance.�
Jul 30, 2012
dennis Yes, Sig Performance will be my wife's daily driver, replacing a Lexus RX400h. Karma is my daily driver.
These are the 7th and 8th cars that we have owned where we made deposits before the car was released (or in some cases announced!). I'm well aware of the issues associated with being an early adopter. Interestingly, the Karma has been more reliable than my E39 M5 (camshaft failure at 1300 miles) and E60 M5 (VANOS oil pump failure and numerous SMG faults).
We're looking forward to the Model S experience, but have our eyes wide open.�
Jul 30, 2012
dsm363 Glad to have your input, thanks. No one will flame you for stating your experiences or thoughts with your car. Sorry, I wasn't trying to bash the Karma just used it to compare since there were at least a few issues (Consumer Reports car one of them) but as you said they are working them out which is great. It is a beautiful car and it seems like the interior is great too from the pictures I've seen and from what you and others have said.
If you compare the price of the Karma vs. the Model S performance they are similar but I'd imagine the battery costs are less than half for the Karma vs. the Model S Performance. I don't know what the margins are on both cars but it likely leaves a lot more money in the Karma to throw at the interior quality. This doesn't explain away lack of cup holders or vanity mirror light (if that's confirmed) though.
My parents are replacing a RX400h as well with a Signature Model S too. Excellent advice too. This is definitely a riskier purchase than a time tested Mercedes but I think the risk is worth it obviously and a lot more fun.�
Jul 30, 2012
Norbert No, I wouldn't see Tesla as a competing brand.
That's why I don't, in general (there might be a small exception or two) criticize Fisker/Karma/GM/Volt other than when comparing plugin-hybrid vs. pure-electric concepts on a higher level (or as a consequence of GM's better-than-electric marketing).
Well, maybe you are just being humorous, however given that the limited info we have so far is that Tesla made these changes in an effort to improve headroom (and I'd guess perhaps not having the time to replace the functionality in a different way), it's hopefully fair to point out that according to what I hear, the Karma's (rear) headroom, and interior space in general, is limited. In so far as that is correct, the Karma has not solved the problem Tesla is trying to solve.�
Jul 30, 2012
Velo1 You can add power folding side mirrors to the list. We have a living space above our garage, and as a result there is a post/column right in the center of the garage. There is room enough for my wife and I to park a car on each side. However, after seeing the total width of the Model S with mirrors extended, prior to pulling into the garage we'll have to exit the car and manually fold in the passenger's side mirror just to safely park in the garage. Not what I thought we'd have to do with a car in this price range.�
Jul 30, 2012
Soflauthor It's looking more and more likely that there will be an aftermarket solution (the center console insert) for item #4 NLT 1Q13. I know, because I'm finalizing the preliminary design and beginning to develop fabrication strategy -- fast tracked. BTW, the CCI will cost considerably less than a custom solution which if done correctly will run you between $1400 and $2100 (at least in my area). My goal is installation in three minutes or less (after opening the box and unpacking). Stay tuned.�
Jul 30, 2012
Robert.Boston Consider backing into your garage, which will keep the mirror in front of the column. You need to back in or out, so why not in?�
Jul 30, 2012
smorgasbord Well, that's not the type of center console I'm looking for. I don't want to lose the ability to put a purse or bag between the seats, I just want to add a tray or two for things like phone, wallet, candy. In my view, door pockets are the biggest thing missing, especially considering just how thick the doors are.�
Jul 30, 2012
dennis That is correct, the Karma is not trying to be a family sedan. It couldn't be with the limited luggage space. It is trying to be a PHEV sport sedan, and IMO it has succeeded. There is plenty of room for the front seat passengers, and rear space is adequate (think 3 series BMW). The couple we took to dinner in San Francisco (100 mile round trip) thought the rear seats were comfortable, and the guy is 6'. But you wouldn't want to be in the back for a long trip.
I'm going to Tahoe with a buddy this weekend for a golf tournament. Two golf bags in the trunk, 2 suitcases in the back seat. The car works great for my lifestyle, which is why it is my daily driver.�
Jul 30, 2012
spatterso911 Nicely put, Kevin.�
Jul 30, 2012
PRJIM My wife plans on using her purse as the "center console" and is thrilled by this prospect. If this were to be my car I am not sure how I could live without pockets for pens, mints, receipts etc. Maybe Tesla should include a knapsack/purse to sit in that center space.�
Jul 30, 2012
Velo1 I will probably do that, which is where the back-up camera will help. Too bad there are no proximity sensors when backing up to also help.�
Jul 30, 2012
MikeK Do we have any information that they actually are pursuing this market? I do think the car is well suited to it in some ways, but not in others:Not trying to criticize the car over any of these factors, but I just don't see it as a Town Car sort of vehicle.
- The rear doors are narrow at the bottom, which makes getting in and out of the rear seat a bit awkward
- Because of the battery pack, there are no "footwells" in the back. The floor is flat, and the result is that the seating position is a bit strange, with your knees higher than in a Town Car. (One of my friends who came on my Get Amped drive commented about this.)
- Headroom in the back is not great
- Legroom in the back is good, but not extensive
�
Jul 30, 2012
contaygious Hopefully we can get some lines for backing up on the camera screen. This is how i backup into my narrow garage currently and I will only have 4 inches on each side.�
Jul 30, 2012
AustinPowers Re: driving the car is the pinnacle joy for me, cupholders be damned.
I can follow you if you are talking about the roadster or sports cars in general.
But in everyday traffic, especially in a family car, which is what the Model S is, driving is not really what you can call "joy" at all.
Perhaps that will be the final way things turn out to be. Tesla will mostly sell P85's to those who are affluent enough to buy the car for the "joy of driving" factor, while families buy different cars after all, when they find out the Model S doesn't really suit their needs. Hopefully Tesla can survive on the money they make if that turns out to be the case.�
Jul 30, 2012
Norbert Wait a minute....�
Jul 30, 2012
AustinPowers Lucky you. Congrats.
Unfortunately that doesn't hold true for the majority of people - and surely for the majority of those people Tesla is trying to attract to buying the Model S.
I would love to be able to work from home, but that's not possible, which is why I have to keep putting up with commuting two and a half hours each day by car and train. Which in turn is why I need a comfortable car with sporty acceleration and handling, and one that I can take to the shops, ship the family around in, and even take on the big holiday trip.
My current car can do all that. The Model S in it's projected form was supposed to be able to do that as well. In its current incarnation, unfortunately it can't.
The only thing my car can't do for me is drive electric.
Oh and about all those remarks about not having to pay for gasoline any more. Nice thought, right, but since when is electricity free? Only if you own a house and have the opportunity to install solar panels. And many potential buyers don't have that opportunity, either because they don't own a house or because their house is not technically suited for installing solar panels.�
Jul 30, 2012
AustinPowers Ok, I did, now what? ;-)�
Jul 30, 2012
Bearman Just wondering what exactly prevents you from doing that in the current incarnation?�
Jul 30, 2012
Norbert Now I am going to ask you why the Model S is less fun to drive than really everyone who test drove (or even -rode) it says. How does being a family car take away from that?�
Jul 30, 2012
AustinPowers I don't think we are condemning Tesla, I certainly don't have that intention. I want Tesla to succeed because I want to drive a great EV one day, and Tesla at the moment is the only company close to achieving that goal for me.
That is why I am voicing concerns that I think will be vital to many potential customers.
I especially try to give a Non-American's perspective into the equation, as most here, no offence, don't have a clue of what Tesla will be up against here in Europe, if they want to sell at least a sizeable amount of cars here. I don't want to be negative or bash anything, but point out things that to Americans might not matter but which do matter over here in trying to sell cars.�
Jul 30, 2012
Norbert I think it is great if someone whose life style can't be met by an all-electric car, then chooses a Karma or Volt instead of an ICE. Congrats!
(Only in some cases, when I get the feeling that someone promotes them at the expense of all-electrics, I might wonder if I'd be as humble in that situation as I'd hope.)
P.S.: Long trips: I guess that's when the gasoline engine comes on...�
Jul 30, 2012
AustinPowers You misunderstood my remark
"But in everyday traffic, especially in a family car, which is what the Model S is, driving is not really what you can call "joy" at all."
Perhaps my English just isn't good enough, not being a native speaker, but the point I was trying to make with the above sentence was
1) "Driving in everyday traffic (at least in Germany), with all its traffic jams, congested roads, small (if available at all) parking spaces with constant risk of dings and scratches, is no joy"
2) "Driving in a family car (with your family, say wife and two small kids, onboard) isn't adding to the joy of driving either"
3) "The Model S is a family car for all intents and purposes, albeit a sporty one with good handling"
Combine 1), 2) and 3) and you should get my drift. I didn't mean to say driving to Model S wasn't fun. I wouldn't even know, not having been able to see let alone drive a Model S over here in Germany. All I have seen are various test drive videos on Youtube, and from those the Model S does indeed seem to be a lot of fun to drive. If you are able to drive just for fun, like quite a few on this board seem to be, then you certainly won't have a problem.�
Jul 31, 2012
Norbert That seems a "vital" description of what you are doing here.�
Jul 31, 2012
Norbert Last time I was in Germany I was surprised about the number of large Audis and similar cars. I was wondering about who said the economy wasn't going well...�
Jul 31, 2012
AustinPowers I can't take it to the shops as it is to large to park (come to think of it it is almost too large for my garage), I can't take it on the big holiday trip because of the limited range, to name but two reasons.�
Jul 31, 2012
AustinPowers That's a joke I don't understand.
Who said the German economy wasn't going well at the moment? It is on the downturn though.
And by the way, most of these large Audis, Mercs and Beemers are company cars, not privately owned. Fleet sales (expecially of the popular station wagons) make up a very large part of the sales of the higher end models.
And if you compare the Model S to an E-class, 5-series or A6 you will see that it is quite a bit larger.�
Jul 31, 2012
dsm363 While it's not on par with a S class interior, it is 10.5" shorter than the new S class but still wider (the S class is 73.7" wide which I think does not include the mirrors).
The Model S is less than 2" wider and 5" longer than the E-class. Would that really be a make or break difference in the city? I can see the difference between an E-class and a Smart car in the city being a big help but I don't do a lot of that kind of city parking.�
Jul 31, 2012
GSP Just wait for the aftermarket to make a 3-4' stretch limo version. It will be awesome. This treatment makes even the Leaf look awesome.
Nissan Leaf
GSP�
Jul 31, 2012
Brian H A few Elonisms:
"best car in all the dimensions that matter" (safety, power, economy, reliability, driveability).
"that's why we've really beefed up our interior design engineering team" details, details, ....
"We'll break even at around 8,000 sales"
"We don't need additional financing. Any added funds raised would be to speed up future products" etc.
"Production next year will be at least 20,000. I'm expecting up to 50% more than that"
The above are paraphrases from memory, mostly from the Q2 Q&A.
I blame Elon's personal tastes for the dark exterior colours and austere, minimalist interior. It's almost impossible to properly imagine others not sharing your core values, and Elon just doesn't grok how others view some things.�
Jul 31, 2012
GSP I think you will find that electric drive makes driving in traffic jams much more pleasant than a manual or automatic ICE. After driving a Volt for a year and a half, I find perfectly good ICE cars just not good enough. I think it is due to several factors:
1) no vibrations from the ICE at idle. Perfectly still an quiet at a stop, with the electric A/C providing cool air if needed, or the heated seats providing comfort in the winter. Range goes UP in slow speed traffic, even if start-stop and AC or heated seats on. The Volt's electric AC is perfectly smooth and silent (except for the fan), unlike the electric AC in the Priuses that I have driven.
2) regen on the accelerator means that you don't need to bother with all the trouble of moving your foot to use the brakes. I never realized this was a "problem" until I did not have to do it anymore.
3) electric motors provide instant response and fine grained control of torque and speed, much better than any ICE and this assists parking lot and traffic jam maneuvers.
However the Model S is a classic "Yank Tank" and it's size is likely to be awkward for European cities. You may want to wait for the Mercedes E-cell (B-class with Tesla drivetrain) or Tesla's "Gen3 BlueStar."
GSP�
Jul 31, 2012
Brian H Yep; if you go and measure clothing, armor, furniture, etc. from the eras when Urp's cities were built, you realize that Urpians have inherited cities and infrastructure built by dwarves. Then sugar got cheap, and bodies started to grow all the way up!�
Jul 31, 2012
shiitake I'm a Model S reservation holder, and have been for more than two years (yikes). I currently drive a BMW 5 series. I'm very much looking forward to my Tesla but the size of the car seriously worries me also. I can barely get my current car into my garage (and yes, in the middle of Berlin I'm lucky to even HAVE a garage, and ditto in SF where I used to live), and I have a small child that I ferry around whose door I can barely open once we're inside. I really do NOT have 4 extra inches to spare, width-wise, if I'm to be able to actually open the door and get my kid in/out. There's no way I can first stop and get my 3 year old out and leave her out on the street while I park. I don't care much about cup holders and so on, I do not find the BMW interior to be the be-all and end-all of luxury, but the simple size of the Tesla is going to massively difficult. If I street park then I won't be able to charge the car, not to mention the scratches and so on.
I really wish it was possible to get a decent four door sedan that's both comfortable and fun to drive and isn't a big hulking beast.
I know there's the future smaller/cheaper Tesla sedan down the line, but I don't want something cheaper (and slower and of lesser quality).�
Jul 31, 2012
jerry33 I've never heard anywhere that slower and of lesser quality is part of the Bluestar plan. With fewer materials used because the car will be smaller it will be less costly to make and therefore less expensive.�
Jul 31, 2012
dennis In fact I wouldn't be able to make the trip to Tahoe from Silicon Valley in the Model S without stopping somewhere to charge. It's 250 miles one way with 7000 feet of climb, all at freeway speeds. Doesn't make the Model S bad, just not appropriate for this type of trip. Nor for the 300 mile round trip I did on a Sunday to go to my daughter's volleyball tournament. No place to charge at the high school in the Central Valley.
There are, in fact, people who will prefer PHEV to BEV. That is still good for Tesla, as it puts more electric-powered cars on the road, and maybe their next car will be a Tesla. It was for my family. :biggrin:�
Jul 31, 2012
shiitake My understanding is that the Bluestar is a cheaper, more mass market car than the Model S. Something like the 3 series instead of the 5 series, or the C class versus the E class, if we're talking about BMW & Mercedes. I'm only guessing on the slower part, but hey, a $30K car versus a $50K car out of the same company is going to be a lesser car. Just because a car is physically smaller doesn't make all the parts cheaper.
And don't get me wrong, I fully support a electric vehicle available to a larger percentage of the driving population. Couldn't happen fast enough, in fact. But for me personally, I like a nice car. When I had to commute 80 miles a day, I had a Prius. I got all the best options it had, and I didn't enjoy the ride because even so it felt cheap and plastic-y. It WAS plastic. The console rattled when I'm drove 65 on the freeway. It wheezed when I was just trying to go up a hill. No amount of gasoline savings made it actually fun to drive, and I got rid of it as soon as my commuting year was over. I've been hoping for past several years that the Model S is going to be the perfect car for me, and I would be really, really unhappy if the extra width makes it impossible. I know 4" is not a big deal in the Valley, where the roads are wide and nobody even needs to learn to parallel park.�
Jul 31, 2012
vfx There are many exterior back proximity "systems" that can help. Floor chocks. Tennis ball hanging on a string to touch the rear glass, laser reference marks.�
Jul 31, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla smorg, I was really looking forward to your take on "Model S Reflections"
Roadster Reflections�
Jul 31, 2012
pguerra The real problem is the width and the lack of motorized folding side mirrors!
I'll have to open the windows and fold in the driver side and passenger side mirrors so the Model S will fit in my single-car garage. Manually folding side mirrors are so lame!
I know this for a fact b/c my Hybrid Escalade barely fits when I fold the motorized side windows in. The width of the Hybrid Escalade with folded-in mirrors is 79".
I honestly am upset at Tesla for not thinking about these important features; it almost nullifies the amazing engineering job they did with the drivetrain and battery tech, etc. More and more I regret this purchase.�
Jul 31, 2012
vfx 
�
Jul 31, 2012
Velo1 I could not agree more. Lack of power folding mirrors is a huge oversight, IMO.�
Jul 31, 2012
Tommy You have posted in several threads about your displeasure with the S. Please take what I am suggesting in the spirit of good intentions/advice: Contact Tesla (GB perhaps direct) and see if you cannot back out of your purchase without incurring the penalty of losing all of your deposit; there are many I am sure waiting to fill the vacant slot. I am suggesting "quiet diplomacy" between you and Tesla may be the best path in solving you're unhappiness with the S.�
Jul 31, 2012
brianman As I understand it, the goal is to make it more inexpensive (price alone) but not cheaper (price and quality).�
Jul 31, 2012
brianman Excellent advice, Tommy. The more "non-quiet" the diplomacy, the less likely Tesla can or will be willing to accommodate.�
Jul 31, 2012
MikeK I, for one, would be more than happy to take your Sig slot, provided I can change to Signature Red. ;-)�
Jul 31, 2012
FlasherZ Not to mention that, if you insisted, you have a legal ground to stand on should you be willing to take it that far... you placed a non-refundable deposit on a product that had specific features; they changed those features, and you should have protection under various federal and state bait-and-switch laws. Tesla will likely be accommodating to avoid the negative publicity that would come from such an event.�
Jul 31, 2012
pguerra You're right. Thanks.
Also: I am very humbled and grateful that I have been blessed with the opportunity and means to make such a vehicle purchase. I'm not some sort of high maintenance celebrity demanding things; I'm just a regular guy living an everyday life for which I thought the Model S would fit my lifestyle. I'm not trying to nit-pick a complex engineering miracle vehicle and actually I'm very pro-Tesla and am rooting for their success. But, these issues are important to me, an everyday guy, and I just can't understand some of Tesla's design decisions. As I think about it, I can't help but suspect that these problems have a direct or indirect relationship to those two engineers that suddenly just "quit".�
Jul 31, 2012
AustinPowers At first I laughed about this comparison, but actually it is almost too true.�
Jul 31, 2012
AustinPowers +1 on that.�
Jul 31, 2012
vfx
From that time:
�
Jul 31, 2012
jomo25 I could be wrong, or maybe it's changed since I saw it, or maybe its just speculation, but I swore that it Power Folding Mirrors was going to be added as a feature. If not immediately, it would be available very soon, and possibly even retrofitted. Am I outdated or dreaming?�
Jul 31, 2012
dsm363 Peter Rawlinson was in charge of chassis engineering which was done when he left according to Tesla at least. The other person sounds like they were let go. They likely had nothing to do with the interior.
It sounds like cup holders and the interior light issue are your two major complaints. While they might be annoying they can hopefully be fixed relatively easy. Tesla showed that drop in rear center arm rest so that may help. It takes up the center seat. The interior from lighting may be enough that you'll be able to at least see what you're doing. I've never owned a car that had read lighting so haven't missed it.
Good luck.�
Jul 31, 2012
jerry33 My understanding was that Nick Sampson and Peter Rawlinson worked together for many years--long before they came to Tesla. When Mr. Rawlinson left it was almost a given that Mr. Sampson would leave as well. I don't think that too much should be read into this.�
Jul 31, 2012
dsm363 I don't think Sampson did anything wrong but thought Elon said that Tesla no longer required his services after Rawlinson left as they had moved on to a new phase in development.�
Jul 31, 2012
Arnold Panz Rawlinson had nothing to do with the interior. Check out these videos from YouTube:
I don't understand 99% of what he's talking about, but it's clearly not about interior design, backseat lights, cupholders, vanity mirror lights or auto-folding side view mirrors.�
Jul 31, 2012
kevincwelch Do the mirrors at least manually fold?
I can fold in my Accord's mirrors. I'm not really missing the auto-folding component.�
Jul 31, 2012
kevincwelch Additionally, it seems as though this article was from January 2012? Long time ago...�
Jul 31, 2012
pguerra I'll be at the Dallas Get Amped event. I'll check unless someone else knows for sure.�
Jul 31, 2012
VolkerP Kevin,
yes the mirrors do manually fold. By the time your reservation number comes up, rumors have it that mirrors will fold electrically.�
Jul 31, 2012
kevincwelch There are no rumors, only Zuul.
Seriously, thanks for the answer to my question. On the other note, I'd like to think that many things would change before my number comes up. Initially I was discouraged by my higher number; now I am pleased with my position in light of recent developments.�
Jul 31, 2012
stopcrazypp The spec sheet says "Manual folding side mirrors".
http://http://www.teslamotors.com/models/specs
I think it's an extremely good thing to have a number out of at least the first 100. Judging from the Roadster's history, there will be plenty of changes that will happen during the production of those cars (they will get likely get retrofitted afterwards, but the stress level of the owners will be high during the change).
I though that rumor only applied to the Euro spec Model S.�
Jul 31, 2012
vfx The S can't fit inside the LA showroom without the mirrors folding.�
Jul 31, 2012
digitaltim Totally off topic, but the Zuul comment made me think that Zombo may also be able to help: ZOMBO
I think that is the real answer to getting all of the features/functions we want in v1.0.
Showing my Internet age... ;-)�
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