May 16, 2016
callmesam Your reading comprehension isn't too good. What I'm talking about are FAST CHARGERS. The reason I mention them is that there are NO OTHER CHARGERS IN CHICAGO THAT ARE FAST.
Is that clear enough?�
May 16, 2016
Garlan Garner Maybe it isn't....lol. Insults will get you no where with me. LOL. I'm going to keep super charging my car..... that's the bottom line.
Hopefully others that read this thread received some good links and info that I've listed. Use PlugShare, EVtrip, SuperChargers and etc. to decide what best fits your agenda.�
May 16, 2016
callmesam If you want to go from empty to full in less than an hour, you only have one choice: Supercharging.
If you don't mind staying in one place for many hours, then you have lots of choices.�
May 16, 2016
Booga Supercharging is the only thing that's reasonably simple, in my opinion. Except for instances where I'm going off the beaten path (camping in a remote place, etc.), I would prefer if 100% of my charging is either at home or a supercharger. I don't want to bother with anything else. A hotel might be the only exception, because I really don't want to have to pick my hotel based on ability to charge overnight.�
May 16, 2016
eisbock Is that station at a hotel or something? Do you ever have to wait for somebody else? I'm curious because I would love to find a "hidden" supercharger that's never too busy.�
May 16, 2016
stopcrazypp It's fine if you don't care, but I'm merely illustrating why Tesla might care and why the cost isn't as insignificant as you put it. In case you missed it, Tesla issued a letter on this before:
Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving Notes
Supercharging letter from Tesla 8-13-2015
And if you are talking about the Model 3 (I presume you are not a S60 owner), we don't know yet what they will do with that yet.�
May 16, 2016
stopcrazypp Good luck doing that. All the manufacturers charge $700-750 when they have DC charging available separately (although recently the trend is to bundle with other packages or by raising the price of the car). And this is for CHAdeMO/CCS that provides 125A (while Tesla's provides 370A, 3x the current).
The JdeMO DC charging retrofit costs $2999 for the RAV4 EV and Roadster (installation and miscellaneous costs extra). If you can do the same same for $50, I would suggest you take up that project.
Tesla Roadsters Charge At CHAdeMO Thanks To JdeMO - Video - Inside EVs�
May 16, 2016
JeffK Of course they do, DC quick chargers are faster than alternatives therefore desirable. Last time I checked most manufacturers charge an arm and a leg for something desirable.
Heck I've seen $2000 GPS packages added to cars. It doesn't mean GPS is $2000.�
May 16, 2016
Booga I have no clue what Tesla will do... let me just comment on what I would be okay with. I realize that there might be regulatory issues and such, but put all of that aside for this.
I would be perfectly fine with free supercharging capability, but paying a little bit for the power. I have no issue paying. The real capability I'm after is the ability to charge my car on major highways so that I can enable long distance travel without range anxiety.
Again, regulatory issues aside... I would be happy with paying 12 cents per kwh of charge, or whatever the appropriate rate is. It would be great if it was something simple like $7.50 for 60kwh.
By doing this, I don't have to worry about my usage ever being abusive to their system. Let me charge for in city use if I want, or let me charge for highway usage if that's my desire. I'm hoping that my daily driving will be covered by charging at home and then I'll use a supercharger if I'm on a long trip or if I don't have charging at home for whatever reason.
I'm not 100% sure about where I'll be living and so, right now, I'm only counting on having a 110V line available.
If they charge you for use and not up front, it also enables them to be able to place superchargers in more convenient locations - parking lots at shopping centers, for example. The one feature that I think they would be good about would be a wireless reader built into the plug, which means that as soon as you plug in, it ties it to your account and bills you without the need for a silly CC reader or anything.�
May 16, 2016
stopcrazypp But we are discussing what proportion Tesla is assigning to the onboard equipment out of that $2500, and the $700-750 by other manufacturers for 3x less power charging equipment shows the $1400 estimate by Mike is not unreasonable.
Also see the second paragraph. That $3000 DC charging retrofit is not by a manufacturer, but by Quickchargepower (Tony Williams). They charge $1000 total (a $500 premium) for the JESLA AC connector (this is a $500 Tesla Mobile Connector with J1772 connector retrofitted). If the DC charging only costs $50 to implement, I doubt they would charge $3000 for the DC retrofit. DC charging is considerably more complex than you imply.�
May 16, 2016
callmesam What you quoted has nothing to do with cost and everything to do with crowding.
JB Straubel: "We offer this free to our customers. We thought about this for a long time, and the energy cost is very low, it's more about the cost of convenience of having access to the infrastructure. A full charge or even 50% charge in a Model S is less than $10....wasn't worth the hassle of dealing with a whole different billing structure. And in the future, of course, it will make sense to figure out how to phase in some kind of financial transaction here, but it's going to take time. And for the beginning, a million cars, this is a viable way to do it (supercharging)."
Tesla CTO JB Straubel Discusses Electric Cars - Video
As a funny aside, the first post from that thread on the Supercharging letter is someone who doesn't live near a Supercharger and (claims) to never have overstayed a charge. lol.
Let's circle back in 2019, but in the meantime #DriveFree.�
May 16, 2016
Garlan Garner Fantastic post!!!!!! This post lines up exactly with Tesla Sales agents statements.�
May 16, 2016
JeffK JESLA AC connector has an inverter which converts AC to DC then feeds it into the car via the connector which itself is nearly $100 depending on where they are purchasing it ... the equipment change on the vehicle costs $0 because the vehicle already came with the necessary hardware.
The Tesla supercharger has the inverter built into the charger and the connector on the charger as well.
The under $50 in hardware would be inside the vehicle, it does not include an inverter because your car has a DC battery already. You're bypassing the onboard chargers. You just need to adjust voltage and current appropriately for your battery and adjust with battery temp. from a preexisting DC source (like a supercharger).
You must charge the battery itself with DC, it's unavoidable because you can't send AC directly to the battery. Therefore the cars will always have the necessary equipment internally. (whether they have a connector and can handle varying loads is another story, but it's in their best interest to charge fast).
callmesam sums up the supercharger issue perfectly.�
May 16, 2016
callmesam I think most of the people "warning" you are trying to prevent overcrowding, as if 100% of owners would suddenly Supercharge instead of charging at home. This is a misplaced fear. But fear makes people do strange things.�
May 16, 2016
stopcrazypp The letter I quoted mentions superchargers being for long distance and not for daily charging. This shows Tesla does care about this issue (whether the issue is cost or crowding). As for JB's statement in April last year, that only talks to consideration of a pay per use method, not whether they would discourage daily charging on superchargers. The letters discouraging daily charging came out in August 2015, 4 months after JB's quoted statement.�
May 16, 2016
HanSolo What I want to know is why some people really want to resort to supercharging all the time when they can charge at home. Supercharging all the time could not be very good for battery life and these things are still not cheap. Assuming the cheapskate mentality as our framework here, it would be illogical if you are accelerating battery degradation.�
May 16, 2016
callmesam You act as if the letter is a new restatement of the entire policy of Supercharging, past, present and future.
It can't be.
You stated that cost was a factor. Here's Elon Musk at that same Shareholder's meeting "But it is free long distance forever and it�s basically built into the cost of the car. And based on what we�re seeing in terms of the economics, it looks quite supportable."
The opposite is true.
When we point out that Superchargers are intended for locals without home charging, you circle back to the letter.
Sorry, but that's not the way it works. The letter is not dispositive on all use cases.
Even in the statement and letter, occasional Supercharging by locals with home charging is a "cool" use.
And daily Taxi use.
Might I suggest that you start a thread asking Tesla what the word "occasional" means.�
May 16, 2016
stopcrazypp I think you might be confusing me with some other poster. To make it clear, I already said Tesla policy explicitly allows locals with no home charging to use superchargers. In fact, I brought it up before you did.
As for the second point, I am not saying occasional use by locals with home charging should be banned. I am saying superchargers are not for regular charging by locals in that situation (as in doing practically all of their local charging on superchargers, when they can charge at home for the same).
I only bring up cost in the context of the conversation with Garlan about assigning value to the network vs the $2500 option price. People like to handwave away the costs by looking at the cost of a single charge, but once you do the math over the lifetime of the car, it shows a completely different picture.
All of these points have been discussed at length in the other threads (which is why I initially didn't want to jump into this conversation). There are other things not touched on, such as Tesla's SEC filings related to this.�
May 16, 2016
stopcrazypp The JESLA AC connector does not have an inverter at all. The inverter is already included in the onboard charger in the car. All the JESLA connector is a EVSE that does the J1772 protocol handshake and provide various adapters to sockets. And what Quickchargepower does is simply take a $500 Tesla mobile connector, take off the Tesla side, and add a J1772 connector (which might cost $100-200). My JESLA example is intended to show that company charging essentially $500 ($1000-$500) to do that.
If DC charging only costs $50 to implement, then their DC retrofit option would cost $50+$500 = $550. Yet it costs $3000 (and that doesn't even include installation).
I'm completely aware of how DC charging works. What it involves in the car is a contactor that can connect and disconnect the battery from power pins on the connector. And given Tesla shares power pins with AC, their contactor needs to switch from the onboard charger to the battery. Then on the car side there needs to be hardware and software that can do the analog/digital handshake through the signal pins. None of this would be any less complex than the AC connector. In fact, it is more complex, since AC only uses the analog handshake (pilot signal), while DC uses both analog (CHAdeMO has pilot throughout, Tesla/CCS has it in the first half and switches to digital) and digital communication (CHAdeMO and Tesla uses CAN bus, CCS uses PLC). Also, the AC connector only needs to handle a max of 80A of current, while DC handles 125A-370A (which means beefier components throughout).�
May 16, 2016
Canuck Agreed. The question is how Tesla can implement this to avoid abuse. I suggest a "pay-per-use" system for the Model 3 that is equal to the costs of home charging, which I know varies, but based on a national average or something like that.
Those of us here opposing locals charging at Superchargers, who have access to home charging, are not engaged in a "poorly-thought-through movement to dissuade those of less means from buying EVs". I find that extremely condescending to those who you claim to be trying to help out. To draw an analogy to voter id laws is ridiculous. Please don't turn this thread into class warfare. I bet there's a lot of very wealth people, in high end condos, who can't charge at home. I also bet that with a mass market car many more people will be charging at Superchargers when they have home charging, just to save a buck. But unlike you, I don't attribute that to income levels. Some of the cheapest people I know are also the wealthiest. That's how many got to be that way. This has nothing to do with income levels. When's something is "free", many people take advantage of it, regardless of how much money they have in the bank.
You're not being honest since Tesla made it very clear to you that you paid $2,500 for Supercharging for long distant travel. Admitting to that would be honest but something tells me you will again fail to hear me.
Now, there are posts here about people without home charging, but with a close Supercharger, having told that to their Sales Advisor before purchasing, and Tesla agreed that they were exempt from the rule. If you were exempted, because you truly do not have the option to home charge, then I would agree with your statement and call you honest.
We also need to factor in the Supercharger infrastructure cost. I'd prefer if every Model 3 had an additional $2,500 added on to the price and those funds went to build and service more Superchargers. That would be ideal. But I think the price is already being squeezed too much and I don't see it happening. I think the pay-per-use model makes the most sense when it comes to costs and avoiding abuse.
Only time will tell and my posts will be here for all the naysayers to say: "I told you so" if I am wrong. The only thing certain is uncertainty since no one really knows -- or at least no one posting here knows. I also wonder if the insiders at Tesla have even determined this issue yet.�
May 16, 2016
stopcrazypp I've mentioned in another thread, but I hope if they make pay-per-use, it won't be only exclusive to the Model 3. If it is, then it won't really address the issues (whether it be cost or congestion). The S/X is still projected to make up a large proportion of the fleet (at least 20%) even with Model 3 in full production.
I initially dismissed the suggestions by others in the supercharging threads that charging an upfront cost (like $2000-2500) could actually have the negative effect of causing people to want to "get their money's worth", but after the conversation in this thread so far, that kind of thinking does clearly happen (at least with Tesla owners, it doesn't seem to happen with other manufacturers). So while previously I was 100% advocating for an upfront option (with my idea of paid "urban chargers" to handle local congestion), now I'm not so sure.�
May 16, 2016
JeffK So you think using the onboard charger means you're using DC Charging....
You keep mentioning commercial products with included margins but are neglecting true manufacturing costs. How much money do these components actually require to build them? The answer is not much, especially at large volume.�
May 16, 2016
stopcrazypp No. Read my comment more thoroughly. I separated it into two sections for a reason. The first half discusses the JESLA (AC charging). To make it clear, the JESLA (and the Tesla mobile connector it is based on) is a EVSE used for AC charging. I only bring it up to serve as comparison for the margins quickchargepower charges ($500 max).
JESLA� is THE 40 amp J1772 portable charging solution!
Tesla � Mobile Connector Bundle
The second half addresses DC charging.
Long story short. If DC charging costs only $50 to implement, I would expect quickchargepower to charge $550 for their DC retrofit ($50 for the costs, $500 for the margin). Yet they charge $3000.�
May 16, 2016
callmesam When I bought my car, I was a renter without home charging. Many friends that I've convinced to buy the car are in the same position. In addition, I am one of the few who paid $2000 for "Supercharging." My local use wasn't an "exception" to the rule but a benefit of the bargain. In fact, soon after my purchase, Elon made that "local" use explicit as I've quoted above.
I've helped people to buy cars, learn to charge and helped expand the mission of Tesla Motors.
WTF are you doing except making the present more difficult and unpleasant for prospective owners in ANTICIPATION of some future harm.
You set up a strawman and yourself as police. It's truly shameful.�
May 16, 2016
JeffK Policing is something that makes me worry. What's to stop them from disabling the supercharging ability via update for someone who abuses the system (or if done by a disgruntled employee).�
May 16, 2016
Canuck Give it a break. I'm discussing issues with locals charging at Superchargers who have access to home charging. Stop calling me names and stick to the issues. You should know that ad hominem arguments are the lowest form of argument. You must be better than that.
I bet I've got far more people into EV's than you have. Not only with my Tesla but also with my Nissan Leaf. There's no bigger promoter of EV's than me. But I want it work out when the masses get into driving EV's and drive to Disneyland or the Grand Canyon for a holiday. I want fast, efficient and unclogged Supercharging. This is about that mission, and name calling does nothing to advance it.
There's already a thread here (a while back) about people who thought they were slowed by Tesla while Supercharging at local chargers. Some went into their Tesla account and changed their address to deal with that issue. Whether Tesla actually did it was up for debate though.�
May 16, 2016
stopcrazypp All of this had been discussed when the supercharger letters came out. Some suggest Tesla implement this, but Tesla first needs to weed out false positives (which they failed to so with the letters).�
May 16, 2016
JeffK Just want to make sure if a person were to get too many speeding tickets that Tesla isn't going to be petitioned by local govts to limit top speed on a certain user's car. Think: the Apple iPhone issue.�
May 16, 2016
callmesam 1. Your actions of trying to police owners is shameful and harmful to ownership. Please stop. I am making a value judgement about the helpfulness of your actions. This is not ad hominem attack, whereas calling you an idiot for acting so shamefully, is.
2. Your claim to "got far more people than me" is stupid. Notice this isn't an ad hominem attack, since only your idea is being attacked. You have no idea how many people I've guided to EV ownership. On the other hand, you've potentially turned a whole generation of future EV owners off with such a half assed car. Again, not an ad hominem attack.
3. You are in a thread asking about what to do if you don't have a garage. Even though you KNEW that Tesla encourages owners without fixed parking or charging to use the Superchargers, you didn't mention that in any of your previous dozen posts on this thread, instead opting for your narrative of famine and Supercharger clogging.
4. What you personally want is not material. Tesla has made a number of statements, not all of which appear to be consistent, but you've chosen to perpetuate certain statements to the exclusion of others. That's cognitive dissonance. Again, not ad hominem attack.
Focus all of your worrying on things that are actually a problem: namely people overstaying their charge. No nuance, no room for misunderstanding. Leave the amorphous definitions of ABUSE, OCCASIONAL and LOCAL to Tesla Motors.�
May 16, 2016
Canuck 1.2.Definition:
1. You directed your argument against me not helping people transition to EV's ("WTF are you doing") rather than deal with my argument of locals charging at superchargers who can charger at home. That's a shot directed against me personally (not helping others like you do) rather than responding to the position I am maintaining.
2. You called me the "police", which is name calling, and directed at me personally, rather than dealing with the issue of locals charging at superchargers who can charge at home.
Got it?�
May 16, 2016
Garlan Garner There is no possibility of overcrowding as far as I am concerned. I've said it many times. If a Long Distance person shows up then I'm moving out of the way.
I have NEVER seen anyone else at the Super Charger that I us....let alone a long distance person. I'm always there by myself.�
May 16, 2016
Garlan Garner Please CALL Tesla. The sales people told me this past Friday to use it as much as I like. That's evidently clear to me. Out of courtesy...I would gladly give up my spot if a long distance person comes through.....however I have NEVER EVER seen anyone at the charger that I use. I'm only there about 15-18 minutes per day. Abuse? Really?
That's about $.42 of charging at $.06/KWH. 42 penny's.....LOL.�
May 16, 2016
callmesam It's clear you don't understand what an ad hominem attack is. This, in itself, is not an ad hominem attack.
WTF is not an ad hominem attack.
To police: to control (something) by making sure that rules and regulations are being followed. By definition, this is what you are trying to do. Tesla didn't ask you to do this. You made this choice. Again, not an ad hominem attack but a precise definition of your conduct.
That you have taken this on yourself, selectively presented what Tesla has said to further your own personal preference is IMO shameful.
But again, not an ad hominem attack.�
May 16, 2016
Canuck Nice try. WTF is not an ad hominem attack. (It's childish language but not ad hominem.) You left out the ad hominem part. You went on to ask "WTF are you doing" to promote EV's and then you congratulated yourself for all you do. What I do, or do not do, to promote EV's is not relevant to the conversation. It was an attack against me personally. It was the classic example of an ad hominem attack.
Also, you told me that I set myself up "as police" and called that shameful. Nice try again to change that personal attack to me "policing" things but even if you warp it to that, I'm not policing. I'm providing my opinion on what Tesla may or may not do. I have no control to police this issue. I'm some anonymous person on the internet. Do you think Tesla or anyone else is going to do something because of what I post here. Your form of argument is to attack me personally. That's fine. I just pointed out it was a low form of argument. For you to turn that around and then say they were not personal attacks but dealing with the issues is absurd.
Stick to the issues. You have some good arguments to make. Personal attacks on your opponents takes away from the merits of your arguments.
Why would I call Tesla? As I said just a few posts back, you can use it to your heart's content, assuming you don't have home charging.
This is about when Tesla becomes a mass market car if people with home charging are allowed to charge for free at superchargers, will that clog them up for the long distance travellers? I say it will and to solve that problem there needs to a pay-per-use fee. The fee should be similar to the costs to home charging which is very small, as you point out. Then there's no incentive for locals to charge at superchargers.
Again, there's no use arguing with me. It's only my opinion and who really cares what I think? The outrage at me for stating this opinion is funny, as are all the dislikes given to me by the same people over and over, to practically all my posts. I look at earning a dislike (without posting rude content) as a badge of honour. It says I got people thinking and out of their comfort zones, while calmly making my points known.
Also, as I've said before, if everyone is so certain of themselves, we'll know in under two years and you can bring this post back to the top and gloat. I've been wrong lots before (my prediction for AP 2.0 hardware was by the end of 2015!) so this won't be my first time.�
May 16, 2016
SmartElectric No, I was expressly outlining to him that using $2500 of the money HE PAID (he used capitals when responding to me, and I thought it was funny) of electricity wasn't actually true, and that a large portion of that was to fund infrastructure. He doesn't care about the infrastructure, and figures everyone else can pay for that, because he claims he doesn't need it, but he will be using it while consuming his full ration of $2500 in electricity. I responded because I felt (and continue to feel) it is a misplaced illogical position that feels like a greedy reaction rather than reasonable thought.�
May 16, 2016
callmesam @Canuck
Let me tell you why I'm frustrated.
@Drivin suggested Supercharging where you don't have a garage and your response was "uh, no."
Elon was clear that owners without fixed parking or garage can use Superchargers. So you were promulgating incorrect information. This selective policing of rules and bias toward people not Supercharging is, IMO, harmful to new potential owners.
When my friends fly into LAX, I'll pick them up and take them to Hawthorne for a Supercharge. Let them plug/unplug. Show them the app, have a drink, buy a t-shirt and see the SpaceX rockets. They can't believe Superchargers are free, forever. It sounds too good to be true.
If someone says that they want to charge only at a Supercharger, I'm happy with telling them why this is an inconvenient and largely wasted time for hardly any money. Unless absolutely necessary. On the other hand, as long as they don't "abuse" the Supercharger by overstaying a charge I'm confident Tesla will be able to scale Supercharger density.
On aggregate, people will prefer convenience of charging from home to keep the system sustainable OR Tesla will grow the system.�
May 16, 2016
callmesam You guys can argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or when you should feel "greedy" for using the Superchargers, but I'm not interested. It's a network of chargers, not a religion.
Tesla has stated, in no uncertain terms, that operation costs (i.e. electricity for Supercharging) is de minimis.
My question to you is: how should I feel if I drive hundreds of thousands of miles FOR DISTANCE TRAVEL on the Supercharger network. Tesla may not "make" any money off me. Was I "greedy"?
What if I live in a condo, but I hardly drive anywhere in town?
What if he spends money at each Supercharger thereby making it cheaper and easier for Tesla Motors to enroll additional Supercharger partners?
What if he uses just the Destination Charging network? Still greedy?�
May 16, 2016
Canuck Please don't misquote me. The context of my remark is important. This thread started with someone who showed a "Solution to charge your Model 3 if you don't have any garage?" being a conduit ran under the sidewalk to the car. It looks like a good solution for that person but others posted possible dangers and code violations. Then Driven posted this:
This assumes that the person who ran that cable, and looks to be charging fine at home without a garage, should just be using a Supercharger, since "that is what they are there for."
I said "uh no" then quoted Tesla's own words on what Superchargers "are there for." What I posted are facts -- not my own opinion.
I don't think it is particularly helpful for people to come here and think Superchargers are there for local charging if other options are available. That's clearly not what "they are there for". If the OP can't make the conduit idea work then the Superchargers are a potential solution but they are not there for this purpose.
One of the greatest stumbling blocks to the adoption of EV's has been long distant travel. Tesla came up with Superchargers specifically in response to this issue. The majority of people have a garage or other ways to charge. I was simply correcting Driven's statement as to "that is what they are there for."
You lost me there since you assume religion is something deserving of respect. I'd rather focus my attention on Superchagers than an imaginary friend in the sky.
Why post if you're not interested in the subject?�
May 16, 2016
callmesam 1. I didn't "misquote" you. You wrote what you wrote in response to @Drivin. You intentionally omitted information that was directly on point about people without fixed parking.
2. OP doesn't need to run illegal conduit or illegally block his driveway before he can use a Supercharger. Superchargers are there for people "without fixed parking." OP is clearly in this category of owner.
3. "If the OP can't make the conduit idea work then the Superchargers are a potential solution but they are not there for this purpose. "
Why do you keep denying that Elon Musk stated that Superchargers are there for people without fixed parking. Yes they are.
4. Whether the "majority has a garage" is a red herring. OP does not. We were not discussing some other hypothetical. In this case, Superchargers are an valid option.
5. I don't assume religion deserves respect. The exact opposite. It should be questioned. Just like your erroneous assumptions and selective rule analysis.
6. When I say I'm not interested, I'm not interested in the moral handwringing and worrying that some on this thread seem to embrace. I'm interested in people buying the car and transitioning to sustainable transportation, not wondering what constitutes greedy mooching.
#DriveFree�
May 16, 2016
FirstSea ....
Anyway, since I rent I'll have to use the SC when possible, but I'll do my best to have an alternative near my parking space.�
May 16, 2016
Garlan Garner The problem with TESLA is that ELON is supposedly saying something totally different that what the Tesla Sales People are saying. Give me a document that states how I should or shouldn't use the SC's.
For something as important as the use of SC's there should be an official legal document of some kind.
Again and Again.....I'm going with the latest statement I've been given...and that has been by the Tesla sales team. I don't know ELON and I haven't "heard" him say anything. I heard the sales team. I don't accept some article from a 3rd person about what ELON said. It should be clear on the Tesla Website or something official. There is NOTHING in my documentation or owners manuals or anything about Super Charging.
Some people here made up additional rules - like "If you don't have any charging opportunities at home...then you can use it". They neither work for TESLA nor have any official power to enforce their made up rules and regulations. So for everyone that wants to supercharge - please feel free to do so - per the sales people. Call them and ask for yourself - or call ELON if you have his number. Cause there aint no documentation.
I supercharged today. No one else showed up while I was there. Just me and some birds.
I'm super charging just like the sales people tell me. Sales people carry the TESLA logo.�
May 16, 2016
GoTslaGo I thought the newer parking meters are able to take credit cards, and therefore hooked into the electrical grid.
Then if that's the case, couldn't cities that have extensive meter networks also add ev charging capacity to the meters? Then an ev could charge up in the street, and if a city wanted to, they could get additional (hopefully non extortist) revenue.�
May 16, 2016
SmartElectric I doesn't make a difference what he does or does not do, he clearly is going to do it no matter what is said.
What I did was call out the fact he felt he PAID FOR (I keep using capitals because of how funny it was that he kept using them) $2500 in electricity, I pointed out he was likely "owed" something like $500 in electricity as the other $2000 was sunk infrastructure spending. It is illogical to argue otherwise. Personally, I don't care how much supercharging people do, but they should not rationalize it as a $2500 amount of electricity they feel they pre-paid for, when they don't consider the infrastructure cost. If they choose to feel "owed" by Tesla, then use $500 in electricity at $0.25/kWh and enjoy it! Use more than that, and the justification just comes across as hollow. Your point is there is no need or justification, which is totally cool with me, but the guy keeps trying to justify it, and the logic of that makes no sense.�
May 16, 2016
Garlan Garner Yep.
Maybe I'll patent the phrase -
No Garage - Supercharge.
Say it with me now. No Garage - Supercharge
It almost rhymes. lol�
May 17, 2016
proven I'm getting close to taking a long road trip in our model X with two small kids, and if we got to a supercharger and found it full of locals charging that would be really frustrating. What was planned to be a 20 minute stop may be over an hour. Relying on etiquette will never work either. Right now it's not a problem (except maybe in one or two locations in CA), but I could see it being a problem later as more and more Tesla's are on the road.
I think you'll start seeing more apartment/condo complexes adding charging parking spots as more people have electric cars. If you live in such a scenario I suggest you start asking them now to add chargers. I've been bugging a certain hotel about their lack of charging options for the past few months because I will be staying there later this year. They are beginning to take me seriously.
There are also more public level 2 and 3 charging stations being installed all over the place--more than people realize. Just look at plugshare and you'll notice many charging stations that you never knew existed. I imagine the build out of public chargers will keep rising quickly as the Model 3 and Chevy Bolt are released. Businesses have an incentive to install chargers as it attracts customers. One shopping center near me has four L2 and one L3 charger and if I'm in the area I'll often stop there for lunch just because I can get some free miles on my car. Fortunately, installing charging stations is relatively cheap in the grand scheme of things. Electricity is already everywhere.�
May 17, 2016
Garlan Garner Don't say that too loud. You will get lambasted in this thread. lol
Good for you. I believe Electricity is going to equate to WIFI as far as use is concerned. Its everywhere.
Future = If you want to attract customers - provide free electricity for cars, free wifi free continental breakfast, free parking, complimentary everything.�
May 17, 2016
proven Except that's what those chargers are meant for! I would view Superchargers differently until there are a lot more of them. I also always give up my spot if I see a Leaf or i3 looking for a spot since they actually need the charge.�
May 17, 2016
Drivin That is meaningless.
You should post the rules/restrictions that legally determine a person's rights to a supercharger.
Words about "intent" and what is "cool" is irrelevant to a discussion about what people can use the supercharger for, especially since they can later claim "cool means only 1 use of the supercharger per month". This is why there are thies little things like contracts and agreements. Do you want them later saying "Well, even though you paid cash, we didn't intend that you could actually keep the car for more than 3 years" ? LOL.
Since new owners are not being asked to sign up for restrictions on their supercharging, seems that Tesla has not determined that there is a big enough issue to codify any specific rules.
So charge away!�
May 17, 2016
Booga If this were to happen, and if Tesla is intending to let locals charge at Superchargers, then the issue becomes Tesla's rather than the people there, and so I would expect Tesla to have expanded Supercharging stations by adding more charging stations and/or adding more supercharger locations.�
May 17, 2016
Drivin It is really unhelpful for people to start promoting imaginary restrictions on owners where none exist.
The SC are for charging your car. That is what they are there for.
There is no legal restriction of only using a SC if there are no other options available.
Even Elon says it is cool to do that occasionally. (yes, he said occasionally but for some that may mean once every other week, 7%, for others that may mean 1 per year - either way, they are being cool) and there still are NO legal restrictions.
Besides, if a person doesn't have a garage, they don't have the option to charge overnight.�
May 17, 2016
garsh Be sure to let them know that Tesla will give them free destination stations & pay for installation.
See link at bottom of this page:
Destination Charging | Tesla Motors�
May 17, 2016
callmesam I agree that he paid $2500 for Supercharger "activation" not electricity. How Tesla allocates those dollars isn't important to me, other than intellectually.
I also agree that there's no need to justify or rationalize. Just enjoy the car.�
May 17, 2016
Brass Guy So this is maybe kinda old, but I remember reading stuff like this which led me to believe there will never be a pay-per-use model.
Tesla Wants To Open Its Supercharger Standard To Other Electric Car�Makers
Will Tesla give an access to net of Superchargers to other companies? - question to Tesla's board of management. | Tesla Motors
(Read MountainVoyageur's 1st reply)
Maybe they'd consider a time-period activation, like when someone anticipates a vacation or something; but pay-per-use would directly oppose the original offering.�
May 17, 2016
Brass Guy Oh and when I bought my car the offer was to use the superchargers anytime as much as I want.
As a matter of fact, when at the service center 12 miles from my house with over 120 rated miles on the dash, they asked if I wanted them to plug it into the supercharger.
Saying "superchargers enable long distance travel" does not mean "don't use them for local charging."
If I'm driving by and have the time, I'll plug in for 20 minutes or so and check my email while typically no-one else is at the 8 bay station.�
May 17, 2016
newtman I think you're worrying about a problem that doesn't exist. I live near two of busiest superchargers in the US (San Mateo and Mountain View), and the only time I've seen them clogged, is in San Mateo when they're being hogged by limo drivers, not locals. We definitely need a lot more charging infrastructure by the time the 3 comes out, but it's really not that big a problem today.�
May 17, 2016
182RG I've seen this come up several times in posts that limo / taxi / livery drivers are Supercharging for commercial operations. Perhaps I missed it, but do they pay in this situation, or are they charging free as well? Surprised there isn't more controversy over this (or maybe there is?)�
May 17, 2016
newtman Nope, they don't pay, charging free. I think Elon has gone as far as saying he's ok with this, after all it gets a lot more people into Teslas and helps sell the brand.�
May 17, 2016
Drivin I don't see why this would be controversial at all.
This is exactly what superchargers are for. To charge your car.
These people in particular put on a lot of miles per day and it isn't as if they can drive home and recharge in time to take on more fares that day.
Besides, these drivers are replacing those super-yucky ICE taxi's, and that is supercool and saving polar bears and stuff.
On top of all that, there never were any restrictions on when you can use a SC, so there should be no controversy at all.�
May 17, 2016
Garlan Garner Please show us the document you are reading from.
Please show me a document that says - The only people who supercharge are Long Distance drivers. Then show me how far Long Distance is. 50 miles? 100 miles? Across state lines?�
May 17, 2016
Garlan Garner Absolutely!! That's exactly what I was told also.�
May 17, 2016
jgs I did that a few times and then realized that sitting in my car dinking with my phone was right up there with watching paint dry on my list of ways to use my free time. I drive right past, now. But whatever floats your boat. (I do think they should put one of these at the Superchargers though, to dramatize what kind of hourly wage you're getting for sitting there: Blake Fall-Conroy)
There should be some TMC law of nature, up there with every firmware update thread eventually turns into speculation about regen, that every charging thread eventually turns into people arguing about what is, and isn't allowed/ethical/whatever with Superchargers.�
May 17, 2016
Canuck Now we've boiled it down and I agree with you. There are many things in life that are perfectly legally but are not being a good neighbour, or are not moral, or are unethical. I don't use the "NO legal restrictions" as my standard in life as to what is acceptable. But I realize many people, you included, do.
For this very reason, "free" supercharging for a mass market vehicle won't work, in my opinion. Many people just don't care if they have charging at home about taking up a spot at a local supercharger on a regular basis, such as twice a month, since that fits with their definition of "occasionally" but even if it doesn't it's not illegal, so who cares? Right?
I'm also of the view that Tesla must have the same opinion as me or they would have announced otherwise. It makes no sense that free supercharging would be their intention but they are keeping it secret. Why would they do that when announcing it would increase orders? Despite all the push back and "dislikes" I get, no one will answer this one simple question, that I have repeatedly asked.�
May 17, 2016
GoTslaGo Maybe they're seeing the points and counterpoints on this forum to help them decide if future supercharging should be free or not.�
May 17, 2016
Canuck I doubt the comments here will make any difference but I do wonder if Tesla even knows how supercharging will be dealt with on the Model 3. The fact that their marketing materials have changed three times since they said the Model 3 will be supercharging capable does seem to suggest that they are playing it by ear for now at least. It's not coming out for nearly two years and perhaps Tesla wants to see how the next two summer driving seasons play out at superchargers before deciding what to do. I'm planning a trip myself down the west coast, at peak summer holiday driving times, and I'm interested in seeing first hand how busy, or not, the superchargers will be during my trip.�
May 17, 2016
Drivin ohhh, a personal attack, how cute. You know nothing about my standards in life and what I find acceptable and whether I live by only legal restrictions vs. moral or ethical beliefs.
And yet, you claim you do and finger point at others without any actual information.
How special!
Aren't you the one earlier complaining about ad hominem attacks?
Remember you are in a thread about people who don't have a garage, yet you still add "Many people just don't care if they have charging at home..." LOL.
As for your question:
- If they had decided "Yes", they would announce now or soon to pump up the volume (which may or may not actually have an impact if a vast majority thought it already did)
- If they decided "no", then there is no reason to announce that until they have something else "good" to announce since they may be concerned that many people assumed "yes" might cancel orders. There is no upside, only possible downside.
- If they don't have a decision and are looking at alternatives (pay as you go, limits, quadruple the number of superchargers etc), there is no reason to announce that now since again, some people who assumed "yes" might get second thoughts. Again, there is no upside, only possible downside.
IIRC correctly, they claimed they aren't worried until around 1M cars are on the road, if that is true, all of this is way premature and they are looking at alternatives to hedge their bets if that happens faster than their supercharger expansion happens.�
May 17, 2016
Canuck Nothing is ad hominem. I quoted exactly what you said about "NO legal restrictions" and told you why I disagree with that position. If it is not your position, I don't see why you would you state it as such? I didn't call you the "police" or ask "WTF are you doing" to promote EV's. Those are ad hominem. They had nothing to do with the issues at hand but were personal attacks you made against me. I quoted your own words and took issue with them. There's nothing ad hominem in that.
No, this is a thread about someone without a garage wondering about running a conduct under the ground like in the picture he posted. Go back and read the first post if you don't believe me.
So basically you're agreeing with me that they are "hedging their bets" which must mean it is at least a potential issue for them. I thought your view was that locals charging at superchargers was no issue at all?�
May 17, 2016
Drivin You claimed I live my life only based on legal restrictions and not on any moral or ethical basis.
That is an ad hominem attack.
Irrelevant to your point that "Many people just don't care if they have charging at home..." So why do you keep bringing that issue up in a thread about someone who has charging at home?
I don't know why they are hedging their bets. It could very well be that they want to do it for economic reasons - get more money per vehicle.
If Tesla thought local charging was a big enough issue in the scheme of things, they are smart enough to change the rules for people buying new cars today.�
May 17, 2016
Canuck I didn't claim that. You said that. If you don't believe what you say, then why post there are: "NO legal restrictions"? I don't think it was sarcasm.
Give it a break. You know this was sarcasm! Notice the "Right?" at the end that you conveniently edit out. I don't think it's many people but I do think it's large enough number for Tesla to be concerned about.
I can't keep going in circles with you. It's not an issue, then their hedging their bets, then it's not an issue again because they are not doing it now. I've said before, the number of S and X's on the road do not compare to what's coming!
I need to get some work done and this is no longer fun. Have a good day!�
May 17, 2016
electracity More likely Tesla is considering a lifetime ban for all thread participants.�
May 17, 2016
Drivin You missed the next line.
"This is exactly what superchargers are for. To charge your car."
I never said it was only for LD drivers. SD is to charge your car. LD, SD, 1 mile/day 500 miles/day. There are no restrictions.�
May 17, 2016
kort677 maybe by the time the M3 starts to actually be delivered people will have been able to settle their charging issues�
May 17, 2016
182RG I can see both sides of it, but I can see the controversy potential as well. Tesla funding local commercial operators (Uber, taxi, etc). I understand the "get more EVs on the streets to save polar bears" part, but there are also obvious gaps in the SC network, and construction has slowed down compared to the 2016 map. Is it related to funding?
Unfortunately, EM/Tesla send mixed messages on this topic. That can't be denied.�
May 17, 2016
proven Garlan, please re-read my posts before going off on me. That line you quoted?.. that was me saying that the L2 and L3 chargers at a shopping mall near me are meant for charging while you shop/eat. Those are not superchargers. Then I went on to say that *I* would view superchargers differently until there are more of them. That doesn't mean someone can't charge locally. That doesn't mean I said it's only for long-distance travel. I said that *I* would treat them differently, meaning that *I* would not abuse the local superchargers out of respect to people who need them for travel. Superchargers were advertised by Tesla as enabling long distance travel, but they never said that was the only use. Please calm down with your ranting and read more carefully.�
May 17, 2016
Drivin I said there are no legal restrictions. (I said nothing of how I personally balance ethical, moral and legal issues)
You agreed with that statement. "Now we've boiled it down and I agree with you"
You then turned that into an attack asserting that I don't make decisions based on ethical or moral grounds.
You claim some high moral ground while attacking someone for what you imagine is how they make decisions (irony police beware!)
You really need to stop while you are behind.�
May 17, 2016
Drivin It is an interesting point since not only do the taxi-EV vehicles save the polar bears by having fewer ICE vehicle miles driven, but I expect that it also does a heck of a lot for promoting the EV cause, showcasing the car, possibly getting more people to seriously consider the car thus saving even more polar bears. But they require a local SC to make them useful for the entire day.
Besides funding issues, I am not sure what would cause such a slow down. Aren't they at or ahead of their sales targets?�
May 17, 2016
int32_t Not sure if anybody mentioned this yet: www.plugshare.com
Sorry, I wasn't going to read all ten pages to find out!
Some areas are positively blanketed with charging stations, so some folks without a home charger might be able to plug in and walk a short distance to work/home a couple times a week. That's what I might end up having to do.
�
May 17, 2016
Garlan Garner 10-4 Understood�
May 17, 2016
Garlan Garner Fair Enough�
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