Jul 18, 2015
miimura What?? Somebody actually coiled the SAE Combo Cable?
�
Jul 19, 2015
Chris TX Yeah, then you have to buy three different models of i3. No single car can support more than one type of L3 charging today, except for the Model S.�
Jul 21, 2015
matbl By the way. CCS (type 2) only DC chargers are starting to pop up here. I checked one out yesterday. CCS only and no other charger at the site.
So a CCS type 2 adapter would soon be a good thing...�
Jul 21, 2015
GSP I think it would be helpful to contact the people that have CCS-only, and CHAdeMO-only, chargers installed and ask them to upgrade to dual standard (two "hose") support.
Perhaps something could also be done to discourage single standard Chargers from being manufactured. A $5000 tax/fee that the charger manufacturers would have to pay, only for single standard chargers, would be very effective (if it was possible).
GSP�
Jul 21, 2015
Kratus So Tesla would be the first to have to pay for its single standard superchargers...�
Jul 21, 2015
matbl This was a brand new just installed charger. So asking them to change it seems like a no-go.�
Jul 21, 2015
stopcrazypp Asking Tesla to make a CCS adapter is probably easier than that. CCS is the minimum standard required in EU countries, so it should be expected that single standard CCS chargers are installed going forward.�
Oct 13, 2015
dow FYI, ChargePoint is sending announcements about new DC Fast Charging locations, where the DC option is SAE Combo only:
�
Oct 13, 2015
miimura The ChargePoint unit that is SAE Combo only is the Express 100. That unit is limited to 60A DC which comes to 18kW-25kW max. Is that at all interesting for charging a Model S? Is there a significant advantage over an HPWC? I think the answer is basically NO on both points. Sure, it would be faster if you only have a single charger, but it's not worth Tesla's resources to make an adapter if this is what people are going to do with it.�
Oct 14, 2015
matbl The same argument can be made for a majority of chademo units....�
Oct 14, 2015
mattmass It can, but I don't understand why you'd make it. I'd always choose to have more options for charging, especially at the higher ends of power. CHAdeMO has saved me multiple times, even at 18k it is so much better than the typical L2. If combo becomes more common, and I think it may, I'd really like to see Tesla make an adapter.�
Oct 14, 2015
matbl Here it's already more common. Stations are either both ccs and chademo or ccs only. Chademo only more or less doesn't exist�
Oct 14, 2015
miimura The situation on the ground makes an adapter for 40kW+ CCS in Europe much more useful for charging a Tesla today than a J1772 DC Combo does in the United States.�
Oct 14, 2015
Larry Chanin It's very simple. It's a matter what best serves the customer at the lowest price to the host location. From the perspective of a Model S owner with dual chargers, many HPWCs could be installed for the cost of even the cheapest CHAdeMO chargers and the capacity of each HPWC is almost the same as these entry level CHAdeMOs.
I mentioned in another thread:
"You may have seen that BMW is subsidizing a 24 kW CHAdeMO DC fast charger. It's subsidized price is over $6,500 (I don't believe that includes installation costs). It weighs 125 pounds and it requires a 480/277 volt, 3-phase power source from the utility. In comparison an HPWC's retail cost is $750. It weighs 20 pounds and it only requires a 240/208 volt, single phase power source from the utility."
Larry�
Oct 15, 2015
matbl A very US-centric perspective....
In europe we have yet to see any HPWC's from Tesla at all. At the same time it has started to pop up CCS only DC-chargers capable of at least 48 KW.
Here everything when you do new installations for these kind of things are 3-phase. I expect the Tesla HPWC to be 3-phase as well.�
Oct 15, 2015
Chris TX Can you even get dual chargers to take advantage of a HPWC in non-US spec Model S?�
Oct 15, 2015
arg Yes - like the US, they used to be an orderable option but now have to be fitted at service centres.
Unlike the US, dual charger for EU means 32A three-phase (rather than 80A single phase), since three-phase is more readily available here than high current single phase.
The EU version of the HPWC therefore needs to be different - I was told recently by a Tesla source that they had a batch manufactured of a universal HPWC (for all regions outside North America), but unfortunately they didn't work and a corrected version was awaited before rolling out the destination charging programme.�
Oct 15, 2015
renim Tesla Europe is 22kW Mennekes just like Renault Zoe is 22kW Zoe etc
22KW AC is all over much of europe and is cheap, far cheaper than 22kW DC. Have you looked at a plugshare map of France or UK or Ireland etc
22kW AC is really the default European Charging standard, is just that Chademo/CCS supporters don't want to admit it yet.�
Oct 15, 2015
matbl 22kw is too slow to be meaningful for longer travel outside of the supercharger network. Ohh, and a 22 kw station kind of sucks if there's a 48 kw ccs beside it.�
Oct 15, 2015
Kratus In some european countries, like in France for example, the Model S is delivered with dual chargers as a standard.�
Jan 21, 2016
gavine Any news on a CCS to Tesla adapter? I charged my i3 at a CCS combo charger recently and it worked very well. These CCS chargers are really starting to pop-up and it would be nice to have an adapter for Tesla when away from Supercharger path.�
Jan 21, 2016
jborak I live close to Nauna's, they have great pizza�
Jan 23, 2016
AmpedRealtor Looks like the future is definitely CCS/Combo. I hope we get an adapter from Tesla.�
Jan 25, 2016
AWDtsla The complaints from Europe are entertaining. Supercharging density in many parts of Europe has exceeded North America already, and the 2016 map is insanity. In addition to this, you have plentiful ~240V outlets. You realize that in North American the standard outlet is 12A @ 115V, basically a meaningless amount of charge. Then almost all the level 2 chargers are <6kW J1772 stations as they are 30A and usually 199V after sag on industrial 208V. You can find ChaDemo (which is fortunatey or unfortunately co-located with CCS depending on how you look at it) if you are very lucky, but mostly they are located in useless places, like in heavily populated places where there is a Nissan dealership or a supercharger already, basically no where you'd need them "outside of the supercharger network".
I'd kill for a 10kW charger in many areas, forget about 20kW, that would be a dream. Well unless Tesla finally decides to add a supercharger in those locations.�
Jan 25, 2016
widodh Interesting how opinions can change rapidly, don't you?
I have a 22kW charger on-board and I already find it slow. In the Netherlands (tiny country!) we now have 50 stations from Fastned along our highways: Fastned — Fast charging along the highway
With 43kW charging with the CHAdeMO adapter I really like it.
Still, I think that for Europe Tesla should and probably will change their socket so that it accepts SuperCharging and CCS without any adapter.�
Jan 26, 2016
AmpedRealtor I highly doubt that will happen. The CCS/Combo plug is so large that the current Model S charging port would never accommodate such a plug. I doubt Tesla will ruin the aesthetics of the car for such a plug.�
Jan 26, 2016
ddimit Hence the name "Frankeplug" its a monster!
I would expect to see an adapter that looks similar to the ChaDeMO. CCS will be the standard deployed standard in the US going forward. Chademo will be around awhile due to the Large amount of Leaf's out there.�
Jan 26, 2016
RDoc Tesla engineers have said a CCS adapter doesn't require any electronics, as the CHAdeMO one does, since both Superchargers and CCS use powerline signalling, not the CAN bus. It should just be a larger version of the J1772 adapter. Tesla was on the group that defined CCS and has stated that the protocols are compatible, whatever that means. SAE took too long to actually approve it and it's a bit under-powered as well.�
Jan 26, 2016
miimura I think once there is a 200A CCS connector defined and chargers start to be deployed for that current level it would be worth Tesla's time to make a CCS adapter for Type 1 and Type 2. Doing another 125A adapter like the CHAdeMO one would not be worthwhile in today's marketplace.�
Jan 27, 2016
cwerdna Source?�
Jan 27, 2016
arg The point about "compatibility" was stated a long time ago (and I've never seen it in words as explicit as yours), but it seems to have been misleading. All indications are that Supercharging starts with the 'go to digital signalling' pulses as specified in J1772 (same as CCS), but then CCS uses powerline carrier while Supercharger appears to use simple CAN.�
Jan 27, 2016
matbl Maybe. I've not seen anyone doing 'go to digital signalling' with the correct CCS signaling (resistor value). So we simply don't know.
But as you say, what we do know points to CAN. At least in the US.�
Jan 27, 2016
RDoc JB Straubel disagrees with you, what's your source?
SAE: What about the communication protocol of the Combo Connector? It�s considered essential for V2G.
Straubel: That�s fine. We�re definitely commonizing with all of that. The only thing that�s up for debate in all of these standards is the physical geometries of the pins and sockets. Everything else is pretty easy to adapt to. The communication standards are pretty universal. We�re 100% compliant with all the J1772 communication levels, signaling, voltage, everything.
http://articles.sae.org/11923/�
Jan 27, 2016
stopcrazypp To be fair, while I also reference that quote, people who have examined the supercharger protocol says that it starts the analog half like CCS, but then the digital part is completely different (as others mention, it uses CAN, not PLC). Of course it is possible that the car has hardware that can support PLC (given how much dissecting has been going on, maybe someone can chime in if they know) and just requires a firmware update to enable it when the adapter comes.�
Jan 27, 2016
RDoc Source?
Someone playing with monitoring the supercharger communications really doesn't seem as authoritative a source as JB Straubel speaking to a professional magazine. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"�
Jan 27, 2016
stopcrazypp You can see starting from here:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/19591-Supercharger-protocol-for-diy-CHAdeMO-adapter/page4?p=629916&viewfull=1#post629916
What happens with the supercharger protocol is most definitely CAN (people have even read the VIN numbers from the CAN signal).
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/61109-CHAdeMO-Adapter-Tear-Down/page5?p=1338505&viewfull=1#post1338505
The general subject is also discussed in this thread:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/32332-Supercharger-protocol-a-superset-of-CCS�
Jan 27, 2016
arg Yes, that's the one and only quote (from 2013) that we have all been looking at and originally interpreted to mean that Supercharging used the homeplug-based signalling.
However, numerous people (admittedly, not me) have instrumented what happens at Superchargers and what happens when you apply the J1772 'go digital' signal, and have found CAN rather than carrier-based signalling.
Strictly speaking, that isn't in conflict with the precise words you quoted above - the car does do all that's in J1772, since J1772 itself only covers AC and the initial signalling on the pilot pin to switch to "digital communication" - the carrier modulation, XML messages and so on are in other standards (J2847, J2931 etc.). I have no idea whether he deliberately intended that narrow interpretation, or was just speaking loosely.
I don't entirely understand @matbl 's suggestion that alternative signalling may be present in the car and unlocked by a different resistor value on the proximity pin - is this something in IEC61851? There's nothing in J1772 about a different resistor value for DC vs AC (indeed, the digital signalling is permitted to be used for more sophisticated AC EVSE as well as for DC), although it does specify an extra core in the cable as the DC EVSE is supposed to monitor the voltage at the car-end proximity pin (which has exactly the same resistor values as for the AC case).
So, much as I would love to find that my car does in fact support the standardised digital communication, it now seems extremely unlikely.�
Jan 27, 2016
RDoc The original question was if a "dumb" CCS adapter could be made for Tesla cars' charging connectors. An alternative formulation of the same question is if the Tesla car's connector is "compatible" with CCS.
No one is suggesting that such an adapter would trick a Tesla car into thinking that it was connected to a Supercharger. Why would Tesla make such a thing? They supply both the adapter and the car's firmware, which would likely have to be updated to support the CCS adapter. From what I understand, the car doesn't think it's connected to a Supercharger when using a CHAdeMO adapter, so there's no reason for it to think that when connected to a CCS charger either. The firmware would identify the CCS adapter, then just use the correct protocol with the existing PLC signalling circuitry in the car.
CCS uses "Power Line Control" (PLC) signalling, as does J1772, and apparently the start of the Supercharger protocol, all of which are supported by Tesla cars. The electrical connection is exactly what's used for J1772 and the protocol is an extension. CCS does use a newer version of PLC, so it's not exactly the same, but the protocol is supposed to be backward compatible, and JB Straubel has stated that Tesla does have SAE CCS compatible hardware and protocol support so I'm willing to believe that it does.
- - - Updated - - -
The quote was in answer to a specific question about the SAE combo connector and DC charging. While I suppose it's possible that the J1772 protocol isn't possible to be changed or extended in the Tesla car's firmware, I find that pretty difficult to believe. The CCS protocol is still HomePlug PLC, the same as J1772 anyway.�
Jan 27, 2016
CSFTN Guys - both J1772 and CCS (and Chademo too) are open standards, no? IMO there is a web site for each, with the protocols clearly delineated .... but I am not an EE, so I won't be the one posting. But, I do recall someone else posting the CCS protocol (not yet final, if I recall) in late 2013.�
Jan 28, 2016
arg And most people on TMC who have looked into this now believe that the car does not have PLC signalling hardware, hence a CCS adaptor would have to be a 'smart' adapter like the CHAdeMO one.
Yes.
No. The start of the Supercharger protocol does the same "switch to digital" signalling as specified in J1772, but a CCS car at this point would switch to PLC while a Model S does not.
You missed my point. The CCS protocol is documented in a number of separate documents, of which J1772 is only one. J1772 covers both AC and DC, but only part of the protocol. It documents the plug shapes (you can do DC over the standard connector "DC level 1" as well as the combo connector "DC level 2", both of which are documented in J1772), It also documents the analogue parts of the protocol - resistor values, effect of pressing the button on the handle, the square wave signal used to specify AC current capabilities etc. However, it stops at the point of "switch to digital signalling". The actual use of PLC is specified in other documents.
I agree with you that the quoted statement would seem to imply support for the whole range of standards involved in CCS. I read it that way myself back in 2013 and believed it up until the point where people started doing reverse engineering and found that it did not appear to be true.
As I said, I have no idea whether JB Straubel deliberately chose those words to be truthful but misleading, or if he meant them more generally and something changed after the event. That statement was made in the very early days of Supercharger deployment - maybe the CAN stuff was a quick hack to get them out of the door for the launch and they planned to go back and retro-fit, but then got beyond the point where that was feasible. Or maybe he meant his statement in the context of an adapter comparable to the CHAdeMO one.�
Jan 28, 2016
RDoc OK, I now understand the issue here, does the car have a HomePlug PLC modem or something similar? I was lumping that together with the J1772 signalling which isn't correct for SAE CCS.
However, this video with a Tesla engineer who worked on the Tesla plug design and was also active with the SAE standards group (to his ultimate disgust) also claims that Tesla is compatible, specifically both electrically and signalling, but obviously not mechanically. It's certainly possible that both he and Straubel were misspeaking, but the questions are pretty specifically about DC fast charging, and as engineers, they'd have a very clear idea of what the issues were.
The SAE Combo discussion starts at about 1:45.
https://vimeo.com/36221090�
Jan 28, 2016
AWDtsla I like how they are talking about the charger coordination and "finish by time" charging over 4 years ago. Still not delivered.�
Jan 28, 2016
matbl Arg, I posted a link to a (draft?) standard in one of these ccs threads many months ago. Can't find it right now though. It had a resistor value at 1200 or 1500 ohm to signal ccs when doing the go to digital pwm signalling.
Ohh. And to answer something else. Yes all of this is standardised but the standards are a little bit too expensive to just buy for fun.�
Jan 30, 2016
arg Yes, I remember you posting that, but unfortunately your link was dead when I tried to retrieve it. I have my own copy of J1772, but I don't have IEC61851; I've been meaning to go to the library and have another look to see if I can find the thing you are talking about - I don't remember it from last time I read them, but it's entirely possible that I missed it.�
Jan 30, 2016
arg That video is from Feb 2012, before SAE had published the CCS standards (J1772 was amended in Oct 2012 to add the combo connector and specify the sequence to switch to CCS, J2847-2 with the high level protocols was published in Aug 2012), also before the first Model S deliveries (Jun 2012), and he only says that he "thinks he knows where the SAE is going" and "they have some hooks in there" to make Model S compaitble.
The Straubel interview is much more concrete, being an interview explicitly on his reaction to the eventual publication of the SAE specs and after the car had launched. But he doesn't seem to have repeated anything similar since. Maybe they had one in the lab, intended as a field upgrade, but it never happened. Maybe he was always talking with adapters in his mind.
It's possible that there's a homeplug PHY chip hiding away somewhere in the car that hasn't been noticed by anybody doing the tear-downs, but it seems really unlikely at this stage.
Nothing would make me happier than to be proved wrong....�
Jan 31, 2016
RDoc Here's an article from Aug 2011 saying that SAE and IEEE were cooperating specifically on HomePlug of J1772 Combo
http://articles.sae.org/10128/
and a paper from July 2011 stating that SAE Combo would use PLC communications
http://www.sae.org/standardsdev/news/P111164.pdf
As far as how the PLC might be implemented in the Model S, at the time it was being designed, there weren't any dedicated Homeplug Green PHY modems AFAIK, however, it's my understanding that there were several implementations of IEEE 1901 on DSP's including the TMS320 which is in the Model S.
http://www.cygnuscorp.com/autorem%20paper%20r4.pdf�
Feb 4, 2016
matbl Or maybe it was just in a draft.
For a quick look in any (?) IEC standard, there is also the option to use the estonian standards agency (evs.ee) to do online browsing (webpage and standard still in english). 2 EUR per standard, might be cheaper then going to the library if you have to pay for parking...�
Apr 9, 2016
TaoJones Am gearing up to journey into the hinterlands and noticed that there are a few SAE/CCS chargers listed within Plugshare (for example, at a BMW dealership *twitch*) for the areas in question.
Now that we're rapidly encroaching upon Summer 2016, is there still no adapter available such that Teslas can utilize SAE/CCS chargers?�
Apr 9, 2016
Chris TX Not yet. Tesla has recently become a member of the CCS group CharIN. I think that membership would be needed to be able to supply a certified adapter.�
Apr 9, 2016
TaoJones Thanks. All in good time, maybe. Looks like I'll rely upon the kindness of Nissan dealership managers during business hours only with throttled (by manufacture) 20kW units (and my trusty ChaDeMo adapter) in the meantime.�
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