Jun 30, 2016
Spidy I really don't understand how everyone is so certain the Mercedes E-Class would not have had a chance here. It has the better hardware, especially with the stereo-cameras and Cross-Traffic-Assist seems to be exactly the feature for this case. Not to mention Active-Brake-Assist seems to do much better with stationary objects.
Yes, I realize that's all in a test environment, but the S-Class didn't even get it done there.
And of course the sun could have cause the same issues for the car, that's simply something we don't know.�
Jun 30, 2016
Magus High speed accident, 18 wheeler turning, car drove through undercarriage. Yup, doubt it.�
Jun 30, 2016
LargeHamCollider I don't know the exact conditions of the accident in question but I get the impression here that people think direct sunlight will not affect radar performance, it absolutely will, some radars more than others.�
Jun 30, 2016
xav- Of course MB system would have saved the driver! Think any driver would ever feel confident enough about the system to stop paying attention to the road? That's a problem MB doesn't have to worry about.�
Jul 1, 2016
KZKZ Curious? Not really when you consider Telsa's approach to semi-autonomous driving vs. Mercedes and Volvo and the rest.
Mercedes backs up their disclaimers that the driver is always in control with software. Mercedes software actually forces the driver to be engaged. Mercedes backs up their words with software that requires the driver to engage the car every 60 seconds.
Tesla on the other hand does not back up their "requirement" to "always" have your hands on the wheel. This board is full of examples of Tesla software not matching their legal disclaimers. A person sleeping behind the wheel, no driver in the front seats, Teslas traveling for significant durations without any software nanny warnings.
If Tesla truly thought it was so important to "always" have a hand on the wheel as they claim, wouldn't their software back up their own "requirement"?�
Jul 1, 2016
mikeash Apparently the Mercedes system can be fooled into thinking you're present by just taping something heavy to the wheel. If they really thought it was that important, wouldn't they do something more reliable?
Both systems just have legal CYA maneuvers for "hands on the wheel." Tesla's happens to be less strict, but neither one is particularly safety related.�
Jul 1, 2016
KZKZ The E-Class uses a fusion of several multi mode radars that have multiple overlapping views of the road. They provide a longer range view as well as a wider view of the road close in.
Combined with stereo cameras, the E-Class is capable of picking out stationary and slow moving objects including those that are crossing perpendicularly across it's path.
In this example of being able to stop for stationary objects, the E-Class can properly pick out which lane the stationary obstruction is and stop well before impacting that stationary object.
�
Jul 1, 2016
calisnow TMC member "KZKZ" joined us less than two weeks ago and has only 61 posts - a huge portion of which are devoted to criticizing Tesla's autopilot system and making other subtle and not-so-subtle negative comments about Tesla - even questioning its business model. This member also mysteriously will not allow other members to view their profile. It's kind of weird - KZKZ doesn't speak in a normal conversational toner, never says anything funny, smiles, reacts in a normal conversational voice - it's just a continuous stream of saying negative things about Tesla.
I'm no fan boy - I've criticized Tesla myself - but usually real people are balanced in what they right - there's a mix of comments. With KZKZ something sounds "off." The person claims to have a Model 3 reservation, but I smell something. Not sure what it is. Short? short short short. . .
�
Jul 1, 2016
LargeHamCollider Yah his behavior is definitely that of someone with a financial interest in Tesla failing, I was guessing he works for a competitor though.�
Jul 1, 2016
KZKZ
Lol, you guys are too funny !!!Is that better?
The emoticons are pretty limited here.
I guess I just need to dumb down my posts. I will try to improve!!!! Thank you for the feedback!�
Jul 1, 2016
MarkS22 Cool. Let's improve. What model Tesla are you interested in? The S, X, or 3? You have 64 messages in a couple weeks on the Tesla Motors Club. Despite knowing an incredible amount about the E-Class, you obviously have a serious interest in Tesla. What do you love so much about the Tesla brand compared to Mercedes?
�
Jul 1, 2016
SR22pilot I noticed a pattern when the suspension failure was the hot topic. There were several posters who showed up and heavily criticized Tesla. No matter how good the opposing argument they never changed. Furthermore, when it was shown that other vehicles had similar issues and were worse they failed to acknowledge it. Their only interest was and is in slamming Tesla. The next thing I noticed was the join date and then the pattern of posts. Most people who join TMC start with some basic questions and participate in several threads as they come up to speed on the car. They often discuss things like their first test drive or ask where they can get a ride. This new group, however, had recent join dates and only went to a couple of threads where they slammed Tesla. People like KZKZ seem to exist solely to criticize Tesla. They will often get sanctimonious about how they are out to protect people and yet they don't comment on cars that are worse.
Consider my last statement and this thread. It is one thing to compare Tesla to Mercedes in different safety areas. It is something else to imply that if Tesla is behind Mercedes in an area then Tesla is dangerous and ... well you get the idea. The fact is that there are many AEB systems out there and the systems are improving. Even the poorer systems aid the driver. This is the "Merchants of Doubt" scenario all over again.
I strongly suspect the shorts are smelling blood again and want to push this. What is frustrating to me is that I expect their have already been several "self driving" fatalities but they were probably in Mercedes or Hyundai so they went unnoticed.
IT's getting frustrating. An American company builds a unique product and is very successful. They hire American workers and expand in the US. The company's reward is that they can't sell in some states and people try to destroy them for their own personal gain. Jay Leno says we have become a nation that prefers failures over successes. Sadly I think he is correct.
Ok, end of rant. I love a great debate which involves intellectual discussion. People out to hurt others for personal gain infuriate me.�
Jul 1, 2016
Magus SR22,
Posted elsewhere but the shorts number in the billions in terms of dollars. There is a recent article about the shorts and how much of Tesla's valuation is short money. You can bet money when Tesla comes up there is a potentially very strong and negative reaction that is entirely financially motivated.
Money is a powerful motivator even when people claim it is not. For example why would pharmaceutical companies pay money to market to physicians if it didn't pay off? Lots of studies on that. Biggest example is in politics.
Our friends at GM early in its history bought out public transit to make cars successful and lead to suburbs and basically a lifestyle revolving around cars.�
Jul 1, 2016
calisnow I agree with you. The amount of negative press on Tesla is something to behold - I don't blame Elon for saying there is a conspiracy theory. It really does seem like many journalists and plain ordinary Americans do not want to see someone succeed in such a big way. If ever it were possible to feel sorry for a billionaire then Elon Musk is the one I feel sorry for.
I wouldn't blame him if one day he threw up his hands, shouted "Pearls before swine! F*ck all you ungrateful fools and haters" sold his stock and retired to an island somewhere.�
Jul 1, 2016
GoTslaGo That's because Elon violates a fundamental stereotype we have constructed in this world:
"Rich people are evil and only care to make themselves richer. Therefore everything they do must be for their own gain and must be viewed as such. Altruism/concern from a rich person is just another way of expressing their selfishness and serves to boost their own ego. Only the poor can be good."�
Jul 2, 2016
KZKZ The Model 3, but only with AP 2.0 and only if it can detect stationary objects. What I like most about the Model 3 is it will be in my price range.
What I know about the Mercedes Drive Pilot is because there is so much detailed information about it released by Mercedes, with very detailed descriptions about the hardware including charts of the distance and angles of view that the car see, lots of videos in various situations.
I have no idea what AP2.0 will offer but I know enough about AP1.0 to feel that the hardware is way too limited for how people are using the car.�
Jul 2, 2016
KZKZ Thank you Spidy for posting the video, its very long and I don't speak German so I scanned through most of it.
I like the crossing traffic test at 1:11:00
Can you tell what speed they're traveling during the test at 1:13:00?
At 1:14:30, what are they demonstrating? The vehicle detects the crossing traffic and determines it won't be a factor or what?
Also, would you mind translating what they're saying during the test at 1:16:30?
Danke!�
Jul 2, 2016
xG35 mercedes and tesla are taking very different approach to the same problem.. same with gm, volvo and etc.
Tesla is designing a driver assist that incrementally becomes better and mimicks semi autonomous driving in certain situations.
All other manufacturers are going for the home run which is autonomous driving or none at all.
at the heart of the argument is software vs hardware. You can argue more hardware is always better that is you assume that your software can leverage all the inputs efficiency. The more source of data the more translation and analysis required. Most traditional companies will prefer to add more hardware because you can market it and it provides the illusion of value to end customer. Ask yourself this question, how can google advertise that their search engine is better than bling? you can't and no one will get it if you try.
at the heart of tesla is not the camera and sensor.. is the data it collects from everyone. by going after big data you are after predictive and learning ai vs a rule based system. And that is why autopilot in real world still performs so much better than all other manufacturers. This is a silicon Valley vs engineer approach.�
Jul 2, 2016
SR22pilot I agree on the software and big data part. I disagree about MB et. al. going for the home run. On paper the latest MB system does everything Tesla's AP does except lane change. Actually it does more "on paper." It just doesn't stay in the lane as well. I think blind spot detection may be better than Tesla and I suspect auto braking is equal.�
Jul 2, 2016
michaelwb For the record, I own TSLA stock and appreciate KZKZ's contributions to this forum. It is troubling how the standard response to criticism in these circles is suspicion, defamation of character, etc. Here's my two cents.
To me, it's obvious that the optional system on the new E-Class has more safety capabilities than current Autopilot (I'm sure future iterations of Autopilot will have more hardware and capabilities):
- E-Class can detect lateral, cross path traffic
- E-Class can can detect stationary vehicles from a distance
- E-Class can detect pedestrians
That said, Autopilot is tuned to mimic autonomous driving, as xG35 said, with much better lane-centering abilities than DRIVE PILOT. This creates a sense of user confidence, right up until the moment there's a situation that Autopilot was not designed to address. Tesla can do a better job educating Autopilot users with what the system can and cannot do.
It's really a difference in approach. Tesla's system builds confidence with impeccable lane centering behavior, allowing users to not touch the steering wheel for miles and miles. DRIVE PILOT (no idea why Mercedes capitalizes non-acronyms...) still requires constant human input and nags the driver to hold the steering wheel, which is the more conservative and, in my opinion, the more appropriate approach given current limitations. It certainly doesn't have the same cool factor though, which is what makes Tesla so unique and talked about.�
Jul 2, 2016
michaelwb 1:13:00 - I heard the driver say "neunzig", which is ninety. The speedometer also shows 90. So they were likely approaching stationary traffic at 90 km/h (56 mph). The car first chimed the alarm, started "soft" braking, then engaged maximum braking as it approached the faux vehicle in front.�
Jul 2, 2016
SR22pilot I'll bite on this. My question is whether the person joined TMC out of a sincere interest in the car vs. an agenda to slam the car and manipulate the stock. Most new users go through a process. Some say "hello" while others lurk for a bit. You may see questions such as whether a particular option is worth the money or how much difference upgrading the sound system makes. Others ask questions involving charging on long distance trips. However, on the thread about the broken ball join there was a group of users that shared a common profile. All had joined recently and all had only posted heavily critical posts. They were quick to call for all Teslas to be recalled or to have government action taken against Tesla. It became clear they had an agenda and it wasn't about honest open debate of the issues.
You mention the E class. That is Mercedes' latest system and it isn't even deployed on their other cars yet. The regular Distronic Plus manual lists inability to detect stationary objects as a limitation. I think we all want better lateral intrusion detection and better emergency braking but Tesla is not an outlier in this area. Heck the majority of cars lack any AEB system. It is better to have a limited AEB which mitigated rear end collisions rather than nothing at all but that's not what some people are calling for. Some people rail against Tesla when other cars are much worse. Personally I want to see a move to phased array scanning radar or to scanning LIDAR.�
Jul 2, 2016
SR22pilot Here is a report from the early days of trying to get AEB adopted.
https://circabc.europa.eu/sd/a/3ab87fdc-5715-4733-af50-c3608034ca56/report_aebs_en.pdf
Notice the there were numerous types of accidents not being used since they were deemed difficult to handle:
Rule out additional crash types: Exclude crossing no turns, crossing vehicle turning, merging, right turn against, Manoeuvring. Reason for ruling out other crash types is that they would either leave no time to react and therefore not be able to helped by a current system or the system sensors would not be able to perform in that scenario. ?
Now we are much further along and it is great that lateral intrusions are being attacked. I expect Tesla AP 2 to also be much better with a vastly improved set of sensors. Competition in this area will make all vehicles safer. Right now I just wish my car had any form of AEB.�
Jul 2, 2016
MarkS22 I'm not sure where you're seeing the "standard response," but I own both a Tesla and Mercedes. I've been very clear that Mercedes has better isolated safety features. For example, Pre-Safe is fantastic. It uses rear radar to flash the brake lights and warn a fast approaching car. If they don't stop, it locks the brakes and tightens the seat belts. Tesla doesn't have anything like that. The blind spot detection is vastly superior on the Mercedes. It has more intuitive lights on the mirrors, better detection of fast accelerating cars coming up in the lane next to you, and beeps if you put on your turn signal when there's danger. It's very well implemented. Pedestrian detection and cross traffic (at least for 2016, which they claim to be on) is mixed... not nearly as "wow" as the previous two examples. A large deer darted out across the road this week and nothing went off. (To be fair, it's "pedestrian" and "cross traffic" not "animal.) But, I haven't ever seen it detect or warn about pedestrian in months, including some times where I feel it might have been useful?
What Tesla does much better is TACC/lane keeping with integrated dash UI. There's no comparison there. There's also no argument Mercedes has excellent safety features taking advantage of more sensors. Most of us here can't wait for the next generation of sensors. But for now, and it seems for at least the next year, in terms of TACC/lane keeping (Autopilot vs Drive Pilot) has Tesla coming out in front.
I feel Tesla has explained the capabilities quite well. A single accident (still under investigation) is hardly an indication of a need for mass education after 130 million miles of use. Just my opinion, but I'm very upfront where Mercedes is superior and I'm happy to discuss it here. I have two young children and my wife drives them often in that Mercedes, which is why I appreciate all those safety features. I don't know how much more of an endorsement you can get for their safety technology.�
Jul 2, 2016
luca
autopilot can also detect lateral, cross path traffic lol
�
Jul 2, 2016
luca And autopilot can also detect stationary vehicles from a distance and pedestrians
�
Jul 3, 2016
SR22pilot This really isn't lateral cross traffic. The vehicle is only totally lateral at the end where the Tesla has stopped already. It is, however, a great example of how useful the present system is.�
Jul 3, 2016
techmaven KZKZ has thrown some marketing literature our way, but is actually very misleading on the facts. He keeps making arguments that this is a sensor or hardware missing problem. It is not. It is a software issue in handling false positives. The hardware, at a sensory level was sufficient. Instead, recognizing the lack of an obstruction at ground level and sorting through the height clearance issues without causing too many false positives is the issue at hand. If the truck has side skirts, the AEB would have altered the circumstances greatly. If the intersection point was the cab or the wheels, even without side view cameras or software that recognizes the size of a tractor trailer, the AEB would have stepped in.
As shipped, the 2017 E-class semi-autonomous system is far more dangerous than the Tesla one simply due to UI design at the moment. As for the performance of the rest of the systems, we would have to do much more testing to know... There is a lot of software tuning that makes most of the difference. Additional hardware makes no difference if the system can't use it in a better way.�
Jul 4, 2016
KZKZ That's an awesome point that you make, that the E-Class that the State of Nevada certified is testing "exactly what everyone's tesla is already doing."
That's a great perspective of what's going on.
I think this will be just one of the issues NHTSA will be looking into after the fatal AutoPilot accident.
Should average consumers be "testing" beta semi-autonomous features on public roads?
Why does one company go through a certification process using trained test drivers and another company uses the public to test beta software.�
Jul 4, 2016
KZKZ
Thanks for the translation! Its good to see the vehicle went all the way to 0 autonomously.�
Jul 4, 2016
KZKZ The video you posted states it failed both pedestrian tests by not automatically braking.
Are you saying it does or does not automatically brake for pedestrians?�
Jul 4, 2016
KZKZ fyi
Mobileye released a statement that confirms the limitation of their current system in relation to crossing traffic.
�We have read the account of what happened in this case. Today�s collision avoidance technology, or Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB) is defined as rear-end collision avoidance, and is designed specifically for that. This incident involved a laterally crossing vehicle, which current-generation AEB systems are not designed to actuate upon. Mobileye systems will include Lateral Turn Across Path (LTAP) detection capabilities beginning in 2018, and the Euro NCAP safety ratings will include this beginning in 2020.�
Tesla Autopilot partner Mobileye comments on fatal crash, says tech isn�t meant to avoid this type of accident [Updated]�
Jul 4, 2016
KZKZ The MB does lane change too.
It's interesting to see MB's approach to the issue. Mercedes approach is heavy with additional sensors. It includes a rear and side facing multi-mode radars in addition to the normal ultra-sonic sensors. Mercedes also calls the system Lane Change ASSIST.
�
Jul 4, 2016
trils0n Tesla will certainly add more sensors for their next gen autopilot. If that is important to you, you should wait for the next generation, as it will undoubtedly be more capable. This is Tesla's first gen autopilot setup. As I understand it, the new 2017 E-Class hardware is a step up from the recently redesigned 2016 S-Class, which had more sensors/capability than MB's previous version. So at least the 3rd iteration, right?
I think what is impressive is that Tesla has done so much with such a limited suite of sensors. The performance exceeds cars with better sensor suites in a few areas. Can't wait to see what they bring out in their next gen version with more sensors.
Will MB upgrade the software so actual capabilities can more closely match the potential of the extensive sensors? If MB isn't going to get the performance up to the promise of it's sensors, it seems like quite the wasted opportunity.�
Jul 4, 2016
SR22pilot I say kudos to MB for their sensor suite. Competition is great. This enhanced sensor suite was released after Tesla's gen 1 AP system. For the most part manufacturers have been ignoring Tesla. As consumers we are better off when competition is taken seriously.�
Jul 4, 2016
Drivin That is the most hysterical comment I have read here! Thanks for that!
Sure, someone can post an unsubstantiated anonymous comment in a forum (ranked all the way in the top 35,000 websites!) and it will result in a sufficiently large decline of a $20B highly traded stock so the person can profit from it enough while escaping the scrutiny of the SEC.
Sure. That makes total sense. LOL.
Now of course that is totally different from the people who would post how much they love the company/stock even though their X has been back in the shop 3 times - they would never do that because they wanted to keep the stock up. LOL.
There are also people who whine about negative posters because they feel that they will drive the stock down, or profit from it, so they play kill the messenger because they think that will actually help prop up the stock. Those people are far more damaging to the brand.�
Jul 4, 2016
xav- Mobileye is so advanced it can detect a turd 200 feet ahead.. But a massive truck crossing 50 feet ahead? Nope�
Jul 4, 2016
Saghost Am I wrong in thinking that the car sounds the alert for a little while before the emergency braking kicks in?
You got the alert, which means the car saw him and the danger - my guess is the car would have hit the brakes pretty late, after the point you decided to intervene this time.
Having said that, I'm certainly not suggesting rerunning the test and waiting - you're already a lot closer to hitting someone than I'm comfortable with, and I could be wrong.�
Jul 4, 2016
cronosx detect is one thing, act.. is another thing.
You can detect one thing, but not being sure it need to be addressed, and when you aren't sure, it's best not to act. it's counter intuictive, but acting in a false-positive case is much wrost than not doing something.
So, yes, surely they detected it, but at the moment they weren't sure it needs to be addressed.
They will address more case every new iteration and in due time they will address 99.9% of the cases, but just not yet�
Jul 5, 2016
SR22pilot So why then would someone join a forum solely to put down Tedla? I don't see the same thing happening on BMW or MB forums. I understand owners with issues looking for answers or simply complaining about the car they own. Why would someone who doesn't own a Resla join TMC just to bash Tesla's? If it was an agenda with a particular technology then I would expect to see them on other forums. However, if a single ball joint fails on a Tesla then it is something horrible but ball joint failures on other cars are fine. An accident in a Tesla is horrible but one in a Mercedes is ok.
BTW the suspension issue reporting did affect the stock price and the source for the reports was mostly TMC.�
Jul 20, 2016
eyespii Here's another video review of the 2017 E-class driving itself. Even with the extra hardware and sensors in the MB, it still seems like it's a half-step behind autopilot in the MS (60s timed nag, foot on accelerator to resume from stop).
�
Jul 21, 2016
Snerruc MB asvertising the E as self driving in the current furor seems crazy to me. The lawyers are going to love their ad campaign fot the new E.�
Jul 21, 2016
Saghost 15 seconds between prompts and it stops the car after 60 seconds? Not much of an autonomous car in my book.�
Jul 21, 2016
KZKZ Exactly! It's the specially licensed E-Class models that are approved for full autonomous driving in Nevada. Those models have the same hardware, but different software that does away with the "keep hands on wheel nag". Those E-Class's are the first production model car to be licensed as a fully autonomous car.�
Jul 27, 2016
MarkS22 A new hands-on review of Tesla Autopilot vs the new E-Class Drive Pilot from "The Drive" by Alex Roy, author of "The Driver" and 2007 Transcontinental "Cannonball Run" Record holder:
The War For Autonomous Driving: 2017 Mercedes-Benz E-Class VS. 2017 Tesla Model S
Drive Pilot Situational Awareness: Disaster ("Drive Pilot gets a zero.")
Drive Pilot Voluntary Engagement and Disengagement: Another Disaster
Drive Pilot Steering: Another Disaster ("This is actually a dangerous product. The car will steer itself into oncoming traffic.")
Drive Pilot Upgradeability: None.
"As intrusive as it is incompetent, Drive Pilot is a dead end as Level 2 AD, and a catastrophe as anything more."
And before anyone claims bias, this same guy raved about the 2016 Mercedes AMG GT S and is featured in "Sponsored Content" by Mercedes called "Legendary Roads." (It's literally "Presented by Mercedes Benz.")
�
Jul 28, 2016
zambono FTC has been asked to investigate Mercedes over Drive Pilot due to their claims in adds,
http://jalopnik.com/federal-trade-commission-asked-to-investigate-mercedes-1784419463�
Aug 13, 2016
AlexRoy144 Thanks for reposting this. I'm doing another deep dive into the Mercedes system now.
Best,
Alex Roy�
Aug 13, 2016
Spidy Please make a video this time. There is just nothing out there. I don't want to read several pages, just get a camera and drive down some highway and film it. Maybe get a passenger and talk about Drive Pilot and the car while driving. Done.�
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