Feb 5, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Folks, I've got this awkward feeling of late: a sense of "guilt" when talking to my coworkers, friends (offline and online) and neighbors about my upcoming Model S delivery sometime this year!
Granted, many of these have pretty good cars of their own - Porsches, Corvette, BMWs etc. - but, for some of them, affording an EV let alone a Tesla is something of a dream. And, in my drive to promote EVs in general and Tesla in particular by wearing a Tesla shirt to work, posting Tesla pics to FB, bringing the topic up over lunch etc., I got the sense that atleast some of them might be interpreting it as yours truly "showing off" to some degree!
Anyone in the same boat? I guess it's also a function of the circles that you move in but, I'm trying to stay as grounded as possible while EVangelizing, if you know what I mean...�
Feb 5, 2012
dlmorgan999 Indeed! Most of my co-workers are excited about it (one of them just took delivery of his new Audi A6 so he completely understands :wink: ), but a few of them joked "so you're going to put down a deposit, right?" expecting me to say no. When I said "I already did" they were very surprised and some of them seemed to react as you describe.�
Feb 5, 2012
Dan5 Yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat. (For me, no kids, no mortgage, no loans so I can afford stuff)
I say don't worry about it- when all is said and done, you are on the cutting edge and by you purchasing it now, the prices for the next generation of cars will go down, so that they will be able to afford an EV.
When someone asked me why I am getting one at the lunch table, my response was- "really, for me, the monthly payment is the same as it would be for your car + gas and gas cars are a vicious cycle , you buy one, have to constantly put money in it (gas, maintenance, etc), and when you sell the car it's worthless, and I tell them to try to get out of that cycle"
You are in affect helping them, because your purchase along with the other Tesla purchasers will decrease the cost of gasoline slightly, enabling future EV people to be able to save up more and purchase an EV.
I promised quite a number of people rides in it also.�
Feb 5, 2012
ChadS I know what you mean; I felt awkward when I bought my Roadster. I'd never paid even $20k for a car before, and suddenly I was showing off one that was over $100k. Some people really hate "rich douchebags" driving around in fancy cars--I have been called that online; although people are generally more circumspect in person. It didn't help that my wife and I chose yellow (largely for safety). In the end, I decided that while people that don't know me may decide to dislike me on superficial grounds, they were still bound to like the car, and end up feeling better about electrics in general. So I show off the car as often as I can and don't worry about it; the response is generally quite good. The few snide comments have been from people that haven't spoken with me at all.
One thing for those that complain about price to consider is that the Mitsubishi i-Miev starts at $29,125. That $21,625 after the federal tax credit; and many states have some sort of incentive that will bring that under $20k. People of lesser means will no doubt get a loan and be making payments; so from the very first payment they can subtract their average $120/month fuel savings, which makes the total monthly outlay similar to a much cheaper gas car. I think in general, if you can afford a new car at all, you can afford an electric. Sure the i-Miev is not the nicest electric, and sure not everybody can afford a new car--but it's unreasonable to ask electrics to solve those problems.
Another thing to consider is that one good way to bring the price of electrics down is to get the volume up. Those of us paying way more for electrics than we ever would for a gas car are making an investment to help future buyers get a more affordable version.�
Feb 5, 2012
Mycroft Or could it be that they're just sick of hearing about it all the time?I would recommend not saying anything unless asked.
As for guilt, most of my acquaintances can't afford something like that. But, by being early adopters, we make possible the next, cheaper generation of EVs. So when they say, "well that's all fine and good for the rich guys", you can say that you stretched your finances to squeeze the car in, enabling the next generation to be priced on the level of a Lexus and the generation after that to make it down to Civic levels. By then, there should be a used market as well.�
Feb 5, 2012
rlawson4 That is exactly correct. The original iPhone was 599/699. I bought one. Now it's 199/299. The early adopter provides the return on R&D that allows economies of scale to develop for lower priced products later on. The Roadster buyers are somewhat supplementing the model s purchases and so on. Elon has essentially said that in various interviews.
The same is true with ICE automobiles. My 2010 Fusion Hybrid has features that were first seen in luxury cars 5 years earlier. The new 2013 Fusion Hybrid has even more luxury features for essentially the same price (adjusted for inflation) as the 2010.
I don't feel guilt for my ability to buy the model S. I do feel some uneasiness spending 90K on the car (as priced with my selected options) because I have to overcome the thought that I am not a luxury person. It's not who I have been. I have had nice things but wonder if this purchase meets my style. However, the fact that I can easily afford it is because my style has been to live on 25% of my income.�
Feb 5, 2012
ElSupreme I don't really feal guilt per say. But I am fairly young and I don't really think people will like the fact I am driving a 63k car. But after tax rebates and fuel savings it is going to work out over 5 years to cost about the same as a 35k car. Which all the people at my office my age have. I really don't want to justify the cost.
The real bummer about the 63k price tag is that it will be the pricyest car in my lot. Even costlier than the CEOs of our ~60 person engineering firm. He drives probably a ~45k F150.�
Feb 5, 2012
brianman "The few snide comments have been from people that haven't spoken with me at all."
There are some people that can't be reached, and aren't worth reaching. Never worth your time to stress about them. Just don't upset them enough that they would key you or somesuch.
As for the rest...
It's all about presentation and audience.
The gossip types want to know everything; you can babble all day about every last detail and they'll eat it up.
The EV types will want to know all the green details -- and/or project their own understandings into the discussions; sharing what you know as fact and gently offering course corrections on their "facts" is an art form, but can be very effective.
The car-as-a-black-box type will want to see it race, how long between fillups, how long the fillups take, and the effective $/mi. They don't care what's under the hood. They aren't EVangelists nor ICE-zealots; the underlying technology is just a means to an end -- a fun, effective transportation device.
The gear heads. They "know" ICE. They like ICE. Partly because they know it. For some change is exciting, for some it's scary. For the excited, it's a mix between the gossip ("knowledge" sponge) and the EVangelist (new tech is cool because it's new). For the scared subtype, some will fall into the "can't be reached" crowd; others will be resistant but can be lead from the dark (scared) toward the light (excitement).
Know your audience, tailor the discussion (or avoid it) accordingly.�
Feb 5, 2012
ahimberg I think a big thing that contributes to this is the belief that getting a Tesla is still going to be a 120k+ purchase (many people assume the pricing is the same as the roadster). But vaulting into the $ sooner or more often may make things worse.�
Feb 5, 2012
dsm363 I wouldn't feel guilty. Especially if those same people own Porsches and BMWs since you'll be basically in the same market with this car. As was said above, you're also paying an early adopter penalty to help make EVs more affordable in the future for others. Tesla seems to be different. People want to hear about it and will ask you. Very little advertising needed.�
Feb 5, 2012
bonnie I felt that way at first with my Roadster. I was a single parent for most of my son's childhood & money was tight early in my career. So I understand the comments at times. I typically just point out they still have kids to put through college, mortgages to pay, and they are earlier in their career than I am in mine.
One person mumbled that my Roadster purchase was a clear sign that I was having a mid-life crisis. I just laughed and said, 'well I was ... but I purchased my Roadster and the crisis seems to be gone'.�
Feb 5, 2012
Doug_G I'm not someone who likes to go around showing off expensive stuff. The Roadster is my one exception... no getting around it... it's just a wee bit flashy. Comes with the territory. But that aspect of it allows me to spread the word about electric cars on a daily basis, so I figure that flashiness is doing something positive - changing people's perceptions about green technology.
No one has ever said anything unpleasant (at least not to my face) or acted funny. Sometimes if they ask how much it cost they're a bit surprised (I round down to the nearest 100k). Overall people I've met have been very receptive; they either think the car looks really cool, performs really cool, or it's really cool that it's 100% electric. Sometimes all three, sometimes one or two.
The Model S is certainly an attractive car, but is unlikely to be nearly the attention-getter that the Roadster is. People who are car nuts or follow Tesla will notice. Some people will see the nice lines, not recognize the car, and look closer. Most will not even look at it twice.�
Feb 5, 2012
AnOutsider Yeah, in the cases where they're driving luxury cars themselves, there should be no guilt. I tend to watch discussing pricy buys in certain situations though. It can get awkward and like you said, end up with them resenting you because they think you're showing off (or are somehow the reason THEY can't afford one).
When I talk about the S I talk about how cool it is and try to stay away from money. Always a touchy subject in mixed company.�
Feb 5, 2012
efusco I'm a physician, so I guess there's already a bit of expectation that I should have a nice car-so for the past 8+ years I've gotten to surprise people by telling them I drive a Prius! But I usually try to attenuate those comments a bit by telling them that while it's a bit expensive, that it still starts under $60k and since you never pay for gas and very little maintenance it balances over time. Also, I usually emphesis that I've been saving for it for over 3 years and that I see it as my 'duty' to support the technology so that prices will come down in years to come so they'll be more affordable for everyone...I usually then segue in talk of the Bluestar and how it's expected to be around $30k and Tesla's long term plans, and etc...�
Feb 5, 2012
PattyChuck Most of my friends and co-workers are without the means to purchase this vehicle. Most of them, however, are tech-heads, and enjoy discussing technology. When the subject of the Tesla comes up, the first question I am always asked, without fail so far, is, "How much do they cost?" I feel guilty admitting the price, but I believe they are asking because if the price was right, they'd want to buy one, too. I usually discuss price by saying, "They're starting at $50K, and then they go up from there depending on the options." What I usually don't tell them is that the model I'm interested in is much closer to $100K, and I usually follow efusco's line and admit that I've been saving up for the car. After a short discussion about never having to fill up at the gas pump, do oil changes, tune-ups, etc, the discussion usually moves away from price.�
Feb 5, 2012
PeterW What Other People Think of Me is None of My Business | Mind Recipes
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Feb 5, 2012
strider I live in a pretty affluent area but I feel weird when people ask me what my Roadster cost. Most people are surprised and then I tell them how it's hand-made, all carbon fiber, limited edition etc and then launch into my Model S sales pitch. For Model S I say that they're targeting BMW 5-series/Audi A6 size and price point and everyone I've talked to have been excited about that. Those cars are quite common around here so it's in the realm for "normal" people. If they really dig in to the pricing details I remind them that you can option a 5-series to $95k without even getting the M motor. I also talk about how I went from spending 13$/day to commute in my Corvette to $1/day in my Roadster. I explain that I'm not going to make my money back on the Roadster and that it was an emotional decision (+carpool lane access) but with Model S there can be significant savings over buying gas and the numbers can absolutely work even with having to replace the battery pack in 8 years or so.�
Feb 5, 2012
gmontem I used to feel guilty of my P reservation, but I managed to convince myself that my future Model S purchase will be no different than someone proudly announcing a purchase of a home here in California.
5 year Model S loan > 30 year mortgage�
Feb 5, 2012
dmckinstry Should I feel guilty that I can buy a house? I don't need to now, since it's paid off. I'm using up most of my "discretionary" spending for the next 10 years for this car.�
Feb 5, 2012
Sparrow I bought my Roadster used on eBay so when questioned about its cost I always point to the discounted price I bought it for thus making my buy look like a great deal. I won't have that excuse for my S, but you see so many expensive cars on the road anyways and with the large price swing with various options and battery packs for the S, most people really won't think have any idea what it is worth. I will probably tell people that ask the base price of the car and leave it at that.�
Feb 5, 2012
brianman That's what most people want to know anyway.�
Feb 5, 2012
Robert.Boston A lot of people in my office connect "Tesla" with "expensive sports car", so I always start by saying, "Oh, this is the new sedan -- it's priced like a BMW." Because people in my company are well paid, and I'm one of the senior officers, that about settles it.
One of the best turns of event was when I put the RC Roadster, which I received from Tesla in 2010, in as my "Yankee swap" entry to the office holiday party, along with a drive in the S once it arrives. It turned into the most-coveted item at the swap, and turned the whole purchase into something more convivial.�
Feb 5, 2012
agileone Just tell them the plain truth : you can't afford buying gas anymore... : -)
That will get there head spinning for a while ...�
Feb 5, 2012
PV4EV (this started out as 2 paragraphs but ended up as half my life story�)
I don�t feel any 'guilt' at all quite the opposite. However, I am slightly self conscious discussing the purchase price. I've often justified my peculiar route to ownership by telling people it actually cost me nothing � and was paid for by selling unused 'stuff' on ebay that was lying around the house - read on if you want to know more !
People who know me know that I've been talking about EV's for years, as well as all sorts of energy harvesting techniques, or certain technology areas. I've wanted an EV ever since following all the T-Zero and AC Propulsion PR about 7 or 8 yrs ago, and Tesla's very earliest website announcements in about 2005/6 ( I think ?).
In 2009 I put some serious design work into doing my own EV conversion on a good looking 4WD Italian car, which would have been a lot of fun, but probably a lot of headaches and as vast amount of time as well. RHD Roadsters had started appearing 2 yrs ago and acquiring one was going to save a lot of time and result in a far more refined EV with twice the likely range of my own project, although sub 100mph performance would have been similar. I also looked into importing a LHD used car from the USA, but HAZMAT restrictions put a stop to that.
So, after a cursory test drive of a RHD car last year, I decided to buy a Tesla, and justified its purchase price psychologically by deciding to sell a high value ICE race car I built years ago, rather than sink more funds into another depreciating asset !
However, trying to sell a track car at the wrong time of the year proved to be a bad idea, and it currently remains unsold (I've got to wait until the sun comes out again, in spring�). So, to pay for the Roadster I did something quite bizarre - I used ebay to rapidly sell off some unusual watches from a collection that I piled up years ago, many of which have spent years in a safe collecting dust. To my amazement, they sold for more than I was expecting. Add to this a few abandoned Pinball machines and other weird things, and I hit the target quite quick.
Here in the UK, there's only about 30+ Roadsters out there, so they are a rare sight. I think 95% of people subliminally accept it as a Lotus Elise which are well respected and do not suffer from the British disease of jealousy that comes out when a Ferrari or Lambo is spotted in the wild (I've been fortunate to own various Italian exotica and could write volumes on the generally negative reaction I've had). Plus, the Roadsters registration plate is a bit obscure and doesn�t shout that its brand new - another British problem. The convoluted thing here is that if you win the lottery, the masses think that�s great, but if you make it by working hard to achieve dreams - then you get despised. Weird.
In the past, any car comments would normally happen when filling up at a petrol station. Now this happens wherever I park. Generally, they have been overwhelmingly positive, usually because they realise what it is, and want to ask a 1000 questions. Many refer to the film 'Who killed the Electric Car' or ask questions about the whole Top-Gear mess.
Without a doubt, 100% of the people who have been out my Roadster have been totally converted into EV fans, who go forth to preach to others like they're on a mission from God.
They also get the full-on evangelical sales pitch about both the greenness of the car, and the financial incentives to owning an EV in the UK that 99% of people haven't got a clue about. These include some serious tax benefits like getting an instant 25% discount on the purchase price by being allowed to offset the whole purchase cost against corporation tax (excellent for self employed or company purchasers) and running costs of 1.7p of electricity per mile versus about 40p mile in a petrol car, and the lack of moving parts in need of servicing, and not having to pay any road taxes, or congestion charges, or parking fees etc etc etc.
Most Europeans have to suffer stupidly high petrol prices of �6.50 / $10.50 a gallon � Filling up the family ICE car costs �100 now and I'll get 300 miles if I'm lucky, whereas �100 of electricity will give me over 6,000 EV miles whilst providing endless spurts of accelerative fun without breaking the speed limit �
Around about then people start to geddit ...
The UK is awash with negative media on EV's and Chinese-whispers encouraged by the entire petroleum and ICE industries that really don't want you straying away from oil. These include sound bites about Lithium batteries costing more than a house, or that a Nissan leaf will depreciate by 90% in 1 yr, or that cells spontaneously combust, or that the grid will collapse if two EV owners 10 miles apart plug in at the same time. I am constantly surprised by how many people haven't got a clue what they pay for their electricity but know the MPG of their car.
Invariably, there are questions about range anxiety, with most associating EV charging with the accepted process of filling a normal car when it runs out of juice. The process of keeping an EV topped up seems alien to them. After all, how many ICE car owners are used to brimming their tank everyday with readily available fuel at home like EV owners do ?
When asked how long it takes to charge, I usually respond with "10 seconds". Typically I get home, plug the car in, and stick my mobile on its charge stand, which can take 10 seconds. Magically, both are topped up ready for when I next need to drive somewhere, usually the next morning. Parking up at home or the office is like parking at a petrol station, and you rarely 'run the tank dry'. Also, I've never actually needed to charge up at any external charge point, although I'm sure I will one day. Just never had to needed to.
Ironically, the people who are most anxious about range and petrol costs are actually the ones who would most benefit from having an EV !!!!
And just to finish them off, I tell them that the car is ultimately powered by sunlight� which is still free, and is unlikely to be taxed to death anytime soon.
I've had a few snide comments asking how I can justify owning a new car costing more than �5k in a recession with kids starving and polar bears dying due to global warming etc etc, but those people are usually beyond help and don�t respond to some simple facts, logic, tech explanations, or any motivational encouragement. One particular individual got really loud and angry, and harangued me all the way into a supermarket, accusing me of being a capitalist and the sort of person who starts wars (ehh ?), so I finally spun round and asked if he was a pacifist. He said yes, so I went through the motions of rolling my sleeves up ready for a good punching session and he ran off screaming to look for a policeman or something (well almost !). Weird episode that.
Anyway, one final point, the Roadster is a very small car and many passengers have had a job getting in/out with the roof on. At which point I start going on about the Model S, Model X � half the price, twice the range, 7 seats, future developments with battery capacities doubling, graphene, nano stuff.
I think I've pre-sold half a dozen Model S's. I'm surprised Tesla Inc don�t offer incentive commissions to Roadster owners who generate a completed sale��
Feb 5, 2012
neroden Yes. Most people I know can't even afford a new car, period, let alone a Tesla.
I'm trying to EVangelize only to those who can afford it, while offering rides and carpooling to everyone else, with the line "See, you don't have to chip in for gas!" :wink:�
Feb 5, 2012
brianman Let me fix that for you...
�
Feb 5, 2012
Doug_G Sounds like he needed Lithium, not Lithium Ion.
Capitalist and Proud!�
Feb 5, 2012
neroden I have to say, what I tell people asking about the price is always "They'll be cheaper in 5 years. But I'm overdue to get a new car, because I have been putting it off for years until a suitable electric car exists, and this is the first one." People kind of understand that, even though it doesn't make strict financial sense.�
Feb 5, 2012
Mycroft Great story PV4EV! Tesla couldn't afford to give kickbacks for sales because practically all their sales are by word of mouth.�
Feb 5, 2012
Jaff Ditto Doug!
Folks seem much more interested in the technology..."does it work well for daily use & how does it work in general" (and that's for the Roadster).
I've never experienced anything in the way of negative comments.
Besides, it's not anyone's business but my own on how I invest my hard earned money (ok, it's my wife's biz as well :biggrin
�
Feb 5, 2012
vfx I bet when sales slump they will do this like they did with the Roadster.�
Feb 5, 2012
vfx My girl sold her solar panels to buy me a Model S.
:tongue:�
Feb 5, 2012
de704 NO!
Never be ashamed for what you've accomplished. Even If you inherited the money. Somebody worked hard for it.�
Feb 5, 2012
de704 I guess I had the idea that this might be perceived in this way so, I did keep my reservation secret for about a year before mentioning it.�
Feb 5, 2012
vfx The eco cred of an EV goes a long way to negate the ostentatious-ness of a luxury car.�
Feb 5, 2012
ddenboer Almost everyone I work with wants to reserve an S, and many can afford to do so. It was actually my employees and their friends that reminded me that the S existed, and it was the October event and seeing the rear seats that convinced me that instead of a 5-series or E class, I NEEDED a Model S. After filling up both my Civic and my wife's Odyssey this weekend and spending over $100 on gas (and knowing that it is going to get more expensive in the future), even she is convinced.
So, now that I have a reservation, and am waiting for a sig, 3 of my employees are saying that they will put down a deposit in April after tax season is over. They want it too.
So do I feel guilty? Only once in a while when I think that I should be using the money to pay off my mortgage. But to be honest, the same amount of $ would have gone into the german cars without much thought, and I still am on target with my 5 year plan of paying off the mortgage, even after buying the Model S.�
Feb 5, 2012
Lyon No, I feel no guilt at all. Guilt implies that I should make a different decision and I think that buying a Model S will help Tesla succeed. If Tesla succeeds I think that it will create family-wage manufacturing jobs while building a company that makes green vehicles. Someone needs to buy these cars for Tesla to survive to be able to produce the less expensive vehicle, frankly, buying a Model S is a selfless act. ;-)�
Feb 6, 2012
VolkerP I'm in two minds. One side is not guilt but caution not to be called a show-off, or EVangelizing a solution not affordable to most people as the only 'moral' thing to do.
On the other side, I know I am an early adopter, paving the way for those to follow. Since EU pricing is not announced (and won't be for months to come) I am lucky to hide the price question in the haze. But most people know that US car price $ figures translate 1:1 to Euros. So it is about telling people that can afford a "new" premium car that now there is an EV solution for them.�
Feb 6, 2012
AnOutsider Still probably cheaper than running ad campaigns, but I'm sure by mid-2013 they'll start to advertise in some form or another.�
Feb 6, 2012
goyogi In the Bay Area, I think there will be more Model S than the Leaf! I see a Leaf almost every day. There are several people that want a Model S at my work too but I'm the only committed one so far to my knowledge.�
Feb 6, 2012
Robert.Boston The idea of reserving a car today for delivery in 14 months feels too much like vaporware for most people. Americans are not used to waiting to buy things, let alone waiting to buy a car. My Audi dealer was surprised that I was willing to wait for a particular A3 that was in transit from Germany (which precisely matched what I wanted to buy) rather than buy a close substitute off the lot. So, part of the unreality of our being reservation-holders is that we were willing to reserve a car, sight-unseen, with no test drive, and no independent reviews. At some level, that makes us all fanboys and fangirls.�
Feb 6, 2012
Mycroft Yep, $40k to reserve a car that we haven't even test driven yet. Or even taken for a ride. Or even knowing what comes standard on the frickin car!
So yes, we would definitely be classified as fanboys.�
Feb 6, 2012
de704 $5k = Fanboy
$40k = Super Fanboy
:smile:�
Feb 6, 2012
ElSupreme My dad bought his VW Passat V6 (with a stick) that way. His came from Hungary, not Mexico. I attempted to purchase my A3 that way, but got snubbed by the Audi sales people so I went to the VW dealership and got my GTI (poor man's A3) off the lot exactly the way I wanted it.
I have basically resigned myself to ordering cars, because dealers don't stock manual transmissions. Tesla is no different in the ordering respect, other than the lead time is a bit further out.�
Feb 6, 2012
Cobos That's not part of the fanboy thing here, hardly any cars are on lots. So you buy a car the way you want it and they deliver it to you after some time. My MiL bought a Skoda Fabia a few years back with a pretty normal selection of equipment and she waited 2 or 3 months for that car. That's pretty normal here.
I do have the "guilt" as well. For me it's mostly tied to this being way too expensive car for me, it will be about 20x-25x as expensive as the car I drive now. Compared to many of my collegues at the high school they have cars in that price range as well, usually slightly lower but probably only by 10-20% than the Model S. Most of those are quite a bit older than me though.
Cobos�
Feb 6, 2012
vfx
There must be a per car sales number in advertising. Is it less than $500 each?�
Feb 6, 2012
vfx Very hard to get the message. New car company new technology and here's the car in 30 seconds. That Clint spot cost 14M just for the airtime.�
Feb 6, 2012
Odenator
I remember my father paying $3000 for one of the first commercially available VCR's back in 1980. I paid almost $300 for a PC CD burner 13 years ago and stand-alones were $1000 just a couple of years before that.�
Feb 6, 2012
Mycroft It can be financially painful and draining to be on the bleeding edge, but you can't say it's not interesting. :smile:�
Feb 6, 2012
ElSupreme I remember paying $200ish for a PC DVD drive in high school (98ish). Blew every last dollar I had. The real bitch was that I couldn't use CD-R (and all the varients) media in the drive. It couldn't read them. So a few years later when I spent too much on a CD burner it was basically worthless. I couldn't put in a CD-R to copy to another CD-R.
Ah the pains of early adoption.�
Feb 6, 2012
PV4EV
Ahh, the price of being an early adopter !
Back in 1999 I *HAD* to have a plasma screen. Almost no one had ever seen one in real life, but they had started appearing on technology review programs. I'd just won a case for copyright infringement, so I felt justified in splashing out on a hi-tech 50 inch plasma (was this more of the 'guilt' issue manifesting itself ?!).
So, $20,000 later, I had an astoundingly good 50 inch Plasma with 1268*720 res, with a THX 7.1 sound system and a genuinely amazing speaker set up. But there was very little to demo it with. One of the very first DVDs produced with THX was a live recording of The Eagles playing Hotel California, and it was (and still is) epic for showing off a decent system.
Here in 2012, that same Pioneer panel is still working just fine with no apparent degradation, and its now 12 yrs old.
However, there is now any number of ultra thin LCD / LED HD replacements to be had for well under $1k. A 20:1 price drop � even more if you consider inflation.
Pics and specs dated June 1999 :-
News Release : PIONEER CORPORATION
Reference to original price $19,999 �
Pioneer PDP-502MX | trainingmag.com
... and does all this imply a Roadster in 2022 should be on sale for $10K ???!!!�
Feb 6, 2012
brianman I'll take 3.�
Feb 6, 2012
AnOutsider Reminiscent of the DVD-R/DVD+R thing a few years back�
Feb 6, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Thanks all for the wonderful insight and perspective thus far! I think I'm ready to deal with this better going forward.
And, some of the recent posts (a little OT) about how things can get obsolete after early-adopters pay a hefty price for them deserve a thread of their own?! Titled "The perils of being an early-adopter (parallels from other areas of tech)!" or some such?!�
Feb 6, 2012
Trnsl8r Here's me hoping that the Roadster owners are the early adopters in this case, and that Model S is the more seasoned product? (Roadster owners: I salute, envy, and thank you.)�
Feb 6, 2012
Mycroft Oh the Model S is definitely still in Earlyadopterville. We're not as deep in that town as the Roadster owners, but we're there. I'm just hoping they'll make most of the upgrades, (ACC, lane assist, etc.) retro-available to us early adopters.�
Feb 6, 2012
VolkerP Model S will not be outdated by these techno-gizmos in 2020. It will look old because of its limited range, proprietary plug and looooong charging times (even with supercharging!).
The Tesla plug really is like Atari bringing a follow-up for the 520ST in 1986 with a 4" floppy drive with frickin' 3MB capacity!�
Feb 6, 2012
Mycroft Don't hold back VP, tell us how you really feel. :smile:�
Feb 6, 2012
strider LOL! I still have that disc. I remember when I bought my DTS system back when it was bleeding edge and that is the DVD I used to demo it. Ahhh, thanks for the memories... I think I'll fire it up this evening�
Feb 6, 2012
Robert.Boston VP, I think you hit the nail on the head with the charging port. The battery pack is separate, and while it is an expensive component of the system, it's like the video card in a PC -- a big chunk of change relative to the total value of the system, but if you need to, you can replace it with something newer and more capable with little change required anywhere else. I fully expect to have a new battery in 2020 that runs on a completely different chemistry, and therefore is far cheaper and more capable than the LiIon I'm getting this year.
That charger port, however, we're all going to be living with that for a loooong time.�
Feb 7, 2012
KenEE I think the battery AND charging port will be easy to change if the S sells well. By that I mean its just the recepticle which would be easy for an enterprising 3rd party company to retrofit with the latest. (We know the pack itself is designed to be easy to change)
Basically, as long as the potential customer base is large enough there will be companies selling battery/charging upgrades.
Anyway, back to the OT: I don't feel guilty. I think the world is a better place with more well to do customers and employers. However, with the recent focus on economic equality, I fear backlash whenever I make a visible purchase of an expensive item or service.�
Feb 7, 2012
VolkerP I will be outdated by 2020 too, so no problem running an outdated car! :biggrin:�
Feb 7, 2012
dmckinstry Ditto!�
Feb 7, 2012
DaveVa It's unfortunate, but today, people feel like they should applogize for success. Once upon a time people were proud of success. This mindset has in many ways depressed the economy as a whole - people with money don't spend for fear of looking like they have too much. Spending by those with disposable income creates jobs - shaming people with money to live more "modestly" has basically increased the amount of cash held by the wealthy at the expense of those in the service and manufacturing industry.
I am proud to be buying a Tesla and often talk about the fact that the company is actually manufacturing in the U.S. - not just doing final assembly.
I am am not in the "ultra rich" category - I do well, but have to keep working for a living, the thrust today for all to have financial "parity" frustrates me...
Will step down from my soap box now ;-)�
Feb 7, 2012
ElSupreme Well that makes me feel a lot better about buying a Model S. And well better about doing well financially personally. But I will always have a problem with conspicuous consumption, especially with luxury goods. I really don't see the Model S as conspicuous consumption, or really a luxury good. It is the only electric car that meets my size, and range requirements.
I would buy a Porsche 911 with no qualms, because that is the car I have always wanted, and still do. I really should put the Model S in that category also.�
Feb 7, 2012
ckessel No more guilt than the general guilt I feel for the unfairness of society. A Model S is a pretty frivolous purchase relative to my need and there's a lot of good I could do with the money even within my own family (helping a relative go to college for instance). Down that road lies madness, but it's always worth keeping some perspective on how unimportant my Model S purchase is regardless of my emotional level of "want".�
Feb 7, 2012
PV4EV I did just that last night. Its as impressive now as it was back then.
I ended up enjoying the rest of the DVD, with massive Gin n Tonic, whilst contemplating the possible future guilt of owning a Roadster (that I dont want to sell) ... and having a Model X on the drive also. Hmmm ...�
Feb 7, 2012
dhrivnak Have you tried driving a Roadster? You will likely rethink the Porsche.
But to get back on topic I really stretched to purchase my used Roadster and even at a good used price it is 3xa the cost of my second most expensive car. I was worried about conspicuous consumption but the vast majority of people seem good with it and I have received many favorable comments . The favorable ones outnumber the snide ones a good 20 to 1.�
Feb 7, 2012
ElSupreme I would put the roadster in the same bucket as the 911. Sadly they have and still are way out of my price range. I couldn't stretch a base 911 (~$82k) unless I sold my house, sold my car, moved into a small apartment, got rid of the Fiancee, and didn't take a vacation. And the Porsche would get ~18k miles a year on it. I would save $400 fuel cost a month with the roadster over the 911 so its the same effective price. I don't think either of my banks would loan me any money for either car though.
The Model S on the other hand saves me $300 a month in fuel (over my GTI) and at 62k purchase price my bank can be convinced to loan me the money. I think over 5 years it will cost me about the same as an Impreza WRX STI. But it will be nicer, quieter, and bigger.
And as a hidden bonus, I can't be convinced to drive 850 miles to Houston ever again.
EDIT: And sadly no I have never driven a roadster.�
Feb 7, 2012
strider But the problem is that over the last few decades, most of this "success" has been because of an ability to manipulate the political system for economic gain. Real wages for workers have been flat for 30 years while productivity has steadily risen. This has meant more profits for the wealthy. Then they are able to manipulate the tax code for their own benefit (15% cap gains rate, carried interest, etc) and further consolidate their wealth. I'm a 2%'er so I'm not poor by any stretch but I pay ~43% on my income in taxes (state and fed income tax only - doesn't even count sales tax, vehicle taxes, etc).
We have this myth in this country that if you work hard you'll get ahead but those days are gone. The rich should feel ashamed because almost none of them made their money fairly. Trickle-down is a complete and utter farce. The other problem is that the rich don't spend their money here. Like Perkins having his yacht built in Turkey. Service jobs don't pay a living wage. Anyway, I'm on a rant now... I'll just go back and sit in my corner.�
Feb 7, 2012
howabout2 Not much to add, but I appreciated the ST reference. 'Course the discs were formatted with that one tiny difference that made them unreadable on PCs (but not vice-versa).�
Feb 7, 2012
AnOutsider Baffled... You mean everyone with money in this country did something shady to get there?�
Feb 7, 2012
brianman You lost me at "We have this myth..." with no backing evidence.
Snide counter: "We have this myth that we have this myth..."�
Feb 7, 2012
Soflauthor Since you've chosen to turn this into a political discussion, I think it's only fair that someone should respond. You're absolutely wrong when you state "We have this myth in this country that if you work hard you'll get ahead but those days are gone. " In fact, you're delusional. It appears that you've been listening to our President, who seems to have the same point of view.
I and many people I know (1) came from blue collar families; (2) had parents who never went beyond high school, (3) attended run-down public schools; (4) paid our own way through public universities by working menial jobs; (5) worked in corporate America, and (6) then had the courage to start our own businesses. We worked 80+ hours per week building a business and providing goods/services that people wanted. No government bailouts if we failed. I know that's true because I and millions of other Americans lived it.
The same opportunity I had exists today, and young people will seize it.
I will never feel ashamed for working very hard, for paying copious taxes over the years, for creating jobs and for rewarding myself now and then. People like you think the economy is a zero-sum game. It isn't, and presenting it as such is dishonest in the extreme. Sad.�
Feb 7, 2012
Doug_G I though this was supposed to be the Self Help Section. Politics is two shelves over.�
Feb 7, 2012
dsm363 I think this thread has run its course. It really is more of an off topic subject anyway.�
Feb 7, 2012
strider First of all, if you're posting on the Tesla board I'm not talking about you. You're not "rich" for the purposes of my post and unless you have lobbyists and contribute vast amounts of money to political campaigns you have nothing to be ashamed of.
As for your talk of "opportunity", I don't know how old you are but no matter - you're too old to see the change that has occurred. I don't doubt your American Dream story. The problem is that you are simply extrapolating your experience to younger generations when those things just don't hold true anymore. The amount of debt in the system (public and private) simply negates the possibility of us growing like we have for the last 70 years. It's just not going to happen.
Like you, I worked my way through public university but back then it cost ~$7,000/year. It now costs over $32,000/year to go to a public university (in California - yes it's cheaper in other parts of the country but regardless, costs have far outpaced inflation in the last few years) and the costs are rocketing up every year (tripled in the last 7 years). You think a kid can make that mowing lawns or working in a restaurant? Not a chance. Kids are coming out of school with huge debt loads. And then they try to move into the workforce and there are no jobs - unemployment among young people is off the charts. It's not that they're lazy, they can't get jobs because older workers can't afford to retire. I see it in my current job when I have a junior position open up I get resumes from senior people that just want a job even though it's for half what they used to be paid. Kids today have it a LOT tougher than you or I did.
Anyway, my point is that the super-rich (again, not anyone posting here) have gamed the system so that it is extremely hard for anyone to move up into that realm. The tax issue I raised is Exhibit A - the last people who need lower taxes are the super rich yet that is how the country is set up. Those of us below the super-rich pay twice as much in taxes as they do so that limits our ability to move up (For the record I'm a flat-tax advocate - everyone pays x% of every dollar you make, no deductions). If you can't see that the deck is stacked against you then all I can say is ignorance is bliss.�
Feb 7, 2012
Lyon I'm 30, most of my friends are hard working individuals who have no problem taking care of themselves and are not interested in a hand out. The other thing that they have in common is more debt than they will be able to pay off anytime soon. I'm talking about school loans here not big houses and nice cars. They've put off starting families so that they can get through some kind of post graduate or professional training.
Anyone who believes that the American Dream of 50 years ago is alive and well is delusional. College graduates enter the working world with poor prospects for employment and with tens of thousands of dollars worth of debt.
I don't mean to say that NO ONE can do it today, but it's the exception to the rule.�
Feb 8, 2012
VolkerP Asking the "guilt" question is a check if your personal actions can be aligned with general society and political views. I see a strong link here.�
Feb 8, 2012
AnOutsider I'm 27, went to community college for a semester then went right to work. A year later started freelancing then started my own biz. Opportunities are still out there, and the Internet generation has it even better in my opinion. There's access to information that previous generations had to pay handsomely for. It's even easier to be an entrepreneur in many fields.
I will agree with you only to the extent that I think Americans have gotten lazier (and seemingly dumber - but maybe that's just because "reality tv" has exposed more of it), and that may be what's stopping some from moving forward. I don't see a lot of entrepreneurial drive from those around my age. I see a lot of "damn, this sucks" when they have to go to work and lots of searching for the quick and easy way out.�
Feb 8, 2012
KenEE what solfauthor said.
Also, everyone should be thankful for the Super Rich. I'm an engineer, and without the SR to buy things I design and build, I'd not be able to do what I love the way I love to do it.�
Feb 8, 2012
qwk Exactly!
To add further to this, the days of getting a good paying job and saving up to get ahead and start a business are almost gone. In order to go into business for yourself and be succesfull, you need capital. There is no way around that. Good luck getting a loan for something like this when you are young nowadays.�
Feb 8, 2012
vfx Fields are different. A farmer, craftsman, reseller and service laborer are more the old days. Having access to computers and the technical aptitude the create the type of business you allude to (most people here) is a limited scope industry.�
Feb 8, 2012
Jaff Strider, herein lies a big part of the problem...Obama, the left wing press, and Democrats in general love to use the phrase "millionaire's & billionaires"...there is a VAST difference between the two!!!
Many here are millionaire's (not necessarily liquid)...got news for you folks that think someone with a million dollars of wealth in today's world is rich....................they ain't!!!
It is a disingenuous for the Obama administration, the media, and far left individuals to continue to employ this jargon...imo, it shows one with a socialist agenda...
�
Feb 8, 2012
strider I agree w/ you. Many people here are likely 2%'ers (that's where my family is currently) but the point of my posts are that yes, with hard work and (likely) a bit of luck you can become a 2%'er, but it is extremely difficult to move into the 1% (or .5% or wherever you want to draw the line) because the elites in society have stacked the deck against you.
Maybe my tin foil hat is on a bit too tight but I think way more than the "left wing press" is trying to lump millionaires and billionaires together. I think the super-rich encourage it as it spreads the rage at income inequality across a much wider group. And I think politicians do it as they don't want to upset their largest donors.�
Feb 8, 2012
KenEE Wow! How much further from the truth could one be! You can download development tools for any platform out there and write the next Angry Birds. For a less risky future, there are countless business problems waiting for solutions from anyone with average+ intelligence and a little resolve. And this is just in the space I'm familiar with.�
Feb 8, 2012
Doug_G I do think people here are a bit too pessimistic. Yes, the American economy is suffering from a protracted hangover after the excesses in past years, but that's no reason for gloom. Tesla is making a go of it. I'm sure there are lots of young entrepreneurs doing the same.�
Feb 8, 2012
qwk This proves my point even further.�
Feb 8, 2012
AnOutsider How so? Said dev tools are typically free.�
Feb 8, 2012
qwk Yeah, anyone with an average intelligence can design successful video games with nothing but free dev tools? Lol�
Feb 8, 2012
AnOutsider Where he quoted you, you said capital, hence me stating the tools were free. As for "average intelligence", well... Stranger things have happened.�
Feb 8, 2012
Robert.Boston The advent of websites like Kickstart and Itsy provided an entrepreneur unprecedented access to customers and "crowd-sourced" capital. Also, the VC and PE markets are better developed than ever in the history of the country. I would argue that it's never been easier to take an idea and run with it. (And, yes, I recently helped an innovator raise $12 million in venture funding, and we're currently working on raising the next $50 million. It can be done, if the idea is good enough.)�
Feb 8, 2012
qwk Seriously, we both know that while possible, this is certainly not Something anybody with average intelligence could even begin to do. I was referring more to a brick and mortar type business.
I don't disagree that people can still be successful, just that it's getting harder and harder to do. Then when you do get there the tax rates are insane. If you don't believe me, look at the tax code from 30 years ago and compare it to today.
I can afford a Tesla, and I'd like to consider myself successful, but I'm definately not ignorant of my surroundings.�
Feb 8, 2012
Robert.Boston Comparing individual marginal rates today to those in 1972 and 1982, as helpful computed by taxfoundation.org: We see that if you are married, filing jointly, the marginal tax rate at $200,000 (2012 dollars) was 45%; earnings above about $1,000,000 were taxed at a 70% marginal rate. In 1982, you hit the top marginal tax rate of 50% with an inflation-adjusted income of only $200,000. Today? 33% and 35%, respectively.
In 1972, the first $100 of dividends was exempt from tax, but all additional amounts were taxed at the marginal tax rate; in 1982 the exemption was $400, but above that was still ordinary income; today, dividends are taxed at 15%.
In 1972, corporate income (above $25,000) was taxed at a 48% rate; in 1982, corporate earnings above $100,000 were taxed at 45%; the top rate today is 35%.
So which part of the current tax code is it that makes success harder today than 30 or 40 years ago? Also, for the record, in 1973, Republican Richard Nixon was in the White House.�
Feb 8, 2012
qwk See the problem is with the adjusted for inflation Bs. Anybody can twist and turn numbers around to suit their needs. It happens all of the time.
I could have bought a gallon of gasoline 12 years ago for $1. Now it is $4. If you look at the inflation rate in those 12 years it isn't anywhere near 100%, let alone $400%. I know gasoline is an extreme example, but it proves my point.
Look, I know many people(trade workers)who in the 70's made the same or better hourly wage than they do today except that everything costs much more. My basic point is that while the cost of most goods is going up, wages are stagnant.�
Feb 8, 2012
Robert.Boston The top individual income tax rate now is half of what it was in 1972, the corporate income rate is 10 percentage points lower, and dividends and capital gains are treated much more favorably now then 30 years ago. Those are simple facts that don't rely on inflation adjustment. If we're talking about entrepreneurial spirit, it's these top rates that matter, not the tax rate on wage earners.�
Feb 8, 2012
KenEE Like I said their are many oportunities in software development. If I'm remembering right an a person can draw unemployment for 99 weeks. (?!?)
Imagine what a person could learn with the internet and 99 weeks. If you're young enough you probably have someone that would put you up for some time and you can get loans for school and even (gasp!) jobs to pay your way through school. It takes work and determination but noone has a leg up on anyone else anymore with the internet. You can know what I know and vice versa. At the same time society becomes more and more consumer like and thus creates a larger and larger demand for people who produce stuff. Just don't be lazy, appy yourself, and success is easier than ever. (still butt busting hard, but easier)�
Feb 8, 2012
shark2k Hey yeah, so um, how 'bout getting back on topic?
-Shark2k�
Feb 8, 2012
qwk While I respect and agree with most of the things you post on this board, you are seriously delusional when it comes to this topic. Do you seriously believe that anybody who makes well into six figures does it on an hourly wage? The chart is as useless as you can get, but it does prove my point. How can a guy like Mitt Romney make millions and pay 14% in taxes, yet a married couple making just over six figures pay 30+%. I guess that is fair somehow in your mind?�
Feb 8, 2012
KenEE The people in my office are excited about the Model S. (They love my wifes Volt too) I don't have any guilt at all. I feel a little bad that I can't (don't want to) wait until next year when Tesla may well be making deals. (after they run through the pent up demand of early adopters)�
Feb 8, 2012
KenEE qwk,
Did you give away $6M to taxes and charity? I sure didn't. Staples (just ONE one of Romney/Bane Capital's projects employs thousands more who pay milliions and millions in taxes etc.) We should have so many so evil as he.
And a quick lesson in investment - IT's RISKY! I recently lost almost half my investment in a certain battery company. Investment income is NOT guaranteed.
If I'm an average Joe wanting a decent job, the last thing I want is a squeeze on investment captial avaiable to someone who might hire me.�
Feb 8, 2012
qwk So all this talk about it being so easy to become an entrepreneur, and you depend on someone else for a paycheck? This conversation is getting ridiculous.
The mormon church is not a charity BTW.�
Feb 8, 2012
Robert.Boston I only asked what part of the tax code you thought was more constraining on an entrepreneur today than 30 years ago, which is what you stated earlier. The facts are that the marginal tax rate on earned personal income, unearned personal income, and corporate income are lower today the 30 years ago. Marginal rates are not the entire tax code, though, so I wanted to understand specifically what changes in the federal tax code in the past 30 years you believe hurt the entrepreneurial endeavors.
And there are those of us who earn solidly into six figures entirely on earned income. These are not "hourly wages" technically, but no different from a tax perspective.
Are we in heated agreement? What I thought your thesis was is that the tax code today is less favorable for entrepreneurs, and (by implication) relatively worse for wage earners. As I see it, the tax code today is far more favorable for high-income individuals than 30 years ago, and especially so for those whose income is not derived from salaries and wages, but rather from dividends, capital gains, and other sources. There's an interesting opinion piece in the NYT today that notes that Steve Jobs' widow will collect several billions in capital gains on her late husbands' AAPL shares, entirely free of tax. These zero- to low- tax rates are strictly the province of business owners and investors, and so people intent on earning serious cash need to step off the wage treadmill and set up their own businesses.
I'm not sure whether this is good policy, but it's certainly the logical conclusion from the current US tax code.�
Feb 8, 2012
qwk I think we agree on some things, but my main point is if you start from 0, it is very difficult to get to that elite status.�
Feb 8, 2012
brianman If this is your concern, then no goverment in the history of mankind can help you.�
Feb 8, 2012
AnOutsider Wouldn't be "elite" if it were easy to obtain, would it?�
Feb 8, 2012
Mycroft With enough government assistance, everyone will be able to get into the top 1%.�
Feb 8, 2012
SByer On topic:
No, I don't feel guilty. I've worked hard, saved early and often.
Off topic:
The Zuckerberg Tax - NYTimes.com
The tax system will always grow old-white-boy exemptions over time after a simplification. Thus, simplifications have to be periodic. With the current gross imbalances at the very high end, it's time for another. It's not about marginal tax rates, but effective tax rates. The tax code is full of maliciously complex tweaks intended to both hide the true depth of the handouts to the super rich, and to make sure that after a certain point, you can't get your taxes 'correct', so doing something that invites scrutiny from those in power interested in maintaining the status quo will certainly find something they can leverage.
It's not unfairness - life is unfair. It's the black hearted misanthropy of it - fighting for the carried interest, oil industry depreciation and liability special treatments, and all the other obviously unneeded and counter-productive cruft in the face of needed funding for education and worker re-training.
Here's a question I've pondered: if there wasn't such a tremendously favorable treatment of the oil industry for so long, shipping would cost more - would there be so much outsourcing? I don't think so, and that basic issue of a bunch of rich oil & coal executives grasping tightly to their corporate welfare at the expense of the population of the county they live in pisses me off.�
Feb 8, 2012
Lloyd At 14% Mitt is paying Capitol Gains tax. This has already been taxed at 35% corporate tax before the dividend was passed on to Mitt. The net rate was 49% to the government.
A recent interview with Bernake:
Ben Bernanke is a calm, quiet, and contemplative speaker. He has been painted into a corner by the policies of Congress. The Fed is forced to keep interest rates at or near zero to keep interest payments on our mountain of debt at the lowest levels possible.
In his testimony last week, he quietly and subtlely scolded Congress for its unwillingness to address the coming national crisis caused by our national debt. He suggested that if Congress does not address this debt-problem, we are looking at a collosal crisis in the near future. He said that he can only control "monetary" policy and the Fed is doing all it can. He said that it is up to Congress to take care of the debt problem with big changes in "fiscal" policy (i.e. taxes and spending).
Everyone on the committee agreed with what he said. Then one interchange was pivotal!
I will do this whole interchange in bold letters because I want you to realize I am yelling!!!!!
One Congressman said that he wanted Bernanke to assume hypothetically that the wishes of both parties were allowed to come true. He wanted Bernanke to assume that the increased taxation of the rich took place as proposed by President Obama. He also wanted Bernanke to assume that the spending cuts being proposed by Republicans also went into law. He then asked Bernanke whether these suggested changes would address the debt problem.
...... His answer was NO! He said that these changes would cause only "slight" or "insignificant" changes in the debt problem. He said that any impact on the coming debt crisis will have to be connected to changes in health care and entitlements!�
Feb 8, 2012
brianman Math error, line 1. Regardless of government assistance, only 1% will ever be in the top 1%.�
Feb 8, 2012
brianman I'll bite. It doesn't have to be.
Zero exemptions. Zero tolerance for legislation that changes that.
You want a house? Pay for the full house. Let the market balance it out so that houses are priced what they're worth. If nobody ends up owning a house because it makes more sense financially to just rent, then perhaps that makes more sense anyway. Think of it as having a 200 year mortgage.�
Feb 8, 2012
SByer How? I'd give up the mortgage interest deduction in a second if I thought that any semblance of fairness could stick. In this age of corporations-as-people and billionaire funded SuperPACs, combined with pocketable congresspeople, how?�
Feb 8, 2012
brianman Sometimes it takes something heavy like a constitutional amendment, and a moment in time where the right people are in place and adult enough to get it done.
I wasn't suggesting it was easy. I was suggesting it is possible.
The assertion was that there exists a slippery slope that just gets more slippery. If you remove the slope entirely then you have an opportunity. The problem is that nobody is suggesting removing *all* exemptions -- until that starts happening and the electorate backs it up, it won't get legs.�
Feb 9, 2012
tdelta1000 I understand your concerns about impressions but the guilt should be owning something so beautiful, awesome and a winner.�
Feb 9, 2012
Mycroft The only thing the mortgage interest deduction did was to increase housing prices. Good for those who owned houses before the legislation was enacted.
If they remove the deduction, housing prices would drop.�
Feb 9, 2012
ElSupreme And Tesla might miss out on a few S/X reservations in April. :biggrin:�
Feb 9, 2012
gg_got_a_tesla Till they bring the Alternative Minimum Tax code into modern times, the mortgage deduction is one of the few saving graces for those of us on the wage treadmill. They ought to fix AMT at the same time as eliminating the mortgage deduction.�
Feb 9, 2012
Mycroft Without the mortgage deduction, AMT probably doesn't come into play.�
Feb 9, 2012
strider Simple flat tax as I talked about earlier. If everyone (people, corps, etc) paid ~12% on every dollar they made then the budget would be balanced and it would be fair. No exemptions on anything for anyone. If you bumped the rate to ~15% (working from memory here) you could exempt the first $30k or so of income to help the poor and still come out ahead.
Now if you're asking how to get it done.... well if I knew that I wouldn't be sitting here complaining about it�
Feb 9, 2012
strider But this is the entire premise of my original argument. When you "set up your own business" the income you earn is NOT at "zero to low tax rates". It is ordinary income and taxed at the full rate. And the more money you make the higher your tax rate. Only once your company is public or has grown to a significant size do you get to start using all of those accounting tricks to reclassify your money from wages into investment income. THAT transition is extremely hard to reach because the tax structure is stacked against you - the closer you get the higher the taxes rise to keep slowing you down. Ask your local gas station owner or mechanic what tax rate they pay - it's a heck of a lot more than 15%.�
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