Dec 9, 2015
WillinVA FWIW - When I test drove it and the Tesla salesman demonstrated AP to me we were not on a highway. We were on a 2x2 road with a median - but definitely not a highway. IMO selling me the car by showing me how it works on roads that it will no longer work once I own it is a bait and switch.�
Dec 9, 2015
msnow So what are you going to do?�
Dec 9, 2015
WillinVA I'm going to still get the car and then piss and moan online, obviously.
I've been waiting this whole time, installed an outlet in my garage, and mentally prepared for getting a brand new car before Christmas. I will tell my dealership about this and see what they say, if they even know anything about it. But I will likely just be really disappointed in my Tesla buying experience and they will have an unhappy customer. Hopefully the overall driving experience makes up for it.�
Dec 9, 2015
msnow I think you'll love the car with or without Autosteer. You test drove it so you know what I mean.�
Dec 9, 2015
jeffro01 Bait and switch is a bit of a stretch but certainly you never should have had AP demoed on such a road in the first place. That part is indisputable and Tesla really should be making this clear to it's gallery employees...
Jeff�
Dec 9, 2015
liuping Plus AP is still in Beta. Features can be added, changed or remove during beta.�
Dec 9, 2015
boonedocks
+1 @cytranic I only get asked to touch the steering wheel at one particular spot on my 40+ mile expressway commute daily. It is the exact same place every day without fail and speed conditions don't matter. No time based nag on the original AP release for me either.�
Dec 9, 2015
green1 I note that all the people saying that Tesla should restrict autopilot are conveniently ignoring my question of how to determine where to do so... seems they don't like that inconvenient problem...�
Dec 9, 2015
Max* I don't think AP should be restricted.
But someone already answered your question, restrict it on roads where the speed limit is below let's say 45mph. Perfection is the enemy of good enough.�
Dec 9, 2015
tomas Hmm now let me see. Did you ever test drive a car and check out the 0-60 on a deserted side street? Or otherwise exceed limit to check out car? C'mon. Buyers are responsible for some common sense.�
Dec 9, 2015
brkaus During my test drive we tried the auto steer on a small non-highway street. Was clearly told it wasn't the intended use, but due to the location of the test drive there was no alternative.
And if they wanted to increase nagging instead of limiting it to 45mph I'd be better with it (but still not happy). Other implementations of lame keeping that have regular nagging allow use on any marked street.�
Dec 9, 2015
green1 Actually, no, they didn't answer how Tesla could know if it's a divided highway because they completely ignored a whole bunch of evidence that this wouldn't work.
I have a 100km/hr sign near my house on a 4 lane divided highway that the car ALWAYS reads as 10km/hr. I have many times seen the car randomly decide that a 6 lane divided highway has a speed limit of 60km/hr despite all the signs saying either 100km/hr or 110km/hr. There's a 4 lane divided highway near me with a limit of 70km/hr (43mph) meanwhile the highways throughout BC are often 100km/hr even though they are single lane undivided.
So this new feature would provide zero advantage to me, while removing functionality in many known cases where the AP would otherwise be designed to be used.
No thanks.�
Dec 9, 2015
Electricfan I don't think my car has a time-based nag. It nags me once or twice in my 30 min stretch of using it on the way to/from work on Beltway 8. Most of the time it happens during a curve. I think that's when it senses my hands aren't on the wheel. But I will say it has nagged on straight stretches occasionally, so there could be a timer involved. Hard to be sure exactly how they decide when to nag.
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Can you describe the road you intend to use it on? It really only works well on the highway. If your sales person said you could use it on curvy two-lane roads with poor lane markings you are not going to be happy with it.�
Dec 9, 2015
wk057 I'll just point out that if there are timed nags in v7.0 2.7.77 then I haven't found it. I was about drive about 150 miles in clear conditions with zero nags.�
Dec 9, 2015
Cyberax How about a numbered US highway which is a clearly marked two-lane road with light traffic and almost no turns?�
Dec 9, 2015
aija SigX 649 +1 Autoreversing into the garage would be epic. This is a must if my wife is to ever park in the garage again :scared: She's 86ed at the moment.
On a more serious note.. the parking feature should have a "Learn" mechanism, similar to the way robotic arms are taught to paint for example. Manually pull into the garage, get it exactly as you like it on all sides, and press learn! The SW would gather/ingest all hard/fixed surfaces like walls, floor, and ceiling. Next time around, the car would then try to park itself in the same exact (stored) position, warning, aborting or correcting if necessary for newly infringing obstacles.�
Dec 9, 2015
andrewket This is my guess how it work as well, but you will press learn before you enter the garage, and learning will end when you put the car into park.
I have very little clearance on the sides between the mirrors and the frame of the door. If it doesn't learn, it will undoubtably stop thinking it is getting too close. Alternatively, it could collapse the side mirrors before entering, which I typically don't do today.�
Dec 9, 2015
brianman It mitigates the issue, but it doesn't solve it. There's less time when the other handles present, but they still do present when you activate the one on the driver door.
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Hilarious answer.
�
Dec 9, 2015
jgs Making this more complicated will be the fact that if your garage is anything like mine, at any given moment it may be storing things that look just like hard/fixed surfaces to an ultrasonic sensor, but are not actually fixed. A few spare sheets of wallboard, for instance. Or a large package. Or some planks. Here today, gone tomorrow, replaced by something else the next day. The possibilities are endless, and my garage isn't a messy or even cluttered one.
Hardly an insurmountable problem, but probably makes it considerably more interesting to get the feature good enough for prime time.�
Dec 9, 2015
AWDtsla Given the size of the Model S, I think few people will have garages that the car can "learn", if not empty then certainly after it's full of all the junk people put in garages. The ultrasonics currently cut out at 12" which I find rather useless for parking almost anywhere. I can get closer than that by eye, it's the last few inches that counts.�
Dec 9, 2015
jgs Oh, I'm sure it could learn mine, if it was clever enough. If I wanted to I could park by ultrasonics alone, even when the garage is at its messiest.�
Dec 9, 2015
Max* The car should be able to figure out how far you traveled once the car tells you to "STOP" at the 12" mark. It's not rocket surgery.�
Dec 9, 2015
Andyw2100 Or brain science?�
Dec 9, 2015
AWDtsla Then you'd think it would report the same on the display...
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The only thing harder than rocket surgery is laser shark rocket surgery.�
Dec 9, 2015
brkaus The 12" minimum is likely a guardband to allow extra safety. I think it's their choice. May also have to do with the fact that the entire side of the car isn't covered with sensors.�
Dec 9, 2015
jbcarioca Elon even commented IIRC that AP worked best in heavy traffic. I'd be devastated if I lost that capability. I use it every day.�
Dec 9, 2015
davidc18 +1 - same here�
Dec 9, 2015
Lex I am starting to get the feeling what Tesla has been mostly beta testing since the AP release (and possibly somewhat before) is consumer response...
In addition to the actual beta(s), there seem to be a high number of releases in the wild at the moment, only going to a subset of cars.�
Dec 9, 2015
dirkhh Yes, this has been one of the interesting uses of the firmware tracker. It visualizes just how many builds are out there at the same time. In the last four weeks we have seen installs of 7 different builds on cars out there. As a software developer that makes me a little nervous...�
Dec 9, 2015
Max* I prefer rocket surgery.
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On 6.2 you'd think that blind spot detection didn't work either...
And I'm 99% sure it tracks it. I've had cases where it would track down to 12" disappear, I'd keep driving and all of a sudden I get a stop message (think parking block)�
Dec 10, 2015
kirkbauer That's what she said.�
Dec 11, 2015
GlmnAlyAirCar That homeless person could be the developer who created the dashboard clock.�
Dec 11, 2015
brianman "Relevance?"�
Dec 11, 2015
GlmnAlyAirCar Perhaps he's out of a job now????�
Dec 11, 2015
brianman Still don't want him/her in my car.�
Dec 11, 2015
Gizmotoy Ah, the Netflix approach to software development. I think Elon and Reed are buddies, so it's not terribly surprising.�
Dec 13, 2015
disillusioned Why should this make you nervous? It feels like it's either feature branch testing or A/B testing, and either option isn't bad practice. More focus from their beta testers if it's feature branches, and customer satisfaction feedback if it's A/B...�
Dec 13, 2015
dirkhh If Tesla had a reasonably big firmware team this would be one thing. But I have it on good authority (from an engineer working at Tesla who really would hate me to give more specifics on how they know) that the firmware team is surprisingly small. From my email exchange with that person I understand that the many different versions are a result of the quite un-orthodox firmware release process that Tesla uses.
Anyway, my point is that it appears that the different releases are branches that are being released (after going through QA) without being merged into a linear stream. So if we start at 2.7.56 and go to 2.7.77 and 2.7.85, then .77 could contain fixes that aren't in .85 - but then .106 may have the combination of the changes that were in both earlier releases.
Again, I don't want to get my source in trouble, so I won't get into more detail, but I was quite perplexed by what I was told.
I consider my source reliable - but who knows, this might be an elaborate practical joke (as the emails of course aren't coming from a teslamotors.com account).�
Dec 13, 2015
AWDtsla Given the fragmentation, strange release schedules, large delays from physical product to released software, and generally outdated things like the browser, you would have to assume something strange is going on. Sounds like they're struggling to go from startup mode to actually having a process that scales to 100k+ vehicles and probably even more permutations of options, given part revving.�
Dec 13, 2015
msnow Pure speculation on my part but I see inherent problems when the head of technical architecture and the CEO are the same person.�
Dec 13, 2015
eclipxe From my sources, I second this.�
Dec 13, 2015
apacheguy Dirk - Perhaps those are just the folks working on UI elements? I'd imagine there are others working on BMS, drivetrain firmware, ECUs, etc.�
Dec 13, 2015
disillusioned This still doesn't sound too unorthodox. You ship the components that are closest to ready and sometimes feature branches aren't ready to be merged back to master and miss the boat. Unless I'm misreading your interpretation of things.
Admittedly, it's a bit... surprising to see the feature branches release to different groups of the actual public; if your point is that there is typically just one production branch that non-beta end users are exposed to, and that Tesla breaks that orthodoxy, well, point taken. But that's also how Facebook and Google and a bunch of others do things, so it's a bit of blending new world with old, 5,000 lbs of steel world. Here's hoping they unit test!�
Dec 13, 2015
dirkhh Well, there a many different commonly used release methodologies. And indeed companies do A/B testing where different features are released to different users and the results are then evaluated.
What to me is most startling is that AFAIK they have "wide" releases that are supposed to go to the installed base (.56 and likely .77 were that), but then they do releases that go out to smaller and what appear to be fairly random groups, but not as A/B test but as "hey, this feature (or this bug fix) cleared testing, let's get it out there" and so some people get one but not the other, or the other, but not the one, and then later the next "wide" release will include BOTH.
That is not something I have seen documented anywhere or encountered elsewhere.�
Dec 14, 2015
chickensevil So I'm confused, why can't they use the Nav to tell what road they are on? The only time I have seen any issues with it is distinguishing between the HOV center lane and the main highway. Otherwise the roads have always matched up just fine for me even with the various construction and such. Because the nav that determines that is based on Google which is kept pretty current.
So interstate and highway... this should be definition at a minimum include the Interstate system (I-5 / I-95 / I-70 / etc), the US Highway system (US 50 / US 66 / US 1), and possible also state highways since most of those also post at 45MPH and above. What it would stop is city streets and other non-highway streets, and from the way it is worded all it is limiting is that you can't go above 45MPH on those non-highway streets. This really doesn't seem like much of a limitation to me. Or am I missing something? Even if I can't use it up and down the busy parts of route 1 (here in VA), that is fine, because the roads kinda shift and change so much that you shouldn't be really using it there in the first place. And TACC would still be available, and that is still quite useful on those roads. What exactly is the issue again?�
Dec 14, 2015
donv The confusion comes down to the phrase "divided highway"-- at least to me. Around here, there are lots of "highways" (including some US highways and some state highways) which don't have a divider-- and may, in some places, be only 2 lanes. This is the issue.
Hopefully, it turns out to be a non-issue...
I think Tesla is, well, trolling us, to some extent. They put these things out there and see what the reaction is, and then they pull them back.
�
Dec 14, 2015
Andyw2100 I really don't think Tesla included the notes about the restrictions just to see what our reaction would be. I think they could have predicted our reaction pretty well. I'm not sure what's going on, but I just don't think that's it.�
Dec 14, 2015
dirkhh I, too, find that questionable.
But I think this would be the first time that they explicitly add something like this to the release notes which then isn't there.
I'm quite puzzled, actually. Could it be that they need a map data update for this to work? Or there is some other secondary "thing" that needs to fall into place?
Yeah, grasping at straws...�
Dec 14, 2015
green1 Because the nav data is HORRIBLE, and frequently I drive on roads that it doesn't know exists, or thinks are still small windy roads when they've since been converted to 4 lane divided freeways. I can't imagine allowing that disaster of a system decide when I get to use AP or not.
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My feeling is that it is actually there, but that so few people have really tested it, and not very thoroughly, that we just haven't seen the outcry yet. I'm reserving judgement.
That said, some of the reports I've see that say it's not restricting, were flat out wrong in their testing. One said that they could set AP on a residential road so there must not be a restriction, when the release notes specifically state that the restriction only activates if you set the AP at above 45mph on a residential road. So they didn't even test the right thing there.
I'd be glad to be proven wrong, and if enough testing proves that the restriction does not in fact exist, I'll update, but until then I've reached my highest firmware version.�
Dec 16, 2015
Cebe Doesn't the car know it's on a divided highway because of the GPS?�
Dec 16, 2015
AnOutsider The map database isn't exactly known for being current though.�
Dec 16, 2015
Cyclone Maybe it will only "vote" for it being restricted based on the detailed AP-crowd sourced maps?�
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