Jan 7, 2016
Canuck Yes, I see this too and said this back in Sept:
Here's my analogy: When I first joined, it was a small town that had struck gold. Originally, the gold claim was small (Roadsters) and practically everyone was helpful and considerate. The old gold claim was recently exhausted but I came not for the old claim, but a new one just discovered over a hill close by (Model S). I was surrounded at that time by many old timers, and really enjoyed it here and learned a lot from them about panning for gold. It was always hoped the new gold claim would be big, but it turned out to be huge. As such, the small friendly town grew rapidly and with that rapid growth came growing pains. Crimes that were once rare or non-existent became commonplace and now there were fights at the local beer parlor almost nightly. The jail that in the past was only used infrequently (snippiness thread) had to be expanded to make room for more offenders. And those who tried to protect the old town's heritage, and in particular it cherished town square icon, were called "fanboys".
That's about where we are now so I don't know how the story ends but I guess we're going to find out.
How about timeouts for constantly disruptive folks? - Page 2�
Jan 7, 2016
bonnie I always liked that analogy, canuck.�
Jan 7, 2016
thecloud And now those cranky old timers are sitting on the porch, lamenting how things aren't like they used to be when the town was small and everyone knew everyone else and a representative of the benevolent mining company would come to your home to personally shoe your horses. The mine grew rapidly, and the town grew large along with it, and there was Progress! And Progress was good for humanity, even if it meant Change, and Unwashed Masses, and no more farrier service. Those who dared point out the mining company's growing pains were called "complainers."
I'll stop now. :smile:�
Jan 7, 2016
JenniferQ Build that wall! Now!�
Jan 7, 2016
jimmy82abn Jenn, I love that Tahoe Personal plate.�
Jan 7, 2016
EarlyAdopter Let me just say that I, for one, welcome any and all. You are all "Early Adopters" in my book, and I thank each and every one of you.
<group hug>�
Jan 7, 2016
Andyw2100 I'd say I fall partially into both categories, and that some of the characteristics of each apply to me, and some most definitely do not.
I was an early adopter of the P85D, ordering it almost immediately after the D announcement, and taking delivery in December, 2014, but I absolutely would not consider myself an early adopter.
I would not say that I am "grateful" towards Tesla for allowing me to purchase my car. I am impressed by what Tesla has accomplished, but I purchased the car with my money, and paid quite a bit for it. Tesla did not do me a favor by selling me the car. In fact my attitude is that for what I spent on the car, Tesla should be providing world-class customer service, and to date that most definitely has not happened. (I'll expand on that in a minute.) Though I'm not an early adopter, I do think that I have become extremely supportive of other users here. I came knowing nothing, wanting to learn everything I could about my car. Over time, and through the ridiculous amount of time I've spent here, I've come to learn a lot, and feel that now I need to "give back", to repay forward what was done for me when I was a newbie. I try hard to do that.
I agree that I and perhaps other newcomers like me may complain more than some of the true early adopters. In my case my feelings evolved. I heard nothing but stellar reports of Tesla service, and how easy everything would be, and how Tesla always made everything right. My first experience, like many P85D owners, was being told the six-figure car I ordered would be delivered with inferior seats, and that the better seats--the ones I had paid for--would be installed at a later date. I wasn't given a choice about this, though I guess I could have refused delivery. No timeline was given, but I think most of us expected the delay would be a few weeks to a couple of months, at the most. I, like many others, waited five months for the seats I had paid for. And when they were delivered, Tesla offered not a penny as compensation. World-class customer service? The bloom was off the rose.
I won't list all the other areas Tesla has fallen short in my eyes. I've complained about all of them in various threads. My point is that I came to Tesla as high on Tesla as a person could be. It was first-hand experiences that changed my attitude. Was I expecting too much? I don't think so. I was expecting a level of customer service commensurate with the price I had paid for my car. My expectations would have been lower if I had purchased a $30,000 Ford.
Tesla is playing in the big leagues. There is no doubt in my mind that Tesla can be hugely successful. The products are so good, and so much better than anything else out there, they've given themselves a huge head start. I think if Tesla can just learn to stop alienating customers, and figure out how to turn customers like me who have become somewhat jaded back into the Tesla evangelists we once were, there's no limit to what they can achieve.�
Jan 8, 2016
Mike K I guess I'm trying to put myself in your shoes but I'm not seeing what their is to be really upset about. Disappointed? Perhaps, but upset? Ehhh... Whatever the delay was with the seats what would the alternative have been? Waiting 5 months longer before getting your car? How were your truly inconvenienced? Having a car delivered with different seats, using them for 5 months and then getting brand new ones? I've spent time with both seats. The Next Gens might look nicer but other than better side bolsters they're hardly anything more than an aesthetic upgrade and their omission certainly doesn't ruin the car. I think there's a whole lot of very well articulated complaining about nothing in your post and again, I can certainly understand the disappointment but the bloom was off the rose? This really set you that far back? Maybe you have other stories to tell but this one, the one you chose as your example for disappointment, doesn't seem really bad at all. I've experienced worse with my BMWs.
Let me offer a slightly different perspective. I just bought a low VIN 2013 S85. I bought it from an early adopter who said he never had any issues with it. Well, as it turns out, the drive unit makes a noise at part throttle that my higher VIN S85 didn't. A tech went on a drive with me, told me it was perfectly normal and harmless and then offered to swap out the drive unit nonetheless. That's akin to me taking my M5 to BMW complaining of an injector ticking and them telling me it's totally fine but oh yeah, if you want us to replace the engine for you we'll totally do that.
In my experience Tesla has gone above and beyond to address problems that pop up. And right they should. Their future is contingent on our happiness. Anyone that owned an original iPhone can probably attest to how lax Apple used to be with their warranties. You could go in there on day 364 and tell them the phone was verbally abusing your wife and they'd scold it front of you and then proceed to replace it with a brand new one. And they needed to do this because it was new technology that people were on the fence about. So it was absolutely mission critical that people that had the iPhone love the iPhone. Now you can walk into an Apple store with your phone spitting flames out the lightning port and they'll tell you to make a genius bar appointment to get it looked at next week only to then offer to fix it for your first born and $600.
The point is, Tesla is in that early stage where they're fixing problems no matter how trivial. Let's not confuse the growing pains of a company making their first car with straight up incompetence or intentional unwillingness to help the customer. This is a company that made their first car arguably the safest car on the market and one of the best overall cars in the world. When you look at companies like Fisker and just how wrong things can go so easily, it is absolutely mind blowing that Tesla didn't only just put out an acceptable car as their first offering but a critically acclaimed vehicle.
Keeping all this in mind? I guess I don't get why you'd get too bent out of shape over seats that arrived 5 months late, especially when you had full use of your car.�
Jan 8, 2016
kort677 you are correct they are all just cars, the only difference between a tesla and those gas cars is the source of energy for propulsion. if some of you want to wave the enviro banner great, many of us aren't as zealous about the "cause" and some people just bought a tesla in order to have the "coolest" gadget on the road.
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I think elitist covers it�
Jan 8, 2016
kevincwelch That's disappointing, although not surprising, to hear about the "D" event behavior.
My wife considers me to be an early adopter, and I do consider myself to be that when it comes to the Model S, but I'm not one to consider myself special because of that. (Although I do grin when I see an IL electric plate that is far higher than mine!) I think there is an important difference between those two types of people. And, yes, being "early" is relative.
I used to wave to Tesla owners on the street or strike up conversations at the SC. I don't anymore because I'm not sensing the community as much. It's different on TMC, but out in the wild - even in Chicago where Teslas aren't a dime a dozen (like SoCal) - either people think it's just another performance sedan or don't care to connect.�
Jan 8, 2016
Max* What was that? I was too busy cutting you off mid-sentence
�
Jan 8, 2016
wdolson I have noticed some people (not thinking of anyone in particular at the moment I'm terrible with names) who seem to have sort of an entitlement attitude. I have seen some people rant about what I consider rather minor flaws or compare the Model S creature comports unfavorably with other $100K cars. I think a fair number of these people are fairly recent buyers and are used to very expensive cars.
I'm not a Tesla owner yet, but I plan to be one of those new owners one of these days. But I'm not into feelings of entitlement. I probably will be a bit more concerned about keeping it looking nice because it's going to cost 5X what my last new car cost me. But if some misfortune like a door ding or something happens, I'll be miffed initially, but it's the hazards of owning a car, regardless of the price.
As for tech adoption, that's a different thing. I'm an engineer and programmer by profession, but I'm not an uber techno geek. I have very few of the newest gadgets and even though I have 6 operational computers in the house, none have an OS newer than Windows 7 and I only went to that reluctantly.
I prefer to be a bit behind the cutting edge of new technologies because I don't like being the final beta tester for new products. I have to deal with alpha and beta stuff with work all the time, I don't want to do it in my spare time too. I like to have a life outside of work.
Back to the point... Whenever you're talking about any population of people, almost any statement about that group that has "all" or implies "all" is almost certainly wrong. People vary too much. Different populations have different characteristics, if you're talking about a certain ethnic group you can't say all of them like spicy food, but you might find more people in that group like spicy food than some other ethnic group you compare them to.
I have noticed the early Tesla owners seem to be more Zen about problems with their car and tend to express happiness that they have had a wonderful car for a few years now and newer owners tend more towards entitlement thinking. However there are always exceptions in both camps and people in both camps that don't fit either attitude too. Just my anecdotal observation of the trends in the population.�
Jan 8, 2016
Spidy For me those are just reasonable expectations and not some kind of entitlement. When I'm paying premium price for a good or service then I also expect quality in return. Doesn't matter if that's a nice hotel compared to a model, riding first class vs. 2nd class or just buying groceries e.g. some fresh meat from the butcher and not the freezer at a supermarket.
If I'm at a nice restaurant where I pay 5x as more as your average restaurants around the corner, then I expect top quality food and perfect service. Sure every waiter makes mistakes and cooks are humans, too, but if something goes wrong then I also expect them to take car of it and still make it a pleasant experience for more.�
Jan 8, 2016
msnow I think that's the "Protect our Coast and Ocean" plate. The "Tahoe" plate has the lake with mountains in the background.
@JenniferQ, love the wall reference. It seems to be the solution to everything these days. [emoji3]�
Jan 8, 2016
jimmy82abn Oh yeah that's right, it is. Nice call!
Still love the plate. Just ordered mine = Auto Plt�
Jan 8, 2016
Andyw2100 In and of itself the seat issue was not that big of a deal, and if it were the only issue I've experienced I expect I'd still be a dyed-in-the-wool Tesla evangelist. But just to elaborate a bit on why the seat issue bothered me, I felt like Tesla was displaying an attitude of not caring about me as a brand new customer. They had fallen short. Agreed--not all that short--but short. My car was not delivered as ordered. They should have done something - ANYTHING - some small gesture - to acknowledge that the mistake was theirs, that they were sorry, and that they valued my business. At the time there were lots of small gestures Tesla could make being discussed in various threads. Ideas ranged from some small credit in the Tesla store to short extensions of the warranty, etc. No one was asking for or expecting anything significant, because we all, for the most part, agreed, as you point out, that the inconvenience was not great. We were just looking for a gesture that was never made.
I don't want to turn this thread into a debate on all the negative issues of the past several months. But you talk about Tesla going "above and beyond" while that has not been my experience. So I will just list briefly some of the other issues. Again, I do not want to get into a major discussion of any of them, and one of them I'm not going to type another word about in this thread after this, as there are PLENTY of other threads discussing the topic. (I'll place an asterisk by that one, in case anyone has any difficulty figuring out which one I'm talking about.
--Efficiency issues - My car is not as efficient as it was advertised as being. Also, when originally delivered, it had no Torque Sleep functionality at all, so was actually significantly less efficient than it is now, yet Tesla did not explain this at all until some time later, at which point they acknowledged that Torque Sleep would be available soon. It made me wonder what kind of company delivers less than their customers have paid for but says nothing, in the hopes the customers won't notice. The answer was not the kind of company I had heard and believed Tesla was.
--Center console issue--I had planned to purchase the obeche matte center console from the time I ordered my car. For months it was shown as "coming soon" in the Tesla Store, and I was on the waiting list. The date I'd be able to get it kept getting pushed back. Then eventually Tesla decided they would not produce it at all, leaving me without an option for a Tesla Center Console that actually matched my trim.
--Ranger / Valet issue--Before purchasing my car I was told I'd have ranger service come to me at no charge (or at most a $100 charge at times) and that if the ranger service could not provide the needed service my car would be valeted to a service center and a loaner car provided and that there would be no charge for this. Living more than 200 miles from the nearest service center this information was material in my decision to purchase a car that could not be serviced anywhere else. Now Tesla is saying that valet service will cost $3.00 per one-way mile, which would cost me more than $600 any time my car needs service. The fee has been waived once, but it's not clear what the future holds. My position is that Tesla can change their policy going forward, for new customers, if they must, but that promises made to existing customers, that the existing customers made purchase decisions based on, should be honored.
--691 HP issue *
--Delayed Auto-Pilot issue--The auto-steer beta works very well. But it was demo'd more than a year before it was released, and talked about at the D presentation in the present tense. Tesla botched the expectations-setting big-time.
There are other issues as well, but I think the above are enough to demonstrate why my feelings towards Tesla have changed. Believe it or not, they could still change back, but for that to happen will take some work and some changes on Tesla's part.�
Jan 8, 2016
Twiglett The comment from Andyw2100 highlights the differences between old and new car makers as well as tech and non-tech companies.
Maybe that is the source of different attitudes of customers?
If GM/Nissan etc made the Model S it probably would not have been released yet or if it had been released, the first 2014 Model S would be RWD with no autopilot but they may have revealed a concept that could have these features.
We wouldn't know about the next model, but the 2016 Model S would be rumored.
The firmware updates would be chargeable upgrades and all work would be done by local dealers.
We certainly wouldn't see hardware released to production that didn't have working software (like autopilot).
Tesla behave much more like a tech company, they announce way too early & always deliver late, find public beta releases acceptable, usually underestimate the customer impact.
We see more of "thats not working, change it on the fly", combined with changes that need to be re-changed on the fly based on feedback.
They have a platform where they have flexibility to treat hardware and software independently that can be OTA updated, and they leverage as part of the deployment model.
They are two radically different models with radically different customer expectation profiles. Its no wonder we are seeing different reactions�
Jan 8, 2016
Max* I don't get the highlighted mentality, you're conflating two separate issues.
Tesla (a tech company) went into the car maker business, selling cars, promising to remove all the negativity of buying a car, as such should not add more problems.
Tesla broke the car manufacturer mold, but that doesn't mean they need to destroy the tried and true approaches of delivering a working product.
Let's say, me as an engineer, decided I want to quit my job and become a professional photographer. I start charging my clients for photo shoots. Should I be given a break because I'm an engineer and not a photographer? But I'm charging people for my photography work... see the issue?�
Jan 8, 2016
Andyw2100 I agree with this.
I would add that there are easy and essentially free things Tesla could do to allow themselves the flexibility of behaving like a tech company, without disappointing customers that are expecting a more traditional approach. And that is --COMMUNICATE--!
A perfect example is what Tesla did (or more accurately didn't do) when they delivered the first P85Ds.
Tesla had missed on Torque Sleep. It wasn't ready yet, so they delivered the cars without it. Not a big deal, in the big picture. But why say nothing about it, hope your customers don't notice, and leave them all wondering why their cars are much less efficient than they were supposed to be? Why not simply communicate, at delivery time, "We're still perfecting Torque Sleep, and it will be available in about two months, via our industry-leading over-the-air firmware update system."
Good communication goes a long way towards making things better. Poor communication just makes things worse.�
Jan 8, 2016
AmpedRealtor Tesla owners in California are such a**holes! lol... just kidding... I live in Arizona and we all wave at each other, flash our lights, etc. I noticed that in California, people don't do that. And you're right, I saw a lot of people just sitting in their cars not wanting to interact with anyone. I walked up to a few people as they plugged in to try and strike up a conversation, but they looked at me like I came from Mars or something. Very stand-offish and not what I'm accustomed to here in Arizona, where we have meet-ups and treat each other as if we are members of the same family.
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... and no communication is better than poor communication, in my opinion. Perhaps that's why Tesla has been so quiet the last few months. The less Elon opens his mouth sometimes, the better. I notice that he has been doing that a lot less in the last 3-4 months. I actually notice when Musk has not said something for a while because he used to be so free-flowing before.
I just checked Tesla's Corporate Director page. Does anyone else find it curious that there are only two people on that page, JB and Elon, when previously there used to be 4-5 people mentioned on that page in years prior?
Management | Tesla Motors�
Jan 8, 2016
Max* More than that, last year there was 9
Management | Tesla Motors�
Jan 8, 2016
AmpedRealtor Makes me wonder what's happening upstairs at Corporate. Or maybe it's just a web site problem?�
Jan 8, 2016
pedriscoll This is one of the best threads I have seen here in a long time. I think people are making excellent points all around. Tesla is still a young company and Tesla vehicles are extremely innovative. No one else would even consider free OTA software upgrades. They have been addressing quality issues in a reasonable manner. However, they do not communicate well with customers. They set expectations high and then cannot deliver. For a software company, that would be expected. That is not expected or acceptable for a car company that wants to enter the mass market.
I absolutely love this car and bore my friends all the time with my raves. My wife tells me I should install a bathroom and just live in the car. However I want Tesla to succeed so I never have to by another brand again (I had driven Toyota's since 1978). Unless they address the communication issues and ongoing quality control issues, I fear they may not succeed or survive.�
Jan 8, 2016
benf My $100k Model S with 3,000 miles on it has more rattles, ticks, buzzes, etc. than my $17k Scion xB dog hauler with 50,000 miles on it. I knew up front that even for $100k, the Model S was not going to compare to my $75k BMW in terms of interior noise, material quality, build quality, etc. I was OK with that, and was willing to look the other way due to all of the other awesome aspects of the Model S. What I didn't expect was for it to have more quality control issues than an econobox.
Now, Tesla will fix all of my issues, I have no doubt. But expressing concern about them and demanding that they be fixed has nothing to do with entitlement. If someone GAVE me a Model S, complaining about these things would be a different story. But I spent $100k and expected a certain level of quality for that price. If "entitled" people like me don't start saying something about this stuff in larger and larger numbers, it's going to continue like it has for the past 3 years.�
Jan 8, 2016
msnow Wow, I never even looked at this before and as someone from the corporate world it's alarming that the top executives are all tech. There should be a CFO, General Counsel, and HR in addition to technology (and other roles) at that level. I also clicked on the BoD link and I don't see a lot of variety or independence there either. As a shareholder I would expect that group is there to a) protect my interests and b) guide Tesla's strategy not friends and family of the Chairman, founder and CEO!
@Andyw2100, thanks for explaining your views, totally understandable. The thing that would bother me the most would be if they don't grandfather you in Ranger Service. 200+ miles is NOT doable for service. It should be more like 50 miles or less.�
Jan 8, 2016
ohmman I agree completely that our feedback should help them improve. I accept a lot of it because I mentally allocate a huge chunk of the vehicle cost toward the drivetrain and ability to take electric road trips. I figure if I put 90% into that category, I'm doing pretty well. But I realize that some people don't value the drivetrain the way I do, so it's important that they continue to improve in all areas.�
Jan 8, 2016
Twiglett I'm not conflating two separate issues at all.
They are directly connected because both they are two totally different ways of selling cars.
If you expect Tesla to deliver a car like GM then you will be disappointed (or pleased)
If you expect GM to deliver a car like Tesla then you will definitely be disappointed
Tesla broke the car mold by making the car a technology device and treating it as such.
A tech company version of "working product" is the problem.
I think of the current Model S as Model S.4.22.19 - its four service packs in with at least 22 major patches for this service pack and 19 hot fixes
OK, I wildly guessing on the actual numbers, but you get the idea.
Model S is a tech product, not a car.�
Jan 8, 2016
jimmy82abn I agree 100%, Tesla is burning money and they need to true up quality issues. If you ever watch Shark Tank on CNBC the Sharks loose interest if you present them a company that after its 3rd year are still having serious quality issues. Everyone knows to carve anything out of thin air will take cash and for about 2-3 years that's ok to be in the Red. But now its 5 years and some guy spent 100K to have his Frunk Gap be so Big a pigeon could fly in there and stay warm during winter.
Not Acceptable�
Jan 8, 2016
msnow I was with you until the last sentence unless you're saying they need to be a legit car company.�
Jan 8, 2016
Raven We do? I've been here about 18 months now and I gave up on trying. I've only gotten the "wtf?" look in response to my waves and have yet to see those unmistakeable headlights go.�
Jan 8, 2016
JeffS One of my quirky non-negotiables is...I don't pay for and order-for-later-delivery...anything. Bring it to me. Show me. Let me make sure I understand what I'm buying and approve of the product...then bring on the contract.
That leaves me to buy used or CPO or demo. There are a lot of threads about the lack of pricing delta between CPO/Demo. That was a challenge.
To add substance to this thread though - I was an early adopter on the Volt. I cut my teeth there. So I do consider myself an early adopter. We still have two 2012's and a 2014 Volt in my household. That was a more embattled car to be an early adopter than Tesla, by far. With that said, I do appreciate those that had the means and desire to step in super-early and let Tesla exist in 2015 when I purchased my car. I understand the new breed of buyers that compare dollar-for-dollar the Tesla to other ICE cars for the same price. I also understand the folks for whom... "meh...it's just a car. A cool one. But just a car".
There's no way to grow the company if all the customers have to be one type of buyer. I've enjoyed the heck out of this thread. But from the very first post onward, I've thought to myself "uh huh...yep...to be expected...yep...no kidding" and even a few "well...duh" type responses.
There aren't very many cars on the market for me. I'm an electric car guy 100% now. I'll never go back unless I have no choice. That's one type of buyer. For me - it's a question of "which electric car". Lots of folks who drive a car like mine are "which $90,000 car regardless of fuel". And still others are "which car is cool today regardless of price?"
Circling back to my first point though - if Tesla would produce cars for stock, that would be better. People could choose their car in reality, not just in theory. Creeks, rattles, disappointing options, comfort issues, etc., would all be apparent at the test drive stage. Which would be better. In my opinion.�
Jan 8, 2016
Twiglett That happens to me a lot�
Jan 8, 2016
Cebe But what if you were donating half of your collected fee to charity? Should I expect the service that I paid for, or half the service I paid for because you only kept half the money?
There are numerous quotes along the way in this thread, and I see it supporting the continuum between two extremes - "I believe in the Tesla mission and I think of the money I spent on this car as a donation towards that mission, and, oh, by the way, there was a small gift that came with it, and it's this car" at one end and "I am paying a luxury vehicle price, I want the experience and product that matches that price".
There may be a handful of people that fall into either of the extremes, but the great majority fall somewhere in between. I don't think it's a question of "early adopter" or "I bought it last Tuesday", though you would expect the early adopters to at least have started closer to the "mission" extreme than the "luxury car" extreme.
Either way, you can see how it would at least confuse and, depending on the person, annoy somebody closer to one extreme when they're discussing a particular issue with somebody closer to the other extreme. If you're closer to the "luxury car" extreme, it'd be weird not to bring up the issue of "fobs aren't tied to profiles, yet a $15k car has that", and if you're closer to the "mission" extreme, a comment like that would be weird and annoying, because they can't figure out how doing that would advance the mission of electrifying personal transportation.
I'm not sure I have a point.�
Jan 8, 2016
Max* I could take all the money and have a bonfire with it. As a customer, you should get the full expected service and not worry about what I do with my money (btw, I do see what you're trying to do with your question)
The rest of your statement I agree with.�
Jan 8, 2016
wdolson I've used DOS/Windows and Unix/Linux for many, many years starting back in the mid to late 80s. I'm one of those people who intuitively figured out early VCRs. I started building plastic models at 3 and have no problem putting Ikea furniture together. Figuring things out is usually very easy for me. As an Electronic Engineer by training, I learned the fundamentals of computers first and know intuitively what is and isn't possible and when faced with a program or OS that isn't familiar, I start with basic principles and then work out what the syntax is on that particular machine.
I have never been able to grok Apple OSs. It takes me 10X longer to figure out anything on an Apple OS than anything else. The reason is Apple has their own way of doing things and if you don't want to do it that particular way, tough, you aren't doing it. Other OSs take a broader approach and there are often multiple ways to do the same thing.
My SO is a big Apple fan. She had one of the first Macs and one of the first Apple laser printers. MacOS ha always been completely intuitive to her. She and I think similarly about a lot of things, but when it comes to computer OSs we think very differently. She likes to characterize Apple haters as thinking that Apple users are mentally deficient or something, but she's more brilliant than I am in raw brain horsepower.
Looking at her and other people I know who prefer Apple over other OSs, Apple's approach is intuitive to the way some people think, but is totally alien to other people. If you think that way, Apple OSs will be the best thing you have ever seen, if you don't using them will be torture.
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Upon reflection, using the term "entitlement" may have been a bit stronger than I meant.
I did read an article sometime last year that said Tesla does have more of a challenge with noise than other car companies because the engine is so quiet. A lot of squeaks and rattles that would go unnoticed in an ICE are very noticeable in a Tesla because of the lower motor noise. After reading that article, I began to listen to my old ICE which has always seemed very quiet to me. It has some engine noise, but I realized I've been in ICEs all my life and my brain just tunes out most of it. It's quiet compared to other ICE, but the engine noise is definitely there. Under the engine noise I noticed all sorts of rattles, creaks, and other noises that I mostly tuned out because they were part of the background symphony of noises that all ICE have to one degree or another. Unless a rattle gets very loud or very consistent, I just don't notice.
I do see both sides of the fence. A Model S is a $100K car and is more expensive than most people have ever paid for a car. If you're paying as much as a house in some parts of the country for a car (not in any west coast cities, but there are places you can buy a decent house for $100K if you want to live there), you expect certain standards to be met. On the other hand, the Model S costs what it does largely because of the batteries. Batteries still cost a premium compared to ICE. I have seen estimates that the Tesla battery pack costs somewhere between $20K and $30K. Tesla also makes $20K profit on the sale. Between the cost of the battery and profits, that's nearly 1/2 the sales price. The profit margin is probably as high as it is because Tesla hasn't lowered the price of the car and the cost of batteries has come down a bit.
If the Model S was an ICE, it would cost about $50K, which is in the ballpark of other full sized, well equipped family cars like a loaded Ford Taurus or Toyota Avalon. It gets far better mileage, better performance, and better cargo space than anything in that class.
I think a lot of the early buyers were also very much into the cause of putting BEVs on the road. As some others have observed in this thread, a lot of newer buyers are less concerned about that and more interested in other features of the car, especially the P85D and P90D buyers. I have to admit I wouldn't be interested in the Model S just because it's an EV. What drew me in was the superior qualities in many areas over an ICE. As an Electronic Engineer, I can appreciate the technology, but as I said before, technology alone doesn't sell something to me.�
Jan 8, 2016
msnow @wdolson, there's no way there's a 50% profit in this car, you need to provide some data that supports that statement. The only data I've seen from mid-2015 shows a $4k LOSS on each car.�
Jan 8, 2016
AmpedRealtor Well you haven't seen me yet! lol
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It's pretty well known that Tesla's margin in the car is over 20%. Tesla does not lose money on each car, that's nonsense. The reason Tesla doesn't post a profit is due to capital expenditures to grow the company. If you looked just at the vehicle numbers, the margin is much higher than the typical ICE.�
Jan 8, 2016
Raven I'd be glad to say hi sometime. I miss meeting owners that were still passionate about the car and company.�
Jan 8, 2016
Spidy Yep. Not everything in the tech and software world is perfect either. Games pre-orders have gotten a bad reputation, because games are delayed. unfinished games released or they come with other issues. That's really not the direction Tesla want to be going. And as other have already said that comes down to communication and to overdelivering and underpromising and not the other way round.�
Jan 8, 2016
kevincwelch Well, I'm 507EL in Illinois. Flag me down for a brew - any time!�
Jan 8, 2016
benf There are some major problem with this logic. Let's just say the batteries "cost" $25k. That appears to be what Tesla charges for a retail for a replacement, but let's just overestimate and say that's their "cost." The Tesla has extremely inexpensive drive units compared to luxury car twin-turbo V8's with 8 speed transmissions. You can't just remove the battery cost and then pretend a good ICE drivetrain is free. I'll be generous and say that the BMW 550i drivetrain "costs" $15k less than the Tesla drivetrain/batteries. Now let's also be generous and give Tesla another $10k of bonus padding for R&D cost per car since this technology is so new. So now the "Tesla ICEV" is $100k - $25k = $75k. The exact same price as my old BMW 550. But now that it doesn't have the EV technology that makes Tesla awesome and even remotely worth its pricetag, it's just a crappier ICEV than a comparable BMW, Mercedes, or Audi in the $75k price range. I'm failing to see the point here
The other major thing that Tesla has going against it for people who are complaining about these things, is the interior & overall quality of the Model S is identical if you spend $70k or $140k. No other manufacturer does this. A base 5 series is nothing like an M5. A base E class is nothing like an E63 AMG. But a base 70 is identical to a P90DL in terms of materials used, fit and finish, build quality, etc. It would be slightly easier to swallow some of these issues when the car only costs $70k. But if I had paid $140k for a P90DL ($40k more for MAYBE a $2500 more expensive rear motor, some fuses, and a software update) I'd be even more pissed they didn't take some of my $40k and apply it towards build quality.�
Jan 8, 2016
Max* benf: Your numbers don't make sense. $70k is a base 70kwh model, $140k is a fully loaded P90DL (leather seats, heated rear seats, heated steering wheel, nicer trim, extended leather, interior lighting, better sound, air suspension, autopilot, etc. On top of the speed and range improvements). You either gotta compare base 70 to base P90DL, or loaded 70D to loaded P90DL.
Otherwise I see your point.�
Jan 8, 2016
msnow Well 20% isn't 50% [emoji3] but now that I re-read the post he never said 50. My mistake.�
Jan 8, 2016
wdolson Point taken, I probably did exaggerate it a bit, your comparison to a $75K car is probably more accurate. Another factor that raises the price is the low production volume of the Model S compared to other cars. Tesla produced a little over 50,000 cars in 2015 and Subaru, which is the smallest mainstream car maker selling cars in the US made around 1 million cars last year. Tesla has to pay more for all their parts than every mainstream car maker because of their low volumes. That is one of the things you're paying for too. They should start getting better wholesale prices as their volume gets up around 500,000 cars a year.
The $100K ICE cars also carry some premium because of the cost of parts at the low volume production numbers they have, but a company that has lower priced cars can usually get some price breaks over Tesla which only has only two high priced cars at the moment.
Tesla does have the premium lighting package and the wood inlay dash, which are some extra trim things over the base car, but over the price range of the Tesla you are paying more for the technology increases than luxury increases. The step from the 70 to 85 is the price of the battery, the step between the RWD and D is the cost of the second motor and supporting equipment. Stepping up from the standard model to performance model is a bit of pocket padding, though there is possibly some improvement to the current handling in the drive equipment. Of course the autopilot is another tech upgrade. The ludicrous upgrade is almost pure profit for Tesla. They pretty much just enable stuff that is already there in all cars. I saw a video blog by kman in which he pointed out the battery pack in the 90D is identical to the P90D and the fuse is in the battery pack, so the 90D probably has the new fuse hardware, it just isn't enabled in firmware.
Most car companies add a lot of creature comforts as you go up in price, but with Tesla it's much more tech than creature comforts. Most of that tech is actually some sort of value added. It's a different way of thinking about cars.�
Jan 8, 2016
Polly Wog 
I think that this is a great thread. And, I think it shows the diversity of our membership. The vast majority of the posts make several good points, and very few have been mean-spirited. Per the little chart I've added above, I think our membership probably follows a Gaussian distribution. One could make up several ways to label it, but I chose what I did to make it as extreme as possible. I would definitely NOT put all new owners on the right, and all long-time owners on the left, as that simply isn't the case (as this thread demonstrates).
For myself, although I've only been an owner (and member) for about 2 years, I've followed Tesla since before they started building the Roadster. I would have joined TMC sooner, but I mistakenly thought I needed to be an actual owner to join - so I joined the moment I placed my order for my Model S. By my nature, I'm not much of a complainer, so I'm definitely left of center on this chart.�
Jan 8, 2016
AudubonB What I see at the center of that bell is "0SD".
That makes absolutely no sense at all.
Everybody knows that that central majority of TMC members are best described as "OCD".�
Jan 8, 2016
wdolson SD = Standard Deviation
0SD = zero SD, ie the middle of the spectrum.�
Jan 8, 2016
JenniferQ I think that was a joke...�
Jan 8, 2016
wdolson You're probably right.�
Jan 8, 2016
Beavis It's been a while since I've posted anything or even visited the site. I just come here now to look for rumors of technical updates or common issues since I'm pretty settled in with my baby now. People like Flasher or Bonnie know way more than I do so I don't come to share any special knowledge that I have because I don't have any. But I found this thread and couldn't put it down. Fascinating. I mean, I had no idea that the new owners are going to rumble with the early owners. I am going to load my West Side Story CD into my Walkman and meet y'all noobies under the freeway.�
Jan 9, 2016
jerry33 That's the dealer model. To do so you have to have significant inventory at each sales location, which puts pressure on the people there to sell what's in stock, and quickly, rather than what the customer wants. It adds cost with zero value. FWIW, my Model S with 63+K miles on it over three years has no squeaks, rattles, drivetrain issues, etc. As far as I'm concerned, Tesla's quality control is as good as any other car manufacturer and better than some.�
Jan 9, 2016
JeffS The problem with the dealer model is not that cars are in stock. Sorry to factually disagree...but the factual problem with the dealer model that Tesla is resisting, is the franchise element. Dealers in the traditional model are licensed franchisees. That's the problem. Not the stock.�
Jan 9, 2016
mspohr Two good points.
Dealers sell you what they have in stock which is rarely what you want.
(Plus Tesla has no spare capacity to produce inventory cars.)
My 85D with 25k miles also has no squeaks or rattles. Fit and finish is excellent.�
Jan 9, 2016
Cebe Personally, beyond the "don't get me stranded on the side of the road" type of reliability from Tesla, I will take everything else at "beta" quality, if it means advancing the technology, including Model 3. And removing the excuses the "old" car manufacturers had, because of proof by example. If that means the press releases are screwed up, the show and tells start late, I can't get a hold of a delivery specialist (because I'm so used to being on a first time basis with all the dealers from which I bought my previous cars), so be it.
So, when somebody posts "Tesla must get this better", they should really say "it is important to me, and customers like me, for Tesla to get this better". Me, I consider myself a beta tester for Tesla, and don't expect anything beyond the beta quality.�
Jan 9, 2016
ohmman To me, these statements seem somewhat contradictory. When someone posts "Tesla must get this better", isn't the implication "so that the wider car buying audience will adopt the Model 3?" That's how I look at it. I want Tesla to succeed, which is why I think they must get better at some things.
I don't want to misconstrue the consumer/manufacturer relationship, so don't take this literally. But as a parent, when I see behavior I don't want my kids to have when they're older, I provide feedback and correction. I don't just consider them "beta" humans. :wink:�
Jan 9, 2016
Cebe That is the implication, yes. It is however their opinion that is what it will take. It may very well be that rattles don't cost Tesla a single sale beyond them. Or it may be that the lack of AM radio in the X costs them thousands, yet didn't bother the original poster at all.
The "parent" analogy is valid, except that, in this case, the parent surrogate is Elon, not any of us
If it wasn't internet, I would naturally get offended by the implication that, based on what I expect out of my Model S, I consider my children "beta" humans. But that would clearly identify me as an internet noob�
Jan 9, 2016
TomKristi First off, Bonnie, you are always a class act! We, too, have come across people like this. Regardless of when someone decides to buy a Tesla, does not give them the right to be an a..hole. It is so disappointing to hear of your experiences at the D reveal. We feel it is such an honor to get invited to these events. When you have people that act like that it is just unacceptable . We got our S in June 2013 and we still love to talk to people about it and wave when we see another Tesla. We were just at the Rocklin SC with our Sig X and there was a super nice young couple in their S. They came over and were delighted that we would show them our X They hope that this will be their next vehicle. Every day we feel fortunate to be driving a Tesla and to be a part of changing the world.�
Jan 9, 2016
JenniferQ Haha! Thanks for a smile.�
Jan 17, 2016
BozieBeMe2 'AudubonB'
++++++++++++1,
I have a "mild" case of it, but I approve�
Jan 17, 2016
BozieBeMe2 Quite the contra.
In the case of Tesla the man and Tesla the car, I like to think Nickola always felt things can be and should be - Better.
Nickola was, in my opinion, a genius out of place and time. Not all of his ideas have proven out (YET) but never less, those ideas were remarkable.
So, when it comes to Tesla the car, many of the basic ideas have been with us since Nickola's time. Elon and Company have vastly improved on the basics of the Tesla motor and added their "Special Sauce', to the mix. The disruptive nature in which this accumulation of thinking was applied became the basis of 'Tesla the Car'.
Believe it or not, Elon and Company, are not alone. As the old gospel songs lyrics said, 'A Change Gonna Come'.
Maybe not a adapt application of the phrase but I'll risk it here.
I do sincerely feel, that as Early Adopters or just plain Tesla Owners, we feel that this disruptive way of thinking, strikes a chord with us.
Other wise, why did we sign on with this new fangled automobile in the first place?, it's just a car, Right?
Don't get me wrong,
I really Love This Car!
Many people can and have attempt to make it or mimic it, but it's not the same.
So, bare with us Tesla People, We may scrabble and complain. But we do want the best for Tesla.
We want bragging rights to what is arguably, the Very Best collection of Ideas to date.
We get possessive, argumentative, but we tend to stick up for 'Our Car'�
Jan 17, 2016
jbcarioca Somehow the 'early adopter' mantra tends to irritate me. I admit I have bought a fair number of products before they were mainstream, a large number of which soon disappeared (in cars think NSU RO80, Mazda R100, and so on). It seems to me the typical view among 'normal' people is that one is an early adopter if most people familiar with the general topic know nothing about the one you just bought. By that metric Tesla buyers outside California and Norway might well be seen as early adopters today. Rationally seems to me none of us after Roadster owners and Signature S are really in the category.
Anyway I do not much care. I am so thrilled to be in my car every single time that I cannot be bothered about anything much other than plotting how to get more time to drive it. Now that Superchargers are widespread I do not even think I am ion emerging in any respect whatsoever.
OTOH, I remain a TSLA shareholders after a couple of years. That makes me something but I dread to think what it might be.�
Jan 17, 2016
lucy I think that the "early adopter" badge might depend on where you live.
Teslas of all types are no big deal in southern California, or even on the East coast.
Seeing one in here the flyover states, hundreds of miles from a showroom, service or a Supercharger is another matter.
I want credit as an early adopter AND as a new buyer!
How's that for entitlement! :tongue:�
Jan 17, 2016
Canuck Buying different types of ICE vehicles is completely different than going from ICE to full electric. The "early adopter" being talked about here, and that irritates you, is adopting a form of transportation that is completely "ICE"less.
I fail to see how anyone can be irritated with this slogan being used for those who bought the first Teslas. I have nothing but admiration and appreciation for them and I feel they should wear this slogan as a badge of honour. If no one bought them, we wouldn't be driving them now that they are becoming more and more commonplace.
My hat is off to all of you "early adopters"!�
Jan 17, 2016
MikeL Once I finally get my Model X, did you catch the subtle complaint there? :wink:, we can all decide together where I fit in. I once thought I was an early adopter, that seems like a really long time ago.�
Jan 18, 2016
davidc18 Have to agree with this. Our MS has been into the SC many, many (to many) times. It is a car for us, not a 'mission' and I expect/demand that it operate as advertised.�
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