teslamotorclub: Drive Unit failure symptoms and thresholds for replacement part 1

As of April, 2015, what are the current official drive unit failure symptoms that one would experience prior to a drive unit failure? And what are the detection methods Tesla currently uses to define drive unit failure or predict drive unit failure?

I'm asking for updated clarification since in the past we've heard that possible symptoms are "clunks", " whines ", and "humming/buzzing". I would think that Tesla now has certain metrics to measure against rather than relying on owner feedback that may be falsy induced or inaccurately observed.

Thanks ahead of time.
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supratachophobia said: ?

As of April, 2015, what are the current official drive unit failure symptoms that one would experience prior to a drive unit failure? And what are the detection methods Tesla currently uses to define drive unit failure or predict drive unit failure?

I'm asking for updated clarification since in the past we've heard that possible symptoms are "clunks", " whines ", and "humming/buzzing". I would think that Tesla now has certain metrics to measure against rather than relying on owner feedback that may be falsy induced or inaccurately observed.

Thanks ahead of time.
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They have some means of measuring the motor noise/squeal/whine and if it exceeds a certain threshold they swap it out. I had a mild whine (mild to me, but clearly audible, even with the stereo on on any acceleration) and it exceeded the threshold and they replaced my drive unit. There were never any drivability issues. I believe those that get to the 'clunk' stage are much worse.
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My car is in for the first time mainly to get the shield installed and I mentioned hearing a noise on acceleration. I just received a call from my Service Advisor and Tesla will be changing the drivetrain. The car is 13 months/ 35,000 miles old. (Still the best car ever).
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Now THAT is service!

I am beginning to notice the sound of my motor more now than when new. I only have 9,500 mi on her. I seem to recall almost complete silence when I would hammer her. Now I can clearly here the motor. Not annoying at all and quite discreet. I can only hear it if the music is off. I don't know if it is me just getting accustomed to it or not. I do now notice just how loud my other car is. And annoying.

Blaze said: ?

My car is in for the first time mainly to get the shield installed and I mentioned hearing a noise on acceleration. I just received a call from my Service Advisor and Tesla will be changing the drivetrain. The car is 13 months/ 35,000 miles old. (Still the best car ever).
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Not sure what the 'official' symptoms are, but when I was in for my 24k service a couple of months ago, I had my drive unit replaced for a low level intermittent clunk from the rear. No milling noise, no buzzing, no warning messages, no actual failure. FWIW, the service tech is required to try the TSB shim fix first, and, if the sounds do not go away, then they are authorized to replace the drive unit. There also is a retrofit new motor mount bracket that gets replaced at the same time.
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Really appreciate the updated information. Both the mileage and the symptoms mentioned here sound all too familiar, but I wanted more info before jumping to conclusions or involving the SC.
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Have we ever learned what exactly the reason for the "clunk" was, and has it been permanently fixed in the newer cars?
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mhpr262 said: ?

Have we ever learned what exactly the reason for the "clunk" was, and has it been permanently fixed in the newer cars?
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Based on this thread, im going to say the chances are slim they have found a permanent fix....
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This is why I will never, ever, buy a Tesla product unless it's been market-tested for at least 2 years.

Tesla has a really bad habit of using its owners as beta testers and offloading QC that should have been done by Tesla onto its customers. The reason Tesla service is so superior is because Tesla knew, very early on, that it will have to mitigate poor initial quality by offering a great service experience. And here we are in 2015 and owners are still experiencing drive unit problems. The three drive units that have been replaced in my car hardly inspire confidence to purchase a 2nd Tesla vehicle down the road.

Sure, I love the car, but the initial quality that would be expected from a $100,000 car purchase just wasn't there. My Volkswagen Jetta, Acura Integra, Toyota Highlander, and Toyota Prius all had far better initial quality and none of them required any warranty repairs - none. I spent a total of less than $500 on out-of-warranty issues on all of these vehicles combined. Tesla has a very, very long way to go and I am quite concerned about what my costs will look like once the Tesla warranty expires.
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I'll take any Tesla any day over those cars, no matter what....

Tesla replaced the drive unit in my P85, they drop a loaner off at my house before I left for work, replaced the drive unit, and dropped the car back off at my house the same day.... no inconvenience to me at all...

AmpedRealtor said: ?

My Volkswagen Jetta, Acura Integra, Toyota Highlander, and Toyota Prius all had far better initial quality and none of them required any warranty repairs - none. I spent a total of less than $500 on out-of-warranty issues on all of these vehicles combined. Tesla has a very, very long way to go and I am quite concerned about what my costs will look like once the Tesla warranty expires.
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fiksegts said: ?

I'll take any Tesla any day over those cars, no matter what....

Tesla replaced the drive unit in my P85, they drop a loaner off at my house before I left for work, replaced the drive unit, and dropped the car back off at my house the same day.... no inconvenience to me at all...
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I prefer my Tesla as well, but that doesn't mitigate the fact that it had very poor initial quality.
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AmpedRealtor said: ?

I prefer my Tesla as well, but that doesn't mitigate the fact that it had very poor initial quality.
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I still think there is an inconvenience in dealing with the problems in the first place. Then there is the troubleshooting on your part, the communication on your part to relay the issue to service, verifying the problem really is resolved, etc.

I've already said that Tesla has a habit of squandering the time and goodwill of its owner base. Then gambleing an amazing service experience will cancel it out. Well it mitigates it, but it doesnt solve the underlying problem. And it shouldn't take 7 months to get a car to the point where it should have been when it left the factory.

This thread wasn't meant to be a rant or a slant on Tesla, but ampedRealtor seams to have really touched on an issue I have been skirting for a while. I try to keep my SC details private, but let's call my service history "lengthy".

This is another reason I'm extremely critical when I see articles touting the car as the best at anything. These reviewers have maybe a 24hr window to test and take notes. This is literally the blink of an eye in the tapestry of ownership. I will admit there are outliers here and out there that seem to have less issues. Id be super interested to see if lower mileage and/or more temperate climates contribute to statistical differences.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm still in this. And I suspect part of the reason i am is because when you don't have problems, the car and the experience are untouchable. Unfortunately, it looks like I have something else to add to the list.

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I'll take a defect problem free car over great service any day. Good to have both, but if I had to choose.....

I'm hearing an occasional clunk out of the rear when going real slow. I think it's while changing directions. It's happened five or six times in the last 1300 miles. I wasn't concerned until I read this thread.
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I too appreciate a service free car and my Tesla has been pretty close - but when you buy a company's first production model in its first real world year - you have to anticipate being a bit of an explorer - this is a 100% new car; not just an adaptation of some prior model. I'd say they did pretty darn well!!

I'll take my Tesla, even with its few quirks (FWIW it has had less service than my BMW at comparable mileage).
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flybob08 said: ?

I too appreciate a service free car and my Tesla has been pretty close - but when you buy a company's first production model in its first real world year - you have to anticipate being a bit of an explorer - this is a 100% new car; not just an adaptation of some prior model. I'd say they did pretty darn well!!

I'll take my Tesla, even with its few quirks (FWIW it has had less service than my BMW at comparable mileage).
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I totally get that argument and as a normally early adopter on many technologies (doesn't mean I don't research), I would give lots of things passes for Tesla. But the reality is that this is the third production year and we are seeing similar issues across all manner of VIN numbers. I would argue the third year should not have the same problems as the first year in such a rapidly moving paced field as Tesla is in. I'm all for different problems. ?

But seriously, at this point tell me, is the technology flawed or is it their application of that technology?
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Will the "exemplary service experience" that Tesla is able to deliver at the ~65K fleet size continue to scale at 100K? 150K? At what point will they decide that it's costing them too much, causing the experience to change, and not for the better?

One way for Tesla to continue to deliver this level of service experience as the fleet grows is to shake out the bugs earlier, (that is, before they end up in the owner's lap), therby reducing the number of cars reporting to a SvC for "known" issues, letting them concentrate on break/fix vs as-designed issues.

A major tenent of agile is the concept of releasing things that are "good enough" and waiting for feedback on things in that release that are broken.

...Sound familiar?
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supratachophobia said: ?

But the reality is that this is the third production year and we are seeing similar issues across all manner of VIN numbers. I would argue the third year should not have the same problems as the first year in such a rapidly moving paced field as Tesla is in. I'm all for different problems. ?

But seriously, at this point tell me, is the technology flawed or is it their application of that technology?
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I don't think the technology (electric motors) is flawed. Drivetrain replacement for any reason (noise, failure, etc.) is almost unheard of on the Leaf, from my long time being on MNL, despite there being several times more Leafs in the world than Model S.

(Gen 2) Rav4 EV (aka poor man's Tesla) also has similar drive unit noise problems and many people have gotten theirs replaced, despite a much lower max output rating on the Rav4 EV. It's still an ongoing problem w/that vehicle, not surprisingly.
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I have no idea how Nissan dealership service is. Why? Because my two Leafs over 55k miles have not seen a service center (except for the mandatory 12 month battery check).

Not once. It just drives.
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Same for my Smart ED. Never seen the dealer in 1.5 years. I absolutely thrash on my little EV, and no issues so far.
I do wonder if there is something to the size/scope of moving a massive car like the Model S at the rate of speed it's capable of...
My car is 1/3 of the mass, and 1/6 of the motor power...
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Atebit said: ?

Will the "exemplary service experience" that Tesla is able to deliver at the ~65K fleet size continue to scale at 100K? 150K? At what point will they decide that it's costing them too much, causing the experience to change, and not for the better?

One way for Tesla to continue to deliver this level of service experience as the fleet grows is to shake out the bugs earlier, (that is, before they end up in the owner's lap), therby reducing the number of cars reporting to a SvC for "known" issues, letting them concentrate on break/fix vs as-designed issues.

A major tenent of agile is the concept of releasing things that are "good enough" and waiting for feedback on things in that release that are broken.

...Sound familiar?
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Like I said, the only way one can cope with this is the exemplary customer service. If the service center wasn't so close and so willing to deal with every single issue in a timely manner, I'd be in a very bad mood most of the time and the subject of Tesla would be a sour subject indeed.

I won't go as far as to say we deserve such great service, because what they do often goes above and beyond the minimum of what they need to do. However, I have come to expect great service as the norm. If I take the car in, I will get as best a service experience as one can hope given the fact a six figure purchase has issues, again.

Now fleet size terrifies me and always has even before purchase. But everyone whom I asked regarding the issue had an interesting response. The service level for model S will stay the same no matter what. It's like some corporate 10 commandments from on-high.

Back to the topic, were there ever any issues with drive-train and the roadster?
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Maybe it's the axial load on the radial ball bearings from the spiral-cut gears?

Roadster drive photo from TM site and Model S from How It's Made.
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cwerdna said: ?

I don't think the technology (electric motors) is flawed. Drivetrain replacement for any reason (noise, failure, etc.) is almost unheard of on the Leaf, from my long time being on MNL, despite there being several times more Leafs in the world than Model S.

(Gen 2) Rav4 EV (aka poor man's Tesla) also has similar drive unit noise problems and many people have gotten theirs replaced, despite a much lower max output rating on the Rav4 EV. It's still an ongoing problem w/that vehicle, not surprisingly.
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This is Tesla's "aggressive" approach. Deploy early, make iterative improvements. As far as I understand, they remove the expensive components, replace with another one, ship the removed part back to base for rebuild, rebuild, possibly replacing problematic components, ship it out for use as a replacement. They're expensive components so it's worth rebuilding them. It'd be great to see a graph to know whether they've actually been making improvements over time.
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KB, can you identify that photo, please?
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supratachophobia said: ?

I totally get that argument and as a normally early adopter on many technologies (doesn't mean I don't research), I would give lots of things passes for Tesla. But the reality is that this is the third production year and we are seeing similar issues across all manner of VIN numbers. I would argue the third year should not have the same problems as the first year in such a rapidly moving paced field as Tesla is in.
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^^ this. Granted, we aren't seeing many of the early problems - door handles not working, doors opening randomly, cars leaking, alcantara/headliner issues, pano roof issues, etc. But the drive unit and 12v battery issues seem to persist. Now the P85D w/ air suspension has a shock "design issue" that is causing the shocks to make a sound when going over bumps. Tesla is in the process of "redesigning" the shocks and will issue a service bulletin for affected vehicles. Another example of not properly testing something, waiting for owners to have problems, then send back to engineering for a redesign.

THAT'S NOT HOW YOU DESIGN A CAR! That's how you piss off owners and show the world that you have low initial quality.

Atebit said: ?

Will the "exemplary service experience" that Tesla is able to deliver at the ~65K fleet size continue to scale at 100K? 150K? At what point will they decide that it's costing them too much, causing the experience to change, and not for the better?

One way for Tesla to continue to deliver this level of service experience as the fleet grows is to shake out the bugs earlier, (that is, before they end up in the owner's lap), therby reducing the number of cars reporting to a SvC for "known" issues, letting them concentrate on break/fix vs as-designed issues.

A major tenent of agile is the concept of releasing things that are "good enough" and waiting for feedback on things in that release that are broken.

...Sound familiar?
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It cannot scale no matter what Tesla says. Here in Arizona, we have one service center for the entire state of Arizona, western New Mexico, and southeastern California. You'd think Tesla would be building more service centers here, but they aren't. There are over 1,500 Model S vehicles here in Arizona, not to mention the ones in New Mexico and southeastern California. That's a lot for a single service center, especially when the cars are nowhere near as reliable as Nissans or Toyotas. Tesla has recently enacted a 10-mile radius for valet service, so I will no longer receive the free valet service that I had previously received living 48 miles from the service center. That is Tesla cutting back on some of this excellent service as the fleet scales. It's relatively minor, but an indication of things to come. Sell us a promise as early adopters, to make the sale, then gradually change that promise over time because it was never a sustainable promise in the first place. This seems to be a funny way of doing business for a company that wants to move the world to sustainable transportation.

ItsNotAboutTheMoney said: ?

This is Tesla's "aggressive" approach. Deploy early, make iterative improvements. As far as I understand, they remove the expensive components, replace with another one, ship the removed part back to base for rebuild, rebuild, possibly replacing problematic components, ship it out for use as a replacement. They're expensive components so it's worth rebuilding them. It'd be great to see a graph to know whether they've actually been making improvements over time.
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I appreciate that Tesla decided that it needs to iterate quickly as an automotive startup, but doesn't that come at the owner's expense? Regardless of the service experience, it's still an inconvenience when the car throws an error, you must take the time to call service for diagnosis, then drive the car into service if it's more than 10 miles from the service center, etc. Thankfully I've received a Model S loaner every time, but only because I insisted upon it and scheduled far enough in advance because that's important to me. Most owners here get an Enterprise rental, which is another disappointment. Elon promised a Model S loaner for every service. Another example of pissing away owner loyalty.

Most automobile companies field test their vehicles in all sorts of extreme conditions before committing to production. They test the car in conditions ranging from bitter, cold winter weather to scorching, hot desert summers. I've yet to hear one example of Tesla doing this with any of their cars. In 2012 and 2013 we had reports of side view mirror components corroding due to salt exposure. The same issues affected structural beams in the frunk. All required service bulletins and an iterative fix in manufacturing. This doesn't happen if you properly field test your cars in the first place. Those problems will express themselves during testing, and a traditional car company would solve those problems before putting the model on sale. Tesla appears to do none of this.
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So let's say that kennybobby is right. Let's also assume that for whatever reason, this particular design is the lesser of the evils on how to design something with so much torque.

There should be an up front admittance that regular maintenance of said bearings is required at certain intervals. And not this ethereal unknown that it might happen or feigned ignorance.
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supratachophobia said: ?

So let's say that kennybobby is right. Let's also assume that for whatever reason, this particular design is the lesser of the evils on how to design something with so much torque.

There should be an up front admittance that regular maintenance of said bearings is required at certain intervals. And not this ethereal unknown that it might happen or feigned ignorance.
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I was told by service that the hum above 70 MPH is a bearing lubrication issue. Lack of lubrication of the bearings causes something in the DU to warp - a seal or ring or something like that - which results in the vibrational noise. I could be off, since the explanation was quick and I was doing other things at the time.
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AmpedRealtor said: ?

I was told by service that the hum above 70 MPH is a bearing lubrication issue. Lack of lubrication of the bearings causes something in the DU to warp - a seal or ring or something like that - which results in the vibrational noise. I could be off, since the explanation was quick and I was doing other things at the time.
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Fair enough, let's say that is the issue. At 15k miles, you come in, get your tires rotated, grab a complemenarty bottled water (unless you are in CA), and they top of the fluid.

You see, if it really was that easy to predict and fix, they wouldn't have drive unit failures across 60k vins. I think they need to decide sooner rather than later if they are going to be up front about a design flaw or be upfront about miscommunicating regular maintenance for their particular implementation of electric drive-train.

Because we all know where this puts out of warranty cars, up a creek with a broken $10k+ paddle.

You think the evolution of AWD was purely for efficiancy, speed, and traction? The car was already doing great in all of those. I think they want less stress on a the larger rear motor. And I bet there is a collective sigh of relief that AWD makes that possible.
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No car has, or ever will have, a 0 defect rate. So the relevant questions are, what failure rate is acceptable, and what failure rate constitutes a design flaw?

Then of course you need to know what failure rate is Tesla having. The implication in this thread seems to be it's really high, but I haven't seen any data for that. Consumer Reports says the failure rate is pretty average for the industry. I would like to see Tesla do better, but I don't see evidence they have a serious problem now. (There was clearly a problem with the drivetrains they shipped to Norway; those have been replaced but it seems like that was a separate issue).

Tesla is moving fast, and growing fast while trying to save money - problems are certainly possible and we should watch for them. But I haven't see anything that has me concerned about this yet (of course I may have missed something - please point me to another thread if I did). If their replacement rate is 2% (say 1% for real or impending failures and 1% for noises that are not serious but they replaced just in case and because it was easy and the customer was complaining) then we would expect them to have replaced 1,000 drivetrains so far. If 10% of them post here, we'd expect to hear 100 reports. Obviously I am just picking numbers and don't know what the real ones are, but trying to illustrate that we should EXPECT many reports of replaced drivetrains here even if there is no design flaw.
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ChadS said: ?

No car has, or ever will have, a 0 defect rate. So the relevant questions are, what failure rate is acceptable, and what failure rate constitutes a design flaw?

Then of course you need to know what failure rate is Tesla having. The implication in this thread seems to be it's really high, but I haven't seen any data for that. Consumer Reports says the failure rate is pretty average for the industry. I would like to see Tesla do better, but I don't see evidence they have a serious problem now. (There was clearly a problem with the drivetrains they shipped to Norway; those have been replaced but it seems like that was a separate issue).

Tesla is moving fast, and growing fast while trying to save money - problems are certainly possible and we should watch for them. But I haven't see anything that has me concerned about this yet (of course I may have missed something - please point me to another thread if I did). If their replacement rate is 2% (say 1% for real or impending failures and 1% for noises that are not serious but they replaced just in case and because it was easy and the customer was complaining) then we would expect them to have replaced 1,000 drivetrains so far. If 10% of them post here, we'd expect to hear 100 reports. Obviously I am just picking numbers and don't know what the real ones are, but trying to illustrate that we should EXPECT many reports of replaced drivetrains here even if there is no design flaw.
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That's the best part of this thread. If they have a design flaw and/or lack of regular maintenance is causing an issue (fluid), then it's a question of when, not if. Now we have to ask which drivers will see that in their ownership lifetime. I will grant that it looks like less overall stress to the drive-train would stretch out having an issue.

So now I want lifetime watts/mile and mileage graphed against DU replacement. I think that will be very enlightening.
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I'm with AmpedRealtor and the others who are a little disappointed with the quality of some aspects of the car. Overall the quality is actually pretty good, but there are several issues that should not be in a production car. None of them are critical, though and every single one them has been taken serious by the service centers. The reason I'm not as upset as others here is because Tesla created something that wasn't there before and no one else wanted to do. They made the best EV that surpasses every other EV. It's the only EV that meets my requirements and it has surpassed every requirement and expectation I had. Tesla deserves credit for making something like that happen and mass produce it. The importance of that by far outweighs the issues I see with the car right now. Tesla has changed the car industry forever. It's the beginning of the end for big oil and the change over to sustainable energy. Getting free service to fix the small issues is an inconvenience I'm willing to accept thinking about the big picture.
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I have the milling sound, a power transformer-like buzzing sound under low accelerator levels, and am now getting a clunk, especially when putting it in reverse and starting to roll backwards. Mentioned all of this to my service guy who promised they would do a "ride/recording" of the car to send to engineering for analysis. It rained the day they had it, and since the roads were wet they skipped the test because the roads were too wet and told me to remind them next time I have it in for service. I'm keeping a close ear on it, but I do think mine is as bad as other people's who have had replacements... Based on their descriptions at least.. The milling, low transformer buzz and clunk aren't nearly as annoying as the loud drone noise that makes my car sound like a souped up Honda civic with aftermarket exhaust above 75-80MPH. that gets really annoying on long trips :-(
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Of course it's an inconvenience you live with until the drive unit fails during an otherwise normal day of driving. The problem is that I may or may not have something important to do or not to do. Again, it's not an if, it's a when. And everyone on here who experiences the symptoms are xxxx miles away from failure.
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SeminoleFSU said: ?

I have the milling sound, a power transformer-like buzzing sound under low accelerator levels, and am now getting a clunk, especially when putting it in reverse and starting to roll backwards. Mentioned all of this to my service guy who promised they would do a "ride/recording" of the car to send to engineering for analysis. It rained the day they had it, and since the roads were wet they skipped the test because the roads were too wet and told me to remind them next time I have it in for service. I'm keeping a close ear on it, but I do think mine is as bad as other people's who have had replacements... Based on their descriptions at least.. The milling, low transformer buzz and clunk aren't nearly as annoying as the loud drone noise that makes my car sound like a souped up Honda civic with aftermarket exhaust above 75-80MPH. that gets really annoying on long trips :-(
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I thought the hum I am hearing above 75 mph was the tires. I probably have the same issue. My car hasnt had a DU replacement afaik (got it used).
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supratachophobia said: ?

Of course it's an inconvenience you live with until the drive unit fails during an otherwise normal day of driving. The problem is that I may or may not have something important to do or not to do. Again, it's not an if, it's a when. And everyone on here who experiences the symptoms are xxxx miles away from failure.
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I have not heard of a drive unit fail on any Model S owner yet. Maybe there were a handful, but that's not a general quality issue. Every car manufacturer has to deal with a few cases of failed parts. The drive unit problems discussed widely are all non-critical and the service will fix them. Elon even later added the drive unit to the full warranty.
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David99 said: ?

I have not heard of a drive unit fail on any Model S owner yet. Maybe there were a handful, but that's not a general quality issue. Every car manufacturer has to deal with a few cases of failed parts. The drive unit problems discussed widely are all non-critical and the service will fix them. Elon even later added the drive unit to the full warranty.
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Are you sure? I feel so much better now.

I thought some owners had experienced an error message along the lines of "pull car over safely to side of the road". Or am I confusing drive unit failure in the wild with 12v failure?
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David99 said: ?

I have not heard of a drive unit fail on any Model S owner yet. Maybe there were a handful
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The drive unit problems discussed widely are all non-critical and the service will fix them.
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There are definitely far fewer total drive unit failures than drive unit noise issues, but there are definitely some. Some examples:
Pull over Safely, Restart Car to Drive
Stuck on the Freeway - 2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test that resulted in Is the Third Drive Unit the Charm? - 2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test

Drive Unit Replacement Poll - Page 9 led to Drive Unit Replacement Poll - Page 9

Drive Unit Replacement Poll - Page 12

Drive Unit Replacement Poll - Page 15 (supposedly)
Drive Unit Replacement Poll - Page 15
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supratachophobia said: ?

Are you sure?
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Yes. David is correct.

supratachophobia said: ?

I thought some owners had experienced an error message along the lines of "pull car over safely to side of the road". Or am I confusing drive unit failure in the wild with 12v failure?
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The pull over message can happen for a variety of reasons (including sensor failure). it would be nice if there was additional information when you press the alert button on the screen (even if it was just something like "Pull over safely: cooling problem"), but as far as I can tell the alert button just repeats what's shown on the popup.
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Has Tesla ever had an NHTSA recall? Recalls are very common in the industry but not having one would have you presume that a lot of testing went into the Model S before coming to market.
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So.... Back to worrying.

And you would be hard pressed to convince me that drive unit noises don't eventually turn into drive unit failures. But it would great if the symptoms were early enough to do something about. It seems that it is in the majority of cases.
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supratachophobia said: ?

And you would be hard pressed to convince me that drive unit noises don't eventually turn into drive unit failures. But it would great if the symptoms were early enough to do something about. It seems that it is in the majority of cases.
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Every drive unit in every car ever made fails eventually. This is not something I worry about. However, I heard something when I was eight or ten from one of my childhood friend's father (who was a mechanic) that I've always kept in mind. "Every time you go a little fast around a corner or accelerate a little hard, you pay for it down the road with automotive repair bills."
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supratachophobia said: ?

So now I want lifetime watts/mile and mileage graphed against DU replacement. I think that will be very enlightening.
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Lifetime watts/mile is not necessarily an indication of how the car was driven. Running the heater jacks that number way up.
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gavine said: ?

Has Tesla ever had an NHTSA recall? Recalls are very common in the industry but not having one would have you presume that a lot of testing went into the Model S before coming to market.
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Yes, but not for car losing power/coming to a stop unexpectedly while in motion. Click on Recalls when visiting http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchResults?prodType=V&searchType=PROD&targetCategory=A&searchCriteria.model=MODEL+S&stats=1839811%2C2%2C1%2C29%2C12%2CMODEL+S&makeStats=&jsonBaseURL=%2Fdownloads%2Ffolders%2F&searchCriteria.model_yr=2013&searchCriteria.make=TESLA&searchCriteria.prod_ids=1839811. You can lookup recalls for any car at Home | Safercar -- National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).

As for the above symptom, it would help if drivers who experience legitimate safety defects (not user error: e.g. running out of battery) report them to both their automaker AND NHTSA (or appropriate counterpart for their country). I've encouraged people to do so (even on other makes and models where I'm a fan/enthusiast of) and even had some of that got carved out into another thread: When to report NHTSA issues?.

Unfortunately, there are a vocal few who believe that it's "best" to not report them to NHTSA for whatever reason (e.g. "protecting" Tesla, car coming to a stop while in motion "isn't" a "safety "defect" despite tens of millions of other cars having been recalled for "stalling", "losing power", turning off unexpectedly, etc. and that continue to do so, etc.) and discourage others from doing so by making by making such arguments.

It even says to report them to both in the manual (I quoted it at When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 8).

I currently have no more time nor motivation to argue w/people who won't change their mind. At least some here agree with me and I've observed a few here have seen the light. On other car forums I'm on, there is NOT the same backlash about reporting clear safety defects to NHTSA and others there frequently call for reporting them, if the driver legitimately encountered them, preferably after reasonable attempts have been made to resolve the issue, when possible.

Again, I'm not calling for a recall, merely for reporting legitimate safety defects. It might spur more action on this issue on both Tesla's side or NHTSA's side (which might push Tesla). They both can then make the determination whether a deeper investigation or recall is warranted. But... if reports don't make to NHTSA and there are some inside Tesla who have the same "belief" that the above symptom "isn't a safety defect"...

Re: the testing on Tesla's side, I do really wonder. Setting aside total drive unit failure, there's still the issue of HV battery pack replacement due to something inside failing (contactor?) and the drive unit noise issues. It seems to me, if you bought a Model S between its 1st day on the market and now, the chances of requiring at least 1 drive unit replacement before 100K miles is pretty high, given the noise problem still keeps happening and some folks have been thru multiple replacements for noise.

I posted some stuff on durability testing at other automakers at My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Official Tesla Model S thread and My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - automotive reliability and durability testing. And, got a response at My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Official Tesla Model S thread. And, keep in mind the Nissan, GM, Chrysler and Ford are not exactly top tier in terms of overall reliability across all their vehicles, year over year (i.e. not up to Toyota/Honda standards).

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AmpedRealtor said: ?

^^ this. Granted, we aren't seeing many of the early problems - door handles not working, doors opening randomly, cars leaking, alcantara/headliner issues, pano roof issues, etc. But the drive unit and 12v battery issues seem to persist. Now the P85D w/ air suspension has a shock "design issue" that is causing the shocks to make a sound when going over bumps. Tesla is in the process of "redesigning" the shocks and will issue a service bulletin for affected vehicles. Another example of not properly testing something, waiting for owners to have problems, then send back to engineering for a redesign.

THAT'S NOT HOW YOU DESIGN A CAR! That's how you piss off owners and show the world that you have low initial quality.
...

I appreciate that Tesla decided that it needs to iterate quickly as an automotive startup, but doesn't that come at the owner's expense? Regardless of the service experience, it's still an inconvenience when the car throws an error, you must take the time to call service for diagnosis, then drive the car into service if it's more than 10 miles from the service center, etc.
...

Most automobile companies field test their vehicles in all sorts of extreme conditions before committing to production. They test the car in conditions ranging from bitter, cold winter weather to scorching, hot desert summers. I've yet to hear one example of Tesla doing this with any of their cars. In 2012 and 2013 we had reports of side view mirror components corroding due to salt exposure. The same issues affected structural beams in the frunk. All required service bulletins and an iterative fix in manufacturing. This doesn't happen if you properly field test your cars in the first place. Those problems will express themselves during testing, and a traditional car company would solve those problems before putting the model on sale. Tesla appears to do none of this.
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Agreed. Re: cold weather testing, Tesla posted Cold Weather Climate Testing the Model S | Tesla Motors.

Re: scorching summer testing, all/virtually all automakers selling in the US conduct tests in Death Valley: Death Valley's a hotbed of car-testing intrigue - ABC News and Vehicle Testing - Death Valley National Park (U.S. National Park Service).

But yes, when one sees multiple people going thru multiple drive units (not just you) but these: 2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Wrap-Up | Edmunds.com and Model S Not Ready For Commercial Use Prime Time. Can I afford to own this car?, one does wonder about the long-term durability and reliability testing along w/manufacturing consistency. Let's say Tesla passes their own (theoretically tough) durability tests w/flying colors, how consistently can they and their suppliers deliver that same level of quality and what quality checks are in place to ensure that keeps happening?
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I find this thread interesting...as a service tech for GM and doing fleet repair covering most other brands, I deal with concerns like this almost every day. You should see my email. Software updates, hold orders, updated parts, engineering requesting data,pictures, old parts........ I understand the frustration of the owners on this thread and of my customers at work. It is difficult to tell a consumer that his/her car is operating as designed (while there is no fix at this time), or that the part provided to fix the issue did not, ect... I am just as frustrated as you and I do not even own a Tesla (yet ). I do feel that this and other issues will be resolved. As previously stated all cars have issues. The more tech on a moving car, the more chances of issues. I can tell you that I back up my faith with my wallet. I am all in with Tesla. After working in this industry for over 35 years it is time for a change. My retirement account is growing as is my confidence that Tesla will make every effort to not only permanently fix the drivetrain issues, but hopefully satisfy the doubts that some of you have in this regard.
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cwerdna said: ?

... the chances of requiring at least 1 drive unit replacement before 100K miles is pretty high, given the noise problem still keeps happening and some folks have been thru multiple replacements for noise.
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It's too simple to call a drive unit replacement a major issue. Drive unit, in terms of an ICE, is a huge deal and a major part. In case of the Model S it is just much simpler to replace the entire unit, which is relatively small and easy to replace as a unit. It would be much more work for a service to take it apart. So when they replace it, it doesn't mean the entire unit has gone bad.

The next thing that is confusing is the noise issue. On a typical ICE drive unit any kind of noise is an indication of a mechanical problem that causes more wear and can cause a catastrophic failure. In case of the Model S drive unit, it's a electric motor (which is a very very simple part) and the inverter which is pretty much an electric "amplifier". The buzzing noise and the balloon squeal is similar to the hum of a transformer. It's 'cosmetic'. It is not a mechanical problem that, when not taken care of, causes more mechanical issues. It's not like a lose gear that will eventually break out and destroy the entire transmission.

The confusing part is really the term 'drive unit' as it suggests the heart and soul of the car as gone bad and needs to be replace. That's definitely not the case with the vast majority of reports here. The heart and soul of the Model S is the battery and it appears to perform amazingly well. The battery on an EV is the make or break part. Electric motors and power electronics are simple and cheap. Tesla has done a phenomenal job on creating a battery that withstands the daily use and abuse in any climate and accelerating a really heavy car like a sports car.

The 12 Volt battery issue is very unfortunate. Tesla dropped the ball on double checking the quality on those. They got a bad batch, let it slip and it unfortunately forces the entire car to shut down. It's a great example how a small part can bring a whole system down, even when all other parts are top quality and 100% reliable. Again, yes Tesla needs to up their quality control, but it's not a fundamental issue and an easy fix to owners.

I totally agree, there are many little things that quality control should have caught, but how much is an EV worth that has none of the small issues but the same battery as the Leaf that we all know ages at a rather scary rate?
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I just had the MS in for one year service at 15k miles. SC replaced the DU ("proactive replacement") with a rebuilt unit. I was getting a clunk in stop and go driving. Now there's a buzzing/whine on acceleration that goes away as speed increases. That's new and I'm keeping an ear on it. Still my '05 MBE500 4matic, bought new, blew the transfer case at 38K miles -a $6k repair if it wasn't still under warranty. Of course it did it again at 108K mi, just after my extended warranty ran out. My vocal unhappiness at least got the dealer to pick up parts but I paid over $3k for labor...So as far as I'm concerned - Tesla still has a ways to go to beat that sorry record...
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David99 said: ?

It's too simple to call a drive unit replacement a major issue. Drive unit, in terms of an ICE, is a huge deal and a major part. In case of the Model S it is just much simpler to replace the entire unit, which is relatively small and easy to replace as a unit. It would be much more work for a service to take it apart. So when they replace it, it doesn't mean the entire unit has gone bad.
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Ok. So, what happens when someone is out of warranty?

David99 said: ?

The next thing that is confusing is the noise issue. On a typical ICE drive unit any kind of noise is an indication of a mechanical problem that causes more wear and can cause a catastrophic failure. In case of the Model S drive unit, it's a electric motor (which is a very very simple part) and the inverter which is pretty much an electric "amplifier". The buzzing noise and the balloon squeal is similar to the hum of a transformer. It's 'cosmetic'. It is not a mechanical problem that, when not taken care of, causes more mechanical issues. It's not like a lose gear that will eventually break out and destroy the entire transmission.
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You're mixing two or more issues together. The balloon squeal noise is from the contactors. Tesla states that's normal: Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues - Page 230.

There are definitely multiple different symptoms of drive unit noise (and likely different causes), for which Tesla has either replaced the DU or done other work to remedy. I don't have time to point to all the recordings here but here are Edmunds:
Ominous Noise - 2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test

Replacement: Ominous Noise Fixed - 2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test

I've definitely heard others that are different.

Edmunds unfortunately didn't post recordings of the milling noise (Tesla's term) at Drive Unit IV: The Milling - 2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test.

Drive unit problems explanation by Elon - Page 5 enumerated some symptoms.

Drive unit problems explanation by Elon - Page 9 mentioned gearbox.
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But did it fail within the life of ownership; be that 1yr, 3yrs, 8yrs, etc.

Without a warranty, the car would be next to worthless 2nd hand.
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AmpedRealtor said: ?

This is why I will never, ever, buy a Tesla product unless it's been market-tested for at least 2 years.

Tesla has a really bad habit of using its owners as beta testers and offloading QC that should have been done by Tesla onto its customers. The reason Tesla service is so superior is because Tesla knew, very early on, that it will have to mitigate poor initial quality by offering a great service experience.
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Ca'mon Sonny. As early adopters, you and I expected that everything would not work perfectly. It is my impression that TM is working hard to minimize service issues. The MS is a cutting edge vehicle whose owners will occasionally experience frustrations associated with new technology. TM could spend more time testing each new innovation, the P85D could have been tested for another year prior to delivery, and the Model X could be delivered in mid 2016, but the customer base would not be happy. I'd rather be part of the feedback loop that will speed the development cycle than wait for more lengthy Beta testing.

I can respect your desire to wait for the bugs to be worked out. It's easy. Wait for a new model to be introduced and then wait for two years to insure that the bugs are removed. I'm not sure how you'll handle software updates that might have errors - wait another two years?
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David99 said: ?

It's too simple to call a drive unit replacement a major issue. Drive unit, in terms of an ICE, is a huge deal and a major part. In case of the Model S it is just much simpler to replace the entire unit, which is relatively small and easy to replace as a unit. It would be much more work for a service to take it apart. So when they replace it, it doesn't mean the entire unit has gone bad.

The next thing that is confusing is the noise issue. On a typical ICE drive unit any kind of noise is an indication of a mechanical problem that causes more wear and can cause a catastrophic failure. In case of the Model S drive unit, it's a electric motor (which is a very very simple part) and the inverter which is pretty much an electric "amplifier". The buzzing noise and the balloon squeal is similar to the hum of a transformer. It's 'cosmetic'. It is not a mechanical problem that, when not taken care of, causes more mechanical issues. It's not like a lose gear that will eventually break out and destroy the entire transmission.
....
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Did you forget about the gearbox, located between the motor and the inverter? It is a major part of the drive unit also and has bearings and gears and provides the differential function for the axle shafts--those are not electrical parts, but are very, very simple mechanical components.

The milling or whine or clunking sounds are just different stages as the bearings wear and open up their internal clearance, likely due to axial loads. The next sound after the clunk would be whatever noise a failed gearbox makes--probably like a transmission that you indicated.

It's not trivial to make a single speed gearbox with differential capable to handle very large torques.
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MarkR said: ?

Ca'mon Sonny. As early adopters, you and I expected that everything would not work perfectly. It is my impression that TM is working hard to minimize service issues. The MS is a cutting edge vehicle whose owners will occasionally experience frustrations associated with new technology. TM could spend more time testing each new innovation, the P85D could have been tested for another year prior to delivery, and the Model X could be delivered in mid 2016, but the customer base would not be happy. I'd rather be part of the feedback loop that will speed the development cycle than wait for more lengthy Beta testing.

I can respect your desire to wait for the bugs to be worked out. It's easy. Wait for a new model to be introduced and then wait for two years to insure that the bugs are removed. I'm not sure how you'll handle software updates that might have errors - wait another two years?
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See, this is another one of my favorite arguments around here. Believe me, I know we all volunteered to be lab-rats driving around 4-wheel iPads. What's more, those first 10k owners were the REALLY crazy ones. Hell, the first 500 should have gotten their own Insane mode button.

But the facts stand, 3rd production year, six figure price tag, service visits every single month for issues that the 1st production year had, plus new ones. At this point, the quality is unreasonable to overlook. They don't get a pass on this, they cant get a pass on this. And if you keep taking the early adopter argument, you are doing a disservice to every single owner that comes after you.

It isn't difficult to come out and say, "Hey, as part of regular warrantied maintenance, if you hear these sounds or feel this vibration, we need to do this, this, and this". Cut the crap of having the owner decide what is and is not normal, most of us don't have time for that anyway.

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gavine said: ?

Lifetime watts/mile is not necessarily an indication of how the car was driven. Running the heater jacks that number way up.
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Very true, although watts/mile sans HVAC is probably deadly accurate to predict drive-unit stress.

And if they can somehow take into account watts devoted to HVAC (they can, and I'll bet you lunch they do), the resulting adjusted number with the corresponding mileage is going to be spot-on when graphed with drive-unit replacement.

Here, in the drive-unit replacement poll, is there a graph with mileage at replacement, avg watts/mile, and location of owner (to estimate HVAC usage very roughly)? I know that wont give us 100% accuracy, but I think there would be a trend that we would find interesting.

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cwerdna said: ?

Unfortunately, there are a vocal few who believe that it's "best" to not report them to NHTSA for whatever reason (e.g. "protecting" Tesla, car coming to a stop while in motion "isn't" a "safety "defect" despite tens of millions of other cars having been recalled for "stalling", "losing power", turning off unexpectedly, etc. and that continue to do so, etc.) and discourage others from doing so by making by making such arguments.

It even says to report them to both in the manual (I quoted it at When to report NHTSA issues? - Page 8).

I currently have no more time nor motivation to argue w/people who won't change their mind. At least some here agree with me and I've observed a few here have seen the light. On other car forums I'm on, there is NOT the same backlash about reporting clear safety defects to NHTSA and others there frequently call for reporting them, if the driver legitimately encountered them, preferably after reasonable attempts have been made to resolve the issue, when possible.
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Yeah, you and I both got raked over the coals by the fanbois when I mentioned that it was a very serious issue to have the P85D with creep mode on and in reverse, not stop immediately when you pressed on the brakes. Granted, it was only in that state for 48-72 hours, but at least one guy lost some landscaping due to the issue. Thankfully no one lost a bike or a kid.

These things need to be aired and they need to be discussed.
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My MS is in Fremont, getting the DU replaced. It suddenly developed a very loud whining noise, that would get higher in frequency as the speed increased. At driveway speeds, it drew stares. Clearly, deer and pedestrians did not have to be worried that I might sneak up on them. The funny thing was I had 1070 KNX in LA on the AM radio, when I was down in the LA area. When I got into the central valley, I accidentally selected this station frequency, and WOW, I put the windows down, cranked up the sound, and short of the shifting common to ICE transmissions, it was the closest to a big block V* sound coming from my Tesla. Clearly, it's an electrical problem, which I suspect is the inverter. Remembering that a 3 phase AC induction controller incorporates 3 separate driver sections to drive each phase independently, as well as varying frequency and amplitude. I would love to get my hands on one... Their inverter (motor controller) as shown on Youtube newer factory tour shows, it's quite something. I remember a few years ago of a Electric Vehicle enthusiast who designed his own 3 phase AC induction controller (I think it was a newer VW), and it was very impressive. Last I saw, he blogged that he was switching jobs, and that Tesla hired him.

Clunking, Whining, Grinding is generally the complaints. What are you experiencing?
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supratachophobia said: ?

Very true, although watts/mile sans HVAC is probably deadly accurate to predict drive-unit stress.
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Not sure I agree with this still. How about drivers who set their regen at low or don't use regen as much (late braking)? Also, how about drivers who go from reverse to drive when backing out of the driveway without stopping completely. That has to put heavy strain on the bearings and gears. If you do that every day but have a low WH/mile number, you're going to still have wear without the number reflecting it. I always stop completely before changing directions. I would argue that Tesla should use the hill-hold system to stop the car before allowing the direction change....allow the roll-back in reverse and neutral but brake as soon as "drive" is selected.
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> The milling or whine or clunking sounds are just different stages as the bearings wear and open up their internal clearance, likely due to axial loads. [kennybobby]

The milling sound ceases instantly as you cross the power/regen point using the accelerator. This points to an inverter source not mechanical. I rather like mine - sort of a space ship sound.
--
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wycolo said: ?

> The milling or whine or clunking sounds are just different stages as the bearings wear and open up their internal clearance, likely due to axial loads. [kennybobby]

The milling sound ceases instantly as you cross the power/regen point using the accelerator. This points to an inverter source not mechanical. I rather like mine - sort of a space ship sound.
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Or it could be the reversal of axial load as the torque goes from the motor driving the gears, to the gears being back-driven by the wheels. The inverter is still working all the time in a 4-quadrant controller.
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gavine said: ?

Not sure I agree with this still. How about drivers who set their regen at low or don't use regen as much (late braking)? Also, how about drivers who go from reverse to drive when backing out of the driveway without stopping completely. That has to put heavy strain on the bearings and gears. If you do that every day but have a low WH/mile number, you're going to still have wear without the number reflecting it. I always stop completely before changing directions. I would argue that Tesla should use the hill-hold system to stop the car before allowing the direction change....allow the roll-back in reverse and neutral but brake as soon as "drive" is selected.
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Ehhh, I see what you are saying and it's got merits of a good argument. Buy you haven't convinced me that it could be stressed *that* much under the conditions you described..... Yet.
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Mine was replaced for gear slap. My symptoms were fairly obvious, slight clunk upon slow acceleration or abrupt coast. Tech did the recording for engineering verifying gear slap. The teeth of the gear unit had enough slop that you could hear around town in normal driving. Usually didn't hear anything on hard acceleration. They replace everything as a single unit, pretty sure refurbished mother and transmission but no way to verify. I don't care as long as they are covered by the 8 yr warranty AND it doesn't go bad again.

After about two weeks I have another drive sound clunk but different from the first. Tech did the recording for engineering again. Not sure what is wrong now. The wife feels the whine is louder than before but I'm pretty deaf so I can't tell.

Does this help with some of the symptoms causing replacement?

Cal
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supratachophobia said: ?

So now I want lifetime watts/mile and mileage graphed against DU replacement. I think that will be very enlightening.
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My first DU replacement was within the first 500 miles driven. The 2nd replacement for the same problem took place at approximately 8,500 miles. The third replacement was done again for the same issue at approximately 18,000 miles. I drive conservatively, I never "punch it".

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MarkR said: ?

Ca'mon Sonny. As early adopters, you and I expected that everything would not work perfectly. It is my impression that TM is working hard to minimize service issues. The MS is a cutting edge vehicle whose owners will occasionally experience frustrations associated with new technology. TM could spend more time testing each new innovation, the P85D could have been tested for another year prior to delivery, and the Model X could be delivered in mid 2016, but the customer base would not be happy. I'd rather be part of the feedback loop that will speed the development cycle than wait for more lengthy Beta testing.

I can respect your desire to wait for the bugs to be worked out. It's easy. Wait for a new model to be introduced and then wait for two years to insure that the bugs are removed. I'm not sure how you'll handle software updates that might have errors - wait another two years?
Click to expand...

When I bought the car, yes, I understood that I would be an early adopter and that I would be helping Tesla work out some issues. It was actually exciting for me to be part of this process of "changing the world" and helping Tesla succeed. What did I expect to happen? I'm not entirely sure. Early in my ownership experience I had some problems with pano roof seals, bubbles in my alcantara, trunk liner defects, etc. Those were fit and finish issues that I expected, and I didn't mind those at all. But the multiple drive unit replacements have left me with a nagging worry in the back of my mind. The battery and drive unit, I felt, were at the heart of Tesla's core competencies and I honestly was not anticipating having issues with those components. So far the battery has been great and no issues. The only recurring problem has been with the DU and the worry I have about it failing or developing a noise after the warranty has expired.

All of my other issues are fixed 100%. But the DU thing has been an ongoing thing for Tesla over the last 2 years and it keeps happening to me. I'm knocking on wood right now that my last (third) DU replacement was the charm, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about the long term. At least with the DU aspect, this isn't something I was expecting as an early adopter. I deal with the problem graciously at service and am thankful that Tesla is so quick to swap the part and get me out the door quickly. But the nagging in the back of my mind is still there and I don't know what to do with it.
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AmpedRealtor said: ?

My first DU replacement was within the first 500 miles driven. The 2nd replacement for the same problem took place at approximately 8,500 miles. The third replacement was done again for the same issue at approximately 18,000 miles. I drive conservatively, I never "punch it".

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When I bought the car, yes, I understood that I would be an early adopter and that I would be helping Tesla work out some issues. It was actually exciting for me to be part of this process of "changing the world" and helping Tesla succeed. What did I expect to happen? I'm not entirely sure. Early in my ownership experience I had some problems with pano roof seals, bubbles in my alcantara, trunk liner defects, etc. Those were fit and finish issues that I expected, and I didn't mind those at all. But the multiple drive unit replacements have left me with a nagging worry in the back of my mind. The battery and drive unit, I felt, were at the heart of Tesla's core competencies and I honestly was not anticipating having issues with those components. So far the battery has been great and no issues. The only recurring problem has been with the DU and the worry I have about it failing or developing a noise after the warranty has expired.

All of my other issues are fixed 100%. But the DU thing has been an ongoing thing for Tesla over the last 2 years and it keeps happening to me. I'm knocking on wood right now that my last (third) DU replacement was the charm, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about the long term. At least with the DU aspect, this isn't something I was expecting as an early adopter. I deal with the problem graciously at service and am thankful that Tesla is so quick to swap the part and get me out the door quickly. But the nagging in the back of my mind is still there and I don't know what to do with it.
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This is EXACTLY what I'm starting to find hard to push away now, that nagging feeling in the back of my mind. Yes, I understood there would be issues and compromises to make, but the quantity and variability of problems seem to be mounding up. The possible DU issue is just a bale of straw on the camel now.

The extended warranty for me is now a must if there is to be any hope in keeping this car on the road. Have you come to the same conclusion or is your ownership timeline a known quantity? I did come up with a theory that DU failure may be eliminated or drastically stretched out in the AWD models since the stress is split between two components. If/when you/I/we trade up, there could be that to look forward to.
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My biggest concern is that the same issues keep coming back, so I'm concerned that Tesla still does not know the root cause of the problems or does not plan on addressing them in the current generation.

Here are my replacements:

06-Jan-2014 - 8079 Miles - ASY,P-TRAIN,MECH,COMPLETE,RC,REMAN,MDL S (1025276-00-F)
06-Aug-2014 - 23449 Miles - ASY,P-TRAIN,MECH,COMPLETE,RC,REMAN,MDL S (1025276-00-A)
08-Oct-2014 - 29913 Miles - ASY,P-TRAIN,MECH,COMPLETE,RC,REMAN,MDL S (1025276-00-A)
20-Mar-2015 - 42931 Miles - DRIVE UNIT - BASE WITH SHIMS - REMANUFACTURED (1025276-00-K)

I'm up to almost 45,000 miles and already the latest replacement is starting to hum above 70 mph.

The first replacement was for the humming above 60 mph. Second was for the buzzing at low RPM. Third was for humming again (this time it was above 70 mph). Fourth was for buzzing again. Now fifth will be for humming again over 70 mph. In each case, (except for the 3rd replacement), the drive unit was perfectly silent as expected after getting the drive unit replaced. The longest I've had a drive unit before needing a replacement is 15k miles. As far as threshold for replacement, there have been a few times for the above replacements where I reported the issue but the technician didn't hear it when the car was in for service but it would inevitably get worse to the point where they agreed to replace it.

Clearly there have been different revisions. I'm not sure why my first replacement was a -F and then there were two -A's followed by a -K. Clearly Tesla is doing something to try to fix things. Unfortunately the same issues just keep returning.

FWIW, I've never had the "clunk" issue that the shims were supposed to address. I don't drive particularly aggressively. Sure, I will floor it every once in a while, but that's rare. My lifetime wh/m is around 330 and that's mostly because of winter. My summertime average is around 309 wh/m.
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David99 said: ?

I have not heard of a drive unit fail on any Model S owner yet. .... The drive unit problems discussed widely are all non-critical and the service will fix them. Elon even later added the drive unit to the full warranty.
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jerry33 said: ?

Yes. David is correct.
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Incorrect. The second drive unit on my Sig P85 became undrivable; the vehicle refused to go back into gear from park after a "safely" message followed by immediate deceleration to a stop. Tesla flatbed towed it back to the service center to be replaced. I know I'm not the first to report it on TMC.
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supratachophobia said: ?

This is EXACTLY what I'm starting to find hard to push away now, that nagging feeling in the back of my mind. Yes, I understood there would be issues and compromises to make, but the quantity and variability of problems seem to be mounding up. The possible DU issue is just a bale of straw on the camel now.

The extended warranty for me is now a must if there is to be any hope in keeping this car on the road. Have you come to the same conclusion or is your ownership timeline a known quantity? I did come up with a theory that DU failure may be eliminated or drastically stretched out in the AWD models since the stress is split between two components. If/when you/I/we trade up, there could be that to look forward to.
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I can only speak based upon my own experience, but if someone is contemplating the purchase of this car and plans on driving it more than 50,000 miles, I'd strongly urge that buyer to consider the extended warranty. Anyone who is interested in buying a used Model S with a decent number of miles should probably look for one that comes has the extended warranty. I'm hardly a proponent of extended warranties, but in this case I'd say it's money well spent.
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I've bought a number of high end cars, and several of them had issues. It happens. But a major concern is that all this warranty service - frequent swapping out of an expensive part or subsystem like the drive motor - will be eating up the profits that Tesla needs to build up the company. I suppose they get the drive motor from a supplier. Probably by now they have someone from the home Tesla office living at the supplier until they get the problem straight (at least that is what Toyota and Mercedes would do). BTW, I have had to have the A/C compressor on my LEAF replaced twice, and also service to fix clunking sound on start & stop. And yes, I agree with getting the extended warranty on the Tesla. Lots of things to go wrong with all the cutting edge stuff.
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Tesla builds the drive trains in house.
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AmpedRealtor said: ?

I can only speak based upon my own experience, but if someone is contemplating the purchase of this car and plans on driving it more than 50,000 miles, I'd strongly urge that buyer to consider the extended warranty. Anyone who is interested in buying a used Model S with a decent number of miles should probably look for one that comes has the extended warranty. I'm hardly a proponent of extended warranties, but in this case I'd say it's money well spent.
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The irony here is that I always thought we'd be having battery issues. But so far the battery, it's management system, range, etc. is rock solid. Go figure.

And yes, extended warranty is mandatory for the mileage we are putting on these things.
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supratachophobia said: ?

The irony here is that I always thought we'd be having battery issues. But so far the battery, it's management system, range, etc. is rock solid. Go figure.
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The one thing I learned from our 2001 and 2004 Prius is that a large battery is a non-issue. (The 12V battery is another story.) I've had no drive-train problems in ~43K miles, but I did get the extended warranty. I don't have any hypothesis to explain why some cars--and I believe it's just a few--have had multiple drive train problems.
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I have been following forums for all of my cars since 1997. I have gotten rid of three cars based on being scared by the few bad experiences that show-up on the forums. There are always people reporting problems on all car forums. I have decided that I am not going to let these stories scare me anymore. I love this car too much to be brought down. I'm not going to let it happen. I'm going to drive the car and enjoy it. The vast majority are very reliable. My car is almost a year old, it has 15K miles and hasn't been in for service at all....not once.

I'm convinced that the way people drive has a lot to do with frequent failures. I'm not sure what it is that's causing multiple failures with these few Teslas, but as I eluded-to earlier, it could be something as simple as not stopping completely before switch from reverse to drive. I have driven with people who don't do that so is it possible that something similar to that could be the root of the problem?

My last car had issues with front suspension lower control arms on some cars. There were people who had them replaced 3, 4, 5 times. Mine never had a problem. I thought, well maybe those people have a habit of stopping hard to where the car's momentum keeps trying to go-forward and then the car settles back. If you've stopped hard like that, you'll know what I mean. Could it be that people who stop like that habitually was causing the LCA's to go bad so frequently? Perhaps. I don't stop like that. I let-off of the brake before it happens and perhaps that's why my LCA's didn't need to be replaced.

These are not excuses for quality, but the point is that in my opinion, these multiple failures on one car must have something to do with driving habits.
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gavine said: ?

I'm convinced that the way people drive has a lot to do with frequent failures. I'm not sure what it is that's causing multiple failures with these few Teslas, but as I eluded-to earlier, it could be something as simple as not stopping completely before switch from reverse to drive. I have driven with people who don't do that so is it possible that something similar to that could be the root of the problem?
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I doubt it. My first DU was replaced within the first 500 miles, the rest were at 8,000-10,000 mile intervals. I haven't changed the way that I drive, and I always stop fully before changing from Reverse to Driver and vice versa.
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gavine said: ?

These are not excuses for quality, but the point is that in my opinion, these multiple failures on one car must have something to do with driving habits.
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Being someone who has had over 20 service visits in 20 months of ownership, I couldn't disagree with you more. Many of the issues I've had have no relation to how the car is driven. I don't want to get into a long list here, but things like wipers, chargers, battery heaters, cooling fans, and the variety of creaks and sounds that have come from various parts of my car have nothing to do with my driving. The only thing that I *do* do is that I drive a lot. 25k miles per year. Much of that is highway driving, so if by driving habits you mean driving on the highway a lot, then perhaps my driving habits are contributing to my issues, but if you're implying that I'm somehow abusing my car or driving it "rough", you couldn't be further from the truth. I take very good care of my car.

That said, I think a bigger contributor to number of issues found (and relevant to this thread) is the threshold at which someone considers something a problem. While I've had several issues that have actually caused alerts and errors on the car and needed parts to be replaced to ensure my car doesn't break down, several of the issues were related to how much you're willing to live with a certain hum or sound or noise that some part of the car makes. I'll admit I'm probably picky in this respect just because any unexpected sound really bugs the heck out of me while I'm driving. I've done several long road trips with drive units making the humming sound and it really drives me crazy. Some others might not notice it or not be as bothered with it, so not bother asking to get it fixed. I suspect this has something to do with it.
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pgiralt said: ?

Being someone who has had over 20 service visits in 20 months of ownership, I couldn't disagree with you more. Many of the issues I've had have no relation to how the car is driven. I don't want to get into a long list here, but things like wipers, chargers, battery heaters, cooling fans, and the variety of creaks and sounds that have come from various parts of my car have nothing to do with my driving. The only thing that I *do* do is that I drive a lot. 25k miles per year. Much of that is highway driving, so if by driving habits you mean driving on the highway a lot, then perhaps my driving habits are contributing to my issues, but if you're implying that I'm somehow abusing my car or driving it "rough", you couldn't be further from the truth. I take very good care of my car.

That said, I think a bigger contributor to number of issues found (and relevant to this thread) is the threshold at which someone considers something a problem. While I've had several issues that have actually caused alerts and errors on the car and needed parts to be replaced to ensure my car doesn't break down, several of the issues were related to how much you're willing to live with a certain hum or sound or noise that some part of the car makes. I'll admit I'm probably picky in this respect just because any unexpected sound really bugs the heck out of me while I'm driving. I've done several long road trips with drive units making the humming sound and it really drives me crazy. Some others might not notice it or not be as bothered with it, so not bother asking to get it fixed. I suspect this has something to do with it.
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Again, this is exactly where I'm at. But try 20 visits in less than half that time. There is definitely a level of putting up with a problem. Squeaks, rattles, trim pieces are all things we should not have to deal with in the first place, but the SC takes care of them as they should and I'm satisfied with that (note: not necessarily happy about the problem, but satisfied it's been taken care of).

The major mechanical problems, like fans, chargers, and drive-units may or may not be related to how the car is driven. But a very important thing to realize is that a driver should not pay 100k+ for a car and then be able to easily "out-drive" it. I do not think you should be pulling the ABS fuse and doing smoky burn-outs, but if you decide to get on the freeway and utilize the ability to get up to 60mph in under 4 seconds, then there shouldn't be any issue with that; even if you do it everyday. They advertise the car as being capable to an extent, and if it is turning out it isn't, that is very frustrating. Hence the direction this thread has taken.

**Now rightly so, the car has the ability to limit it's performance, for example the "limp mode" people talk about. I'm ok with this since it means Tesla is trying to prevent excessive wear and tear. And it seems the implementation of this is very good. When I've needed the car to perform, it's never told me no. What I am suspecting is that they would have to excessively nerf the car to prevent DU problems on RWD vehicles to the point where it would not perform as advertised the majority of the time. As an owner, this is what I would have a problem with as would everyone else.

Again, as kennybobby stated, if the DU problems can be traced to a worn part, then I say they either re-design it (unlikely and more expensive) or make that a regular maintenance item. That way, a customer never has to deal with it failing and they rarely have to deal with the symptoms. Although, I will add that for ampedrealtor, the latter would not have necessarily saved him that first DU.

I raised this question in the infamous 691HP thread. I submit the AWD eliminates/mitigates the conditions of stress that would lead to a pre-mature DU failure (possibly pushing it out past the 8yr mark depending on driving style). It would do this by a 50/50 split in stress on 85D drivetrain, and XX% reduction to rear motor on P85D with the slack being picked up by the front motor. The two things that would prove this would be DU unit failure rates on AWD and 4-wheel dyno on P85D; neither of which we have BTW.
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AB4EJ said: ?

I've bought a number of high end cars, and several of them had issues. It happens.
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Price and how high end a car is has little correlation w/reliability. There are a ton of "high end" cars w/not very good reliability, partly because that automaker and/or that model is notorious for not very good reliability.

There are plenty of not-"high end" cars that are very reliable.

If one didn't look at reliability ratings and bought a new car, and one bought 100 new Hondas/Acuras or Toyotas/Lexuses and bought say 100 BMW, Mercedes or Audi, of comparable price range, I'd bet you some big $ that the those 100 Hondas/Acuras or Toyota/Lexuses would need fewer repairs within warranty and within the first say 10 years than the latter set.

AB4EJ said: ?

But a major concern is that all this warranty service - frequent swapping out of an expensive part or subsystem like the drive motor - will be eating up the profits that Tesla needs to build up the company.
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Yep. Tesla absolutely needs to get this under control.
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First symptoms av 13 k km, this video was made after 42 k km, passing 56 k km and the noise is worse. Have been granted a new DU, was supposed to happen in august, delayed til september and is now delayed with no spesific date.. I am embarrassed driving down the street, and concerned by the lack of DUs available, and the feeling that they havent solved the problem.
You are welcomed to listen to my clunk and milling sounds.
DU noise- Tesla Model S 85 - produced in january 2014 - YouTube
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The clunking sounds like the motor mounts are loose. What ever the problem is its bad and needs to be fixed.

OddB said: ?

First symptoms av 13 k km, this video was made after 42 k km, passing 56 k km and the noise is worse. Have been granted a new DU, was supposed to happen in august, delayed til september and is now delayed with no spesific date.. I am embarrassed driving down the street, and concerned by the lack of DUs available, and the feeling that they havent solved the problem.
You are welcomed to listen to my clunk and milling sounds.
DU noise- Tesla Model S 85 - produced in january 2014 - YouTube
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davidc18 said: ?

The clunking sounds like the motor mounts are loose. What ever the problem is its bad and needs to be fixed.
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Mine made the same noise and they replaced the entire drive unit. They supposedly there's a common suspension component that can also make the same noise, but they checked everything and isolated it to the drive unit. I waited a few months and eventually had it replaced, which resolved the issue for a time.
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Does anyone know what a "fluttering" sound might be when you take your foot off the accelerator and the regen kicks in? I'm also wondering if anyone has gotten any humming in their steering wheel with sort of a moaning sound? I initially thought it was road noise, but it definitely is not. Could both of these be DU related?
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Is your car a D model?
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Yes..it's a Jul '15 85D.
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Gizmotoy said: ?

Mine made the same noise and they replaced the entire drive unit. They supposedly there's a common suspension component that can also make the same noise, but they checked everything and isolated it to the drive unit. I waited a few months and eventually had it replaced, which resolved the issue for a time.
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They are waiting for DUs. .. short supply it seems. ...
Now I get the Clunk after 10-15 seconds standing at a red light. Like the DU suddenly falls back on place...
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wycolo said: ?

> The milling or whine or clunking sounds are just different stages as the bearings wear and open up their internal clearance, likely due to axial loads. [kennybobby]

The milling sound ceases instantly as you cross the power/regen point using the accelerator. This points to an inverter source not mechanical. I rather like mine - sort of a space ship sound.
--
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kennybobby said: ?

Or it could be the reversal of axial load as the torque goes from the motor driving the gears, to the gears being back-driven by the wheels. The inverter is still working all the time in a 4-quadrant controller.
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I'm going with the mechanical explanation. Presumably there is no electrical activity at all in the inverter when it's in Neutral. If you creep up a hill, then put it in Neutral, the noise continues even as the car glides to a stop and starts back down the hill. In this case, the car is driving the motor, but using the same gear faces that are used when the motor drives the car forward. Do the same experiment in reverse, no noise.

So the axial load explanation works for me. It also could be the gear surfaces becoming scarred in some way. I've heard a theory from someone at the SC that an electrical current path develops from the motor shaft thru the gears to ground - that could explain damage to the gears. It could also damage bearings, but would be more difficult to explain damaging one bearing but not the other unless the damage only occurs under high load.
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Thats it, can't take it anymore, I am embarrassed to drive around in parking lots and my neighborhood after being asked, "whats that noise". I will often speed up about a 1/4 mile from my house so I can coast into the garage without fear of the neighbors hearing the $90,000 circular saw driving down the street. Here is a video i shot this morning, going to see what the SC guys think...

My Movie - YouTube
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I've had the milling/saw noise for a few months now. I would say mine is louder than those videos. Took it in about 2 months ago they said it needs to be replaced but part is on backorder. I call every few weeks and "still on back order" no ETA. Getting very frustrated. I've been putting off the service to have them do it at the same time, since they won't pick up my car (live too far away).
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Sogorman said: ?

Thats it, can't take it anymore, I am embarrassed to drive around in parking lots and my neighborhood after being asked, "whats that noise". I will often speed up about a 1/4 mile from my house so I can coast into the garage without fear of the neighbors hearing the $90,000 circular saw driving down the street. Here is a video i shot this morning, going to see what the SC guys think...

My Movie - YouTube
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Sounds like a Fein Multimaster.
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Sogorman said: ?

Thats it, can't take it anymore, I am embarrassed to drive around in parking lots and my neighborhood after being asked, "whats that noise". I will often speed up about a 1/4 mile from my house so I can coast into the garage without fear of the neighbors hearing the $90,000 circular saw driving down the street. Here is a video i shot this morning, going to see what the SC guys think...

My Movie - YouTube
Click to expand...

You are not alone -Stealth mode ?? Not

DU noise- Tesla Model S 85 - 16 500 km later - YouTube

DU noise- Tesla Model S 85 - 16 500 km later - YouTube
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Update; spoke to the Scottsdale SC and they are going to take care of my DU. Once again Tesla has stepped up and taken care of its customers which is appreciated. I can't think of any other manufacturer where you can send a YouTube clip to on a Sunday and get a call Monday morning saying that they have a replacement part sitting on the shelf and to come on by whenever it's convenient for a replacement out of goodwill.

Tesla may may be late on some of their timelines or promises (AP coming in a few months) but at the end of the day they step up and take care of their user base.
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My milling noise seems similar, if not a bit louder than the one from Sogorman's video (comparing milling noise vs. tower noise ratio). The Service Center took a look at it and said to wait and that there is an upcoming repair procedure:

Is it really true that there is an updated repair that's already formally planned and in the works? Or is my Service Center just brushing me off and hoping I go away?

I wouldn't mind waiting two or three months if a correct and final repair is being planned, but we all know Tesla's definition of "upcoming". And I don't want to wait a year.
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So my drive unit on my P85 is being replaced. I have 32K miles on the car and the problem I was having is excessive noise when driving above 75 mph. I've been doing some research on the drive unit problems and it is difficult to get a good idea with no official word from Tesla regarding what is causing so many failures. It is concerning as far as the number of failures and really that they are happening with not an excessive amount of miles on the car.

In general, there are two general categories problems: abject failures and excessive noise. The abject failures are relatively rare compared to the noise issues and also seem to be more prevalent on cars that were manufactured in the early production runs so this maybe an issue that Tesla has fixed in current production models. The excessive noise issues can be further subdivided into three types: clunk when the car is switching from propulsion to regen, milling noise even at low speeds, and vibration type noise only seen at highway speeds. I think that these three types of noise failures have different causes and I don't think that these causes are necessarily related. My big question is has Tesla identified the specific causes of these items and have they already implemented solutions to them in models coming off of the production line today. Since we have no official word from Tesla, we don't really know.

My drive unit replacement has not soured me on my decision to buy a Model S. It is still the best car I've ever owned. Tesla service provided their usual excellent service and only took 2 days to do the replacement and dropped off a loaner during the repair, and the replacement was covered under warrantee. So really it was no big deal. The real issue for me becomes can I recommend to a friend that they buy a Model S give the uncertainty of the status of the drive units. The answer to this is still yes because Tesla warrantees both the battery pack and drive unit for 8 years and infinite miles. Also, this warrantee is transferred to any new owner. So if a failure occurs, it is really not a big deal to the owner.

I would however like some official word from Tesla about what is causing these issues, if the issues have been fixed, and if the new drive unit being placed in my car is still prone to having these issues since it may affect how long I decide to keep the car and also may affect resale value for a car approaching 8 years of age.
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kishdude said: ?

I would however like some official word from Tesla about what is causing these issues, if the issues have been fixed, and if the new drive unit being placed in my car is still prone to having these issues since it may affect how long I decide to keep the car and also may affect resale value for a car approaching 8 years of age.
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During the most recent earnings call, Elon and JB both said that the DUs produced in the last few months are of "excellent" quality and that the bad DUs were largely early units. Then there is the case of TMC member Islandbayy who just received a brand-new, fresh from the factory Q revision DU (the latest that we know of) that has developed a milling type of noise shortly after he left the service center. I have informally polled members of our local Tesla group, very few have had DU swaps. My local Service Manager said that there has not been a single owner stranded in Arizona from an outright DU failure.
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AmpedRealtor said: ?

During the most recent earnings call, Elon and JB both said that the DUs produced in the last few months are of "excellent" quality and that the bad DUs were largely early units. Then there is the case of TMC member Islandbayy who just received a brand-new, fresh from the factory Q revision DU (the latest that we know of) that has developed a milling type of noise shortly after he left the service center. I have informally polled members of our local Tesla group, very few have had DU swaps. My local Service Manager said that there has not been a single owner stranded in Arizona from an outright DU failure.
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This is good to know. I'm wondering if the P85 has more failures compared to the 85 or 60. Also, I was one of the first cars delivered in AZ, but do not drive my car "hard" so I'm wondering also if this may be a use related phenomenon that can show up with more miles. The interesting thing for me was that this is an issue that was slowly building up over a period of months and only showed up at highway speeds. Initially I thought, that the road I was driving on was bad, and then I thought that my tires were wearing. But it was only after I had the tires replaced and the sound didn't change that I did some research on these forums and realized that it may be the drive unit. The noise really sounds like you have a tire that is unbalanced and not something you would think would be coming from the drive unit. But Telsa was very responsive and I'm happy that it is fixed.
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kishdude said: ?

This is good to know. I'm wondering if the P85 has more failures compared to the 85 or 60. Also, I was one of the first cars delivered in AZ, but do not drive my car "hard" so I'm wondering also if this may be a use related phenomenon that can show up with more miles. The interesting thing for me was that this is an issue that was slowly building up over a period of months and only showed up at highway speeds. Initially I thought, that the road I was driving on was bad, and then I thought that my tires were wearing. But it was only after I had the tires replaced and the sound didn't change that I did some research on these forums and realized that it may be the drive unit. The noise really sounds like you have a tire that is unbalanced and not something you would think would be coming from the drive unit. But Telsa was very responsive and I'm happy that it is fixed.
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Sounds like you had the highway hum. All of my DUs were ultimately replaced for that reason, although the last one started to develop either a milling noise or inverter buzz prior to replacement. The incidents of highway hum have all but disappeared, so I think that is one issue that Tesla has resolved. Now we have to see if they can successfully kill the milling noise.
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David99 said: ?

I'm with AmpedRealtor and the others who are a little disappointed with the quality of some aspects of the car. Overall the quality is actually pretty good, but there are several issues that should not be in a production car. None of them are critical, though and every single one them has been taken serious by the service centers. The reason I'm not as upset as others here is because Tesla created something that wasn't there before and no one else wanted to do. They made the best EV that surpasses every other EV. It's the only EV that meets my requirements and it has surpassed every requirement and expectation I had. Tesla deserves credit for making something like that happen and mass produce it. The importance of that by far outweighs the issues I see with the car right now. Tesla has changed the car industry forever. It's the beginning of the end for big oil and the change over to sustainable energy. Getting free service to fix the small issues is an inconvenience I'm willing to accept thinking about the big picture.
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@David99,
I agree with you on many points, Tesla has produced a product that I and many others believe in.
I also agree Tesla has had some teething issues but the bigger picture will support their plans.
The world is changing and the EV world is a disruptive mover, and will not go away.
As the song says, 'It's Been A Long Time Coming'
My current job is reminiscent of how the buggy whip maker must have felt when the transportation world embraced gasoline. My previous plant was closed because our employer switched from hydraulic power steering pumps and steering gears units, to electric units.
Now, along comes the EV world, Tesla style, and with the design of a Tesla, my current job is being drastically changed, again!
Our plant makes the engines, transmissions, and axles for thousands of cars and trucks, daily.
While old technology closed my previous plant, it looks like what with the new technology coming, it will again or severely disrupt it.
My parent company has made efforts to produce EV's in the past, and it was easy to see that these were the usual 'token' federal models. 32 MPH for a full battery, Ha!
Beautiful cars but still a gas car made over. Tesla didn't fall into this mind set. They started fresh and built from a strict EV view point. Sort of like how cell phones didn't follow the land line phone model.
The current cell phone is a personal assistant, information assistant, GPS, banker and a phone, among allot of other things.
So, Tesla might not be perfect ((and I do sweat the things I read on the forums)) Tesla is everything I could ask of a first generation EV builder. Yes, I do have some "wishes" and some druthers, but mostly I worry more about how some of Tesla's initial promises have been changed. The mechanics of the car, I'm sure will be ironed out, but the new way of selling, maintaining the car and even the customer goodwill policy's as Tesla touted them and sold them, will be the true test of durability.
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Can anyone describe this milling noise to me better? My 5xxx vin car makes a whining noise at pretty much any speed above 25mph that sounds like a noisy differential. It makes it under power or regen and the only way to get rid of it is to modulate the throttle so that the motor is neither under power or regen, so basically coasting. It's not a grinding but it's a noise none the less. My 21,xxx car just made the balloon squeal at wide open throttle but made no part throttle noise.
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Many of the rear drive units were manufactured with inadequate grease which will eventually lead to a clunk or whining noise under acceleration, leading to premature wear of the drive unit. It depends on how long the drive unit has been making the noise or having symptoms for if it warrants a replacement or not, also depends on if the unit has been replaced before, if it has then they typically discourage a second replacement but it does depend on the noise level of the unit.

If no prior replacement they will typically drop the unit and replace with a unit that has re manufactured shims
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I have a whine that is there whenever the motor being used. So everytime I press the accelerator I can hear it in the background. I called Tesla Service (Hong Kong) and they said bring it in and we'll listen to it. When can they schedule a fix? May 2016!!! 5 months away.
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85D Dec '15 delivery - 1000 miles and the drive has gone from silent to noticeable whine (I assume front).
This sounds exactly like a straight spline gear noise and you can even hear it chirping on light throttle openings.

The noise is annoying aleady especially around town, just a question of how bad does it have to get before it requires replacement.
Disappointed to say the least, especially as my SC is a 150 mile round trip, and I specifically noted Elon's statement that current DUs were showing great reliablity before proceeding with the purchase.

Seems Elon may have been premature in claiming DU problems no longer an issue.
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Mike K said: ?

Can anyone describe this milling noise to me better? My 5xxx vin car makes a whining noise at pretty much any speed above 25mph that sounds like a noisy differential. It makes it under power or regen and the only way to get rid of it is to modulate the throttle so that the motor is neither under power or regen, so basically coasting. It's not a grinding but it's a noise none the less. My 21,xxx car just made the balloon squeal at wide open throttle but made no part throttle noise.
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Sounds like an excellent description of the noise we are hearing in ours
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thegruf said: ?

85D Dec '15 delivery - 1000 miles and the drive has gone from silent to noticeable whine (I assume front).
This sounds exactly like a straight spline gear noise and you can even hear it chirping on light throttle openings.

The noise is annoying aleady especially around town, just a question of how bad does it have to get before it requires replacement.
Disappointed to say the least, especially as my SC is a 150 mile round trip, and I specifically noted Elon's statement that current DUs were showing great reliablity before proceeding with the purchase.

Seems Elon may have been premature in claiming DU problems no longer an issue.
Click to expand...

I wanted to believe but knew better. I do think that based on the feedback from this forum, that my original hypothesis is on the right track and that dual-motor is a way for Tesla to either eliminate DU failure or stretch out the timeline so that it doesn't happen as soon (by reducing stress on a single DU).
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How about considering that the AWD was planned long before any DU noises appeared ?
...or two motors, twice the risk of failure ?
While contemplating any further conspiracy theories you can listen to my RWD DU before I got it replaced

DU noise- Tesla Model S 85 - 16 500 km later - YouTube
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OddB said: ?

How about considering that the AWD was planned long before any DU noises appeared ???
...or two motors, twice the risk of failure ???
While contemplating any further conspiracy theories you can listen to my RWD DU before I got it replaced ??

DU noise- Tesla Model S 85 - 16 500 km later - YouTube
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Possibly, but I think their timetable was moved up once they started realizing just how many DU's were failing in the wild. My tin-foil hat says that originally, S was supposed to be RWD until X and/or the 5yr scheduled S revamp.
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supratachophobia said: ?

Possibly, but I think their timetable was moved up once they started realizing just how many DU's were failing in the wild. My tin-foil hat says that originally, S was supposed to be RWD until X and/or the 5yr scheduled S revamp.
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MY tinfoil hat says that it was smart to introduce the AWD on the S since it share the same platform..
When I ordered my car in sep 13 I anticipated some kind of teething problems from a fresh company.
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OddB said: ?

MY tinfoil hat says that it was smart to introduce the AWD on the S since it share the same platform..
When I ordered my car in sep 13 I anticipated some kind of teething problems from a fresh company.
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19 revisions (and counting) of your drive unit is not teething.....
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OddB said: ?

MY tinfoil hat says that it was smart to introduce the AWD on the S since it share the same platform..
When I ordered my car in sep 13 I anticipated some kind of teething problems from a fresh company.
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Re: "fresh company", per About Tesla | Tesla Motors, Tesla was founded in 2003 and they launched the Roadster in 2008.
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Here's another way to look at it.

With an entirely new design, there are always going to be a lot of problems. Many will be fixed quickly. Some will take much longer to diagnose. A few will take a really long time to diagnose.

Numerous issues (such as the mirrors corroding, or the galvanic corrosion design mistake in the frunk area, or the massive noise caused by the A/C compressor rubbing against other parts) were fixed within the first year.
The 12v battery failed due to three separate problems: (1) a poor specification for the batteries, (2) a bad batch of batteries, (3) the system putting a bad load profile on the batteries; all three have been fixed now (though people still occassionally get dud batteries).
The electrical-contactor arcing buzz in the battery pack was diagnosed relatively soon after that and fixed.
The "highway hum" took a long time to diagnose but finally appears to have been fixed.
The "clunk" may or may not have been diagnosed yet.
The "milling" at lower speeds has not been fixed yet.

It worries us because the remaining undiagnosed problems are potentially quite serious. But they have been identifiying and eliminating design flaws sequentially, and as long as they keep engineers working on this, they'll probably get them all fixed before the extended warranty period is out.
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Had an S60 while our front du was being replaced and I was impressed that it was completely silent. The 60 was much more enjoyable to drive than the 70D, due to the complete lack of motor noise. Ours is now back, and although the replacement DU is quieter, it is far from silent.
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teslamotorclub

Thứ Sáu, 27 tháng 1, 2017

Drive Unit failure symptoms and thresholds for replacement part 1

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