Oct 8, 2015
Quant As someone who admires Elon Musk hugely, and would actually take a real bullet for him, I was quite disappointed by his some of his latest comments about Apple.
1. Why say bad stuff about your former employees? How will current employees feel about that ? I cannot believe that this is wise, respectful, or helpful in any way for recruiting or retaining great engineers. Calling Apple the graveyard for Tesla engineers who could not make it at Tesla! Were ALL Apple hires actually fired by Tesla? If not, could there be lawsuit here by one of the former Tesla engineers ? You think those humans who went to work at Apple have zero friends at Tesla who care about them and their friendship ? Come on Elon....think for heaven's sake !! Is all this money and net worth going to your head and your ego?
Apple has money and muscle, they could be upset by what Musk just said and offer $10 million signing bonus to his absolute best engineers and a ton of stock options, and even a guaranteed 5 year contract and blow $ 50 million without batting an eye?
What will Elon Musk then do ? Want to play chess with Apple's cash hoard ?
2. Trying to call out the Apple Watch, the new large iPad and the stylus etc as examples of no real innovation is something that I agree with......but given they are both Silicon Valley companies, and Apple is nowhere near taking any business from Tesla from any of their current products, in terms of revenues, that was totally unnecessary , in my opinion.
It will piss off a lot of people at Apple, and they will now be more determined.
Why go stoke people who have deep pockets ? What do you gain ? What exactly is the risk- reward calculation here? I'd say that was definitely NOT smart, for a strategic guy, who is also a very shrewd businessman, Elon, sorry but that was not thought through !
I think Elon does need a vacation. I think he is super stressed out and it shows ...with the crying and the rest of this stuff.... in the other recent interviews !!
I strongly suggest Tesla FOCUS on their work!!! We are your investors! Elon Musk you have fiduciary duty to us !
1. Get the Model X production issues solved .
2. Get the Gigafactory up and running and launch the energy storage business.
3. Unveil the Model X and Y
and take the HIGH ROAD !!!
I totally agree with everything else that Elon said, for example, Apple can't exactly outsource the production of a car to a supplier like Foxconn. I think Apppe will fail if they try to manufacture a car!
I believe Tesla has a huge opportunity to be a huge company and this kind of idiocy is just not something I expected from someone of Elon's intellectual and strategic caliber ....or wisdom !�
Oct 8, 2015
ecarfan Suggest you provide a link to what Musk said so others can read it and decide for themselves what to make of it.�
Oct 8, 2015
MikeC Elon Musk says that Apple only hires Tesla's worst engineers - Yahoo Finance
I found it reassuring to know that the Apple poaching Tesla employees story was just FUD. I love my iPhone, but my Tesla fanboiism far exceeds my Apple fanboiism.�
Oct 8, 2015
Nevek Just a little friendly competition. Healthy.�
Oct 8, 2015
evme This kind of response is not strange for Musk, he made a similar responses in the past. That is Musk being fed up with the media response. He gave a similar response about Richard Branson's Virgin Galactic despite both of them being friends. The reason was because the clueless media keeps trying to make it sound like SpaceX and Virgin Galactic were competitors despite anyone who knows a thing or two realizes that what Branson is building can't get you to orbit. It is a fun awesome attraction, and I think even Musk signed up for it. But to compare it to SpaceX was just pure ignorance.
I think Musk knows full well what Apple is doing, the media does not. And they throw their speculation in his face which pisses him off.
Simply put I think the media is speculating way ahead of themselves. Personally I don't think Apple is building what most of the media thinks they are building.�
Oct 8, 2015
SBenson Totally love it.
"They have hired people we�ve fired. We always jokingly call Apple the 'Tesla Graveyard.' If you don�t make it at Tesla, you go work at Apple. I�m not kidding," Musk says.
(maybe it�s just me but) I will totally applaud my top boss saying something like that.�
Oct 8, 2015
Krugerrand 1. I imagine he's said worse right to their faces. He's a tough boss from all accounts and has never suffered any sort of ego problems. While his comments may not be 100% accurate (perhaps a couple employees left of their own accord), a saying like that comes at least from a modicum of truth.
Apple already apparently offers a significant signing bonus plus (if I recall correctly) 60% higher salary. Sometimes money isn't everything and we know that Elon doesn't do what he does for the money, so he's quite likely to attract (and want) people who believe in the greater good as he does.
2. Really no different than comments he made about BMW in one of the ERs, which caused a bunch of giggling. Yeah, not nice and all that but it's real and I'll always take real and honest every day even if it hurts. On the other hand, there are times when he could sink a ship and doesn't. For instance the company that made the struts for the Falcon 9 that caused it to explode...the company totally screwed that up with none of the struts passing the tests the company said they would. That cost MILLIONS of dollars for more than just SpaceX and for a part that probably doesn't cost more than a few hundred. Elon chose specifically to not name that company publically and by doing so did them a huge favor. I also don't mind him showing his emotions and shedding some tears, it shows he's got a heart and the importance to him of what he's doing.
What I'd like is to hear the whole interview, preferably in English, because I want to make sure that his quote wasn't taken out of context as has happened so many times before. I'd also want to be able to hear his voice and judge it for frustration, stress and other emotions, which can cause people to say things they otherwise might choose not to. But hey, if it lights a fire under Apple's butt and they really are making an EV then let them be irked by Elon's comments and come out swinging with a super BEV - that's to all our benefits.�
Oct 8, 2015
Quant I agree with the above as well.
But, that is NOT the point !
Saying such bad things about your former engineers is never helpful ! I've had many execs I worked with who went to work for competitors and they were my friends too! If my CEO said stuff like that about my former friends I would not be happy. Yes, we are all hired help, but why insult people in public ? Elon himself said that Apple paid $200 K signing bonuses to some engineers...I doubt Apple did that AFTER that engineer was fired by Tesla!
If Apple indeed was NOT building a car ( which I don't think they are ) , why say this kind of stuff to piss them off ? So, Apple can take $20 - $ 30 Billion of their cash stuck in Europe and create a JV with BMW or Mercedes ?
Why not take the high road ? Where is the risk- reward calculation in saying stuff like that when Apple has like $ 150 Billion in cash and you are burning over $ billion a year and not generating any cash yet ?
Just simply in terms of business strategy and game theory applied to the human aspect in all of this, I believe this was NOT smart and will NOT achieve anything positive for Tesla, its employees, customers or investors !
Maybe someone can explain how this is positive ?�
Oct 8, 2015
stopcrazypp I don't see how Elon would get into any legal trouble or scare away current employees with the comment quoted. For one, he did not name any specific employee, and his comment was said in a way that he was not being completely serious, even mentioning that inside Tesla they joke about it. Even if you took it seriously, all it implies is that Tesla is a tougher work environment than Apple. It doesn't imply the employee is unfit for employment overall (that is when legal trouble happens, esp. if a specific employee is named).�
Oct 8, 2015
Krugerrand Where do you make the connection that these former engineers where 'execs'? And what does one employee being friends with a former employee have to do with 'business'? You sound as if a CEO is viewed as an employee's friend and thus needs to protect feelings where former employees (who were fired) are concerned.
Your doubt about Apple offering more money to fired Tesla employees is interesting. So Elon is lying AND purposely trying to make the other team angry? Meh. That's not how he thinks. But he is an excellent strategist and game player. He's several steps ahead of everyone else and has shown that time and again.
You're obviously a much nicer, kinder person but I think you've blurred some employee, former employee and CEO lines.�
Oct 8, 2015
Quant I did not say that the former Tesla engineers were executives.
As for Apple hiring Telsa engineers Elon is the one who said a few months ago that Apple was offering $200 K bonuses and doubling their salaries. I doubt Apple offered that to an engineer who was fired from Tesla. It just does not compute !�
Oct 8, 2015
rjcbox I don't see anything wrong with what Musk said, business is business�
Oct 8, 2015
Quant I do think if Apple does try to build an EV they may try a JV with BMW or Mercedes, probably the former.
And Apple could easily drop $30 Billion cash into a JV and lock up some battery supplier contracts and lithium too !
My point is ( if as I believe APPLE is not actually looking to build an EV themselves ) , why goad them into a huge JV with BMW ? How does that help TESLA investors ??�
Oct 8, 2015
Krugerrand But you put these sentences together. Saying such bad things about your former engineers is never helpful ! I've had many execs I worked with who went to work for competitors and they were my friends too! If my CEO said stuff like that about my former friends I would not be happy.
So, you're calling him a liar. And there is no inside 'Tesla Graveyard' joke.�
Oct 8, 2015
eye.surgeon If that statement from Musk surprises you , you don't know Musk very well, he's known to be a jerk of a boss. I respect his accomplishments but he's definitely a graduate of the Steve Job's school of dictatorial bosses.
And you'd really take an actual bullet for some guy you don't even know because you like the car? This isn't a cult, you can relax a little.�
Oct 8, 2015
drinkerofkoolaid If Apple hired 100 Tesla Motors employees, all of whom were cleaning staff, bloggers would ignore the job title, and focus on the company names.
No, Apple could not drop $30 billion to lock up the lithium ion battery supply chain.
Elon's comment helps investors because it puts Elon in charge of the narrative being discussed by journalists about the matter, unless Apple is willing to comment on the matter, which Apple most likely won't. Also, it shuts up the journalists who are yapping about Apple's rumored vehicle. In all likelihood, this might help Apple, since Apple's stock is probably being hurt by rumors about an "Apple Car" since it is creating unnecessary uncertainty about how Apple will invest its cash. All of these rumors put into question Apple's long term focus and intentions.�
Oct 8, 2015
Quant
Huh ? About Tesla engineers vs, execs I worked with, it's a human dimension thing. You are taking 1+ 1 and making it 3 . I can't help that !
And, saying " it does not compute " or, it does not add up, is totally NOT the same thing as calling someone a liar ! I would never do that!
You can defend Elon as much as you want, I am fine with it totally, because I totally admire him immensely!
However, when someone is not being wise, I call it as I see it. I do not want to see Elon or Tesla knock in a 'own goal '.
Hey, I am a TSLA investor too ...just like you...in this forum,...and I'm here for the long haul.
I put Elon Musk as the number 1 person in the world who I admire the most. Having said that, I just think what he said was unwise from an HR standpoint or human game theory standpoint.
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Oct 8, 2015
Krugerrand And I'm out.�
Oct 8, 2015
DaveT I have to admit, Elon's quote did lack a bit of tact. But I love his confidence. So it all balances out for me. Also, I think there was some humor in it as well and shouldn't be taken completely seriously.
Here's the full interview:
interview link�
Oct 8, 2015
Quant Yes I would! And that's my choice. FYI, I am 100 agnostic and rational. In a hypothetical situation like that, I just would do I t because the world has more to gain from Elon being alive, vs. me. Same would apply if it was a young child. Just math and economic and other value potential over time of my worth vs. someone like Elon, or a young child, as another different example for rational decision making.
Anyways, whatever you want to me call is fine.�
Oct 8, 2015
FredTMC thx for the link!
for me, this obvious solution to the Apple challenges is for Google to set up and make an investment in Tesla. A couple billion dollars would do it. They'd be getting a great price these days. it's "Pirates of Silicon Valley part Deux"�
Oct 8, 2015
RobStark How does this harm Tesla investors? Tesla is not competing against other EVs but the 88M ICEv streaming out of factories every year.
If Tim Cook decides to invest $20B or $40B largely or partially on an insult by Elon Musk then Tim Cook is a moron. And I don't think Tim Cook is a moron.
If Apple enters the BEV space with two feet it validates the BEV market. Dominating a market with one serious supplier is not viable long term. If Apple is producing 100's of thousands of BEVs then Apple becomes an indirect collaborator. It makes suppliers join the space. Suppliers are not likely to make large investments in BEV specific parts if their only possible volume buyer is Tesla. More kids joining engineering programs relevant to BEV engineering and moving to Northern California etc etc etc.�
Oct 8, 2015
perkiset Meglomaniacle rant. Musk == Jobs. They have to be the most confident people in the world to do what they do.
So in that context, meh. But in a human context, call Vanna and buy a clue. As much as I love both Tesla and Apple, the sun does not rise or set on either of them. I don't think I'd want to have sat down and have dinner with either of them. As idealogues and bellweathers they are brilliant and necessary. As truthsayers, they leave a lot to be desired.�
Oct 8, 2015
CHG-ON You would really take a real bullet for him? Not worth it.�
Oct 8, 2015
ecarfan Dave, thanks for the link. I loved that interview. Classic Elon, just speaking his mind. This is my favorite quote, regarding German car. companies:
"The senior management is too old-school. They�re not accepting the future yet. Germany needs to move to the next level of technology. The country was a pioneer in internal combustion technology. But if you cling to the past, you won�t get to the future. It�s time to start building a fundamentally new generation of cars."�
Oct 9, 2015
StephenM Thanks for the link to the full interview. When put into full context the jab isn't as bad as the link-bait articles would suggest. It's classic Elon. Don't mind it a bit.�
Oct 9, 2015
Auzie If the cash was the secret sauce ingredient that makes for the disruption in the auto industry, we would have had much better cars many many years ago. Apple having cash does not easily translate into Apple being successful in icar endeavour, whatever icar endeavour means.
I see few obstacles to Apple endeavours in this space, although the obstacles are not insurmountable:
Apple is not as hungry for success as the Tesla start up was - is there enough drive to push into a difficult space which is not Apple's core capability? Apple can safely plod along and collect cash by doing what it does best. Someone fighting for survival fights much harder than someone who will be ok in any case. The one fighting harder becomes a better fighter if they survive...
Apple is developing icar capability along their main lucrative business as a side endeavour. Focus on a peripheral capability is not the same as a 100% focus on a single core capability.
If Apple does not own icar supply chain and manufacturing, it does not own the icar making business. I see potential Apple - BMW JV unlikely due to remote incompatible business cultures. I find it more likely that Apple could buy out some smaller car maker. Tesla could be an ideal acquisition target for Apple if it were for sale.
On the subject of Elon's words on former employees, the way I read it the dig was aimed at Apple rather than at former employees. The way the dig at Apple came out, former employees got to be a collateral damage. The only way to never make a mistake with words is to never speak, so let's cut him some slack.�
Oct 9, 2015
schonelucht I disagree. The promise of EVs is that they are harder to develop but easier to manufacture than ICEs. It could very well be that at some point, the manufacturing of a car becomes more or less a commodity that you outsource to the Foxconns of this world. With the real value remaining in the IP on auto-driving, brand loyalty, battery technology, network effects from scale (car-sharing models), etc...�
Oct 9, 2015
Auzie Someone must take care of car making including supply chain issues. The caretaker inherently owns the car making business as any other arrangement would not work for the caretaker. Why own all the risk and hard work and let someone else eat your cake?
The main value adding for ice car makers is in developing the supply chain, the engine manufacture and the final assembly. It is similar for bev car making, we just have the battery powertrain instead of the engine. Anyone that owns these activities does not need Apple or someone else to tell them what to do or how to run their business imho.
It might be quite difficult for other businesses including Apple to compete for a piece of car making value adding pie if they choose to outsource the supply chain management, the power train development and manufacture and the assembly.�
Oct 9, 2015
schonelucht Because the main risk is not in manufacturing anymore, which is a well understood process, but in developing all the technology (battery and autodriving f.e.) to make a modern car tick. It's a model that already exists. The moment Apple is ready with their development it can go to VDL Group and they will more than happily produce their car through their NedCar subsidiary, like they currently do for BMW with the mini. Takes about 18 months for them to tool their factory.
If you truly believe that, then why invest in Tesla? The disruption Tesla stands for is just the reverse : Tesla is/was the darling of the Street not because it is an exceptional manufacturer or a perfect manager of the supply chain. On the contrary, by it's own admission : that is what they are WORST at. Tesla is valued (and presents itself as such) because of everything else. Having a sharp and focused R&D free from legacy thinking, owning worldwide charging infrastructure, innovating in the business model and customer experience (direct sales and 'free charging'), pushing the envelope in applying IP to cars (connected car, autodriving, ...), being able to command an Apple-like brand loyalty etc...�
Oct 9, 2015
Owner I think Yahoo re-quoted him and the context was a wee bit lost, because the interview's question used some salient words: "Tesla's most important engineers." With that context, its typical valley speak.
Apple just hired some of Tesla�s most important engineers. Do you have to worry about a new competitor?
Important engineers? They have hired people we�ve fired. We always jokingly call Apple the �Tesla Graveyard.� If you don�t make it at Tesla, you go work at Apple. I�m not kidding.�
Oct 9, 2015
mrdoubleb Just because Musk does not live under the Apple Reality Distortion Field, it does not make his statements unwise.�
Oct 9, 2015
Auzie I disagree that car making business can be outsourced effectively, it is too difficult and full of risks. Simpler non-value adding activities are usually outsourced. Whoever owns these difficult bits is perfectly capable of doing anything else they wish to do, they do not need a parent.
My main reasons for investing in Tesla:
1. Tesla has the first mover advantage in making electric cars. The 3 main characteristics of the first movers are present to various degrees:
Technological leadership - powertrain and car control system, over the air upgrades, etc;
Preemption of scarce assets - gigafactory and superchargers;
Switching costs and buyer choice - outstanding Tesla brand.
2. No competition. It is extremely difficult for ice car makers to transition to new technology, if possible at all. I expect it to be a slow and an unwilling transition for the ones that transition.
3. All the hype, drama, powerful unfolding story, great cause - it is addictive and it is an opportunity to be a small part of it in the right way�
Oct 9, 2015
schonelucht The reality is that it can and it happens. Today. I already gave an example. Simply denying a reality doesn't make it so.
Just earlier you were claiming the main added value for car manufacturers is developing the supply chain, manufacturing and final assembly. Yet none of the reasons you invest in Tesla have anything remotely to do with those. I think that very well proves my point.�
Oct 9, 2015
aznt1217 It would be so ironic if Tim Cook helped Tesla with supply chain haha�
Oct 9, 2015
pGo Vehicle Engineering - Contract Manufacturing
WSJ even speculated that Apple may work with Magna to contract manufacture cars.�
Oct 9, 2015
uselesslogin Well, theoretically Elon would be happy to see the world filled with electric cars even if it ends up being that he stoked Apple and they took over. In reality I would think that he really does have an ego and he wants Tesla to be the best and the leader but still he is driven by his belief that the human species should survive and things need to be done to ensure that.�
Oct 9, 2015
Drax7 ive never met an arrogant Doctor that behaves like a jerk with his patients�
Oct 9, 2015
AmpedRealtor Good for Musk! There is no innovation currently at Apple. They give us a bigger iPad with a pen - something Steve Jobs railed against - and a phone that feels like a piece of coal stuck to the back of your wrist. Innovation at Apple nowadays means offering $500 wrist bands in various different styles. Apple completely ignored what customers were actually asking for - a bigger iPad that runs a full version of Mac OS X, not unlike the Surface Pro 4 which runs a full version of Windows 10. Not only would this expand Mac OS market share, but it would give us true "pro" functionality and access to real "pro" applications like full versions of Adobe Photoshop, Illustrator, and other applications many of us use on a daily basis on our desktops. But no, Apple prefers to keep shaking the iOS cash tree until there's nothing left.
I welcome a war of words between Apple and Musk. I'm getting my popcorn... Bring it!
�
Oct 9, 2015
scaesare That's it. Perhaps Musk is more Dr. Jed Hill than Steve Jobs:
�
Oct 9, 2015
AmpedRealtor Where, exactly, does Apple plan on sourcing batteries for its mysterious "car"? There aren't enough batteries in the world to supply the types of volumes Apple is seeking... and I haven't read any articles of Apple building any gigafactories. Can Samsung and others provide enough custom batteries to Apple to satisfy what will likely be at least a few hundred thousand vehicles per year?
And how is Apple going to provide a decent range and access to a national charging network, all at a cost the average American consumer can afford? And how do they propose to sell such a vehicle, through their Apple Stores? Sure, Apple is making a car. Sure it is.�
Oct 9, 2015
LetsGoFast I found Elon's comments amusing, but I know for a fact that not all of the employees that Apple has hired from Tesla were fired. I know at least one employee who was poached whilst still in Tesla's active employ. The story I heard was that Tesla even made him a counter-offer to stay, although I don't know that particular claim to be a fact.
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Assuming that Apple is still a number of years out, there is sufficient time for them to get another battery manufacturer spooled up to build batteries of a current design or a new one. Unlike automobile companies, Apple has considerable expertise in the design, specification and manufacture of lithium ion batteries. They have a significant patent portfolio for specialized battery design, especially in the area of cell geometry, achieving higher energy densities. They were sued by A123 Batteries for poaching researchers (who worked on Fiskar), including their former CTO. A123 alleged that Apple also hired battery engineers from SiNode Systems, Samsung, Toshiba, LG, and Panasonic. To be honest, there is probably not a company in the world better positioned to compete on battery design and manufacture than Apple. Tesla obviously has a significant advantage, but if the key qualification to make an electric car is expertise in battery technology, Apple is a much more formidable rival than conventional auto manufacturers.
For what it is worth, Apple could build out a new battery factory in China and you'd not read one word about it until after they were selling the product.�
Oct 9, 2015
tftf Apple has dozens of suppliers in China that most people haven't heard about. Foxconn is maybe the only household name (and a potential manufacturing partner for Apple cars one day):
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d70fca52-2691-11e3-9dc0-00144feab7de.html#axzz3o5AZXqTR
They also have in-house expertise in this field already, shipping millions of PCs and CE devices per year:
http://www.wired.com/2015/03/apples-new-battery-tech/
How come we hear so little about all of this? Apple doesn't publicly talk about future plans until it's very close to the unveiling/on sale date, be it in new or existing sectors. Also see the two new campus projects in California capable of housing thousands of new employees. Hard to imagine these are only for PC/CE projects.
Finally, with close to $200 billion in cash, Apple has enough funds to go forward with battery supply, contract manufacturing and after-sales servicing and charging networks as they see fit once the car is ready to go into production.
As I quoted in another topic on Apple's potential entry into EVs and contract manufacturing options:
No link here since it's my own article.�
Oct 9, 2015
rallykeeper Wading in...
Love the enthusiasm from Elon. I have no issues with him critiquing Apple's ability to make a car, but he should perhaps steer clear of criticizing Apple's core competencies.
The watch comment in particular makes him sound like a nut who hangs out with Larry Page trash-talking Apple.
I liken it to the Donald Trumps of the world who hear that there's no such thing as global warming from their natural resource friends. Those ideas bounce around their Fox news-fueled echo chamber and become a sort of truth to them. They repeat it with such casualness, but they haven't really given it any analytical thought. It's just something they've heard.
Same thing seems to happen in Silicon Valley with Apple. (Both pro and anti Apple). I seriously doubt that Elon has had the time to try out an Apple watch, compare it to its competitors, understand its limitations and capabilities, etc. Moreover, while Elon is obviously a genius, he can't understand the challenges of every single product category. To his credit, he still admits he struggles to anticipate the challenges of producing a car.
Apple isn't the largest company in the world by accident, it obviously produces products that people want. The Valley's echo chamber (and Internet chat rooms) may have issues with their approach, but sales figures don't lie.
An aside...
He didn't do so here, but on the subject of software development itself, he really ought to avoid trash-talking. Tesla's pace of development is relatively abysmal (understandably due to limited resources) and their record of releasing buggy software is pretty poor (not so understandably since us early adopters are far more willing to tolerate bugs than public-at-large). We're on v6 something at this point and I have to restart my center screen 2-3 times/month to get things working again?�
Oct 9, 2015
Owner I think this somewhat minor comment is being blown up.
Although I think it is childish, trash talking other people in the valley is very common. Although I'm generally an Apple fan, I have no interest in their watch. I'm not much of a Google fan - they don't treat their gazillion contractors well.
To put this in context. I recently met someone I had not seen for probably 15-20 years. To my surprise, there was trash talk of another company in an old industry. I was quite surprised and responded with "wow you've really drank the kool aid?"
�
Oct 9, 2015
liuping Maybe they fire the employee's when they don't accept a counter offer. That would make Elon's statement technically correct.�
Oct 9, 2015
aznt1217 It's really being blown way out of proportion now. You should see the comments on these sites. It makes me lose faith in humanity. That, and in the words of Musk: "We've grown too f*ing soft."�
Oct 9, 2015
Quant I agree ! It's about time Tesla and Elon Musk fixed these issues. Apple could have a field day criticizing the buggy Tesla software but I suspect they won't.
They are not so childish.
I wish right now Elon would stay highly focused to production issues wrt Model X. It's great to have Model X demand but without production it means very little. Trash talk is cheap, delivering on your production is difficult. Stay focused and do not be distracted by doing useless press interviews .�
Oct 9, 2015
tftf Oh, one more thing: Maybe someone can explain this simple conundrum to me:
Aren't these remarks a bit of strange behavior for a man who previously invited (even begged) all major car companies to produce more EVs as soon as possible to "save the planet"?
In comes Apple with billions of $ and (apparently) starts working on an EV, hiring hundreds of experts...but all they get is trash talk instead of a 'thank you and please ship this car asap'.�
Oct 9, 2015
DriverOne I don't understand why Elon feels the need to go out insulting Apple. He's done it before, about how much cash they spend.
Suggesting that all Apple does is call Foxconn once a year and ask "build us a new iPhone" sounds so ignorant, it's hard to believe this is Musk talking. It makes me start to doubt other things he might say. After all, originally Tesla asked Lotus for a car (it didn't work out so well as they hoped).
To say Apple is a "graveyard" is ludicrous.
Palm CEO, 2006: "PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They're not going to just walk in."
Tesla CEO, 2015: ditto
Musk sounds like the incumbent, not the disrupter.
If Musk's mission is really to speed the journey to electric transportation, why diss a company strongly rumored to be joining in that journey? Why isn't he encouraging them? He's giving away patents to Apple and all, why mock if some employees go that way too?
Instead of encouraging a strong ally for EVs, he's burning bridges.
Something has happened to make Musk angry at Apple. That's a shame. Perhaps he is in fear of a future competitor, and taking jabs while they can't fight back.
Sad to watch this.�
Oct 9, 2015
anticitizen13.7 I completely agree.
There's no need to pile on, especially at a time when Apple seems to be under attack from all corners. Even much of the Apple fan base has been relentlessly critical in the post-Jobs era.�
Oct 9, 2015
MikeC C'mon, guys, the man says what's on his mind and that's always been the case. People should know by know that he won't sugarcoat his opinions to spare anyone's feelings. He was asked a specific question about poaching of engineers, which was a big FUD story and may have affected the short-term share price. He answered the question honestly from his perspective. Is anyone really suggesting that his comment is going to change the rate at which Apple develops their car? Nothing wrong with a friendly rivalry, we know he's on good terms with Jony Ive.�
Oct 9, 2015
ludicrousspeed Tesla employee on Elon Musk's Apple slam - Business Insider
This is a great read and definitely lightens up the situation.�
Oct 9, 2015
hobbes
+1
Definitely not good style. When people start talking others down, it usually means they are not happy with themselves really. I liked how Elon talked about diesel gate when he was in Europe, not making fun or pointing fingers at VW and others - this is just the opposite.
�
Oct 9, 2015
Ocelot +2.
It is fine to argue and disagree with others. But there is no need to belittle people.�
Oct 9, 2015
RobStark Definitely good style. When Elon was in Germany he was a guest in a foreign country with a different language and culture. Default position in those situations is always be super polite.
What we have here is Silicon Valley smack talk. Some people are just a little too sensitive.
I like the subtle digs between Tesla and GM too. When GM says they are building cars not just for the elite or talk about price of their batteries not being dependent on large capital expenditure or large volume sales.�
Oct 9, 2015
Krugerrand I have and I thank him to this day. Outstanding orthopedic surgeon with the bedside manner of a porcupine, the latter entirely irrelevant to his ability to do what he does best - put broken body parts back together again. I also know a number of nurses with many tales of arrogant doctors being jerks. It's not really a rare occurrence in the field (or any field) when you're dealing with the very best in the world. Besides, being a jerk doesn't mean you aren't good at your craft or can't be good at your craft or that you'll fail at your craft.�
Oct 9, 2015
SlyWombat He just tweeted that he does not hate apple... Elon Musk on Twitter:�
Oct 9, 2015
EVNow This makes absolute sense to me - this trash talking. Not that I condone such talk.
Musk is worried about Apple - not about the car they may make - but about them poaching Tesla employees. May be he (and others at Tesla) hope that calling Apple "Tesla graveyard" will prevent some employees from leaving.�
Oct 9, 2015
CALGARYARSENAL Musk says the iWatch isn't compelling yet. How about he spends less time trash talking and more time fixing his uncompelling Model X that has no utility and barely any sport?�
Oct 9, 2015
tftf How about a good PR/communications department that checks all exec interviews, especially those by given the CEO, before they go live so he doesn't have to backtrack on Twitter?
A simple countercheck is standard for all written interviews at larger companies.
It's also telling that this interview was already published at the end of September by Handelsblatt. It was online for over 10 days.
Musk apparently didn't feel to need to rectify/clarify his comments until the interview was widely circulated on the Internet by U.S. publications.
After the botched X "release" (where no outsider got a car or even all detailed X specs were released) Tesla shot itself in the foot again a few days later...�
Oct 9, 2015
anticitizen13.7 I don't know if this has already been said earlier in the thread, but I had the oddball thought that maybe Elon was deliberately trash-talking Apple in order to rile them up (extra prodding) into actually going through with EV plans. Taunting competitors, especially an group of elite Silicon Valley engineers, saying "you can't do it" will only spur them to work harder.
Elon's goal, and the stated mission of Tesla, is to accelerate the transition from ICE to EV. With many of the existing big players making halfhearted attempts, publishing vaporware slides, or actively trying to discredit EVs, perhaps it would take a shocker like Apple to keep things moving along.
Even if Tesla reaches its goal of 500,000 vehicles produced per year by the 2020 timeframe, that is a drop in the bucket. The U.S. new car market alone is around 18 MILLION cars per year.
I don't think Elon is wrong on this one.
I read every Apple Watch review I could find, and the general consensus was that Apple Watch was an interesting, but not all that compelling product. An iPhone already has a base price of $650 (full retail). If I am paying an additional $350 on top of that for an accessory, it better be something that's revolutionary.
Also, Apple's software QA has been pretty bad over the past few years. An iOS 8 bug last year caused Verizon subscribers to lose phone service. A suspected bug in iOS 9 is currently causing iPhones to randomly become unresponsive (only Home + Power will reset) and have burning hot home buttons. The only reason Apple isn't suffering more is that Android handsets are often riddled with carrier crapware, have even worse software support that is largely dependent on lazy carriers, and Windows Phone is basically irrelevant. The Apple I see today is a bit stagnant. However, boredom can produce innovation, and I'm sure that something new like an Apple Car could rejuvenate the creative spirit at Apple.�
Oct 9, 2015
MitchJi Hi,
Answer to What do Apple employees think of Elon Musk? - Quora
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Number 1 is clearly incorrect.
I think you should explain what you mean by number 2. You know that it's the best handling SUV in the world, and one of the fastest?�
Oct 9, 2015
ClownMouth At this point I'd like to see Elon come out and expand on his thoughts in regard to Apple in an interview/something-other-than-Twitter. This was the third or fourth time I can recall he's made a sideways remark about them (two I remember were at least in response to a direct question, but I think it was the most recent earnings call where he brought up Apple on his own). He's certainly proven himself many times over so he doesn't "owe" anybody anything, but if he's going to mention them and then come back and tweet some type of "clarification", do us all the favor of going all the way and explaining why this one company keeps coming to his mind.
I guess what bothers me, and of course this is just an opinion, is that Tesla's mission is hard enough as it is. There are plenty of "enemies" in the ICE manufacturers, at least one of which has shown they are willing to cheat to pretend their cars are EPA-approved. I would think Apple would be a huge ally in that (1) they are big/popular enough to move the needle on EV adoption, and (2) since they have no auto manufacturing experience, the truth is that all these people who would then consider an EV would probably also realize that Apple's isn't as good as Tesla's. What a great deal! Like us Tesla fans, these Apple fans can be very loyal, and I don't think its the Android users who are buying Tesla vehicles for the most part (again, my opinion). Whether he's speaking the truth or not, he's just making enemies of potential customers.
The last thing is that there might come a time when it's not a lack of batteries that limits Tesla's sales, but rather inexperience on the manufacturer's side of things. And while neither Apple nor Google have auto manufacturing experience, I'd assume a few billion dollars from either of them might purchase a few more robots, etc, to help speed things up. Why piss off a potential funding source/partner, however unlikely this may seem right now? Hard to understand, especially if all that's pissing him off is poaching of a few engineers.�
Oct 9, 2015
MaadP I didn't see anything wrong in Elon's statement.
May be he is little upset about Apple trying to hire Tesla engineers. Apple as all the right to tempt Tesla engineers away and Elon has all the right to voice his opinion.
Moreover I don't think Apple is a competitor to Tesla. (I wish they are - it would be healthy for EV). Even if Apple start making cars they will be light years behind Tesla no matter how many Tesla engineers they hire. Honestly I think Apple will be a competitor to Google car not Tesla. Tesla has enough cash to get the Model 3 out. I don't see anyone stopping it. Fat wallet of Apple is not going to scare Elon anymore - may be in 2008 - not anymore. I think Tesla should take their time in bringing it out and find the features (as Elon said) that will distinguish model 3 from other similar price range cars. I have no doubt he will deliver what he has promised. People who doubt him -please take another spin in your model S. If you ever wondered about game changer - this is it. I don't think Apple or any other car manufacturer will be able replicate it.
After model 3, it is anyone's guess what will happen to Tesla. It is very likely Elon will shift his attention full time to SpaceX. His goals are much loftier, I think, than others. He always wanted other bigger car companies to start making EV. In fact he said he is ready to share Tesla's designs with anyone who seriously want it. A small car company like Tesla is unlikely to make big environmental impact unless other giants join the movement. This is a man who really care for the planet and want to change how/what energy we use. I hope Apple, Google and many others join the fray. May be then, the big car manufacturers will take their head out of their armpits and get over the oil addiction.
So if Elon is a little harsh on Apple - just give him a break. I don't think he has said anything that is not in many people's mind. Apple is starting to miss SJ. I really hope they will come with something big that will help the environment.
Meanwhile lets enjoy our rides in Model S.�
Oct 10, 2015
Auzie schonelucht, sorry for the late reply with so many posts in between, time zone got in the way
I inserted (outsourcing car making) in your post, to clarify that your argument above is that the car making can be outsourced by Apple. My counterargument to that is below.
When the consequences of a product failure are not severe (costly and/or life threatening), the product manufacture can be outsourced. There is not much business risk introduced by outsourcing, the faulty product can be either replaced (Apple way) or refunded. Customers are happy with the replacement, no one suffers any damages. That works well.
When product failures can be potentially deadly and quite costly, such high business risk can not be outsourced, it inherently falls under the business that brands the product. It other words, it would be quite unwise and irresponsible of a business like Apple to compromise its brand by stamping cars made by someone else with the Apple brand.
Apple would be putting their brand at high risk if they do not fully control all the risks in their car making business. Imagine the scenario: Someone else stuffs up when making the icars, Apple foots the recall bill, faces the customers wrath and the brand damage. I do not see that working so well.
Tesla is moving towards more and more vertical integration for the purpose of mitigating the supply chain risks. It may be easier for them to control the risk in-house than to control their suppliers.
On your second point, you are correct. Before Tesla, car makers were just not my investment cup of tea, quite the opposite. There is too much business risk in car making that is not visible to investors, as evidenced by VW saga. If we compare investing in the Tesla business to investing in any ice car makers business, the downside risks would be similar - product failures with potentially deadly consequences, costly recalls, many risks invisible to investors.
My investment in Tesla is for the reasons outlined in my post up-thread: because Tesla is the first mover in a huge space with zero competition and it is a business underlined with a cause. The first mover upside potential trumps the car maker business risks in this case.�
Oct 10, 2015
wdolson While Elon Musk is known for speaking his mind, I don't really like to hear that kind of trash talk. The saying goes be careful who you step on on the way up because you'll meet them on the way down. Musk may never have need of a strategic partnership with Apple and his companies may do just fine without them, but it's not wise to tick off people from another company who are predisposed to have at least some ideals in common with you in a world where there are a whole heck of a lot of people and companies that are diametrically opposed.
As for whether Apple can successfully build a car or not, the just is out for me. They have the money, and they have a lot of supplier connections they can use. Traditional car suppliers would probably be more interested in working with Apple than Tesla because they know Apple has deep pockets and a better rep than Tesla had when they were trying to get the Roadster and Model S out the door. A car is a major departure for Apple, they have some excellent battery management technology and the computing skill to design the electronics of a car, but powertrains and power electronics are very different animals than digital electronics.
Hiring the expertise is one thing, but there is also a thing called institutional knowledge that comes about when an organization has been doing something for a while. Institutional knowledge can be a two edged sword, it can resist change when it's needed but it can also bring a wealth of expertise to a problem that isn't in books. Tesla overcame this limitation by having a maniacal leader with the vision pulling things together. The leader also has one of the broadest understanding of science and technology in the world. Because Elon knows so much about so many different areas, he was able to identify the problem areas early and find expertise to fill in gaps. He was also the glue holding it all together.
Jobs served this same role in all of Apple's major groundbreaking projects. He didn't have the scientific and engineering knowledge Elon has, but he had a vision for the project and served as the glue holding everything together. Tim Cook is a good leader, but he isn't the visionary Jobs was. Jobs isn't here to serve as the glue and unless a strong leader emerges, the Apple car project might not live up to its potential. They risk farming out too much because they don't know what is most important to keep in house and what they can trust to suppliers. We'll see what happens.
In any case, Apple would probably be a good candidate to share Tesla's supercharger network. They are a natural alliance there. However trash talking Apple could lead to bad blood and Apple going a different direction. Apple could build their own SC network, but it would be reinventing the wheel.�
Oct 10, 2015
jerry33 There were only a few things Elon could do:
1. Make a joke out of it (which is what he did).
2. Ignore the question, or waffle. (Never a good choice because of negative speculation).
3. Say that he was sorry to see them leave. (Not a good choice either because it implies that there are few or no talented engineers left.)�
Oct 10, 2015
Krugerrand So that people can dissect even more words that he's said/typed and go even more overboard? Remember that in this particular case he didn't bring up the topic of Apple, the interviewer did AND the interviewer included the following in the question: Apple is poaching your 'most important' engineers. Elon started his answer with: Most important? (As in, are you kidding me? Who said/who decided/who thinks they've been our 'most important' engineers? - Which was clearly laughable to Elon.)
The truth is that most people are replaceable, they just think they aren't. I imagine that anyone who's been fired from Tesla and gone to Apple or would leave Tesla for a higher paying position at Apple doesn't fall within Elon's definition of 'most important' no matter who they are. I also imagine the interviewer loaded that question on purpose in hopes of getting a reaction from Elon. Congrats to the interviewer for asking the question that now has the media turning itself inside out with glee and purposely forgetting the context and spirit of the question and answer.
At this point if a silly/fun/trash talk/off-the-cuff comment like this is going to turn Apple into an 'enemy' of Tesla then they were never going to be 'allies' in the first place. You need to have tougher skin than that in business. How many times have OEM executives made cutting remarks about Tesla and the media ignores it all? Answer: too many to count or remember. In terms of customers, most have short memories and what's important to them is that they get their hard-earned money's worth from a product.
Again, a company that takes these types of comments seriously is not a company that's good at 'business'. As well, Tesla is now positioned such that getting funds isn't a problem or 'the' problem.
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That's one way of looking at, but the other side is if you wanted to work with Tesla (as in partner with them with the Supercharger Network as you suggest) why would you poach engineers from said potential partner company by offering a substantial signing bonus AND significant increase in wage?! That doesn't seem to be any better of an approach than Elon making a funny in response to a loaded question. Because Apple is bigger and has more cash at hand that means they can walk all over Tesla, but Tesla can't fight back? Please. Much ado about nothing.�
Oct 10, 2015
ClownMouth Kruggerand, I actually agree with almost the entirety of your response, I just don't see the point in picking this battle. You are correct that this round of Apple comments was in response to a direct question, but that isn't always the case. The fact that people should have thicker skin (which I agree with) doesn't mean everyone does. I also belong to an Apple board where a few members said they would not buy a Tesla after hearing Musk's comments. Tesla sells every vehicle they can make, and that will continue to be the case for quite some time, so these few people don't make a difference. I get it. But why bother in the first place? Seems especially strange when compared to his recent responses to VW questions, where he took the high road at an easy target. So while he has every right to speak freely, and the world should have thicker skin, I still don't see the point, that's all.�
Oct 10, 2015
Vizir I loved his response! I dislike Apple for trying to claim that they invented everything and I believe that they are now a purely litigious lawyer firm and not a tech company.�
Oct 10, 2015
SW2Fiddler I was going to express my thoughts, but K-Rand did it for me, only more clearly and confidently than I would have.
Here's my temp avatar in solidarity.
�
Oct 10, 2015
iKhalid I'm not sure how many of you find his comment to be OK! Yeah it's "funny" and all but think about it for a moment... I personally find it immature. He shouldn't create enemies out of his former employees by making fun of them. At some point they put up with him in the past and contributed in making what Tesla is Tesla right now. If I were a Tesla employee right now, I would be pissed at making fun of my past colleagues. Just for having them fired doesn't mean they were bad. A week ago he took the release of the Model X irresponsibly and now this!�
Oct 10, 2015
MikeC 
�
Oct 10, 2015
Krugerrand But we're talking about this specific incident and thusly he did not pick the battle but he was forced to play. Could he have answered differently? Sure. But I think jerry33 nailed it. Rock and a hard place, Elon chose the rock.
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Firstly, he's a man in his 40's, immature is part of that. Every wife knows this to be a fact, but we still love you. :biggrin:�
Oct 10, 2015
wdolson True. Poaching employees is kind of a passive aggressive form of trash talk.
In any case, Elon Musk is a very emotional person and has a history of coming across strongly in the moment. I respect his accomplishments and his abilities, he is a flawed human being just like everyone else. He's quite possibly one of the most brilliant industrialists active today, but that doesn't make him a saint.�
Oct 10, 2015
stopcrazypp The interviewer asked a loaded question. Elon chose to respond in a semi-joking manner. The media chose to overreact and read in a whole bunch things into that comment (which I'm sure was exactly what the interviewer was hoping would happen by asking such a question).
If he was strong at PR (like some CEOs) he would dodge the question, but Elon is not the type to do that.�
Oct 10, 2015
EarlyAdopter My take is Elon isn't worried about competing with Apple over EV sales. If anything, he welcomes it. What he's not so welcoming of is competing with Apple over talent.�
Oct 10, 2015
bwa OP well written. I saw before-after pics of Musk 3 years ago and now, and he's aged 15 years. He needs major delegation and vacation features. But please, would someone step up to be capable to handle that?
Tesla, Space X, solar ... Great boy toys, and factories are fun to design (for science/math/engineering/biology/computer/accounting geeks like us), but he's obviously overworked. He knew he would be when he double timed it, and now it's showing he needs to seriously counteract. For his health and performance. Grow some features. Aka learn to teach, assess, manage manage delegate rest rest etc.
How about a four day work week? More work per day, almost double the day off interval. Idk. Anything, it seems.
We all need to be human, and it seems like his friends are his factories, which now is even good, but ... That's kinda like work too. I'm not recommending a radical departure. Just adjustment, growth.�
Oct 10, 2015
Causalien Apple actively poaching TSLA employee is a good thing. We are still not out of the startup mode so anyone who is not aligned should leave. Apple is doing TSLA a favor so that it cost TSLA nothing. Think about it.
Zappos had to offer employees $2000 to quit for the same effect.
Elon gets king crazy sometimes. It is absolutely necessary as a startup that has not reached escape velocity yet. Maybe when it becomes a mature legacy company like GM, Elon will need to take a back seat for someone more aware of what political correctness and social justice is. In order to not hurt the feelings of the newer pampered generation.�
Oct 10, 2015
Auzie Hmmm not so sure about that. I would not be surprised if autopilot software delays were caused by Apple poaching Tesla engineers. These delays are hurting Tesla
It is a bit difficult to get king crazy when customers are hurling insults and all sorts of righteous demands at Elon, like they must get a car and some desired features that they want in a car, when they want it - it is their birthright. Kindergarten cop role might fit Elon better, he just needs a whistle like Arnie
Who can get king crazy when faced with these cuties:
I want green color, not blue, and I want it right now!
My seats squeak, I want better seats, right now, or I'll keep screamin...
My car does 11.1 sec in 1/4 m, that's waaay too slooooow
My center console is an eye sore and there are not enough cup holders
I am very unsatisfied with many things. I have not figured out all of them yet, but I am working hard at it. If I can't figure it out on my own, one of my mates will tell me what to complain about...
And so on it goes... There is an endless list of supporters that will keep Elon's sanity in check
I think Tesla reached the escape velocity though it could still crash
The precious pampered ones will find an excuse to feel hurt no matter what
�
Oct 11, 2015
StephenM omg, Auzie, you captured the angst perfectly. Nothing is ever good enough for anyone. Hey, it's the best damned car on the planet right now, but you didn't give me autopilot when I thought you were supposed to give it to me, so who's with me on a class-action lawsuit against Elon?�
Oct 11, 2015
Newb you made my day Auzie. thanks!�
Oct 11, 2015
Auzie You're welcome
I had an arsenal of much funnier whining quotes that I could put up, but mimicking real complaints too close might hurt some real feelings
Here's how Arnie deals with kindergarteners out of control
�
Oct 11, 2015
Quant
Yeah, that was one cool post ! With a lot of truth. Thanks for taking the time to get some neat visuals....much much better than words! You da man, Auzie!
Folks sometimes can lose sight of the big picture...strategy, time T, and a multi dimensional vertically integrated playbook for at least 2 distinct businesses; transportation and energy storage.�
Oct 11, 2015
pGo My take is that the dude feels the pain when Apple hires his employees. However, I think he likes challenges and probably gets bored if life is simple.
I also feel that the talent Tesla has is unique due to the kind of business its leading and its not 1 to 1 when Tesla takes away talent from Apple. One can probably find Apple kind of talent elsewhere. But if you want to build EVs, only one company has the best people.
I expect Elon to rise to the occasion and find new ways to motivate and keep talent.�
Oct 11, 2015
electracity You can't be serious. They have surpassed Intel in CPU development. They are staffing to surpass Qualcomm in RF hardware development. Are you thinking lawyers are doing that hardware development? All of this ties to car automation, BTW.
Undoubtedly Apple has hired some Tesla people Musk didn't like. Undoubtedly Apple and other companies have former Tesla employees who possess a lot of EV knowledge. At first there was a flow of skill and knowledge from Apple to Tesla. Now there is likely a substantial outflow of knowledge and skill from Tesla to other companies. Undoubtedly Musk hates this, as any leader would.�
Oct 11, 2015
Vizir They bought the firm which does arm development. They haven't surpassed Intel in anything. In fact, thunderbolt was primarily Intel but apple took credit, just coz they are like that. An ant which stands on the shoulders of giants and claims it is the tallest.
Apple has never invented anything. They still use AMD and Intel CPU's. They just repackage existing tech into a more pleasing form-factor.�
Oct 11, 2015
Krugerrand That wouldn't make sense coming from the man who released his company's patents, and publically states over and over again that Tesla is willing to partner with the Supercharger Network et al, and travels the world meeting with high ranking politicians to discuss moving the world to sustainable energy and transport, and has country leaders visit his factory, and, and, and. Thusly showing that 'sharing' isn't something he's against even a little bit. Losing a few employees that didn't work out for whatever reason isn't even worth a second of his time let alone a strong emotion like hate.�
Oct 11, 2015
anticitizen13.7 I think it has to do with a lot more than just talent.
Elon himself has stated that working at Tesla is like being in the "special forces", and that employees are expected to put in long hours. There are plenty of very skilled and talented people out there who simply do not have the energy to work 60-70 hours/week on a sustained basis, or have family commitments that prevent them from doing this.
For the people who have to manage several kids or care for elderly relatives, I wouldn't blame them one bit for going to the Apple EV project for a 60% higher salary and large signing bonus. For Tesla employees, the hope is that stock options or stock purchased through the Employee Discount Program will eventually be worth substantially more than the salary delta and signing bonus. However, some people can't wait that long. If you have kids who will be going to college in the near future or a parent who needs assisted living, the extra salary and bonus could make a huge difference. I don't think reflects well on Tesla for the company (Elon) to be dismissive in this way towards people who left. Talented people can and do leave companies for reasons other than competency.
In fairness, the journalist did ask a provocatively worded question to Elon. He tends to say whatever comes to mind.
I would simply have responded that Tesla retains more than enough top talent to see its projects to completion, and that the company's tough time requirements aren't for everyone.�
Oct 11, 2015
wdolson The processors in laptops and desktops and portable devices like phones and tablets are related, but different animals. The portable processors are a lot simpler designs than the 8086 descendants. The x86 descendants have a lot of technology in them to make them backwardly compatible with old applications written in the 1990s and even 1980s. Part of my current job is working on some software originally written for Windows 1.0 in 1987. If the processors and Windows wasn't backward compatible to the degree it is, it would make my job a lot more difficult.
Apple has a history of just obsoleting old software, so they don't make use of the legacy features of the x86 family as much as Windows does, but all of that is still there in the processor.
The Ax family of processors for portable devices is a much more streamlined design with no frills because battery life is one of the most critical things in their environment. They are both processors, but comparing them head to head is a bit apples and oranges.
And Apple has either used off the shelf, bought, or hired someone else to develop their basic technologies. Apple puts the bulk of their effort into the industrial design of the package and the software to run the system. The guts components are pretty much the same as other similar products. Their market advantages are a software interface some people love (personally I struggle to grok MacOS, but my SO is among those who prefer it over Windows), their products are among the most reliable in their class, and they have a rabid fan base.�
Oct 11, 2015
Quant Oh really ? Maybe your definition of an invention is quite different than it is for 90 plus percent of us ?
Pray tell me what cell phones looked like before the first iPhone ? Home button ? A phone and it's screen user interface that could be changed with over the air software updates ? Pinch and zoom on a cellphone ? Desktop version web pages on the first iPhone ? App Store for cell phones ? .....
Loooking at ALL the cell phones today and comparing them to what they liked like, and worked like, BEFORE the first iPhone, I would say that we are NOT in Kansas anymore !�
Oct 11, 2015
Vizir Has Apple Really Ever Invented Anything? - 9GAG
Has Apple Really Ever Invented Anything? - YouTube
Apple Never Invented Anything - YouTube
there you will find all the places apple took "inspiration from". a home button is no invention. i can't put a button on a device which is a dedicated search button and call it an invention. thats dumb. over the air updates: Which smartphone offered the first OTA updates? - Quora (it was Nokia). pinch and zoom: The myth of pinch-to-zoom: how a confused media gave Apple something it doesnt own | The Verge . what the hell is "desktop version web pages on the first iphone?" App store was first done on Ubuntu. Might not be on a cell phone, but just changing the platform doesn't make it an invention. So, it'd appear, you don't understand the word "invent".�
Oct 11, 2015
anticitizen13.7 The answer to your questions?
Woz (Seth Rogen): "What did you do? WHAT DID YOU DO?! You can't write code. You're not an engineer. You're not a designer. You can't put a hammer to a nail. I built the circuit board! The graphical interface was stolen! From Xerox PARC! Jeff Raskin was the leader of the Mac team before you threw him off his own project! So how come 10 times in a day I read that Steve Jobs is a genius?! What do you do?"
Steve Jobs (Michael Fassbender): "I play the orchestra"
Apple didn't invent the core technologies, but the company put them together in a cohesive way that people generally find cohesive and intuitive to use.
I met Woz about 20 years ago at a convention.
He told me that Jobs was a brilliant a-hole, as well as a cheat and a theif.�
Oct 11, 2015
Vizir thank you�
Oct 11, 2015
electracity Well, then I guess then Tesla hasn't invented anything significant either. Oh well.�
Oct 11, 2015
Vizir nope! and they've open sourced their patents too! All Our Patent Are Belong To You | Tesla Motors
Elon Musk and Telsa Motors is the antithesis to Steve Jobs and Apple.�
Oct 11, 2015
stopcrazypp Apple innovated, but didn't invent that much (they do have a few valid patents, but much less than old companies like Nokia). There's a subtle but important difference from the two. Invention is coming up with something completely new. Innovation is using something in a novel way.�
Oct 11, 2015
electracity Well O.K., but you haven't told me what Tesla invented.�
Oct 11, 2015
Vizir nothing that I am aware of. and neither have I made any claims towards this.�
Oct 11, 2015
anticitizen13.7 Tesla (the company, not the man) hasn't invented anything new. I don't think it's important whether they did or not. Tesla Motors didn't pioneer unibody construction, or multi-link suspensions, or tires. Someone else invented the electric motor, the integrated circuit, the LCD, the capacitive touch screen, and the Lithium Ion battery. Over-the-air firmware updates and direct sales existed prior to Tesla Motors, albeit in the consumer electronics industry rather than the automotive industry.
Anyone with a couple billion dollars could have bought what was necessary get Tesla Motors started, but it took someone with a vision of transforming automobile transport to make it happen.
Inventors often do and should get a lot of credit, but it takes more than an inventor to transform an industry. Figuring out how all the pieces fit together into a complete model, and making it work from a business standpoint is that intangible, invaluable attribute of a great innovator. When I first learned of Tesla Motors in 2006, I thought the product idea was insane, absurd, and probably doomed. It wasn't until I saw the Model S prototype around 2009 that I though the company might have something worthwhile, and it wasn't until the Beta reveal that I thought they had a greater than 50% chance of success. Even if someone had given me 5 billion dollars in 2003 and a bunch of car tech, I really doubt that I would have had the vision to create something like Tesla. I probably would have squandered the money on fuel cells.�
Oct 11, 2015
electracity How about the guy who "invented" the wheel. Does he get credit for invention? There was probably multi-sided, non round pre-wheels on axles before the wheel.
By your definition, nothing has been invented by homo sapiens. Ancestral hominids were the true inventors.�
Oct 11, 2015
Vizir i'd like some of what you're smoking.�
Oct 11, 2015
Quant Sometimes, I think some people confuse technology or a " technical " invention " " with a product.
Technology, or a technical invention, is not a product. Discovering X Rays, or the first one to produce them, by themselves are not a product either. But, it is and was profound.
However, what some highly technology focused types do not get is that the world could not care less.
The key is what can it do for me: simply, better, quickly, at less cost, etc.... And with a very, very high tolerance.
So, depending on how you see things , it may be different for you. So, semantics are not that important, in my view.
The key is how do you change the world, change lives, change living etc, etc. , for humanity , by bringing "inventions" to them.
In this sense, I believe both Apple and Tesla will be seen, by the masses, as companies who created ( notice I am not using the term "invented") things that did not exist before ( an " invention" ? ), or in the same way as they existed for years, even though a narrow " technical invention" actually " existed" at a different level.
So, if you want to say that these 2 companies didn't really "invent" anything, from your POV, then you can take that claim and stick it wherever you want to ! Or, do what you want with it ! Nobody really gives a F.
It really won't make a difference.
Because semantics is not what matters. I would refer you to a book recommended by Elon, written by Ray Kurzweil called " How to create a mind", which discusses semantics and pattern recognition theory of the brain and how it processes stuff with respect to perception and conjures up reality. Given all the languages and thousands of dialects in the world, the brain may not actually care about, or place much value on semantics.�
Oct 11, 2015
wdolson People frequently confuse science and technology. X-rays were a scientific discovery. The x-ray machine was an technological invention.
No invention, or even scientific discovery comes out of nowhere. The personal computer pulled together lots and lots of bits and pieces of technology created by other people and other companies.
Intel introduced the first commercial microprocessor in 1971, but that was built on technology developed by other people and science discovered by many people going back more than 100 years.
The Apple I was not the first personal computer, the Mac was not the first computer with a graphical user interface, the iPad was not the first tablet computer, nor was the iPhone the first smart phone (phones were evolving in such a way different people are going to draw a different line on what exactly the first smart phone was). Apple's strength is taking emerging technologies that haven't quite clicked yet and package it in such a way the general public take notice. They have a way to appeal to at least a segment of users who find the interface intuitive and easier to use than what went before. They either took technology that others had tried to make work and failed with the public, or introduced technology that had only been available in industry to a mass market of end consumers.
There are different types of technologies, there are basic technologies like battery chemistry, building block technologies like microprocessors which need to be built into something else to be useful, and complete products. Apple's strength is complete product technologies. They buy most of their building block technologies from other companies.
Tesla and SpaceX's innovation reaches a bit deeper than Apple. For example SpaceX has advanced an existing technology for welding aluminum, enabling them to weld much larger pieces of aluminum with much stronger welds than what was capable before. This technique worked for small welds, but SpaceX can do one long weld all the way up the side of a stage of a rocket. SpaceX gave this technology to Tesla where it's used on the Model S and X. This is just one of the advancements in basic technology Elon's companies have done.
Ultimately, you can point to someone else who pioneered every bit of science and every bit of technology in everything any company has done. The companies that get known for innovation are the ones the make bigger steps forward in their technology than other companies. A large number of companies today, especially in the US are just "phoning it in" as far as advancement goes. They are just trying to squeeze a few more bucks out of old tired technologies. Other companies are pushing the boundaries of what is possible.�
Oct 12, 2015
DriverOne Actually, Apple has not used AMD CPUs ever, AFAIK. Macs use Intel, since around 2006. iOS devices use Apple-designed ("invented" :tongue: ) SoCs, such as today's very fast A9. There are hundreds of creative people working every day on iOS and OS X who would argue with your statement that they're not inventive.
"Just". Easy to say, hard to do - especially repeatedly. I think form factors count as inventions, too. Creating a successful form factor is very hard; I recall Elon saying the Model S interior turned out to be a much harder problem than he'd anticipated (a car isn't just a sum of the mechanical parts - there are human factors and interfaces too!)�
Oct 12, 2015
StephenM Exactly. You can criticize Apple for their corporate governance or ruthless business style, but to dismiss them as never having done anything new or innovative is ridiculous. Especially if you're of the camp that thinks Tesla is doing an amazing thing.�
Oct 12, 2015
wdolson The core of the Ax series of SoC do use processor cores developed by PowerVR. Most portable devices use PowerVR processors these days.
I was discussing what I did with my SO one day and I said I couldn't do work that wasn't creative. She had a difficult time wrapping her mind around the idea that writing software was creative. The writing part isn't always creative, but designing it definitely is. (I do both design and development.)
Apple is a very creative company and I agree that good form factor takes a lot of work. Apple is very good at developing devices people want to use. Apple is not strong at developing core technologies though. I'm sure somewhere along the way they have developed or advanced some basic technologies, but that isn't their strong suit.
Tesla and SpaceX on the other hand will develop new basic technologies if they can't find it out there. Elon Musk boils everything down to the basic Physics. If what he wants to do does not violate the basic laws of Physics, he pushes his people to figure out how to do it.�
Oct 13, 2015
DriverOne PowerVR supplies designs for the GPU part. The rest is Apple. (PowerVR is owned by Imagination Tech, who actually do MIPS cores, not ARM).
Software development has a large art component, I believe. There is art to it from design to class structure to code layout. It's far from purely math!�
Oct 14, 2015
mrdoubleb Completely OT, but Apple uses AMD GPUs. They only ever teased AMD CPUs to get a better deal from Intel.�
Oct 20, 2015
pGo No wonder Elon said what he said recently about Apple.
An electric motorcycle company says it was killed off by Apples poaching | The Verge�
Dec 15, 2015
Lump Elon Musk says Steve Jobs was �kind of a jerk�: Tesla founder takes another swipe at Apple following electric car rumours
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3361649/Elon-Musk-says-Steve-Jobs-kind-jerk-Tesla-founder-takes-swipe-Apple-following-electric-car-rumours.html�
Dec 15, 2015
wdolson Depending on when the party was, I wouldn't be surprised if Jobs didn't know who Musk was before Paypal became much of anything.
From what I've read about both Musk and Jobs, both men can be/were jerks sometimes. I know someone who worked with Jobs at Apple and he said he was fired a number of times for having the temerity to challenge Jobs. Then he'd get a call the next day from Jobs' assistant wondering where he was only to be told Jobs hadn't actually fired him no matter what he actually said.�
Dec 15, 2015
anticitizen13.7 I'm not surprised. Wozniak himself (met Woz at a computer nerd event many years ago) told me that Jobs had treated him badly and was abusive towards others at Apple in the 70s and 80s.
I'll give Jobs credit for being a visionary, but he was not a nice person and I don't think he cared to be a nice person.�
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